(Saturday, February 02, 2019 12:55:18 PM)
In his first season as Knicks head coach, David Fizdale spoke glowingly of a future in which he would coach the team’s now-former star Kristaps Porzingis. After Thursday’s trade that sent the Latvian to the Mavericks, Fizdale will not get that opportunity. Speaking to reporters, including Marc Berman of the New York Post, about the […]
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 12:55:18 PM)
In his first season as Knicks head coach, David Fizdale spoke glowingly of a future in which he would coach the team’s now-former star Kristaps Porzingis. After Thursday’s trade that sent the Latvian to the Mavericks, Fizdale will not get that opportunity. Speaking to reporters, including Marc Berman of the New York Post, about the […]
[Sports Illustrated] Source: Knicks Questioned for Porzingis Move, Rival Teams ‘Shocked’ Young Forward Was Available (Saturday, February 02, 2019 7:57:03 PM)
Porzingis was sent to Dallas on Thursday in exchange for Dennis Smith Jr. and expiring contracts.
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 4:14:09 PM)
The Knicks may remain shorthanded Sunday against the Grizzlies. Newcomers Wesley Matthews, DeAndre Jordan and Dennis Smith Jr. have still not been cleared to practice or play in games, as the physicals in the blockbuster Kristaps Porzingis trade with the Mavericks are still being finalized. “We don’t know yet. It’s still in holding,” Knicks coach…
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 2:55:24 PM)
DeAndre Jordan’s expiring contract was attractive to the Knicks. But so were his experience and potential as a tutor for Mitchell Robinson, the raw rookie center with a similar skill-set. “With the way Mitchell is coming along, the injection of a DeAndre Jordan — I mean it’s basically his big brother from a standpoint of…
[NYTimes] Warriors 115, Lakers 101: LeBron James Sits Out Again, One Game After Return to Lakers (Sunday, February 03, 2019 4:55:01 AM)
Two days after playing 40 minutes in an overtime victory, James was ruled out at Golden State. Coach Luke Walton cited “load management.”
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 3:16:15 PM)
Duke freshman Zion Williamson says he can’t help but think about his NBA future, but for now, he’s enjoying college life at Duke. “I feel like college is something I couldn’t miss out on,” he said.
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 11:53:00 PM)
Knicks head coach David Fizdale is hopeful he can trust the newly-acquired Dennis Smith Jr. to revitalize New York’s offense.
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 3:36:11 PM)
As the Knicks and their fans fantasize about a future featuring some combination of Zion Williamson, Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving, Williamson says it would be pretty sweet to play with those players.
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 5:39:23 PM)
Knicks coach David Fizdale, forward Kevin Knox and center Mitchell Robinson all look to future after the big Kristaps Porzingis deal.
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 4:01:00 PM)
Jets safety Jamal Adams hopes to recruit both NFL and NBA superstars to New York.
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 1:29:50 PM)
Zion Williamson puts another show as Knicks better hope their tanking efforts work out.
(Saturday, February 02, 2019 11:18:30 AM)
Knicks’ Enes Kanter had a supporter in Kristaps Porzingis, who shared similar views as the disgruntled veteran center.
77 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2019.02.03)”
From a New York Times column:
Pretty much how I feel about this. I would add to the “nefarious explanation” list a “look for the money” conspiracy theory that agents and presidents of basketball or GMs are involved in huge contracts that aren’t always purely basketball decisions. But obviously I cannot prove it.
I don’t think it’s really all that far-fetched that the Knicks have an under the table deal with Durant, at the very least, and quite possibly both Durant and Irving.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t be shocked if they didn’t, as well, but I think it’s quite possible that the under the table deal is for real and I would put the odds a good deal greater than just seven percent.
