(Monday, April 09, 2018 10:10:26 PM)
Cavaliers forwards Kevin Love and LeBron James each scored over 20 points, as Cleveland cruised to a 123-109 win over the Knicks.
(Monday, April 09, 2018 6:50:15 PM)
The Knicks have gone 4-16 in their last 20 games, averaging 105.5 points per game, and that includes 128-, 124-, and 122-point nights. Remove those and New York averaged 102.
(Monday, April 09, 2018 11:15:47 AM)
LeBron’s friend Dwyane Wade had a short and sweet response last week when asked about the billboard.
(Monday, April 09, 2018 7:09:23 PM)
All Michael Beasley could do was run for cover while LeBron James soared down the lane.
(Monday, April 09, 2018 6:03:38 PM)
Every time LeBron visits the Garden it is an event just like when Jordan and Kobe would come to town.
(Monday, April 09, 2018 12:03:13 PM)
LeBron James hasn’t been thinking about the Knicks, but he heard about the billboard challenging him to play in New York.
(Tuesday, April 10, 2018 4:09:58 AM)
Five teams are vying for four playoff spots over the next three days with just one game separating them all.
(Monday, April 09, 2018 8:19:13 PM)
It was going to be so different this time. Carmelo Anthony, regarded by too many as “He Who Defiled All Things Basketball,” was gone. Phil Jackson and his blasted triangle were in the rearview mirror. Kristaps Porzingis was the alpha male, especially after the greatest individual start in Knicks history. The concern in those heady…
(Monday, April 09, 2018 6:00:33 PM)
If this was Jeff Hornacek’s last game coaching the Knicks at the Garden, you can’t say his downtrodden, depleted club lay down against the King on Monday night. The Knicks were within five points with six minutes left and six with 3:35 to go before LeBron James steered the Cavaliers home with his nifty passing…
(Monday, April 09, 2018 7:35:32 AM)
LeBron James is playing nice. James had no snarky reaction to a sign hanging near the Garden that challenged him to join the Knicks next season. The billboard contained a white Knicks jersey with his number 23 and “King of New York? Prove it. #KingJamesNYC18.” James even complimented the “cerebral” game of Knicks French rookie…
(Monday, April 09, 2018 11:12:35 PM)
LeBron James wore black sneakers that read “I’M KING” on the back of them. Then he again made the Garden his Kingdom.
(Monday, April 09, 2018 1:14:34 PM)
The Jets’ Todd Bowles is the dean of New York-area head coaches/managers among the nine teams in the traditional four major North American sports, now that the Rangers have fired Alain Vigneault.
(Monday, April 09, 2018 9:37:50 PM)
LeBron James may have gotten the last laugh in a feud with Knicks center Enes Kanter, as the Cavs star wore shoes that read “I’m King” for his final trip to MSG of the season.
117 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.04.10)”
Didn’t get to watch the game last night but I think you have to be encouraged by Ntilikina’s offensive performance. Just the fact that he put up 16 shots is progress in and of itself. Zero FTA is not going to get it done but he had 4 makes in the restricted area. That has to be a career high.
Man do I dig Dotson.
I like Timmy also but man does that contract look even worse with Dotson’s possible emergence. I know a few games at the end of the season don’t amount to any sort of certainty that he’s a real NBA player, but he’s already a better defender than Timmy, has as quick a trigger (which is a good thing given his shot selection), and is almost certainly a better shooter.
Those few weeks that Mills was in charge were just a disaster with the Baker joke of a contract (although I do like Ron) and the THJ offer sheet. Brutal. In a vacuum I don’t think the Timmy contract is that bad, but in the larger context of cap space and where the team is/was, it was just a dumb move.
btw just to give another indication of how young Frank is — he is more than 4 years younger than Dotson (Frank’s b-day is 7/28/1998 and Dotson’s is 5/6/1994). He’s still younger than Deandre Ayton (7/23/98) and Michael Porter Jr (6/29/98). We gotta give the kid time.
The Scottie Pippen comp is sort of interesting. I don’t think he’s quite as tall as Scottie, and projecting him to be a top 50 player of all time is obviously a stretch, but I can see him becoming the same kind of player. Defensive jack of all trades, probably best off as a secondary guy offensively, versatile overall.
