(Sunday, June 24, 2018 7:42:47 PM)
Knicks center Enes Kanter denied a report on Sunday that indicated he was expected to opt out of his $18.6 million player option for the 2018-19 season.
(Monday, June 25, 2018 2:00:00 AM)
Who is in charge of defending our democracy from propaganda? We focus a lot on the role Moscow played in manipulating our elections in 2016. I have yet to see Congress or the administration actually assign the job of dealing with the threat to anyone in government.
Russia is returning for round…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 2:00:00 AM)
A secure retirement built on a strong pension has always been the ultimate reward and “thank you” for a lifetime of service by our public servants. Unfortunately, massive unfunded liabilities in pension systems across the country threaten that security. This is not only because of chronic underfunding,…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 2:00:00 AM)
The entire police force of a Mexican town has been arrested after suspicions around the death of a candidate running for mayor.
Officers in Ocampo, west of Mexico City, were questioned by state authorities after the assassination of Fernando Ángeles Juárez, from the left-leaning PRD.
Angeles was…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 1:10:00 AM)
Having barely dipped his toe in the pool in his first term, Mayor de Blasio is right to finally dive into a school integration debate that’s been riveting the city (and this editorial page) for years.
But he’s chosen an awfully strange first fight.
It’s true that the city’s specialized high schools…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 1:05:00 AM)
Gov. Cuomo is not on trial in federal prosecutors’ present bid-rigging case against former SUNY Polytechnic Institute president Alain Kaloyeros, any more than he was in the conviction of former aide Joe Percoco for enriching his family at influence-seekers’ expense.
But both associates, it’s plenty…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 1:00:00 AM)
State lawmakers have given Google Maps and other web mapping services the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their accuracy.
A bill approved in the final hours of the state Legislature’s annual session would give Google Maps and other global imaging websites the presumption of accuracy when…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 1:00:00 AM)
In a year where little got done, picking winners of the just-completed state legislative session was not easy. But there were plenty of losers.
Winners:
Senate Democrats: After years of being in the minority, the Democrats are on the precipice of controlling the chamber. They reunited with eight…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 1:00:00 AM)
This table displays offers of admission to eighth graders at each New York City public middle school for the 2018-19 school year to the eight New York City high schools that decide admissions exclusively based on the Specialized High School Admissions Test (SHSAT). In total, students received about…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 12:55:00 AM)
The insurgent Democratic candidates taking on Gov. Cuomo and Queens Rep. Joseph Crowley in primaries are set to cross-endorse each other Monday, the Daily News has learned.
Actress and actvist Cynthia Nixon’s backing of Crowley opponent Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez comes a day before Tuesday’s much-watched…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 12:50:00 AM)
Leecia Eve, one of four Democratic candidates running for state attorney general, has begun staffing up by dipping into her ties to Gov. Cuomo and Hillary Clinton.
Eve, a Verizon lobbyist and former aide to Cuomo and Cinton, has hired as her campaign manager her brother, Ichor Strategies founder…
(Monday, June 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM)
Let’s paws the scientific abuse
Middle Village: I had to really compose myself before putting my opinion to paper (“SUNY catastrophe,” June 22). It seems to me that the SUNY College of Optometry in Manhattan offers nothing more than a sadistic inhuman practice of torturing live cats and kittens…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 11:30:00 PM)
China is oh so bothered by John Oliver’s “Winnie the Pooh” insults against its leader that it has blocked his whole channel.
Hbo.com has been 100% blocked for Chinese Internet users after Oliver devoted a segment to the People’s Republic on his show “Last Week Tonight” last week, according to monitor…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 9:50:00 PM)
As dusk descended upon the New York City skyline Sunday evening, Florence Welch sauntered past burning sage and bouquets of wildflowers toward a makeshift stage located just a few feet from the banks of the East River.
She was performing for a crowd of no more than 200 guests, who sat on crates…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 9:30:00 PM)
A Bronx man will face federal charges after he and several others chased a teenage boy onto the Bronx River Parkway and repeatedly stabbed him last week, cops said Sunday.
Ramon Paulino, 21, was busted on attempted murder, gang assault and assault charges for his role in the Monday afternoon attack,…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 8:30:00 PM)
Just a few months out of prison, rapper Meek Mill used the BET Awards stage to honor XXXTentacion and Jimmy Wopo, who were both shot and killed last week.
Mill debuted his new song, “Stay Woke,” during a timely performance set in the streets of Philadelphia.
Joined on stage by Miguel, Meek, whose…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 8:25:00 PM)
CLEARLAKE OAKS, Calif. — Wind-driven wildfires destroyed buildings and threatened hundreds of others Sunday as they raced across dry brush in rural Northern California.
The Pawnee fire that broke out Saturday near the community of Clearlake Oaks has destroyed 12 buildings and threatened an additional…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 8:20:00 PM)
A 15-year-old boy from Honduras ran away from the nation’s largest facility for migrant children in Texas and may be back in Mexico.
The teen jumped a fence and bolted Saturday afternoon during “scheduled outside time” at the Southwest Key Casa Padre shelter on the outskirts of Brownsville, according…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 8:00:00 PM)
The Brooklyn man accused of chopping off his pregnant wife’s arm with a steak knife will face attempted murder and assault charges, cops said Sunday.
Yong Lu, 35, who was busted in Niagara Falls on Saturday, was hauled back to Brooklyn Sunday. He’s accused of hacking off his wife’s right arm below…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 8:00:00 PM)
Joe Jackson appears to be reflecting on his life as it comes to an end.
The Jackson family patriarch, who was hospitalized Friday with terminal cancer, shared a heartbreaking message on social media last Sunday.
“I have seen more sunsets than I have left to see,” he captioned a sunset photo on…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 6:30:00 PM)
Someone find Hanley Ramirez a new friend.
It turns out the ex-Red Sox slugger is not actually under federal investigation regarding the distribution of fentanyl, as a straight out of left field ABC report originally suggested earlier this week.
Instead, one of his buddies simply threw him under…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 6:30:00 PM)
Hansel Robles is still pointing to the sky.
The ex-Met made his Angels debut against the Blue Jays Sunday, and it went as well as you’d expect.
Robles entered the game in the 10th inning with the score tied at 6. The right-handed reliever promptly retired the first two batters before things ultimately…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 5:35:00 PM)
The U.S. attorney’s office in Manhattan nixed a meeting with Stormy Daniels for the probe into whether President Trump’s troubled lawyer Michael Cohen violated campaign finance laws with a $130,000 hush deal, her lawyer said Sunday.
The porn star was slated to speak with prosecutors Monday, but…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 5:20:00 PM)
It’s time to choose between two reality show hosts.
President Trump fired back after Jimmy Fallon issued a mea culpa for his controversial “Tonight Show” interview with the then-Republican nominee in September 2016, during which the late show host lobbed softball questions and ruffled the politician’s…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 5:10:00 PM)
ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. — It was high. It was far. It was caught by the shortstop.
The quirky Trop got the best of Clint Frazier and the Yankees in the ninth inning on Sunday afternoon, as the 24-year-old’s fly ball to left deflected off a speaker on the B ring catwalk, turning a possible homer into…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 4:55:00 PM)
Authorities are trying to determine if a child’s body found in the waters off Long Beach, L.I., is that of a 10-year-old boy who went missing last week while swimming with his brother.
