2020-21 SEASON OPENER Thread: Knicks @ Pacers

I was waiting for the Pacers to announce their starting lineup. Their new coach is even cagier than Thibs.

The Knicks open the season in Indiana, a team that finished with the #4 seed last year, despite playing without possibly their best player in the bubble.

The Knicks’ starting lineup is:

Elfrid Payton
Reggie Bull-LOCK
RJ Barrett
Julius Randle
Mitchell Robinson

Bullock is a weird choice over Burks, and I fear that it was sort of like, “Oh man, that Cleveland game was so good!” hangover, but at least Mitch is starting, thank goodness. He did everything they asked of him in the preseason, so to not start him would have been way uncool.

The Pacers starting lineep is:

Malcolm Brogdon
Victor Oladipo
TJ Warren
Domantas Sabonis
Myles Turner

It’s probably not good when each of the five starters for the other team could make a reasonable case for being better than anyone on the Knicks, but hey, at least their bench is not as good as their starters (although the Holiday brothers sure can shoot it).

The Knicks played the Pacers well last year, with one game being lost on a missed free throw by Randle, so I think that the Knicks can hang with the Pacers in this one. Maybe not win, but I think the Pacers will know that they were in a fight. And hey, maybe the Knicks COULD pull off the upset. Again, they did beat the Pacers once last year. It’s certainly possible that they could do so again.

Hopefully Immanuel Quickley plays well enough tonight to really start pushing the issue as to whether he should start going forward.

Hopefully Mitch and Noel form a dominant interior presence.

Hopefully Barrett has a good game.

Hopefully the Knicks look good, overall.

Welcome to the 2020-21 season, everyone! Let’s go, Knicks!

And as part of our all-poll content…

Who will win tonight?

View Results

Loading ... Loading ...
Liked it? Take a second to support Brian Cronin on Patreon!

666 thoughts to “2020-21 SEASON OPENER Thread: Knicks @ Pacers”

  1. Check it out, I’m the C-A-S-AN, the O-V-A and the rest is F-L-Y
    You see, I go by the code of the doctor of the mix and these reasons I’ll tell you why
    You see I’m six foot one and I’m tons of fun and I dress to a tee
    You see, I got more clothes than Muhammad Ali and I dress so viciously
    I got bodyguards, I got two big cars, that definitely ain’t the wack
    I got a Lincoln continental and a sunroof Cadillac
    So after school, I take a dip in the pool, which is really on the wall
    I got a color TV so I can see the Knicks play basketball

    the new york knickerbocker anthem…

  2. Bullock didn’t play with Payton anywhere close to enough to have earned a start. He did play well with Quickley.

    It’s a strange lineup; all that can be done is that turning the offense over to Payton/Randle is on its last legs even if those legs last until the end of 20-21. Look for Payton/Randle to hog and not look at anyone else and RJ to stand in the corner or at the arc never getting the ball. Maybe a miracle will happen and that will change. Not really sure what exactly it is Thibs and staff are seeing. This lineup was dreadful in the preseason.

  3. The real winners are the time we spent together as fellow Knick fans

    a yeah, insert the mister wolf quote regarding all the premature group congratulatory stuff…

  4. so that means off the bench we are going to see Obi, Noel and Burks. If Rivers was healthy, that would be 9. Meanwhile, we have Frank / Knox and even Smith who need minutes or why bother? Not sure why Bullock sees the floor (unless of course we are trying to win?)

  5. Was going to vote for the Knicks, when i saw the last option… there was no chance i wouldn’t click on that marvelous option (it’s the GOAT of options on our polls)! ;)

    Go NY, go NY, gooooooooo!!!

  6. I’d love to see Quickley go aggressive as soon as he enters. Sort of like a modern day Vinnie Johnson.

  7. The real winners are the time we spent together as fellow Knick fans

    Knickerbloggers tilt heads and stare off into distance.

    Cue flashback to KBers yelling at each other over Frank, politics, & Covid.

    One single flashback about a pleasant time discussing music.

    Back to yelling at each other, this time over Killian Hayes, IQ, and somehow Frank still.

    Return to present, KBers smile and nod their heads knowingly.

  8. Ha- just found out that I can’t access league pass on my cable system and I hate watching games on the computer. I guess I could watch them on NBA.com via the internet on my TV but my TV’s internet interface is almost unusable. I guess I’ll single team league pass the Knicks and try to get used to watching on my iPad. It’s going to be a really long winter and I need some distraction!

  9. Jesus, Wally — Randle did not have a “phenomenal” preseason. Just stop already.

  10. Since it’s the dawn of a new era, figured I’d try something new. Ledaig 10yo, from the Isle of Hull.

  11. Jesus, Wally — Randle did not have a “phenomenal” preseason. Just stop already.

    I mean, if we get 18-7-7 per-36 with a .581 TS% from Randle I certainly won’t complain.

  12. cybersoze:
    Was going to vote for the Knicks, when i saw the last option… there was no chance i wouldn’t click on that marvelous option (it’s the GOAT of options on our polls)! ;)

    Go NY, go NY, gooooooooo!!!

    I had to +1 that …. for obvious reasons!

  13. What should be noted is that everyone in the lineup played on the team last year. They’re familiar with each other.

  14. Since it’s the dawn of a new era, figured I’d try something new. Ledaig 10yo, from the Isle of Hull.

    Never had Ledaig but heard solid things. Just poured a dram of Ardbeg Corryvreckan. Figured I’d drink my nicest stuff on the best night of the season (before all the losing starts). Cheers everyone!

  15. Ugh, I’m staying at relative’s house for a few days and only just now realized that my access to MSG via Comcast is in-home only. So even though I’ve got the Xfinity app on the TV here, plus my laptop, I appear to be out of luck for the game, unless anyone has a quick suggestion.

    UPDATE: Nevermind. I thought MSG Go wasn’t going to work for me here, either, but I finally got it to work by switching browsers.

  16. GoNYGoNYGo – Tanking forever:
    What should be noted is that everyone in the lineup played on the team last year. They’re familiar with each other.

    Yeah I was thinking thar re: Bollock, more of a tiebreaker seniority thing. I think Bullock is a better 3pt shooter and defender, while Burks is a better at shot creation. Bullock might be the better fit with RJ

  17. By the way, Joinone was right, I can’t watch the game on Ten EBr sports. Instead I was given a link for a free stream. Amazingly, it’s in English, but, on the other hand it’s the Pacers broadcast. I’ll be able to watch the first quarter or so on the bus going to work

  18. Watching in real time for a minute actually amazingly.

    Z-Man beat me to Quick/Quick…
    Nothing new

  19. Haiku for a new season…

    Youth be served today
    Basketball is back in play
    This marks a New Year

  20. Has anyone ever seen Zach Randolph and Julius Randle at the same time?

    It just sort of hit me they are very similar players.

  21. Great move by Sabonis. Can’t even knock Mitch there, that move was that good (and yes, technically an offensive foul).

  22. Coverage is very spotty, but I did catch one of the Pacers announcers saying he watched some of the Knicks preseason games and Barrett looked. I mean who watches Knicks preseason games except Knicks fans?

  23. Personally, I don’t care if Mitch starts or not. I want to maximize his minutes on the court because he’s the better player. If he gets in foul trouble quickly against good big men like Turner or the craftier Sabonis, what good is starting if he plays less minutes than he would coming off the bench dominating scrubs and playing less minutes against players that will know to and try to get him in foul trouble. We want him at the end too. Good test for him tonight.

    And just like that, here we are already.

  24. Why in the world did Milwaukee let Brogdon go, only to then trade twenty-five picks to pay Jrue Holiday more money than Brogdon?

  25. Since it’s the dawn of a new era, figured I’d try something new. Ledaig 10yo, from the Isle of Hull.

    i don’t even really drink, but, i wanna drink with you…seems like you always got the good stuff, even when i have no idea what it actually is that you’re drinking…it just sounds like good stuff…

    hmmmmm, maybe when i’m enjoying that lukewarm “i don’t know exactly how old it is” bud-light i got stuffed away somewhere in the back of the pantry – i’ll be able to think of a way to word it so it sounds a little more enticing…

  26. I am listening to the game on SiriusXM and there is about a 2/3 second delay from the board. I feel like everyone here is psychic when you call made shots.

    To be fair, you may be psychic for all I know.

  27. This looks like the 2020 Knicks.
    Mitch should have no fouls on him. Sabonis clearly initiated contact on the first and the second was a clear block.
    Payton is overmatched.

  28. And just like that, here we are already.

    It wasn’t a foul, though. Hard to knock a guy for fouling when the refs call a fake foul on him.

  29. Mitch should have no fouls on him. Sabonis clearly initiated contact on the first and the second was a clear block.

    The Sabonis move at least doesn’t get called often. The other foul was just a total botched call.

  30. I am listening to the game on SiriusXM and there is about a 2/3 second delay from the board. I feel like everyone here is psychic when you call made shots.

    To be fair, you may be psychic for all I know.

    oh my goodness perverse osmosis – i totally knew you were about to write that…

  31. Mitch did a good job on Sabonis, and he’s more likely to be near the basket than Turner which is where you want Mitch.

    Knicks are losing but haven’t looked terrible, imo

  32. Despite being a very alert and heady player so far, RJ has this heavy-lidded expression on his face that reminds me so much of an actor that I can’t quite place, like an itch I can’t scratch. It’ll come to me…

  33. Mitch did a good job on Sabonis, and he’s more likely to be near the basket than Turner which is where you want Mitch.

    I want Mitch near the basket, but on man-to-move coverage, I’d like Randle on Sabonis.

  34. The flaw in replacing foul happy Mitch with Nerlens is that Noel is at least as foul happy as Mitch is

  35. Brian Cronin: It wasn’t a foul, though. Hard to knock a guy for fouling when the refs call a fake foul on him.

    I understand what you are saying, but Sabonis is very crafty and knows how to create contact and draw fouls and fake them. This kind of stuff won’t happen against scrubs (like on the Cavs). When Drummond was matched against Mitch he also made some moves on him. So yes, he’s the better player with way more upside than Nerlens, but against some players he may get fewer minutes or be less effective if he starts instead just dominating off the bench. He’s got to get past this eventually. It’s part of the learning process.

  36. OK. They didn’t let the game get away from them. Time to put some points up.

  37. I understand what you are saying, but Sabonis is very crafty and knows how to create contact and draw fouls. This kind of stuff won’t happen against scrubs (like on the Cavs). When Drummond was matched against Mitch he also made some moves on him. So yes, he’s the better player with way more upside than Nerlens, but against some players he may get fewer minutes or be less effective if he starts instead just dominating off the bench. He’s got to get past this eventually. It’s part of the learning process.

    But his backup is Noel, who has two quick fouls, as well. There is no logical reason to not start Mitch.

  38. We have our first instance of the season of Clyde saying the other team is in disarray!

    We’ve been pretty sloppy, too, but RJ and Randle are both playing like the best versions of themselves so far. And now Quickley’s in. (Meanwhile, who would have thought that in the season opener, Obi would at best be the fourth guy off the bench? I thought for sure when Noel picked up his second foul, Thibs would go to the Obi/Randle frontcourt.)

  39. Mitch has to learn how to defend guys like Sabonis, might as well do it now.

  40. Maybe, Pepper? Here’s Duke as a young man. Not quite RJ, but the eyes are in the area. It’s a cliche for me, but I feel like it’s someone from The Wire, maybe? Or Aldis Hodge? It’ll come to me…

  41. Breen thought Mitch’s 2nd foul was a clean block, fwiw. He doesn’t disagree with the refs without reason.

  42. Macri posted the shot chart for the Knicks so far and it’s a beauty. 3s and restricted area, basically. Just one long two.

  43. What a great play by Quickley to draw the terribly called foul. Tricking the refs is a skill and it is one Quickley seems to have.

  44. God, I love that Quickley is already making defenders nuts with how he draws fouls on shots that have no hope of going in.

  45. Wait, if the Pacers are challenging it early, then why didn’t Thibs do the same with Mitch’s BS foul?

  46. Mike seems to think that pass was real sweet but it was telegraphed from the other side of the damn country, which is why Randle got stuffed.

  47. Dumb challenge, then, if it was that close, then you shouldn’t bother. The Mitch blown call was more obvious.

  48. Mike seems to think that pass was real sweet but it was telegraphed from the other side of the damn country, which is why Randle got stuffed.

    Yeah, it looked nice, but I agree that it really didn’t set Randle up to succeed there.

  49. That second foul on Mitch. Heartbreaking. But this Quickley foul is a karmic makeover.

    They look good so far. So do the Pacers. Myles Turner is one of the few guys in the NBA who can legit matchup with Mitch. I also really wish we had signed Brogdon, though that wasn’t ever happening. I really like him,

    Also, watched a little bit with my 6 year old son for the first time which is a story for tmw.

  50. IQ took a step forward before he jumped up which probably helped seal it

  51. My street is being resurfaced so I’ve got a lot of volatile hydrocarbons floating around in the air. Doesn’t smell as bad as these refs.

  52. Clyde and Mike kept talking about how McConnell moved towards Quickley, but conveniently ignored that Randle more or less forced him into doing it. He and IQ made a McConnell sandwich.

