Testing Dolan’s Razor: The 2020 NBA Lottery Thread

Charles Oakley’s voodoo curse will continue to haunt the Knicks’ lottery chances.

I’m 48 years old and I’ve accomplished some things I’m proud of, but I do believe that coining the term “Dolan’s Razor” is the pinnacle of my life’s work

Sending good luck vibes….

The Kosher Unicorn!

I can get behind that moniker.

Also, if the Warriors get the no.1 pick after 1 bad season which followed 5 straight finals appearances and 3 championships, I will be physically ill.

I still don’t have a cable provider, so make this colorful for me fellas. I’m still rooting for #1, just because.

I still don’t have a cable provider, so make this colorful for me fellas. I’m still rooting for #1, just because.

Looks like they are streaming for free on the NBA app if can’t get it on tv

Ummm…when are the actual ping pong balls??

Man rowdy Zoom call

Dolan REALLY needs to make up with Charles Oakley.

Ugh.

Rose does not look happy

Wtf.

WOW

TheClashFan:
So, which two teams jumped ahead of the Knicks?

Hornets and Bulls.

#8 as always

Can’t wait for the next Ntilikina/Knox

It’s amazing how this team manages to be so fucking bad yet still manages to pick 8th or 9th every year

I’d be thrilled with Okongwu at 8, but that’ definitely a weird fit w/ Mitch

Maybe someone else grabs him and Haliburton drops

Fuck Chicago and Charlotte.

My only consolation is that two of the worst teams are getting bumped out. The whole flatter draft odds thing sure hasn’t helped the Knicks, but it should at least somewhat discourage tanking.

yeah, not so great when you are neither lucky or good…

Early Bird:
Of all the years not to move up, this is the one to do it. But god, I wish we ended up 6th for a shot at Haliburton

The Ringer’s mock draft before the lottery had Haliburton picked at 11, so there’s that.

this isn’t the end of the world….. although the lower the pick the better the knicks have to draft… but there’s probably someone good that’s going to be available…..

it does suck that we will probably miss out on hayes….. but kira lewis… okongwu and even haliburton might even be there….

i’m fine with it…. this wasn’t the draft where it was crucial to get top 3…..

Ian Begley is the first one to say it:

Ping pong balls don’t bounce New York’s way yet again. Cole Anthony, a player they’d scouted extensively during the college season, could be available to them with the 8th pick: https://twitter.com/SNYtv/status/1296612239722643460

Don’t ruin my mood by trying to cheer me up.

Leonam: The Ringer’s mock draft before the lottery had Haliburton picked at 11, so there’s that.

d-mar:
35 years without moving up in the draft

How is that even mathematically possible?

Our pick moved up in 2006. When we didn’t have it 🙂

The top 2 teams might trade out honestly.

8 seems to be our sweet spot…

I don’t know that there’s anyone at the top of this draft that brings something the Knicks desperately need to the table. Doesn’t look like it to me. I don’t necessarily think a non shooting non defending PG guard like Ball is what we need. But if there is someone, this is the time to use one of those mediocre Dallas picks to try to move up. Other than that, they should just try to find a stretch PF and/or shooting wing in the draft, via trade, or FA including possibly using this and other picks as trade assets.

Not that concerned with moving down. I’m going to bang this drum over and over again: This. Draft. Sucks. It’s like the 2013 draft where the best players were taken in the middle and the end of the first or the 2000 draft which was just bad.

I know people were banging the table for LaMelo in the last thread but in a good draft would anyone here be excited picking a player with that statistical profile playing in one of the worst professional leagues in the world?

I think Minny trades the pick. They are on the clock with Towns, so they need another star to compete. But who is that star? LaVine?

There is no way in hell Gerrson Rosas will trade the #1 pick for LaVine and the #4 pick. He’d MUCH rather have the #8 pick, Julius Randle, and the Dallas 2021 pick. Right?

Yeah I don’t think LaVine would be the one… just saying there aren’t a lot of available stars for Minny’s timeline.

jazzfunk:
It’s not the disappointment of last year – missing out on guaranteed talent.It’s just disappointment – continued, relentless disappointment.Plus Cole Anthony too.

Definitely not, I was devastated last year. I actually went out to a bar so I wouldn’t watch the lottery because I was so nervous and then ended up watching it on my phone because I couldn’t help myself. Was jumping off my stool at the bar when LAL got 4th and practically collapsed about 30 seconds later.

Yeah, but you’d much rather land the #1 and trade down for some nice future assets. There’s nothing to be gained by dropping, except if you believe that the Knicks would never be so smart to do such a thing, which is, you know, rational.

That said, nothing good can ever happen to this team, and fuck James Dolan.

Cole is our Density.

ess-dog:
Cole is our Density.

We will always sink to his level

I hope we make the 8th seed in the playoffs next year just to not have to go through this again.

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
Yeah, but you’d much rather land the #1 and trade down for some nice future assets. There’s nothing to be gained by dropping, except if you believe that the Knicks would never be so smart to do such a thing, which is, you know, rational.

That said, nothing good can ever happen to this team, and fuck James Dolan.

Alas, great prose comes of tragedy. Long live KB!

Honestly, it might be hard for teams to trade down in this draft. I bet 8, 27, and Frank gets it done with Golden State. Not that I want that, but Leon does.

You know what would be dumb? Signing a bunch of mediocre veterans to chase the #8 seed, then falling short and ending up with a late lottery pick.

Man, I hope that never happens to the Knicks

Why is Devin Vassell’s FT% such crap?

Edit: Same for Achiuwa.

Well, we are lined up for Okongwu.

Here’s how my top 10 shaked out before things went under…. there’s goi

1. Anthony Edwards
2. Onyeka Okongwu
3. Killian Hayes
4. James Wiseman
5. Kira Lewis
6. Tyrese Haliburton
7. Aaron Nesmith
8. Paul Reed
9. Jalen Smith
10. Patrick Williams / Devinn Vassell

I am expecting Okongwu and Lewis to definitely be there and they are tremendous gets…. Okongwu has fit concerns with someone like Mitch but we are not really in any position to be thinking about fit at this point… just go get talent and figure it out later….

Lewis came on late on my radar but he’s also very good and a pretty good sleeper… not in a SGA kind of way but he reminds me of ty lawson … who was very good for awhile….

For fans of Halliburton… I think he has a decent shot of being around …. i’m not as high on him but i do think he would be a pretty solid pick in the way mikal bridges would have been….

Brian Cronin:
I love how not only has Cole Anthony been the “Oh man, how Knicksy would that be?” result, but it’s even specifically been “Cole Anthony with the #8 pick,” right?

It’s a done fucking deal. I can already hear Johnnie Bryant’s interviews about how Cole Anthony reminds him of Damian Lillard and Donovan Mitchell. His father played for the Knicks, he played high school ball at Archbishop Molloy, his trainer Chris Brickley used to work for the Knicks, he was the #1 point guard prospect in 2019, and he’s just “New York tough” or whatever.

We all know Cole Anthony will be a New York Knick. The efficiency stats are not good no matter how you look at them, but here’s some of the things we can be hopeful over:

Cole Anthony had knee surgery mid season so that’s definitely reason to believe he isn’t as bad as his numbers.

He’s a shot maker from 3. Around 2.5 makes per 40 on 34.8% from deep, and the form on his jumper is NBA ready.

He got to the line around 6 times a game and converted 75% of the time. If nothing else, he can get by a guy into the teeth of a defense.

He scored lots of points for the worst Tar Heel team in maybe two decades? I don’t know.

There isn’t a lot to like about Cole Anthony. We’re essentially hoping that his knee injury and the lack of spacing severely derailed his production, and I don’t know about the spacing but I think the knee injury is pretty significant. Hopefully Johnny Bryant and Chris Brickley can make him into a stud, because he’s a Knick.

Ball
Edwards
Wiseman
Deni

Should definitely be off the board. The next group should include:

Hayes
Okongwu
Toppin
Okoro
Haliburton

Honestly, I think most bigs will drop that aren’t do-it-all center types (meaning Wiseman and Okongwu). Teams need initiators and wings.

Golden State is going to use that pick to acquire a star. They’re going to dump Harrison Wiggins’ contract for a S&T in a three-way for someone like Giannis or AD and destroy the league’s parity one last time. I don’t even know how they’d do it, but they ain’t spending $10M plus like $20M in tax on a rookie unless he’s a Zion or Doncic.

There will be a good player on the board at #8.

We’ll pick somebody other than that good player.

I’ve seen this movie before.

Dolan’s Razor comes with many blades.

The Knicks:

Maybe we should just traded KP to Kevin Booker.
I am pessimistic with Mavs picl.

Lakers game so one sided I almost watched the DNC.

When Anthony Davis is this dominant it makes me wonder why he doesn’t do it every game.

Fuck it, let’s swing for the fences one more time and draft our Kristaps Porzingis replacement to pair with Mitch in Aleksej Pokusevski, who is basically Kristaps if he played in Olympiakos B (The league giannis played in) and had eye popping assist and stocks numbers to go along with three point shooting. Also he’s 7’0 200 pounds.

http://www.tankathon.com/players/aleksej-pokusevski

Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
Fuck it, let’s swing for the fences one more time and draft our Kristaps Porzingis replacement to pair with Mitch in Aleksej Pokusevski, who is basically Kristaps if he played in Olympiakos B (The league giannis played in) and had eye popping assist and stocks numbers to go along with three point shooting. Also he’s 7’0 200 pounds.

http://www.tankathon.com/players/aleksej-pokusevski

sounds good…his J looks way more developed than Porzingis’ if that kid is only 18…

Oof, that Lillard injury was gross.

Glad the Dolan’s Razor test we just took was the 15 minute antigen test and not the one that you need to wait ten days for the results.

Would you trade our 8 and 39 for Boston’s 14, 26, and 30? That would be a lot of new faces.

I seem at times to be addicted to worry…

just from that look on rose’s face, I’ve convinced myself we’re the fools who’ll move up to either 1 or 2…

Rose didn’t hire Thibs to tank for another 5 years hoping the ping pong balls eventually fall their way and all these kids eventually reach puberty. If he did, that means he’s also stupid enough to trade the player away for nothing eventually anyway. Been there done that. lmao

I don’t like much about Rose, but he got the head coach right. That already makes him better than Mills. So there’s hope he at least understands what he should be trying to do.

I haven’t seen Ball play. So I have no opinion. But if the scouting reports are correct that he can’t shoot (and doesn’t defend), I don’t see him as an ideal fit with RJ and Robinson. I see no point in trading up for a guy that doesn’t even fit your core. We need shooting. But if Rose likes him a lot, IMO he’s going to trade up to get him because it’s likely a couple of those top picks will be available. He’s trying to add players that are going to move the chains. If he thinks Ball can do that, he’s going to get him.

If he doesn’t like Ball that much and doesn’t see something that “moves the chains” at #8 (and I doubt there’s someone like that clearly available at #8) , then imo he’s probably going to try to use that pick plus some other assets to add a player in a trade that does move the chains.

This is no longer about tanking for daydreams year after year. It’s about putting together a team of players that can actually play basketball using all means available. It’s about getting better every year using the draft, trading picks, trading players, signing free agents, adding young players, adding veterans and every combination of the above to move forward every year. The question is whether he’s competent at it.

I can see why the Timberwolves would trade their pick, but why would Golden State. They have an unsatisfying center by committee at the moment and Wiseman is good.

DRed:
I’m definitely calling the Warriors right now to offer them nothing for Wiggins and the 2nd pick

This is actually what I’ve been thinking about too
I think it’s not likely they’ll trade the pick for nothing, but I could imagine Wiggins+#2 for helpful players + #8

There really aren’t any other teams that can or would eat that Wiggins contract, and if anyone knows whether there’s a useful player inside Wiggins, it’d be Thibs.

I could imagine picking up Portis’s contract and trading Portis’s $15M + Bullock’s ~$5M + #8 for Wiggins and #2. Then at #8 the Dubs could pick Halliburton or Okongwu, who are far more likely to be useful in the next year or two than Edwards or Ball (not sure about Wiseman), and duck truly gigantic amounts of luxury tax this coming year and especially the following years or Wiggins’s contract.