At the same time, though, they’re threading a very narrow needle here. I think that they need to get KD and one more top level max guy for this all to work out in their favor. When you see what a KD/Kyrie Irving-led Knick team looks like, it’s a great result but even there, there is some fragility to the set-up. KD/Kemba Walker is a step down from that. And then you start getting into some completely ridiculous situations after that. Like a KD/D’Angelo Russell team, ya know?
But I still cling to the hope that they’ll find a way to snare their White Whales this time around.
I agree that it’s possible and maybe the percentage is larger than 7 or even 20. I just can’t get excited about Durant’s decline phase and Kyrie’s injury history for the max. Put the two of them together with our current crew and they top at 45 wins and a 2nd round exit.
Even rooting for the tank feels hollow now. What’s the point, if they’re going to trade the guy anyway? I know that theoretically they may not trade him, but their history suggests they will.
Kristaps gonna Kristaps on his way outta town:
https://twitter.com/stevepopper/status/1092043899412066304
Wow
Kp got his bluff called by a competent f.o. And is crying sour grapes Over social media. Immature 23 year old.
Have fun out in the desert kid!
And remember it’s luka’s team not yours!
That’s likely reasonable for year one (I think they’d be closer to 48 wins, but same basic ballpark), but they’d have room to add guys in year two (the mid-level alone, ya know?). It’d be a fine result.
I’m about as cynical about the Knicks as you can possibly get, and I still don’t think they’d automatically get rid of whoever they draft this year. It’s just one of those thing where the guy has to be a no-doubter. Anything less than that, and yeah, there’s a decent chance they’ll end up trading him. But if they get a stud, I think they’ll keep him. Let’s hope that they get a stud!
Rockets offering a first rounder to take Brandon Knight’s contract. Knicks will and should hang onto the cap space but it’s nice to be reminded that this type of deal will be an option for us if we whiff on free agents.
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/252461/Rockets-Grizzlies-Discussing-Brandon-Knight-Deal
@4
Huh?
If we win the draft we win AD in effect. That’s something to be bummed about, yea right.
Either way it’s a good position To be in for once.
Aside, if I’m a Dallas fan I’m burning down Cubans house right now. He got fleeced by us!
The Pellies should take Zion for AD, but I dunno if they actually would. The interesting thing there is, of course, is if we are to believe that there is an under-the-table deal with KD here that involved the Knicks having to make sense for a second player, wouldn’t it have to be Irving (hence Irving suddenly talking about how he might not be a Celtic next year)? And if so, I don’t know if they can literally afford to fit all three under the cap, even if they trade, say, Knox, Frank and DSJr along with Zion for AD.
So the Knicks might not even want to deal Zion for AD if they knew they were bringing in KD and Irving since they couldn’t afford all three. KD, Irving and Zion is a heck of a Big Three in an of itself.
Irving
Trier
Durant
Zion
Robinson
Drool.
@5 – Yes! KP is like every other smug, 23 year-old who thinks he knows everything and then becomes indignant when his first employer tells him to shut up and get in line.
Think Fiz is talking out the side of his mouth about playing Matthews and DeAndre to help teach the kids to play defense, or could they actually be here and involved after the deadline?
I think it’s another one of those front office things. They want teams to think that they won’t cut them after the trade deadline because they want teams to try to trade for them. So they tell Fiz to talk up how he wants them to play. Then, if no one buys it and trades for them, then I think they’ll still get bought out.
That is my hope, Brian. But I guess that means they have to play in the next game or two.
I’m going to the game on Tuesday. I wish it was DSJR’s debut, but it seems like the Dallas guys are playing today, right?
I I’m board with signin both of those guys to very favorable contracts but it’s not an option as we have all our money tied up in two max salaries which is a good thing but we still are going to need to fill out roster.
I just hope we don’t draft Zion Williamson just to trade him, Dennis Smith Jr, the Mavericks 2021 picks, and Kevin Knox to New Orleans for Anthony Davis. As exciting as a Durant/Davis/Irving tandem sounds, I’d much rather have Zion Williamson dunking and owning New York for the next decade.
