[NYTimes] Allonzo Trier Was the Basketball Kid on the Cover. Some Fraught Chapters Followed. (Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:00:12 AM)
Trier, an undrafted rookie for the Knicks, has quickly become a fan favorite. Before that, he was a prodigy on a winding journey through elite youth basketball.
[NYTimes] Timberwolves 120, Nets 113: Caris LeVert of Nets Sustains Gruesome Leg Injury, Moving Some to Tears (Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:20:31 AM)
LeVert, the team’s top scorer, landed awkwardly on his right leg while attempting to block a shot at the end of the first half at Minnesota.
[NYTimes] Jimmy Butler Joins the 76ers, as Timberwolves End Chaos With a Trade (Monday, November 12, 2018 6:13:40 PM)
The deal, which sends Dario Saric and Robert Covington to Minnesota, matches Butler with Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons in Philadelphia.
(Monday, November 12, 2018 9:49:47 PM)
Knicks shot-blocking rookie center Mitchell Robinson is preparing to play his first game Friday in New Orleans in front of family, friends and former high-school teammates. But the 7-foot “Cajun Kid’’ has another dream — being in Charlotte during All-Star Weekend in February. The 20-year-old’s pie-in-the-sky hope is hitting the daily double — being selected…
(Monday, November 12, 2018 3:36:16 PM)
It was a long Veterans Day Weekend for coach David Fizdale and the Knicks. It started Friday, with Kristaps Porzingis making Fizdale look bad with a salty Instagram post of him sprinting — after Fizdale had said he wasn’t planning on Porzingis’ return this season. The post created speculation there was friction between Fizdale and…
(Monday, November 12, 2018 10:34:14 AM)
Kevin Durant said he was not impressed by the billboard outside Madison Square Garden imploring him to play for the Knicks. But maybe he just didn’t like the ribbing he got from teammates as the result of it. When the Warriors visited New York in late October for the matchup, they noticed the sign welcoming…
(Monday, November 12, 2018 9:21:57 AM)
Frank is in the tank, and Knicks coach David Fizdale may make another move at point guard. Starter Frank Ntilikina was benched after the game’s first 5 minutes, 45 seconds Sunday, never seeing the court again in the 115-89 humiliation by Orlando as Trey Burke started the second half. After playing poorly on offense in…
(Monday, November 12, 2018 7:27:31 PM)
Knicks forward Kevin Knox sends a message to thank the troops for Veterans Day.
(Monday, November 12, 2018 11:15:27 AM)
The amount of vitriol and hate going around for Carmelo Anthony this offseason was ridiculous. And with his brief tenure with the Rockets reportedly about to come to an end, Melo is getting it from all angles again.
96 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.11.13)”
Kings look intriguing, adding Giles and Bagley, other guys developing, nice to see. That said, I also think the Spurs aren’t that good any more. Pop can only do so much with that bunch.
I was close! As of now my Robert Williams ranking isn’t looking too hot, but I’m more or less comfortable with everything else.
….
All true, Bruno, but those things didn’t just happen for no reason.
Last year’s Kings played a two-big offense with Randolph and WCS. This year they woke up and adopted Modern NBA Offense #1 and replaced Randolph with Bjelica and suddenly everyone improved. Same thing happened in New Orleans last year when they replaced Boogie with Mirotic. We’re one of the few teams in the entire NBA still playing with two traditional bigs and it’s making everyone look a lot worse.
In fairness to Fizdale, at least he seems to know this and it’s not a case of Woodson-itis. Here’s a quote from him yesterday in which he admits he’s holding the team back intentionally to focus on defense:
I don’t expect Knox and Hezonja to shoot like Bjelica but playing them at the 4 is going to open up a lot when/if we actually do it.
Mike Vorkunov finally did his first Long Twos podcast episode of the season the other day, with James Herbert as his guest. They talked a lot about this primitive offense so far, and how surprising it is compared to Fizdale’s rhetoric in the offseason and the training camp. Neither loves it, but both seemed to understand that this is Fiz recognizing A)what a limited talent base he’s been dealt, and B)how much the players need to focus on basic fundamentals and organization. He’s stripped the offense down to the studs to very slowly build it back up again, where he didn’t have to do that in Memphis when he had gifted two-way players like Conley and Gasol. (And Gasol wound up hating him, anyway.) It’s a good listen, and has me inclined to agree with Hubert that Fiz isn’t Woodson 2.0, but simply is making the best of a bad roster situation, hoping that some of these guys will learn enough that they can be useful when the team becomes more talented and he can finally install a modern offense.
