Post Game: Grizzlies beat Knicks, 96-84

Didn’t get to watch, gonna scope the replay later.

the Mavs picks, which let’s be honest, how good will the Mavs be? Even after the trade, do the look better than Sacto even? They are still going to be bottom dwellers in a stacked West, even with Doncic improving.

I can’t get the trade machine to work today, and I don’t know who’s holding other people’s picks, but I think this is probably as good a return as it gets. Who else is in the position where future picks might be worth something, has a young player to send back, and has expirings? Maybe Atlanta parts with Collins, but I kinda of doubt it. There’s nobody else in the east with a young player to send back who’s picks might be good. Maybe Memphis parts with JJJ but I think they want to hold onto picks. The other options are already playoff bound, the picks would be pretty bad. This might have been the best deal out there.

Watching the Boston v OKC game now. I’d take Kyrie on the Knicks- warts, flat earth conspiracy, and all. He would be by far the best point guard on the Knicks since maybe Clyde. He definitely comes with risks but it would be fun to watch great point guard play at the Garden for once. I do think he passes the ball some and makes plays for the other guys. Clutch when it counts too, you need a guy like that on your squad to win the close games down the stretch.

I’d also take Rubio as a consolation, always liked his game which has really blossomed in Utah.

Terry Rozier reminds me a little of Toney Douglas……if Toney Douglas could actually play.

the Mavs picks, which let’s be honest, how good will the Mavs be? Even after the trade, do the look better than Sacto even? They are still going to be bottom dwellers in a stacked West, even with Doncic improving.

Completely depends on Porzingis’ return. Doncic is for real, for real. His 3.9 BPM ranks 14th of 39 of players who have played >1500 minutes. For reference, Kevin Durant is sitting at 4.4.

An update– here is the list of rookies who put up 3.5 BPM in >1500, similar to a list I posted a month ago.

Jordan
Robinson
Paul
Sabonis
Magic
Duncan
Webber
Bird
Jokic
Simmons
Kawhi
Doncic
Penny
AK47
Shaq
Pierce
Bowie

Decent company, no? And Doncic is the only teenager of the bunch.

The guy is going to be a 6’7″ James Harden in a couple years. It is entirely upon the Mavs to give him the #2 and #3 stars to get deep in the playoffs, but there is a zero-percent chance they are a lottery team if they manage to simply put a few average players around him. He’s going to transform that franchise to instant contender like LeBron did the Cavs and Durant did the Sonics/Thunder.

Would people take Deandre Jordan and Wes over THJr & KP? If so, we may end up with a lottery pick next year.

Porzingis and Doncic theoretically sounds great, but Porzingis’ health and ridiculous contract is going to put a cap on how good Dallas can be long term. I don’t believe that Kristaps Porzingis’ body is going to stay healthy long term. Having Doncic is going to make it that much easier for him, but at the end of the day they’re going to need him to be twice as healthy and twice as productive as he’s been so far for that deal to work out.

The Mavs made a terrible mistake.

The Mavs made a terrible mistake.

And this is probably the only Knicks website on earth where you can write this, be correct, and have a good number of posters back you up on it. God bless the KB.

Jesus Rodriguez:

Per source #Knicks came close to trading Lee and Frank to #Magic before agreeing to send include Lee in the KP deal. Frank is still being shopped.

Ross was the name part of those talks. The injury to Frank and the KP concerns had Knicks and Magic move in a different direction for now.

yeah, the mavs definitely do need to get this right, if not – that’s a whole lot of “dead” salary dragging them down…throughout their roster…

with their current assets it’ll be difficult for them to have much more than a single first round pick in the next four years…

Cuban made this trade with his heart, not his head. Like the guy who marries his second wife because she reminds him of his first. It will be “cool” to have the next Dirk and they’ll sell a lot of tickets but the good times won’t last long. KP is already injury prone at age 23 and he’s 7’3”. The odds are not in his/their favor. I don’t think we could have gotten a better offer. Perry was right to jump on this deal.

The biggest thing for Dallas would be to somehow hit the top five this year, as it would push back the pick to the Knicks until 2022 at the earliest. I imagine that they’ll be tanking like crazy.

Maybe this is a good day to play the “Which franchise would you trade places with right now?

I would say Warriors, Bucks, Nuggets, maybe Celtics.

Kind of interesting to think about, a few weeks ago that list would have been way longer.

Trading Frank for two seconds would be a smaller scale version of the KP trade in that it would be widely panned but prooooobably represent value gained

@21 we have lots of cap space and some extra draft picks, but we don’t have a single sure-fire star. I’d take Philly for sure, and I’d probably take Phoenix (I like Booker more than most) and oddly, I’d strongly consider Sacramento. Indiana is a tough call. Utah is interesting.

But in terms of a tabula rasa for a GM, the Knicks is where it’s at.

@26
So, someone finally answered the question I’ve asked a couple of times. In a DSJ and Mudiay backcourt, who eats the vaseline?

I really hope the Knicks dump Mudiay and move Frank to the wing. Show some patience!

@26

He really does remind me of Marbury… so athletic but he does not understand the game at a high level. At least he is willing to pass and the athletic skills are undeniable, but both statements were true speaking of Marbury as well.

Now that he’s on board, let the kid play. If he ever learns to get to the line a lot and develops a bit of court vision there’s a chance he’s a plus player, it’s not impossible.

Now, Matthews, as I’ve been saying, is a tank commander. I think people who thought he could be a problem for the tank really didn’t watch much of him this season, he’s done athletically and he plays like he’s desperate for a new deal next season. His shooting numbers aren’t overall terrible but his impact is very low, kinda like a new version of Courtney Lee.

Wes is washed, true. SJ, however, still looks great and might actually be better than he was because he’s not as vulnerable to Hack-a-Jordan. He’d be an outstanding 4th piece at something like 3 years/$40 mill.