The crazy thing is that if they trade Knox, Frank and DSJR along with the pick, that still wouldn’t match AD’s salary, so KD and Irving would have to take even further less than the max to fit all three guys on the team. They clearly could do that (if they’re doing under the table agreements, you would hope they’d be willing to make it work).
The idea we have to do X,Y,Z in the offseason for the KP trade to make sense is utterly preposterous. The whole point of clearing cap space, acquiring more draft capital, and ridding ourselves of veteran talent is that we opened up our possibilities for a proper rebuild not that we narrowed those possibilities down. You all know what is restrictive? Rebuilding around a player who will end up averaging 46.5 games per season for his four year NBA career, giving him a max contract, and doing so with a glut of terrible veteran contracts on the books. That is what restrictive. We have a whole host of possibilities before us unlike ever before in franchise history.
$7 0m
Between three players.?
The amount of money they could recoup in endorsements would make up for that hair cut each would take.
I’m a broker I’m east hampton, I really hope I hear KD is renting on further lane for a week although his rental got sold I’d be happy if rented something similar though.
Oh I hope I get that lead!
I’d love Kyrie Irving to be a Knick and everything, but what happens if Dennis Smith Jr continues to improve and looks like the point guard of the future the way a guy like Lonzo hasn’t been able to in Los Angles? The Knicks could opt to go after Jimmy Butler over Kyrie Irving and have a team that looks like Smith Jr, Butler, Durant, Zion, and Mitchell Robinson.
The ability to sign two max guys to add around a group of Smith Jr, Trier, Knox, Robinson, and Ntilikina should put the Knicks in the driver’s seat this July. This situation reminds me of what happened in Miami about a decade ago. They were in the driver’s seat all along because they had enough cap space to sign 3 guys as opposed to 2 max slots teams were dying to put together.
The route to an AD/KD/Kyrie core is to sign KD and Kyrie first, then sign our 1Rp, then trade the 1Rp and whatever selection of others – Knox, Frank, DSj probably get you there – adds up to the 21m you have to send out to match AD in a trade. If we pick first, and of AD is still in the pels by then, there’s a chance they would do this I guess. We’d have to wait 30 days to complete the trade because we need to actually sign the 1Rp so his salary counts in the deal. This is what happened with Wiggins for Love.
We’d then have 100m invested in those three guys, plus one or two holdovers and 6m to Noah. So everyone else would be a min salary add that summer. The following year we’d have the MLE and bi-annual to spend.
I maintain that Kawhi makes infinitely more sense. For one thing, he’s flat out better than Kyrie. For another, he’s more likely to leave his current team than Kyrie (recent drama notwithstanding). And recall, Durant got into some heat for publicly saying that it would be unwise for Kawhi to go to LA. Some thought that was a DL recruiting pitch.
We’ve gone through it a lot over the last couple days, but even acquiring Durant and Kyrie leaves us nowhere special. It’s a 48ish win team that would have to package all its young players and picks to get decent starters to fill in the gaps. KD and Kawhi are much more ready to build a sustainable competitor with this roster.
If we trade for AD now, we’d have to send out an expiring plus young guys and the pick, which would count for 0 in cap terms. Come the summer, we’d have to shed practically every salary we had because Noah, AD and the lance guarantee = around 35m, and AD would be the only one of those actually on the roster. That leaves 8m in min roster charges and so you’re already under the 70m you need for the other two.
Yeah, that would have to be the trade. That only works, though, if they get #1, right? Because the Pellies don’t take that same deal for, say, Ja Morant.
There is absolutely zero reason to clear THJ and Lee’s salaries in the deal if the intent was not to sign two max guys this offseason. Lee only had a year left on his deal, after all. There is no way that this trade was about extending the rebuild.
What a passive aggressive little twit. Some ought to inform him and Cuban players that after 182 NBA games and numerous serious injuries who average consistently .100 ws/48 (amazingly consistent within 0.002 of a point with zero improvement) doesn’t merit 153M if you pair him with Jesus Christ.
