Our Short Jason Kidd Nightmare Is Over: Tom Thibodeau To Be Knicks Head Coach

Stretching Noah seems even stupider now

I mean, I guess it’s fine. At least it’s a guy who’s had success in his career instead of Jason Kidd or Mark Jackson or the other nightmare options. Not excited but at least not actively angry about it.

I think this was actually a masterstroke PR move, though not intentionally. A lot of people were lukewarm on Thibs and wanted Atkinson or maybe a younger coach from a good coaching tree. The Knicks would have gotten a muted reaction from hiring Thibs. So the best way to solve that is to float a Jason Kidd rumor and all of a sudden everyone is setting off fireworks and stoked.

I swear to god, if he tries to reconstruct the 2011 Bulls the way Phil did, he should be fired on the spot

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
I swear to god, if he tries to reconstruct the 2011 Bulls the way Phil did, he should be fired on the spot

One would hope that all the pre-hire posturing is a warning shot to Thibs to not do that…

Apparently the lottery is exactly one month from today.

KnickfaninNJ:
Apparently the lottery is exactly one month from today.

It was moved to August 20

Not bad at all
Leon +1
We may have a quite rootable team before we know it.

Knicks Fan: I want the developmental coach!
Jack: You can’t handle the developmental coach!!!

A diehard fan friend of mine compared Thibs to Hubie Brown. Thoughts?

I guess if you’re gonna lose a disgruntled all-pro like Adams, this is about as good of a return as you could expect.

Woodson got the Atlanta and Knicks jobs by being head assistant.

Woody was with the Pistons before becoming the Hawks head coach.

hard to tell how much of what we hear is true; but, it “sounded” like thibs really wanted this job…

david fizdale really wanted this job too…

I think thibs should be successful…I kind of thought the same of lenny wilkins, larry brown, don nelson, d’antoni…

sure, wtf…let’s get the season started again and see what happens draft night and in free agency…

seems though that those “control/money/length of contract” issues were all bullshit…

seems this was a done deal since february or even earlier…

there should be some kind of sports journalistic scorecard…

a few of them had this nailed the whole time…

Donnie Walsh:
The headline should read: James Dolan, the only man to turn Lenny Wilkens, Larry Brown, and Phil Jackson into losers, sets his eyes on Tom Thibodeau.

eh eh, don’t forget Mike D’Antoni

Knicks: methinks Rose was trolling this board with the Kidd rumors…

Jets: very nice haul for the Headache Also Known As Jamal Adams.

Mets: Diaz just blew his first save this season. Another HR given up…

Burn in hell Edwin Diaz

You too Brodie

And MLB’s new extra inning rule immediately burns the Mets…

Let Lugo close, that Kelenic trade isn’t going to stink any less if you demote Diaz

Without the Delete 8 tournament, it’s just a set of exhibition games that all reasonable fans should want to lose. I don’t know if it gets worse than that.

Ramona Shelburne:

Reporting with @BobbyMarks42: The NBA is investigating what Los Angeles Clippers guard Lou Williams did while on an excused absence from the Orlando campus, so it can assess the length of his re-quarantining process, multiple sources told ESPN on Saturday.

Williams was photographed at an Atlanta gentleman’s club on Thursday night by the rapper Jack Harlow, who quickly deleted the post from his Instagram story. Harlow tweeted on Friday, “That was an old pic of me and Lou. I was just reminiscing cuz I miss him.”

This is hilarious.

RIP Peter Green.

One player was quoted as saying,

(Thibodeau) plays his guys so many minutes,” one player said. “They’re playing like 40 fucking minutes a game in the regular season – like, why? I don’t think that’s how you’re supposed to coach.”

that’s funny…

TNFH, that link reminded me how it’s always possible to be worse off than you are. James Dolan seems the worst possible owner ever, like you couldn’t actively try to build one from scratch to be worse, until you realize that the Orlando Magic are actually owned by the Satan family, or should I say Beelzebub and spawn…

Sheldon Adelson looking into buying the Mets has some of the strongest *monkey’s paw curls* potential I’ve ever seen

That Stanton homer, wow.

I have to say, being able to hear player reactions and the sound of the ball on the bat so incredibly loud is oddly enjoyable.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/giancarlo-stanton-cranks-monstrous-483-foot-home-run-with-1213-mph-exit-velocity/ar-BB17bEvk?li=BBnb7Kz

Long live Thibs! Going to be very interested to see what he can pull off in the 2.5 remaining years of his five year deal.

“If the strategy remains “just kind of putz around and hope to land elite free agents,” kind of a weird choice!”

My hope is that he is all about 100% commitment to winning and demands that from his players. So he will favor players that demand that of themselves, even if they aren’t the most skilled or efficient. The players that play hard and smart and good won’t have a problem with him. They don’t have to love him anyway, nor does he not accommodate offensive-minded players. I mean, his 62-win team had Rose, Boozer, and Korver in their top 6 players, and none of them could play D. One thing for sure is that we’ll know what we have in all the young guys. He’ll put them in the best position to be successful. He’ll bench them if they continue to suck.

I want a coach that gets the most out of his/her players, where the team is better than its parts. Not sure Thibs is that guy, but that’s what I’m looking for.

Still don’t understand why Thibs wants to coach these guys

DRed:
Still don’t understand why Thibs wants to coach these guys

I think there is an allure to the possibility of being the one who turns the Knicks around. It would be one of the most heroic sports stories of the new century.

Now the question is, which player in the top of the draft is the best fit to play under Thibs? Divas like KAT and Wiggins don’t survive Thibs.

***Still don’t understand why Thibs wants to coach these guys***

He spent 7 seasons coaching the Knicks, back when their games were meaningful and everything wasn’t terrible 24/7. So he’s had a taste of success in NY, which is a pretty powerful aphrodisiac. (And he left just before Isiah took over, so he may not know just how bad things can be around here!)

latke:
Thibodeaux does not strike me as particularly self-aware, and as I’ve explained before, he seems to me to be one of the most monomaniacal people since Ahab, so I imagine not having a coaching job brings overwhelming existential angst. For those two reasons, I highly doubt Tom put much thought into his fit with the Knicks. He took the job because they called first with an offer long enough that he’ll have some power.

As someone posted above, the Knicks are the team where legendary coaches’ careers come to perish. Though Thibs does not make it into the legendary category, he must know that coming off the less than stellar performance with the TWolves that if he fails to create the perception of success this will be his last NBA head coaching gig. The risk of this seems confirmed by his alleged insistence of a five-year deal, though that could also be seen as hazzard pay and what about Derek Fisher rationale. I would hope that as much as a megalomaniac that he may be that those he trusts have told him that he must adapt to the modern NBA or perish ( cf. Jackson, Phil). His appearance at Sloan at least suggests he listened a bit.
The bigger question is what is his mandate from Rose and we won’t know that until Rose starts composing the roster. It seems like hiring a veteran coach confirms what many here fear based on Dolan’s history- that Rose will be swinging for the fences in roster building. So who are the NBA comps to Cano and Diaz?

The PTSD here is strong

Going into next season, I want to see Taj, Wooten, and Iggy man the backup frontcourt spots. That means Randle has to get moved and we have to draft a guy like Jalen Smith and sign one of Bertans or Harris. Actually in that scenario, I wouldn’t mind starting Taj at the PF spot and giving him 20 minutes a game so the youngins can develop.

But seriously, who would trade for Randle? Where does he actually fit? Portland? Sacto? Charlotte? Those teams feel iffy to me..

i mean we’ve done the whole credential thing here right…. why is this any different than all the big resume and big name hire for the sake of a big name and resume?

you can like what he’s about…. those bulls teams are probably at thibs best and probably where a lot of folks who like this hire are anchoring on…. i don’t really see it shaking out like that tho…

I’d be ecstatic if if we could get Jurkic and Little from Portland for Randle by the way. I know it’s alot of money to pay Jurkic to be a backup, but he’d be the perfect backup for Mitch. He has a well rounded game, he’s coming off an injury so there’s no rush to play him big minutes, and he can anchor that second unit very well- especially if Knox and Dotson stick around. They would get tons of open looks from deep playing with Jurkic. Maybe that helps Ntilikina too, who knows? But I’m down with trying that if it means getting rid of Randle

Why would the Blazers want Randle for Nurkic?

I agree there is no evidence IC that, but I will say that he’s showing signs of being able to make reasonable hiring decisions. If he keeps that up, that will be very helpful.

Traditionally, Vice Presidents are selected to help win elections in key states, because of like thinking with the Presidential candidate (for example, Al Gore), or in order to help raise money by placating a key constituency (Palin or Pence). I don’t think Harris fits any of these buckets since she’s from California, which is very unlikely to go for Trump. Someone like Susan Collins of Maine (except she’s Republican) or that lady from ArIzona whose husband was shot, Giffords I think, Is much more likely.

KnickfaninNJ: Someone like Susan Collins of Maine (except she’s Republican) or that lady from ArIzona whose husband was shot, Giffords I think, Is much more likely.

This is a non sequitur

The biggest danger for Biden right now is that some of the attack lines from the right start sticking with independent swing voters, specifically “he is a puppet of the radical left”, “he wants to defund the police”, “he’s for chaos in our cities”, “he is against law and order” “he will tax us to death and bankrupt the country,” etc. He needs to pick a VP that doesn’t reinforce those tropes.

I personally feel that Warren would be more of a risk in those terms than Harris. Neither will lose suburban women, but Warren is much closer to Bernie/The Squad than Harris and will turn off some folks on the fence. Warren is probably perceived as more “presidential” by some, but not by much. And Warren is old, white, and professorial, while Kamala is young, a woman of color, and a tough-on-crime prosecutor.

Biden doesn’t need a game-changer here, it’s his election to lose. Once folks get a bigger dose of Kamala, I think they will come around. She’s not Obama but can be very formidable in articulating positions, as she did when she attacked Biden’s old stand on busing. She’ll be just fine.

KnickfaninNJ:
Traditionally, Vice Presidents are selected to help win elections in key states, because of like thinking with the Presidential candidate (for example, Al Gore), or in order to help raise money by placating a key constituency (Palin or Pence). I don’t think Harris fits any of these buckets since she’s from California, which is very unlikely to go for Trump. Someone like Susan Collins of Maine (except she’s Republican)or that lady from ArIzona whose husband was shot, Giffords I think, Is much more likely.

hmm… “that lady whose husband was shot…”…actually, it was her…and she retired given the traumatic brain injury she suffered…so don’t think she is going to be on the ticket…

Brian Cronin:
I don’t get the recent increase in odds for Susan Rice. She’s currently #2 in the betting odds for VP after Harris. I like Susan Rice, but it sure seems like she’d be a PR nightmare for the ticket, no? It’d just bring Benghazi back to the forefront.

100% agree. She’s riskier than Kamala.