I’ll defer to the NBA coach in this instance, but from a logical perspective, I don’t understand:
a) how running a suboptimal offense helps a team with limited talent (it would seem the opposite would be true)
and
b) why you can’t focus on fundamentals while playing a modern offense.
It seems the gist of it is he knows if he runs a modern NBA offense with these guys, they’ll get blown out a lot because of how bad the defense would be, so he’s loading the box, so to speak, to keep games close. I suppose this is smart early in the season. At some point I’d rather just let these kids sink or swim running a proper offense.
I’m hoping Knox will replace Vonleh in the starting lineup soon just to give our offense a more sensible feel. I highly doubt it will make a positive difference, and it could even make a negative one, but it’s probably best to get guys used to playing in a modern offense. What we’re doing right now is pretty difficult to watch.
Other than that though it really is deckchairs on the Titanic.
Fun fact: if you filter for 100+ MP, the Knicks have both the best and worst rookies by BPM. It’s not hard to guess who’s who.
Vonleh could play the 5 just as well as Kanter, no? I’d rather split the time there between him and Mitchell and trade or release Enes.
@3
Yes, Bjelica is surely a big part of it. I’ve always liked his game, his incredible shooting is coming back to earth as expected but he can contribute in many ways (when he isn’t absolutely misused like Thibs did), but I also really think Fox is for real. He’s shooting what probably is an unsustainable .442 from 3 in 3 attempts per game, but he’s upped his FTA from 3.5 per 36 to 6.8 which is very good, and he’s only hitting 68% of them, lower than last year, so there’s room for him to get more efficient points out of this many free throws if he starts hitting more. He has upped his assists and rebounds without turning the ball so much more (3.1 to 3.5 this season), which is also a great sign. I’m very high on him as a future star.
Terrible about LeVert. Weirdest thing is that Derrick Rose was present for the George, Hayward and LeVert injuries.
+1
I’m rooting for the Kings as long as they make sure the Celtics don’t get a good lottery pick.
He’s Mr. Glass.
I actually came to whine about how every time I see an SGA boxscore I get more and more enraged at this franchise. If you were going the young/upside route, he seemed to me to be better than Knox at everything. He’s even blocking more shots and getting more rebounds as a PG than Knox as a 4. Is Knox really getting 3 boards per 36??? How is that possible?
It’s crazy how far and fast the Rockets have fallen. Has Paul finally hit a wall? Is their spacing all effed up now? What is it? (Yes, Carmelo is terrible, but it can’t all be him. But I do think Gary Clark will be a big help for them when he gets those minutes… wish we had nabbed him.)
Okay, so we’re putting together a “modern offense” lineup for the Knicks focusing on ball movement and 3 point shooting
C: Mitchell Robinson
PF: Dotson
SF: Timmy
SG: Trier
PG: Burke
With the possible exception of Burke none of those guys are good passers, and only Trier is a good 3 point shooter.
@7
MRob and Trier best
Knox and ??? worst?
Rookies implied we have more than 1 worst, but that maybe isn’t what you meant.
I can’t watch the LaVert video. Anyone know what happened to his leg?
Basically Hayward’s injury. His ankle turned almost completely the opposite direction.
It was also sort of dislocated horizontally? I didn’t think it looked as gross as Haward’s but it was real fucked up. You could see the Wolves player who fell with him start getting up normally and then jump up/away when he saw LaVert’s ankle
LeVert no surgery and will return this year!
Woj:
Shams:
Robinson should be the starting C because the gap between him and Vonleh isn’t large enough to matter one way or the other and it’s Robinson’s job to lose long term anyway.
Vonleh should be the backup C (and play some PF) and KP should get some minutes there also in some lineups when he comes back.