And since when is Cuban the great talent evaluator. Other than lucking into Dirk…. isn’t he the guy who refused to match a 29 year old 2 time all star in STEVE BLEEPIN NASH? Or gave a fortune to Harrison Barnes? I could go on….. F’em both
This is why three max guys shouldn’t be the route anymore.
If we had KD Kyrie AD, then either Kyrie or KD would be extremely wasted on the court. You’d be better off with one of them, AD, and three solid two-way players at $10mm than the three of them and some guys on the vet min.
The Heat always had to scramble to find guys and got pretty lucky being able to get the likes of Korver and Allen. The Cavs always had to do the same, but they only ended up with JR & Shump which is why they were (almost) always a step behind Golden State.
But the important thing is both those teams greatly minimizes the role of their third max guy (Bosh, Love) and that greatly diminished the impact of the money allocated to them. It’s just not the best use of resources.
Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective, I feel like AD will be part of a package deal along with Kyrie for whatever team signs him. If I were Boston I’d be very worried about the chatter from AD’s camp saying he’s not interested in signing with them followed by Kyrie emphatically stating he owes no one but himself anything. Those two seem like they’re intent on doing a 2010 Lebron/D-Wade and pairing up together somewheres else. Could be with us or could be in LA with Lebron. I hope it’s with us.
Yeah, if you’re Boston, you have to be super freaked out by the recent news.
I really don’t want to put together a roster surrounding Irving, Davis, and Durant with no depth. They would obviously make up the league’s best big three, but none of those guys are known for their durability, and we’d have a paper thin roster because of their salaries.
I’m complaining as if those three wouldn’t make us the clear cut favorites to win next season’s NBA championship, but I really just want us to draft Zion and commit to a rebuild around Smith Jr, Trier, Knox, Zion, and Mitchell Robinson.
We had Melo and Amare on max deals and we still won 54 games one season, in which Amare barely played. Do you guys really think Durant and Irving wouldn’t put us at that level?
Unless it’s a catastrophic injury for Irving or Durant declines a lot, they’re still leagues ahead in terms of production than what we got from Melo and Amare. I don’t think it’s a guarantee that the Knicks would be contenders with Irving and Durant, as the team still has to be built around them, but I’m very confident it would be a damn strong core.
Durant is declining slightly, but he’s still at least a top 7 or 8 player in the league, and statistically Irving is having the best production of his career in those seasons with Boston, so he might be actually improving still.
But Durant and Kawhi don’t solve our decades-long issue at point guard. Yes, KD wants to do more playmaking, but Kyrie fits the roster better. Unless Smith balls out the next few weeks.
It wouldn’t be right away (just like it took a couple of seasons to get to 54 wins with the Melo team), but yes, I agree that KD and Irving would ultimately lead the Knicks to a 50+ win team.
How about clearing up the cap space this offseason to do a Marks and take on another team’s first round pick for helping them unload a bad contract? Seems to me that having near unlimited cap space on a rebuilding squad is always a legitimate reason for this possibility alone. And isn’t this the point? We have more possibilities towards rebuilding regardless of whether we sign X, Y, Z or if choose to stand pat and collect draft assets.
I can think of 153 million reasons to make this deal even if they knew they couldn’t sign a single free agent of any kind. An unprotected pick and a top ten protected pick plus immediately gaining flexibility to park other teams mistakes plus Smith is a good deal on its face.
They were already quarreling with Porzingis during and after her 2nd year. Remember that exit interview chaos? You can hang that on Phil but this type of BS is the organizational culture and it reeks of ego and arrogance and who knows what else. They have no idea how to handle, well, anything that isn’t perfect, and we know perfect isn’t a frequent visitor.
I’m so looking forward to watching Luka and KP together. If things go right, what an amazing duo.