This is a non sequitur

For sure. But my point In the paragraph above still stands. And I agree, someone perceived as tough on crime might help Biden. But I’m sure he’d prefer someone from a swing state.

And I apologize about Gifford.

Kamala has some baggage as a prosecutor that doesn’t sit well with many progressives and Black voters. But in a situation where you have to pick your poison, she’s a safe choice. And unlike Biden (who has very little upside) Kamala might actually make a great president. If the Democrats want to get anything done in the next 4-8 years, it’s important for the ticket to be as un-polarizing as possible.

I truly believe that Hillary would have theoretically made a great president if she wasn’t as polarizing as she was (in large part not of her own doing even though she didn’t help herself, but whatever.) Had she gotten elected, she would have gotten even worse treatment than Trump. None of her judges would have gotten approved, there would be rock-solid Republican majorities in the House and Senate, and she would most likely have been a one-term president getting crushed in a Republican wave, led by Trump and his narrative that the election was stolen from him, build a wall, China, etc.

The price of these last 4 years has been high, but I think the country will be better for it in the long run.

And the election wonks could be right, but I’m sure geography still matters to Biden.

I think Biden’s team has to assume that Michigan is safe right now. (I know, Hillary did the same thing, but in retrospect, it didn’t matter bc it was more a general demographic trend in several states than one particular state. She was in trouble as soon as VA was much closer than expected) Probably Wisconsin too. The most concerning state is Pennsylvania. If Biden wins Pennsylvania, it probably means he wins the other democratically-leaning swing states too. So I would nominate whichever candidate helps me most in PA, and assume that the candidate has the same impact in MI and WI. If Biden wins PA, it’s all over. If he loses PA, he has to win pretty much everywhere else just to get to 271, and the demographics that would cause him to lose PA wouldn’t bode well for that happening.

Obviously if Joe wins Ohio or Florida it is all over, probably by a landslide. But there’s no one on the short list that would impact those states any more than Harris or Warren. But certainly worth looking into.

Now, that candidate might be Whitmer, but I’d find out how she would play in PA compared to the others.

If you need someone to speak to the young players of today, you gotta go to Woody.

Communication is big, man.

I don’t get the recent increase in odds for Susan Rice. She’s currently #2 in the betting odds for VP after Harris. I like Susan Rice, but it sure seems like she’d be a PR nightmare for the ticket, no? It’d just bring Benghazi back to the forefront.

I understand this from the pragmatic perspective, but remember that the GOP will malign literally any Democrat in an effort to turn them into a toxic asset.

It does not matter one bit how clean someone is. Benghazi was a tragic event with a fake scandal and real political damage, but only because the GOP manufactured enough institutional response to give it legitimacy. Same with the Biden-Ukraine scandal.

I agree that someone like Hillary Clinton should never work in politics again, but the proof of concept has been thoroughly successful: if you create the right narratives, you can make non-Republicans worry about anyone’s “electability,” or “suitability,” in the case of bureaucrats. Sally Yates, Preet Bharara, Andrew McCabe, Geoff Berman, James Clapper, Dan Coats — the chaos is not the only point of the hundreds of firings and resignations manufactured by the Trump Administration; they also want to make sure the departures come with the stink of the dRaiNeD sWaMp, so there’s a thinner bench for future administrations and a chilling effect for those who might have before considered public service. It destroys past experience and limits future competence. It is exactly what the GOP wants, a drowning in a bathtub.

I understand not wanting to give anything up for the sake of this critically-important election, but permitting any semblance of truth to the scurrilous narratives around past officials seems yielding in its own toxic way.

***Kamala’s VP “run” is basically parallel to Biden in the primary. She’s been the frontrunner for VP since this started, and everyone looks at every other option because no one is enthused with her, but then they eventually come back to the original frontrunner all along. She’s not an inspired VP pick, but she’s fine.***

In sports, we call this being Thibodeaued.

I really wish Frank as a point guard would just work out lol.

He has great size and defensive chops, which allows your lineups to be switchable, and he mostly makes the correct pass. Idk… maybe it could work with RJ, at least for a while. Then add Vassell and Bertans to that lineup.

Otherwise, you need a primary ball handler who can shoot, and that either pushes Frank to sg or to the bench. At least with an RJ/Frank/Vassell backcourt, you get a potential top-5 defense.

Hubert, I think we’re talking strategy more than ideology. No one is personally attacking any individual or group on this board. If you can’t see the difference, whatever.

If you prefer some non-partisan balance, I think the best strategy for Republicans to retain power would be to convince Trump to step down and replace him with Pence. He’s perceived as much more level-headed, less divisive, abrasive and impulsive, and less dismissive of COVID than Trump. He would retain Trump’s base (unlike, say, Romney or Kasich) while luring back 2016 Trump voters who simply won’t vote for him again even though they are not a fan of Biden.

Trump is too narcissistic to do that, but that would be a good strategic move.

How do you have the nerve to ban Bob Neptune and then pollute a thread about our new coach with this garbage?

Not sure what you’re talking about. There has never been an outright ban on talking about politics. The discussion today has been respectful and interesting, probably because bob is gone.

For the latter, the “standard bearer” part, I’d favor Stacy Abrams, who looks a lot like the future of the party to me.

If Abrams had pulled out her 2018 race she’d be a shoo in, but I don’t think you can make the former Minority Leader of the Georgia State House of Representatives a geriatric heartbeat away from the presidency. I personally don’t fetishize experience as long as I can tell someone has good judgment, values, etc. but I don’t think the optics are tenable. It’s too bad because she really does check just about every other box.

My pick would be Warren for all of the reasons people have already stated, but it’ll probably be Kamala which is safe and unexciting. Kind of like Biden himself.

“I truly believe that Hillary would have theoretically made a great president”

What is the name of all that is holy is this based on?

She spent most of her adult life riding her husband’s coattails.

She was a non-entity in the U.S. Senate.

Her time as Secretary of State was, at the very least, questionable.

The one thing she was put in charge of during her husband’s administration turned out to be a disaster of biblical proportions. Reminder, Hillary couldn’t get a DEMOCRATIC Senate to vote on her health care bill. It wasn’t that Republicans blocked it with the filibuster. DEMOCRATS didn’t want to vote on it.

She lost the 2008 Democratic nomination to a black guy with a Muslim-sounding name and she lost it, at least partly, because after a lifetime in politics she didn’t understand how caucuses worked.

She lost the 2016 Presidential race to DONALD TRUMP.

I can buy an argument Hillary would have made a better President than Trump but there is literally no rational argument supporting the suggestion she’d be a “great” President.

Mike

We need to hire a Randleologist.
A guy capable to trade Randle successfully.

She lost the 2008 Democratic nomination to a black guy with a Muslim-sounding name

Not a big Hillary fan so don’t really care to parse through the rest of this rant but this is a very bizarre thing to hold against someone. That guy kicked the ass of every politician on both sides who ever ran against him and would have a shot at 400 electoral votes if he could run in 2020!

Julius Randle has to go because his presence is hyper harmful to the development of our young players. He’s a high usage poor shooting turnover machine who has no position on defense. I’d trade him for a longer contract at this point.

MBunge:
“I understand not wanting to give anything up for the sake of this critically-important election”

If that was truly the case, the Democratic nominee wouldn’t be a guy a half-step away from needing to be moved into an assisted-care facility.One of the things I’m most looking forward to in this campaign is reading Twitter when Biden just stops mid-sentence and wanders off the stage during a Presidential debate.

Mike

I don’t think anyone thinks Joe is as intellectually spry as he was 40 years ago. But it’s pretty sad when people have to go through such lengths to paint him as “shot.” He debated a formidable field of Democratic candidates numerous times, and while he had some gaffes, he held his own well enough. You can’t do that and have one foot in a nursing home. But let the Republicans keep beating that drum, it’s worked wonders for them in the polls so far!

If I were a Trump diehard, I’d be pretty worried about how he’s going to hold up in the debates. His schtick isn’t resonating much any more now that he’s not an outsider. I can’t wait to see him trying to defend his COVID response, his take on Charlottsville, Confederate-named military bases, statues, his use of military force against protesters in DC, etc.

The whole “Wait until Trump destroys Biden in the debates” is some fascinating magical thinking nonsense.

It’s been a long time since last I posted.
Hope all are well.
I like having a defense-minded coach. I think it appeals to the city’s character. The Garden will be loud.
I also think Thibs sees the Knicks with a once in a generation physically talented center that he can build a tough defense around.
He brings discipline to what has been an undisciplined bunch.
I think the lack of star power will mean players will take the tough side of Thibs as well.
I’m excited.

Brian Cronin:
The whole “Wait until Trump destroys Biden in the debates” is some fascinating magical thinking nonsense.

I can’t think of a reason Biden needs to debate Trump without some serious concessions.

I concur. I was just looking at Randle’s stats and last year was a down year in eFG and TS% by .06, which is a lot; and he wasn’t awful at 0.492 and.0.538, respectively. A lot of that drop was due to the team and scheme around him forcing him to do too much. It’s worth seeing if he goes back to his former shooting self with better coaching.

Randle’s numbers are not as bas as the feeling you get by watching him destroy team’s rhythm.

He had a few games where he was an efficient beast but he also had many games where his spinning/ball hogging was absolutely nerve racking…

If Thibs can make him play on beast mode Only i’m in. Let’s make him our Carlos Boozer.
But if he starts spinning….Ban him!

I listened to a Zach Lowe podcast with Chris Herring today where they discussed 6th man of the year. They actually spent a few minutes talking about Mitch, which impressed me. They both had Montrezl and Schroeder 1-2, but Zach said he was thinking about voting Mitch 3rd, although he was leaning towards Christian Woods. Nice to see Mitch getting some national recognition at least.

Trump during the debates will ask Biden if he can remember “person, woman, man, camera, TV”

ess-dog:
I think they should just make Randle the backup center and ride out his contract. No need to waste a sweetener to get rid of him.

He’s a poor rim defender, but he could be a decent offensive option on the 2nd unit.

That’s unlikely to happen though. My guess is that he will be in the starting lineup until further notice, and will mainly be at the 4. I agree with KYN’s take that he is analogous to Boozer.

Yeah, Thibs is extremely fond of playing lineups with two big men, so I imagine we’ll at least start out with Randle and Mitch in the starting lineup. We’ll see if that lasts all season, though.

My bigger hope is that he starts RJ at the 3, rather than the 2, though we’ll have to see which guards survive the offseason churn.

The best we can do is put a NSC in Randle’s contract.

*No Spin Clause

Knew Your Nicks:
The best we can do is put a NSC in Randle’s contract.

*No Spin Clause

LOL

Knew Your Nicks:
If you can’t trade Randle now how possible is to trade him after he asks for a trade without wasting a sweetener ?

We don’t HAVE to trade Randle. We just have to run out his contract. Shit, if we can’t trade him, we can even waive him after the deadline if he’s that bad.