  53. Sadly, I don’t think the Knicks will continue to shoot 63% from three.
    :-)
    I see Randle leads the Knicks in assists and turnovers.

  54. Watching Payton play makes me puke every single time.
    Randle is a rollercoaster ride that I’d rather avoid.
    Barrett’s playing really well.
    Quickley alone has more BBIQ than Payton and Randle combined.
    The referees are baaaaad.

  55. Also, watched a little bit with my 6 year old son for the first time which is a story for tmw.

    I’m so sorry that your kid is now a Pacers fan. But good for him!

  56. TheClashFan: Clyde and Mike kept talking about how McConnell moved towards Quickley, but conveniently ignored that Randle more or less forced him into doing it. He and IQ made a McConnell sandwich.

    Looked at the play-by-play, one was traveling for moving his feet, another the post move shoulder into chest, and the last was the ill-advised cross court pass.

    I thought the Refs whistle was questionable on the offensive and travel, and I’ll take Randle over passing any day of hte week

  57. I’m so sorry that your kid is now a Pacers fan. But good for him!

    Jesus, you are a savant! That is exactly what happened.

  58. Humor me and pay attention to Julius Randle’s body language. The guy has been sulking all night.

  59. TheClashFan: Huh? That quote 3 posts above wasn’t by me.

    I was trying to quote the Randle AST & TO comment, idk what happened

  60. First Cronin of the year!

    Toppin’s jumper looks extremely dehydrated

    I can’t believe Burks has been in the year for 10 years

  61. I’m honestly a little surprised Burks was available at 1/$6M. Feels like a pick waiting to happen if we don’t insist on chasing the 10th seed.

  62. Toppin rushing his shot, needs to settle down and take his time. It’s coming off his hands before proper follow through

  63. I’m honestly a little surprised Burks was available at 1/$6M. Feels like a pick waiting to happen if we don’t insist on chasing the 10th seed.

    It didn’t make any sense.

  64. The Pacers have been bricking so many threes that they look legitimately scared about shooting the three.

  65. I like Knox’s defense today. Randle is playing well too. The game is going very fast for Toppin.

  66. So far, Immanuel Quickly has shown he’s the team’s best point guard. He’d been setting up that step back 3 out of the P&R for like 4 possessions. Even if it didn’t fall you can see some strategy from him.

  67. The Knicks are making every three and the Pacers are missing all of their threes and it’s a close game. Probably not a good sign for the second.

  68. Toppin’s passing and willingness to do so is a nice development so far in his young career.

  69. Anybody else feel like they’ve mixed the on-court audio kind of low relative to the fake crowd sounds? I can hardly hear some of these whistles.

  70. IQ is playing just fine. He’s a keeper.

    Yeah, he looks like he belongs out there. Nothing amazing, but not out of place, either. That’s big.

  71. Yeah, you don’t want to see that. And right when I was about to note how conspicuous Payton’s absence had been.

  72. Biggest thing from IQ is he’s a threat to shoot (and make it) and teams can’t play 5 on 4. Hope his hip is alright

  73. Here I am already wishing we’d signed Burks to a 3 year deal instead.

    Oh, I wanted that right away. I imagine he specifically wanted the one year deal to build his value, though.

  74. IQ doens’t look like a PG, but neither do any of our other PGs. At least he can shoot and hustle on defense. Point Randle it is!

  75. lol..just turned the game on..

    All offseason long Thibs’ looked more spry…younger..like the time off has done him some good.

    As soon as he starts coaching- he looks older and stressed lol

  76. Great finish from Barrett there. He’s a wow so far. Unreal game. Feeling like I might be wrong about this one. And I like it.

  77. Barrett reads KB and wants me to eat crow, which I will if he plays like this for even a full month of the season

  78. RJ looking like he learned how to shoot around the rim and I’m beaming

  79. Not quite ready to accept we got us one of those young players who actually gets better, but man RJ looks good

  80. Everyone of you who doubted RJ Barrett owe the #BarrettBros a 1,000 word essay on why you were wrong. And we need 2,000 words from those of you who think Brandon Clarke is a better basketball player.

  81. Obi doesn’t look like the player everyone thought we were getting, but I do think there’s a pretty good NBA player in there. Just more passing and shooting than dunking.

    We need Nerlens or Mitch back in there.

  82. Everyone of you who doubted RJ Barrett owe the #BarrettBros a 1,000 word essay on why you were wrong. And we need 2,000 words from those of you who think Brandon Clarke is a better basketball player.

    Taking victory laps in the first half of the first game of the season is a big part of what we do around here. We’re not going to kick it to the curb.

    And I’ve always been pro-Barrett, but, well, come on now.

  83. I am prepared to eat a lot of crow if RJ never misses a shot again.

    Seriously though, holy fucking shit. That was the best half of basketball I can remember a Knick playing.

  84. 66 points?
    RJ 8 for 8 with 20? Do we have a star?
    Toppin waking up.
    I’ve been laid up for a week with a bad back. I hope IQ doesn’t have what I have.
    Randle is playing unselfishly? 8 assists?

  85. What’s RJ Barrett’s TS% so far this season?

    he’s missed as many shots as you have good opinions

  86. that was an unbelievably ridiculous half from rj….

    mind you… last year he had a really good debut against the spurs and a pretty decent first 5 games so don’t get carried away but if his shooting at the line is real then it’s going to carry over in other ways and we might be seeing the fruits of that….

  87. Brian Cronin: Taking victory laps in the first half of the first game of the season is a big part of what we do around here. We’re not going to kick it to the curb.

    And I’ve always been pro-Barrett, but, well, come on now.

    Let me have my moment, Cronin. It may not last very long.

  88. YOUNG PLAYERS NEVER GET BETTER except with hard work and a good development staff!

    #ImLovingMeSomeRJBarrett

  89. Let me have my moment, Cronin. It may not last very long.

    Yeah, fair enough. Go for it! :)

  90. Other than Elfrid Payton, this is one of the most unexpected halves of basketball i think I’ve ever seen.

    Hope Quickley’s hip thing is not a thing.

  91. Barrett reads KB and wants me to eat crow, which I will if he plays like this for even a full month of the season

    I have rarely wanted to witness someone eating crow as badly as I want here, Jowles. He’s not gonna go 8-for-8 in many halves, but my gosh, he looks great.

  92. I got to tip my hat to Thibs because they played some good basketball. The ball moved.

    Wally going with that hair gel looks a little strange. My wife was like “why is his head so narrow?”

  93. I found myself smiling during long portions of this half. I can’t remember the last time that happened. Damn! Three couch pounds already!

    What a huge difference not signing 4 power forwards to play for a clueless coach. Just wow.

  94. Owen: Wally going with that hair gel looks a little strange. My wife was like “why is his head so narrow?”

      

    How about them socks!

  95. It may be that I’m out of town for the night and thus don’t have to worry about disturbing kids at bedtime, but I’m not sure when the last time was that I screamed so loudly and so often when the Knicks did good things on offense.

  96. The way Randle is playing so far this year he may have a few triple doubles this season. Unfortunately, the way he turns the ball over he may have a couple of quadruple doubles too. :-)

  97. randle has created a lot of shots for this offense… he’s basically playing pg..

    He’s played really well overall tonight, even with some shooting woes.

  98. Except for Mitch’s fouls and Quickley’s hip, loved this 1st half. Now off to bed, as here it’s 1AM. Enjoy the 2nd half, folks. ;)

  99. This version of Randle is fine. That pass from Obi was sweet. The rotations on defense have been (mostly) good. And RJ…I didn’t think it would happen for him until next year, but I would love to be wrong.

    If it weren’t for Sabonis and the refs, we’d be blowing them out.

  100. Still, 8 for 15 vs. 4 for 19. That’s clearly the story of the game right there.

    Even more so that the outstanding gams by Burks and RJ.

    And the Pacers missing five out 16 free throws is an issue, too.

  101. Yeah, Burks was incredible too. But RJ is the story because he was so godawful last year.

    I mean, we did got 8-15 from 3 and 10-11 from the line and we are only up 5. But that was a great half. And Sabonis clearly pays the refs.

  102. Looks like we had a team.
    Maybe not a good one but a team.
    15 AST on 24 made FGs, I like the way the ball is moving, a LOT less ISO than last year.
    With Quickley the offense if way more fluid, he and Burks added a needed outside threat.
    Barrett’s been great and when Randle control himself he could be a useful player (right now is doing stupid things just one every three plays :-) ).

  103. I adore the disclaimer in the FanDuel-sponsored Knick segments. “Gambling problem? Call this number.” Yes, I’m sure you’re verrrrry concerned about gambling problems.

  104. Offence may be unsustainable but the d looks mostly good and maybe a sign of things to come. Really really fun half. RJ’s demeanor is so good, when he plays great like this, it seems like he was born to lead.

  105. I expect he Pacers to foul RJ hard in the second half if he gets good looks.

    They’re going to want him to prove it on the FT line.

  106. If we stopped turning the ball over for transition dunks, that would also be nice.

  107. Man, I just looked at Jared Harper’s portrait on NBA.com

    He looks just like Marlo from The Wire!

  108. Deeefense:
    The way Randle is playing so far this year he may have a few triple doubles this season. Unfortunately, the way he turns the ball over he may have a couple of quadruple doubles too.:-)

    “Cripple-doubles”

  109. Payton has not been good. Nice to see a 3, but we’re going to miss Quick.

  110. Credit where it’s due: Randle has been a pretty damn good version of himself tonight

  111. is it legal for Sabonis to shoulder the Knicks defender in the chest every time he gets the ball?

    I think so, actually.

  112. This is the most invisible Mitch has ever looked in a game. Good defense there on Sabonis though they could have called a foul.

  113. This is the most invisible Mitch has ever looked in a game. Good defense there on Sabonis though they could have called a foul.

    Part of it is no pick and roll and a lot of it is smart Pacers offense to mostly stay away from him.

  114. this version of obi shooting 3s and throwing floaters up isn’t gonna last too long in the nba…

  115. It’s really hard to play point guard if you can’t shoot and you can’t consistently get to the hole…

  116. this version of obi shooting 3s and throwing floaters up isn’t gonna last too long in the nba…

    Right? He’s like an end of the bench player right now. It’s not encouraging.

  117. So who’s third on the PG list for Thibs?

    I adore the disclaimer in the FanDuel-sponsored Knick segments. “Gambling problem? Call this number.” Yes, I’m sure you’re verrrrry concerned about gambling problems.

    Cadillac commercials got that Shadow x RTJ track stuck in my head and it’s getting old.

  118. If this is the version of Toppin they’re coaching/getting we should’ve gone with the Israeli kid.

  119. I’d rather have Ntilikina in the game than to watch Payton take another shot

  120. It’s early etc. but I was totally wrong about Toppin’s role. I figured he’d be something of a go to guy. Instead he’s playing like Novak with a mediocre 3PT shot. Not ideal.

  121. djphan:
    this version of obi shooting 3s and throwing floaters up isn’t gonna last too long in the nba…

    He’s not going to overpower NBA players like he did 19 years olds (at least not right away) and NBA defenses are going to take away most of the leak outs. He has to add to his game or he’s kind of a waste of a pick without a 3 pointer.

    I’ve been saying this kind of stuff all along.

  122. In case of emergency, break glass. But who’s in the case: Frank or DSJ?

    My guess is both, plus some Harper. Doubt any of them will be able to stay on the floor for long.

  123. So much for perfect RJ… Oh well.

    Meanwhile, it speaks really poorly of Thibs’ feelings about Frank and Smith that he basically brought Burks in as the point guard (or perhaps returned to Fizdale’s Point RJ experiment) when Elf came out.

  124. Payton destroys every semblance of a decent offense.
    Watch his defender sagging 8 feet from him and playing safety on the passing lanes,
    with him on the floor we’re always attacking 4 vs 5…

  125. He has to add to his game or he’s kind of a waste of a pick without a 3 pointer.

    you cant expand your game when you haven’t established you can score inside… and he’s basically afraid to go into the paint right now…

    no bueno…. super concerning….

  126. RJ’s been great, but that was a really bad sequence by him. Running out the clock to setup a PnR that just turned to him launching an offbalance 3. Then he doens’t get back on D

  127. Great pass by Obi, but he was also being easily guarded by Justin Holiday. The Pacers can’t buy a three.

  128. Obi’s passing is kind of nuts. Now if only he could do all the other stuff well

  129. Obi looks intimidated, but not hopeless. He’s played some good D, has had a nose for the ball, made a few good passes – he just isn’t ready for the level of competition. But I don’t think it’s beyond his ability.

  130. what were they trying to trade turner for… but didn’t work out?

    they shouldn’t trade turner….

  131. As much as I can’t stand him, the Knicks are really missing Julius Randle.

    They miss Quickley too, but not having Julius Randle to brute force his way through a defender is really hurting right now.

  132. what were they trying to trade turner for… but didn’t work out?

    They offered McDermott and Turner for Hayward, but Ainge wanted either Warren or Oladipo instead of McDermott, like a dick.