@31

I think he has dropped off a lot on defense, specially in terms of effort, I watched some Dallas games where he looked like he didn’t even care to stop people driving to the rim, his blocks have been very underwhelming for the last 3 seasons. But yes, he’s still a wonderfully productive finisher inside and rebounder, those guys will always bring some positive value to the team.

@14 My sentiments exactly. We “loved” KP because he showed legitimate talent and we’ve been starved for it. So far, he’s been a fringe all-star at best, when healthy. While it feels awful, if we can sign a true top-10 player and another all-star, with our cap space, it’s a real improvement. Add a couple of picks or maybe flip 2 firsts to move up in a draft, and it becomes icing. We got picks and cap space for a fringe all-star that is a real injury risk.

you don’t need to be a rocket scientist or be incredibly smart to be a good player in this league… if you’re getting to the basket and converting that’s almost enough to provide plus value on the court by itself…..

smith can already do that as we see saw today…. yes there’s warts in his game…. but he is incredibly close to putting it all together…. the turnovers will almost certainly come down…. and then he’s a ftr spike and/or better shooting to really catapult him into a viable starter….

dangelo russell’s career trajectory is a good analog… dogged by high turnovers and poor shooting early in his career.. and then the turnovers very gradually came down… the shooting very gradually improved… and with a spike in his assist numbers he is now an actual all star….

i was very excited for nabbing smith… it’s not very often we get a decent prospect in a trade and he might turn out to be the best player in it…..

I don’t know about you guys, but I REALLY wanna see a DSJ/Ntilikina/Knox/Vonleh/DJ starting lineup for the rest of the season. Hopefully Matthews gets traded so that Dotson and Trier can continue to get playing time. If Sacto is willing to throw in a pick, we should make that Kanter for ZBo trade right now.

Question about DJ. What would it take to re-sign him? He’s an excellent fit on this roster.

What’s our Bird rights situation with DJ? And would people rather use the room exception on him or Vonleh if we achieve the impossible KD/Kyrie dream?

Totes, I’m also very down for DSJ/Frank/Knox/Vonleh/DJ, though Kornet or Mitch would also be fine at the 5.

Why in the world would we want to re-sign Jordan to a contract when we have Mitch whose stats are way ahead of DJ at this stage of their careers? Speaking of Mitch, his being out sick for yesterday’s game is very worrisome. Is he about to be traded (Pels maybe and FO fretted another ankle injury? I hope they don’t trade Mitch. I said I’d rather they include KP in a Davis deal instead of Mitch.

I hope we keep Mitch and Kornet. They give us a lot of flexibility. Mitch is PnR while Kornet is PnPop and both space the floor in different ways.

looks like I got cut off –
the rest of the post was that there were only a few teams that could’ve potentially matched this haul, with Brooklyn being pretty unrealistic just given the geographical rivalry. Dallas was the perfect trade partner — a team with Luka/Dirk that could reasonably believe that KP would definitely re-sign, thereby increasing his value to them (he’d probably re-sign anywhere but then might agitate his way out of town after getting his $) and an owner that wants to be big-time but has struck out on FA after FA.

Re: Dallas – I highly doubt they are going to tank from here out. Maxi Kleber is a really good player and can hold down the 5 position for them, they played better without DSJ than with DSJ this year, and Courtney Lee and even Timmy will contribute to winning there. They also have to sell KP to some extent, and going from one tanking situation to another is probably not what he and Janis want to see.

From the Knicks’ perspective (as long as Dallas doesn’t jump us this year), it wouldn’t be so terrible if Dallas gave their pick to Atlanta next year instead of this year. 2022 is supposed to be that double draft with high schoolers allowed again, and might be a better year to have an extra unprotected pick both from a drafting perspective but also an asset perspective.

I imagine they will re-sign him to a long-term deal using EB rights after they do all their other FA work this summer.

Problem is he’s a RFA and some team might swoop in and make him an offer right away. That could be a problem if Davis is still available and Pels put Knicks and Lakers in a bidding war.

(I guess the question is whether Mitch will be around if we sign KD/Kyrie – can’t imagine that those guys want to wait for Mitch to develop)

I mean Mitch by every stat is already very productive. His role is limited and well-defined so I don’t think that would be much of an issue. If it is, use the room exception to bring in a vet center for a year.

BTW speaking of centers, Knicks should have kept Noah (even lit) and we might have been able to include him in that Mav’s deal. Throw in Lance and I think the #’s work.

One last item on centers: I think Kings should be interested in Jordan. They could test drive him for the rest of the year and if it’s a fit re-sign him for 10m/yr. Maybe we net a 2nd round pick and ensure that our regular deposits to the tank bank continue.

It’s funny that we originally viewed Kornet as a poor man’s KP substitute who gave a glimpse of what the offense could look like when Porzingis returned. But he seems to have some value beyond that.

Problem is he’s a RFA and some team might swoop in and make him an offer right away. That could be a problem if Davis is still available and Pels put Knicks and Lakers in a bidding war.

seems unlikely to me that anyone is swooping in for Kornet of all players — especially given he is restricted, I don’t imagine anyone will be tying up any significant cap space waiting on the Knicks to match or not- not with 40% of the league being FAs or something like that.

So question for the group – if we somehow win the lottery and are also somehow able to land Kyrie and KD in free agency, would anyone here trade Zion and pretty much everyone else for AD (which is the only way the $ would work)? I guess you can tell I would much rather keep Zion.

But what if we fall to, say, #4 in the draft. Would you guys trade whoever #4 is plus, say, Dallas’s unprotected 1st, + DSJ + Knox + Frank and whoever else to get AD? (I think I might say yes to that — I’m not really sold on Knox, DSJ will be superfluous and unhappy if we get Kyrie, and losing Frank is not that big a deal)

And I agree that I am not even slightly concerned about a team swooping in on Luke Kornet. Maaaybe if he was a UFA, but not as an RFA.