Kanter is a 3rd string player. I don’t care what his individual stats say and what all the subtle reasons are for it, the team is horrible when he’s on the court and this is not the first lineup or team this is true of. His individual and team defense is horrible.
I’d like to see Knox at PF a little to keep Dotson on the court for now.
If Frank doesn’t perk up a little and get to the point where we can confidently say he’s slowly improving, we may need to make a move for another PG. It going to be a long process with Frank no matter how you slice it, but we have to see “something”. We can’t be “all in” on a player that’s this negative on offense no matter how elite he is on defense. Mudiay and Burke are not the answer.
I support Swiftandabundant’s idea of not talking about frank for a while. Some of you guys are like a bunch of investors who look at their 401k every day and get mad that it isn’t incrementally improving.
The next time I’m judging Frank is the end of the season. I hope, between now and then, he gets as much time as possible playing the point (at least 25 mins a game). We literally have nothing to lose.
Hey Hubert and swift, how about if we continue commenting on whatever we want to comment on as often as we like, and those who don’t like it can skip over any commentary they find to be annoying or repetitive? Agreed? Perfect!
Sure, Z-Man. I’ll just lump the game-to-game-linear-improvement demanders in with birthers, creationists, climate-change deniers, and all the other dogmatists who are allergic to reason.
Meow
We need a PG no matter what, because even if Frank pans out it is not going to be as a lead guard.
Sorry, I talked about Frank, my bad
Everybody needs to leave Pablo Roberson alone.
@26, as long as you don’t lump me in with whatever it is that you and your ilk are, that’s ok by me.
Why so soon? Why don’t we give Frank 7 years to develop his game? I mean, how do we know he won’t become a superstar by year 4? Maybe we should give equal treatment to all rookies and stop talking about them for the next 5 years!
End of season might be too soon….
lmao
We’re high-functioning alcoholics. Depending on your golf score this weekend, I’m afraid you might be one of us.
I’m not expecting Frank to show tangible improvement from game to game. When I was more or less guaranteeing he’d become a much better player because of his work ethic and high basketball IQ a couple of weeks ago I said there would be some down periods where even I lost some faith. That hasn’t changed.
However, I’m honest with myself too. Our weakest position is still PG. At some point we are going to have to say “Frank is our guy and we’ll deal with the ups and downs in his development” or we are going to remain on the fence. If we remain on the fence then adding another young PG with starting potential via draft would probably be the right thing to do (or get one in a trade or FA).
I’m still pretty convinced he’s going to be a solid 3&D player and playmaker, but I’m less convinced he’s a true PG. He’s probably more suited to the role he was drafted for.
I played golf about as well as Frank played basketball this weekend. And I only consume alcohol for medicinal purposes.
Ntilikina sucks.
We don’t need to wait for no stinking end of the stinking season. He stinks right now.
If you want to sign Kemba Walker this summer, Strato, I’m on board. I’m a big fan of his.
But we followed your plan last year and it cost us a real asset just to bring in Emmanuel Mudiay. I don’t want to make that mistake again. I’d just as soon let Frank finish his age 20 season and put him in the best position to succeed next year after careful (i.e. not knee jerk) evaluation.
I don’t know who said it the other day (it might have been you) but some Knicks fans have a really hard time walking the walk when it comes to rebuilding. Maybe Dolan was right about not being able to do it in NY.
I wanted nothing to do with Mudiay.
I think Walker is a very good player, but I don’t want to pay a huge premium for him. I’d just as well draft another PG this year as a hedge. I like where we are everywhere else.
Robinson – C
KP – PF/C
Knox – SF/PF
Dotson – SG/SF
Hardaway – SG
Trier – SG
Frank and ? – PG
That’s not the worst young core. It’s something to work with. It’s just a long way away from being really good unless we add a real star in the off season and KP is better than ever next year.
WOJ:
[irrational Knicks fan mode: activated]
KD IS COMING TO THE KNICKS BOOK IT NOW NOW NOW HE HATES DRAYMOND BOOK IT BOOK IT KD PLUS KP 4EVUH
The Lip Readers of the Internet seemed convinced Draymond was calling Durant a bitch.
Interesting subplot: assuming Draymond wants to get paid and stay in the Bay Area, it is in his best interest if Durant leaves.