  133. It’s amazing how different the team looks when Quickley is in the game. Turner is having a monster defensive game. This Pacer team is a good defensive team.

  134. Nobody will say it, but the Pacers are the perfect landing spot for James Harden. Nobody would be able to beat a package of Oladipo and Sabonis, and then you’re left with Turner, Warren, McDermott, Harden, and Brogdon going forward.

  135. he just isn’t ready for the level of competition

    The problem with this is he’s almost 23

  136. Brian Cronin: They offered McDermott and Turner for Hayward, but Ainge wanted either Warren or Oladipo instead of McDermott, like a dick.

    What a moron. I think Stevens has made him look better than he really is as GM.

  137. Turner is a shot blocker extraordinaire. And Ainge didn’t think he was enough compensation for Hayward.

  138. Thibs needs to roll the dice and get DSJ in there at PG. And I’m not a DSJ fan.

    Edit…looks like Frank gets the call.

  139. Z-man:
    What were the Celts thinking by not taking Miles Turner to facilitate the Hayward trade?

    Almost making the trade is a big part of what they do in Boston. Tatum, Brown, and Turner would have been impossible to deal with for the next five years, so I’m glad it didn’t happen. Walker, Nesmith, Tatum, Brown, and Turner? No thank you.

  140. Frank still playing the same way he did as a rookie … giving up his dribble, passing and running to the corner, no attempt to even intiate a threat of any kind

  141. That was some Indiana Hoosier shit from McDermott there.

    Good finish from Knox. Doesn’t normally convert those.

  142. djphan:
    they need to do the thing they did to tony parker to obi… 5k penalty for every 3 he shoots…

    He’s shooting 42% from 3 tonight. It’s everything else that’s bad right now

  143. The way the foul shots and 3s have gone reminds me of the days teams would tighten up the rim on one side.

  144. This looks like the Knicks of old.

    Less ball movement, mediocre D, bad shot selection, Randle getting double teamed, Frank standing in the corner doing nothing…. smh

    They give it a good effort, but they are gassed.

  145. It’s amazing how shitty this offense looks without Quickley there.

    Is it only me who sees it? The offense goes to absolute shit without him to organize things.

    He was finding Knox in the preseason…and now no one wants to get him the ball behind the 3 point line.

  146. I will probably be accused of Not Being Able to See the Greatness but not loving the year 4 Frank Ntilikina experience so far

  147. Not a horrible performance, some things to build on. I wish IQ was available.

    It really highlights how terrible the PG play is.

  148. This half is much less fun so far. I just wanna see some more from RJ before the end, even if we lose as predicted.

  149. The games rotated on himself with the Quickley injury.
    Knicks’ offense is so different with him playing,
    with Payton (horrible), Frank (bad, but it’s not his fault if Noel miss a bunny from 2 feet) and Burks (poor guy) everything reversed to last year…

  150. The defense has been pretty terrible tonight considering the Pacers missed approximately 87 uncontested trees.

  151. Thank you for fact checking me Z-Man. i just mean it’s a good go to for him.

    Some interesting scores around the NBA.

  152. Let’s be honest, though, Who wasn’t expecting something like this in the 2nd half? Whatever the case, the positive takeaway tonight is RJB.

  153. I wasn’t a huge Nate McMillan fan, but I thought he was okay, but holy shit, this Pacers team is 180 degrees different on offense than McMillan’s team (in a very good way).

  154. Everything I’ve seen this season so far tells me the team leader is a rookie PG who the head coach won’t even start.

  155. I can’t believe Thom Thibodeaux isn’t starting a guy who didn’t play point guard in college on the basis of two preseason games against maybe the worst defense in the NBA

  156. DRed:
    I can’t believe Thom Thibodeaux isn’t starting a guy who didn’t play point guard in college on the basis of two preseason games against maybe the worst defense in the NBA

    The great Elfrid Payton has to get his minutes in despite being a horrendous fit for the of type of offense he runs.

  157. Randle in there at 34 minutes with the Knicks down 15. Is there any way he doesn’t lead the league in minutes played this year?

  158. Mitch in concussion protocol? I haven’t heard any injury updates from the broadcast.

    That makes some sense, actually. He did take a big smack.

  159. DRed:
    I can’t believe Thom Thibodeaux isn’t starting a guy who didn’t play point guard in college on the basis of two preseason games against maybe the worst defense in the NBA

    I sense irony here…
    :-)

  160. It’s the first fucking game of the season. If IQ is good it’ll show and then they’ll play him more.

  161. DRed:
    It’s the first fucking game of the season.If IQ is goodit’ll show and then they’ll play him more.

    it already does. There are only two players who were in plus +/- for the game. One was Burks, who had a monster efficient game. Guess who was the other one.

  162. It’s the first fucking game of the season. If IQ is good it’ll show and then they’ll play him more.

    One assist in 12 minutes! He’s clearly the future.

  163. I truly can’t think of a more Harden-friendly starting four than Brogdon, McDermott, Warren, and Turner..

  164. The team needs 1 more real point guard and 1 more center.
    It was fun until Quickly pulled up lame.

  165. I mean, there’s nothing in this game that we didn’t expect. If RJ is good, nothing else matters.

  166. All in all a pretty good game against a solid Pacers squad. Knicks clearly are not up to game conditioning yet, they’ll get more consistent as they go. Hopefully.

  167. I still think we have a team but now I’m sure is a bad one :-)

    Bad habits looms just under the surface, Thibs and the staff need time to work.
    The first half was too good and the second looks like shit.
    A competent PG makes all the difference, but I think there are some positive signs to take home from this game (first half ball movement and defensive effort).
    Payton is borderline unplayable, hope IQ’s injury is not serious.

    P.S. Dear Clyde, this is not “down the stretch”, this is straight garbage time.

  168. I’ve been a Frank guy for a long time. But if anyone was going to get something out of him it would be Thibs. Frank, DSJ, Knox are not really NBA players. I’d give it a couple months and move on and try new blood off the scrap heap.

    Btw Thibs did not overplay the vets. Especially starting Mitch.

    RJ was a huge positive. Randall, Burks play like this they are great trade bait.

  169. No smiles in the second half, but I think there’s plenty of reason for hope here. I compared IQ to Andre Miller and I still think that fits – in a low-key way he just seems to make the team play better. He’s really canny for a rook. And RJ has taken a step forward. And you have to be happy with this version of Randle. He is not the problem.

  170. I don’t think there was too much to be learned by this game other than RJ further demonstrating that he has taken a solid step forward. He’ll be even better of we ever get consistent space and PG play.

    We already we knew we had a problem at PG unless Quickley becomes the guy, but he got hurt. So be it. He’ll be back.

    Randle has added a new dimension to his game as a better passer, but because we suck he’s still being asked to do too much on offense and that results in some bad shots and TOs. His decision making is still a problem when asked to do too much.

    Robinson is Robinson. He can dunk and block shots, but he can’t do much else and on some nights good teams will get him in foul trouble early and/or pretty much neutralize him and take advantage of him.

    Toppin has some limitations at the NBA level at his point. His shot arc is crazy. I’m not particularly happy with what I’ve seen so far.

    Knox looks a little better, but starting from such a low level he’s not a player yet.

    It’s pointless to have Frank bring up the ball, run to the corner, and stand there. That’s not going to work with the players we have. Just trade the poor guy already. He belongs in Dallas where there’s already plenty of scoring and space and they need help on defense at the guard position because Doncic can’t guard anyone, especially not fast PGs. They must have a 2nd rounder they can send to us. Maybe he can have a role off the bench there.

  171. There are only two players who were in plus /- for the game. One was Burks, who had a monster efficient game. Guess who was the other one.

    The guy who didn’t play the half where the team got outscored by 20? We’re really doing single game plus minus for a guy who played 12 minutes?

  172. I mean, Sabonis and Turner is about the worst matchup Mitch will have this year. And if he gets a block rather than a foul against Sabonis in the first quarter his whole line would look a lot different. He got into the game in the second half and looked himself. But whatever. It’s one game.

    Giannis can really do some shit out there. That handle on a 7 footer is something.

  173. One assist in 12 minutes! He’s clearly the future.

    It’s not that IQ is so great, even though he’s very promising.

    It’s that the options behind him are so trash. Elfrid Payton? That’s the guy Thibs thought gives the team a better chance to win? Elfrid Payton?

    GTFOH.

  174. RJ looked great, Randle was basically the platonic ideal of himself, Obi looked like trash, Knox went back to being Kevin Knox, Payton is still Elfrid Payton, and IQ got hurt right when we were really rolling. Such is life. The tank rolls on…

  175. Hey, remember when I said comparing Obi to Amare Stoudemire was stupid? Yeah. 3 rebs in 24 minutes is the real warning sign that should be blasting in everyone’s ear.

    I get the love for Quickley, but he didn’t exactly light the world on fire in his minutes.

    Payton played like crap. He’s shown the level of play he’s capable last year and for multiple years in the NBA. People are overreacting to 1 game. If he keeps playing like this, then he’ll get benched.

  176. DRed: The guy who didn’t play the half where the team got outscored by 20?We’re really doing single game plus minus for a guy who played 12 minutes?

    He was also in the positive for the first half with the rest of the backups he played with. I checked halftime. The starters were in the negative. Just keep adding it to the tally of how much better the team performs with him in the lineup vs. with him out of it.

  177. I agree with the more general point, though, that the PG play is so bad that Quickley’s presence is big just by not being terrible and being able to hit from outside. Really basic stuff, but basic stuff the Knicks don’t have.

  178. LOL @ half the Rockets team violating COVID protocols or waiting for test results causing a delayed game.

  179. LOL I feel like I am taking crazy pills here with people bring up individual volume stats to quantify game impact.

    Does no one see the superior spacing and ball movement when one PG is in the lineup vs. everyone else?

    The ball stagnated the entire second half.

  180. Brian Cronin:
    I agree with the more general point, though, that the PG play is so bad that Quickley’s presence is big just by not being terrible and being able to hit from outside. Really basic stuff, but basic stuff the Knicks don’t have.

    Absolutely. Basic competence at the position has been missing for years. Competence.

  181. Ntilakilla:
    LOL I feel like I am taking crazy pills here with people bring up individual volume stats to quantify game impact.

    Does no one see the superior spacing and ball movement when one PG is in the lineup vs. everyone else?

    The ball stagnated the entire second half.

    If you’re going to quote 12 minutes of +/- on this website, then you’re going to get ignored.

  182. Owen:
    I mean, Sabonis and Turner is about the worst matchup Mitch will have this year. And if he gets a block rather than a foul against Sabonis in the first quarter his whole line would look a lot different. He got into the game in the second half and looked himself. But whatever. It’s one game.

    I understand and agree, but when you get to the playoffs, you get those tougher matchups more often. You have to be able to do more than dunk and block shots. If you have limitations on offense, that’s OK as long as you are a Tyson Chandler or Rudy Gobert caliber defender in every other way. I think you can argue other than blocking shots his defense is average or maybe even subpar. I’m not down on him at all, but he’s still very green for 3d year player. I was hoping for more. He will give us some huge impact games on some nights though. We already know that.

  183. Brian Cronin:
    I agree with the more general point, though, that the PG play is so bad that Quickley’s presence is big just by not being terrible and being able to hit from outside. Really basic stuff, but basic stuff the Knicks don’t have.

    +1

  184. I agree with the more general point, though, that the PG play is so bad that Quickley’s presence is big just by not being terrible and being able to hit from outside. Really basic stuff, but basic stuff the Knicks don’t have.

    This is it. It’s not that Quickley is a world-beater so far. It’s just that the other options at the position (at least until Rivers is healthy, and probably even then) are so terrible that IQ’s adequasity (RIP Phil Hartman) makes a huge difference in our offense.

    About the only part of Obi’s game so far that looks like it belongs on an NBA basketball court is his passing, and RJ’s a decent secondary playmaker, though neither he nor Burks should be playing PG. And as we saw tonight, Randle can really fling some dimes when he puts his mind to it. If we had just a slightly below-average starter at the 1, we might really have something. So we need immanuel to heal up… quickley.

    Good night, everybody! You’ve been great!

  185. you can’t really judge competence when randle was mostly the pg on the floor with IQ… there’s going to be games where that’s a terrible idea and you need your pg to do more…

    elf usually provides nba minutes when that’s needed but that obviously wasn’t the case today…

  186. I had the same thought re Devincenzo but Teague pulled off some crazy shit with that strip.

    Holy shit Tatum. Goddammit

  187. rj was a revelation today… he had some strong takes to the hoop and the 3s were finally falling…. he struggled some against indiana last year vs turner in particular and he did challenge him better and also just avoiding him most of the time… really promising stuff…. important to be mindful that he started off hot the first 5 games last year as his 2p% was over 50% and it looked like it would stay that way… then he fell into some bad habits…. so just having this consistent approach is going to be the biggest key for him….

    obi is concerning…. the reason taking too many 3s is worrisome is because the bulk of a frontcourt player’s offense should be coming from inside…. he’s supposed to be athletic. and dominant inside…. that’s why he was a lotto pick…. not because he’s shooting half of his shots from 3… that’s kelly olynk or bobby portis and while they have their uses… we didn’t draft obi #8 with those kinds of players in mind…

  188. Yeah, Chris Webber sucks.

    That was a tough call by the refs against the Celts but sadly ball don’t lie

  189. How is there no late national game? it’s the first real night of the season

    Mavs/Suns at 10:30 on ESPN

  190. Pop is such a brilliant coach. Even when you might want to tank, he comes up with a lineup with DeMar DeRozan starting at power forward and Lonnie Walker at small forward against a playoff team and wins. Wow, he’s so good.