Eh, it also takes two to tango. This entire drama between KP and Knicks managements eerily reminds me so much of what went down between Matt Harvey and Mets management back in 2015. Similar trajectories for both athletes who were young, talented, and pumped up in a hyped NY sports media market only to get seriously injured and begin feuding with their respective front offices about their health statuses. In retrospect, I wish the Mets had cut bait from Harvey as soon as the Knicks did from KP when his hardballing sports agent began dictating plans. I think I allowed sentimentality to cloud my judgement in that case. I see a lot of that same sentimentality surrounding this entire issue.
It’s sad to think that there’s a reasonable possibility that this trade will NOT result in a contending team anytime soon and that Dallas will be laughing in our face. IMO, the trade didn’t make it any more likely that we draft Zion, or that we attract a top-tier FA. And I firmly believe that KP at the current max for him will be at the least a vary fungible asset for the life of his contract. So for me, way too much of this deal hinges on either DSjr becoming a star, or attracting two top-shelf FAs, and neither is a good bet.
So forgetting about KP, the most likely outcome is that:
-We pick one of the following players in the draft: Ja Morant (i like) RJ Barrett (meh) Nassir Little (meh) Keldon Johnson (double-meh) Cam Reddish (barf)
-we whiff on Kyrie (stays in BOS), KD (stays in GSW), and Kawhi (signs w/ Clips)
The question is: then what?
They had plenty of cap room already to do a Marks deal.
According to the Sam Hinkie School of GM-ing you can never have too much cap room to do a Marks type deal because you have to be fluid in the eventuality that multiple teams may want to trade picks for unloading bad contracts.
Trading KP was perfectly reasonable if they were not intending to sign two max free agents this offseason. However, they most certainly could have gotten more than DSJR, a 2021 Dallas first rounder and a 2013 Top 10 protected Dallas pick if the goal was just to clear things for the rebuild. That’s obvious, since they were able to get those things while also clearing $32 million in cap room for this offseason, which is a ton of money. The fact that they chose this specific deal was because of the clearing of cap room for this specific offseason.
The Hinkie approach would have been to optimize your draft pick return for KP and not to use him to clear cap room (obviously, since Hinkie was all about taking on cap room for draft picks while extending the rebuild). They are not taking the Hinkie approach here.
What about Jesus Shuttlesworth?
Are you certain we didn’t? I will rephrase the question I asked yesterday. Can anyone find proof that we would’ve gotten more than two first round picks (one unrestricted) for KP? According to an anonymous GM source from Rick Bucher we would’ve been lucky to get a McCullum/Harris type player and one restricted draft pick for KP a week ago.
You don’t need a league source to explain the obvious. They were able to dump $32 million worth of salary on top of getting DSJR, the 2021 pick and the 2023 protected pick. It’s not hard to beat DSJR, a 2021 pick and a 2023 protected pick if you were just looking to optimize picks. They weren’t. They were looking to clear cap space for this offseason and get the other stuff.
It’s like the Shump/JR trade. That the Knicks were able to get the Cavs to take JR in exchange for taking Shump made it plainly obvious that they could have gotten more for Shump had they not attached JR. Res ipsa loquitur.
For a player coming off a major reconstructive knee surgery who is threatening to sign a qualifying offer? You’re assuming a lot according to the information I’ve gathered.
Btw – my earlier posts were just meant as factual explanations for how we could get all three – I personally don’t think we should. If – big if – we can sign two major FAs this summer I’d go for keeping the lick and current roster and holding off to see how we look before trading for more established contracts.
“Nine teams were mad that they weren’t told that Porzingis was available because they would have tried to get him” – Must be false
“A scout said that they could only get McCullum/Harris type player and one restricted draft pick” – Must be truth
In other words, the information that you’ve gathered depends a lot on choosing which pieces of information that you’ve decided to believe.