Yeah, I’m on the same wavelength in that I think (hope?) that this is all just a bluff to see if someone will trade picks for Matthews or Jordan before Thursday. If not, I would have to imagine that both of them will be bought out. But because of that, I would also have to imagine that the other NBA teams think the same thing and thus, no one will part with picks for them.

True, the Kings would be the one team I could see maaaaybe doing it. The other ones, though, would all be confident that they could get Matthews and Jordan to pick them once they became free agents. Like if you’re Houston, no way do you trade anything for these guys.

And I agree that I am not even slightly concerned about a team swooping in on Luke Kornet. Maaaybe if he was a UFA, but not as an RFA.

You don’t think some team would place a 6m offer sheet in front of him? Any team in the league that has cap or their MLE could do that. And if 2 of Kyrie/KD/Kawhi haven’t committed to the Knicks and are making the Melo tour matching Luke would take away the needed cap space. I suppose you could tell Kornet not to sign an offer sheet and we would give him up to X dollars using EB rights but he might be too smart to trust this FO.

Just about everybody here was OK cutting Kornet to make room for Trier. The consensus here was he was a scrub. How many centers are there who hit 3’s at above 40%? But that’s not it – he shoots it fast so it’s tough to give him space and then close out on him like Wade did to Novak in the playoffs. It’s the modern NBA.

It’s tough to say what will happen with Kornet until the sample size gets bigger. I love the way he’s looked so far but you can’t discern much from a guy hitting 40/94 3PA. As of now I doubt we’d have much of an issue with him in RFA but if he gets to 1000+ minutes and is still looking like Novak it’s possible that becomes a headache. It’s still worth playing him though because we need to find out just as much as everyone else whether or not he’s an asset worth keeping/pursuing.

Reading some tea leaves and maybe a little wishcasting here but maybe something is up with NO….

By league rules, Smith, Matthews and Jordan CANNOT be traded in combination with another player til after the deadline (2 months). Kanter, for some odd reason is still on the roster (why after acting like such a dick recently and glued to the bench). Robinson was ill yesterday. two trades:

DSJr for Darius Miller

Kanter (for cap purposes)
Frank
Knox
MR
choice of 2 picks: NY 2019 top 1 protected , NY 2020 or 21 , either of 2 Mav’s picks

And I could buy the team’s interest in having Jordan mentor Mitch as more than a smokescreen. But I assume Wes and Kanter are gone after the deadline, one way or another.

I do agree that the Mavs made a mistake (the risk is too high). That doesn’t mean they’re going to be bad, though.

Porzingis on a max here is different than Porzingis on a max there. Doncic (and to a lesser extent, Carlisle) makes all the difference.

Let’s start with what we all know: KP is a wingman, not the man. Here he would have been paid to be the man and that would have made it much more difficult to find the real man. But when healthy he has the potential to be an outstanding #2, especially with a coaching staff that presumably won’t tolerate his terrible shot selection.

In Dallas, they have a ridiculous value contract in Luka. So even if they max Porzingis, they’re still paying their two best players around $40mm. From a team building perspective, that’s an incredible advantage over the rest of the league. We’d have to pay KD and Kyrie $71mm, for instance.

Next year will be step 1 for them. They’ll roll out a top 4 of KP, Luka, Hardaway, Barnes. The latter two will limit their ceiling. But after next year, all they have to do is stretch Hardaway and then they will only have ~$46mm in salary committed to Luka, KP, and the Hardaway penalty. That’s also the year we have their pick, too, so if KP does stay healthy we’re probably getting shitty picks.

I do think Dallas made a mistake but the upside is very high if KP stays healthy.

Matthews is definitely washed, but if you’re trading a single second rounder you could still do worse. Any team trading for him is basically asking him to stand in a corner for 10-15 minutes a night.

Thing is, we could trade Matthews only to a team with an expiring contract that pretty much matches his contract.

I don’t see many teams who really need Matthews right now and have that pre-requisite. Maybe Utah?

DSJr for Darius Miller
Kanter (for cap purposes)
Frank
Knox
MR
choice of 2 picks: NY 2019 top 1 protected , NY 2020 or 21 , either of 2 Mav’s picks

You might think – and perhaps rightly so – that I should be institutionalized but I wouldn’t trade Mitch and I think Frank will end up a better player than DSJ and Knox. I would offer NO: Lance, Knox, DSJ, 2019 pick unprotected, the two Mav’s 1st round picks, and a Charlotte 2nd round pick. If we have to add Frank, then you do it.

Mitch is a game changer. I wrote this a while ago but there’s never been a center in the history of the NBA as fast in general and as fast off his feet as Mitch. His shot blocking and vertical spacing are just too valuable.

Regarding Frank, his on/off for the year is now +1.8 (+2.0 last year). I’ve noticed a change in him the last few games. He’s stepped it up on defense and on offense he’s making a decision and acting on it without hesitation. That’s an important step for him. I think his 3FG% will go up. I’d much rather have Frank than DSJ or Knox if we land two stars. I would include him in a Pels deal if that’s what it took but I’d hold him out to the end.

DSJ is a lousy shooter off the dribble and a low IQ player with some personality issues. Is this the profile you want spearheading the offense in the future? Knox is more interesting. He’s young and didn’t start playing organized Bball until late. But he’s got a major awareness problem which manifests itself on both offense and defense. How is a former QB so damn dime deficient?

So here’s what my target would be for next year:
Frank/Mitch/Kornet/Trier/Dotson/Room Exception and 2 of KD/AD/Kyrie/Kawhi

veteran 3 and some D guy who has an expiring contract definitely has value around the league. Philly, Minnesota, Sacramento, etc would be reasonable destinations.

DAJ may even have value — if he’s bought out he’s definitely going to Houston, so wouldn’t a team like, say, the Clippers benefit from trading Teodosic and Gortat for him? I’m not sure whether DAJ is persona non grata there, but it’s not a bad fit.