  191. Obi today was Jekill and Hyde.
    First he was shy to a fault and then he started launching threes as a mad bomber.
    I’m surprised by his passing and expected more from his inside-to-midrange game but all rookies are dealt a bad hand this year (no Summer league, no real training camp, shortened preseason, less time to work with the staff) so despite some worrisome signals I’ll wait at least half a season to make a firm statement on him.

  192. obi is concerning…. the reason taking too many 3s is worrisome is because the bulk of a frontcourt player’s offense should be coming from inside…. he’s supposed to be athletic. and dominant inside…. that’s why he was a lotto pick…. not because he’s shooting half of his shots from 3… that’s kelly olynk or bobby portis and while they have their uses… we didn’t draft obi #8 with those kinds of players in mind…

    Yeah, instead, he had trouble posting up Justin freakin’ Holiday. There was an earlier post up where he was dribbling for, like, 14 seconds where it was just blatant that he had no chance in the world of scoring (and he didn’t).

  193. that’s kelly olynk or bobby portis

    Bobby Portis actually seems like the best Obi comp I’ve heard so far.

  194. If R.J Barrett develops into a star I couldn’t care less about anything else as most of the players on the court tonight, barring Mitch and Toppin hopefully, won’t be a part of the next good Knicks team anyway. That’s my philosophy for watching this entire season, so this was a positive game overall. I won’t get into the endless PG discussion because it is what it is, Quickley has shown basic competence which should earn him minutes, which he got until the injury, Payton has a history of basic competence so he gets minutes too, everyone else is irrelevant. Burks might be the Marcus Morris of this season, Randle looked better than usual and everything else was pretty much expected.

  195. Brian Cronin:
    Giannis has to become a better free throw shooter.

    His FT adversity already cost him in previous playoffs, knowing his work ethic is shocking that he’s still struggling so much at the line.

  196. Brian Cronin:
    Pop is such a brilliant coach. Even when you might want to tank, he comes up with a lineup with DeMar DeRozan starting at power forward and Lonnie Walker at small forward against a playoff team and wins. Wow, he’s so good.

    He’s a legend. Every year I fear it could be his last and try to watch the Spurs as much as I can just for him.

  197. Max: His FT adversity already cost him in previous playoffs, knowing his work ethic is shocking that he’s still struggling so much at the line.

    He is literally Wilt 2.0 (just smaller, slower, weaker, less athletic and less smart)

  198. Rozier and Hayward combined for 70 and the Hornets still lose to Cleveland as Lamelo went 0-fer (but his passes are oh so beautiful).
    We’re in good company in the Tank Run.

  199. Recap (abridged):
    RJ: A-
    Randle: B
    Mitch: D
    Payton: D
    Bullock: C
    Burks: A
    Knox: C-
    IQ: Inc
    Noel: D
    Obi: C-
    Frank: F
    Thibs: B-

  200. uhhh what did brandon clarke do to his jumper?

    If Clarke and RJ have Freaky Friday’ed, that’s really going to complicate the Knickerblogger discourse.

  201. There are guys who’ve done 5 to 10 for throwing games who played better than Elfrid Payton did tonight. He should be shot to the sun tomorrow.

  202. Anybody see how the Timberwolves are bringing D’Angelo Russell off of the bench?

    i think that was related to a late covid test and not the long term plan

  203. Z-man:
    Recap (abridged):
    RJ: A-
    Randle: B
    Mitch: D
    Payton: D
    Bullock: C
    Burks: A
    Knox: C-
    IQ: Inc
    Noel: D
    Obi: C-
    Frank: F
    Thibs: B-

    RJ: A
    Randle: C
    Mitch: D
    Payton: F
    Bullock: C-
    Burks: A-
    Knox: D
    IQ: C
    Noel: E
    Obi: D
    Frank: D
    Thibs: C

  204. Chris Hine should feel embarrassed about this opening to his game story about the T-Wolves:

    Timberwolves coach Ryan Saunders will sometimes say “you can smell the popcorn popping” when referring to an exciting atmosphere around a particular game.

    At Wednesday’s season opener, which would usually be one of those popcorn-infused games Saunders said, there was no smelling of any kind for Saunders, except for perhaps his own breath behind the league-mandated mask he wore.

    After nine months without basketball for the Wolves, the club lifted its own mask on what kind of team it might be. The extended offseason for speculation about draft picks, roster and lineup construction finally gave way to actual basketball, with the Wolves beating/falling to the Pistons 111-101.

  205. Only watched the 1st quarter b/c I had to step out.

    Obi had a smaller guy on him at one point and didn’t back him down. Looks like he’s got some jitters and yips out there. 3-7 from 3 is not bad for a stretch-4, but it sounds like from what you guys are saying that he avoided going inside – Turner prolly had him shook.

  206. both phoenix and atlanta are as fun to watch as it seemed like they would be. bridges is really good.

  207. It’s pointless to have Frank bring up the ball, run to the corner, and stand there. That’s not going to work with the players we have. Just trade the poor guy already. He belongs in Dallas where there’s already plenty of scoring and space and they need help on defense at the guard position because Doncic can’t guard anyone, especially not fast PGs. They must have a 2nd rounder they can send to us. Maybe he can have a role off the bench there.

    They. Don’t. Want. Frank. Ntilikina.

  208. Our Centers are cool, sexy and spectacular but not so smart.
    Protecting the rim while avoiding fouls ain’t that hard.
    Nobody asked them to dribble or shoot 3s.
    Just protect the fkn paint wo fouling…

  209. 1st half showed that We Can.
    2nd half showed that if we relax against a good team it’s over.
    We need Top D against good teams otherwise we’re going to become garbage time collectors.

  210. DRed:
    Giannis is getting the original Cleveland Lebron treatment now

    Plus 1

    It’s a very similar situation except Lebron left for better players than Giannis has brought in. And Lebron was better. I think.

  211. #The guy who didn’t play the half where the team got outscored by 20? We’re really doing single game plus minus for a guy who played 12 minutes?#

    How about also thinking that if that guy had played in that half the team probably wouldn’t have been outscored by 20?

  212. Elf is not exactly horrible but he looks to me like a hip pointer injury away from the bench right now.

  213. It’s gonna be a fun season. On KB at least. So much to argue about.

    A search for Mudiay on nba.com comes up empty.

    i didn’t see the game, but the descriptions of Obi’s high arc makes me think how horrible it must be to scrimmage every day against either Mitch or Noel. I know I’d be taking moon shots…

  214. Langston Galloway just came in and hit a three pointer and Mark Jackson said his ability to shoot the ball is exceptional and that you have to pay attention to him and he doesn’t need any time to warm up. Everyone loves Langston.

    Don’t know who is doing the play by play with Jax but I like him….

  215. I know people are upset about Payton starting over IQ, but IQ played 12 of the 21 minutes in the game before getting injured. He was in line for some big minutes tonight.

    Thibs knows what he’s doing and will give IQ the chance to prove himself, or at least show the minimal competence necessary to win the PG spot. For now I don’t mind bringing him off the bench.

  216. Is it more painful than the lap dance Mark Jackson is giving Devin Booker on national television?

    Or how bad Luka is playing?

    It might be. Its actually what I came to post about. Also, I bet Jalen Smith will turn out better than Obi.

  217. Watching Mikal Bridges is almost too painful for me to bear

    I still remember being so happy when it looked like Bridges was going to fall to the Knicks (it was apparent well before the actual day of the draft) and then…well…you know.

  218. any word on the IQ injury?

    it looked like some kind of “hip-pointer” thing…

    That’s precisely what it was. They’re not major injuries, the problem is that certain guys are prone to getting them (specifically shorter guys who play with a certain amount of reckless abandonment).

  219. Crazy ending to the Nuggets Kings game in OT

    There were like four amazing plays. Porter had an insane three point block.

    Then Fox had a crazy black and Barnes took the rebound coast to coast.

    Then Barnes stripped (fouled) Jokic on the inbound and then Fox tipped in the rebound of Barnes miss off the ensuing scramble as time expired. (Barnes was hammered but they didn’t call it either.)

    Worth watching those highlights

  220. pissed me off to see frank go in and not at least try to penetrate to create or actually get to the rim…

    he’s done it in the past, can’t imagine the coaching staff is telling him to give up the ball immediately after crossing the half court line…

  221. Thibs saying he may play Burks more at point says worlds about what he thinks of Frank and DSJ. Probably Payton too.

  222. Man, Karl Towns:

    “You know what I don’t even recognize most of my other games and years I’ve played and how I felt those days. If I can be honest with yall for a second, I mean, I don’t really recall or really care. I only know what happened on April 13th on. Because you see me smiling and stuff but that Karl died on April 13th. He’s never coming back. I don’t remember that man. You’re talking to the physical me but my soul has been killed off a long time ago. I want to really answer your question. I really do. But I only know how I feel from April 13th on. To say it’s been day by day is probably an understatement. I think it’s more moment by moment.

    I’m very fortunate like I said on TV, I’ve got my kids, my niece and nephew who are at the house waiting for me. My sister who has been with me and always been my mom’s favorite. She says she wasn’t, it was me. I think it’s her. That’s just brother and sister. I want to answer your question but that man you’re talking about from April 13th or before, I don’t know him. I don’t recall any parts of him.”

  223. Goddamn, man, they need to get that dude some fucking help. How is your star player talking about how he just pretends to get by day to day and you’re just, like, “Okay, cool, good luck with that. Just don’t miss practice, K?”

  224. Once again RJ seemed to be getting his points in the flow of the game. Maybe my memory is selective but it seemed like he was forcing stuff a lot more last year.

    He looks good out there.

  225. I feel for KAT.

    I just got out of quarantine. My whole family has had it and despite my parents being a billion years old they made it through ok. That was an agonizing sweat of course and then you imagine seven people in your family dying including your mother.

    Just insane

  226. not exactly a high bar but after an iffy preseason … anthony edwards looks like the #1 pick… although that’s more graded on a curve since almost every rookie looks terrible right now….

  227. djphan:
    not exactly a high bar but after an iffy preseason … anthony edwards looks like the #1 pick… although that’s more graded on a curve since almost every rookie looks terrible right now….

    i watched that sacto game tonight and halliburton looked pretty good to me…

  228. The Suns seem like a good bet to over perform their pythagorean record. Between Paul and Booker, I bet they win a wild amount of their close games.

  229. i haven’t checked it out yet but i’m sure he was solid… and will wind up haunting us for years…

    but it was nice seeing edwards do well considering ppl thought he was dogshit in preseason….

  230. Why did no one want Langston Galloway? The NBA offseason makes no sense sometimes. Alec Burks and Langston Galloway not having a market is bonkers.

  231. Owen:
    I feel for KAT.

    I just got out of quarantine. My whole family has hadit and despite my parents being a billion years old they made it through ok. That was an agonizing sweat of course and then you imagine seven people in your family dying including your mother.

    Just insane

    His mother lived down the street from me. Out here in Central Jersey we were in the middle of the some of worst of Covid pandemic in the late Spring due to our proximity to NY and density of the state. It was real sad to hear about his parents, but fortunately his dad pulled through.

  232. Lonzo had a nice game. I will be watching his season very carefully now that he didn’t sign his rookie contract extension.

  233. Obi quote from Vorkunov’s gamer:

    “I just felt like I was trying to find a flow of the game and those were the spots I found,” Toppin said. “I think I had a couple of inside shots but I rushed it a lot. I’m still learning. This is my first real season game and I have a lot to learn. I’m going to take my time and allow everybody to give me feedback on the team and just learn from it.”

    Definitely seems as if our 22-year-old college player of the year rookie is a much less finished product than several younger guys we could have taken at that spot. His upside had better be worth it, and achievable, because man would somebody like Hali or Vassell look really useful on this squad.

  234. well that second half was much less surprising than the first.
    I am not at all shocked that an Elfrid Payton-led team got crushed. In today’s NBA you just cannot have a non-Ben Simmons / non-Giannis primary ball handler that can’t shoot at all – it just decapitates your offense.

    I really do not like the idea of Burks playing PG – those were some of the ugliest minutes in the second half. I thought Frank was fine although he really seemed like he was playing tentatively. He did draw a shooting foul on a drive and did make a nice baseline drive with a dish to Mitch which ended up in a shooting foul.

    They should shoot DSJ and Payton into the sun and let Jared Harper play. Harper would’ve been abused by Brogdon, but Payton was beyond awful (and has no ceiling even when he is playing “well”).

    Re: hip pointers – hard to find any data on that but FWIW Devon Dotson had one in January and played 39 minutes in a game 1 week later.