But anyhow, like I said with the JR/Shump thing, the fact that they got this much while being able to dump a ton of super-difficult to trade contracts certainly suggests, on the face of it, that they could have gotten more if they had not made dumping Lee/THJ part of the deal.
Do you think Kristaps is more or less valuable when packaged with 50 million dollars of mediocre veterans
I don’t understand why the choice has to be binary? I believe they came to the correct conclusion (the very same one we came to here) that paying 153M for Maria Callas with KP’s production was complete madness.
Once you come to that very sane conclusion the question is:
1…do you try to trade him for a semi frontline player?
2… a gaggle of picks
3… a pu-pu platter of .75 ws/48 players like LA has?
4… huge cap relief (with its inherent flexibility) plus 2 #1 picks + and improving DSJr (who they liked well enough at the draft)
Choice #4 certainly contains the Durant/Kyrie, but it isn’t the only option. There will be a lot of pissing and moaning if they don’t sign 2 big FA’s, but most here would be happy if they parked 2 horrible contracts for 2 more #1 picks. That would be an incredibly massive haul for a crippled diva.
And if they have received smoke signals that Durant and Kyrie WANT to come here…. God bless them!
Mr. Devil’s Advocate is dug in on another nonsensical premise, so why bother?
If they do, in fact, sign two mediocre max guys, I don’t think that that would be worth the 2021 Dallas pick and the 2023 Protected Dallas pick, no.
I don’t think they will do that, of course, just noting that if that was what happened, I don’t think it’d be worth it.
The Knicks were probably doing Porzingis a favor in the trade, to be honest. “We’ll trade you to a team of your choosing if you don’t make noise in the media.” Dallas was a destination KP wanted because of Dirk and Doncic, and they also doubled as a destination dumb enough to commit over $40M in salary next year to Porzingis’s bad knee and Hardaway Jr’s plantar fasciitis.
I don’t think any team would have given us $32M in cap space, last year’s 1RP, and two more 1RPs for Porzingis the way Dallas did. Darryl Morey, Masai Ujiri, and Pat Riley are probably pissed today, but I can’t think of any way another team could have checked off all of the following:
– A place Porzingis would sign long term.
– Enough expiring contracts to take on Hardaway Jr and Courtney Lee
– A young prospect viewed as valuable today
– Two first round picks
Can’t say I hate the deal at all, but I do think it means we’re all in on this summer.
bob, sure there are lots choices and flexibility, but there is no disputing that the #1 reason for making the specific trade that we did without considering other offers was to allow for the possibility of two max contracts this year. It’s painfully obvious, and the FO will be the first to tell you that. They have been wrangling to dump Lee and TH2 forever and KP’s threats and whining gave them the perfect storm for doing so in this way. Perry said before the season even started that they hoped and planned to be major players in free agency this year and Fiz has said the same on a number of occasions. Why are we even debating this?
They said weeks ago they wouldn’t spend max money on mediocre players. Turns out that’s was a shot across the bow to the s.s. Porzingis.
I don’t see why we would think that they would go back on their word and sign someone like Tobias after they moved their “franchise” player. A player they apparently didn’t think was worthy.
Does Kyrie fit the roster better? I guess he does if you’re totally out on Dennis Smith and Frank Ntilikina. I’m not, though.
So when it comes to roster fit, I’m looking at it this way:
Do I have more confidence in Smith and Frank to combine to adequately play PG with Kawhi & Durant better than I do in Knox being able to start at F with Kyrie and Durant.
A trio of Kyrie, Durant, and Knox is very troublesome.
But Frank/Smith with Durant & Kawhi (and Knox backing them up) is playable. In fact, the version that has Frank, Kawhi, Durant, Mitch actually looks like the foundation of an incredible defense.
Keep in mind, if you get Durant and Kawhi, your PG isn’t going to be a real PG since the other two will have the ball in their hands most of the time. Now you can get away with Frank at PG if he can shoot and stop turning the ball over.