Police on Long Island tell Newsday the body was discovered off Lincoln Blvd. on Sunday afternoon and taken to…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 6:02:39 PM)
David Fizdale’s middle name isn’t Naismith, but Knicks brass does have confidence its brand-new coach invented basketball. Thursday’s draft was confirmation after the Knicks selected 18-year-old small forward Kevin Knox over the more established Mikal Bridges and Miles Bridges, and snagging the rawest of 20-year-olds in Louisiana mystery man Mitchell Robinson without a workout. Since…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 6:31:42 AM)
Carmelo Anthony decided that a foray into free agency wouldn’t be cost effective — and knows how angry he just made a lot of Thunder fans. The 34-year-old veteran forward decided against opting out of his player option and will stick with Oklahoma City for a $27.9 million salary in the 2018-19 season. Anthony faced…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 6:02:39 PM)
David Fizdale’s middle name isn’t Naismith, but Knicks brass does have confidence its brand-new coach invented basketball. Thursday’s draft was confirmation after the Knicks selected 18-year-old small forward Kevin Knox over the more established Mikal Bridges and Miles Bridges, and snagging the rawest of 20-year-olds in Louisiana mystery man Mitchell Robinson without a workout. Since…
(Sunday, June 24, 2018 6:31:42 AM)
Carmelo Anthony decided that a foray into free agency wouldn’t be cost effective — and knows how angry he just made a lot of Thunder fans. The 34-year-old veteran forward decided against opting out of his player option and will stick with Oklahoma City for a $27.9 million salary in the 2018-19 season. Anthony faced…
163 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.06.25)”
JK posted these last night. Someone else referenced Darko Milicic. It certainly makes the “he had a great workout” concept as a predictor less than foolproof and more like talk. Anyhew, he does seem to be likable and he is a 19 yea rold so it would be boorish to “root” for him to underwhelm just so I can post “I told you so” on an internet board.
“His workout was one of the best we’ve ever had here,” Coach Mike D’Antoni said at Shumpert’s introductory news conference. “When we were here, all the coaches, some of the scouts and the front office all kind of turned together at the same time and said, ‘Wow, this is pretty good.’ From Day 1, we were pretty sold on him.”
Shumpert’s defensive athleticism, sorely needed on a team that was among the worst defensively in the league last season, was his known asset. Shumpert has a 42-inch vertical leap and a 6-foot-10 wingspan. His shooting, however, was regarded as something of a question mark.
But Shumpert, who averaged 17.3 points and 3.5 assists last season, helped dispel that notion during the workout. The Knicks said they believed that his shot was smooth and that his scoring ability had been undersold. The 6-5 Shumpert can play at either guard spot, too, adding needed depth.
“He said he couldn’t shoot,” D’Antoni said, “but he came in and had almost a picture-perfect shot, and we think that can get a lot better.
“He had one of the best workouts that I’ve seen in a lot of years. He’s a little bit of everything. He can play point, he can play the 2, he can guard some 3s. He’s an exciting young man. His personality and his ability to work hard are big factors, and we’re excited about having him.”
The Glass Half Rebuilt had posted this previously:
Which, I mean… I don’t care how well he shot in the workout, he didn’t “prove” that he’s now a 40% shooter. He just shot well in a workout. Iman Shumpert shot well in a workout too, and that ended up meaning exactly nothing. Shump is a career .338 shooter from 3PT, which is a poor number in this day and age. The league as a whole shot .362 from 3PT last year.
It’d be great if Knox pans out and turns out to be a deadly offensive player… I would WAY rather that happen than be the anonymous guy who was right about something on a message board. I’m just not buying the hype that Knox is some different player than he was in college, and that the geniuses who brought you the Tim Hardaway contract and the Emmanuel Mudiay and Willy Hernangomez trades have a particularly great eye for untapped talent.
While I definitely agree that Knox’s freshman year statistical profile is not good, you can probably find plenty of example both ways — ie. athletic dudes who weren’t “good at basketball” except their physical tools that became really great, or dudes that were not quite as athletic or “high ceiling” who were “really good at basketball” who then failed. Obviously you’d rather take guys that have both high ceiling and production, but then maybe those guys don’t last until #9.
Just thinking about it for 2 seconds already brought up a number of guys:
Jaylen Brown- very athletic 6’7″ “modern forward”
– Freshman year at Cal – 43% FG, 48.2% 2P%, 29.4% 3P%, 51.8% TS, 10.8 TRB, 15.3 AST, 1.7 STL%, 2.2 block%, 17.9% TOV%, .117 WS/40
Kevin Knox – very athletic 6’9″ modern forward
– Freshman year at UK – 44.5% FG, 50.9 2p%, 34% 3P%, 55.6% TS, 9.3% TRB, 8.7 AST, 1.5 STL, 1% block, 14.1% TOV, 0.133 WS/48
A little more in terms of raw assists, steals, and blocks for Brown, but still a (very) unimpressive A/TO ratio (2.9 to 4.5 per 40) and pretty underwhelming overall (no one’s going to write home about 1.2 steals and 0.9 blocks per 40). Ainge was killed for drafting him at #3 but that seems to have worked out ok for him — largely because Ainge believed in the kid, the tools, and the ability for Brad Stevens to develop him appropriately.
Now obviously Ainge’s history buys him a lot more leeway for decisions like this, but hey, you have to start somewhere. Let’s see whether this FO+coach can follow up their big development talk with some actual development.
Who killed Ainge for taking Brown? It was a shitty draft after the top two. Was someone seriously, like, “How could you pass over Dragan Bender or Kris Dunn?” Mikal Bridges probably goes top five in the 2016 draft.
EDITED TO ADD: Okay, massive killed Ainge for taking Brown. That’s fair. 🙂
btw i’ll let you guess who this scouting report is about:
Hint: here’s the source link: Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jaylen-Brown-72912/ ©DraftExpress
A slightly less awkward interview with Mitchell Robinson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRcA4QLyGUQ
Telegram.com (local boston paper): The “Wow!” factor was certainly not felt throughout the fan base on Thursday as the pick was lustily booed at the season ticket-holder party at TD Garden when Celtics managing partner Wyc Grousbeck announced to the crowd that Brown was here to stay.
CBSsports draft grade = D+: “Whew, where do we even start with this one? Boston went down to the last second fielding offers for No. 3, but ultimately decided to keep the pick. Given some of the offers that were made public, I’m not entirely sure about that decision being all that prudent with how things ended up for them, selecting Jaylen Brown.”
Bleacher Report draft grade = B- “Jaylen Brown is one of the best athletes in this class, and general manager Danny Ainge will hope he’s a nice complement to Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder. His long-term ability to drain jumpers and thrive in transition could ease the pressure on established Beantown players—free-agent Evan Turner will not be one of them, after this pick—and he could develop into a defensive stud.
But this is still a risky selection, given Brown’s trouble focusing, poor ball-handling skills and overall lack of readiness to compete at a high level. Right now, he is a physical prospect who doesn’t have the skilled part of the game down pat.
Given Boston’s desire to contend right away, this screams that Ainge couldn’t get a deal done and had to settle.”
SI: “they selected Jaylen Brown a few spots higher than most experts had predicted. Couple Brown’s underwhelming year at Cal with Boston’s failure to make a trade for a star after six months of rumors, and this whole feels like a failure.”
Yahoo: “What you can possibly criticize are the draft choices while he bides his time: Jaylen Brown is a home run swing that could bring Boston an All-Star, but the athlete has his drawbacks at his young age.”
something called gamblingsites.org:
Walterfootball.com:
“What was expected to be a night of wheeling and dealing for Danny Ainge and the Celtics turned out to be anticlimactic as Boston ended up keeping six of its eight draft picks. I think Jaylen Brown was a reach at No. 3, especially when Kris Dunn and Buddy Hield were both on the board.”
David Aldridge: A”inge went feast/famine with Cal’s Jaylen Brown with the third pick, and he was right to verbally smack Cs fans that booed the choice when it was announced Thursday. No one has any idea what an 18-year-old kid will or won’t become, and at the moment of his greatest joy to date, it’s so selfish and unbecoming to boo him.”
There were plenty of sites that said it was a good pick also, and the reaction to Brown was partly that a lot of people thought that pick would be used to trade for Jimmy Butler or someone else, but clearly a lot of people didn’t like the pick.
If it’s not here, I don’t listen to it. 😉
Here, though, massive did give Ainge a lot of guff over it.
To be fair – I am sure there are many many more examples of guys who were athletic but were “bad at basketball” that failed. Just saying that the thought process that went into Jaylen Brown seems pretty similar to the thought process that went into drafting Knox. Young kid, uber-talented, bad situation for him to show his skills, iffy at non-scoring things, but should respond well to good coaching/development.