No way do I move Mitch + anything else for #2 as has been suggested online. Mitch is probably a better prospect than anyone else in the draft, and costs 15% as much to boot (with less team control, but still). What do I know, but I would think that most teams in the league would rather have Mitch than Wiseman just for the certainty that he can produce and contribute to winning basketball in the NBA. Not to mention his contract.

Frank: This is actually what I’ve been thinking about too
I think it’s not likely they’ll trade the pick for nothing, but I could imagine Wiggins+#2 for helpful players + #8

There really aren’t any other teams that can or would eat that Wiggins contract, and if anyone knows whether there’s a useful player inside Wiggins, it’d be Thibs.

I could imagine picking up Portis’s contract and trading Portis’s $15M + Bullock’s ~$5M + #8 for Wiggins and #2. Then at #8 the Dubs could pick Halliburton or Okongwu, who are far more likely to be useful in the next year or two than Edwards or Ball (not sure about Wiseman), and duck truly gigantic amounts of luxury tax this coming year and especially the following years or Wiggins’s contract.

No way do I move Mitch + anything else for #2 as has been suggested online.Mitch is probably a better prospect than anyone else in the draft, and costs 15% as much to boot (with less team control, but still). What do I know, but I would think that most teams in the league would rather have Mitch than Wiseman just for the certainty that he can produce and contribute to winning basketball in the NBA. Not to mention his contract.

I actually like this idea. Alot. Mostly because it’s not a desperate move and it does not negatively effect our draft. We’d be in a position to draft well at 2 & 27, and at 8 & 27- in this draft. Unfortunately, Ball will likely be gone- so who’s the pick at 2 for us? Edwards? Wiseman? Deni? I know one thing for sure- I do NOT want Okoro, unless Vassell’s gone at 8 and Okoro is still there. Dude can’t shoot. 67% from the line? No thanks. He’s good at most other things, but does not fit this roster at all. Spacing’s already bad enough without adding another non shooter.

When I drew up my list of guys to pair with RJ Barret the top name was Andrew Wiggins.

Not terribly upset. I feel like there’s going to be very good players available at 8. Mocks are all over the place but it seems like we should be able to get one of Hayes, Avdija, Tobbin. I’m seeing Precious Achiuwa as a selection for us. Don’t know anything about him. And if everyone we love is gone, I would even be fine reaching for high floor player like Nesmith or Bey.

But boy oh boy… the specter of Cole Anthony looms incredibly large.

Apropos to nothing, if the NBA is going to continue with this lottery BS, they need to come up with a better system for generating odds. Minnesota has now gotten the #1 pick in 2 of the last 5 lotteries. This after Cleveland won 3 out of 4 lotteries. And Golden State is absolutely not the kind of team a draft lottery is designed to help.

There is no good reason for odds to be based exclusively on a team’s most recent season. Two simple changes will create a more equitable system:

1. Focus on a team’s 3 year record. If you’re trying to reward the bad teams, this is a much better indicator. It also discourages tanking because it’s much harder to manipulate your 3 year record in half a season.

2. Factor in a team’s lottery success over recent seasons. If you’ve been moving up every year, your odds go down. If you’ve been getting skipped every single year, your odds go up.

This could just be the bitter rantings of a disgruntled Knicks fan, but it seems like a much better system than what they’ve been running.

There’s just so little raw data out there that I wouldn’t be too surprised with teams leaning heavily on workouts. Bring on the 3v3, Cole…
That said, there really IS good reason to have more faith than usual in the brain trust. I reserve my right to lol until proven otherwise, but objectively this may be the best front office and coaching crew since the 90s.

“The only questions about his game are his efficiency, decision-making, shot selection, and his defense.”

That’s a Knick, baby!

I did the math on the odds of moving up since 2000 and once you rule out all the years the Knicks traded their pick, made the playoffs or finished with the worst overall record and so couldn’t move up, the odds of them not moving up in that span were about 45%.

not sure what math you did but this is off. knicks had a non-worst lottery record and their own pick in 20, 18, 17, 15, 09, 08, 05, 03 and 02 without moving up in the lottery. the chances of that are around 18%. 45% is ~the chances of failing to move up in either of 2008 or 2020 by themselves.

As I peruse the interwebs, I’m beginning to fall more and more in like with two guys: Saddiq Bey and Aaron Nesmith.

Neither seems like the ideal reward for a terrible season, but I’m very confident both of them are going to be cost-efficient NBA starters for their first two contracts.

I know the average Knicks fan is going to want us to hit a home run, but I’ll be ecstatic if the first move of the Rose era is a leadoff walk. Bey and Nesmith seem like those kind of guys.

I can see why the Timberwolves would trade their pick, but why would Golden State. They have an unsatisfying center by committee at the moment and Wiseman is good.

It has been hinted they are in “won now ” mode and willing to sacrifice the beginnings of the next rebuild for a player that will make them a more serious contender for the next 2-3 years. I have no idea how good Wiseman is now or will be, but generally it’s going to take 2-3 years for a player his age to play a major role in a championship run. The rest of their core will be done by then.

Everyone knows I like Frank and want to give him more development time because of his potentially elite defense. secondary play making, and team oriented thinking.

I’ve been harsh on Knox only because I liked Mikal Bridges so much and he was available. But I haven”t given up on Knox either. I think we may be dismissing him too readily. He had a very rough year shooting last year, but I was watching some highlights recently and he has quite a few skills on offense. It would not shock me if he took a nice jump up next year and started putting it all together. He’s a baby. He has to get stronger and has a lot to learn, but I’ve never seen any indication that he’s not willing to work as hard as he has to make progress. I think I’ve decided to become the founding and only member of the Knox fan club. I’m calling it, “It’s not over until the skinny kid sings”.

I think I’ve decided to become the founding and only member of the Knox fan club.

Z-Man is the president of the Knox fan club!

8 is good. There’s no obvious #1 or really any real order. It’s a grab-bag. Just for kicks, I took the 1st 5 rankings/mocks I found on Google:

ESPN: Edwards, Ball, Wiseman, Avdija, Okongwu, Toppin, Okoro, Haliburton, Hayes, Achiuwa
NBADraft: Edwards, Toppin, Ball, Okongwu, Avdija, Wiseman, Haliburton, Vassell, Achiuwa, Okoro
Sporting News: Toppin, Edwards, Wiseman, Ball, Bey, Okongwu, Avdija, Vassell, Okoro, Haliburton
CBS: Ball, Hayes, Haliburton, Wiseman, Edwards, Okongwu, Avdija, Williams, Toppin, Lewis
SBNation: Edwards, Ball, Okongwu, Hayes, Toppin, Avdija, Vassell, Haliburton, Maxey

What’s clear is that there’s no clarity. All that I know is that this team needs shooters badly. Free agency and trades are all on the table. RJ and Mitch are untouchable. I’m assuming that Leon is going to turn over a lot of players. Is it November yet?

PS: My 1st post since bubble games began. I can’t stomach it.

Added to queue

haiku time

twenty years I been
in Dolan’s sad wilderness
let me die now please

Haiku

Carmelo or Cole
Does it have to be our fate?
No more Anthony’s!

Expectation leads to disappointment
If you don’t expect something big, huge, and exciting then usually
Uh
I don’t know, it’s just not as, yeah

d-mar:
Haiku

Carmelo or Cole
Does it have to be our fate?
No more Anthony’s!

Love it!

But at least they have the flexibility of dumping all of the current roster after it led to them getting the #8 pick! That’s…something?

PS: My 1st post since bubble games began. I can’t stomach it.

hey GoNYGo, I hope all is well for you…just wondering, what is it about the nba restart that you don’t enjoy (other than the fact the knicks aren’t there)…

Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
Thinking more and more that if Okongwu drops to 8 you just take him or reach for Vassell. The Knicks are going to be horrendous again next year, when the draft projects to be very good, with Cade Cunningham,a PG who looks to be a bona fide star, headlining. Cunningham and Jalen Suggs are both very promising PGs–way better than, say, Kira Lewis Jr. (or Hali’s median outcome, but he’s an enigma and could be mold-breaking, like ptmilo said)–and we could shore up our defense for the next 8 years with Okongwu or Vassell. I guess you could also do this with Haliburton if he can play shooting guard in the NBA–which I think he can.

It’s emotionally difficult to go yet another year without a functional point guard setting up the offense, but when we draft #8 again next year maybe we can trade up for Cunningham when it’s actually worth it (I like LaMelo but he’s no Cade Cunningham), or just draft Jalen Suggs and get a legit 2 way PG.

Problem is, there is no way we don’t make the playoffs next year, or at least have like the 12th seed in the lottery. Thibs was not brought in to tank. So next year we’ll have like the #12-15 and Dallas’ pick, probably #20-25.

I’m not as high on Vassell as most, he seems like a player you can pick up for $5-10 mill every year. I’d rather roll the dice on Nesmith or Lewis, hoping to get a guy that’s hard to find w/o paying a huge premium.

Brian Cronin: No joke, I seriously was going to write something very similar as an alternate title (I was going to say, “Well, the ‘It is too soon to give up on Knox club,’ at least”). That’s too funny.

lol! Either way, this is a make or break year for him, Thibs will probably tighten the leash if he keeps missing and blowing defensive assignments. He’s shown that he can make plays, just not nearly consistently enough. Is it a maturity thing or something not fixable? We’ll find out this year. I’m wondering how much info will leak out of the “minicamp” that was just sanctioned for the Delete 8.

LaMelo
Wiseman
Okongwu
Edwards
Haliburton
Avdija
Hayes
Toppin

Most mocks have these guys as the top 8. I’d be happy with any of them but Hayes, and even he has at least some intrigue as a DAR clone (I don’t see it, but if he’s the guy I can hope.)

Personally I’d go for either Nesmith or Lewis, and I wouldn’t be shocked if one or both of those guys got picked before us, pushing a couple of the names above down to #8. There seems to be less reason to fear “reaching” in this draft, so even a Bey or Precious or Poku can crack the top 7. One thing to keep in mind is that all of these players have had an extra 4 months to work on their games and fill out, so what you see in film from February is not necessarily what you will get. (That goes for Cole too, sorry to say!)

Such a weird freaking year!

I think the big hope is that other franchises are dumb before we’re allowed to act dumbly

***Expectation leads to disappointment
If you don’t expect something big, huge, and exciting then usually
Uh
I don’t know, it’s just not as, yeah***

KnickerBloggerPowerRankings with a post-modern haiku for a post-modern NBA.

Z-man: I’d be reluctant to do that, at least until I see who is picked in the top 7. But it’s not a bad idea if you think the guy you want will be there at #14.

When we pick Cole Anthony, I’d much rather do it at 14 than 8. So yeah, why not?

As I said, Poku may have been lifting weights and eating shakes non-stop since Feb and may weigh 220 by October, who knows? I woudn’t take him in the lottery, but dumber things have happened.

Reports are that Devin Vassell “has some fans” in the Knicks front office. If true, then he’s an early candidate to be drafted 7th.

JK47:
Devin Vassell seems like an NBA player, let’s get him. Put him at the 2 and RJ at the 3. Both guys are good switchable defenders and have complementary skill sets on offense.

Do eeeeeeet

He’d be a fine pick but I wouldn’t be all that excited about it.

What a weird pre-draft vibe. Instead of arguing whether the one-and-done Kentucky underachiever has more upside than the Euroleague MVP, or whether the ultra-efficient, swiss-army-knife 23-year-old is a better pick than the 19-year-old who can’t drive with his right hand, we’re out here with the Swaggy P meme plastered on all our faces.

Seriously, who the fuck is the future superstar in this draft? I HAVE NO IDEA

People compare this draft to 2013, but 2013 had Giannis, Oladipo, and Gobert. Only one of them went in the high lottery, though, and needed to pass through multiple teams to live up to his potential.