Absolutely agreed. I agree that it likely wasn’t even worth checking with other teams, since it was clear that no other team could give the very specific sort of deal that Dallas gave, which is what the Knicks wanted. It’s just that the Dallas deal did, in fact, as you say, mean that they are “all in on this summer.”
Other trades would not have meant that. The fact that they wanted this particular deal is because they are “all in” on this summer.
The fact we are even discussing the chemistry of KD, ad, kwahi or kyrie is something we couldn’t dream about last week .
The two pieces of information aren’t antithetical to one another. One says 9 teams wanted in, with no mention of what they were willing to offer, and the other makes a claim about what an actual GM was willing to offer.
Depends upon how Dallas saw some of these players. A Dallas fan blog predicts THJ can play a “vital role” and reporters have respectively called them “decent veteran pieces” to surround Luka and KP with.
Yes, I know. God forbid anyone unabashedly defends this trade as a coup for Knicks management. We should all either hate its guts or hypothesize 382,812 scenarios where it will lead to another dismal failure to rebuild this team. For me, personally, this trade is a win regardless of who we do or don’t sign this offseason and I have no shame in explaining my reasoning why.
That remains my biggest gripe about the trade. I think they could have done better than Smith by engaging other teams.
This trade looks incredible if you swap Smith with a better player. Let’s say you do this trade with Sacramento, for instance, and you got Bagley or Hield. What a difference.
The problem is it’s pretty clear they love Smith and think that they *did* a premier prospect in him. I just don’t agree.
Lol
Timmy’s “vital role”= take away shots from better shooters and eat your cap space.
You’re right but that doesn’t mean they’re not willing to pivot to the Ntilakilla’s plan if Durant and Kyrie/Kawhi spurn them.
Exactly. One team’s garbage is the next team’s unpolished gem. There are actually Mavs fans who think some of this trade fodder we dumped will be “vital” for their team down the road. And it maybe so if Luka is a Lebron type playmaker who makes everyone around him better for it. But the point is that we should be careful to project our valuations upon other teams. We might think THJ is trash, but you know Carlisle is thinking about using him to replace Wesley Matthews’ role on the team.
Carlisle is going to find out the ‘hard-way ‘ what we already know about Timmy’s perimeter defense.
The fact that Carlisle may be able to extract value out of Hardaway in absolutely no way refutes the fact that attaching Tim to Porzingis diminished KP’s trade value.
Is it theoretically possible? I guess.
@67
Not at all. But what does “extract value” mean?
He no longer An overpaid 6th man?
I think you’re 100% correct that they did it for this summer, but I’m optimistic that the thought process Bob Neptune is advocating was a sufficient enough return for them if they struck out on Zion and all the free agents. If they’re smart, they were thinking “this trade is worth it even if we strike out bc now we’re completely reset and we don’t have to max this malcontent”, they just valued the opportunity to hit a home run more than getting a slightly better package for Porzingis.
He’ll replace Matthews and be their 2 for the next 2 seasons. And frankly, he’ll probably be perfectly mediocre in that role. KP & Doncic, when healthy, will be special if Carlisle coaches the Melo out of KP. Hardaway and Barnes are going to be their extremely overpaid but perfectly adequate wingmen for a couple years until the studs have grown and when they have, they’ll try to get better wingmen.0
I don’t think it’s really all that far-fetched that the Knicks have an under the table deal with Durant, at the very least, and quite possibly both Durant and Irving.
Actually, it’s INCREDIBLY far-fetched. Is it believable that Durant and Kyrie or Kyrie and AD or whatever group of players you want have some agreement AMONG THEMSELVES to go to the same franchise? Sure. But an off-the-record commitment between those players and a specific franchise itself? No. That is NOT BELIEVABLE.
First, any such arrangement would involve too many people to keep quiet. There are the players, their agents, multiple people at the Knicks, and all people in the various entourages that surround each of those individuals. We’re talking about literally DOZENS of people having at least some inkling that such a deal exists.