Last thought before I get to work — I wonder if the Cavs would tank the last game to get the Nets pick to be better? Philadelphia may be way ahead in their game against the Bucks, who may actually be incentivized to lose (I’d much rather play Boston as the 7 seed than Philly as the 6 seed). If Philly wins then the Cavs are stuck in the 4th seed. Our game against the Cavs and Philly’s game against the Bucks will tip off at the same time…
The Scottie Pippen comp is sort of interesting.
one of the suprising things about frank’s year is that he didn’t attempt a single one handed dunk all season. at one point i had to go back to his europe highlights to remind myself he could do it. maybe we’ll turn on summer league and he’ll be posterizing travis wear like central arkansas scottie.
I think he’ll have better burst next season. I thought towards the end of this campaing you could see the weight he had added gave him a quicker first step at times when he’d grab and go which caught a few dudes by surprise.
If he can get to the rim more and up his 3P a couple of percentage points next year that will be a good step in his development. I’m fairly unconcerned about his defense. To my eye he’s already a tremendous nuisance who is likely to only become more of one as he fills out. Nearly rotated in time to block LeBron on a drive.
My biggest takeaway from this season is that I really liked this team. They were just very root-able. I don’t think they should sign Kanter, and O’Quinn and Lee may need to be a veteran presence somewhere else, but I thought they hustled and played team ball. I even like “Walking Bucket” and Jack. The Melo trade was really the best thing about this year. It made us into a team again. Even with KP we didn’t have enough to compete and win but I liked the effort and the team chemistry. The style of play was OK but not great. I’d prefer more ball movement but it was worlds apart from iso-Melo. That we’re too good for Doncic is both an asset and a liability. Let’s find a sleeper in the draft and maybe return to the playoffs next year. If not, stay steady, make good decisions and develop talent. Seems like this team is maybe starting to not be stupid.
I love Frank but Pipen is a huge stretch. Maybe Jimmy Butler is a reasonable ceiling.
So Westbrook needs 16 Reb in his last game to average a triple double for the season. Do you think he goes for it?
Obviously yes, what kind of question is that? xD
The question I have is whether they try to avoid Portland in the first round, because they were swept against them. I guess not, Houston would a worse rival (but they won the season series 2-1), but that would make for a really interesting 1st round match.
Tomorrow night’s results:
– Chicago suits up 3 players, loses 120-30 to the Pistons
– Boston’s Guerschon Yabusele puts up a career high 40 points and the Celtics beat the Nets 130-128.
– LeBron misses his only game of the season due to food poisoning, Luke Kornet goes 9-9 from three and the Knicks win 128-127 on a buzzer beater by Isaiah Hicks
Most likely odds are we tie Brooklyn and coin flip… the lottery system needs to be abolished though. I’m with the idea everyone gets the same odds.
If you’re almost entirely getting rid of the idea of the best incoming rookies going to the worst teams (which completely flattening the odds does) then it doesn’t make much sense to keep anything resembling the current setup in my opinion (since that’s really the only thing this system accomplishes). I think at that point you should go towards something like the wheel that Zach Lowe has floated (i.e. the order of every draft is set with no regard to record and the pick order rotates every year). Or even more dramatic abolish the draft and just do free agency for incoming rookies.
My exact thoughts when I brought it up in a previous thread. Offensively, Pippen was way more aggressive, but there are some serious similarities with the 2. I’d be thrilled if he emulated Pippen and became a Pippen type at SG. Perry almost certainly should prove the league for a team that would take THJ. While I don’t mind having him on the team, there’s just no way he or Ntilikina can play the 3 full time- and we are set moving forward at SG between Ntilikina & Dotson.
Frank reminds me of Scottkeemwilt Pippolajuwamberlain. Really, he’s just a couple of years, pounds and reps from reminding me of Michael Jordan, another great defending 2 with long arms and ball skills. Just give it some time, honest!
On the one hand I get that it can be annoying to compare a potential draft pick or young player to a superstar or hall of gamer but on the other hand when you’re projecting the best possible outcome of a prospect, comparing them to very good well known players is the easiest way to do that bc you’re trying to show who you think they might be like and what are you going to do compare them to some unknown scrub?
Yeah Frank can’t really get up like Pippen, hopefully his vertical increases like Greek Freek after a year of nba training. That’s my biggest fear with him, not a lot of guards/forwards who don’t have upper tier NBA athleticism end up as all-star caliber players.
Silver can’t take picks away, it’s too much. But I think he’d be within his rights to remove Chicago and Dallas from the lottery process. He warned both teams, and they blatantly tanked after the warnings. Dallas was actually removing players from games when they had a lead to engineer losses. Those two teams took it too far this year.