Cool article that just got published (link is to arxiv version not journal version)
https://arxiv.org/abs/1701.05976
We should want Frank to develop slowly on the offensive side of things. It will mean it will be cheaper to retain him when his rookie contract is up. Guys who score POINTZ always get overpaid. Frank could be one of those dudes who doesn’t score a lot of points and therefore won’t get paid but will contribute to wining basketball because of his defense, high IQ and team first style of play. If we have scorers with KP, Knox, Hardaway…someone like Durant or Irving, Trier off the bench…we won’t need Frank to score lots of points.
@43
I agree. If we get an all star caliber scorer/play maker, Frank doesn’t have to do anything other than defend, hit wide open 3s at a decent rate, and occasionally make a play.
Frank needs a lot of work and improvement to be a useful player. Based on the performance so far he is not going to make it as a starting caliber point guard. The best outcome will be a solid three and D player at the 2 or 3. Accordingly he should be shooting 300 three pointers every day to make himself able to contribute on the offensive end. That way if he becomes competent at shooting threes he can dribble up court, pass to the first open guy after crossing mid court as he does, then get open at three point line and wait for a catch and shoot opportunity.
I’m fine with the tank/rebuild. These losses have been good, but they need to amass enough of them and/or get lucky enough to get a top 3 pick. If they end up picking 8th again (very likely) they (and we fans) will remain in middling hell for the foreseeable future.
They have needed a competent point guard for this entire century. They absolutely need to find a good one or they will continue to suck no matter what. For some unknown reason the organization has placed little importance on addressing this vital position. The results speak for themselves.
KD is not coming to NY, but keep fantasizing if it makes you happy.
What evidence do we have that Frank has a high basketball I.Q.? I’m sure he’s a smart guy but Jeremy Lin is a smart guy who’s basketball I.Q. doesn’t seem particularly high- he’s spent his whole career over-penetrating and coughing the ball up. Frank is a very good point of attack defender but he’s not great off of the ball. He loses track of his man a lot- he was the best in the league at guarding the PNR but as I recall he was in the 8th percentile (very bad) at guarding spot-ups. He still commits a ton of really stupid fouls 30 feet from the basket etc… And as for his legendary work ethic- he clearly bulked up but statistically he’s almost exactly the same player he was last season. Obviously he’s still really young and he’s going to improve but he’s a bad player right now. Yes the criticism of him on this site can be overly harsh (including this one) but when people are pencilling him in as a future starter on a good team (as happens regularly) they’re being just as wrong-headed- he’s barely a rotation player on a bad team. If playing time was handed out by merit he’d probably be the third-string point and third-string two. He might be the back-up three but that just speaks the dearth of talent on the team.
The amount of time we have spent discussing Frank is a real credit to the dedication of this fan base. The only way this can end is with him turning into a star for another team in five years on a bargain contract.
Will Leitch chimed in on Carmelo. Schadenfreude levels are quite high in my neighborhood….
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/what-happened-to-carmelo-anthony.htmlhttp://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/what-happened-to-carmelo-anthony.html
my new credo – i only do x for medicinal purposes …
@47
Yeah, it really feels insane if you remove yourself from the situation and look at it lol. But this is what I love about here too, all (or most of) the posts have actual arguments in them, even the blatant optimistic or pessimistic ones, which will always beat the cesspool that is other discussion platforms for basketball in general.
This year’s draft is very thin on point guards. There’s Ja Morant– fairly intriguing player but not really lottery material, and then Darius Garland, who seems a little undersized, and those guys are the top two. And Morant might really be more of a combo guard type. I guess Tre Jones is out there too, but again he doesn’t seem like a lotto pick type of PG.
If we draft a PG this season it means we missed out on all of the 4 top prospects so we’d be pretty fucked.
@51 – yeah, that sounds vaguely familiar
Frank was drafted to be part of a play making tandem with another player like himself. He was not drafted to be a ball dominant penetrating PG that scores and runs the P&R. That’s party why we have this problem. We have exactly what we Phil wanted tp develop. We have a high level defender with some ball handling and play making skills that needs to develop his shot.
We are trying to turn him into something he is not.