I am forever on Team Optimism, so I can make arguments for just about anyone. Bargnani really tested me by 2 games into that season though.
@ 2
So, who is the guy that the knicks should have taken that makes Knox horrible blunder? Please don’t say Mikal.
When you’re drafting kids, one year removed from high school, it’s a crap shoot. Athleticism and potential should absolutely be a huge part of the analysis.
If his stroke, athleticism and other eyeball traits shouldn’t be considered, should they even watch players, or just look at box scores?
Meanwhile I am sort of on the fence about whether I want Kanter to opt in or opt out. I’m not totally clear on whether he is a net positive or negative for the tank — his work on 3 point shooting might actually push him into the net positive area if he can shoot it at league average level. His gigantic expiring might also actually be of some value at the deadline, although who knows what we would have to take on with him (with attached assets of course!).
I remember Jaylen Brown as a super athletic but raw 2/3 type who could play defense and run the court and finish but couldn’t shoot or dribble.
Doesn’t seem like an apt comparison to Knox to me.
How can Kanter think he will beat his salary on the open market? I just don’t get it. Unless he really just super duper wants a long term deal for some reason, even if it is barely more than he is making in a single year? Or maybe some team really likes him somehow?
For instance, we could take on Marvin Williams + Jeremy Lamb (~$21MM in 2018-19, Lamb expires, then Williams is due $15MM in 2019-20) for Kanter, save MJ some $, and pick up a lottery protected 2019 1st.
Or we could take on Mahinmi ($16MM due in 2019-20) to help Washington try and avoid the tax and also sign some players, of course adding a 2019 or 2020 lottery protected 1st.
Or perhaps Jon Leuer + Langston Galloway (~$17MM due in 2019-20) from Detroit, plus a pick.
I mean, the chances of a New York Knicks FO punting the 2019-20 season seems pretty tiny, but there is plenty of opportunity to do so.
I dunno, maybe someone throws the full nontaxpayer MLE at him? Under that contract he’d make back the $ he opts out of after the 2nd year, then probably has roughly 2 years at $19MM more guaranteed? Or maybe he knows he might be traded as part of some team’s salary dump at the deadline and wants to choose where he goes?
the scouting reports are really sort of similar (see above) but the point is – a guy who is super young for his class, toolsy but not “good at basketball” went to an organization that planned on developing him “the right way”. Not sure the Knicks are that team, but it’s nice to see them actually talking about it.
How can Kanter think he will beat his salary on the open market? I just don’t get it. Unless he really just super duper wants a long term deal for some reason, even if it is barely more than he is making in a single year? Or maybe some team really likes him somehow?
I have never thought the chances of an opt-out were serious, like not even 10%. I’ve assumed Kanter’s agent is trying as hard as he can to cajole the Knicks into a longer term deal or get a whisper that someone else might bite. Why not wait? This also makes sense because Knicks, but I highly doubt he’s getting confidence that another team would pay him enough. I’m guess something like 4/$52 is the absolute minimum he would take and I don’t think that’s available. No way does he take 4/$40 which does not even get him the MLE + opting in. And I don’t think anyone will pay him that this year.
I was one of the guys who trashed the jaylen brown pick but as bad as the narrative was surrounding him before the draft… he was still better than knox was….
and brown is a good example of what happens when you can overcome some of the deficiencies that they showed as a freshman…. the guy shoots 65% at the line in college… shoots 65% at the line in the pro’s and for whatever reason.. brad stevens gives him good juju and he’s a 40% 3p shooter…. on top of that his 2p shooting and a/to INCREASED as soon as he turned pro…
I have no idea what they did or what they do but when something like that happens it’s pretty weird because it doesn’t happen often… but there are instances where it does occur….
and that’s not to say it can’t happen to knox… when drafting players what matters after they get drafted is just as important as everything that occurred right before it… you have to figure out if they are capable of eventually playing at an nba level … and it’s not as simple as he definitely can or definitely cannot… it’s an unknown but something that you can attempt to gauge… which is why I generally include some sort of risk analysis in my projections….
if you have a program that has shown to improve 3p and 2p shooting consistently… and can mitigate against guys who can’t really handle the ball well… that should give you some more authority to draft guys who have question marks in those areas….
and that’s the hope…. and it’s the same thing with frank as well as knox..but absent any clear evidence that is what you are relying on… and consistently relying on hope is not a good strategy doing anything in life… which is why it’s better to rely on production(ie. evidence) to inform your decisions….
We don’t even know if Jaylen Brown is a particularly good NBA player
I guess his stats are still sort of meh, but the dude is a starter and plays major minutes for an ECF team. His versatility is part of what makes Boston’s defense so good, and his 3p shooting is pretty impressive. In the playoffs he also basically took any mismatch (ie Korver, Bellineli) into the post and basically played them off the court.
I think if Kevin Knox turns into Jaylen Brown, we would all be pretty happy.
Jaylen Brown was a very shitty pick at 3rd overall but apparently Boston’s player development system is top notch so that makes up for a lot of it. I would have taken Jamal Murray 3rd overall, and that’s looking like that right decision today.
Iman Shumpert’s workout got him drafted 17th overall, and it looked pretty bad initially but his advanced stats were pretty good and he was actually a starting shooting guard in the NBA for a couple of years. If he never tore his ACL we may have never traded him. He also went from “I can’t shoot it” to a 33% career shooter from 3, which isn’t the best but it’s respectable. He wasn’t a bad pick at #17.
The thing about the Knox and his shooting is that a lot of people believe he will be a better shooter in the NBA than he was in college because of his mechanics (and he was UK’s only real threat from deep). Maybe the workout helped his case more than it hurt it.
***DISCLAIMER ***
I do not believe THJ is a good defender. I think he is an average 1 position defender at best, which is why he can’t play SF. But he’s not a total loss on that end as long as he’s guarding SG’s
The thought just hit me that at some point it’s possible will be able to see a defensively capable starting 5 of KOQ/KP/Knox/THJ/Ntilikina. That is an intriguing, long and rangy unit. Add to that guys like Mitchell, Williams, and Thomas- we have the best defensive foundation on the team since Van Gundy. If Knox turns out to be a better offensive player than he was at Kentucky, then we might just have a growing team to root for as opposed to waiting for something Knicksy to happen. Ha! We may be able to retire that word!
Imagine the possibilities
LOL
In all seriousness though, I think we already have a solid youth foundation to build on because they’re all coachable and willin yo play defense.
Baby steps..
OK, I’m over it. Let’s go young guys. Can’t wait to see the Summer team.
Just don’t do anything stupid wrt Kanter or O’Quinn pretty please.
Also, now that I’m more aware of the new lottery odds for next season, I’m not averse to re-signing O’Quinn at a big one year rate or reasonable 3 or 4 year rate.
While I am all about Mikal Bridges, there at least is a legit chance that Knox works out. I’d be thrilled if it does. He’s one of those dudes where, if he does work, he’ll work really well.
By the way, is Colin Sexton, George Hill, Lebron James, Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson a good team?
I have no problem with the Knicks seeing more potential in one young dude than another and swinging for the fences. Especially if not impressed with the guys in the same bracket. I mean, Zhaire Smith, Mikal and Miles, etc., don’t scream crazy potential.
I’m not happy with the choice more because it was lost season giving us a #9 pick in an 8-pick lottery, not because of someone else we should have picked.
And I’m sure we can go all day with the “X was athletic and a reach, and look how he did well/badly!”
And by the way, even WE are like 90% wrong when it comes to analyzing prospects, so what the f anyway. I don’t want to quote anyone, but I’ve looked over draft-night threads, and… well…
@27 the question is moot. I’m assuming they’ll pull off a S&T to LA or Philly.
“Names i will be OK hearing, in order:
Okafor
Russell
Mudiay
Cauley-Stein
Porzingis
Winslow”
“I think I actually like Kemba better than Jimmer despite the fact that…”
“If Curry and Evans are gone by the 8th, and we can’t trade up to get Rubio then I say just take Lawson at 8.”