Maybe Sac wants DAJ for Koufos + Zach Randolph. They have a ton of 2nd round picks, surely 1 of them could be sent this direction?

If we could get AD without sending them Mitch you just have to do that.

Sadly, I don’t think Knox + Frank + Kanter + Trier + unprotected Dallas pick + 2019 Knicks 1st does the trick.

I think that does the trick if the pick is Zion, so that’s why the Knicks have to wait until the offseason (and technically until after Zion signs his contract, for cap purposes). But yes, otherwise, I don’t think New Orleans cares about just a lottery pick in 2019. Otherwise, they want somewhat proven young players.

And then, of course, there’s the whole “Do you want to trade Zion for AD?”

I wouldn’t trade Zion for AD, but it is a purely emotional (we tanked this whole season, lost KP in the process, have no young huge prospect I really love — ok, probably Mitch — and I don’t want to give up MY generational prospect for your generational piece who seems unhappy and may still go to LA)

Ok, maybe not purely emotional, I wouldn’t want to take on AD and lose him and have absolutely nothing.

I know one thing for sure about Dallas, and it’s that they will be an excellent team in the month of November.

The thing about Porzingis is that it’s not only that he has to overcome a devastating knee injury, but he has to overcome poor shot selection, stamina, and rebounding issues. If you think Porzingis’s shot chart is going to turn into Luke Kornet’s shot chart overnight, you’re kidding yourself. I see a lot of jargon about how Porzingis and Doncic will make a deadly screen and roll/pop combination, but that would mean Porzingis would have to set an actual screen and/or go to the Amar’e Stoudemire school of slipping screens.

Doncic should make KP’s life much easier on offense, and Porzingis should cover a lot of Doncic’s defensive mistakes. The combination, in theory, has the potential to be the best one two punch in basketball. This could end up being a situation where Porzingis (with the medical staff, Doncic, and Carlisle) ends up reaching his sky high potential and doubles his availability and production, but it could also be a situation where Porzingis never plays more than 60 games in a season and uses the latter 30 games to depress his on court value. Doncic is so good that he should elevate them to being a contender so long as KP is healthy, but a 7’3” skinny guy with a reconstructed ACL isn’t a great bet to stay healthy.

. Porzingis has had average stats, and hasn’t shown anything great so far, even though he has the ‘upside.’

when he was 22 he led the NBA in blk% and hit almost 40% of the 3 point shots he took. Our elite player development system couldn’t keep him healthy or coach him out of his bad shot selection.

The Kings have 3 second round picks each in 2020 and 2021. It makes sense for them to give up one or two of them in a DeAndre for Z-Bo + Koufos trade.

Yeah, I fucking LOVE Mitch, but come on, if they could get AD without trading Zion but with trading Mitch (like if the 2019 pick is not Zion), you gotta do it.

Considering that AD is the 0.001% outcome for Mitch, yeah, you’d have to be insane not to include him in an AD trade.

Considering that AD is the 0.001% outcome for Mitch, yeah, you’d have to be insane not to include him in an AD trade.

Well, the question is – would you do that trade if AD didn’t agree to an extension?

FWIW we’ve talked about KD, Kyrie, and AD a bit in this thread, but it’s mathematically impossible unless Kyrie and Durant want to take very large pay cuts.

AD = $27,093,019
KD = $38,150,000
Kyrie = $32,700,00
Noah’s dead money = $6,431,667

That’s $104,374,686 before empty roster penalties.

In the remote possibility that we’ll get Zion I’m not trading him, even for AD.

– He’s 7 years younger than AD (and AD is injury prone, never played more than 75 games in a season)

– He could work as a third banana with 2 max guys for the next 2 years then become the first option, allowing you to reload with FA around him when his rookie extension starts (after year 4).

– I’m barely surviving this shame of a season, all in the hope of getting him… 🙂

when he was 22 he led the NBA in blk% and hit almost 40% of the 3 point shots he took.

Yeah, but let’s be real here, these are his percentages from inside the 3 point line:

3 to 10 feet .381
10 to 16 feet .430
16 to 3 point line .422

I mean, his mid range game basically sucks. I agree that Knicks fans are going a little overboard trashing the guy, but he really hasn’t been that great an NBA player and he’s always hurt.

The thing about Porzingis is that it’s not only that he has to overcome a devastating knee injury, but he has to overcome poor shot selection, stamina, and rebounding issues.

He doesn’t have to be that good for Dallas’ picks to be outside the lottery. Luka will be in his third year by then and he will probably be able to carry a team to the playoffs by himself at that point. He almost did it this year.

If you think Porzingis’s shot chart is going to turn into Luke Kornet’s shot chart overnight, you’re kidding yourself.

I believe in coaching and in the influence of other players. Even Carmelo Anthony had a great shot chart when Jason Kidd was on the floor with him. It might not be overnight, but I’ll be shocked if by the end of next year Porzingis’ shot chart looks anything like it was here.

Oh, yeah, they’d totally have to take paycuts, but come on, if you had AD in place and were looking to add those guys, it would be hard to imagine that they wouldn’t be willing to do so.

Isn’t the whole point of KD going to NYC his desire to build his legacy? How would he do that with AD and Kyrie?

Oh, yeah, they’d totally have to take paycuts, but come on, if you had AD in place and were looking to add those guys, it would be hard to imagine that they wouldn’t be willing to do so. We’re not talking about taking $5 million less, we’re talking more like $1-2 million each.

Let’s say you managed to keep Mitch and strip the whole roster.

AD + KD + Kyrie + Mitch + Lance’s $1mm buyout + Noah’s stretch money + 8 empty roster penalties = $114mm

That’s $5mm over the cap so you’re asking them to take $2.5mm less in year one, and that compounds over the life of the contract since all the raises are based of year 1. It’s probably a considerable cut over the life of the contract AND you have to pick up 8 players with just the room exception and vet minimums.