The more I settle in on that 8th pick being Cole Anthony is the more I feel his season should be thrown into the “lost” category and not the “he was terrible” category. I mean, yes, he was absolutely not productive relative to other successful NBA draft picks but he maybe played 7 games healthy all season, and then he had a knee tear he was playing through or recovering from. I look at his highlights and see a more athletic version of Fred VanVleet.

That being said, I want to make crystal clear that I do not think it would be smart to pick him 8th overall. My choice there would be Aaron Nesmith, who is easily the best shooter in this draft. He’s not a perfect prospect, but the things he does well (team defending and 3 point shooting) are things every team needs more of. You can watch his film and see a guy who will be one of the best shooters of his generation, and if he develops a game off the dribble he’s going to see 3-4 all star games in his career. Out of every player in this draft, he’s the one that excites me most about developing under Johnnie Bryant.

Devin Vassell has a funny-ish release and did not shoot free throws well, so I’m concerned the 3 point shooting will not translate right away. The high release is weird but Michael Redd was a high level scorer with maybe a worse release so it’s not doomed either. There’s enough there defensively and off the dribble to squint and see all star upside, but I think he has a couple years to go before the physical strength and the offense catch up to the defense. Depending on how we use him, he has a little Landry Fields to him as an off guard.

I don’t think Kira Lewis Jr will be ready to start from Day 1 and because of that I don’t know if the Knicks are a patient enough organization. Okongwu isn’t worth discussing.

Alan:
People compare this draft to 2013, but 2013 had Giannis, Oladipo, and Gobert. Only one of them went in the high lottery, though, and needed to pass through multiple teams to live up to his potential.

Weird thing about the 2013 draft is that nearly half of the 60 players draafted became legit NBA rotation players at some point. Even Ben McLemore is coming around. What may give Knicks fans hope is that 6 of the top 8 players (by VORP) were drafted #10 or below. It seems to suggest that your best bet in a draft like this is to go with either a big or a non-freshman college player.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: To be fair, the domestic players don’t really impress, either. Such is the nature of talent distribution in the NBA: a handful of superstars, a smattering of second-tier stars and glue guys, reliable minutes-eaters/usage soakers and then a whole bunch of scrubs.

true and I guess you can argue something like the overall pool of domestic is bigger so the probabilities are similar…it’s just that the benders, exums’, etc., got me soured on the imports although I am intrigued by that greek beanpole dude….

Z-man:
To be more clear, I think there’s a tendency here to be down on players like Okongwu and Wiseman because they aren’t a good fit with Mitch. I personally couldn’t care less about that, not when we only have 2 legit prospects (being generous to RJ) and a bunch of shitty vets on short-term deals and scrubby young guys. We need good players at every position, and should draft the best player available. If it’s Okongwu or Wiseman, draft them and fill the other positions in some other way.

agree but i don’t see wiseman being there at 8…would have to move down..

Z-man: Why?

We have Mitchell Robinson and there’s no way the Knicks will actually draft him. I also think he’ll be a Golden State Warrior unless James Wiseman blows the doors off his individual workout with the Warriors.

“I thought he had a horrible year. I thought he was really bad.”

-Greg Anthony, on his son

DRed:
“I thought he had a horrible year. I thought he was really bad.”

-Greg Anthony, on his son

Here’s the rest of that quote:

Now, he got hurt, and he was hurt earlier than when he actually ended up having to shut it down, and that had an effect on him, but he could’ve been so much better

The kids stats are not pretty, and everybody in his camp knows he had a bad frosh season at UNC. I do think that it would be pretty foolish to not look into a high level prospect by all accounts who had his season derailed by the same type of injury that cut Derrick Rose’s peak short, though. Again, I’m not even trying to advocate for the kid, but it’s pretty hard to be an explosive point guard when you have a tear in your meniscus, and it’s tough to be an explosive point guard when you’re recovering from mid-season knee surgery.

It’s also worth noting that Cole Anthony got the green light from Roy Williams to play hero ball. That Tar Heels team was really, really bad.

Drafting Cole Anthony ahead of Devin Vassell and Aaron Nesmith would be a bad idea. I think we need another wing to pair with RJ Barrett so that he doesn’t get swarmed and destroyed by Brown and Tatum four times a year, and I’m against drafting point guards who aren’t already elite as an athlete, shooter, or ball handler. Maybe we take Cole Anthony and he tanks us into Cade Cunningham, Jalen Green, or Johnathan Kuminga to be RJ Barrett’s Batman, and then Johnnie Bryant turns Cole Anthony into a more athletic FVV. Either way, it’s not a good strategy and we should go get the elite shooter or elite defender. Maybe we can trade up into the late teens to draft Cole Anthony, but at 8 it’s way too soon.

We all know how this story ends, though.

The Sixers can’t shoot at all and have some of the worst contracts in the NBA

in other news – it was 108 degrees outside today…that’s a little over 42 celsius for you all in the rest of the world…

now, hot temps aren’t all that rare here in this area – what was odd about this though was the accompanying wind with this extreme heat…

read just recently that a fire tornado had appeared somewhere here in cali…i’ll tell ya, if that ain’t a sign for end times, i’m not sure what is…maybe when those little lizard things that are everywhere here start dropping from the sky – that might just do it…

pyrocumulonimbus cloud – what in the hell….

not as warm up here in NorCal but with the wild fires…the air quality is horrible…and wine country is burning up again..

So you think it would have been a bad idea to draft Bam Adebayo or Montrezl Harrell at #8 in this draft? Okongwu had a .645 TS% on a 23.6% usage, and averaged 11.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks per 40 in a tough conference as an 18yo. It would be incredibly dumb to pass on him if he falls to #8. Which is moot because it is highly unlikely that all seven of the teams picking above us would be that dumb.

Using 2017 as a reference, we did the wrong thing and took Frank Ntilikina over Luke Kennard, Bam Adebayo, Donovan Mitchell, OG Anunoby, Montrezl Harrell, Kyle Kuzma, and Dillon Brooks. Adebayo, Harrell, Okungwu, and Wiseman would obviously all be better picks than Cole Anthony, but in a world where we have Mitchell Robinson and you can really only play one-non shooting big at a time (really you can only get away with playing one non shooter at the highest level of the league), taking Okungwu/Wiseman does nothing for your immediate synergy and it takes away an opportunity to add a quality wing/guard on a below market deal. Whether or not Donovan Mitchell will be worthy of the max contract he eventually signs either in Utah or elsewhere, he’s absolutely worth more money than his rookie scale contract.

I think my point is unless you need a center, don’t take a center. Those guys are valuable, but I don’t know if the difference between DeAndre Ayton (can’t miss elite big man prospect) and say Myers Leonard is great enough to pass on Trae Young or Shai Gilgeous Alexander. Similarly, I don’t know if I take Okungwu over Ball, Zeke Nnaji over Tyrell Terry, Wiseman over Devin Vassell, and the list goes on.

Yes, whoever had Firenado, Global Pandemic, and Double Hurricane on the their Apocalypse Bingo card is feeling pretty good right now….

that is some funny shit right there owen 🙂

there just has to be a meteor out there floating around somewhere with our name on it…

yes we are not good enough to not be picking the best player available….. mitch is great but he hasn’t been able to crack 25mpg….. if we have two great centers/pf then it’s much better to have that kind of problem than having the problem where the guy you pick sucks….

okwongwu doesn’t suck… and in fact he probably has the highest upside out of anyone else in the draft… his physical ability, hands and touch around the rim is quite rare and he has the potential to be much much more than a rim runner…

if he’s just a rim runner…. then he’s just like a lot of other pretty good centers in the league…. but if he’s more than that then he is one of the most valuable commodities in the nba….. if he’s there…. you cannot let having mitch stop you from picking him…..

Personally, I think not picking good players has been what held the Knicks back, not picking according to our needs. If we needed a guard and identified that as a need in 2017, we should have taken Luke Kennard or Donovan Mitchell. If we needed a forward in 2018, Mikal Bridges or Michael Porter Jr.

Not being able to identify good players in the draft has hampered the Knicks way more than passing on good players because of “need,” unless you consider passing on SGA because we had Frank and passing on Bam because we had KP need-based decisions. I think that’s what Phoenix did with Ayton over Doncic and what Memphis did with JJJr over Trae Young. I’m also not necessarily advocating for that.

Aaron Nesmith, in a limited sample size for sure, scored 23 points a game shooting at a .685 TS% on a 26.3 USG% at Vanderbilt this season. He converted 4.3 3PM a night on a ridiculous 52% from 3. He has an NBA body and ideal height/weight/wingspan for the position. I’m saying you don’t pass on that guy for Okungwu if you’re the Knicks because you already have a good center prospect, and you can find a starting level center for much cheaper than you can find a starting floor-spacer wing type. It’s why Danny Green makes more money this year than Dwight Howard and Javale McGee combined, and why the Clippers gave up their 1st round pick for Marcus Morris. You need shooting wings, and when a guy like Aaron Nesmith comes around you probably shouldn’t take the big ahead of him unless that big is like KAT or Anthony Davis.

Maybe Okungwu is a Hall of Fame center and Mitch never stops fouling. I do think Mitchell Robinson is our best player and I’m excited to see what he does in year 3 under Thibs and Payne. I also think Barrett and Robinson would benefit tremendously from playing with a guy like Nesmith who can space the floor and give them room to operate in the middle.

Of the best 10 mock drafts to come out after the lottery, these 10 players were the ones in each one:

Edwards, Wiseman, Ball, Avdija, Okongwu, Toppin, Okoro, Haliburton, Hayes and Nesmith.

Aside from Edwards and Ball, I feel like any of the rest could be there at 8. Worst case scenario would probably be picking between Avdija, Okoro, and Toppin, which isn’t so bad.

Let me give a record Collector example:
Let’s say that i have 20$ in my pocket and go to a record shop for vinyl hunting.
There i find a not rare vinyl that i’d like to add in my collection which costs 20$ and worths 20$ and one other that i already have in my collection which is wrongly priced due to shop’s cluelessness for 20$ that worths 250$!
Guess which one I’m going to buy

I guess I should back off Okongwu a bit, he’s got a high floor and great measurables for his age but is still pretty raw. I hope he gets taken in the top 7 so that it isn’t a question. Of the guys who may be available, I like Haliburton, Nesmith and Lewis Jr. the most, but it’s hard to have any firm conviction about anyone. Okongwu could turn out to be Bismack Biyombo, which would suck.

The Clippers finally came to play playoff basketball. They are playing more physical and are actually trying. They played maybe one quarter of decent basketball the first two games. Maybe all the in and out of the bubble stuff was part of it, but whatever it was they are rounding back into form.

This might make some of you feel just a bit better.

https://www.theringer.com/2020/8/21/21396183/nba-draft-lottery-new-york-knicks

Also, the description of RJ’s “context” is a nice rejoinder to all those who described last year’s off-season shit-fest as “of no consequence” since they were all short-term deals…

Raven:
This might make some of you feel just a bit better.

https://www.theringer.com/2020/8/21/21396183/nba-draft-lottery-new-york-knicks

Also, the description of RJ’s “context” is a nice rejoinder to all those who described last year’s off-season shit-fest as “of no consequence” since they were all short-term deals…

Nice article, Raven, thx!

one of KP’s better all-around games

Shamet, what are you doing?!

only real big surprise so far seems to be the jazz smashing the nuggets 2 games in a row…well, that and okc not playing better…

***whoever had Firenado, Global Pandemic, and Double Hurricane on the their Apocalypse Bingo card is feeling pretty good right now….***

I had Derecho, Race Riots, and Murder Hornets. But I also have Liberal Vampire Pedophilia Cabal, which I just can’t get to come up no matter how much I post about it on 8Chan.

The highlight of that Ringer article:

The silver lining to being a team that needs help everywhere is that virtually everyone could help you; New York doesn’t have to approach the pick as if it’ll be a failure or disappointment if it doesn’t yield a star, so long as it provides a ceiling-raising complement to what’s already on hand.

I’m in the Nesmith/Vessell/anyone who can shoot camp. That’s a nice block to add to Barrett and Mitch.

I, too, am on board with anyone who can outright shoot at #8. I just need the Knicks to have someone who can spread the floor. Please, Knicks, please.