He’ll do nothing, though. And Chicago will end up winning the lottery.
danvt, +1 on everything but KOQ. Dude’s too much fun on and off the court to let go elsewhere.
On a different note, I really like how Hornachek has managed Frank’s development all season:
1. Early on, it was all about getting him introduced to NBA action, gaining comfort and familiarity without getting overwhelmed or perhaps risking a loss of confidence. Not too many minutes, but just enough to get the job done.
2. Cutting back minutes midseason to get the kid enough rest to get around the rookie wall. All while getting him the S&T bodywork to get stronger in season.
3. The move to the 2 later on was absolutely necessary to get Frank to work exclusively on the weakest part of his game: scoring, without which he’d never realize his potential as a 1. Now that he’s demonstrating the improved capacity to score, it’s opening the passing and shooting for him.
With Frank’s ongoing development, this team honestly does not need a PG.
It needs an athletic, defending, and slick shooting 2-way 3/4 or 4/5.
Say we hit and get #1, do we definitely take Luca? I was talking with a friend last night and we both weren’t sold. Do Euro’s bring championships? Outside of that one Dallas team, it seems at best they are complimentary players. Like if KP was really going to win, he’d have to go somewhere and be the solid second option.
One possible projection for next year after the all star break
PG – Frank/Burke
SG – Hardaway/Dotson
SF – Bridges/Troy Williams
PF – KP/free agent or other
C – Kanter/KOQ (I prefer it the other way around)
That is not such a bad young team to go to war with if Frank and Dotson develop further, we draft Bridges, and he shows enough to be starting by then.
(I am assuming Lee gets traded by then, but if not, he’ll be in the mix at the wings as a backup)
You take Luka at first even if you have a team of 15 SG/SFs; it’s not even close. He’s literally the best prospect since LeBron. Ayton and company don’t even come close to the level of productivity and projectability that he’s shown.
taking doncic #1 is a no brainer…. he’s the greatest wing prospect since durant… about as sure a thing as it exists in the draft….
he is putting up per 36#s that would normally put him in mvp discussions…. and that’s as a 19yo in the acb…. they are stellar across the board….. the only ding is that he probably shoots too many 3s…. but he gets to the line a line a ton and has great 2p fg% regardless…..
he is the greatest international prospect ever…. maybe sabonis has an argument but it’s an amazing feat to even be doubting that… dirk was good at a young age… but he still wasn’t doncic….
Doncic is going to transform whatever team he joins. An anti-Euro bias is just silly in this era.
frank is not pippen….. it should not even be a discussion….
frank has more in common with nate mcmillan…. and that’s probably as good as you could hope for with him.. that is still a fine fine player.. but saying frank is like pippen is like saying dion waiters is like michael jordan…..
What development? The game where he shot a lot?
The purpose of stats is to remove emotion from the evaluation of players and augment/supplant eye-test so that you can understand the true picture of a player or team. I love Frank and believe he will be a solid and maybe even all-star guard, but the numbers show that he is bad at offense…November, and today.
My main counter to the negativity around Frank, on the other hand, isn’t his wingspan or length; it’s his mind. He is clearly a very smart player with great spatial awareness. Smart players with great spatial awareness can make huge improvements to their game and can significantly improve their team’s play. I think the season after next will show a mature player who is a huge net positive to the team.
Dudes, I don’t have any hopes that Frank turns into Scottie Pippen. I said I thought he might turn into the same kind of player.
What’s interesting about how the Knicks decided to tackle his “development” is that they seemed to do what Draftexpress suggested verbatim. I mean, this is just spot on:
It really would have been a good idea for Frank to get some heavy minutes in the d-league this year, especially given how good a job the Westchester club seemed to do with development this year.
Thanks to whoever recommend “The Captain Class’. Interesting read.
The thing with Doncic is that his floor is so absurdly high. If he never improves a single thing about his game in his entire career, he’s already a very good NBA level ball handler and passer with decent to good shooting and passable defense. To be a bust in any way he would have to really get worse at a lot of the things he already does or have some major injury issues.
I think he realistically projects as a more ball dominant Ginobili, which already would be first overall pick worthy, with the potential to be more.
And here we go with the proud knickerblogger tradition of wherever someone mentions a star when talking about Frank, he gets criticized as he was saying Frank = that star.
This is so damn lazy.
I would trade Porzingis and this year’s first for Doncic right this very minute. I wouldn’t think twice, either, although I’d try to make it sound like it were a tough decision.