Second, the risk of trying to do something like that cannot be underestimated. Here’s what happened to the Timberwolves in 2000 when they tried to break the rules in signing Joe Smith:
From USA Today “The Timberwolves were fined $3.5 million, and forfeited their first-round draft picks for the next five years (the team’s 2003 pick was eventually restored). Not only was Smith’s newly-signed contract voided, his previous two were as well, meaning he would no longer retain his Bird rights with the Timberwolves. Additionally, Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor was suspended through August 31, 2001, and VP of basketball operations Kevin McHale took a leave of absence through July 31.”
That was for a deal to keep Joe Smith’s Bird rights. So start with that and multiple it at least two or three times for blatantly violating the tampering rules to sign two top 10 or top 20 players.
I know the Knicks have sucked forever and imagining some secret plan makes the KP trade more palatable, but it’s bizarre to see a smart site like this turn willfully deaf, dumb, and blind to how awesomely dangerous it would be.
Mik
It’s pretty much what happened with Lebron/Wade/Bosh and the Heat. It likely also happened with Houston and CP3. He turned down a mega-max extension from the Clippers to instead get traded to the Rockets for the last year of his deal, with a likely under-the-table agreement that the Rockets would give him the mega-max the next season.
Multiple under the table deals is pretty far fetched.
One string indication of interest from Durant through well-known back channels is extremely believable and not all similar to Joe Smith. It’s not like Durant is coming here for the room exception so we can sign more players.
But all you need is the one guy (Durant) and he can do the rest of the work on his own. The Knicks don’t need multiple assurances to proceed.
I also don’t think under the table deals between players and organizations are done. It’s more of a desire communicated between players.
A lot of this stuff is definitely more “winging it” than we’d want to believe.
That’s why you do the trade for AD or whoever IN SEASON if you can because a “bird in the hand” really helps logistically.
If we get AD, don’t you think that other stars would literally fight over that 2nd max slot in the biggest media market? But if we don’t trade for him, you still have a shot at 2 of Kyrie, KD, Kawhi, and possibly one or two other guys.
I think we should all be pretty excited about those possibilities. And if we can’t sign or trade for literally 2 of the top 7 players in the NBA, then we still have a lot of great assets: DSJ (who I think actually has the potential to make the jump that Fox did in Sacto), Mitch, our other young guys who can still be traded for vets or picks, our own picks in 2020 and onward (which will be good if we strike out in free agency), and the Mavs picks, which let’s be honest, how good will the Mavs be? Even after the trade, do the look better than Sacto even? They are still going to be bottom dwellers, even with Doncic improving. Those picks will be good assets.
Really the only thing we BY ALL MEANS DON’T want to do is spent that max slot money on guys that aren’t max players. If we don’t get 2 top 7 guys this summer, we MUST save that cap space and we MUST be terrible again.
It’s pretty much what happened with Lebron/Wade/Bosh and the Heat. It likely also happened with Houston and CP3. He turned down a mega-max extension from the Clippers to instead get traded to the Rockets for the last year of his deal, with a likely under-the-table agreement that the Rockets would give him the mega-max the next season.
Neither of those examples are correct. There’s never been ANY evidence or even an allegation that the Heat had any sort of deal/agreement/understanding with any of those players before hand. There’s also never been ANY evidence or allegation of such an arrangement between CP3 and the Rockets.
Mike
NBA teams have come a long way from the days of Joe Smith, when the Wolves foolishly violated the Stringer Bell rule. So yes, there is no evidence of their under the table agreements. There have clearly been allegations (Dan Gilbert, for one, for the Heat thing), but yes, no paper trail style evidence.
Note that Cavaliers did an under-the-table agreement with Carlos Boozer back in 2004, well after the Smith deal. Boozer then ignored it (because it was, you know, an under the table agreement) and signed with the Jazz instead, so, well, come on, obviously under the table agreements exist.