  235. Re: Obi – I was fine with the shots that he took, but man were some of those bad misses on pretty open shots.
    Very worrisome that maybe his shooting really will not translate. That lowers his ceiling like 1000 feet.
    Feels like he is rushing a little.

    by the way is it me just watching with homer glasses on or did the Knicks get a terrible whistle last night? Felt like Indiana got every call and we got nothing – especially RJ who I thought got hammered on a couple of drives and on a couple of his missed shots.

    (man was he great last night. Totally seemed under control the whole night and never hijacked the offense – all his shots were within the flow of the offense. And not just the scoring but a couple of his passes were really high level- I thought the two that led to Bullock 3’s were really great (see here). by the way on that first one (at ~7min in the 1st) you can see how good Barrett would be with better spacing. He seems to be taking better angles this year when driving).

    Anyway, after a night in which Zion played well in a win against the Raptors and Morant went off for 44, I actually feel pretty good about our draft pick. Hopefully it keeps going this way.

  236. A quick note on Barrett.

    The one year the Knicks actually actively tanked, they got to draft RJ Barrett.

    Sooo…yeah, the Knicks really didn’t know what the fuck they were doing for so many years.

  237. Brian Cronin:
    A quick note on Barrett.

    The one year the Knicks actually actively tanked, they got to draft RJ Barrett.

    Sooo…yeah, the Knicks really didn’t know what the fuck they were doing for so many years.

    This must be a very satisfying fantasy. lol.

  238. First half was much better than expected against a good Pacers team. As much as I liked IQ’s play (a lot), crediting him with RJ’s perfect play, Randall’s 8 assists, and everyone hitting their 3s seems silly. That was unlikely to continue regardless of who was at point.

    Am I wrong to think that Mitch and Noel’s festival of fouls can be trained out of them?

  239. Does anyone know if Thibs has some aversion to the pick and roll? I don’t remember seeing it at all in the first half (didn’t watch the second).

    Also, selecting Obi in itself is questionable. But taking him and giving him a completely different role just is so far from what you’d want. To be fair, the PF position is a really difficult one to fill unless you have AD. There just aren’t many bigs that can do all the things wings or guards can do. I think they picked Obi because it looked as if he had lots of ball skills for a big, but most of those skills aren’t at an NBA level, at least not yet.

  240. Mitch had a couple BS calls against him, and Sabonis is just a really tough matchup for a foul-happy center anyway…

    And re: 1st half v 2nd half — there was bound to be some regression in terms of us hitting 3s and RJ hitting everything, but there’s just no question the offense runs better with IQ. He just has to be guarded everywhere, which opens the entire floor up. Payton was outlier-ish bad yesterday, which I assume won’t continue to the same extent, but he’s just not a good player. He’s on a 1 year $5M contract – there is just no reason to play him except whatever obsession Scott Perry has with him.

  241. Ntilakilla: As opposed to mentioning 12 minutes worth of volume stats like points scored? Hmmmm….

    Raw +/- is a useless statistic. It has no meaning or correlation with being a good player at any sample size. IQ could play every minute of every game for the next 20 years and his raw +/- would still be meaningless.

    Even the modified versions of +/- that account for teammates & opponents take 3-5 years to be meaningful.

    So yeah, quoting +/- is considered a joke around here. While 12 minutes of scoring points is a small sample, it’s (1) a meaningful statistic unlike raw +/- and (2) a statistic that doesn’t take over 3 years to stabilize like RAPM.

  242. DRed:
    Trae Young scored 37 on 12 shots in 25 minutes so far.

    If he learns to defend just adequately (a long path based on last year) people are going to stop laughing at Atlanta for passing on Doncic to get him (and I think eventually Cam Reddish). He’s the WAY better outside shooter, also a very good playmaker, and not such a bad rebounder for an actual PG that theoretically could stay with fast PGs. Doncic is a point forward that will never be able to cover them. Reddish got steadily better last year and may turn out to be a legitimately very good starter. He earned the starting spot yesterday and played well. He’s only 20.

  243. Does anyone know if Thibs has some aversion to the pick and roll? I don’t remember seeing it at all in the first half (didn’t watch the second).

    The only slightly good argument I’ve heard is that Thibs has decided to stress defense first ahead of offense, and so hasn’t really gone over the pick and roll much.

    But yeah, there was a shocking lack of pick and roll last night.

  244. If he learns to defend just adequately (a long path based on last year) people are going to stop laughing at Atlanta for passing on Doncic to get him (and I think eventually Cam Reddish).

    In other words, people are never going to stop laughing at Atlanta passing on Doncic to get him and Reddish.

  245. It’s interesting to learn that Luke Kennard has Defensive Rating worked into his contract as an incentive (he gets a bonus if he gets his Defensive Rating under 105, which seems highly unlikely). It’s still interesting to see an NBA team recognize Defensive Rating as an important stat.

  246. Obviously no firm declarations can be made yet, but the Obi situation is looking like a five-alarm fire if we’re being honest. I didn’t like the pick, but even I thought he’d be one of the more productive rookies by virtue of his age and the nature of his game.

    Instead he’s been less productive than players 2-3 years his junior, and outside of the odd nifty pass here and there he doesn’t seem to be confident in his ability to do anything but chuck ugly looking threes.

    Perhaps this isn’t wholly unrelated to the lack of PNR discussion–it would assuage some of my fears to see him convert a few simple PNR looks because right now he looks completely lost.

  247. ess-dog: Also, selecting Obi in itself is questionable. But taking him and giving him a completely different role just is so far from what you’d want.

    Our future C is Robinson. He scores on lobs and put backs. They needed a stretch PF to go along with him but they selected a forward that primarily scored leaking out, overpowering and being more athletic than kids 2-3 years younger than him, cuts to the basket, lobs etc.. They basically got an athletic version of Randle who along with RJ and others struggled last year because of the lack of space. At the pro level Obi can’t do a lot of what made him successful in college because the players are stronger and more athletic, NBA defenses won’t let him leak out as often, and he’s facing the same space issues that RJ and Randle are up against that make things tougher on them. So he’s doing what is available. He’s shootings NBA 3s. That’s why from day one I’ve been saying he better be able to hit an NBA 3 at a good rate, If he can’t, he’s not a very good fit and much of what he did well in college won’t be available nearly as often. On the plus side, he seems like a great kid with an extraordinary work ethic. So he’ll get better.

    I don’t think people understand how much the “spacing issue” is impacting the efficiency of some of our players. It was a disaster for many of them last year and it’s a problem again this year. Quickley could be a key step in the right direction.

  248. This must be a very satisfying fantasy. lol.

    Top 5 in minutes played in 2016-2017: Carmelo Anthony, Courtney Lee, Kristaps Porzingis, Derrick Rose, Justin Holiday

    Top 5 in minutes played in 2017-2018: Courtney Lee, THJ, Enes Kanter, Frank Ntilikina, Michael Beasley

    There is literally nothing about these seasons that is compatible with asset accumulation, especially considering we never got the First Round Pick for Courtney Lee That We Could Get Whenever We Want.

    Phil Jackson was desperate to snag an 8th seed because he thought that would vindicate the triangle or something, and Mills was a) similarly stupid and b) stuck with Phil’s roster dreck.

    We “tanked” one time, and it got us RJ Barrett.

  249. Obi is 22, but he is very young in terms of basketball played — played against basically no competition at all in high school and mostly as a guard from what I can tell, didn’t play much his freshman year at Dayton, and then of course against A-10 competition his sophomore year. Then no summer league and then an abbreviated training camp – not much time to get used to the much higher level of competition. Then playing in a role that he’s not used to. I think he will be fine, but agree that hitting that NBA 3 is pretty much everything with the roster construction the way it is. IF they ever get a true floor-spacing 5 to play with him, that would be the most helpful to him. Doesn’t seem like Spellman is that guy though.

  250. I’d say even if more of Obi’s threes were going in and his numbers thus artificially looked good, his shot distribution would still be a major cause for concern.

    The guy is never going to be Davis Bertans. There’s no world in which his value on offense comes primarily from shooting threes. If he’s going to make an impact offensively, it’ll be from around the basket.

    Of course it goes without saying a viable 3PT shot will both help him with this and make him more productive in general, but right now it feels like he’s just defaulting to shooting threes because he’s terrified to do what got him to the dance.

    I figured he’d immediately be an offensive presence inside and the real test would be how well he could supplement that necessary but insufficient skill. If we can’t even take that as a given…yikes.

  251. Brian Cronin: In other words, people are never going to stop laughing at Atlanta passing on Doncic to get him and Reddish.

    I don’t know. Most likely that’s true.

    I watched the Dallas game last night and Doncic looked like he spent his vacation in a Twinkie and Ding Dong factory instead of working on his body and shot. He’s a great passer and a magician around the rim, but he can’t defend anyone either and he’s going to get beat up if he keeps going inside with that body.

    The box score models will always love Doncic because he’s a point “forward”. Players like that get both assists and rebounds (usually it’s one or the other), but I think that’s misleading. Reality shows up better in on/off type data. Trae may not get as many rebounds, but he’s got a traditional forward on the court with him doing that job. Doncic is going to need a Beverley type player on the court with him because no way he’ll ever be able to defend fast PGs. He’s a forward.

  252. Obi is 22, but he is very young in terms of basketball played — played against basically no competition at all in high school and mostly as a guard from what I can tell, didn’t play much his freshman year at Dayton, and then of course against A-10 competition his sophomore year.

    If this was meant to be calming, it sort of had the opposite effect for me. ;)

    “Had terrible competition in high school, wasn’t academically eligible as a college freshman, wasn’t good enough to play much as a redshirt freshman, then he beat up on much younger players in a relatively weak conference as a redshirt sophomore, so it should all work out for him now in the NBA.”

  253. Toppin has this year’s Frank Kaminsky written all over him.

  254. Querly Q-Word, Pen Name of Pen Name Early Bird: Raw /- is a useless statistic. It has no meaning or correlation with being a good player at any sample size.

    Wut? This is funny. Me using /- differentials to illustrate why IQ absolutely deserves to be starting PG will get me frozen out of here but multiple people dismissing IQs impact with even more flawed volume statistical logic like this I was responding to won’t?

    One assist in 12 minutes! He’s clearly the future.

    This isn’t serious. No way.

    Shit, use any raw metric you want (WS/48, On/Off Court, ORtg, etc) for the small sample size of minutes he played, and you’ll see the same confirmation of my underlying point: IQ definitely had a positive impact on the game compared to the point guards that replaced him.

    You’re tripping. The rest is nonsense I’m not going to belabor for days like others here.

  255. What the hell is the point of fighting the Quickley wars right now? He was the first point guard off the bench and was clearly in line to receive major minutes. He got hurt and that was derailed.

    Seriously what are we even arguing about?

  256. Obi is different from Kaminsky in that Kaminsky just isn’t a good enough athlete to play in the NBA. At least Obi has that going for him.

    I think he will be fine. Might take a while for the coaching staff to figure out how to best use him, and for him to figure out how to best pick his spots. And the game will slow down for him. He just seems rushed and tentative at the same time if that’s possible.

  257. But what about Toppin last night looked like he was such a good athlete? He couldn’t post up Justin Holiday!

    I’m not even saying he won’t be a good athlete, but nothing I saw last night seemed like he was an NBA-level power forward (or center) from an athletic standpoint. His only visible skills were passing and shooting.

  258. Deeefense: Doncic is going to need a Beverley type player on the court with him because no way he’ll ever be able to defend fast PGs. He’s a forward.

    This is why I think if Frank washes anywhere it will be Dallas. He was made to play with a high usage/ball-handling/no defense playing floormate like Luka.

  259. thenoblefacehumper: We “tanked” one time, and it got us RJ Barrett.

    We tanked to get Porzingis. People can deny this forever but they are delusional.

    Once Melo got hurt and it was apparent the team was full of mal-contents, players we didn’t want, and players that were washed up, the entire team was stripped down (JR and Shump were traded, Amare released, Dalembert released, Melo put on ice to recover), and we tanked the rest of the way trying for Towns. We were in position to get him until the last game or so and then dropped one position in the lottery,

    Staying with Melo as part of the plan and some of the free agency moves that came later were a bad idea. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what the strategy was once Melo was hurt and Phil got a look at the team he partially inherited and partially put together to get rid of Felton the prior year. WE TANKED, got KP, and then Mills/Perry traded him for trash and set us back a few years. The idea was to tank AGAIN while KP was hurt to have BOTH of them.

  260. Once Melo got hurt and it was apparent the team was full of mal-contents, players we didn’t want, and players that were washed up, the entire team was stripped down (JR and Shump were traded, Amare released, Dalembert released, Melo put on ice to recover), and we tanked the rest of the way trying for Towns. We were in position to get him until the last game or so and then dropped one position in the lottery,

    Wow, Jackson decided to “tank” after the team he specifically noted he thought could compete for the #8 seed was 5-35! That was a bold plan. The idea of you acting like Jackson should get credit for that is ill-considered.