If you want to keep low priced guys like Trier, Kornet, and Dotson, they have to take an additional $2.5 million in pay cuts in their first year.

I’m all for big dreams, but I don’t think the math works on this one. I can’t see Durant leaving a super team to take less money for another potential super team. Maybe you get Kyrie to do a one-and-one at a discount this year and max him out later, but now you’re getting into Joe Smith/Minnesota territory.

Most likely our dreams should be capped at two of these guys. I think that’s a better team-building strategy anyway.

I was one of the first to jump aboard the KP train pre-draft, and I really wanted him to be THE GUY for us. My problem with KP since then is that he revealed himself to be a me-first guy a la Melo pretty much from day 1. The concept of “making your teammates better” or “modifying your game to meet the needs of the team” never seemed to have occurred to him. He clearly wants to be more like the athletically freakish ball-skill players (Durant, Giannis, and less so, Davis; even Melo is a candidate for this group and seems to have heavily influenced KP) and less like the “find my niche and dominate within that niche by playing intelligently within myself for the betterment of the team” (Duncan, Jokic, Dirk.) He thinks he has (or can develop) guard skills when it is clear that he can’t. I rarely have seen him make the great, intuitive pass, or even look very interested in passing, or restricting himself to efficient shots. Maybe a more established and respected coach like Carlisle and a gifted facilitator like Doncic will foster change in him, and if he can stay healthy, he’s potentially a top-10 level player. But he absolutely has to change his game and his attitude, and would not have done so in a Knicks uniform. So fuck him.

I think his durability issues are overstated…he played over 2000 minutes as a 20 and a 21 yo and missed 10 and 16 games respectively during his first 2 years, not a crazy-high total. He was on his way to playing more as a 22yo until his knee blew out, and played through minor injury quite a bit. The most fragile parts of him seemed to be his ego and his stamina over the course of a long season. I think my points above about him wanting to shoehorn himself into a player that he isn’t suited to be contributes to his injury and stamina issues.

It seems Pelicans fans are interested in what the Knicks have to offer. Some aren’t too thrilled with the games the Lakers are playing and seem to prefer a package of DSJ, Knox, Mitchell Robinson, top 3 2019 pick, and a future 1st.

I mean, I’m no fan of gendered/sexist insults, but isn’t that what Hornacek was getting at?

Can you remind me what this is referencing? I’ve forgotten.

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt no one on the Knicks’ coaching staff ever told KP to take better shots

KP, Melo, JR, Knox, Mudiay… yeah I think it’s fair to assume we don’t focus on optimizing shot selection here.

The sequence is:
(1) Sign Kyrie and sign KD
(2) Trade for AD

The sequence helps a little bit because of the 125% rule, but you still have to strip the roster to get enough salary to trade for AD and you still have to figure out why Durant would want to leave Golden State to play with two superstars.

It’s also hard to take only right shots if there’s nobody able to pass you the ball in the right spots.

You know, this sounds fartingly similar to the excuses Melo’s apologists raised everytime his crappy shot selection was mentioned as a knock against his game. If only Melo had the right type of point guard to get him ball in the right places on the court his efficiency would skyrocket and we’d see the benefit of devoting an entire offense around such a talented, high volume scorer. All the while the roster would turn, new coach after new coach would come promising to better utilize Melo’s talents, and the same low efficiency shots would continue.

This.

Yikes.

Also somewhat cringeworthy from that article:

Hornacek’s frustration with Porzingis was … a combination of his allegedly soft play on the court and what was deemed as immature behavior off of it.

That reportedly includes Porzingis consistently arriving at the training facility and consistently parking in the spots designated for management.

I’m starting to sweat if Dallas can tank and pick top 5. Right now, they have the 11th worst record, so the odds are under 10% . But, if they move to 8th, they have like a 25% chance, and 6th would be 37%.

Getting a pick in 2021, the year when the draft will have college freshmen and the first class of straight from HS players, might be better than having one in 2020.

Getting a pick in 2021, the year when the draft will have college freshmen and the first class of straight from HS players, might be better than having one in 2020.

It’d be 2022 vs. 2021 (instead of 2021 vs. 2020), but yes, otherwise, you could definitely be right.

If the AD trade is DSJ/Frank/Knox/lots of picks, we end up with:

But it can’t be. Once we sign KD & Kyrie we’re out of cap room and we can’t trade $12mm in salary for $27.5mm. We’d have to put together $22mm in player salary to make the trade work. That’s DS + Frank + Knox + Trier + the player we select in the draft + possibly more depending on what slot we draft.

But it can’t be. Once we sign KD & Kyrie we’re out of cap room and we can’t trade $12mm in salary for $27.5mm. We’d have to put together $22mm in player salary to make the trade work. That’s DS + Frank + Knox + Trier + the player we select in the draft + possibly more depending on what slot we draft.

Frank, DSJR, Knox and the pick would get the deal done (they’d have to wait for the pick to sign, of course, so it couldn’t become official until August), salary-wise.

Wait, I’m not saying that KP is a victim of something else. I just have, for intellectual honesty’s sake, to concede that maybe having a better point guard or a better system than the Triangle could have helped him.

No doubt, Farfa. I am not singling you out or anything. I’m just realizing the similarities between a lot of the discourse surrounding KP’s and Melo’s shot selection. I think both really signal how fans tend to fall in love with what a player can be while ignoring who they have shown themselves to be. And while Rick Carlisle might be a HOF coach, he’s not a miracle worker either. There was this idea that he was going to develop DSJ’s many athletic gifts into an NBA starting caliber point guard capable of playing the position as a high IQ level. Now there’s this idea that he is going scheme and coach KP into a type player he hasn’t shown himself to be 3+ NBA seasons.