My guess is we fuck up and trade up. The top of the draft is interesting-both Minny & GS want to win now. Does Minny want to draft Edwards, who is a very Wigginsish prospect? They probably don’t want LaMelo because they just invested big money in a PG who the got to keep their star happy. I’ve seen a lot of mocks put Wiseman to Golden State, but do they want to waste the end of Steph’s prime (which I think is already past, but they probably don’t agree) on a developmental big? Do they just take Okongwu?

Maybe all 3 picks this year and another 1st would get it done, then they could trade the picks for current players.

If the centers were clearly BPA, then there would be a case for taking one at 8 and figuring out the Mitch overlap problem afterward. But the fact is that practically no one in this draft is the BPA. Even if the Knicks front office really likes Okongwu, they have to be humble enough to say, “Well, this is only our opinion, and a lot of scouts disagree, and we could easily be wrong.”

I would avoid the centers in this draft. We have so many other needs. Practically anyone else will be able to play right away and help right away.

Maybe all 3 picks this year and another 1st would get it done, then they could trade the picks for current players.

That seems quite expensive to me. We definitely shouldn’t be giving up picks in future, presumably better, drafts for a pick in this draft. My impression of this draft is that you can get useful players but probably not get impact players in it. Let’s just get a useful player and keep our future picks. Since we can probably get a useful player with our current pick, why trade at all?

KnickfaninNJ: That seems quite expensive to me. We definitely shouldn’t be giving up picks in future, presumably better, drafts for a pick in this draft.My impression of this draft is that you can get useful players but probably not get impact players in it. Let’s just get a useful player and keep our future picks.Since we can probably get a useful player with our current pick, why trade at all?

I wouldn’t do it, but I doubt that GSW would take anything less. So if it happens (and I doubt it does) then we know that the era of optimism about this FO is going to be short-lived.

You could argue that getting an impact player in the lower part of this draft is unlikely, and that the future pick we would give up is likely lower than the lottery in that year, so it becomes sort of a “move up for Luka” type trade in the FO’s mind. Of course, we know that LaMelo is not Luka, so again, it would be a very bad sign.

I would be more apt to trade down than up in this draft, although we could be fine either way.

The comps for the top two guys just isn’t that high (I’m thinking Rubio for LaMelo and a mix of Ingram/Jaylen Brown-but shorter for Edwards.)

Those aren’t bad outcomes, but they wouldn’t move the needle. In this case, it probably makes more sense to accumulate more picks, not give up some to move up.

***But what do we have that GSW would want, other than Mitch maybe? And I’m not trading Mitch for any of these prospects.***

If the Knicks still had Porzingis, they could probably trade him to the Warriors for this year’s #2 pick + Minnesota’s 2021 1-3 protected pick/2022 unprotected pick + Wiggins’ contract. probably a better haul than the Dallas package will turn out to be. (Would Golden State even do the two picks for Mitch if the Knicks offered?)

Donnie Walsh:
***But what do we have that GSW would want, other than Mitch maybe? And I’m not trading Mitch for any of these prospects.***

If the Knicks still had Porzingis, they could probably trade him to the Warriors for this year’s #2 pick Minnesota’s 2021 1-3 protected pick/2022 unprotected pick Wiggins’ contract. probably a better haul than the Dallas package will turn out to be. (Would Golden State even do the two picks for Mitch if the Knicks offered?)

Unless KP took the QO, which he threatened to do…then we’d have a lot less leverage, or by now would not be able to trade him at all.

Nick Nurse just won Coach of the Year. I forgot that the other Coach of the Year isn’t the real Coach of the Year Award, so I wasted time complaining about Nurse not winning that one. Good for him. It was well-deserved.

I’ve seen a bunch of mocks with either Hayes or Hailiburton available 8th, I’d be happy with either of those guys.

Haliburton 😀
Hayes 🙁
Nesmith 😀
Lewis 😀
Okongwu 😐
Okoro 🙁
Precious 😐
Toppin 🙂
Avdija 😐

also since i am not in any sense better than this it’s a good time for a selfie:

ptmilo
February 3, 2018 at 9:42 am
since it’s looking more likely by the day that hornacek might not be around next year, let me throw a name out there I haven’t seen mentioned: Nick Nurse.

https://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-2018-02-03/#comment-610852

ptmilo:
pt, did you notice that earlybirdrights.com is dead? You suggested that site to me a couple of years ago and I used it all the time since. The moderator got a good job, it seems.

yeah.there is a less user friendly place that let’s you try things out using the forward year cap estimate.it’s at roster-builder.com

Are you aware of a site that you can use to calculate ws48 or BPM or VORP or even PER if you input boxscore-based stats?

i’m not, no.but if you want to get a feel for how changes in individual box components affect bpm in various circumstances you can make a copy of the google sheet linked below (so it isn’t read only) and just mess around with the inputs a bunch.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TZZww6pRmHN2Kg64nkmog7UpiATvtv-41RglxKHCUts/edit

Thanks as always, hopefully KB is Hotel California for you, at least for the next 25 years…

I guess the Bucks have figured Orlando out

Anyone else want to embarrass themselves?

i pick whoever djphan says we should pick 🙂

i haven’t put much effort in to it, but, just at a glance it looks like vassell or nesmith – just because of their shooting…

i don’t know – just from a cursory look at the prospects, i’d really like to see either avdija or lewis jr on our team…

( Correct yet again he thought, while washing down his breakfast shmear with a dram…)

ptmilo:
too lazy to find it but i wanted frank/dsj/monk over mitchell.trifecta.

Ahh, gotcha that time. Even a working atomic clock is wrong twice a millenia, or something like that.

(I wonder if we can make pt’s head explode by asking him something impossible to calculate, like NOMAD on the original Star Trek…)

It’s funny, I was all in on Nick Nurse back then, too, but I also knew that there was no way in the world that they were ever going to be smart enough to hire him. Never. It never even slightly entered my mind as even a remote possibility.

So an inside scoop of sorts:

One of my stepson’s older sibs has followed the Ball clan closely (she played bball in HS, lives closer to Chino Hills). Says we should trade up to draft LaMelo (even w/factoring in Lavar): claims he’ll be an All-Star. She started talking about his enormous social media following and how his popularity can be appealing to a team business-wise. I told her we don’t care about all that (lol) – can he shoot and defend? She says he’s got a personal coach that’s been working on his D and helping him understand running pro sets from the point. Says he’s a clutch shooter that needs a coach to let him run while building him up – confidence is not an issue w/him – he’s got the most confidence of the 3 Ball sons.

She also says LiAngelo’s issue is that Lavar didn’t spend as much time/attn with him vs his brothers (part “middle child” syndrome). Lavar didn’t have the same confidence that he’d make the NBA vs his bros. He also was put in the post in HS at 6′ 3″ due to how strong he was (may have been better off playing football).
Also, Chino Hills, Lavar and bball was all LiAngelo knew (the bubble mentality out here is real esp the suburb cities). So he ultimately got exposed in many ways at UCLA (including the shoplifting issue). But with all that, she thinks he can be a good 3nD role player at 6’5″ in shoes.

too lazy to find it but i wanted frank/dsj/monk over mitchell. trifecta.

I have no special insights into drafting, but I wasn’t a huge fan of Mitchell either.

He’s not a PG and he’s small for a SG. That profile has produced a lot of busts because they can’t defend the 2 and they aren’t good enough play makers to play the 1. The often wind up being scorers off the bench. Maybe the devil was in the details with him defensively, but it wasn’t something I was aware of at the time.

Z-manone of KP’s better all-around games

He’s playing great for his first playoff series against a very good and very experienced defensive team.

It’s obvious what he needs to do next.

1. Get stronger so he can bang for contested rebounds instead of just getting these extra rebounds because he’s playing Center now and his teammates are deferring some uncontested ones to him once in awhile instead of the other way around like in NY. He gets few hard contested physical rebounds.

2. Get stronger so he can finish at the basket when contested and get some extra “and 1” plays instead just going to the free throw line because he couldn’t handle the contact and still finish.

3. Improve his stamina further, He’s doing so much work on offense setting picks on practically every possession and scoring, his defense is getting very lazy and he’s barely trying to protect the rim.

I’m sure he’s going to have a couple of bad games. That’s the nature of shooting a lot of 3s and having a big role on offense taking tough shots, but everything that held him back in NY has reversed. He’s not the #1 option getting doubled anymore. He’s not forcing bad shots because he has to as the #1 option. He has good playing making around him. He’s learning how to play basketball.

It really does suck watching KP look bigger and more confident for this Mavs team, even if he’s more rested than he would normally be at this point in a season. Between DSJ imploding and KD signing elsewhere, the only way I’ll feel good about that trade — even with the size of Porzingis’ contract — is if we can somehow turn those Mavs picks into something real. And even then… it was going to be so much fun rooting for a homegrown star for once.

i still feel good about the trade… kp made some real progress this year although there is a ceiling on what he’s capable of if he’s shooting half his shots from 3…..

i don’t think it’s likely that he will be a multi-allstar type of cornerstone guy…. he probably will be a pretty capable starter and probably make an allstar game or two…. but i do feel good about the picks coming our way and not having to pay him all that money….. it was for the best anyway…..

rockets just choked that one away…might come back to haunt them…should have never gone to OT…

dort was really something. gallo plays defense like he’s 60.

Wow, CP3 was in full bloom down the stretch and in OT…and clutch shot by SGA!

Hey, what’s up with Capela? Could a trade with Atlanta of #2 + 2021 Minny pick + salary filler work? He used to be the perfect big in a run and shoot offense, but then Houston bailed on him. Seems like healthy/happy Capela would be perfect to run with the Warriors next year, no?

super mario in fine form

So how do you stop the LeBron-AD PnR with Nurkic and Melo?

It’s just shocking how little talent there is surrounding Lebron and AD on this Lakers team. Can two Hall of Famers drag a team of mediocre players on their shoulders to the NBA Finals?

The one thing you can say about the Lakers is that they have size. The lineup of LBJ, AD, KCP, Green and Kuzma is mobile enough to guard any small lineup and what can a small lineup do against the LeBron-AD PnR? Assuming the Rockets win (they really should be up 3-0) they might be very tough for the Rockets to match up with, especially with Rondo coming back.

Big Ball > Small Ball

The issue in recent years has been that the big men are not skilled enough offensive players inside to punish smaller lineups by enough to offset the defensive disadvantages on the perimeter and in the P&R .

A highly skilled big man in the post can dominate the paint on high usage at a 60% TS% in the same way a smaller faster man can hit 40% or close of his 3s and wreak havok.

The difference is that the bigger team can dominate the boards and get extra possessions.

But when you have lower usage big men that defend the paint but can only score efficiently on put back dunks and the occasional pick and roll, the disadvantage on the perimeter and in P&R on defense often becomes greater than the advantage in rebounding. The league desperately needs a few highly skilled dominant big men to wreak havoc in the paint and dominate the boards to put all this small ball silliness to rest.

Deeefense: The only way to feel good about that trade are:

1. You know nothing about basketball
2. You are a delusional rose colored glasses wearing Knicks fan
3. Porzingis gets hurt.

Personally, I thought was a horrible trade and wouldn’t feel good inside about hoping a great talent gets hurt so I can be right.

Picks have intrinsic value based on long term expectation.You don’t judge them by what they turn into (good or bad) due to what is partially randomness. Those Mavs non lottery picks do not have a lot of value compared to a player that’sa high level #2 option (and possible #1 option elsewhere) on a very good team that also defends the paint and is getting better.

4. You think that KP is very good but not worth the risk of locking him into max money for 5 years. (which is a reasonable position that I. happened to disagree with at the time and still).

Deeefense: Picks have intrinsic value based on long term expectation. You don’t judge them by what they turn into (good or bad) due to what is partially randomness.

I disagree. It is perfectly fair to judge picks based on what they eventually turn into. Just like you judge signing KP to a max deal based on final outcome after considering risk (including injury).

At the time of the deal it was apparent that if Durant doesn’t tear his achilles, he winds up with the Knicks. Is that a consideration in judging the deal? (again, I was opposed to this logic, but it definitely was a factor…KD’s injury was randomness too, right?)