If Randle can’t make or defend threes, he’s not a power forward in the modern NBA, and he shouldn’t be ahead of Mitch on the depth chart, obviously. Idk what else to say… it’s just a terrible fit for what seems like obvious reasons. Everyone questioned it at the time because we literally just got rid of Kanter, another big who can’t defend the rim or shoot threes.

Agree with Z-Man. If you have a hard no 3 policy you’re completely surrendering on him ever being anything close to worth his contract and you have a smaller Enes Kanter.

That may well be where his career is headed but since he’s still young, had a relatively encouraging season from 3 just a season ago, and has been a consistently decent FT shooter I think you still have to try to make it a workable shot for him.

The thing is, his 3 point shots this season were almost all wide open. And mostly bricks.

And I disagree that to play power forward in today’s NBA you have to shoot 3 pointers. Paul Millsap career 3 point attempts/game is 1.4, LaMarcus Aldridge .6., Christian Wood 1.6. All pretty good power forwards.

Randle just has to play smarter and get rid of the ball quicker on double teams and he can be pretty effective as a low post scorer.

That’s where I have a little bit of faith in Thibs. He’s not going to be afraid to challenge Randle. The current front office (excepting lame duck Perry) is not going to be beholding to him, and if Randle doesn’t buy in, I expect that Rose is gonna back Thibs up.

More likely, though, I think Thibs will get through to Randle. One of the things that Thibs is supposedly good at is breaking down film and showing players what they need to do and not do. Randle is not some long-term pseudo-max player who’s ass needs to be kissed, like Wiggins. He may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he works really hard and seems to care about winning. He just seems like he thinks winning is too dependent on him taking over, when that can’t be his role. But he’s really good at certain things and is a nightmare matchup for small-ball 4’s.

Paul Millsap career 3 point attempts/game is 1.4

Hasn’t been below 3 3PA/36 since 2012-2013

LaMarcus Aldridge .6

3.2 3PA/36 this year in response to concerns that he was becoming a dinosaur

Christian Wood 1.6

3.8 3PA/36 in the only year he was a relevant NBA player (this one)

By all means, trade Randle if you can, but it will probably have to be for a longer contract. Better to just move him to the bench and sign Wood or Bertans to start. Better yet, give Anthony Bennett a shot at the stretch 4 with a small contract. He was lighting it up in the g-league.

Trade Randle wasting a sweetener or trading him for a “worse” fit/contract is not what I’m saying.
But trade him for someone who’s gonna make this young squad better than he will/and fit better with new coach’s plan i believe is more desirable than setting 20M of cap space on fire.

I mean sure trade Randle if you can somehow get an asset back but if we have to deal with him for another year who cares? Randle’s okay, he’s good at some stuff. Try to get him more minutes at center in p-n-r or hope he got better at shooting 3s and don’t let him initiate the offense 18′ from the rim.

Maybe Thibs can get Randle to play some D? Yeah, at least, stop running the offense through him.

Not sure what the news caption here is.

“Knicks fans meet strong reaction to argument for patient rebuild”

https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1287551226049990656

Sigh

This guy is probably the reason we let Trier go. He’s gonna get a good, long look. His repertoire of offensive move is really impressive. If the 3 is for real, look out.

This guy is going to be a Thibs fave. Put him in the front line with an energy PG like Harper and transition wings like Dotson, Iggy and Knox/Harkless.

Let’s go Thibodeau!

Thibs used to be Isola’s source back in the day. I wonder if they’re still close. I guess we’ll find out if Isola suddenly starts breaking stories again.

in an already really crowded outfield…

So crowded that poor Clint Frazier — who would be starting for a lot of teams in this league — just got optioned down to the satellite squad in Scranton. Still hoping to see him home run in a major league game this season, while wearing his mask.

A favor. Let Team Optimism rule the day until we make a bad move under Rose.

I’m always Team Optimism but allow me to point out all the reasons why we should be optimistic about The Knicks right now.

1. We have 6 first round picks over the next 4 years.
2. Rose has hired good scouts, etc…to fill out the Bball operations team.
3. Thibs is a legitimately good coach. Look, we can argue if he was the best pick and there are flaws to him, like everyone. But people talk about bball changing and the modern NBA so much you would think the game is now played with two balls and a triangle hoop. Thibs still knows PLENTY of stuff about basketball. He will work his ass off and he will demand that the players work their ass off too. They will be prepared. Lost in all the Twolves talk is that they did improve under him and got worse when he left.
4. We have no real bad contracts and lots of cap flexibility. Sure, it would be great if some of Noah’s contract wasn’t still on the books but basically we have tons of room for maneuvering.
5. MITCH and RJ – hey, I’ll admit. They aren’t sure fire perrenial all stars in the making and I wish we had JA, but I think these 2 kids are the beginning of a foundation for us. And I believe they will thrive under Thibs.

So there are legitimate reasons for us to be optimistic.

From Berman:

However, after seven straight losing seasons, owner James Dolan wants victories. That’s why David Fizdale was fired so quickly after a 4-18 start. Tanking was not an option and Rose wants to prove his mettle and show free agents the Garden’s winning culture has been restored. That’s why Thibodeau is here and Kenny Atkinson became an also-ran.

lmao

1. Randle is good player that most teams would be happy and lucky to have. He’s just not a good player on a team with Mitch as your starting C and wings/guards that can’t shoot. If Mitch developed a KP-like outside game and created space and we had some players that could shoot a little, Randle’s TS% would get back to 60%, his TOs would drop, and he’d continue contributing on the boards. As the Knicks are presently constructed, he’d be better off coming off the bench.

Tanking was not an option and Rose wants to prove his mettle and show free agents the Garden’s winning culture has been restored. That’s why Thibodeau is here and Kenny Atkinson became an also-ran.

2. Berman must read this blog. I’ve been saying that all along and spelled it out clearly the other day.

Rose is not here to satisfy the fantasies of the tankers. He’ll die of old age before we rebuild that way. He’s here to develop some of the young players we have, continue drafting, potentially use some of the young players and picks as assets, and bring in guys that know how to play basketball, fit together, and can start winning. Then keep moving forward trying to get better each year using every option available.

That’s why I keep saying the biggest question is whether we have good basketball minds in the organization.

We may have a great coach.

We may have a very good cap guy.

We may have finally gotten rid of Mills and hopefully also reduced the influence of Perry.

But as far I can tell, outside just coaching with Thibs/Miller, we don’t have management people that actually understand basketball so we are drafting and bringing in the correct and complimentary free players.

Deeefense: hat’s why I keep saying the biggest question is whether we have good basketball minds in the organization.

We may have a great coach.

We may have a very good cap guy.

We may have finally gotten rid of Mills and hopefully also reduced the influence of Perry.

But as far I can tell, outside just coaching with Thibs/Miller, we don’t have management people that actually understand basketball so we are drafting and bringing in the correct and complimentary free players.

You kind of contradict yourself here. In addition, Rose hired an exceptional scout and others.

Beyond front office staff hires, Rose has made 4 moves:
Hiring Thibs
Waiving Trier
Signing Harper
Signing Pinson

So far, so good.

Now, we need to find out what our draft position is and find a starter and a rotation player from among the 3 picks, ppossibly by swapping draft position. That will be when we can get a better handle on what the FO is really thinking.

I think it’s fair to say that Rose/Thibs are not going to embrace a full-out tank. So barring injury and major trade developments, my guess is that we will be somewhere between 8-15 in 2021 draft position, plus somewhere around #20 with the Dallas pick. Sounds like we’ll be trying to emulate the Spurs, Warriors, Bucks, Raptors, Heat, Pacers, Nuggets, Jazz, etc…contending franchises who built contenders without abjectly tanking. The key is drafting smarter, not higher. Draft Donovan Mitchell, or one of the Collins’, or Bam instead of Frank. Draft Shai instead of Knox. Trade down instead of drafting RJ (not that I’m down on RJ, or know whether that was possible…). Rose seems to have a team that can do that if listened to.

Wow, MLB season might not even last a week. MLB.com has nothing up about the Marlins situation right now, but I’ve read that tonight’s Yankees game in Philly is cancelled. I guess they are trying to sterilize the visiting team clubhouse.

According to Eduardo Perez, an ESPN baseball announcer, traveling teams are creating more restrictive protocols. Quarantining teams in their hotel from the time of arrival until time to go to the ballpark. Apparently, the 113 page MLB protocol book has nothing for dealing with a spike of positive tests.

I guess you can add the Nets to a team who rebuild without top-of-the-lottery picks.

JK47:
Sending all the kiddies back to school in a few weeks is gonna go great doe!

Damn you, JK! Damn you!!

I’ve been staying away from the political talk on this website because quite frankly I’m not qualified enough to speak on any of it, but I do think it’s embarrassing that leaders in this country are willing to sacrifice life in order to rebuild an economy. The economy cannot bring people back to life, but lives can remake an economy. Sending children back to schools, most of which in urban areas are overcrowded and underfunded, is just more of the same bullshit I’ve come to expect from the leaders in this country.

We have yet to see the worst of this pandemic in the United States, and because people (on both sides) are not taking this threat seriously enough we will experience it longer than maybe any other country in the world.

Z-man:
What a shock that a FL team is having a COVID spike, given how brilliantly their governor has handled things.

This bipartisan talk is surely grounds for a 1000-year ban on Z-man, is it not?

But seriously, it’s nice to see the NBA looking like the rational league (relatively) during all of this.

I’ve been getting bombarded with emails from my Knicks rep about renewing my season tickets. And in a true spirit of generosity, they’ve assured me that if any games are played without fans they will provide a refund or credit.

Seriously, though, is there any chance there will be fans attending sporting events in the next 12 months (especially indoor events)? I get that the Knicks have to pretend that we’re going to have a normal season, but it’s ludicrous for them to ask for $$ at this point.

been thinking about the re-opening school thing a lot the last couple of weeks, it’s sort of stuck on my mind…for those of you who have young children you already know those first couple of weeks back you’re pretty much guaranteed your child is going to bring home something…

I need to find a good site which lists positivity rates by zip codes…I’m thinking if the zip codes the kid’s school serve has a positivity rate above 8% or so – best to keep them home…

I need to look again at what the “community” positivity rate the CDC lists as being too high for “safely” opening schools…I think it might be like 5% or something…

I think its a pretty low bar right now of being “qualified” to speak on politics when you take a look at who are the actual politicians that in theory are “qualified” to speak on politics…

Some wag on here, I think his name was JK something, said a few weeks back that baseball would start up and get shut down in a matter of weeks.

He’ll be back for another round of “I told you so’s” when the school openings turn into an unmitigated disaster.

I think its a pretty low bar right now of being “qualified” to speak on politics when you take a look at who are the actual politicians that in theory are “qualified” to speak on politics…

QAnon conspiracy theorists are winning GOP primaries and will soon be a sizable contingent of their House representation soon. Let that sink in.

The restart for 2020-21 will be a whole other undertaking, not sure if the bubble thing will work for a full 30-team season.