Then Harvey, after years of sulking, pouting and pitching like garbage, left the Mets and immediately raised his K rate and lowered his FIP by a run and a half.

Yes, but nowhere near his pre-injury level, which is the point. Unless you think a 4.33 FIP and a 7.8 SO/9 rate is worthwhile…

(It’s not, both are below the league average)

@124
Isn’t Harvey also rumored to have some drug and/or alcohol issues? IIRC Harvey had two really bad injuries/surgeries, not just one.

Also, Harvey actually dated hot models, not just awkwardly hitting on them on social media!
🙂

Fascinating that Strat now thinks Porzingis is a fantastic evaluator of front office ability. I could swear I recall him denying this being the case when Porzingis was equally unhappy with a different management team. I wonder what changed?

Isn’t Harvey also rumored to have some drug and/or alcohol issues?

He was a partier, like to go out and get smashed out on the town. But it wasn’t like this stopped him from being a total beast before blowing out his right elbow.

IIRC Harvey had two really bad injuries/surgeries, not just one.

Yes, he had that issue with thoracic outlet syndrome after recovering from Tommy John surgery, which he originally complained the Mets management kept him too long in recovering from (sound familiar to you?).

Also, Harvey actually dated hot models, not just awkwardly hitting on them on social media!
🙂

Oh yeah, that dude fucked a lot.

I’m starting at the bottom of the thread…….are you guys talking about Harvey Korman?

Part of me actually appreciates it. I don’t get the feeling he’ll be rolling up and parking in Mark Cuban’s spot any time soon.

That’s part of the problem, IMO. We give these antics a free pass because the respective organizations involved are such a mess at the top we assume the player they are feuding with is right by default. But I am not convinced that Dolan, Mills and Phil being problematic automatically means that the particular player they are taking issue with is being reasonable. Much of the sports media and the Knicks media often took this stance during the Melodrama with Phil, absolving the former because of the latter’s clueless attitude and off-putting arrogance. But it could just be that all parties involved are all assholes in their own way. This is often the case in dysfunctional organizations, by the way, since dysfunction from the top permeates every level of a operational culture.

I’m definitely going to root for the Dallas Mavericks (except for in 2021 where I want them to tank and 2023 where I want them to pick 11th) despite the falling out with KP. Doncic and KP were the two guys I wanted together in New York (Frank, Doncic, and Porzingis made so much sense together), but now I can root for them irrationally on somebody else’s books.

I definitely think the odds are against Porzingis here, though. He tore his ACL and wasn’t even that good or durable before that happened. He’s also anemic and about to be overpaid. Doncic and Porzingis will likely fall somewhere between Embiid/Simmons and Booker/Ayton, and there’s a lot of real estate between title contention and tank contention. What makes Embiid/Simmons so much better is likely a combination of coaching, teammates, and the fact that Embiid and Simmons are great basketball players.

Ayton/Booker, Towns/Wiggins, Embiid/Simmons, and now Doncic/Porzingis. I guess what I’m trying to get at is all of PHX, MIN, PHI, and DAL have young tandems but you begin to see early how overpaying guys can get you in trouble. Doncic is probably the best prospect of the group (because he’s not a better player than either Simmons or Towns today), but simply having a guy like that doesn’t guarantee success. The Mavericks need to be right about Porzingis or somebody will get fired.

@140 I remember KP’s shooting numbers being inefficient in last year’s Eurobasket tournament. When I checked he had a TS% around like .516 for the tournament. I could be wrong, but I think the only time we’ve ever seen Super KP was in November of 2016 and 2017.

EDIT: KP had a TS% over 65% in Eurobasket. I stand corrected. He was great in that tournament.

If New Orleans is willing to trade Davis to us, sign Kyrie and pass on giving 35% of the salary cap to Durant. That’s two 26 year old superstars and with a ton of young kids backing them up who can be developed or packaged with picks for better pieces. That strikes me as more likely to succeed.

I’d rather have Kyrie, KP, and Mitch than just Kyrie and AD. Would any of you include Jaren or Ayton in a deal for AD if you were the Grizz or Phoenix? If you wouldn’t but are willing to include Mitch, it’s because he’s a 2nd round pick.

On the Dallas side, I think Doncic will make KP way, way better.
KP has never played with a great guard.
Doncic will put KP in all the right situations. KP won’t have to create his own shot, likely will get a lot of oops and dishes in the paint, and still take his threes.
But KP won’t need to handle the ball as much as they Knicks made him. He’ll have a guy giving it to him in all the right places.
I think time will show that this pairing will be very good to great.

But I still think the Knicks made a smart move.

hopefully at this time on friday – kanter, mud, and lance are no longer on our roster…

for myself, finally moving on from lance will be a sure sign the worm has turned for the knicks…

So we’re left with Mitch, Trier, Kornet, Dotson, and maybe Vonleh on the room, plus an assortment of veteran minimums. We have no flexibility to make trades because we can’t put together salary. All we have is the mid-level exception every year and our draft picks. I just don’t think you can build a team like that.

That’s exactly what Miami did and they went to, what, four straight NBA Finals? We’re talking the Eastern Conference here. That team is a beast. Although I think you probably pass on Vonleh for the room at that point and use the room on a guard. Maybe TJ McConnell?

I mean, holy shit, “Yeah, they have Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis, but who else do they have?” Come on!

The Mudiay thing is the most low-key intriguing one: do they keep him only to let him expire? Do they try to flip him for a second?

I think it’s safe to say that they’re not gonna extend him now. Even if I never liked the basketball player, what happened to him is the equivalent of getting your fiancee stolen by someone slightly more attractive than you at the last moment possible. I feel a bit for him

Yeah, I do feel a bit for Mudiay Frank, especially since he can’t even show off since he’s injured.

How about that tweet from Courtney’s burner account that Knicks were about to trade Frank and Courtney for Ross? Man the FO were desperate to shed salary. Strat would have fainted if Cuban hadn’t rescued us and that trade had gone through.