Z-man: 4. You think that KP is very good but not worth the risk of locking him into max money for 5 years. (which is a reasonable position that I. happened to disagree with at the time and still).
  

His injury risk profile was a serious consideration. It worried me and everyone else that has observed big men over the years, especially weak ones like him. That’s one reason Phil considered trading him.

But the Knicks unquestionably and without a doubt gave up way more intrinsic value than we got back.

Mills/Perry were just incompetent boobs in almost every way imaginable. I don’t even want to discuss them.

But IMO the consensus here undervalued Porzingis quite significantly because the focus was his BPM, WS48, and lack of rebounding without looking at his skill set, stage of physical development, and role.

He was being used poorly, had a lack of quality teammates and playmaking around him that was causing efficiency issues on offense, he was being asked to do way too much too soon against defenses that were game planning against him, and people were underestimating how easy it was going to be to correct his shot selection a bit and put some weight on him and gain some strength .

The dude came in as a 4 year project because of his greenness and lack of strength and people were throwing him under the bus after 2 years due to “one number” stats that quite frankly are a huge pile of dung.

At the time of the deal it was apparent that if Durant doesn’t tear his achilles, he winds up with the Knicks. Is that a consideration in judging the deal? (again, I was opposed to this logic, but it definitely was a factor…KD’s injury was randomness too, right?)

That was the reason I was fine with the trade at the time, as otherwise, I agree that I wouldn’t have done the deal otherwise. But Dolan’s Razor just had to slice that dude’s tendon. It has evolved from a theoretical concept to now becoming a literal razor that slices dude’s tendons.

Strat conveniently ignores that the Knicks did not want to offer Durant a max contract after the injury, which turned the tide. That said, I believe I was on the record of a) not being happy about the KP trade and b) not wanting to invest in even a healthy Durant and Kyrie at that stage of our rebuild. I just didn’t see the makings of a championship team even with that nucleus, and Kyrie is a total asshole who was run out of Boston by Celtics fans. I would have been happy to lock up KP for 5 years, even with the knee injury.

In retrospect, there’s no use crying over spilled milk. We’ve been somewhat unlucky since that deal but by and large are in a decent position to make big strides in the next 3 years.

-We’ve purged the organization of Steve Mills.
-We brought on a FO that gives cause for cautious optimism about a renewed approach.
-Rose has done due diligence and built a braintrust with expertise in very specific areas (scouting, cap management, analytics.)
-Our cap/draft asset position is the best it’s been in decades on it’s face, and even more so when considering the effects of the pandemic and lost revenue from China backlash.
-Rose signed one of the better coaches in the NBA after a reasonably lengthy process and is surrounding him with excellent player development personnel (i.e. subtly limiting his power over personnel decisions).

So KP or no KP, there is ample reason for hope at this point in time. The hope rests mainly on prudent cap and asset management. I am not married to a particular method of team-building. Rose isn’t Ujiri, but if he mimics his methods, which it at least appears he is trying to do, then I can live with seeing KP tearing it up in Dallas for the next decade.

I should also add:
-we trade too many assets for a faux young star like Zach LaVine

(I wonder if CHI jumping to #4 will make them think differently about keeping LaVine…his contract is very reasonable..)

Halliburton was arguably the best college player projected to go in the lottery, and was definitely the best guard. He’d be a fine pick if he’s there 8th.

I’d be fine with Halliburton. I’d take Hayes over him, but if Halliburton is there, I’d be thrilled.

Mavs paying Kristaps a lot of money to not show up in the playoffs

Jayson Tatum had a monster series vs. Sixers. Dude is looking more and more like a legit max superstar and he’s one day older than Obi Toppin.

Raven:
Po-TAY-to, Po-TAH-to. Ben, while I don’t disagree with your usage point, one of the reasons I like Haliburton is the massive improvement from his freshman year. One of the games we play with ourselves (and make fun of each other about) is “If player X gets better at Y, he’s going to be really good.” It’s not proof, but there’s an actual data point on Haliburton making significant improvement — to the point that he went from, as you put it, terrible as a freshman, to as Dred put it, arguably the best college player in the lottery. From one year to the next. Doesn’t mean he has an unlimited ceiling, but it does intimate he can get a lot better at things, and fairly quickly. As compared to, say, Knox. Or DSJ.

Or Donovan Mitchell

Interesting to see the Dallas bench celebrating while Kristaps sits by himself, not smiling

Complete no-show from Pandemic P

Holy shit.

Man, there’s a lot of pressure on Marvin Bagley not to be Sam Fucking Bowie.

I’ve seen a few grown men play the game like this. Their names are LeBron, Michael, etc. But a child playing like this??? Come on.

how could anyone know the acb mvp at age 18 was gonna be this good….

If the Knicks had had the #1 pick in the 2018 draft, I’m really curious to know whom they would have selected with it.

That is a game that will be talked about for decades. That trade by Cuban more than makes up for letting go of Nash.

Not for nothing, but Z-man fave of yore Trey Burke had a pretty good game too!

If George hit shots these last two games would be comfortable wins over a game but overmatched Mavs

All the ex Knicks are performing well. Even Morris is having a very good series in his role. Today he didn’t do much, but he hit a very big 3. We are going to be hard pressed to find a player as good as him with the Clippers late lottery pick and we’ll probably wind up putting someone his age that’s not any good into his cap space. lol I hope we keep Harkless instead of doing something foolish. I like Harkless as a role player.

If George hit shots these last two games would be comfortable wins over a game but overmatched Mavs

PG has basically been hot garbage this series, and a lot of his missed shots have been wide open.

And don’t discount Beverly not playing, he’s a major disrupter on defense.

Can’t be said enough. Luka Doncic was the MVP of Europe at 18 and didn’t go #1.

I think it’s pretty clear the Knicks would have passed on him. And we all would have quit.

BPA is the only way to go if you want to sleep well at night.
Nobody’s complained about missing Giannis or Kawhi on their drafts since they were “under the radar” back then.
But missing Luka you mfkrs….
Even me who don’t know shit about the drafted players each year i knew that Luka was THE GUY on that draft!
When he went 3rd i said to myself “ok, you don’t know how good are the other two ahead of him”
When i saw the trade with Atlanta tho i was like “WTF man!!! Our Dallas picks go to the trashbin”

Lol, Marvin Bagley III

2 days ago
AKarnisovas on trade offers:
“The way I approach the draft is that there are a ton of opportunities. You’re going to take 100 calls, possibly nothing happens and you stay at your picks. It’s just an exciting time to make your organization better that night.”

DRed:
Also I don’t know what the Clippers were doing switching on that last possession.You have to let Kawhi guard Luka.

forget switching…they should have forced Luka to give the ball up with a double team on the inbounds (or denied him the ball since there were only 4 seconds left)…I would have taken a chance with anybody other than him shooting…doc rivers and paul george both look comatose…

***It’s tough to knock the hawks as it’s tough to knock the rockets in ’84 for picking “the dream” instead of the GOAT.***

Imagine if the Sixers had the #3 pick in ‘84 and traded down to draft Barkley, turning Jordan over to the Bulls. That’s more like what the Hawks did than the Rockets selecting Olajuwon over Jordan. Barkley, too, was great, but the obvious, billion dollar choice was clear both years. Don’t trade down when the bird has already fallen into your hand!

As far as I know, drafting Bagley over Doncic was the WORST DRAFT BLUNDER EVER. Although I didn’t think he would be already at MVP level in his sophomore year, I knew as a truth that he would be a perennial All-Star, and I rarely have this kind of take about draftees (since I don’t watch much college basketball).

The ’84 Blazers (Bowie) already had Drexler as SG, and they became a powerhouse through the early 90s. The ’03 Pistons (Milicic) would win the championship that very season. Even in 2018, Phoenix got a very good prospect as center (Ayton) and Atlanta picked an offensive monster (Young). The Suns and the Hawks committed mistakes, IMO, but not lethal ones.

Sacramento, on the other hand, after a decade-plus of utter futility, lucked into a generational talent, a miracle to a franchise that’s still on California only because of David Stern’s intentions of forever keeping Seattle as the proverbial threat to any city that does not help their franchises. No franchise ever needed a superstar more, while actually having the chance to get one as easily, as the Kings in 2018. And they completely outsmarted themselves. It’s not just a blunder. It’s an absolutely franchise-crippling mistake. Lord knows how many years of success they wasted when they made that selection.

To make matters worse, their GM was FROM IUGOSLAVIA! How can a Serbian guy, with a lot of contacts, fail so miserably in evaluating the talent of a kid from Slovenia? So, the Kings were not exactly showing prejudice towards a “soft” European player (it could be one of the reasons); they were just plainly stupid!

To be honest, I don’t think Bagley will ever reach his full potential in Sacramento, if only because of the expectations. Almost every night, everybody at the arena will look at him as “not-Luka”. Maybe even Bagley himself, at this point.

The Glass Half Rebuilt:
Paul George for Joel Embiid straight up. Who says no?

The Sixers.

Doncic reminds of Larry Bird…better ball handler but not as tall, neither can leap but can always get their shot off…

I feel that Embiid needs food discipline and better conditioning while Simmons needs 2hrs shooting a day.
They’re “Big Dogs” looking for a knowledgeable “Big Dog owner” to make them fulfill their potential.

If Utah wins in five does Mike Malone get to keep his job?

The Knicks do not have a package you can trade for a superstar unless you’re trying to give up unprotected first round picks. And unless you can guarantee that Luka Doncic won’t tear his ACL carrying the 2018 Knicks as far as he has, there’s no way I’m trading the 2021 Mavs pick.

Donovan Mitchell. But who knew that he’d be better than Ntilikina?

We didn’t draft Donovan Mitchell Bec he is one sided offensive player like Melo so we drafted Frank because he fits the system right?

The Sixers should clean out the front office and fire Brown and see what a new coach can do before deciding to trade embiid or simmons

I also thought about trading with the Sixers because, like you, I expect them to make changes. But they have lots of what we already have, big men, and don’t have what we need, which is shooters. I couldn’t find anything we would want to do.

Definitely, and they are all long term contracts. Randle looks great by comparison.

If we take a salary off of Philly’s books, it better be Harris LOL. I want no parts of Horford. Well..maybe for Randle and 2 firsts, but why would Philly trade for Randle? Or maybe they would be smart enough to use him as a 6th man, I dunno. Horford’s definitely a better fit with Mitch though..but man! 34 mil for the next few? Yeesh!

Embiid+Simmons need, like, only shooters around them. Like, all shooters. I think a team made up of Simmons, Embiid, and guys like Redick and even Hardaway Jr would make a HUGE difference.

If Philadelphia wants to trade someone, they need to find a trade partner that is short on quality big men and appreciates them. In the East, Miami and Washington come to mind. In the West, if Golden State wants to win now maybe they would like someone else next to Horford, but I have my doubts they’d want anyone one of the Philadelphia players.

It is kind of shocking to look back at where the Sixers were when Hinkie left and see what they have done.

Jamal Murray had a good game in a losing effort. Very surprised by the way that series has gone.

Also, just imagine if Luka were a Knick…

https://twitter.com/dallasmavs/status/1297669830309486594

Choosing to go with Horford/Richardson instead of Buttler/Redick seems D-orientated and smart(?) but when you have a Ready to compete team you don’t fuck it. You just trim it a bit.

It gets lost in the shuffle a bit that the Sixers came closer than anyone to beating Toronto last year. Obviously Jimmy Butler was a big factor in that but I think it emphasizes that with the right guard play around those two guys you can have a championship level team. The big mistake with this roster was living in the ongoing fantasy that Ben Simmons is a PG. He may be a great ball handler and passer but he’s 6’10” and doesn’t take jump shots outside the paint. That’s a PF with positive ball handling and passing traits, not a PG. They finally seemed to be figuring that out right before he got hurt. Using their other big salary slots around Simmons/Embid on a SF/PF and a PF/C is a disaster; if those two slots were star level guards (say they keep Butler instead of Harris and sign Kemba instead of Horford) they’re easily an inner circle title contender.