The NBA needs to cut the shit with “tradition” and start thinking creatively. Having a series of short seasons, group play, and tournaments would be a perfect experiment during this time. It would allow for “decompression” from the bubble and minimize the risk of another truncated season, while allowing the NBA to exploit its ridiculous influx of superstar power right now.

I don’t know if it’s possible due to TV contracts, and probably isn’t, but I would start looking at some shorter-term options that will have less a blue-balls impact if canceled. You’re going to see some real brand damage done if they can’t finish out their full-postseason approach and have to leave the title unclaimed.

Better to have a new kind of champion than none, IMO.

hey bo, i hope all is well for yourself and family…it’s funny, i use different “queues” to remember different posters…whenever i see your name now i think: Bo’s burgers from queens (i think that was where you had mentioned grabbing a burger together) – and, it makes me hungry for a burger 🙂

i mean we talk about stats all the time…the only way i can think to provide the kid’s mom with guidance is to try to find the numbers and use them as best as possible to make a rational decision to minimize risk as best as possible…

my faith in others making those choices for the kids is not so great…

Geo
Data and common sense need to be deployed. I know parents, who are forming pods to collectively homeschool their kids using tutors. Part of their vetting process is their knowledge of the other families’ behaviors about the virus. The same goes for your Godson’s school. You must have a sense of the culture and attitude of the community as it pertains to the virus, which largely informs the status of the virus. Then it becomes a question of the school and what protocols they have in place for dealing with the virus. The NYC principal’s union issued the most comprehensive list of questions concerning protocols that I have read ( it was posted on SCRIBD and if I can find the link I will post it). You can select the most important questions and ask the principal.
Btw, While I like the name Bo’s Burgers, the place I will be taking you to is Emmy Squared.

Geo
This NY Post article has the NYC Principals’ Questions embedded. I find it quite comprehensive.
https://nypost.com/2020/07/25/nyc-principals-union-lists-imperative-questions-on-school-reopening/

The school issue is obviously much more important than anything Knicks-related. But if you want to take your mind off Covid for a few, The Athletic has a very good article up from the T-Wolves beat writer about Thibs’ time there, what did and didn’t work, and why he thinks the X factor for Thibs succeeding or failing in New York will be Rose.

If anyone understands exactly what he is getting when hiring Thibodeau, it’s Rose. The two have known each other for years and helped bring Thibodeau to Minnesota. Rose was one of the most powerful and influential agents in the business at CAA, which represents Thibodeau, before leaving to run the Knicks. He also represented Towns, so he had a front-row seat for all of the drama that unfolded with the Timberwolves.

While Butler was orchestrating his exit, Thibodeau was digging in his heels and Towns was gritting his teeth, Rose was hearing it from all sides. He did not need to do any extra homework to see what went wrong in that situation because he was right in the middle of all of it. In giving Thibodeau a five-year contract to be his first head coach, Rose is making an emphatic statement that whatever happened in Minnesota could, at maximum, be only partially attributed to the coach.

Rose may also believe that his presence in New York will cover a lot of the holes that opened for Thibodeau in the Twin Cities. What Thibodeau needed more than anything with the Wolves was someone he respected who could alert him to the heat coming around the corner and help him address it.

I believe that Thibs can make Mitch into a second team all-nba defensive player. The rest of it, i don’t know.

But hey, the gm and the coach are on the same page.

I take issue with the idea that Thibs “flamed out” in Chicago. Their window of competing was simply closing after 5 successful seasons. He won 50 plus games every season he coached there despite the injuries. The Bulls blew up Jordan and company for god’s sake.

sorry al…you’ve done an amazing job recently to help us to not focus on all the trials surrounding us…there should be an oasis from constant stark reality…somewhere to speak of the more mundane like – basketball…

don’t give up on us…

i got something off-topic, but sort of interesting (to me anyways :)…a year or so ago had a chance to watch the two popes and just marveled at the acting jonathan pryce and anthony hopkins did, what a joy…

last night watched this flick from 2015 with christopher plummer and martin landau called remember – so cool to watch them act…

that must be really something to love your work so much that you continue to do it up until close to the end…

One thing I thought was really interesting in that Krawczynski piece was the idea that lots of teams function on a good cop, bad cop basis but that because Thibs was both coach and president and functionally the sole authority he was lacking a good cop to balance him out. There’s some logic to the idea that Rose (who obviously knows how to manage player relationships) can be an effective counterweight to Thibs. I still think there’s real schematic questions about Thibs but the article made me more hopeful that it can work from a personality standpoint.

I will say that I think the idea of Miller and Woodson as assistants is questionable to me. The “team of rivals” approach can occasionally work but having two former Knicks head coaches on the staff, neither of whom have a strong preexisting relationship with the head guy and knowing in advance that Thibs is likely to be polarizing at best with the players – it just looks like a recipe for drama and backbiting to me.

So, the U.S. higher number of infections is at least partly due to a higher level of testing. Meanwhile, Italy still has a significantly higher death rate. So Italy has certainly been more “efficient” at getting people killed from COVID.

In his infinite wisdom, The Great President Trump realized what no other world leader did: you can dilute your death rate by letting the virus run absolutely rampant among your entire population.

This of course gets far more people killed in total, and subjects far more total people to the short and long-term effects of Covid, than an approach that emphasizes actually suppressing the virus.

But hey, that’s a small price to pay for being able to ramble about mortality rates when confronted with the fact that your approach to the virus has been to wish it away.

“In his infinite wisdom, The Great President Trump realized what no other world leader did: you can dilute your death rate by letting the virus run absolutely rampant among your entire population.”

You…are not good at math. Or epidemiology. Or public policy if you think a higher death rate is somehow an indication of superior disease-control practices.

The mental energy people like you are going to have to begin exerting when you can’t just answer every question with “Orange Man Bad” is going to be enough to power human civilization for the next hundred years.

Mike

Miller is a friend of a friend of Thibs’, at least, as he worked as one of Jeff Van Gundy’s assistants on some of the US national teams in recent years. JVG has sung his praises recently, even though he’s clearly happy Thibs got the job. I can see Thibs and Miller work well together, especially since, as Swiftandabundant notes, Miller has a lot of experience with these kids. Woodson seems like the more problematic hire, but he also has never come across as a politician or a backstabber type, so if Thibs is okay with it, it doesn’t trouble me.

I think Woodson left the Clippers a season ago. News reports weren’t clear why.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23510613/mike-woodson-return-assistant-coach-la-clippers

Italy has a higher covid death rate than the the US. Italy is currently 6th highest in the world and the US is currently 11th. But it is also clear that Italy is on the upswing, while the US is in the throes of a massive wave that will inevitably raise their death rate higher, so going on a victory lap that the US has statistically handled the pandemic better than the most disastrous countries is, perhaps, a bit premature.

-Don

The last time Mike Woodson was the lead assistant he was the beneficiary of the Melo hissy fit at Linsanity and the jealous undermining of D’Antoni. While I don’t necessarily think he was somehow involved — though I also don’t necessarily think he wasn’t — I’ll never make my peace with that. He doesn’t avoid the putrid stench and he’ll forever be damaged goods with me.(*) I don’t want him around.

(*) As will Melo himself. Even the 54 wins didn’t wipe away the stench.

Not super psyched about a return of Woodson, can’t see any value add there. Maybe Thibs wants someone who’ll yell at the players for passing the ball. I wanna know who is it that’s shilling for Woodson?

going on a victory lap that the US has statistically handled the pandemic better than the most disastrous countries is, perhaps, a bit premature.

And the NYC death rate was a lot worse than what we’re seeing now in the south. Really, a lot of this is that docs know a whole lot more about how to effectively treat covid than they did in the spring. Death rates are down everywhere. It’s not an informative comparison, and it dimishes the danger of long term effects.

There’s a lot of obesity down here in the South, so I wonder if, as Covid spreads more, death rates might increase over time?

All the Knicks need now is some good basketball players

All the Knicks need now is some good basketball players

I mean, if you like that sort of thing.

I am more concerned right now with the players we have playing well.

Thibs has a good track record with young players willing to buy in (i.e., not KAT and Wiggins). I have no doubt he will iron out all the sloppy aspects of Mitch’s defensive game, for instance, and turn him from a highlight reel into a game-altering force on that end. He will use Frank to his full potential on defense, and hopefully Rose will assemble a roster that can cover for our beautiful Frenchman a bit on the other end. RJ’s improvement will probably depend more on his shot than anything, but he seems like a hard worker who will do everything he can to improve. Knox is probably a lost cause, especially with this coach. (Knox is also a hard worker; he just processes things way too slowly in the halfcourt, in addition to seeming woefully uncoordinated.) DSJ, also probably a lost cause. Who knows what we have in Iggy, Wooten, and Harper (or Lamar Peters, for that matter)? If Taj stays, we know what we’ll get from him. Bullock seems more a matter of health than coaching, if his option gets picked up.

The real question mark among returnees, as we’ve talked about, is Randle. But he’s also basically an expiring contract, so if he doesn’t agree to stop the stupid goddamn spin move, he can watch from the bench.

DSJ and Randle might be the only ones (and Payton, too, if he comes back). With the others, it’s less a matter of will than of ability. Can RJ shoot better? Can Frank do enough offensively as a wing to stay on the court? Can Knox simultaneously get much better at every single aspect of playing basketball? But all three will put in the work, I believe.

Don Leon leads Thibs into an empty training room. A player is lying on a gurney, a sheet draped over his face.
LR: “Tomasso, are you ready to do this service for me?”
TT: “What do you want me to do?”
LR: “I want you to use all your powers, and all your skills.” [pulls back sheet, revealing Kevin Knox’s face] “I don’t want his mother to see him like this.”

He turns and points to a TV monitor with a loop of game film of Knox getting torched over and over again on D.

“Look how they massacred my boy…”

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258933/Teams-Could-Sell-First-Round-Picks-To-Raise-Money

Okay, JD, start bidding…

Absolutely, and if teams are feeling poor, there are probably trades we could make that would help them financially too.

Maybe an additional first helps to trade up if we really have an eye on someone. But more generally, I think Rose needs to convince Dolan to use his surplus non-cap money to the Knicks’ advantage during these lean times.

Shut the f$#% up Donny

(had already spent 20 million Dolan bucks)

Donnie Walsh:
***I think Rose needs to convince Dolan to use his surplus non-cap money to the Knicks’ advantage during these lean times.***

As interesting as it would be to buy up draft picks, the reality is that teams are limited to spending a total of $3.5 million a year on “cash considerations”. $3.5 mil is what Golden State spent to buy the 2nd round pick that became Jordan Bell. ($3.5 mil just doesn’t go very far anymore, even when it has Dolan’s face on it).

well, that blows.

I vaguely remember that provision…maybe iserp brought it up in the past, he was always on top of that stuff.