  261. Say what you want about injuries and max contracts, but RJ, KP, and Mitch would be a pretty nice combo. Oh well.

  262. Say what you want about injuries and max contracts, but RJ, KP, and Mitch would be a pretty nice combo. Oh well.

    I don’t disagree, but I don’t believe that Kevin Durant wasn’t coming here before the injury (KD’s BS stories about his plans are hilariously contradictory), so imagine RJ, Durant, Kemba Walker and Mitch. That’d be even better.

  263. Well, the first half of his career in a preseason game was great. And being able to bring him off the bench to replace Randle is huge, amirite?

    Ja had a great game.

    Doncic is really good and I’d be really surprised if the Mavs ever regret that deal. He is really out of shape though and he needs to hit his threes at a 40% rate if he wants to be the best player in the NBA

  264. Say what you want about injuries and max contracts, but RJ, KP, and Mitch would be a pretty nice combo. Oh well.

    I definitely would not be happy with that combo solely due to KP’s contract and injury history. That’s why a number of posters here would have been cool with KP leaving for nothing in FA if that’s what it came down to.

  265. obi is playing like the internet told him he needs to shoot 3s to survive in the nba… and it’s killing the whole reason why ppl liked him to begin with…. he was a guy in college that was uber athletic that could score inside in a variety of ways… that had the ability to shoot 3s…. that was a bonus… the 3s were not a primary reason why ppl liked him…

    but now he thinks he needs to be steph curry out there…. but if he can score downlow with enough volume he has all the time in the world to do that…. and that’s what he did in college because those shots came easy… now it isn’t… and instead of trying.. he’s not trying…. that’s terrible! you need to try before you relegate yourself to a specialist role…..

    someone get him on twitter or instagram and just bomb him with this…..

  266. What is clear to me is that the Knicks need another capable point guard, someone to push Payton into the seat now occupied by Dennis Smith Jr., who needs to go. That extra point guard, and I don’t care if it’s a starter or the first guard off the bench, needs to be able to run an offense. Sadly, I’ve looked around the league and don’t see one we could trade for. Halliburton. Oh, how I wish we had Halliburton.

  267. thenoblefacehumper:
    Seriously what are we even arguing about?

    I dunno what anyone else is arguing about. But these are the nonsense statements I take issue with.

    I can’t believe Thom Thibodeaux isn’t starting a guy who didn’t play point guard in college on the basis of two preseason games against maybe the worst defense in the NBA

    The guy who didn’t play the half where the team got outscored by 20? We’re really doing single game plus minus for a guy who played 12 minutes?

    One assist in 12 minutes! He’s clearly the future.

    I know there are people who will rush to wipe Thibs’ ass in the general Knicks fandom right now in the honeymoon period. But its clear he’s fucking up every extra minute he leaves Elfrid Payton in a starting lineup with RJ Barrett. I don’t see the point of it beyond satisfying a guy on a one year contract who will be gone in a season’s time.

  268. Wow, Jackson decided to “tank” after the team he specifically noted he thought could compete for the #8 seed was 5-35! That was a bold plan. The idea of you acting like Jackson should get credit for that is ill-considered.

    Even looking only at that year, Strat is in a bind arguing that Phil wanted to rebuild when he was doing things like using a second round pick to dump Travis Wear and foregoing a first-round pick to dump JR Smith.

    He only “tanked” in as much as the team was very bad. It’s not surprising Strat conflates that with tanking/rebulding/asset-collecting/whatever you want to call it because he’s never understood the strategy.

  269. But what about Toppin last night looked like he was such a good athlete? He couldn’t post up Justin Holiday!

    I’m not even saying he won’t be a good athlete, but nothing I saw last night seemed like he was an NBA-level power forward (or center) from an athletic standpoint. His only visible skills were passing and shooting.

    +1. This is what’s worrying me most about Obi is that he doesn’t pop from an athletic perspective at all. It’s true that we’ve seen in preseason that if you give him a straight line to the hoop he can dunk the ball from the top of the square. That’s cool stuff but it’s pretty different than applied NBA athleticism. Have we seen him get one dunk that wasn’t uncontested yet in all his games? He just can’t get to the rim at all when he’s defended even slightly right now and absent that talking about his “athleticism” is basically just talking about the cool dunks he can do in an empty gym.

  270. I know there are people who will rush to wipe Thibs’ ass in the general Knicks fandom right now in the honeymoon period. But its clear he’s fucking up every extra minute he leaves Elfrid Payton in a starting lineup with RJ Barrett. I don’t see the point of it beyond satisfying a guy on a one year contract who will be gone in a season’s time.

    Thibs and/or the front office probably want to avoid a situation in which Quickley is given the starting job, plays terribly, and then has to have it revoked. I don’t see the big deal as long as Quickley plays in general, and it sure seems like the plan is for him to play.

    If Quickley is better than Payton he’ll probably snag the job before too long. Insisting on him getting it before he does that seems like a fight you pick when there isn’t anything more interesting to discuss, which, yeah, fair.

  271. RJ produced more Win Shares in his one game last night than he did in all of the 56 he played his rookie season.

  272. you need nba minutes from positions that handle the ball… or else you get what you got during fiz’s tenure.. which is nice for tanking purposes but then the nba is going to start wondering what you’re doing… randle and rj and a whole host of players were handling the ball more than they should… rj had an assisted fg% in the 30s… randle was in the 40s…. and those were both a lot lower until payton came back…..

    whatever you hate about payton he’s the only that gives you 9+ assists per 36 vs 3 TO.. and for as many players that depend on someone else creating for them… or not ready to take on more of the offense that is pretty important…..

    this board is too obsessed with 3pt shooting… everyone says we need more shooting… well burks and bullock are here to shoot more on exactly the type of contracts payton provides.. what’s the point of burks and bullock also? they provide shooting when we need shooting? yea! payton is here because we need someone to create shots for others… that’s probably more important than shooting….

    and while it would be nice if we had someone better… they’re also way more expensive… you want to give augustin the contract he got? you want to trade for bledsoe? sign dragic? sign fvv or cp3? no? then you get payton….

    it woulda been nice if we actually got someone like haliburton since we not only needed a pg but he was probably the best player on the board… but we didn’t.. so this is what you’re stuck with…. this is best part of a shit sandwich and there’s a whole year to put up with it until the draft next year where we can hopefully address it for good…

  273. I’m confused we are not supposed to be up about IQ bc of “small sample size” “one game, 12 minutes” yadayada but we are supposed to be concerned about our other rookie Toppin?

  274. thenoblefacehumper:
    What the hell is the point of fighting the Quickley wars right now? He was the first point guard off the bench and was clearly in line to receive major minutes. He got hurt and that was derailed.

    Seriously what are we even arguing about?

    +1 to this too. Quickley was getting plenty of burn and playing fine, not great, but fine in his minutes before the injury. Elfrid was absolutely awful last night but is generally fine overall, and clearly deserves to be in the rotation on this team given the other options. So Thibs was playing the right two PGs in a totally reasonable ratio. Choosing to focus on this aspect of the game is just weird.

    If we want to talk about Thibs rotations the thing I liked the least was only 9 minutes for Noel. He has two extremely foul prone Cs and there’s going to be nights when they’re both in foul trouble, but both guys ended the game on 3 fouls. He’s going to need to let one or both of them play through foul trouble sometimes for this to work.

  275. But what about Toppin last night looked like he was such a good athlete? He couldn’t post up Justin Holiday!

    His defense, actually. Not that it was good – the game is too fast for him at the moment – but there were a variety of plays where he made very athletic moves to get a deflection, recover from a mistake, or block a shot. He is definitely quick.

    I’m not saying he played well in any way. He was intimidated and tentative, as I said during the game. But I am not freaked out by that, since despite his age he is still a rookie, and what matters isn’t where he is now (with no summer league, no real training camp, and not even the second half of his college season). What matters is how he learns as the year goes on. Just as people need to slow down the Quickly train (though I think there’s an NBA player there at minimum, and probably a good one, and possibly a quality starter), they also need to slow down the “I’m worried he’s a bust” train. He wouldn’t have been my pick, but Jesus, give him maybe 30 games before coming to any conclusions?

  276. I’m confused we are not supposed to be up about IQ bc of “small sample size” “one game, 12 minutes” yadayada but we are supposed to be concerned about our other rookie Toppin?

    shot mix (3pr)… ftr… and rebounding converge pretty quickly so you can make inferences with small samples…

  277. Quickley came in relatively early, played 12 straight minutes, and probably would have finished out the first half if he hadn’t crashed into Turner. I think Thibs knows he’s a more promising option than Elf right now. As he said pregame, starters matter much less to him than overall minutes distribution and who finishes the game.

  278. Only thing I didn’t like about RJ’s game was only 1/2 from the free throw line. He was fantastic finishing at the rim last night but for him to be the high volume high usage scorer we’re all hoping for getting to the line (and converting) is probably going to have to be a part of his game and I’m still a little worried about that. Otherwise a fantastic start for him.

  279. If Quickley is better than Payton he’ll probably snag the job before too long. Insisting on him getting it before he does that seems like a fight you pick when there isn’t anything more interesting to discuss, which, yeah, fair.

    I’m just ornery after last night’s win, especially considering the way we lost it and the fact there are people still here playing the “only a few preseason games” card for why we have to qualify what we’re seeing with the team when IQ is in the game.

  280. I’m just ornery after last night’s win,

    Edit: “last night’s loss”. I guess my Freudian slip says it all. We were playing so well, until we weren’t.

  281. Brian Cronin: Wow, Jackson decided to “tank” after the team he specifically noted he thought could compete for the #8 seed was 5-35! That was a bold plan. The idea of you acting like Jackson should get credit for that is ill-considered.

    I’m not giving him credit. I’m stating reality.

    The reality is he inherited a catastrophe of mal contents that no one wanted (Felton, JR Smith and an emerging problem with Shump/JR ), players that wanted out (Chandler), no 1st round picks for 2 out of the first 3 years, some washed up players (like Amare and Bargs), and Melo.

    He went into the season hoping to compete, but he was wrong. Some guys were washed, others were idiots, and Melo was hurt (he was only playing because he wanted to play in the all star game moron that he is).

    So Phil did the obvious and right thing. He got rid of everyone that could contribute any wins that he didn’t want long term anyway so we could get Towns.

    Is it so hard to say “we tanked” because you hate Phil so much or because of how much you love tanking and admitting that Phil tanked for KP sets our tank starting date back?

    We’d be in great shape if we still had KP or got a good player for him (if Mills/Perry were afraid of the injury risk). He’s the exact player we need. We need a stretch PF creating space that can also play C if Mitch gets into foul trouble or to team with a guy like Randle at times. If it wasn’t him we certainly could have done better than DSjr. They screwed the rebuild up chasing fantasies. But the tanking rebuild started with KP.

  282. Is it so hard to say “we tanked” because you hate Phil so much or because of how much you love tanking and admitting that Phil tanked for KP sets our tank starting date back?

    Even if you want to ignore reality and pretend Phil’s first season constituted a “tank,” how can you call it a “tank starting date” when right after the season he went back to trying to win as many games as possible with no regard for asset collection? Does that not reset the “tank starting date?” Were we still “tanking” when he signed Joakim Noah by this logic?

  283. i still can’t believe that ppl want to talk about quickley’s 12 minutes over rj’s game ….

    this is really like frank all over again…..

  284. Thibs went to freaking Alec Burks at the PG which may have been the first time Burks played that position since college in an effort to avoid having Payton out there as Thibs later said “cuz we need more shooting out there”…so I would not get too concerned about Payton’s time on the floor going forward if in the 1st game of the season the head coach is already reluctant to put the starting PG out there when the roof is caving in but run out a new free agent SG to run the point…that in of itself should foreshadow how things are looking for payton….

    On Toppin…while it is not very good early…I agree on above statement about giving him 20-30 games to figure out things…I believe he stated as such in his post game press conf…now…Knox has been the same way about acknowledging what he needs to do better and then never doing it …so there is that possibility…awareness doesn’t translate to doing it…but let’s give him some time…but i was very sad watching halliburton last night and knowing he was there for the taking…

  285. Obi looks like Frankenstein’s monster out there, like his upper and lower bodies don’t match up. The hope is that he will work really hard to adapt and improve, but the way he moves is unsettling. He has good court vision, which is hard to teach. He puts a ton of arc on the ball…also good if it goes in. But he has a lot of skill/footwork work to do if he is going to come anywhere near justifying a lottery pick.

    I’m not going to get too excited about anything any of the rookies do until they’ve been scouted and the league starts game-planning for them i.e. taking away their strengths. But the reasons why virtually nobody here would have picked Obi over the next 5-6 guys picked are pretty much in evidence right now.

  286. djphan:
    i still can’t believe that ppl want to talk about quickley’s 12 minutes over rj’s game ….

    this is really like frank all over again…..

    Because he’s actually easier to replace on the team right now with the preexisting roster than Quickley is. And it’s not because IQ is the better player, BTW, but because our remaining rotation of PGs are so booty. Like its a night and day difference between Payton/Frank/DSJ/Burks at the #1 and even someone who is just serviceable there.

    But, yes, let’s talk about RJ. Dude is so smooth. I don’t want to jinx it because the irrational reptilian part of my brain steeped in a superstitious Catholic upbringing tells me that in celebrating his apparent arrival God will curse our hubris with a wrath Torahaic in its proportions.