And the kicker, in a draft with Kawhi, Klay, Kemba, and Butler: “Again moving Fields or Douglas for anything short of Valanciunas or one of the top 3 players would be a mistake.”
Maybe re: prospect predictions in general, but certainly not Knick prognostications. If we were 90% wrong they would make the EC finals every year.
Not for nothing but is Shumpert’s career really a bad outcome for where he was drafted?
Also, Shumpert had promise. I believe just about every Knick fan liked him his rookie year. Shumpert had some bad luck though. Drafted in the lock out season so he was not allowed to use team facilities or coaching until the lockout ended. So Knicks staff had no access to him until training camp, which was shorter that year. Then he blew out his knee at the end of the season against the Heat. So he missed that off season and half of that next season too. After that surgery he wasn’t the same player but he probably could have improved still but at this point he’s 2 years in and now he’s part of the Knicks free fall from playoff team to lottery team.
None of this is to make excuses for Shump or to say we shouldn’t be worried about Knox developing. We should. But if Shump wasn’t drafted during a lock out season and didn’t have a serious knee injury after his rookie year, he might have been a very different player. Not just because the knee injury robbed him of athleticism but also because the timing of it along with the timing of when he was drafted meant that he effectively lost two off seasons of development and those first few off seasons are probably the most important ones as far as development goes for a young NBA player.
Let’s get over the Knox pick. What intrigues me is that a year ago those predicting the 2018 draft had Mitchel Robinson as a consensus lottery pick. Obviously forgoing college hurt him financially but he could be the steal of the draft. So they took the “safe” pick with the 1st round pick and they swung for the fences with the 2nd round pick. I kind of like that draft strategy. Now the difficult work starts, getting the team to gel without KP on the floor.
Agreed. But still, if we were in charge of choosing the picks, I feel pretty confident that at least I would have pretty uniformly chosen worse than the Knicks the past 10 drafts or so.
Enes the Menace took all of two 3-pters last season, and is a 29% shooter on 109 career attempts, so it’s hard to imagine him becoming a league-average shooter overnight. That, combined with his ghastly PnR defense, suggest that he’ll be a slight positive for the tank.
Even so, I’d rather he opt out. That way we can give the center minutes to Noah (to rebuild a little of his trade value) and Robinson. Those two will probably be godawful, but that’s good for the tank. If we need another C at some point during the season, there will be PLENTY of teams happy to dump their excess bigs into our cap space.
Having Kanter’s vacated cap space also allows us to absorb salary dumps for teams that are trying to avoid the luxury tax.
I hope Kanter opts out and we offer Jabari Parker a 1 year prove it deal if/when Milwaukee renounces his rights.
“And get over next year’s shitty pick, too! You can’t keep dwelling on the past! Nor the future!”
this site.. as well as other knicks sites… is heavily informed by the popular draft sites on the draft process…. and plus the majority don’t really pay attention until the season is over… as a result you get a lot of herding and ‘conventional wisdom’ like ayton is the consensus #1 pick when he probably shouldn’t be…
I am pretty sure if you take the best analysis from each of the other knick sites you’ll get better results than the knicks draft picks… but even outside of that… the process for identifying good players for the knicks organization in the draft process also extends outside of that…. like is it really a coincidence that we drafted a guy like knox when we handed out a crazy contract for th2 also?
Knox was projected to go around 12th until a few weeks before the draft when he climbed up to the top 10. But its not like he was some late first round/second round prospect that catapulted to the top after a few workouts. He was right below that top tier and made his way up to the top of the second tier. People can complain all they want but he wasn’t a reach at 9. That much is factorial.
I don’t trust Perry but he isn’t completely incompetent like Mills has proven to be. IMO we shouldn’t group those moves together since I don’t think Perry would’ve signed THJr to that deal or given Ron Baker that contract.
I’ve always defended Shumpert among my group of friends. He definitely wasn’t the same player after his ACL tear. He definitely got the bad side of variance with his string of injuries.
But at the same time, I don’t think he was ever going to put it all together to become a complete player.
STAT looked pretty spry in the Big 3. Is a comeback out of the question?
High level athletic ability doesn’t mean much if the player development is poor, the work ethic isn’t there, and the basketball IQ isn’t very high.
A high basketball IQ, good work ethic, and good player development will allow you to reach your potential, but it will be capped if you weren’t also blessed with a high level of athletic ability.
What you want is high level athletic ability, a good work ethic, a high basketball IQ, good player development. and good health. That maximizes the chances there will be a lot of development.
I would say Shumpert had pretty good potential, but the first day I read he was hanging out partying with JR Smith and being arrogant at practice, I was already worried. Then the injuries took away some of the athleticism with capped him further. What happened in his case has very little to do with what will happen to Knox, Frank, or other any other players that either went very far or that never developed at all.
So if Fultz was actually being shopped on draft night, the Sixers were looking for a top-5 pick for:
2017 #1
2018 #10
2018 #26
2019 Sacramento pick (#2-10, likely)
…with no guarantee that Doncic would be there when they picked. As enviable as Philly’s roster situation is, I would be projectile vomiting if my franchise made that trade.
Noel, Okafor, Fultz… seems like the Sixers have a thing for selling low.
Most of the mocks had Knox going 9-11. I wish we picked in the 3-5 range, but we were too good last year. I know that ain’t easy for some of us but it is what it is. So yeah, let’s get over it.
Any team with LeBron James is a good team.
The Jaylen Brown counter-argument is interesting…gives me a little bit of hope, at least. But if you look at the history of picking guys who had good workouts/interviews and pedestrian (at best) stats, you’re looking at mostly busts. We can’t afford busts, because we have so little talent. So I probably would have chosen Mikal, who had the highest floor (I think), or SGA, who had the next-highest floor and higher ceiling. I might be influenced by knowing the trade that was available for Mikal…but to me it was a close call between those two. Yesterday I said SGA, today, Mikal. Tough call.
I mean, I really wanted Porter Jr, but that’s because I didn’t know he had a degenerative disk disease.
Either way, I will be rooting for Knox to surprise me, but I doubt he’ll reach his best case, and if he does, it’s still kind of empty calories unless he magically becomes focused on the defensive end. Man, I’m still depressed about this.
Can’t believe the Celtics got a lottery talent at #27 and will likely have two top-ten picks next year. We are like 1000 light years behind that team.
I think we need to take our lumps now and, after our mistake contracts expire, rent out our cap space for picks. We don’t have nearly enough good assets, even if the players we have perform reasonably well this year.
So, who is your guy that you think makes knox such a shitty pick?
I was criticizing the attitude that says, “What’s done is done, too bad, get over it.”
We got the same bullshit after the Bargnani trade, when people were like, “He’s a Knick now so you ought to hope he learns to play defense someday. Be optimistic!”
Nah.
So if Kanter opts out, Knicks can sign and trade him to another team to help facilitate and take back contracts and assets? Does this still happen with this CBA?
We got a lottery pick at 36…for similar reasons. I wouldn’t be shocked if he were a starter in 2 years.
We also will likely have a top 5 pick next year as well. Yes, it would be better to have 2…but not all is lost!
I mean, in all the multiverse there’s at least one version of the future where Knox and Mitchell Robinson become very good starters, KP comes back healthy and strong and ready to hold down the 5, Frank grows into an acceptable PG on offense and an absolute monster on D, and we trade Kanter for future picks once he opts in.
I admit it doesn’t feel like we live in that particular world….
The Memphis pick is at least top 8 protected but we really need to get a top 3 pick to try and bridge the gap.
Naturally, I’d way rather be in the Celtics position than the Knicks position, but there are only so many talented players you can play and more importantly keep. Talented young players want both minutes and to get paid. If they don’t get either, they will leave. We need a better starting 5 than they have and a solid 6-9. If their 10-15 is massively better than ours I don’t care that much. It won’t be easy because they have so many more terrific young prospects to develop and choose from, but there are some diminishing returns on all those players and picks. We could wind up with the 2 best players even though they have more very good players. Our 2 best players would get a lot of minutes and many of their better players woud be parked on the bench.