I think there’s a bit of a fetish in current NBA media around tearing it down and rebuilding, but it’s pretty much impossible to trade someone like Simmons or Embid for anything like equal value talent-wise. You can improve the fit but it’s going to be hard to make up whatever you lose in raw talent. Obviously it’s hard to make changes to the Horford/Harris part of the roster because both those guys looks like albatrosses right now but I think you have to try that first.

“Choosing” to leave a max contract on a young contender who’s Superstar is your “brother” don’t seem like a choice to me.

“Butler gave a vague reason to Yahoo! Sports’ Chris Haynes on what went down in Philadelphia and why he decided to leave, stating:

Stuff just don’t work out. Nobody knows what really went on in Philly and we’re going to leave it that way. But it was a great opportunity for me (to move to Miami).

Butler was pressed on what happened, but refused to shed more light on the situation:

Just go with your gut. You’re not dumb. All of that will come out whenever it’s time. Right now is not the time. I’m locked in with this. I’m happy, man. I’m smiling and my guys want me to be here, my organization wants me to be here, I want to be here and we’re going to ride this thing until the wheels fall off. I’m not saying Philly wasn’t great, man. We had some really good players. I talk to Joel [Embiid] damn near every (expletive) day. It’s a brotherhood, man. I love that guy. I’m going to always have his back and I know he’ll always have mine.

While it does seem that something went down behind the scenes with Butler and the Sixers, he won’t reveal exactly what happened. Instead, he is currently focusing on his situation with the Heat. Nobody truly knows what went down except for Butler and the Sixers. One can assume that both sides would remain tight-lipped on it for now.”

The bizarre Fultz bust didn’t help the Sixers any, either. Perhaps they just “went for it” a bit hastily.

I wonder how KP would have fared there had they drafted him?

I would have still taken a healthy KD and KI on the Knicks, but holy shit, they are coming off like the two biggest douchebags in sports lately. First, KD’s constant lies about his plans last year (he can’t even keep all of his lies straight. Every interview has a new version of what his plans were), then they backstabbed Atkinson while not even playing under him and now, after Jacque Vaughn coaches his ass off, they’re backstabbing him, too, and the dude was highly unlikely to get the gig anyways, so what in the world is the point of them putting it out there that they’d like to see Popovich come here!? Especially since Pop is obviously not leaving San Antonio at age 71 to coach two prima donna assholes, both of whom are coming off major injuries.

The Sixers’ moves last summer weren’t horrible at the time. Harris was coming off a big year and was likely to get the max from somebody. If they just let him walk, they couldn’t have replaced him because they’re over the cap anyway.

Horford was also a top free agent. Maybe he’s not the best fit with Embiid, but he shot much better from 3 last year, so it wasn’t crazy to put them together. It’s not like trading for ZBo when you already have Eddy Curry and David Lee.

Richardson was also a high impact player in Miami who was frequently invisible this year.

Brian, sure, the salaries they have esp for Harris and Horford are bad but Embiid and Simmons are still young and Simmons was hurt and didn’t even play in this series (right? I only watched one game from that series).

Run it back next year with the same group. Find shooting where you can (vet min, d-league). See if Simmons and Embiid can improve their game (Simmons with outside shooting). I just wouldn’t pull a panic trade right now because of one year losing in the first round.

Dallas didn’t trade Dirk when they lost to GSW in the first round. I think the impulse to blow it up is not a smart one but its one that a lot of teams do in panic when they lose early one year. If Embiid and Simmons were 4 years older, then its a different story. But they could ride out the contracts of Harris and Horford and still have those 2 main pieces in their prime. This is where you hope a better coach and some player development can help your young star improve their game. Showing confidence in your core can pay off down the road.

Hubert, I don’t disagree with you in the sense that I would not have drafted Knox because he had “star potential.” If you don’t see a sure fire star, then draft a good floor player and keep it moving.

I’m glad we picked RJ. I know the stats show a tough road for him, but I believe in him.

I’m pro RJ, as well, swift. But I really wish we had made that Atlanta trade. I pray we don’t double down and flip multiple picks to move up in this draft. That’s a classic Knicks blunder.

You can get solid role players in a trade, free agency, or in the draft. That’s not the hard part. The hard part is getting the 2-3 stars you need to contend. So if have a chance to get a legit #1 or #2 scoring option, imo you have to go for it even if you have to pay a bit of a premium.

imo we didn’t draft Knox over Bridges looking for a star.

I don’t know anyone (probably including his own father and Capilari) that thought Knox was going to become a legit #1 or #2 star option. They drafted Knox over Bridges because Mills/Perry/Fizdale value scoring, shot creation, and athleticism over solid defense, basketball IQ, efficiency, playing well within a team etc.. Throw in the age difference that gave Knox more potential for upside and they liked him better.

My argument has always been that they overvalued scoring, shot creation, and athleticism relative to those other qualities and Knox was one of several examples of that.

A guy like Bridges can become a significant piece in the starting lineup of a contender that already has its #1 and #2 option even if his own offense doesn’t expand much (so could a guy like Frank if he just adds a consistent 3 pointer).

A guy like Knox will typically wind up becoming a scorer off the bench unless his offensive development explodes and he becomes an efficient #1 or #2 scorer, which is not likely.

Embiid lumbers. Not a good quality in today’s SSoL environment. Building around a slow big is not a formula for success. Plus he has delusions of grandeur. I don’t care how good he is in the post, he’s a dinosaur as a big-3 player.

Almost every franchise would have drafted RJ there and he was probably the 4th or 5th best choice in the draft.

I don’t know if this is true, but it’s likely that each franchise that lost enough games to have a top-5 pick would have picked him wherever he was available after #2. You know: the badly-managed front offices.

Z-man:
Embiid lumbers. Not a good quality in today’s SSoL environment. Building around a slow big is not a formula for success. Plus he has delusions of grandeur. I don’t care how good he is in the post, he’s a dinosaur as a big-3 player.

I’ll say again that they were a hair’s breadth away from beating the champs last year with Embiid as part of their big-3 and in that incredibly tight loss to Toronto Philly was +89 over the course of the 7 games with Embiid on the floor and -108 with him off the floor. He’s not a perfect player but you can win big with him; but any C is going to be constrained to some extent by his guard play and the guard play on this Sixers team is just lousy.

Our offense and spacing were pretty bad last year but I agree that is not really why RJ struggled. I think he got in his head over the free throws which hurt his ft% for the first half of the season , played too many minutes early and hit the rookie wall earlier than most and then had normal rookie struggles. I think he would have finished the season pretty strong had it not been canceled.

I am not too worried about his long term prognosis. He was very good in spurts and had a pretty special rookie season. Those two things combined make me think he will he just fine. I would be shocked if doesn’t have a much better season next year.

RJ Barrett was not just a victim of poor spacing. He was a victim of being drafted to the Knicks, where we had terrible coaching, little to no player development, poor roster construction, and expectations of being a franchise savior. Nobody, from Scott Perry to Mike Miller to Julius Randle did anything to help RJ Barrett improve as a basketball player. We looked at RJ Barrett and said “yeah that guys a shooting guard” the same way we looked at Kevin Knox and saw a superstar small forward and a two way point guard in Frank Ntilikina.

If the Sixers seriously hire Ty Lue, that will be hilariously bad. I’d be hard pressed to think of a worse fit than Lue there (Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd excluded, of course).

It’s hilariously how much better the Rockets have played than the Thunder for most of this series and yet they’re about to be tied in this series. 3 for 23 from three down the stretch!!

they still shot nearly 40% for the game…chris paul rebukes d’antoni…although he did take (and miss) 5 3’s himself…

i don’t know what the magic 3 point percentage number is for the rockets to win, but, 40% on 55+ attempts, and, they didn’t lose by much…

i hate the heat…bam with the 14th pick, herro with the 13th…robinson undrafted…that’s just not fair…

what’s wrong with Ty Lue?

Whoever takes over the Sixers is going to have to do some real system work. That’s not really what Lue’s about. He’s more of a player’s coach. He could get an assistant coach who could do the system work, but then why not just hire a system coach? Imagine D’Antoni with the Sixers!

‘Imagine D’Antoni with the Sixers!’

If I’d been drinking milk it would have come out my nose.

I suspect that if he suddenly and magically found himself the coach and didn’t immediately kill himself, first thing he’d do is trade Embiid AND Simmons for Duncan Robinson.

The Blazers look exhausted

Very easy pass on Isaac Okoro. As a player who will spend most of his time on offense off the ball, not being able to shoot is a non starter. Let somebody else spend 2 years developing him into a shooter.

The pick should just be Aaron Nesmith, and then trade back up into the early 20s for Poku or Terry.

The same article also lists Nesmith and Kira Lewis as players that some in the front office like, albeit ones they’d prefer to take after trading down a bit. (Or up from the Clippers pick.)

I think Miller would be a good fit in Philly, but it will never happen. They are more likely to go after Lue.

Aside from a front office overhaul, what they need is a coach who can find limited solutions that would maximize their talent in specific matchups

Miller seemed to be doing this with the Knicks who also had a big man heavy lineup. That’s why I think he’ll be good in Philly.

I don’t know about Lue and you make an interesting point about his tweaks. But it’s hard to tell how much he depended on LeBron and Cleveland was a very different team in its construction than Philly is. I agree Lue is a competent coach in the right situation. I’m just not sure Philly is the right situation for him.

“it just goes beyond my reasoning how anyone could back that man“

During last week’s Democratic National Convention, how many times did anyone mention:

Violent protests that have killed people and caused billions of dollars in property damage?

China, the foremost global competitor/opponent of the U.S.?

The impeachment of Donald Trump?

#metoo?

The fact no evidence has ever been found of any “collusion” between the 2016 Trump campaign and Russia?

Mike

***If Philly thinks that their system doesn’t really need to be overhauled (I would disagree) and they were just done in by the Simmons injury, then sure, Lue would be a logical enough pick.***

If the only problem for the Sixers was the Simmons injury, why fire Brown at all then?

Speaking of systems, there’s really no way Thibs will install a modern offense, right? Which is kind of a bummer. I think you can win as a defensive juggernaut these days, but you also have to be able to space the floor on decent volume (unless you have Lebron and AD). I suppose our draft picks will show us a little more about what Thibs really thinks. Like, if Okoro is there, would he push hard to get him? Would he tolerate a Toppin pick?

No coach could install what is now thought of as a modern offense with the roster the Knicks have. Not only can’t it be done, but it would be pointless to try. Teams do better playing to their strengths. So i say the jury is still out on this question.

I wonder what it’s like to be that fucking stupid

The same article also lists Nesmith and Kira Lewis as players that some in the front office like, albeit ones they’d prefer to take after trading down a bit. (Or up from the Clippers pick.)

if we manage to end up with both nesmith and lewis i’d spend at least a few months on team leon

The fact that they are leaning towards Lue seems to suggest that they don’t think they need an overhaul, but I think that’s a mistake.

At least the way I see it overhaul & systems coach are not synonymous which seems to be how you’re using them. Philly definitely needs to be doing things differently but when I think of a systems coach I think of a guy who has a pretty rigid idea of how he wants his team to play and comes in and implements that and fits the talent into it vs. on the other hand we can maybe call it a “pragmatist” a guy who comes in and takes the talent and does what’s best given the talent on hand (in reality this is obviously more of a spectrum than an either/or and all coaches embody elements of both).

Systems coaches tend to be good for developing teams because the talent on hand is pretty fungible and you can get make it work with the system – for example the Knicks currently have Mitch and maybe RJ as no doubt keepers with a bunch of other question marks. They could have hired someone to play any style in the known basketball universe (except I guess 5-out but I don’t think there are any true 5-out hardliners above like low level college yet) without it conflicting with the talent. You could shape the roster to however the coach wants to play.