  287. Classic Russ game last night: the usual triple double and explosive dunks, but 21 points on 22 shots and 6 turnovers.

    Good luck Wizards.

  288. Re: RJ, the 3-pt stroke looks better, no doubt about it. He looked like a #3 pick last night, which is all you can ask for at this point.

  289. Begley asked a physical therapist who doesn’t work for the team to speculate on Quickley’s recovery time:

    “You don’t come back from these the next day,” said the therapist, who has worked for other NBA teams. “He probably won’t be available this weekend.”

  290. The research I did says 1-3 weeks. Maybe icing it right away helped to get it down to 1. No rush, though, let Frank get some burn.

  291. Hip pointers are similar to bone bruises. They are all over the place. Some are significant, others are a lot less significant. So I don’t think we’ll know for sure until after the weekend.

  292. Considering we haven’t had a notable PG prospect in, like 100 years, I see no problem with discussing Quickley on any level. Folks here can multitask in case anyone hasn’t noticed.

  293. RJ was more valuable last night than he was in the entire preceding 56 game season. And the best part was that his game doesn’t look “flukey” at all. He was composed, contained, and showed lots of improved skills on his shot and footwork. Him becoming a credible #2 type star on a championship contender would go a great way towards rebuilding this team.

  294. The best thing for Quickley’s rep would be to miss the next two games, see the Knicks look terrible as they fall to 0-3 and then return for the Cleveland game and lead them a win. :)

  295. By the way, I knew that the Knicks had a tough opening schedule, but I didn’t realize just how tough. It’s hard searching for realistic wins in there. I’m sure there will be some upsets mixed in there, but dang.

  296. Brian Cronin:
    By the way, I knew that the Knicks had a tough opening schedule, but I didn’t realize just how tough. It’s hard searching for realistic wins in there. I’m sure there will be some upsets mixed in there, but dang.

    yeah, hopefully it will pay off in some realistic reckoning about what it takes to win.

  297. A few random thoughts after watching the 1st half replay:

    I’d like to see Thibs go nuts the next time there’s a questionable foul call on Mitch. He’s getting a bad whistle and it’s the coach’s job to protect him. Remember how PJ used to do it for his players when he was a coach?

    The defense wasn’t great. Too many easy layups for the Pacers.

    I love it that RJB doesn’t go for the spectacular, or hero ball. He’s good and steady presence out there.

    I’m not totally on Quickly’s bandwagon yet. He has skills and his aggression is great but, well, he looks very much like a rookie and it’s hard for me to see what’s his floor / ceiling yet.

    Toppin’s line is not good, and he seems like he doesn’t know his place on the court yet. I think he’ll figure it out and oh, wow, those passes he makes are a complete joy.

    I don’t care if Frank plays or not. That’s real progress in terms of the young talent level on the Knicks.

  298. RJ’s jumper looked incredibly smooth. Just the motion looks so much better than last year that I actually want to believe in his shot. Keith Smart is the worst thing that could have happened to the Knicks last year and that’s saying a lot. We have a bunch of players who need to improve their shot and he set them all back at least a year. I’m ready to eat all the crow when it comes to RJ. At this point I’m pretty convinced that he’ll have an exceptional year.

    Based on the few minutes he played w/o a PG, I’d say RJ still can’t create against a set defense. It’s not a huge concern to me since he’s more of a 2nd or 3rd star and young enough to keep working on that part of his game. Hopefully he proves me wrong here too.

    IQ may honestly benefit from sitting our next 2 games against Ben Simmons and Jrue Holiday, arguably 2 of the best (or are they actually just the 2 best?) PG defenders in the league (maybe this part of why Thibs wants IQ off the bench to start the year, Brogdon, Simmons, Jrue is a hell of a welcome to the NBA?). I’d expect whoever we run out there the next 2 games will look bad pretty much no matter what.

  299. Brian Cronin:
    The best thing for Quickley’s rep would be to miss the next two games, see the Knicks look terrible as they fall to 0-3 and then return for the Cleveland game and lead them a win. :)

    Apparently BC already addressed this while I was typing, lol. Simmons & Holiday are going to wreck our PGs.

  300. Z-man: yeah, hopefully it will pay off in some realistic reckoning about what it takes to win.

    In your formulaic sports movie scenario focused on a bunch of lovable loser type protagonists, this would be the period where the underdogs get their asses kicked by the main antagonists/best teams in the league before the midpoint where they begin to figure things out and ascend to unlikely winners.

  301. @Ntilakilla,

    Sorry my issue is really more with /- than IQ himself. I like IQ. Also got a little carried away after a frustrating loss. Did not do a good job of expressing myself.

  302. The defense wasn’t great. Too many easy layups for the Pacers.

    Yeah there hasn’t been much talk about the defense but giving up a 114 DRtg in a game where the other team shot 23% from 3 is a huge concern. For a Thibs defense that’s supposed to be built from the inside out I agree way too much stuff at the rim. Only 30 minutes for Noel+Mitch combined is part of the problem but also I didn’t think either had a particularly good game in terms of rim deterrence.

  303. one of mitch’s second order problems is that he is destined to get a “bad whistle” because he is uniquely bad at idling and/or verticality. it’s both a feature and a bug. like strat with one hand on a tvinikie and the other at the claw machine of a pub in st. petersburg in 1937, he just can’t control his inner pokémon.

    so on that first foul last night when sabonis kind of elbows him backward, he doesn’t provide the who-me silhouette of a tim duncan mannequin you need to get a fair share of those whistles, either rightly or wrongly. a similar thing happens with cases like the second call (clearly unfair) where his hands are coming down and splay like the flailing tarantula he is, as opposed to a straight and languid sculpture like gobert would be. he can definitely cut down on his truly stupid fouls like going for steals 30 ft out, but some portion of this probably won’t ever change.

  304. Yeah there hasn’t been much talk about the defense but giving up a 114 DRtg in a game where the other team shot 23% from 3 is a huge concern. For a Thibs defense that’s supposed to be built from the inside out I agree way too much stuff at the rim. Only 30 minutes for Noel+Mitch combined is part of the problem but also I didn’t think either had a particularly good game in terms of rim deterrence.

    What struck me was that Noel and Mitch weren’t actually bad at rim deterrence, but the Pacers were just doing a great job at avoiding them. Noel and Mitch were sort of like islands on defense out there. No support around them.

  305. Yeah, Doug McDermott was a one man Princeton offense. Not sure where the defense is going to come from.

    I said it about 250 comments up but the Pacers are a really good complete team.

    I sat my son down to watch the game last night, our first game ever together. We snuggled up on the sofa under a blanket and it was magical. I explained to him that I had loved watching the Knicks when I was a kid and that my father had watched them win a championship. I told him about Clyde and Willis and Patrick. Then I said we hadn’t been good for a while and it might be a while before we were good but that as a 6 year old he had a reasonable chance of them being good during his childhood.

    Then I explained that the team we were playing, the Pacers, was very good and we were probably going to lose by a lot. He asked me what a Pacer was and I said it was a race car.

    “Dad, I want to root for the Pacers.”

    “But I root for the Knicks.”

    “I know”

    “They play in Indiana. You should root for the team in your hometown. All your friends will root for them too.”

    “I don’t want to. I am going to be a Pacer fan.”

    “Forever?”

    “Forever Dad”

    Smart kid

  306. That’s a funny story Owen.

    I remember my son’s early days trying to get him to become a Knicks fan, but of course it was way easier back in the day because they were actually good. But he’s been a diehard ever since and it makes me sad to think how far we are from celebrating a championship together,

    My wife and I are in the process of downsizing, and we recently went through some of his old stuff, including teeny little Alan Houston and John Starks jerseys. We gave them away, kind of a sad moment.

  307. mitch just can’t seem to not bite on fakes. He has to learn to keep his feet on the ground and not care if someone scores over him so much.

  308. It can’t be an iron rule of the universe that the Knicks will suck as long as Jim Dolan is the owner. It just can’t.

  309. Brian Cronin: What struck me was that Noel and Mitch weren’t actually bad at rim deterrence, but the Pacers were just doing a great job at avoiding them. Noel and Mitch were sort of like islands on defense out there. No support around them.

    Yeah I agree. I’m not trying to put it all on those two – as I said they didn’t actually play all that much and we’ve got a bunch of other issues – bad defenders at the 4 and a lack of physicality on the wing that mean for sure too often the rim protection mandate falls entirely on those 2 when a good defense needs it to be a group effort. I just didn’t think either had a particularly good game and that’s kind of what we need from them if this is going to be a good defense given the other limitations. 3 blocks for Mitch and a couple other nice moments but I didn’t think his overall level of intimidation was quite what we’ve seen at his best, maybe thrown off the early foul trouble a bit.

  310. mitch just can’t seem to not bite on fakes. He has to learn to keep his feet on the ground and not care if someone scores over him so much.

    Yeah, that’s very fair, especially since his freakish length allows him to alter shots without even jumping.

  311. Yeah, Doug McDermott was a one man Princeton offense. Not sure where the defense is going to come from.

    Yeah, so many times there were these backdoor cuts where Mitch and Noel couldn’t do anything about it. That has to be their other guys. The other guys weren’t there at all. But credit to the Pacers for exploiting that. The Pacers’ offensive intelligence went up a lot since last year with this new coach. Why doesn’t everyone just steal from the Raptors coaching tree going forward?

  312. Brian Cronin: Yeah, that’s very fair, especially since his freakish length allows him to alter shots without even jumping.

    He should just study film of Myles Turner, who may be the best shot blocker in the league technique-wise and who has the same fast-twitch profile as Mitch. You don’t hunt blocks 1-on-1…just force tough shots and live with results. Blocks in the first 3 quarters should come off of weak side help and wings coming into the paint. Save the more dramatic ones vs. bigs for the 4th quarter. You can’t play D from the bench.

  313. he may improve on the margins, but the vast majority of guys don’t make major improvements from mitch’s extreme tendencies from watching film of very diffeeent athletes. roy hibbert is an example of a guy who got a lot of acclaim for learning verticality but he was a gazillion miles from mitch. hakeem was a guy who mitch’s incredible reflexes but also always, always had a strong element of seemingly intrinsic control. in 7 years noel has learned to make modestly fewer mistakes but is still a huge biter of fakes and is still well below average at taking charges and verticality. i suspect that if mitch managed to teach himself to not bite on fakes it might come at the expense of much of what he is good at, and he would look josh smith did when he just randomly started stopping in the paint like he was playing freeze tag.

    i am definitely not saying he can’t improve on the margins or that the margins don’t matter. in fact last year i was hoping he’d do a better job grabbing some of the low hanging fruit than he did. but i think it would be almost as hard for mitch to watch tape of tom duncan and translate much of it to his game efficiently as it would for knox to watch tape of bernard king to learn body control on offense.

  314. the fouling kind of sucks but it’s not that big a deal… or at least a long term big deal… shotblockers generally carry a lot of fouls… gobert… embiid… whiteside.. ibaka…even turner… kp is somewhat of an outler since he spends less time in the paint and generally allergic to physical play….

    to this day those guys are still getting roughly about 4 fouls per 36…. and it took them around 2-4 years to get below 5 fouls per 36 which is where mitch is at now… so i don’t think he’s perpetually destined for a bad whistle… he’s still within that window of figuring out how to play good defense and doing that without fouling… and it’s not too late for him… in fact it’s sort of normal….

  315. Mitch and Noel are a good tandem, but they need to be a trio because of the way that they play and NBA refs use their whistles. The rules make it tough for a center to defend the paint. Shrewd opponents will get them in foul trouble, like Sabonis did.

  316. pt I don’t agree because we’ve seen Mitch dial it back at times. There’s a huge chasm between being passive per se and being an effective utilizer of one’s god-given length. Mitch is 22 and on his 3rd coach in 3 years, and the first one with any defensive chops. He looked bad against Sabonis, but that could be true of most defensive C’s, including Gobert…Sabonis is very, very good and a very crafty offensive player in the post who has added a 3-ball to his arsenal. It doesn’t get any easier for a while…Embiid then Giannis/Lopez then Drummond…so there’s lots of good reps to provide Thibs with teaching opportunities.

    Noel seems like more of a flailer with body control problems, whereas Mitch seems more fluid on both ends and has better hands and body control in space than Noel…it seems like a b-ball IQ thing with him…let’s face it, he’s not really a student of the game at this point. He’s also got a center-of-gravity problem, making it very tough for him to hold his ground at his current level of strength.

    One thing that might have helped is having a burly post-up style banger C on the roster for him to go against. The closest thing is Julius, and he’s no Sabonis, Lopez or Drummond. Maybe they can bring in Rasheed to tutor him…

  317. but multiple people dismissing IQs impact with even more flawed volume statistical logic like this I was responding to won’t?

    His NBA career is 12 fucking minutes long. You can’t make any statistical arguments about it.

  318. DRed: His NBA career is 12 fucking minutes long.You can’t make any statistical arguments about it.

    With the possible exception of Kevin Knox…
    :-)

    Happy Holidays to all of you, and a great Festivus for the rest of us!