This seems to indicate that teams are getting cash-strapped and need to get out of the tax and unload bad contracts. It also means that good players may be bought out and decent flyers will be waived. Probably just wishful thinking on my part…

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258929/Majority-Of-NBA-Teams-Have-Already-Maxed-Out-$325M-Credit

Pretty sure the cash limit is a pre-season thing, not per trade. But if it’s bad across the board perhaps they’ll adjust that rule for this offseason.

Yeah, the cash limit has been a major factor for the Knicks for years now. Dolan is an asshole, but he’s an asshole that used to be quite willing to spend money on draft picks and trades, but the cash limit was introduced seemingly specifically to stymie Dolan’s efforts.

The limit is $5.617 million this year, that includes all trades, not just draft pick trades.

meanwhile Macri and co brought up the name DJ Augustin as a possible “vet” FA signing. He is 32 but as a spot-starter replacement on a 1 year contract for Payton I would be fully good with that. His 3P shooting sort of fell off last year but still a 38% career 3P shooter who averaged 15 points and 6.6 assists per 36 last year. A perfectly average player who won’t cost much. And played for Thibs in Chicago in 13-14 where he had maybe his best season.

interestingly by RPM he was the #12 PG in the league this past season with most of his value on defense playing for Steve Clifford, who was also an assistant under JVG and stylistically is probably pretty similar to Thibs? Last year was #15, year before #27.

Like someone said, you only have so many roster spots for young players. If the Knicks do buy a pick, it will likely be used in a package to move up to get someone they have their eye on. In fact, they probably won’t leave this draft with more than two new players, especially because there’s likely to be some interesting undrafted options to put on the g-league team.

I guess the question is, do they use a Dallas pick to move up for LaMelo or buy another 2020 1st to do it? It probably behooves them to keep as much 2021 draft capital as possible, but we will see.

Even if the move up in the lottery and get LaMelo, they will still probably try to be aggressive and move up from 27 by packaging picks.

Z-man:
This seems to indicate that teams are getting cash-strapped and need to get out of the tax and unload bad contracts. It also means that good players may be bought out and decent flyers will be waived. Probably just wishful thinking on my part…

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/258929/Majority-Of-NBA-Teams-Have-Already-Maxed-Out-$325M-Credit

When people talk about how much sport teams appreciate in value as if that’s the correct measurement of how well owners are doing they are being very ignorant about finance. At times, people pay all sorts of crazy prices for businesses, stocks, real estate, sports teams etc.. Sometimes that’s just “greater fool” stuff.

What really matters is the free cash flow the business generates over time and the risk involved.

When you put up a billion or two to buy a team, you better be generating a ton of free cash flow or you are probably making mistake. You can’t assume a bigger dimwit is going to come along after you and pay even more. You need to get generate INVESTABLE CASH for taking risk with your capital. It’s likely many owners overpaid and are just finding that out now.

In some of the debates about the split of money between players and owners, I haven’t been particularly kind to players. This is why. When they get these huge contracts and other deals, it’s all cash without putting up any of their own money. There is no risk (unless you are a boxer, football player or something like that and are taking risks with health). The owners are taking huge risks. Sometimes those risks may be low probability events, but they eventually occur and bite you in the ass. They are getting bit by a shark right now.

We need to get lucky in the draft this year and get a top pick so we don’t have to trade up. It’s long overdue. I’d rather use the clips pick this year to move up. I know Dallas is a good up and coming team but Zinger is injury prone and they are one Doncic pulled hamstring or meniscus tear away from being a lottery team. Not that I want that to happen but I’d it did we’d be kicking ourselves for giving up that Dallas pick whereas we know for sure the clips pick will be a late first rounder.

>>> I guess what I’m asking is at what point does acquiring additional picks in this draft become a poor allocation of resources? <<<

Check out Saddiq Bey's draft profile. 45% from 3 and can defend 4 positions. Projected to go in the middle of round 1. Shades of Mikal Bridges, and not just because they both went to 'Nova.

I would love to steal him for cash.

If we came out of this draft with Hayes/Halliburton, Bey, and Vernon Carey Jr with the Clips pick, I would be over the moon ecstatic.

More than anything, I just hope that under Rose we are the kind of team that, if given the 15th pick in the draft for cash, would use it on a guy with Bey’s profile instead of Cole Anthony.

>>> But would Thibs be playing all three of those guys, on top of Mitch, RJ, Frank, and maybe one of Knox, Iggy, and DSJ? <<<

Other than Mitch and RJ, none of those guys are going to be hard to beat out. I don't even know if DSJ and Iggy are NBA players. I still think it's too early to give up on Knox and Frank, but the same can be said of them.

Bey is a solid plug-and-play wing, a potential Robert Covington. No one on this roster is so good we should pass that up.

I personally love Carey with the 26th pick. My draft philosophy at this stage of the rebuild is simply to get on base, not hit a home run. Carey is going to be a good player in this league and offer Jarrett Allen value in the late 1st. Even if his impact would be diminished somewhat by being behind Mitch, he would be useful in a trade down the line. I would so much prefer that to taking a swing on a high-upside athlete with no track record of success in college.

Hey – Frank got a call-out (in a good way!) from Zach Lowe in his column today!

(umm….RJ got a call out too but not in a good way…)

But would Thibs be playing all three of those guys, on top of Mitch, RJ, Frank, and maybe one of Knox, Iggy, and DSJ? He’s not kid-averse, but that is also a lot of youngsters for one rotation, and I imagine a bunch would just be sent to Westchester to get some run.

Agreed. I’m pretty sure that if the plan was for three rookies and three or four other developmental guys to be major pieces in the rotation then Thibs would not have been the head coach hire. That’s a total rebuild/tank lose 65+ games next year type of roster you’d be talking about at that point. My expectation is that the roster is going to look much closer to this year with a mixture of vets and young guys and at least gestures being made towards respectability (even if those gestures are mostly meaningless). If they draft even two guys who should be getting minutes next year (i.e. not a draft and stash or a guy who clearly is going to be in the G league for a season) then they’re going to need to make some tough decisions on the holdover young guys.

. My expectation is that the roster is going to look much closer to this year with a mixture of vets and young guys and at least gestures being made towards respectability (even if those gestures are mostly meaningless).

Yeah, it’s probably going to me more of the same bullshit we’ve watched for 20 years. If you replace the mediocre vets we have on the roster with some different mediocre vets and a different coach you’re going to get the same mediocre results. You need good players to win in the NBA. The Knicks have one good player.

Yeah we have loads of room, I’m just not sure about #1, which is why I’m not sure we’re going to be playing a lot of kids. I mean the Knicks are obviously going to have to rebuild, because they suck and don’t have any long term contracts, but I’m not sure they’re going to be targeting a youthful rebuild.

I may be optimistic and projecting my own ideals, but I expect Thibs’ first year to be one where he works closely with all the young players to figure out who he has. I don’t think he’s going to overplay vets just to avoid losing 60 games. By the end of year 1, the kids who have not responded well to his tutelage will be gone, and we’ll seek to build around those who remain.

He just signed a 5 year contract. He isn’t going to get fired after half a season just because the team is losing. I think the idea that Thibs is an all in “win now” move is a little half baked.

I do think the FO might try to upgrade the roster this off season, which, honestly, is what they should try to do every off season. I just don’t think they’re going to hamstring the future by going all in with a Melo type trade or overpaying for win now vets like Phil did with Noah, Lee, etc.

I honestly think our franchise, as a whole, has VERY SLOWLY been moving in the right direction and learning lessons from its past mistakes. Its been a long road and there is still a lot of work to do. But I think the organization has learned from its mistakes and is positioned quite well. Jsut in time for the world to end!

It’s hard to know exactly what to make of Thibs in terms of rebuilding. He does have a good rep with lots of players for his developmental work when he was an assistant. While his Chicago teams had some guys who were fairly early in their careers and many who improved significantly under Thibs, they were mostly older – the only guys under-25 who got rotation minutes in his entire tenure were really Rose, Butler and then Mirotic in his final year.

In Minny when he had personnel control I think it’s pretty obvious what his preference was – he inherited a team with a ton of young guys, the first year his top 10 in minutes included a 20-year old, three 21 year-olds, a 22 year-old and a 24 year-old. And they lost a ton of games (basically no improvement from the Sam Mitchell version of the team) and he subsequently veered heavily towards an older version of the team, adding Butler, Teague, Gibson, Crawford and eventually Rose in that next season.

Obviously he won’t have personnel control here and he has enough developmental successes on his resume to think he can do a fine job with that aspect, but I think the Minny tenure is why people question whether he’s really interested in a full rebuild type situation.

I expect year 1 of Thibs to be like the two years of D’Antoni prior to the summer of LeBron. His focus will be on establishing the franchise’s identity and turning the young guys into the kind of pieces that either will attract a star or can be used to trade for one.

Realistic or not, they’re going after Giannis.

I actually wrote out the same response to strat but dropped it because I wasn’t in the mood.

I really tried my best to ignore it but it’s such an easily rebuttable proposition I couldn’t help it. I did ignore his bizarre anti-Woodson shpiel despite sensing a bit of a pattern in which Knicks retread coaches/executives he’s willing to defend to the death and which ones make him downright vitriolic.

Anyway, happy to shift back to basketball now.

There is no risk (unless you are a boxer, football player or something like that and are taking risks with health). The owners are taking huge risks.

lol almost as good as “Democrats are less free-market than Russian oligarchs”

***He just signed a 5 year contract. He isn’t going to get fired after half a season just because the team is losing.***

You’re only saying this because it’s never happened before… At least, not in New York… At least, not in the past 15 years… At least…

I mean, there was that ONE time, where Fizdale was fired after coaching only 104 games of a 4/$22,000,000 contract….

And, I guess there was that OTHER time, where Derek Fisher was fired after coaching only 136 games of a 5/$25,000,000 contract…

And then there was that Lenny Wilkens guy, who was fired after only coaching 81 games of a 4/$20,000,000 contract…

Thats it.

Oh, no, wait. Then there was that other guy. Larry something. I only vaguely remember him. Maybe it was a dream? But I feel like he was like this Hall of Fame legend who had won basketball games everywhere he went, and had just won a championship with a team that didn’t even have any superstars on it (I know, right!). Anyway, this guy was like, SOOOOO bad at coaching, that he was fired in the first year of a 5/$60,000,000 contract. But, now that I think about it, yeah, you’re right. That’s just crazy. It couldn’t have really happened. I mean, fire a guy with 4/$48,000,000 on his contract? All because he couldn’t win with Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, and Jarrod Jeffries?

That couldn’t have happened. Certainly not in a New York.

Must have been a dream.

Those were all 4 year coaching contracts and they all lasted at least one season. I believe in my original post I said he wasn’t going to get fired after half a season, so you aren’t really saying anything.

No Taj? Really?

Taj is the one vet I really hope they do bring back. Taj is a good vet to have on a young team. He isn’t playing that many minutes per game either. Dude plays the right way and is a good role model vet for the young players.