It was going to take time to turn him into the best version of what he was destined to be. It’s going to take even longer for him to learn how to be what he never was (if ever).
Maybe he does not have the physical tools (quickness and handle) to become what we are trying to make him. However, as bad as he is on offense, he’s still better than Burke and Mudiay. Those guys are bad on both sides.
It’s either Frank and patience or another PG.
We could just take a chance on D’Angelo Russell in free agency.
Are there any interesting point guards that figure to be second round picks? We’ve done well overall on our second rounders for the last few years, so I wonder if there’s anyone that we could potentially pick up on the cheap out of this upcoming draft.
According to Shams, the very important Draymond Green/Kevin Durant relationship might not be so hot:
https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1062456965840953345
@55 Shamorie Ponds is a guy I’ve liked since he was winning the NYC high school basketball championship at Thomas Jefferson HS. I think he should be available in the second round.
Or a ball handler who can initiate the offense from another position.
The people who insist Frank can’t be a PG are locked into the idea that the PG needs to be the primary ballhandler and initiator of the offense. If hell freezes over and Durant signs here, or if we win the lottery and draft Zion or maybe even Barrett, he won’t need to do that and he’ll be just fine in the role Phil and Gaines envisioned him. And we’ll likely have the best PnR defense in a league that runs everything off the PnR.
@56 saw this in the comments under that tweet. Harsh but funny.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PURE_NBA23/status/1062457080605499393/photo/1
I think it’s a fair question to ask if Pablo Roberson is a better long term off guard than Damyean Dotson, who is basically a better rebounding version of Courtney Lee. If Frank Ntilikina actually becomes a cross between Pablo Prigioni and Andre Roberson, you’ve got yourself one of the best value players in the entire league, and those are both players who shy/shied away from offense. That player is without a doubt a shooting guard, though. Compare that to what we already have in Dotson, and that’s a 3&D guy with potential to be elite as a 3PT shooter and a rebounding guard. Having as many strong rebounders next to KP is ideal, so I like the idea of starting Dotson in the future. I also like the idea of Frank’s elite defense, team first passing, and ability to keep elite guards from tearing us up every night.
Between Vonleh, Mitch, Frank, and Dotson, we have two long term starters. I think this entire season should be devoted to developing those four exclusively, and that we should trade TH2 and Knox in a package deal for a scorer worth his high usage.
Agree with @57 on Shamorie Ponds. Before he opted to stay last year the models generally had him as first round talent despite being projected to go in the late 30s/early 40s. He’ll probably be a late first or early second this year if he improves. If he stays the same he’ll be in the 40s again.
What if Draymond is right?
@62
Then it matters very little because KD also happens to be one of the best offensive players of all time?
Or if you meant Draymond was right on the comments about free agency, well, I do hope he’s right.
Draymond getting suspended for a game seems kinda soft. Guess he said some real bad stuff to KD.
Literally nobody who ever lived would be making the right decision if their choices are “pass to KD or shoot the game winner” if they chose the latter option.
Also, the Draymond relationship is actually the one that got KD to come to GSW in the first place. If KD and Draymond aren’t getting along, there might be enough intrigue after a 3rd championship for KD to want to leave. And even if he leaves, Steph, Klay, Draymond, and Cousins is more than enough to win a fourth.
People are overreacting to this. These are competitive athletes. The fact that they got mad at each other means they actually care about winning still. These guys have been playing together and practicing together for years at this point. Shit will get heated at times.
My post is getting rejected. It contains a link to a Washington post article about how the Warriors do many more off ball screens than pick and rolls, unlike the rest of the league. It is worth reading.
@68
You need to add “Frank” or “Ntilikina” to your posts to assure acceptance!
🙂
@67
I think it’s more that people are sick and tired of the season’s champion being kinda decided before it even began, and are reaching for any small possibility that the Warriors might break at some point. It’s more wishful thinking than overreaction, I guess.
Warriors can’t keep Cousins. Or at least they can’t if he does anything this year. They won’t have even his early bird rights, so can only offer him $7 million or something. He’s gone for sure unless he doesn’t play.
Klay could be gone too. Depends on what he wants.