The Sixers on the other hand are quite locked in to an extremely specific roster. Their talent is not fungible at all. That roster conflicts heavily with a lot of systems that you might want to run. Would D’Antoni (the ultimate systems coach) be a good hire in Philly? Of course not; you can’t hire him to coach that type of roster, it would make less than no sense. That’s not to say that no systems guy would be a good choice (their roster kind of fits the triangle honestly; what do we think Phil is up to these days?) but it would have to be a pretty specific thing because that roster is going to be tricky. That’s why to my eyes it’s a job for a pragmatist.

If the front office really thinks Nesmith is a guy they can get with the Clippers pick (or in range to trade up from there), they are in for a rude awakening. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s off the board at 8.

I don’t want to jump to conclusions, because who knows if that’s true. But it strikes me as the same sort of backwards thinking we employed in the 2018 draft: with a late pick, take a guy you know will be good; but with a prime pick, swing for the fences on upside. Goes without saying I feel the complete opposite.

Adversity does not build character, it reveals it.

so it goes for our world: When fact is fiction and TV reality

of all the things to be fearful of this year, d.t. getting re-elected is maybe number 3 or 4…the well-being of family and myself being one and two…

kp out again against the clips…

Didn’t seem to hurt them Sunday. It’s almost as if the Mavs are just as good without kp as they are with him (yes, I am baiting a certain kp stan with this.)

Vernon Carey Jr. sure sticks out like a sore thumb on those models.

Probably will be wrong about him but seems like he will be underdrafted.

“Answering Shaq’s question about his experience in Europe, Luka Doncic named Greece, Serbia, and Turkey the three toughest places to play in.”

🙂

Owen:
Vernon Carey Jr. sure sticks out like a sore thumb on those models.

Probably will be wrong about him but seems like he will be underdrafted.

putting need aside…if he is available late first round…I would go for it…I didn’t watch a ton of college hoops this season but when I watched him…that guy looks like a brandon clarke type but slightly bigger/stronger and same or little better around the rim…

Uh, Kira shot worse from three than Hali: 37 to 41%.

Kira’s been a below-average finisher, and he gets pushed around on defense. In fact, Hali bested him when they went head to head this year.

Plus, Kira’s advanced numbers are similar to Knox’s (!!)

I like his speed and ability to turn the corner, but you’d be projecting with the very young Lewis just as much as you would with some of these other guys, maybe more so.

“The hardest skill to find is a guy who can easy shots for himself and others.”

The eternal debate here.

It is true that you can pick up a Luc Mbah a Moute. It’s also true that you can pick up a Trey Burke or a Jamal Crawford type as a scoring fill in. Shane Larkin here we come.

Watching Carey highlights, I kind of get it. He is definitely not the athlete that Clarke is. There is some Okafor potential.

But if we came out of this draft with Wendell Carter 2.0 in addition to a guard like Halliburton, I’d be ok with things.

The more I look, the more I think there’s talent in this draft. It’s just not in the top of everyone’s mocks.

We can get good value at 8 if we aren’t stupid.

I like Kira Lewis, but not nearly enough to draft him close to 8

Right now I want Nesmith at 8 unless someone falls. Maybe on Vassell because I’m skeptical of his shooting

Owen:
“The hardest skill to find is a guy who can easy shots for himself and others.”

The eternal debate here.

It is true that you can pick up a Luc Mbah a Moute. It’s also true that you can pick up a Trey Burke or a Jamal Crawford type as a scoring fill in. Shane Larkin here we come.

Watching Carey highlights, I kind of get it. He is definitely not the athlete that Clarke is. There is some Okafor potential.

But if we came out of this draft with Wendell Carter 2.0 in addition to a guardlike Halliburton, I’d be ok with things.

Carey was a freshman…i think he will be much different by his senior year.

pepper: Carey was a freshman…i think he will be much different by his senior year.

Maybe, but it’s speculative. I don’t think anyone should take Brandon Clarke as an example to say about another prospect, “Well, if this guy, like Clarke, completely remakes his shooting form, turning into a sharpshooting, screen-setting, rim-protecting, explosive-leaping, small-ball stretch 5, he’s a good pick!” Clarke is a pretty extreme outlier in both NCAA production and development. His trajectory looks an awful lot like Giannis and Kawhi, although I don’t think he’ll ever be as good as either of them.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: Maybe, but it’s speculative. I don’t think anyone should take Brandon Clarke as an example to say about another prospect, “Well, if this guy, like Clarke, completely remakes his shooting form, turning into a sharpshooting, screen-setting, rim-protecting, explosive-leaping, small-ball stretch 5, he’s a good pick!” Clarke is a pretty extreme outlier in both NCAA production and development. His trajectory looks an awful lot like Giannis and Kawhi, although I don’t think he’ll ever be as good as either of them.

I just threw Clarke out there off the top of my head…it was more of the type of game then a direct comparison…i was just impressed with Carey’s game every time i watched him play…

I think Malone is the next head to roll after this series is over…

Pretty good dunk by Mitchell too.

Jamal Murray is hotter than hydrogen

i guess i better sew malone’s head back onto his trunk…

do it with my eyes closed…

It’s pretty funny how much the Clippers just need George to, you know, not suck.

I mean, I appreciate the players. I don’t think the boycott is the right move for them but credit for considering it.

Boycotting a game isn’t going to do much, in my opinion. We’ve got video of cops brutalizing peaceful protesters and it’s not doing a damn thing. The “millionaires preaching from a millionaires’ bubble” narrative will be strong against them, even if unwarranted.

They should instead unite and use their money and influence to get people registered to vote. And then blitzing their Instagrams and Twitter to remind people to get their ballots in. A voting initiative in Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Detroit, Grand Rapids and cities like them could be the thing that swings the polls toward a president that might actually oppose militarized-police fascism.

The only way to drive change has always been within the system.

Has it?

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Tulsa_race_massacre

I do worry that the continued posting of flaming buildings on FOX et. al. is going to influence some swing voters. Sort of like in the movie “The American President: “We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your paticular problem is, I promise you, [Donald J. Trump] is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things, and two things only: making you afraid of it, and telling you who’s to blame for it…that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections.”

Unfortunately, Joe Biden is not Andrew Shepherd

Jowles, what does a race riot from 1921 have to do with anything I said? Here you have a Democratic party itching to promote equality and justice, and a way to get them into the Oval Office: an election.

Are you sure this is true? Voting is actually what perpetuates the system.

Are you proposing a system where voting is NOT what drives change? What system would that be?

Historically, the most effective driver of deep, systematic change has been civil disobedience. That, and war.

Well, I mentioned nonviolent protests already, so what are you disagreeing with? War? No, I don’t think the situation merits war.

I do worry that the continued posting of flaming buildings on FOX et. al. is going to influence some swing voters.

Exactly. That is EXACTLY what will happen. MLK and Gandhi had a different route of promoting change than what is going on right now.

I don’t get the McMillan move at all. There must be some behind the scenes tension there.

I’d love for the Knicks to get Bertans, but only if it corresponds with a Randle move (either to the bench or preferably off of the team). Bertans at the 4? I love it. Bertans at the 3, keeping RJ at the 2? Not a fan.

Voting is great and all, but I don’t think it’s the solution to the police problem. Joe Biden does not care about fascist police repression–he wants to increase funding for police–he cares about dressing up that fascist police repression with things like citizen’s advisory boards (proven not to work); diversity hires (proven not to work); community policing (proven not to work); and banning chokeholds (proven not to work). The difference between Joe Biden and Trump on issues of law and order is that Joe Biden will actually feel bad when he sends federal troops into Portland, or Minneapolis, or Kenosha, or Chicago, or what have you. And he may make some token reforms re: mass incarceration. But the police violence problem is not going to be solved by voting Joe Biden in. I’m not even sure it’ll signficantly help with the fascism problem, since white militiamen are constantly aided and abetted by the police.

I think that voting and legislation is the downstream effect of a lot more substantive (and generally local/state-level) political work–organizing, protesting, civil disobedience, etc. What’s going to solve the problem is pressuring cities and states via protest–some of it violent–until it becomes nigh-untenable to have a police department that looks anything like its current form. That’s what happened in Minneapolis–whose city council would not have voted to disband the police department without massive grassroots pressure. As far as the police goes, voting is not what’s going to get the goods except by proxy, and whether it does is insensitive to whoever occupies the Oval Office, because police departments are locally controlled.

Videos of burning buildings might convince some voters to not vote for Biden. But if enough people in America are like that, such that it enables a Trump win, then this nation is fucking hopeless in the first place. In any case, I think protesting–in a variety of ways–is necessary right now, whatever the optics.

Nate McMillan fired by Indiana.

i thought mcmillan was/is a good coach…if the nuggets end up falling to the jazz – i think they should hold on to malone, who i also think is a good coach (and, although not completely relevant – a really good person)…

so the current openings are: bulls, nets, pelicans, sixers, and pacers…the pelicans and pacers may be the two best openings…

i read your words and feel them wetbandit…it’s a really messy and oft times disheartening situation…

Videos of burning buildings might convince some voters to not vote for Biden. But if enough people in America are like that, such that it enables a Trump win, then this nation is fucking hopeless in the first place.

that’s a sobering thought to read in the morning…i think of just how morally corrupt trump is – and, quickly remember there are tens of millions of people in our country who feel as he does…

genocide and slavery have been a constant component of society since forever – it ain’t just a few people doing this stuff…

although i’m old and see “my” world changing all the time (which freaks me out a bit) – i do believe societies as a whole have become more compassionate over time…the human being ain’t nothing nice though at times…

After helping the LA Clippers beat the Mavericks 154-111 in franchise-record-setting fashion to take a 3-2 series lead, the six-time All-Star revealed that he was “in a dark place” during his walk-off interview with TNT.

“It was just a little bit of everything,” George later explained when asked what he meant. “I underestimated mental health, honestly. I had anxiety. A little bit of depression. Just being locked in here. I just wasn’t there. I checked out.

“Games 2, 3, 4, I wasn’t there. I felt like I wasn’t there. Shout-out to the people that were in my corner, that gave me words. They helped big time, help get me right, [get] me back in great spirits. I can’t thank them enough.”

anxiety is very real…i’ve always thought of it as feeling like you’re running up the stairs with michael myers chasing you…i’ve felt melancholy at times since i was young, but, that’s never been an unpleasant experience for me, i think of it more as a warm blanket covering me…thankfully i’ve been able to be spared the feeling of depression…it’s sounds like a really shitty thing to go through…

wishing you all well in your own little life bubbles 🙂

I think that voting and legislation is the downstream effect of a lot more substantive (and generally local/state-level) political work–organizing, protesting, civil disobedience, etc. What’s going to solve the problem is pressuring cities and states via protest–some of it violent–until it becomes nigh-untenable to have a police department that looks anything like its current form.

I disagree. I am a nonviolent person, as is my family and culture (we are not white by the way, and I didn’t think it was necessary to bring up when I was called an example of ‘white fragility’ or whatever-truth shouldn’t depend on the speaker’s background)
Violence is only the answer when you feel like the system’s establishment of law and order has irredeemably failed. Examples: apartheid, warsaw uprising, french revolution.
I don’t think the system has failed to the point where armed revolution is necessary. I don’t think burning down a Wendy’s was justified, or rioting in the streets.
All systems are differing degrees of ‘fail.’ If you think we are on the part of the spectrum where the gauge is red and it is time to fight the police, go ahead. But I doubt enough people will join you to get anything other than jail time.
What people should do otherwise? Vote for people who believe what you do? Go to law school, get elected or take on these cases. Or write. Or start an organization. Or stage boycotts, sit-downs, anything you can think of to draw sympathetic attention to your plight.
And come up with a solution. Defunding the police will end up with lower wages and supplies, and corrections-officers levels of results. Horrible. How about a longer training with longer hand-to-hand combat training so shooting a gun isn’t felt to be necessary every time… there are many solutions. There’s a lack of discussion on solutions, but rather screaming about the problem, it’s childish.