But then wouldn’t you have to resign him for more than one year? If you don’t pick up the team option and then ask him to come back for less, why would he stay?

I’m ambivalent about the team options for the vets (except for Ellington and Portis, whom I forgot about). I don’t think it would be the worst idea to just run the same team back for the most part with our new draft picks and see what happens.

No Taj? Really?

Taj is the one vet I really hope they do bring back. Taj is a good vet to have on a young team. He isn’t playing that many minutes per game either. Dude plays the right way and is a good role model vet for the young players.

What TNFH said. I don’t mind bringing him back, but it would be at a lower salary for 1 year. I just don’t want to see the FO doing ‘favors’ for marginal players. (tinfoil hat activated) It would tell me that this FO is valuing nebulous player relations over smart cap management. We already saw similar stuff with Chris Smith and CAA back in the day. And it didn’t help the Knicks reputation among players at all.

Btw it just occurred to me….

Is the 2021 draft going to be the biggest crapshoot of all time? I’m assuming there isn’t going to be any high school or NCAA basketball for the 2020-21 season. And even if there is, it’s not likely to be normal enough to provide meaningful data.

EDIT: I think players have the option of joining the G-League, which will make sense for many. Or they can just play overseas somewhere.

As I’ve said before, we need roster slots for young players. All our roster spots were full last year. We did give up Trier and Allen, but they are already replaced. We have three picks this year, that means we need three slots and have to give up or otherwise lose three players. We also have Iggy, Wooten and Lamar Peters who might earn time with the big club. So we have to not pick up the options or waive at least three players. My tentative thoughts are Smith, Ellington and Gibson. I was torn between Portis and Gibson, but the three point shooting and the thought that Portis might improve under Thibs made choose to keep him. I know he’s overpaid, but it’s only for a year and I really don’t expect we’ll red them money for free agents.

I agree about Payton and Bullock. Even if we draft a point guard we still need more than one. Bullock is too good a deal to throw away, but I’d be open to trading him.

Owen: RJ Barrett was butt this year. Not a lost cause but I am happy no one is pretending he played well this year.

I, for one, think his shooting was butt, but he played rather well overall for a 19yo, especially on D. He’s a pretty far cry from being a lost cause. Just not looking like a future star.

That’s exactly what I expect and that’s also exactly why I don’t think Thibs was the best pick for this team, at this point in the win curve.

i know right, even when we obviously sucked jimmy d didn’t want to tank, no way with thibs are we not trying for an 8th seed…

Taj loves NYC, is a big Thibs fan, and has become a mentor to our best young player, so I don’t think he’s going anywhere. And honestly, he’s still decent at what he does. He’s a fine backup center. OTOH, Portis is just garbage. I’ve seen more than enough of that guy. I even prefer Randle.

I think they will keep either Dotson or Bullock, but not both. I also think DSJ could be given a fresh start with Thibs.

***Look, I don’t know what will happen. Just saying I think its unrealistic to think Thibs will get fired within the first season of his 5 year contract especially when Rose is his boss.***

Yeah, I know what you’re saying, and I do agree with you. It’s just, this IS New York, and Dolan IS still in charge, and as long as this fact remains, the potential for disaster is ubiquitous.

(And Larry Brown WAS effectively fired during the first year of his 5 year ($60,000,000!) contract. Dolan and Isiah were just trying to build their case for disputing the contract and not paying the $40+ million owed on it. At one point he was barred from the practice facility and held press conferences in a median in Westchester, where he referred to himself as a “dead man walking” (even though he was on dialysis and wasn’t really walking much at all.) it was such a perplexing, how-low-can-we-go episode, and the sad thing is, nothing since then has changed in NY, and the answer to how-low-can-we-go remains largely unanswered.)

wasn’t there strong support here for mo harkless for a while…or, was that just because of his salary?

is bullock better than harkless, or just has a better existing salary…

It’s not that we don’t have room but for every new player we have to let someone go.

Don’t Bullock and Harkless play different positions with Bullock being a forward and Bullock a guard?

Nobody is saying we don’t have room for more picks, but that if we do make a bunch of picks this year to go along with the guys who are already here you’re either (A) going to have to pare down the existing stable of young guys somewhat or (B) play with an extremely young roster/rotation. (B) just doesn’t seem like what Thibs was brought here to do. (A) is probably what’s going to happen, and in some sense they’ve already started with Trier but he barely played this year so it doesn’t really clear any minutes. New regimes are often more skeptical of the young guys who were there before they got there than they would be if they’d made the pick themselves and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see anyone other than RJ or Mitch moved at the draft.

Is it even possible to renegotiate Taj’s contract? If we decline his option, doesn’t that mean that there is a period of time during which we can’t re-sign him? Clearly he’s an overpay at the option. He’s better than a minimum player, though. At $5 million, he’s probably an asset at the deadline.

Also, as bad as DSJ has been, a guy like Kira Lewis – who everyone is raving about – doesn’t statistically profile to be much better than Dennis, and he’s mocked as high as top-10 on some boards.

I guess what I’m saying is that this isn’t a great draft, and there’s probably no good reason to sell low on our young guys. Even if we draft LaMelo or another pg, we could still keep DSJ and Elfrid if Frank moves to the wing.

Unfortunately, the likelihood of the Knicks trading for a low-grade “star” like Zach Lavine seems fairly likely (as a way to put butts in seats, but also as a way to clear the glut of forgettable young guys we now employ).

Oof can you imagine the shooting lines of a LaMelo/Lavine/RJ lineup?

Also, I caught some of the Memphis-Miami scrimmage and continue to believe we should target De’Anthony Melton in restricted free agency. He is literally the idealized version of Frank Ntilikina despite them being the exact same age. I imagine Memphis matches anything reasonable but it’s worth a shot.

Things learned from basketball reference today:

1. Play index is gone.

2. Eddy Curry’s career 3 point percentage is .565 points higher than Steph Curry’s.

3. Zach LaVine’s career similarity scores top ten is peppered with a who’s who of NBA greats like Dick Farley, Lorenzo Lomar, Eldridge Recasner, Ken Charles, Mervin Johnson, Tyus Jones, Oliver Taylor, and our own Pablo Prigioni and Jerian Grant.

Donnie Walsh: Zach LaVine’s career similarity scores top ten is peppered with a who’s who of NBA greats like Dick Farley, Lorenzo Lomar, Eldridge Recasner, Ken Charles, Mervin Johnson, Tyus Jones, Oliver Taylor, and our own Pablo Prigioni and Jerian Grant.

Those scores in general are too abstruse for me. But I am not as down on LaVine as most. His shooting is improving…career .375 from 3…and he’s getting to the line and converting from there. He has averaged 5 rebs, 4+ assists and 1.5 steals per 36 the last couple of years…turns the ball over too much but those aren’t terrible stats for a SG. It looks like his D is bad, but I don’t know enough about it. He’s getting paid Julius Randle money, is that so bad?

Taj is not a traditional big. He’s more of a position-less big. So I’m not sure if the logic you are using applies to him. But in either case, having a player of his skill level and intelligence for $5 million is not a problem.

Taj is a position-less big defensively, maybe. Offensively? Not so much.

do you think pistons fan are currently debating whether to resign john henson. you guys should stop wasting time worrying about roster slots for reggie bullock and bobby portis and instead start drafting the melton rfa offer sheet.

If the 6 rotation-level players we retain are Randle, Mitch, RJ, Frank, Payton, and Bullock, then that gives us exactly one starter-level talent (Mitch), maybe two if you count Randle. There is still hope for RJ, but not the other three.

So essentially, all we need are two starting guards. Easy peasy!

memphis has been my favorite team to watch all year. i was bummed to see winslow go down with some kind of serious hip issue. his injury woes are adding up.

mikal looked great today against toronto. he kind of looked like the best version of covington out there.

Harkless is a free agent. He’s a nice enough player, but with the FA class what it is and the demand for wings in the league I imagine he’ll get a good offer from a better team.

It’s kind of funny how we talk about veteran mentorship and all that. Well, the Knicks have had, over the last few years, a shitton of coaches and veterans to mentor Frank, RJ and Knox and they’re all dogshit at basketball, still.

We don’t need Taj Gibson. We need the next Taj Gibson, 12-13 years younger than his old ass.

I don’t know what Rose is planning to do but I fear there will be so many vets people will mistake the Knicks for a rescue shelter.

Has Thibs lengthened his rotations in the last few seasons? Cause I’m expecting a 9 man rotation that’s really just 8 with some filler, outside of a couple minutes of garbage time. But you know, perhaps that has changed.

If LaVine is the “explosive slasher DRose of 2020” in Thibs mind then expect a Frankenstein replica of the 2010’s Bulls built as weeks go by.
We’ve got the Boozer in Randle, we may get Rose in LaVine, we may have Noah in the making in Mitch…Frank can be Brewer….RJ maybe Deng?
Korver seems hard to find tho

Nba-Iggy looks like Thibs Bulls’ Scalabrine so far but i believe he can be a very useful player if he finds his rhythm.

Korver is a spot up Buddha! A shooting God. not guard!

alsep73: Oh I hear that in Minnesota, he favored more of a hockey system, with five men on and five min Play here than Minnesota, he favored more of a hockey system, with five men on and five men off. 10 total.

you drinkin bud?

you drinkin bud?

That’s what I get for doing talk to text. And not proofreading. The point is, he apparently played a 10 man rotation in Minnesota, with two 5-man units alternating.

You shouldn’t give that many minutes to Andrew Wiggins if you’re trying to win basketball games. Just my two cents.

alsep73: That’s what I get for doing talk to text. And not proofreading.

Just gratuitous needling of a highly respected wordsmith, pay me no mind. If it makes you feel any better, yesterday I sent an impassioned plea to the Chancellor to not have students return to school buildings in September, only to notice a glaring typo after the fact.

Ah man..I just watched a short film session on Thibs’ Bulls team defense in comparison to having KAT anchor it in Minny..
It was enough to salivate over Mitch’s prospects with Thibs’ coaching. Man oh man! He’s twice the athlete Noah was with the Bulls, and his defensive IQ id pretty high for a young big who played no college hoops. Anybody else feeling that way?

Hm LaVine does have some pretty sick in-game dunks under his belt… would be fun to have him in the Garden. I think we’d have to give up our lottery pick for him though.

BigBlueAL:
Wiggins was the 1st overall pick in the draft and one of the most highly touted prospects out of high school since arguably LeBron.You don’t think in his 3rd and 4th NBA seasons he’s not gonna get a ton of minutes??

From October 2017, after Thibs coached Wiggins for a year and then was part of the braintrust that signed him to a 5-year max extension:

Tom Thibodeau has been by Wiggins’ side since taking over as head coach and president of basketball operations.