  319. Mitch and Noel are a good tandem, but they need to be a trio because of the way that they play and NBA refs use their whistles. The rules make it tough for a center to defend the paint. Shrewd opponents will get them in foul trouble, like Sabonis did.

    They have a pile of guards that Thibs will never play, so I guess they might as well add an emergency center. Kenny Wooten is available!

  320. dang owen, sorry to hear the virus hit home in your family…good to hear though that you all made it through…

    just keep feeding your son them knick games, maybe sneak a little gear in from time to time, he’ll come around eventually…

  321. The way RJ is playing seems sustainable to me. He’s playing a smarter brand of ball, his shot seems improved and so does his finishing at the rim. He didn’t get to the line much last night but his FT shooting in the preseason is another sign that he really worked on his game during the offseason.

    Which also confirms that he has strong intangibles. I’m liking his game a lot, he’s showing some good basketball IQ.

  322. At the very least this team seems alot funner to watch than the last few years due to the mix of kids and young veterans. But fuck how much better would this team be right now if they hadn’t drafted Frank and Knox?? There are so many players drafted right after those 2 that would make this team instantly better it really is ridiculous how badly the front office messed up those 2 picks.

    I’m not going to pile on with the Obi pick yet because while his play so far has been very discouraging I still see glimmers of hope in the way he plays and the fact that he is willing to take 3pters. Also the rookie class last night for the most part played pretty poor, yes we all wanted guys like Haliburton and Vassell and it seems apparent already that they will probably be much more productive than Obi but its still early to shit on the Obi pick. But again if you include Obi that would be 3 out of the last 4 years where the Knicks missed drastically with their lottery pick and as Brian mentioned the only one they seem to have hopefully hit on is RJ which was the 3rd pick and pretty much the obvious choice at that spot too.

    Picking 8th and 9th is tough and unfortunately I think that’s exactly where they will be picking again next year because I do believe this team will win enough games to finish in the back end of the Top 10 once again, the difference being that at least this season the wins should come mostly due to young players that give us hope for the future.

  323. The Knox pick is always going to bother me more than the Frank pick, tbh. If we’d gone with sort of draft consensus in 2017 we would have probably drafted DSJ or maybe Monk, and they also suck.

  324. It’s too early to feel anything about Obi other than naked fear.

    Halliburton played 30 minutes last night off the bench , 12 points on 9 true shots, 4 assists, 2 boards and no turnovers. And a block! He was a plus 1 in a win, although the Nuggets were robbed honestly.

    So I am not feeling that great about passing on him. But only time will tell.

    As was mentioned upthread watching Mikal Bridges guard Doncic was a really unsettling experience. He’s a good defender.

    And thanks Geo

  325. I agree with Dred it’s hard to get too angry about the Frank pick because the other likely choices were DSj and Monk. No one was really pushing for Mitchell or Bam and they were the only good players picked within 10 picks after Frank. So it was a bad spot to be picking in and we were probably going to get screwed with that pick no matter what. The Knox pick was much more unforgivable. He was a pretty big reach and Michael Porter Jr had dropped due to his injury and many of us were excited to see him available, and if not him a lot of other people were pushing for Bridges who would have also been better.

  326. Yup. After the fact, there were some rumblings that Phil liked Mitchell, but preferred Frank as a guy to run the triangle, but at the time all the smoke was about Frank, DSJ, and Monk as the three candidates for our pick. Whereas either Bridges would have been a better version of the guy they thought Knox was, SGA was clearly the better prospect from the same damn team, and Porter was the more clear high upside play. Frank was a bad pick, but Knox was so, so much worse. There was no defending it that night, and there’s been no defending it since, not even on the nights where he looks like Novak 2.0.

  327. The Knicks couldn’t wait a year for Porter to get healthy. They needed a rookie who could contribute right away, like…Knox?

  328. See, I’m just considering this as Knox’s rookie season. He is actually younger than Quickley after all and this is the first season where he looks remotely physically ready to compete. His 2-5 with a couple of steals ain’t half bad for a rook just getting his feet wet! Go Kev!!

  329. As a member of Team Optimist, I’d like to say the following:
    1. Before drafting Obi, we’ve recently been picking guys that were relatively high-ceiling/low floor (except Mitch). My feeling on drafting Obi is that he would start at a higher floor of production in his 1st season. And since we haven’t gone the “high floor” route in quite awhile, many of us are concerned that Obi isn’t producing or flashing right away. Allowing for possible physical limitations, right now the biggest issue I see w/Obi is that his head and body isn’t aligned out there – he’s thinking too much.
    2. We all know Knox is bad. Objectively. That said: the one caveat I’ve always thought about him is that he’s a “blank canvas”. I don’t know if he’ll ever develop enough to justify a 2nd contract (the odds are against it right now) particularly if his D never improves, but I wonder what this season could look like for him if the light comes on in his head and he consistently shows the wetness from outside he flashed in the last preseason game.
    Perhaps developing Knox is akin to building/baking a fickle multi-layer cake; Thibs & Co are The Cake Boss – and Fizdale/etc were Hasbro Easy Bakers.

  330. ptmilo: a similar thing happens with cases like the second call (clearly unfair) where his hands are coming down and splay like the flailing tarantula he is, as opposed to a straight and languid sculpture like gobert would be. he can definitely cut down on his truly stupid fouls like going for steals 30 ft out, but some portion of this probably won’t ever change.

    lol and a guilty tarantula at that. That’s why the coach has to tell the refs f* you, he’s my star center and you’re letting me keep him in the game or I’m getting on your case like a drunk alligator.

  331. See, I’m just considering this as Knox’s rookie season.

    Sadly, this is fair, given what a horrible developmental system he played in the previous two seasons under Fiz, Smart, et al.

  332. Burks at point guard. Bloom coming off the Thibs rose pretty quickly for this fan.

    Everyone remembers the old saying and it certainly applies to Frank. In basketball, as in life, Yahweh/Allah/Zeus/God/Jupiter/Whomever helps those who help themselves, and Frank never seems to help himself. That said, it’s kind of like he’s just always been … on probation.(*) I’d have liked to have seen him be developed as opposed to always being on probation, especially when people like Elfrid Payton are never on anything close to probation.

    I pretty much always hate when coaches get and maintain their little tic obsessions, and Thibs’s little tic obsession seems to be that you need a “scorer” at PG, which probably comes from his earliest days as a head coach with MVP Rose. It isn’t true in the least, and it just shows stubbornness and it’s even more silly when you realize that Elfrid Payton … is not a scorer.

    Toppin is one of those dudes that are too smart and perceptive for their own good and it makes them think when they should be just playing. The fact that he’s moved up a level is obviously in his conscious mind and that comes from being too smart and perceptive and he just needs to get it out of there. That can come with time. He needs to play like he gives zero or at most one fuck and he plays like he gives five.

    With all that said, if RJ keeps developing toward 1/1A/high 2 quality (**), things could look up, although there’s always the very reasonable fear that Dolan’s Razor will lead to him wanting to leave like KP wanted to.

    (*) Zach Lowe’s among the more dedicated and perceptive watchers of the association, and he said this today:

    It’s not quite a make-or-break season for Frank Ntilikina, Kevin Knox II, and Mitchell Robinson, but we’re getting there. Ntilikina and Robinson should get closer to maximizing their massive potential on defense under one of the greatest defensive coaches ever. (Ntilikina is already really good. Play him, Thibs!)

    (**) One of KB’s many charms is the manic depression routinely on display, which we see today in RJ being a walking, talking justification for tanking whereas a few short days ago, the Clarke Bars were saying he was a clear bust.

  333. Looks like this is shaping up to be one of those things we’re all going to have to pronounce ourselves upon sooner or later, and since I’m a Lions fan in NYC, I’m one of the few who had the advantage of seeing his first broadcast a few weeks ago against Washington FC.

    I like Aqib Talib.

  334. (*) Zach Lowe’s among the more dedicated and perceptive watchers of the association, and he said this today:

    Zach went behind the ESPN paywall a few weeks ago, along with most of the ESPN writers I like, and while I pay for many other sports sites like The Athletic and Defector, ESPN at the moment hasn’t made that list. I’m curious where he ranked us on the League Pass ratings. Pretty low, I’m guessing.

  335. At the very least this team seems alot funner to watch than the last few years due to the mix of kids and young veterans.

    Not picking on you because tons of people have said it but every year at this time we get posts about how “the team is going to stink but at least this year they will be fun to watch!”. Maybe this is the year that it turns out to be true, but I’m just saying I think it’s pretty hard to say that with confidence right now given that it’s something people predict every single year that always turns out questionably. The team is always fun and exciting when it’s the first week and everything is shiny and new, and it’s always a lot less exciting when they’re slogging to a lifeless 18-point loss in Charlotte some time in March.

  336. If you pay for ESPN+ don’t you get access to the writers behind the paywall too? I have a yearly subscription to ESPN+ and I get access to all their insider content too, really is worth the price.

  337. I don’t watch enough sports outside of the teams I follow (Knicks, Yankees, Giants) to need ESPN+ itself. And I already got Hulu and Disney+ on discounts prior to the creation of the Hulu/Disney+/ESPN+ package. I have too many subscriptions as it is, and a kid going to college soon, so trying to draw the line on additional expenses.

  338. (And I say this fully aware that my employer put up a paywall this year, too. It’s hard out here for media companies.)

  339. Mitchell Robinson has been at worst a pretty good NBA player for two years already. At worst he’s something like the 15th best center in the league. Frank Ntilikina has been an awful NBA player for 3 seasons. Their careers are similar in the sense that they have played basketball in the NBA for the Knicks, but that’s about it.

  340. DRed: His NBA career is 12 fucking minutes long.You can’t make any statistical arguments about it.

    Yes you can, which you did with that “1 assist” comment. Just because a sample is small doesn’t mean you can’t make an inference on the data in that sample. The question of whether you can infer anything beyond it is another question altogether. As of now we’re seeing how much better the team looks with iQ in the lineup vs. every other PG on our roster. That may change, but until then what we’re seeing is pretty clear.

  341. Hmmm…I wonder if the Knicks are working on a deal with Frank involved and don’t want to play out of injury concern…..nah, that would mean he had trade value…

  342. Time of possession leaders for rebuilding Knicks:1. Elfrid Payton 4.7 minutes2. Julius Randle 4 minutes3. RJ Barrett 3.1 minutes Touches for rebuilding Knicks:1. Julius Randle 932. Elfrid Payton 513. Alec Burks 494. RJ Barrett 46 https://t.co/UP2ZUtZfOs— Bootum (@DaRealBootum) December 24, 2020

  343. Yes you can, which you did with that “1 assist” comment. Just because a sample is small doesn’t mean you can’t make an inference on the data in that sample. The question of whether you can infer anything beyond it is another question altogether. As of now we’re seeing how much better the team looks with iQ in the lineup vs. every other PG on our roster. That may change, but until then what we’re seeing is pretty clear.

    I didn’t make any 1 assist comment. I’m fine playing Quickley. You can’t infer anything going forward from 12 minutes against one team.

  344. Z-man:
    PS Indiana is very, very good. I wouldn’t want to play them in the first round.

    The Pacers are actually my model for what a Knicks rebuild should look like. They are definitely good, but they didn’t get that way by attracting big name free agents or by having high lottery picks. Their highest lottery picks in the past 20 years were two number 11’s and a number 10. They did do well with those picks (Myles Turner, Paul George and Bayless) but that just supports my conclusion that they got good by making lots of smart decisions over time, not by one shot miracle transactions or draft picks.

  345. DRed: I didn’t make any 1 assist comment.I’m fine playing Quickley.You can’t infer anything going forward from 12 minutes against one team.

    You’re right. Merry Christmas Eve!

  346. message to DSJ?

    “Everything is based on performance,” said Thibodeau, who eventually turned to Ntilikina in the closing minutes Wednesday night. “You have to make tough decisions, and we have. But I never write anyone off, so long as they continue to work, and when their opportunity comes, just be ready.”

  347. One good game and Alec Burks (who is a 29 year old backup scrub) should have been signed to a multi year deal.

    4-5 minutes of play, 2 missed shots and 1 steal and Frank still sucks.

    Knox probably does still suck, but he’s showing some flashes of improvement and is still a kid. Let’s give him 20-30 games.

    The same people that said RJ was a terrible pick are suddenly finding some love after one very good game even though the kid showed plenty of talent and skill in college AND last year but played in the worst circumstances in human history for his skill set.

    Robinson can literally do nothing on a basketball court except dunk and block shots and even there he can be neutralized by any really good team that bothers to try to stop him or get him off the court, but he’s a star. smh

    Our problem is more than a lack of talent and the obvious problem at PG. It’s still team construction. We have players on this team that are better than they look, but they aren’t necessarily good with each other. Hopefully, Quickley helps a little there, but asking a rookie to be the savior is a bit much to ask. We should be hoping he shoots well when teams start focusing on him and can still run the point well enough to get Payton on the bench. That would be progress. Other than that, 1 game doesn’t mean much.

    At least Zach Lowe understands basketball.

Comments are closed.