I wonder how much money DeAndre Jordan would be willing to lose if Kyrie and KD want to come here. He’s made over $100M in his career but hasn’t won a championship as yet. Maybe we could get Kyrie Irving to take a small discount this year on something like a 3 year deal with a player option on the 3rd year (so he can opt out and get the max salary after 10 years of service in 2021), and then offer the rest of that money to DeAndre Jordan. Maybe if instead of 38 and 28, Irving and Durant start at $35M and $25M, and we trade Ntilikina for a pair of 2nd round picks to clear up some cap room for DJ.

If we could somehow get Irving, Durant, and Jordan on the team this summer, that should give us the best chance of any team to win a championship. I’ll take Irving, Stephen A Smith, Durant, Zion, and DeAndre Jordan against any team’s starting five.

Also, Harvey actually dated hot models, not just awkwardly hitting on them on social media!
🙂

Oh yeah, that dude fucked a lot.

Not to rumor-monger, but I have it on very good authority (a friend who lived adjacent to KP’s apartment) that KP was no slouch in this department.

That’s exactly what Miami did and they went to, what, four straight NBA Finals? We’re talking the Eastern Conference here. That team is a beast. Although I think you probably pass on Vonleh for the room at that point and use the room on a guard. Maybe TJ McConnell?

I mean, holy shit, “Yeah, they have Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis, but who else do they have?” Come on!

Boston did sort of the same thing. Very few people expected Rondo to be a 4th star, and the rest of the team was an assortment of vet’s minimum to mid-level guys.

If you can sign any three of Kyrie, KD, AD and Kawhi without stripping all of your draft assets, you do it without blinking. If all of your fungible draft assets and rookie-scale guys are the price, then maybe you hesitate.

I think everyone in NY has a friend who partied with Matt Harvey.

I watched the Eurobasket game between Latvia and Slovenia. It was amazing and Porzingis had an efficient 30+. Anyone who watched that game (and the semis and finals) knew it was utter insanity Doncic wasn’t at worst the second pick in the draft.

If we could somehow get Irving, Durant, and Jordan on the team this summer, that should give us the best chance of any team to win a championship. I’ll take Irving, Stephen A Smith, Durant, Zion, and DeAndre Jordan against any team’s starting five.

So in your super optimistic free agent scenario we also win the lottery? Not a realistic way to plan a team.

Even if we finish with the worst record we have a 52% chance at picking #5, meaning our odds are higher to pick there than #1-4 combined. And we’re fairly likely to not finish with the worst record. Any smart team planning will be done with the idea we’re picking 5th or 6th, and anything better is a lucky fluke. We should be planning with the idea that Romeo Langford or whoever your non-Zion/Ja/Barett choice is becomes a future Knick. Anything else is just wishful thinking until May 14th.

We’re probably significantly more likely to get KD than Zion at this point. If there’s any kind of under the table agreement then we’re MUCH MUCH more likely to get KD. And for those thinking trading up, consider how many of us wouldn’t trade Zion for AD. That means all of the AD offers should be comparable to what it would take to trade up for Zion (2019 #1, Mitch, both Mavs picks, Knox…).

And would whoever the lucky team is even do that? Star power counts for a lot in the NBA, both for winning and for revenues. Not sure why someone would trade essentially 9 cost-controlled years of Zion for much of anything. I don’t think I would do it for AD on a one-year deal or a super-max.

There’s a Porzingis presser in Dallas right now. Rick Carlisle is kissing Janis Porzingis’ ass.

Not to rumor-monger, but I have it on very good authority (a friend who lived adjacent to KP’s apartment) that KP was no slouch in this department.

As his agent, do you think Janis got 10% of that ass? or is that weird cuz they’re brothers?

Lakers apparently upped their offer to Ball, Kuzma, Ingram, Rondo, Lance, and two firsts while also taking Solomon Hill’s contract. Still not a lot of potential star power coming back to NO.

Funny that Milwaukee is on the list. Can they beat our offer? I think if N.O. wants a proper rebuild, a Knicks trade makes the most sense. If they just want the best players, it’s Clips/Bucks.

Ball, Kuzma, Ingram, Rondo, Lance, and two firsts

I know the firsts won’t be worth much as long as LeBron lives and breathes, but my god that’s a lot for one player about to make $46M AAV.

while also taking Solomon Hill’s contract

That adds no value to the offer. I doubt New Orleans thinks they’re players for Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving. They’ll have to spend to the floor next year anyway.

It’s basically Ball, Kuzma, Ingram, and two firsts.

A side by side of that vs a similar offer from us:

Ball v Smith
Ingram v our 2019 pick (Zion protected)
Kuzma v Trier
Rondo & Lance v Kanter (salary filler v salary filler)
Two firsts from an LA team with LeBron and AD v two firsts from a Dallas team with Doncic and KP

Line by line, I think the first two are even. Kuzma is better than Trier. Dallas’ firsts are better than LA’s.

But we have the advantage of not being the team that New Orleans believes tampered with their star. So in an offer that close, I think we win.

If true and not just an attempt to get Lakers to up their offer, it’s Brow stating he’s willing to join:
> LBJ in LA
> Giannis in Milwaukee
> Kawhi in Clipperville
> Kyrie in NYC

SGA, Harrell and Harris would be a terrific offer if Pels don’t want to rebuild but Harris is gonna be a UFA this summer and he might not commit to NO.

Milwaukee doesn’t have anything to trade.

Lakers offer is impressive until you realize that Ingram and Kuzma are not very good and Lonzo is no sure thing.