“We’re very excited that Andrew has decided to commit his future to the Timberwolves,” said Timberwolves President of Basketball Operations and Head Coach Tom Thibodeau. “We feel strongly that he is just scratching the surface of the player he will become. Andrew is among the elite young talents in our league and the sky is the limit for him. We look forward to watching his development in the coming years.”

Hopefully we won’t be reading the same quote after Knox signs a max deal…

TheClashFan:
Apparently the Knicks were pretty impressed with Jay Scrubb after an interview.

Wait til they see him play 3-on-3

hopefully thibs can help develop at least two of these guys in to a solid nba starter:
frank
dsj
mitch
kevin
rj

pretty good chance he’s halfway there already…

I’m a little worried about his past playoff performances

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
I’m a little worried about his past playoff performances

?

figured as much…

I like the idea of getting a shooting guard. RJ needs to play the 3. I dunno if Levine is the one, but at least it would show some understanding of the roster.

I think the original idea was to trade Randle for Levine straight up. That wouldn’t set us back: we’d have traded one starter quality guy for another, and it would give us a better fitting roster. I would go for that, although I worry about Levine’s character compared to Randle’s, but not for adding in substantial extra stuff in the deal.

I think the original idea was to trade Randle for Levine straight up.

Well if we’re just assuming the other team in a trade doesn’t have to agree we can set our sights much higher!

Thanks, Bo. Every year I tell myself not to care about stupid awards, and every year, I get upset anyway.

It’s sort of like rooting for the Knicks, come to think of it.

(Also, I realize I should’ve changed my display name after I came out of the anonymity closet last year. Belatedly done.)

I have a feeling that Thibs is going to want an opportunity to coach Randle up. I also doubt that anything is going to happen with LaVine, he’s a pretty good player on a decent contract so why would CHI try to ditch him?

also if we go after jordan clarkson then we know the thibs-crawford episode has deep and yucky roots

I think Dunn has worn out his welcome in Chicago and if we could get him at a $5-$6M AAV that could be great value.

He, like Melton, would be an easy way to get the idealized version of Frank Ntilikina without having to rely on Frank Ntilikina to make rather unprecedented improvements.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-contracts/

Fun, and sad.

Frank and Porzingis have the same WAR/$M, lol

The lack of Knicks in the stinkers box should be hailed as our greatest victory of the last 20 years

Draft notes: Deni Avdija just won the Israeli League MVP after leading his team to a title. He’s beginning to look like one of the safest picks in the lottery. I wouldn’t be mad at adding him.

ptmilo:

john konchar – this is my favorite idea.he is sorta ron baker 2.0.he is an unimpressive athlete but a very smart potential two way player.he’s an oddly awesome rebounder, a good passer, a smart and active defender, and a decent 3pt shooter.his nba resume is paper thin so obviously i mean this as a possible deep value option.

I like that idea. I wonder what it would take to get him?

Shams:

Sources: Zero NBA players have tested positive for coronavirus out of 344 tested at Orlando campus since last results were announced July 20.

Consecutive testing rounds where no new player has tested positive.

So far, the bubble is working…

Strat 2.0

Alan – totally agree with your take on the Emmy”s and Better Call Saul. Especially the snub of Rhea Seehorn, who was just outstanding this season.

Good to see Watchmen recognized though, that show was a mind blowing treat week after week.

According to 538’s metric, Frank Ntilikina developed into a barely positive NBA player during his age 21 season.

It said he was slightly above replacement level (which is still a nice improvement for Frank), I’m not sure if that’s a positive.

Actually most Knicks are roughly fairly paid according to chart except for Robinson (underpaid) and maybe Portis and Randle.

I don’t think that’s what it shows. It’s a bit confusing, but it has the Knicks paying Portis and Gibson 25 million dollars for zero wins above replacement, which is a huge waste of money. Even Randle, on a bad deal, was more productive for less money.

Payton was decently productive at his salary, and Mitch is on a good deal (would have even been better if they played him more), and that’s about it.

DRed: I don’t think that’s what it shows.It’s a bit confusing, but it has the Knicks paying Portis and Gibson 25 million dollars for zero wins above replacement, which is a huge waste of money.Even Randle, on a bad deal, was more productive for less money.

Payton was decently productive at his salary, and Mitch is on a good deal (would have even been better if they played him more), and that’s about it.

I just looked at the rough trend line for all players in the league and how the Knicks compared to it. Only Robinson Randle and Portis are outliers. I don’t understand why you are comparing Randle’s salary to the sum of two other players. Portis is overpaid, but filled a need as I described above. Gibson is overpaid but not by as much, so I didn’t mention him. I agree with those above who say he could be replaced easily.

Brian Cronin:
I’d be stunned if Rose kept Portis for next season. How in the world would you not be better off giving his roster spot to a young player? He has no future, why in the world would you overpay to have Bobby Portis suck for you? It makes no sense. Gibson at least has the mentor stuff. That’s not smart, either, but it’s something. Portis isn’t even a mentor (unless you want boxing tips).

+1

Deni Avdija is probably the best player in this draft, and has ties to the Knicks as he played with Amar’e Stoudemire this season (and I think Amar’e’s relationship with Dolan is a good one). He’ll likely never be a CAA client or a World Wide Wes guy, but I see him as a perfect fit between RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson. I’m currently leaning towards Avdija, Vassell, and Toppin over every point guard not named LaMelo Ball, and then I’d take Grant Riller or Tre Jones at the back of the first round.

Every time I look at Avdija’s numbers I’m underwhelmed. He’s a SF who has a really shaky shooting stroke, his rebounding isn’t good enough to play PF, and his passing is underwhelming for a wing who has a rep of a good passer.

He strikes me as the next Mario Hezonja.

Alan:
Wasserman at B/R suggests that if the Warriors win the lottery, they’ll want to trade down, both to save money and because neither LaMelo nor Wiseman fit what they want/need for next season. Given all the smoke about Rose wanting LaMelo — LaVar wanting his son(s) in NYC — I wonder how much it would cost to move up from 6 (or worse). All 3 of this year’s picks? Less? Would we have to throw in a Mavs pick?

I don’t think LaMelo is worth trading up for. But there’s so little consensus on this draft it may be all over the place in valuations and what teams are willing to offer. I’d guess it’ll cost at least our 1st and the Clips 1st because there will be at least a couple GM’s that think LaMelo is the next Doncic.

IMHO, next year’s Dallas pick should be closely guarded. Next year’s draft should be loaded with the additional HS talent and we should be able to grab some good players late because of the increased uncertainty from what I assume will be a shortened seasoned.

Just what we need, another player who can’t shoot.

Not a big fan of Avdija, he reminds me way to much of Hezonja. Guys I’d take over him: Edwards, LaMelo, Wiseman, Haliburton, Okongwu, Toppin, and Achiuwa above him. and then it becomes more murky for me.

I think Avidja is an interesting player, but he just isn’t a consistent enough shooter. I know that he could learn and then he would turn out to be a steal, but I’m just tired of these guys where we have to hope that they learn how to shoot. We already have that in Barrett, I want a guy who actually can shoot from the get go.

Sorry Glass, I’m not convinced. And definitely not interested in LaMelo, much less trading up. If we’re getting LaMelo to throw lobs to Mich, Thibs should just make Elfrid and the whole team do that — it doesn’t take a specialist. If you love his cross courts to the corners for the three, who’s standing over there for the Knicks? Exactly nobody, at least nobody who can make them regularly.
I want shooters in this draft. This is a shooter’s league, and we don’t have any.

Gallo shot 40% from 3 and 85% from the line in his last year in the Italian League.

Avdija is a sub 60% free throw shooter!

He could obviously learn to shoot, and in which case, he’d be a stud, agreed. But I don’t want the risk.

I want shooters in this draft.

i agree with what you say raven, who than is that though?

swiftandabundant:
In the 21st century, it would probably be Marbury. Those teams were not good but he was the best PG we’ve had (that played a full season).You could also throw in Ray Felton’s half season in 2010 before the Melo trade?

Agreed, and I’m still pissed that D’Antoni banished him when he was 10X better than Chris Duhon.

I also think we should be prepared for the Knicks to flip the Porzingis assets sooner than we’d like. In order to win that trade we need to get a player back who is better than Porzingis, and it doesn’t look like we’ll get that guy if we hold onto the picks. I’m sure Dolan is still keeping tabs on that and may want Rose and Wesley to move in and get a guy he can wave in Stefan Bondy’s face.

***(*) Questions for the more statistically-minded members of our silly family: 1)Who have had the best point guard seasons for this team in the 21st century? 2)What was the last genuinely good point guard season we’ve had? Derek Harper? Even Charlie Ward never seemed much worth writing home about, at least offensively. Hard to believe this team once had both Mark Jackson and Rod Strickland at the position at the same time.***

Marbury in 2005. He was legitimately good that year.

But, yeah, outside of that one year (and Doc Rivers In 1993), it’s been a sad, sad, sad past 30 years at that position in NY.

Agreed, and I’m still pissed that D’Antoni banished him when he was 10X better than Chris Duhon.

He was a disruptive fool and significant part of an extremely dysfunctional organization.

Sometimes you have to take a step backwards to go forward. Moving on from Marbury to higher IQ and higher character players was a no brainer long term decision .

The mistake of that administration was going “all in” on Lebron and then bringing in Amare to save face. That ultimately lead to giving up way too much for Melo. They had to take a shot at Lebron, but they should have realized he wan’t going to come to a bad rebuilding team (same mistake we keep making) and had a plan to add players that worked with Gallo, Chandler, Lee, etc.. It would have taken a long time (as the current rebuild has and will continue to) but if they would have kept adding draft picks and used cap space to add quality players eventually they would have gotten somewhere. Walsh and D’Antoni both understand basketball. They acted like promised Lebron and the only way to save their jobs was to get desperate.

If the Knicks get Avdija, I get dibs on his nickname: the Kosher Unicorn.

BTW, he’s apparently unguardable. It says so right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU7a9qUf49k

Alan:
Thanks, guys. I’ve mostly blocked out the idea of Marbury as a good player, because his arrival was basically the first domino of the calamity that Isiah wrought on the franchise. But, yeah, he could still ball early on here.

Yeah, the pre-Vaseline eating phase of his career was pretty encouraging.

Brian Cronin: The way he scumbagged Marbury was despicable. If you’re going to bench a guy, you fucking tell him you’re going to bench him. You don’t play him in the rotation all throughout camp and then say right before the first game of the regular season, “Oh, yeah, by the way, we’re never going to play you.”

I agree with that part, but I’m close to 100% sure we don’t know the whole story.

I’d bet my life against a dollar that D’Antoni wanted no part of Marbury right from the start and made that very clear to Walsh and Dolan, But he was the “name” on the team and they either couldn’t or Dolan didn’t want to unload him. So MDA was waiting for Marbury to give him an excuse to get rid of him. To our knowledge Marbury never gave him that excuse. That’s why it looks so bad. But that does not mean we know what was going on behind the scenes. Marbury is an idiot that did a lot of things we didn’t know about until later. It’s not like anyone was going to bad mouth him on the way out the door.