Vote, protest, etc. Do it all to try to help positive change. I also financially support organizations that fund protests/public pressure, hire lobbyists, file lawsuits, etc. I probably should do even more of that.

yeah, i’m back on the xanax strat…i used to feel like shit for just needing to take it, like it was admitting weakness and stupidity…i’m at the point now, i just want my heart to stop racing, don’t wanna feel like i need to scream or crawl out of my skin…

one thing that helps when it appears is hiking/walking til exhaustion, the high heat right now helps with that…i don’t always have time or the inclination to do that (it’s on my schedule for later today though, looking forward to it)…

geo:
yeah, i’m back on the xanax strat…i used to feel like shit for just needing to take it, like it was admitting weakness and stupidity…i’m at the point now, i just want my heart to stop racing, don’t wanna feel like i need to scream or crawl out of my skin…
one thing that helps when it appears is hiking/walking til exhaustion, the high heat right now helps with that…i don’t always have time or the inclination to do that (it’s on my schedule for later today though, looking forward to it)…

I joined a meditation group at a local library. I liked it. It was almost certainly helping. I started meditating once or twice a day on my own too. Then when Covid came the group had to break up and I slowly stopped meditating on my own too. I’m taking Xanax 2-3 times daily now. This is the 2nd time in my life I’ve needed to do that. Last time it took about a year to slowly get healthy enough to get off it. This year, the stresses I’ve been under are so massive, it’s a miracle I haven’t had a breakdown. Somehow I’m getting through it (medication aided) and can still find time to be a pain in the ass on forums. haha One of the biggest stresses may be resolving itself favorably within weeks. If I can get past that, I’m hopeful that I can feel somewhat normal again without the meds someday.

Strat is a nihilist

Yikes. So, should we all just commit suicide or just shut up and take it? I’m a Mets, Jets, AND Knicks fan, yet not that cynical…
🙂

I seem to recall reading that the “happiest” people are in Denmark, for some reason. If true, I wonder why?

Even the officials have walked off the court

Geo, in response to your question that set off a diatribe of my own in response to Bunge; you asked how, how can anyone. In answer I give you this, it’s an oldie but a goodie, comedic yet honestly eye-opening.
https://twitter.com/someknew/status/1298441764848590848?s=21

Brian, it might be time to move onto a new, less nihilistic thread…

What do you mean the bucks are not playing ?
I just ordered a pizza!
Damn you justice!!!

And we were planning on getting Durant. The best laid plans oft go awry; and I’m not even sure the Indiana plan could be described as “best laid”

It sounds like they want a more offensive-minded coach period. D’Antoni is their ideal, but if not him, they’ll find someone else in that mold.

Raven that was awesome

Wow, all of the teams are boycotting their games today.

Good for them.

***Myles Turner would probably have to be traded***

I’ll take him.

(But why couldn’t a D’Antoni(esque) system use him? He can shoot 3s along with defending the rim.)

(Why couldn’t a D’Antoni(esque) system use him? He can shoot 3s along with defending the rim.)

It’s more the fit with Sabonis. They’re too similar and Sabonis is the better player. D’Antoni could easily make one of them work in his system, but two would be superfluous and Turner is too good to be a bench guy, so better off trading him.

The violence we’re seeing isn’t a strategy. It’s an expression of frustration and rage. It’d be better if the reaction wasn’t violent. Sustained nonviolence would probably be more effective.

The anger is real though, and it’s understandable.

i’ve been pretty nerdy my whole life and used to watch pbs a bunch…caught Eyes on the Prize as a young man…it most definitely changed my view on things…

If you are more worried about the violent protesting of systemic racism and police brutality than you are about systemic racism and police brutality, then you are revealing which of the two is more convenient for you.

Trayvon Martin, whose murderer wasn’t even a cop, was 10 months younger than me. Mike Brown was 2 years younger than me. Breyona Taylor was born 10 months before me. Ahmaud Arbery was three weeks younger than me. Jacob Blake is three years older than me. As a black millennial, it breaks my heart to see people like me gunned down by the very organization that we were raised to see as the good guys.

And all people have to say is “it’s an unfortunate situation, but the rioters are wrong.” The same Martin Luther King white people love to point to as the “right way to protest” also said that riots are the language of the unheard. Dismantling systemic racism in America will never happen because entirely too many people benefit from it. So instead we have to riot in the streets and bow out of professional sports games so that people will have nowhere to run and nothing to distract themselves with other than the ugly truth. But yeah, keep criticizing the protestors.

The fish stinks from the head.

Nba decided to eliminate fanatism/hostility and violence in general, slowly but steadily inside and outside of the court.
It made the game less passionate but definitely more civilized, family friendly and humane.

Allowing Violence is always part of a strategy.
In sports or in real life.

A not intelligent strategy.

The whole 17 year old Trumpist vigilante murderer thing does kind of up the ante.

Boycott away

The whole 17 year old Trumpist vigilante murderer thing does kind of up the ante.

ah, i get it now…i read the headline, but, i wasn’t sure what the heck was going on with that…wow – annie get your gun…

If the Lakers and Clippers leave, the season is over. There’s no legitimacy to a playoffs that the two best teams aren’t part of.

But perhaps the Lakers and Clipper accept the democratic process and stay in the bubble as a dissenting minority (probably the wrong term to use here given the grievance, but I’m not sure how else to phrase it).

But perhaps the Lakers and Clipper accept the democratic process and stay in the bubble as a dissenting minority (probably the wrong term to use here given the grievance, but I’m not sure how else to phrase it).

That’s proooobably what happens, I would bet. Perhaps after they get an additional concession from the owners.

Chris Webber may be a pretty bad basketball analyst, but you gotta give big props to him for this:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/08/nba-boycotts-chris-webber-poignant-message-on-why-they-matter

Good on Chris Webber, good on the players, NBA and MLB(!).

I don’t understand why people are calling these actions a boycott, it’s a strike.

Beautiful humanity and sensitivity and intelligence by Webber. Hats off.

Good stuff, Webber.

I don’t understand why people are calling these actions a boycott, it’s a strike.

You’re clearly correct that it’s not a boycott, but it’s not exactly a strike either? At least as I understand it a strike is typically demanding concessions of some kind “I won’t return to work until X” and as of right now I’m not really getting that vibe from it (although it’s a bit unclear I think). I still kind of think “protest” is the right word for now; they protested last night’s games in an effort to raise awareness.

The big question I think is what happens now. If it ends up being more than just a day or two then I agree it would pretty clearly be a strike at that point and the question is what are the concessions the players are demanding. I think they have a ton of leverage right now and the NBA will bend over backwards to do things within their power to calm the players…but really the things they are wanting/demanding aren’t within the NBA’s power. I don’t know how to resolve that fundamental discrepancy.

It was a beautiful message from Chris, but there’s also this: “What’s next? I don’t know what’s next. We need to get everyone’s attention first, that’s the first step.”

Everyone is paying attention. Everyone has been paying attention since May. Everyone was paying attention in 2014 when Michael Brown was killed. Everyone was paying attention to Eric Garner. Everyone in the country had an opinion on Colin Kaepernick.

Attention is at an all time high. The problem is all we have are people who are great at attracting attention. Someone actually needs to do what’s next because we’ve repeated step 1 a thousand times.

I applaud these players, but go further. Go on strike. With MLB. WIth the NFL. Fuck with the money of 92 of the most powerful men in America – men who have extorted government for countless billions already – and make them do your work.

This is so fascinating to me (and amazing). You would think a bunch of basketball players wouldn’t hold that much power but all the NBA owners are billionaires. They do have real power in this country. The players could refuse to play unless the owners back some real change/reforms in our country. Having BLM on the back of jerseys and a few commercials is nice, but its ultimately window dressing and the players are sacrificing a lot by being in the bubble. The owners have lost money all ready with the season being cut short and next season is going to be rough too. This is a moment where the players do have some real leverage. Ultimately, they alone can’t do it but they have a chance to get through to their billionaire owners. Its really an amazing thing. I hope more baseball players/teams and we’re getting close to the NFL starting back up too. If all 3 of the major leagues took a stand right now, that’s a lot of billionaire owners they can hopefully get through to.

I wouldn’t look for MLB to do much. Lot of Aubrey Huffs in that league.

>>> If the owners could unite on pushing forward a voting platform <<<

Voting is not a "what's next" plan, it's a cop out. You know these politicians are in bed with the police unions, right? They do everything side by side. The people you're voting for are complicit. They're performance artists, not actors.

We need to pressure people who can get the people we voted for to act. Any plan that lacks that is a waste of time.

Owen:
I wouldn’t look for MLB to do much. Lot of Aubrey Huffs in that league.

Also, only about 8% of MLB is African American. Though two of the most visible teams ( Yanks and Dodgers) have high profile Black players ( Mookie Betts/ Judge, Stanton. I believe Magic Johnson is in the Dodger’s ownership group). To me, the most interesting is the NFL( about 70% Black) because of the demographics of its fanbase. If NFL players are able to reach the hearts and minds of some of the Obama to Trump voters that could truly rattle the Republicans. For any of this to happen, players ( and owners that support them) need to engage in the same tactics that the right did starting in the ’70s and hire lobbyists and political consultants to try to change the attitudes of the people in this country.
Edit-To Hubert’s point to pressure the pols who are in bed with the police unions( or in the case of DeBlasio afraid) or vote them out. This of course will take time and money.

Hubert:
>>> If the owners could unite on pushing forward a voting platform <<<

Voting is not a “what’s next” plan, it’s a cop out.You know these politicians are in bed with the police unions, right?They do everything side by side.The people you’re voting for are complicit.They’re performance artists, not actors.

We need to pressure people who can get the people we voted for to act.Any plan that lacks that is a waste of time.

I would argue that part of the reason the political process has been co-opted in the way you (accurately) describe is because of perpetually low turnout elections. Low turnout elections with a lot of low information voters are a big part of what gives power to the machines, the lobbies, makes money such an important force, etc. If you could get the populace to consistently both pay attention to and turn out for not only presidential elections but also state and local races (and importantly, primaries) then voting can be the mechanism for holding politicians accountable in my opinion.

This not a leading question, because I don’t know my answer, but: when you say “fix the police” what exactly would you do?
My answer, I’m not sure, might be higher pay, longer training, and psych testing, but don’t know how far that goes. I have heard combat training as a way to plan ahead, take nerves out of the equation, and use nonlethal tactics effectively. Oh, and abolish police unions; if docs can’t unionize, so can’t the police, same reasons.

the media is more worried about their various political agendas and making money than facts

Just because a person can’t be bothered to seek out good journalism doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

ProPublica
Center for Public Integrity
Center for Investigative Reporting (Reveal)
The New Yorker (Farrow, Mayer, Hersh, Gessen, Luo)
Lawfare Blog (Brookings)
Just Security

ess-dog:
thenamestsam said it better than me, but I’ll add that if voting doesn’t matter, why are Republicans doing everything in their power to keep people from doing it?

So by this, do you mean that someone like the Bucks owner Wes Edens should go to his elected city and state officials and say something like “my players are unhappy and I’m losing business, so if you want any money from me for your reelection campaigns, you need to fix your police forces ASAP”?

This would be a bold move, but it might lead to mixed results. It really depends on each specific owner, their politics, and where they are in the country. Ultimately, they could threaten to move their teams.

In part, the owners amassed their fortunes by knowing how to manipulate politicians( Dolan is more infamous for union busting). It becomes a question of do they have a sincere will to do so. Marc Lasry, a Bucks co-owner ( and a NYer) has publicly stated that he supports what the players want to do. What he means by that is what is critical. Is this lip service to mollify the athletes, or is there a genuine desire to serve as a change agent?

the playoffs will resume…maybe friday…i have no doubt there are many players that could care less about a trophy or any additional monies received for staying in the bubble to play, good for them for sticking it out and having the opportunity to continue to voice their concerns…

Exactly, Bo. Adam Silver and Wes Edens managed to extort $250mm in state funding from Wisconsin to build their arena. They can do something in Kenosha, Milwaukee, and every municipality they play in if they so desired. But it will take strong determination by the players to force them to.

Yes, the NYT is great, but it isn’t unbiased. I thought we were discussing reporting, not analysis.

Jared Kushner can basically go fuck himself

https://www.thedailybeast.com/jared-kushner-takes-swipe-at-nba-players-for-their-wealth-and-privilege

I think the Financial Times is a good example of what I would look for.