If Knicks include Mitch, Knox, and unprotected 2019 1st as part of any deal (other picks and players would be included), I think Pels would take that offer. Why is Woj saying that Knicks don’t have enough to make a deal now that they’ve traded KP? Guy should just do what he does best which is answer his phone and shut up otherwise.

geo, thanks for the tankathon link. I knew the odds had been flattened, knew that our chance at #1 was only 14%, but … I don’t think I fully appreciated we have a 48% chance of picking 5th. That’s appalling.

i know right…it’s crazy, for months i’ve read folks here speaking about the lottery odds – but, it wasn’t until i looked at that graph that reality came and smacked me upside the head…ugh, wake me up on may the 15th…

May 14 — NBA Draft Lottery 2019 (Chicago)
June 20 — NBA Draft 2019

Ball v Smith
Ingram v our 2019 pick (Zion protected)
Kuzma v Trier
Rondo & Lance v Kanter (salary filler v salary filler)
Two firsts from an LA team with LeBron and AD v two firsts from a Dallas team with Doncic and KP

I think our 2019 pick is much more valuable than Ingram. Ingram’s about to go into the last year of his deal and then probably get overpaid. Our 2019 pick, even Zion protected, is hugely valuable to me. The only risk is if we do win the lottery, in which case our pick probably wouldn’t be in the lottery at all in 2020 (with AD and Kyrie or whoever).

I’d take Ball over Smith, but still think our offer is better. We’d prefer to wait til the offseason though, so we can get the two max FAs.

I don’t think any of the players on the Lakers are worth accepting as a return for a legit superstar (funny that Nance and Randle were the only decent players last year, given away for practically nothing) but it’s still a lot of bodies to give up for Davis. Kuzma, Ingram and Ball have played about 40% of the team’s minutes this year. You have to replace about 3,000 minutes if you give all three up for Davis.

We’ve been talking about those odds all season!

you underestimate… the transience of knowledge… in geoland… everything is ephemeral… and that’s how he likes it…

I don’t think any of the players on the Lakers are worth accepting as a return for a legit superstar (funny that Nance and Randle were the only decent players last year, given away for practically nothing) but it’s still a lot of bodies to give up for Davis. Kuzma, Ingram and Ball have played about 40% of the team’s minutes this year. You have to replace about 3,000 minutes if you give all three up for Davis.

But they still have a max slot even with AD, so AD and the free agent would replace most of that. You can find some other role players with something like LeBron, Kawhi, and AD.

you underestimate… the transience of knowledge… in geoland… everything is ephemeral… and that’s how he likes it…

a had a turkey sandwich for lunch…that was a good thing…

I really don’t know who the other teams will pick in the #2 slot, assuming that no one is dumb enough to pass on Zion at #1. I have to believe that about half of the lottery-bound teams would take Barrett at #2, making the #3 slot quite appealing to the Knicks with Morant sitting there ready to be a starting PG from day 1. Top-3 protections would be a requirement for me. I’d tell the opposing GM that there’s nothing that will budge me from that position.

Even if you end up with Barrett sitting there at #3, you could very well trade down to pick up more picks. People think he’s a #1 overall talent, which is stupid, but I’d be happy to exploit that line of thinking.

We have a lot of picks to make a run at Zion if we really want him. The Mavs were able to trade up a couple spots to get Luka by giving up one future first. Could we potential trade up from 5 to 1 by giving up a 2020 and 2021 1st? I would think that would be damn tempting to a rebuilding team, and may be worth it on our end if we really can get 2 actual max free agents.

You need the cap space for a superstar, though. If we cap out on 2 max free agents for years to come, are we going to be in the position to use those picks on something more than mid round flyers? I know selling out the future for the present has killed us over and over, but it seems like we are kind of already doing that if we are focusing on filling all our cap space next year on max level veterans. Might as well try to add a potential superstar on a rookie contract to that.

Michael Beasley made the same claim.

Jowles, what did you think of Beasley as a prospect at the time of that draft? Just curious.

Kevin, having first round picks and using them for mid first round prospects is completely different than trading those picks and not even having a shot at drafting anyone at all. Plenty of good players, sometimes stars, are available in the mid first round, early second round, etc.

Jowles, what did you think of Beasley as a prospect at the time of that draft? Just curious.

I thought he was one of the best prospects ever seen in the NCAA, even with the limited advanced stats we had at the time. I think any other opinion would have been laughed at, and with good reason. Same response if you told me Steph Curry would put up the best offensive seasons in the 3PT era and win multiple MVPs.

I also wanted DeAndre Jordan to be a Knick, so I wasn’t a complete fool.

Beasley was fucking amazing at Kansas State. I’m still not sure what happened with him.

I’d much rather have the 5th pick than the 6th. We don’t know who will be available. We were 1 pick away from Steph Curry. That stuff matters.

I’d much rather have the 5th pick than the 6th. We don’t know who will be available. We were 1 pick away from Steph Curry. That stuff matters.

Statistically 5th is only slightly better than 6th. I’d of course rather have 5th than 6th too, but the difference is marginal. Check this out:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-is-winning-the-nba-draft-lottery-really-worth/

The difference in production between the first and second pick is larger than the difference between #3 and #10. In most drafts there are 1-2 fairly surefire stars, and then typically after that it’s a bit more random.

That’s the reasoning we used to help us sleep at night missing out on KAT after TH2 went supernova in the last week of the season.

No, it’s not. In fact it’s the opposite: my entire point is we can’t do anything at this point to improve or really even harm our chances at a top 1-4 pick. Literally any tanking or not is bickering between a slight improvement in odds of picking 5th over 6th or 7th. It’s not nothing, but it’s very unlikely to cost us a star player, unlike lowering your odds of picking 1st by 50% (which is what happened in your example). That’s an enormous difference in likelihood of getting a star.

I also wanted DeAndre Jordan to be a Knick, so I wasn’t a complete fool.

Wishes should have time stamps.

Pretty good piece from the NO blog perspective:
http://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/2019/02/02/the-scarlet-agency-how-the-pelicans-have-gained-control-of-the-narrative/