@55
What I envy about the Celtics situation right now isn’t per se the depth or the amount of prospects they have, because it’s all sort of irrelevant as long as the Warriors exist unless one of them or more becomes a real superstar. It’s more that they have many, many chances to miss.
We’re 100% all in on Porzingis, and now to an extent Ntilikina and Knox, turning out to be very good. The Celtics won’t be happy if Tatum or Brown or Rozier never develop, but they still have two potential great picks next year, now Robert Williams and flexibility to make moves with those assets. The value of the 8-15 guys is not really on the court, but as assets + flexibility etc.
So yeah, the Knicks could conceivable end up with the best core in a very unlikely scenario but there’s 0 margin for error, specially when KP gets paid, while the Celtics have a gigantic margin of error to work with and move in whichever way they need to based on who develops, who declines or busts etc.
The Joker’s getting paid to the tune of 146.5 million for 5 years. You know KP and his brother Janis are taking notice.
@56
That sums it up. They have more chances to strike gold and will certainly accumulate more gold, but maybe we’ll get lucky and get the 2 biggest nuggets.
I’ll grant you the Bargnani trade because it was f’n stupid and set us back a decade. This is much different. You might convince me that one or two players were a better choice, but he was tabbed to go in that range. Let’s just hope he’s not Mike Sweetney. But even then, the players drafted behind him, were, for the most part, decent pieces. They weren’t world-beaters.
I hope they notice his rebounding and assist numbers while they’re at it.
Knox isn’t nearly as athletic as Jaylon Brown. The comp for Knox is Tatum- both high level recruits who looked solid if unspectacular athletically but showed promise as genuine three level scorers. Tatum was a little better across the board but his stats really don’t jump out at you. Knox is about six months younger than Tatum relative to his class so that mitigates the difference a bit. The thing is Tatum went from a meh college 3 point shooter to a great NBA shooter- 34% to 43%- you can’t expect Knox to make that same astronomical leap (certainly not right away). If Tatum shoots league average from three he’s okay but hardly anything special- not a great rebounder or playmaker. Knox really HAS to become a great shooter to have value. I think he probably becomes at least a solid scorer (better than league average TS% on decent usage) but he needs to be better than solid to justify the pick.
The Warriors are vulnerable as early as 2020. I think Green is going to have a monster contract year and end up with the supermax option, which the Warriors will decline to offer ($40M for a 30-year-old Green would be roster suicide). Their best bench players are already old and getting older. Curry and Durant are 30 and cannot be reasonably expected to improve, much less stay where their athletic primes took them.
If I’m the Celtics or Sixers, I’m continuing to search for the third superstar in the draft and preparing myself for when the Warriors finally slide, which will happen. Dynastic teams are not static entities. Even Jordan’s Bulls needed a lot of luck to land Dennis Rodman (trade for the inimitable Will Purdue) and therefore another threepeat.
@62 – I don’t know – seems like money is no object, and not keeping together a dynastic team is rare, even with the predictable declines and overpaying for production. It just isn’t done very often…anyone think of an example?
Edit: ironically, the only one that immediately comes to mind is the Knicks and Ewing, but it wasn’t exactly a dynasty, and there were other factors in the mix as well.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/2012.html
So, who is your guy that you think makes knox such a long shot to justify?
I think the Warriors are going to try to convince Draymond to get a slightly smaller deal and it’s probably going to be messy. He doesn’t strike me as the type of player who will take a lower deal, but if Thompson accepts a smaller deal to keep the core together and then Green doesn’t, it could shake a lot of things up, specially if the new Lebron team is a true contender. I’d say 2019 is definitely still theirs to lose specially if Houston cannot make upgrades, but after that I expect a decline to post 2014 Duncan Spurs level.
I think it’s fair to say that breaking up a dynasty doesn’t happen very often because dynasties don’t happen often.
In ’94, Jordan retires and they ship Horace Grant to Orlando (where he becomes the 3rd star on another exceptional, dynasty-worthy team). If Jordan doesn’t get busted for gambling and secretly and summarily suspended by David Stern, who knows what happens.
In ’05, the Lakers refuse to give Shaq all of the money (despite 3 chips and another Finals appearance) and he leaves for Miami Malone’s still good but too injured and old to continue playing, and they suck in 2005.
In ’12, the Mavs cap their championship season by trying to sign-and-trade Chandler for Dwight, eventually giving Chandler away to the Knicks to free up cap space. Their ORtg drops from 8th to 22nd and they get swept in the first round.
@64
Yeah, but they hadn’t won anything yet (and still haven’t) and they didn’t realize how good Harden was anyway. To be a dynasty you kind of actually need to win, and to know where those wins came from….
I’ll give you the ’05 Lakers. Seems like personality conflict is one reason to break up a dynasty. Not sure about the Mavs, though, since many of the key players were near the end of their careers. Kidd, Marion…and Chandler was notoriously fragile (which we experienced). But you’re probably right – they could have competed another year, maybe two, so I guess that counts.
Speaking of which, I don’t know how many here consider Xs and Os but I’ve looked at Fizdale’s offense. He really wants to use everyone interchangeably on offense.
I didn’t hate the pick as much as some (I do think Knox will be a good scorer as long as he tightens his handle) but Mikal Bridges was a safer pick. Push come to shove I’d have probably picked SGA.
Wait, Jowles…you think Jordan was secretely banished from the NBA? The biggest player in the history of the NBA at the peak of his playing (and marketing powers) who was a cash machine for the NBA was secretely banned from the NBA?
Dang dude, never thought you were the tin foil type.
Every time I hear about a player getting picked ahead of another player because of how they performed against each other in a workout I think of how Michael Jordan took Kwame Brown because he allegedly wiped the floor with Tyson Chandler in a one-on-one battle.
I think Cuban really thought he could retool the 2010 team. That was before the new CBA and Dallas had the biggest payroll but he let Chandler walk to create cap space for Dwight which didn’t happen. I think Cuban in hindsight wishes he had just resigned Chandler (the contract we gave Chandler he basically lived up to). Mavs probably don’t beat The Heat in a repeat but that same team could have gotten to the finals again I believe.
.591
.644
.623
Those are Mikal Bridges’ eFG% numbers in his three college seasons.
.633
.676
.655
Those are Mikal Bridges TS% numbers in his three college seasons.
You don’t have to hope and dream on Mikal Bridges, he has been a good player ever since he walked on the court at Villanova. He would have been a very safe pick.
I am totally with him on this … Jordan had helped rebuild the league, capitalizing on the popularity of Magic and Bird and taking it to new heights, making it an international brand. You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to buy into Stern (an adept businessman) recognizing the threat Jordan’s exposure for gambling would represent. There was a lot of buzz about it at the time – it wasn’t some secret no one knew about.
Just curious, and not being facetious.
Do you believe that you can pick college players just looking at their stats?
It was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but if you’re the head of the world’s premier basketball league, trying to preempt Congress from investigating the world’s most popular athlete for illegal gambling, maybe a quiet sitdown in a secure room is the best way of going about it–
So his dad getting murdered wasn’t the reason why he took the hiatus?
I don’t know. Seems awfully tin foil hat. The logical story of him wanting to do something else because of his Dad’s murder (which could have been caused by his gambling…that I would believe)…seems much more likely than some secret banishment. Also, timeline wise it doesn’t really make sense. Jordan came back right before the playoffs after almost 2 years. If there as a ban, why not just make it for the full 2 seasons?
With 100% accuracy? Of course not. But I believe that a team that blindly selects players who have extraordinary college stats will be in a far better position than a team that drafts based on scouting, combine measurements and other general eyetest nonsense.
“Do u even watch the games bro” is a pretty tired argument.
This Mikal Bridges character was very good at throwing the ball into the basket over a very long period of time over three separate seasons, in a non-small sample size. I’m going to go ahead and assume that he is pretty skilled when it comes to throwing the ball into the basket, and that this large statistical sample we have is a more significant data point than a 3-0n-3 workout. I’m not saying you can solely scout a player based on statistics, but… well, there is an awful lot of evidence that Mikal Bridges can shoot the ball, and your beloved eye test suggests he’s a strong defender too.