So MDA was waiting for Marbury to give him an excuse to get rid of him. To our knowledge Marbury never gave him that excuse. That’s why it looks so bad.

I think that’s likely accurate, but that’s why it was so bad. He made up his mind that Marbury couldn’t change. Marbury then changed and he still punished him. It was outrageous. It was similar to how he punished Nate Robinson because Nate was a moron and then brought him back without any change in Robinson’s attitude or game. I think D’Antoni is a very talented coach, but boy, he could certainly be a dick sometimes, too.

Marbury in the 2004-05 season was a legit All-Star caliber player and that was by far the best season by a Knicks PG since Mark Jackson’s 2nd season as a Knick. Ward had 2 very good season in 1997-98 and 1999-00 even though the raw numbers might not look it. I didn’t realize but he was in the Top 10 in steals back-to-back seasons and lead the league in DBPM in 1997-98. Back then it was generally considered that Ward was the more efficient, better at running the offense PG and Childs was the better defender and clutch shooter when the reality was Ward was just the better overall player period. I did love Childs though cause he was tough as shit and didn’t back down to anybody, just ask Tim Hardaway and of course Kobe!

Welp, I can’t think of more than a handful of sequels that were better than the first movies (“The Godfather II” is a popular choice).

Part II is definitely better than Part 1, but the first is a great film, obviously. Empire is better than A New Hope, Dark Knight better than Batman Begins, Mad Max: Fury Road is one of the greatest action films in American cinema (although I wouldn’t really call it a sequel any more than I would Blade Runner: 2077 — more a reboot in the same world) and of course, the Harry Potter films hit their stride around Prisoner of Azkaban, although the source material is significantly better, and the actors finally of an age where they don’t unintentionally make me laugh out loud in every scene.

I have strong feelings about people who think that Aliens is better than Alien, or T2 was better than The Terminator. They are not fond feelings.

Funny how nearly every movie mentioned is in the action/adventure list.

Jowles got me on Fury Road

Derek Harper and Rod Strickland were both very good.

Man, I could go off on how Dantoni/Walsh screwed up those 2 seasons while they were just clearing cap space in the hopes of Lebron. To Dantoni’s credit, they did develop Gallo and Chandler and I liked the rest of the 2010 kid crew with Moz, Fields…but what a waste of 2 years all so we could max Amare and trade it all for Melo.

Walsh should have demanded Marbury start so that they could’ve upped his trade value. Remember, The Knicks under Dantoni with Crawford and ZBo started out 6-3 before Walsh then traded them both for Al Harrington and bunch of garbage that never even played. Crawford, a perrenial 6th man of the year candidate and ZBo, who just 2 seasons later turned into an all star with Memphis.

They should have started Marbury and let that team play till the trade deadline to see what they got under Dantoni’s system. That could’ve upped the trade value for all of those guys even if we did eventually trade them all. Or better yet, the team maybe could have continued to play well and that would have attracted free agents on its own.

wetbandit:
Jowles got me on Fury Road

cars II vs car I and toy story II and toy story…in the pixar universe ….are healthy debates as to which are better…for that matter despicable me 2 vs 1 is close….after the second one most go downhill….

Wrath Of Khan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Star Trek: The Motion Picture

I have strong feelings about people who think that Aliens is better than Alien, or T2 was better than The Terminator. They are not fond feelings.

Then you won’t be fond of me when I say Aliens is one of the greatest sci-fi movies ever made, better than the original. It grabs you from moment one and doesn’t let go. And Terminator 2 is almost as good as The Terminator, the special effects for its time were insane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLfFf4vB-38

I know this is a highlight reel, but I’m seeing a guy who is comfortable driving into the paint, using hesitation moves, getting to the rim (and getting his hand right to the backboard on driving layups), and shooting from all over the floor. He doesn’t look like a surefire superstar, but he looks like a guy who has great timing and keeps his eyes up when trying to break defenses down in the PnR. I’d be worried about the shooting form if it didn’t go in so damn much. And from this video, it looks like he doesn’t play out of control or bail himself out of bad decisions with highlight-reel, high-difficulty shots. His 2018-19 season was absurd in his assist-to-turnover ratio (125 to 28), and he blew his assist rate out of the water later year, albeit with a sizable increase in TO.

To my mind, he’s easily the safest pick among the guards in the lottery. He may not be a Doncic, but it’s hard to imagine him being unable to toss lobs to elite athletes like Mitch.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: To my mind, he’s easily the safest pick among the guards in the lottery. He may not be a Doncic, but it’s hard to imagine him being unable to toss lobs to elite athletes like Mitch.

We may view things differently, but I’ll sign off on this one too.

He almost looks like a college version of what we hope Frank becomes at the pro level in a couple of years. They might even be good together in 3-4 years with RJ at 3.

The Glass Half Rebuilt:
This guy can’t remind you too much of Mario Hezonja

Avdija can pass, he can defend, he passes some key stat tests like being >50% from 2 and having >2 stls&blocks/36. He’s much quicker than we want to give him credit for, has a decent face up game and projects to be a good floor spacer. I look at him and see some Gallo, some Tatum (sounds like high praise but this kid was the Israeli League MVP at 19 and a FIBA U20 Tournament MVP at 18), and that gets me really pumped. He’s also been a professional forever and I bet he’d take to Thibs style and culture better than, I don’t know, Cole Anthony.

He’s #2 on my draft board behind LaMelo Ball, and that’s just because I think LaMelo Ball’s ceiling is Penny Hardaway. Avdija has the resume and the film of a pretty high lottery prospect in most years.

Those Avdija numbers actually look remarkably close to Hezonja’s Euroleague numbers, which is why I made the comparison. If Avdija’s shooting really did improve he might be worth the risk, but his poor FT% makes me wary. His total 3p% so far is sub .300 including EuroLeague and Israel. So Avdija grabs 2 more boards per game, but Hezonja could actually shoot.

Also, I have not seen anything putting Avdija anywhere close to 2 stls or 2 blks per 36.

They had to take a shot at Lebron, but they should have realized he wan’t going to come to a bad rebuilding team

LeBron was a free agent three times in his career and all three times he went to a bad rebuilding team.

I say Aliens is one of the greatest sci-fi movies ever made

yeah, definitely ditto on aliens over alien…i just love me some private hudson…

Private Hudson : I’m ready, man, check it out. I am the *ultimate* badass! State of the badass art! You do not wanna fuck with me. Check it out! Hey Ripley, don’t worry. Me and my squad of ultimate badasses will protect you! Check it out! Independently targeting particle beam phalanx. Vwap! Fry half a city with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phased plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp sticks…

yeah man, we got sharp sticks…

I will say Expendables 2 is my favorite over 1 and 3….

Godfather 1 and 2 are both epic, 1 beats 2 out by more than a nose but both are top-notch.
Terminator also edges out T2, but both also great.
Aliens is better than Alien

Red Dragon and Hannibal are both decent follow-ups to Silence of the Lambs, hokier but very suspenseful

Also Evil Dead II > Evil Dead

geo: well, that’s three hundred and thirty-two minutes of our life that we’ll never get back…

Anything with Jet Li in it is by definition worthwhile…

…and Gary Sanchez sucks…should have sold high on that guy..

The Glass Half Rebuilt: I meant steals and blocks together. It points to activity on the defensive side of the ball, although it’s obviously not the best way to measure defensive ability. Normally if a guy doesn’t show up on the stat sheet defensively as a prospect, he won’t have a shot at being good in the NBA.

Okay, that makes more sense.

If his shooting is real then I’m wrong. But I don’t think its real

Donnie Walsh: There’s a scene in Silence of the Lambs where an old Austrian man unlocks a “your self storage” unit, letting Clarice into the dark, dirty, disgusting past of Hannibal Lecter. The movie is a psychoanalytical masterpiece. (The follow-ups are not.)

Agreed, but Edward Norton’s portrayal of FBI agent Will Graham in Red Dragon was excellent.

I think my favorite Indiana Jones is The Last Crusade. Is that crazy?

There is something about watching Euro clips that almost never grabs me. Doncic was a definite exception. I have watched a fair amount of Deni clips and I just can’t get that excited about hm.

Owen:
I think my favorite Indiana Jones is The Last Crusade. Is that crazy?

Yes. Raiders of the Lost Ark is the greatest movie of all time with the most iconic opening scene of all time and more iconic scenes than the rest of the series combined.

I figured that would be controversial. I don’t know, after the opening scene I slowly fade watching Raiders.

“She talks in her sleep” was a great line

***Agreed, but Edward Norton’s portrayal of FBI agent Will Graham in Red Dragon was excellent.***

I remember liking Red Dragon, and not liking Hannibal. I forgot Ed Norton was in Red Dragon, but I like him in everything, so that must have been why 🙂

***Raiders of the Lost Ark is the greatest movie of all time with the most iconic opening scene of all time***

The thing that blows me away about the Raiders opening scene is that the wide-eyed Peruvian minstrel that does a short-lived back-stab is one of the best actors of his generation, and when I saw him on broadway in Yasmina Reza’s ART stealing the stage from Alan Alda and Victor Garber, I was like, whoa, that’s the wide-eyed Peruvian minstrel from Raiders??!

Shia LaBeouf was awful as Indy’s son.

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
Hannibal is hot garbage, no offense Z-man

None taken, it doesn’t take much to entertain me…e.g. all things Knicks. The Florence scenes especially resonate.

T2 and Aliens are phenomenal but I prefer the originals by a tad, though Alien and Aliens is really close. Also, apparently, Mamma Mia: Here We Go Again is the best sequel ever.

I see now we’re getting down to the real nitty gritty. Which is better. Terminator of Terminator 2.

I have to agree that T2 is better. But both are masterpieces and its similar to The Godfather argument bc you can’t have the sequel without the original. But I rewatched T2 recently and the effects still hold up 30 years later, which is crazy. The liquid metal would look a bit more realistic if it came out today but there is nothing in that movie that couldn’t be done today and look amazing. And I love the story building on the world created in the first one.

But the first Terminator is really really good. But it is more like a simple horror/monster film whereas T2 is a real sci-fi action masterpiece.

Too bad they had to keep making them after that cause they could have ended it right there and it was the perfect place to do so.

I’m also biased because I was going into 8th grade when T2 came out and it was probably the most excited I ever was to see a summer movie. And my brother took me and my best friend to see T2 at a special midnight screening the night it opened (my parents allowed it since it was the summer and my brother was taking me). But it was a big deal for me to get to see an R rated movie at midnight at age 13. And it did not disappoint. Plus, I was a huge Guns & Roses fan and had been listening to “You Could Be Mine” on the radio for for weeks leading up to that movie.

So are we happy with the signing? Seeing positive feedback. Maybe defense will be back in NY