My guess is Doncic falls to #6 and the Knicks will draft a scrub from a Final Four team because upside. I think it’s an NBA bylaw that we’re not allowed to have a true superstar on the Knicks, because we’re not allowed to have consensus on anything. Chandler was a role player, Carmelo is the ultimate feedback loop, Porzingis is worth $40M a year… Z-man/Frank and I would agree on something, and that’s not allowed.
Outright saying “player X reminds me of..” and “I see similarities to player Y, so it would be a good idea to emulate” are 2 TOTALLY different things. Just like wildly throwing up player comps based on so-called potential as opposed to looking at playing style, body type, etc. are 2 different things. Confusing them is really irritating. I, like you, seriously dislike the random comps. Too often we think of the best version of whichever player a neophyte may have similarities to. When I mentioned Pippen, I wasn’t thinking “Top 50” Pip. I was thinking year 1-2 Pippen, playing style and body type. Therefore, emulating Pippen sounds reasonable for Ntilikina.
Let me ask you though, at this stage- is there any player you can think of that he has similarities to that makes for a suitable player to emulate considering them?
Can Donicic defend even a little?
Granted I haven’t seen much, but he looked mediocre at best when I did see him. More likely he’s going to be a negative defender.
Why should Frank try to be anyone else?
No two players are exactly alike physically or mentally. He should try to get as good as he can at every area of the game and let other people try to emulate him some day. He has it in him to become an impact player on both ends. It’s just not going to come quickly.
I would love for Ntilikina to be a trendsetter. But at the same time, You’ve gotta start somewhere, emulating someone. I’m not sure anyone is saying he should be someone else
Frank is a tough comp, because there haven’t been many point guards as tall as he is. There have been 12 players who played guard in the NBA since 1979 who were 19 or younger and 6’5″ or taller (and the Knicks have two of them). .
Everything I’ve read about Doncic says he can be a smart team defender.
He’s about Melo sized at 6’8 225-230 with decent length and will only get stronger. He’s a very strong rebounder so he should some minutes at the 4 in the NBA.
I would recommend starting with teaching Ntilikina to hit 3’s. After that we can worry about whether or not he can be Scottie Pippen.
“And here we go with the proud knickerblogger tradition of wherever someone mentions a star when talking about Frank, he gets criticized as he was saying Frank = that star.
This is so damn lazy.”
This is your typical BS, Bruno. Frank and Pippen have exactly nothing in common, other than being good long defenders, but you actually think it’s lazier to criticize that comparison rather than to make it in the first place.
It would be one thing if Frank was the same size, or the same kind of all-world athlete as Pippen. He’s not either, nor will he ever be unless steroids and growth hormone are heavily involved. It’s a ridiculously lazy comparison on any grounds. There are a million guys that are better comparisons (as djphan pointed out above, Nate McMillen is one) so why even evoke guys like Pippen or Giannis?
But you go on overreacting to any criticism of your golden child, and I’ll go on keeping it real for you.
Europstep man! He added a Eurostep to go with his dipsy doodle pass fakes! Frank is the GOAT!
Frank is 6’6, 195ish lbs currently based on reports he added an inch and 8 lbs in season.
Pippen was 6’8 and 210 lbs in the league and he came in at age 22.
Not to get into the athleticism because I feel confident that even though I expect Frank to improve he won’t be on Pippen’s level there, the actual comp from a size perspective isn’t that wild.
Batum may be a better comp though as far as a more realistic outcome which doesn’t offend anybody’s sensibilities. I think his floor is Roberson with more all around offensive game.
He’s a bit of the tweener on the defensive end (a little too slow to effectively guard quick 2s or 3s, but pretty strong, so he might be able to switch onto PFs) which may limit his individual defense, but he is by all accounts a decent team defender and an excellent rebounder at the 2 or 3. He grades out as a break even or slightly net positive defender in the course of his career, I think. Imo he’s being unfairly picked apart on the defensive end like Lonzo was last year (though Lonzo is the better defender from the start)
A Roberson who can hit 3s at a 35% rate is one of the better players in the league—since I think the comp is accurate as a floor, I’m pretty happy about that.
Frank’s at his floor and it’s pretty low. Of regular rotation players (1500+ minutes) he has the second worst OBPM of any guard in the last 10 years. Only Lance Stephenson’s disastrous season in Charlotte was worse. Even Mudiay’s rookie season was better (and by a fair amount- -3.1 vs. -3.5). Roberson’s worst year was -2.2 and Frank’s not at Roberson’s level as a defender just yet. I’m sure Frank will improve- possibly a lot- but he’s not even a rotation player on a good team right now so I’m going to wait for him prove he can be a decent backup before I start trying to guess what his ceiling might be.