But dat workout doe!
@74
So, Bridges is your pick, and knicks are absolutely nuts for picking knox.
You can’t have it both ways. If you don’t want to be the 8th seed, you can’t pick guaranteed mediocrity instead of taking a little risk for potential gain.
If Mikal and Knox were trading on the NYSE, I think it’s obvious who would be priced higher. Now, if your 70 years old, and not looking for big gains, you’d take Mikal. But if you’re looking to make a big leap, Knox is the clear choice.
This is a basketball team I root for, not life or death. Why be so risk averse?
Why not pick players based on big sample sizes instead of bullshit 3-on-3 sessions?
Strawman.
I ain’t said they’re nuts for picking Knox. I’m merely expressing my opinion that I don’t really like the pick, and would have preferred Bridges. It’s okay really, you don’t have to get this worked up about it. This is a place we come to for the purpose of talking about basketball and sharing our opinions. There are plenty of other blogs you can go to if you want rose-colored pollyanna fanboi rah-rah bullshit.
That is a striking statement.
The metrics in basketball are a million miles from pinning down all the variables that go into any boxscore. I think you’ve read Moneyball too many times.
Knox is not some guy off the street that joined a pick-up game and had a good day.
I’m worked up?
I’m fanboi rah-rah?
Is this some sort of alternate universe?
All i’m doing is challenging the people here who trash the knicks because that’s what they do – even when they’re wrong.
Why not trade the farm for Eddy Curry? You know his nickname is Baby Shaq, right?
Why not sign Jerome James to a $30M deal? Why assume that he’ll play like he always had, and not like the borderline star he played like in those two playoff series? Salary cap space: use it or lose it!
Why not sign Amar’e? If you sign him, maybe you get LeBron and a dynasty! If you don’t sign him, no way you attract other stars to come play here.
Why not trade literally everyone for Carmelo? It’s highly unlikely that any of them will be good at basketball, so why not get a .150 WS48 chucker on a NTC megamax contract?
Why not give up a first and two seconds for Andrea Bargnani? No guarantee that the 1RP will be good, and 2RPs practically grow on trees. You know what doesn’t grow on trees? Hyper-skilled stretch-five 7-footers who can score at will from any area on the court!
Why not trade cost-controlled, efficient Willy Hernangomez for two future picks? They could be the next Jokic or Draymond!
Come on, Knicks fans — live a little!
There you go.
Lucky 7’s – be my baby!!!
Hoola, not for nothing but the people here who regularly “trash the Knicks” are right a whole hell of a lot more often than they’re wrong. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but this team has mostly sucked elephant dick for 20 years.
So, you were being facetious, like I figured.
Wrong. Without Googling it, I’d have to say it’s more than 20 years. Sure feels like it, anyway.
Right. They constantly, consistently, dependably, predictably make bad decisions. But Knox was a worthwhile gamble, especially considering the needs of this team.
What if Knox turns out to be good? Was it a bad pick?
Why not make a bet that Tim Hardaway Jr’s defensive improvement wasn’t a mirage and give him much more money than anyone else was offering? 🙂
Wasn’t Miles Bridges the guy Knox allegedly tore up in the workout?
The whole making decisions on the basis of private workouts is pretty stupid. It’s not basketball. Why make decisions about draft picks by choosing the smallest possible sample of data? I don’t know if that’s how it went down but if it was that’s disappointing.
Also, Jock Landale went undrafted. What more sign do you need that NBA teams know nothing about anything?
That’s called conflation. Do you work for Fox news?
Bad process/good result does happen sometimes, and given the limitations of Steve Mills’ brain that is probably what we’re going to have to hope for a lot of the time.
Holy shit I forgot we gave up two 2nds in that trade also. Now that’s what I call the art of the deal!
And we didn’t even get Mexico to pay for Bargnani
Does this make sense? Why not offer Randle a good contract on day 1 of FA and force the Lakers to match and eat cap so they have less $ for LBJ, PG? Or would they have enough anyway?
“But if you’re looking to make a big leap, Knox is the clear choice.”
Because he allegedly killed in a 3-3 workout? Umm, I guess we’ll find out. I hope he turns into an all star, but based on past results that will be a surprise.
Read the SNY piece about Kanter, and had to laugh – if the Bucks really are interested, it means they signed Monroe, packaged a first to get rid of him, and then want to sign a slightly better version of the same player.
Now that’s a franchise we need to be trading with….!
My @97 post was pending Kanter opt out. Important context.
The rest of @81 has been picked apart already, but it should be noted that this argument is just as deserving of the board’s collective ridicule. In this analogy, Knox isn’t some buy-low growth story.
We were the price-setters! And we set the market for “#9 pick in the 2018 draft” at “Kevin Knox”
Given the choice between two equally attainable players, we went ahead and picked the one with penny stock fundamentals.
Must we desecrate the noble elephant to make a point?
Hey hoolahoop, are you mentally challenged or just an asshole? It’s important that I know the difference.
Have you ever played 3-3 full court with good players? I have.
If nothing else, what that tells me is that Knox may be good at running the floor in the open court. If true, that’s a great piece of information answering my biggest concern with him. Low motor.
Stockholm syndrome is a mental illness. He’s been so thoroughly beaten down that through self-enforced thought policing, he’s convinced himself that we got great value by spending the #9 pick in a deep draft on an 18-year-old who’s never produced and is unlikely to outperform even his rookie contract
I want it known that I dominate in 3-on-3. I also have a pretty serious wingspan – serious upside, is what I’m saying.
Forget that my college stats were 4.3 ppg on 41% shooting. Get me a workout and I’ll show you what I got! I’ll take Miles Bridges to school!
“I’ve played 3 on 3 full court with good players” is just about the saddest authority-grab I’ve ever heard
I swear this is 2005 and I’m on a baseball thread debating the clutchiness of David Eckstein
This is what people say when they:
– have no argument, or
– have low self esteem.
. . . and stop watching Fox news. It’s bad for your soul.
@ glidepath
Who’s your guy in the draft at #9?
rama, king of superfluous poppycock
And who’s your #9?
I thought he was injecting a moronic debate with some much-needed pith.
Making the apolitical political while attacking someone’s self-esteem on the other hand… Idk hoola, not exactly zen
Obviously, as it should be clear from my entire argument, I’d go with the guy who’s projected to outperform his contract. Bridges. Like how I said given the choice between bridges and a penny stock, we chose the penny stock…
If we wanted a more high-variance option, I would’ve also been happy with a trade-up or trade-down. I hope Knox exceeds expectations and thrives with the Knicks, but in my opinion, there was no logic to that pick. Worst of both worlds
Ok I have my answer, thanks.
I realize now that I didn’t actually include “Mikal” in my original post. That’s my bad, and led to some unnecessary sniping on my part. But yeah, I was writing with Mikal in mind
@ glidepath
Shocked you picked Mikal Bridges.
Nothing to do with all the comments here. You did your in-depth analysis and came up with Mikal Bridges as the obvious choice, and kevin knox a horrible pick.
Trade up. Trade down. That’s brilliant. You should be working the phones for the knicks.
This is what gets me about this site. And we all know it. Well, most of us probably do.
People talk like they know what their talking about, but don’t have a fucking clue. A few minutes of youtube, a few mock draft opinions, and reading knickerbloggers can make someone a basketball authority. Let me repeat that last part – “read what other knickerbloggers think”. That’s very very important. Then, become so sure of themselves (or unsure), that they attack people who disagree.
I submit. You guys are right. Knox was a terrible pick. I think Mikal Bridges was the obvious choice. I’m in your group-think club. Please like me.
If you’re big into banal, overused platitudes, here’s one more for you: “sarcasm is the protest of the weak”
(In case it needs further spelling out, the reason you’re lashing out is that basic arguments on a knicks forum don’t need to be earth-shattering to be “light-years ahead” of the New York Knicks, one of the least successful franchises across all major sports over the past 20 years. Defending their actions with “I’ve played 3 on 3 full court with good players” is an incredibly, laughably weak argument)
I’m skeptical about Knox but there have been reports about the Knicks being interested in him for a few months now. So them picking only based on a 3 vs 3 isn’t true at all.