J.E. Skeets had my favorite tweet on the situation:
So what’s Fiz’s starting lineup tomorrow night? Mitch-Knox-Dotson-TH2-Burke? That’s what I’d like to see anyway.
I imagine it’s just subbing Knox in for Vonleh.
It’s kind of amazing that Frank is the only Knick player to start every game this season so far.
Draymond getting suspended a game should calm the waters….
Yeah, probably Knox for Vonleh, although I’d like to see Burke run the starting offense for a change.
wouldn’t dinwiddie or rozier be better options?
man, if we had just drafted SGA we could have finally stop talking about whom the knicks can get to run the point…
“man, if we had just drafted SGA we could have finally stop talking about whom the Knicks can get to run the point…”
Agree, he looked really good last night against the Warriors. I was thinking the same thing watching the game. But we have Kevin Knox and his upside which is something, in theory any way.
As far as I am concerned, Knox is an unknown at the moment since he has played so little.
I don’t think Burke will start. He gives up too much on defense. Maybe Mudiay. Or Maybe Knox will move into tge starting line up
it’s just not last year’s draft…it’s been more than a decade and a half (except for maybe felton, kidd was mostly toast when he was here) of not adequately addressing one of the most key positions on the roster…but, we got ourselves plenty of guards…
heck, we’d be better off having frank mason 3 running the point for us…at least he’s an actual point guard…
oh well, we’ll get another chance at it this off-season…hopefully fiz keeps running frank out there the rest of the season to help prove the point that frank’s not a lead guard…useful guy on the roster – but, he’s not running anyone’s offense anytime soon…
The last few games, Frank has made some really lazy passes that became turnovers. I think that drives coaches crazy (and I don’t like it either)
Tony Parker wondered if NYK would be patient with Frank, when they asked about him last year. Usually, consensus on this blog is accurate. People here knew what Carmelo was before the trade. Ditto Bargnani, etc. So, far be it for me to go against that, still I wonder if it’s too early to give up. I’d just like to see him take twenty shots a game for a week. I mean, you can’t set anyone up unless you’re a threat to score yourself. The kid seems to have what it takes. Long, athletic, good D, nice stroke, he gets to spots when he wants. He just seems like he’s not aggressive. Obviously, that could translate to a simple “doesn’t have it” but, all our other PGs are known commodities. So just on the basis of seeing what we have the kid should play and should be given a green light.
It is a weird starting lineup when three players basically only look to defer. Knox for Vonleh aughta help that. Interesting that coach seems to be playing slow down as a way to keep the score close. So we may get better offensively but lose by more.
Zion or bust. Um Go Knicks? Get us another feel good loss?
Guarantee you, this would get old after a single game. Maybe a single half.
.
As much as I love Zion, RJ will be the first pick. Plus Cam Reddish can do everything.
We just need to be top 3 in the draft.
Kevin Knox scores about as efficiently as Ntilikina does except he shoots a lot and plays no defense. By all means, play the kid, we have nothing better to do, but it will absolutely not help if he replaces Vonleh unless Knox gets dramatically better. He’s been one of the worst players in the NBA so far. (small sample size obviously)
I agree. I think the current starters play NBA level defense, but basically only have Hardaway on offense, unless some other players get lucky. I actually expect that Mudiay might get a start instead of Ntilikina, but I could easily be wrong. Mudiay is a better defender than Knox, and might set up other players better.
Absolutely, as long as it’s with the Westchester Knicks.
Kemba with the aggressive regression
Getting thoroughly wrecked by the Cavs is a bad look.
Durant is actually underrated.
Bill James is right that players who do a lot of things well but nothing great are the most underrated players, while players who are great at one thing are overrated.
Well Durant can do everything great but doesn’t light up any particular stat. He’s a 7 foot guy playing pg with Curry out, who can guard any position and is unstoppable on offense from anywhere on the floor. He’s a privilege to watch.
He has a high usage and hasn’t had a TS% under 60 in 8 years he must be pretty fucking good at something.
Bruh he has been one of the top players in usage and efficiency since he left Seattle
He’s not underrated, he’s a perennial MVP candidate since about 2012
There still are good reasons to tank:
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/11/13/18089952/nba-draft-2019-tanking-zion-williamson-2020-mock