Also Perry said they were scouting him all year long at the press conference.
I’m more encouraged by that news than by hoola’s 3 on 3 expertise
No logic to the pick?
Hmm lets see.
1) 2nd youngest player in the draft who went to probably the best college program in the country when it comes to recruiting top NBA talent.
2) More of a 3/4 than a 2/3, which is what Mikal is. Also, a lot younger so higher upside. You can argue this but logically he does have more upside. Team is in talent acquisition mode, looking for home runs or triples, not singles and doubles.
3) Beat the crap out of the other bridges in a workout.
4) Other high ceiling foward (our position of need) has a scary medical history (Porter Jr.). So Knox is a high risk as far as bust potential but is not a high risk as far as injury concern. If he doesn’t work out its because he sucked/didn’t work hard, not because his back was broken. I’d rather we miss a pick because he didn’t develop than miss a pick bc of injuries.
So there was definitely logic behind the pick. Outside of the bridges, Knox was the highest PF/SF prospect out there not named Porter Jr who was in our range. Considering one of the bridges was a red shirted senior who is more of a 2/3 than a 3/4 and the other one got his butt kicked by Knox AND Knox was in that top tier of fowards, the pick was not illogical. I swear if DraftExpress or whatever had Knox slated at 8 or 9, two months ago most of you would not give a shit.
Mikal has a hitch in his shot now.
https://streamable.com/ucfyy
I feel a better about taking Knox over him.
Decent, stats based scouting report on Knox:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGzu7Jq-RiI
Highlights:
Some things are fixable like defensive awareness.
Low offensive efficiency is a bit weird. He is a better shooter off the dribble, but worse in catch and shoot.
Some things sound downright bad. He cannot go left. My unscientific guess – not being able to go left is not something you can fix at 19. Probably too late.
By the time he reaches his entirely theoretical upside, he’ll be up for his second contract and we’ll be paying for it
And before anyone gets the wrong idea, I said there’s no logic to picking that prospect at #9
Knox has a nice frame, but he’s slow and lacks ball skills (passing, dribbling, even finishing). The Brown/Tatum comparison are off IMO because Knox isn’t really a 3—he’s a 4, barring some major athletic and skill improvements (not impossible at his age). His most projectable skill is shooting: ideally, he can eventually come off screens in Paul George-type actions. I think Otto Porter is a better comparison: he’s bigger and relies more on shooting/size versus ball skills. To be valuable on offense, Knox really needs to shoot, and even then, I’m not sure how efficient he’ll be with his issues finishing.
On defense, I want to see how mobile/switchable he is. If he can move his feet and show some team defense awareness/instincts, he could be valuable there with his frame. If he can’t guard on the perimeter and doesn’t play good team defense, it’s hard to see him being more than an average defender.
Ultimately, I think he’s upside is overrated. What’s his best realistic outcome? Tobias Harris? Otto Porter? Those are fine players, but if that’s the upside, I don’t think the risk is worth it.
You know, nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to post here. This is a blog where people post their opinions about things Knick-related. If this is too overstimulating for you, or you think the people here are dumbasses, feel free to go somewhere else. This prolly wouldn’t be a very exciting blog if everybody just said “well, you can never tell what’s going to happen in the future so we’ll just see how it pans out and not express any opinions about it” all the time. People make an argument, then people make a counterargument, and it’s kind of fun! And the people here are thoughtful, and have a good sense of humor, which is why I’ve been coming here since the Isiah days.
You’re wrong about the groupthink thing. A lot of us here come to similar conclusions about things because we approach things with a statistical bent. This is really the only blog in existence that caters to people like us. Up on the banner, the first thing it says underneath “Knickerblogger” is “statistical analysis.” This is a stats-based blog. So you’re probably going to meet some resistance when you pooh-pooh statistical analysis and try to rebut it with your own experience of playing 3-on-3 basketball.
Gallinari. Reminds me quite a bit of The Rooster when I watch him. If he can shoulder a bit more usage than him and score on similar efficiency that’s definitely worth the risk.
This is something that can 100% be improved upon for a kid still 2 plus years from being able to legally buy a drink. Of the concerns I have about him, this isn’t one of them.
I think it’s unlikely that either Mikal or Knox sustains their college TS% in their first year in the pros because the 3 point line is longer and they will be facing better defenders, but I think it’s more likely Knox at least stays close.
Knox’s shot and shot selection are starting from a mediocre level and he’s a lot younger. He’s going to get better and that may offset some of the downside that will come from the longer 3 point line and better defense.
Mikal’s shot and shot are already at a very high level.
I fully expect Mikal to have a much better TS% next year, but the gap may start to narrow. I also expect Mikal’s usage to drop more than Knox’s. Knox can score with reasonable efficiency in more ways.
A lot of Gallinari’s value comes from his sky-high free throw rate. Knox is a good free throw shooter, so he would benefit from going hard to the hole more often and stop relying so much on his floater/jumper. Bumping up his free throw rate is one way Knox could really improve his efficiency.
@117
Like
I bet Greg Popovich could pick out the player with the better overall efficiency from watching the 3 on 3 game.
I’m definitely team optimism no more. I do learn from coming here. The vast consensus here was instant revulsion on Bargnani, Rose and a ton of other moves. Let’s face it. NCAA Basketball is a good laboratory for NBA talent. Knox’s weaknesses jump out. So, on a lot of levels you’re going to have a hard time convincing people around here to disregard stuff like how he played over an entire season at Kentucky. Has it happened before? Terrible in college, good in the pros? Not much probably.
I will say that coach Fiz had as much say as anyone, probably, and wanted to draft a big physical three. So, that gives me some confidence. He hasn’t shown himself to be inept yet and perhaps deserves the benefit of the doubt.
But no, not really on the fence, this probably won’t go well. Hope I’m wrong…
@127
This so much. Nobody is a clairvoyant here, we’re all wrong a lot of times. We all get stupidly heated many times over arguments discussing a team we’re all passionate about. I’ve probably went against arguments from people like Strato for example a billion times already and yet we keep it respectful and well, it is what it is, passionate fans arguing about stuff.
But how can you expect your opinion to be respected as such when all you offer is “who would you have picked instead” and the typical talk about statistics nerds and blog boys and whatever. That’s not gonna cut it.
I hope I’m wrong a million times if it means the Knicks finally made good decisions for a change. History shows it’s probably not happening so good luck.
I said this last week but the thing about saying “there has never been a freshman NCAA player with X,Y,Z stats” who has succeeded in the NBA….it ignores the fact that there’s about 10 years of draft history where players could skip college all together. So we have no idea what Kobe or KG or Lebron would have done their freshman years in college. Some of those straight to NBA from high school players went on to be hall of famers. Some ended up being good pros. Some sucked. Some of them put up good numbers their rookie years that would indicate they would have good careers. Some would not.
So while we can point to college freshmen and say “oh he’s gonna fail” we don’t have that data from those players, which kind of screws the results. If Lebron, Kobe and KG all put up “meh” numbers as freshmen then we’d have 3 examples right there of players who did go on to have good careers.
I’m not saying Knox is going to be any of those guys. Just that even the stats and records we have our incomplete.
There are college players that improve significantly in their 2nd or 3rd year in college.
Mikal Bridges went from a 3p% of .299 as a freshman to .435 as a junior and from 12.5 points per 40 minutes to 22 points per 40 minutes. The reason his TS% remained high throughout is because his shot selection was so good. When he was a freshman his 2p% was 71% which basically means he shot at the rim and he shot 3s and that’s all. That’s why the TS% was high but the point per 40 was low. As he matured he improved his 3p% and started adding other shots.
I feel like many of us are beginning to find ways of rationalizing the Knox pick. It’s like the Five Stages of Knicks Fan Grief.
1. Denial – “No way our front office is going to pick a mid-round player based on a workout.”
2. Anger – “We picked Knox? God, this front office sucks!”
3. Bargaining – “If only we lost a few more games we’d have been able to select Doncic with the 3rd pick.”
4. Depression – “We’re never going to see a championship in our lifetimes so long as Dolan is owner.”
5. Acceptance – “Eh, maybe Knox isn’t so bad if you ignore his freshman stats and focus on his potential.”
I have a friend who played for Texas and at one point led the entire NCAA in 3 point shooting percentage.
Granted it was on like 4 attempts but I think the Knicks should give him a look.
@136. Ntila, you a killa. 100..
Stats are fake! Did you know you can have a TS% higher than 1.000? FAKE
FAKE FAKE FAKE
We give Dolan lots of shit, but at this time, the Knicks president, GM and coach are all black and none are of the celebrity variety. I know Mills was mixed up in that whole Isiah debacle, but he otherwise seems like a decent guy, and Perry and Fizdale come across as having exceptional integrity. Personnel decisions aside, it’s nice to root for these guys to get it right, as opposed to the last few iterations. Can we at least agree on that?
I’d like to say that I have a pretty good idea.
Steve Mills told one of his employees to accommodate the man who was sexually harassing her and then defended that man at trial. Fuck Steve Mills, he’s a piece of shit.
I was torn on the Mills thing. He absolutely acted like a piece of shit to Browne-Sanders. Like, pretty much the worst type of thing that you can do, where he was actually FRIENDS with her, brought her into the organization and then still fucked her over to protect the more powerful guy that was harassing her. That is about as low as you can go. However…hmmm…no, I guess I’ve got nothing. I just realized that he hasn’t even apologized for what he did. I was going to go the whole, “Everyone else talks about how nice he is and even she noted that he felt bad about what Isiah was doing” route, but no, he never even publicly apologized for fucking her over. So yeah, fuck Mills.
Can we please stop the Knox is the high upside pick talk. He might be young but his lack of athleticism is not because he was misused in Kentucky, it is not something that develops with age. He is slow. Quickness and reaction speed is part of athleticism, not just how high you jump or how fast you run. Knox from every video I’ve seen seems to have slow reactions and bad lateral quickness. This is not an age or a bad fit type thing but the primary reason he had such bad defensive stats.
As a draft person, I am a big fan of Weiland and his benchmarks. steals and blocks are an important indicator of how likely a prospect will be a bust. Knox grades out exceptionally poorly in steals and blocks.
DRed knows his quickest route to the GM role….
I had actually forgotten about Mills’ sordid role in all that.
The thing that gets me is for a month or so, we kept talking about how, “Oh man, at least they should be able to get Mikal Bridges.” “I hope Mikal Bridges doesn’t go before the Knicks pick.” “Shit, I hope that that win didn’t mean that they’re going to miss out on Mikal Bridges.”
Then they pass on Mikal Bridges and it’s, “Who did people like besides Kevin Knox? There’s no one else! You can’t point to anyone with more upside at #9! There’s no one!”
I’m one of those folks who didn’t care much for either I. Thomas or A. B. Sanders. Most of what Sanders said about her conversations with Mills was not substantiated. He’s been an executive for a long time and there were no other negative allegations about him before or after that debacle, so I hold him far less accountable than either Isiah or Dolan.
As to Knox vs. Mikal, I think pretty much all that need to be said has been said. The consensus by a large margin is that we shouldn’t have drafted him, and that we probably should have drafted Mikal Bridges. Summer league begins in a couple of weeks, not that it’s the be-all-end-all but we’ll know a lot more after seeing them play a bit.
This new Death Grips album is pretty lit tho so at least June has that
Honestly, I totally agree on that point. I had resigned myself to Knox a long time ago and I’m hoping for the best. He’s really not such a bad pick. I just don’t like this weird post-hoc reaction as if we’re retroactively nitpicking about wanting Mikal over Knox when we have been talking about Mikal for months, ya know? I’d be fine with just moving on and hoping for the best otherwise.
The nonsense being spewed here is amusing. Thinking that a 3-on-3 workout was the deciding factor in Knox getting drafted by the Knicks is insane. My thinking is that Michael Porter’s injury had a lot to do with it and that Mikal Bridges failed to impress Knicks brass somehow. I would have rather picked Mikal, but Knox was on the short list.
There definitely is something funky about Mikal’s shot, but hey, the Matrix did okay with whatever that shit was…if it goes in, it goes in.
@151
What annoys me is that it’s always “somehow”. Mikal somehow failed to impress the Knicks (but impressed Phoenix so much they traded valuable assets for him), Knox somehow impressed them beyond the reported loved workouts, Miles reportedly maybe has been destroyed in a maybe 3v3 workout, THJr somehow impressed them enough to warrant a 18 mil per contract when no one was ever offering him that much, somehow no offers came for Lee or O’Quinn, Willy somehow was declared surplus to requirements because practice man, etc.
Why can’t they do the thing that seems logical for once? I’m not asking for home runs, just hit a damn single and let’s move on. But it’s always this bullshit about how there must be a hidden reason behind every high risk low reward move or seemingly bad decision.
There was a story the other day that suggested that Kornet might not be long for the team with the addition of Robinson and that would just be too funny.
I, too, totally agree.
I’m not some big Kevin Knox fan. But, the outrage was a little over the top. “Knicks suck” “Knicks suck” “Knicks suck” “Knicks suck” “Knicks suck” gets tiring to hear after every little “possible” mis-step.
Maybe they got it right with knox, My main point is, it’s not horrible to take a little risk if they see upside in their decision.
And if you fail to agree with the crowd, the attack is not far behind.
How did Harden win the MVP over Lebron this season? Who the fuck is making the decisions for this garbage award? The guy who had the second most stacked team to play on in the West wins most valuable player over the man who carried a bunch of castoffs and never-will-bes to a Finals appearance? Amazing.
LeBron would win the postseason MVP but it would be a farce to give it to anyone but Harden.
The guy literally proved that you don’t need to take midrange shots to have a successful NBA offense, both mocking and offending NBA common-sense know-it-alls while leading his team to 65 wins and being one legendary fluke quarter away from an easy title.
If there were a Nobel Prize in NBA Basketball, it would go to James Harden for debunking the “midrange shots create necessary space” myth so goddamn thoroughly.
By the way, LeBron took entire weeks off on defense, so don’t act like Harden was the only star giving half a shit on D.
I don’t think Knox’s ceiling is particularly high. There’s no way he can be a stopper on D (“decent” if we’re lucky) and seems to be an averagely-efficient scorer on offense. Remember Al Harrington?
I’m concerned about the lack of ball skills on this team, particularly passing and handles. Burke and TH2 are the best we’ve got, which is sad.
Trey Burke is actually a great ball handler by NBA standards. I don’t know if he’s really the midrange king of the NBA, but you could do a lot worse than Trey Burke as your best ball handler.
Personally, I think Mitchell Robinson is going to have a better career than Kevin Knox. Robinson was the best shotblocker in high school basketball in a class with Mo Bamba and Jarren Jackson Jr, and that is obviously nothing to sniff at. I worry about how smart Robinson is, but he really is an instictive defender who dunks the ball in his sleep. Robinson’s ceiling is a .660 TS% guy who blocks 2-3 shots a night and is an elite rebounder. I think Knox’s ceiling is something like a lower usage Melo, which is obviously a really good player but that’s not half as valuable as that Capela type of player.
LeBron is the most valuable player in the league still and should get the MVP every year.
I think that Lebron is always the most valuable player, but that it is fair enough to spread things around to guys like Harden and Durant from time to time. I mean, it’s not like we don’t already know who’s the best, ya know?
@161 Sure, it’s fair enough to spread the wealth with the hardware while everyone winks and knows LeBron is still the real MVP.
The MVP award has been a sham for year. Maybe it should be changed to the most intriguing player or compelling, or maybe marketable player based on performance. There’s no question that Harden’s narrative this year was more intriguing and compelling than LeBron, who was more of the same ol’, same ol’. I mean, it’s the press who largely determines the award, right?