You still don’t get it, do you? Holy shit.
Frank posted about a million times in his Pippen argument “a player KIND OF like Pippen”, and yet you read it as “Ntilikina will be Pippen”. That’s the lazy part. You ignore what people write.
Instead of doing what you did now, which is arguing about the suggestion and why it is wrong (and I agree with you on this case, if you cared about it), you make a lazy post mocking the suggestion.
The rest of your post, well, doesn’t even merit a response. If you’ve read any of my posts about Ntilikina for the last months you would know how stupid you’re being right now.
But yeah, keep it real, mr. “I always wanted Donovan Mitchell”.
frank is not pippen… the height.. the strength.. the quickness…. the size of their hands… are not the same…. they play totally differently…. even the numbers suggest they are miles and miles apart…. he doesn’t rebound as well… doesn’t shoot as well… doesn’t get to the line as well…. and even the defensive numbers are way way behind…. there’s nothing to suggest that frank has a wide skillset…. he’s a decent defender and that’s about it….
it’s about as hyperbolic as saying mudiay is the same kind of player that gary payton was… i would hope to most that might sound pretty ridiculous… and i’m saying that comparing to frank is equally as ridiculous….
even saying frank is like nate mcmillan is a bit hyperbolic but it’s much much closer… low usage… low ftr… and their only talents were defense, passing and hitting an open three…. pippen was GREAT at a lot of things…. a true jack of all trades…. frank could really only hope to be a jack of a few things in comparison….
A lot of these guys came into the league much later and far more physically developed than Frank.
you’re totally right. Frank is 6’5″-6’6″ at 19 years old. Scottie Pippen was 6’1″ when he was 19 years old and had to walk on to the vaunted Central Arkansas basketball team. So right – we really can’t compare the two of them.
For f*ck’s sake people – I am not saying that Frank is Scottie Pippen. I’m saying a Scottie-like player in that he’ll be a versatile defender and a secondary ballhandler / scorer as a ceiling. Is that so controversial? Nic Batum as a comp, fine. Nate McMillan as a comp, fine. It doesn’t take Z-man “keepin’ it real” for me to know that Frank is not going to be a top 50 of all-time basketball player.
Truth is – Frank is already a versatile multipositional defender. He has tons of work to do on the offensive end. But guess what? Lots of 19 year olds playing in the NBA need lots of work. The aforementioned Scottie Pippen had a TS of 48.9 and a negative assist-TO ratio as a 22 year old rookie with MJ, Oakley, Horace Grant, Paxson, etc. taking the pressure off him. He shot 17.3% from 3 point range and 57.6% from the line. As a TWENTY-TWO YEAR OLD. So let’s cool it with the “golden child” talk — let’s see what he can become. Maybe one day he can even be as good as Z-man’s golden child – Kay Felder.
Frank is really young. All these conversations are fun but won’t matter for 18 months. And he plays great defense, which you can’t really teach.
Doncic is exciting and I kind of love the Manu comp because I love Manu. I think Manu’s athleticism was a little underrated but no question he and Doncic seem to share a certain headiness and ability to get the most from their physical tools.
I would love to pair Doncic and Porzingis.
Re Chicago/Dallas and tanking. I agree they need to find a way to disincentivise tanking. But until they do, I’m not sure it’s reasonable to retrospectively punish teams who do. And why them, why now? Should the NBA also take Simmons off Philly? If anything, given Philly’s year, the incentive to go full process is stronger now someone has proven the model.
Also, it’s tricky to argue on the same blog that we wish the Knicks had tanked better but that those who did should be punished to improve our draft stock…
If I was Frank, I’d be insulted that people think my ceiling is Pippen.
You know what? That’s actually a good point dj. McMillan is a good comp too..too bad the playing style today is different. I’m not sure a McMillan type PG would survive in today’s NBA. Frank does have some McMillan traits. When I think of a Pippen type game for Ntilikina, it’s mostly defense because of the length and matching IQ on that end. On offense, Ntilikina does rebound, he does pass, and his shot will come as will his aggressiveness. With as bad as he looked on offense early on, I will be very happy if he lands anywhere between McMillan and Pippen on that end lol
Yeah, I really like the Manu comparison because he was (is still) one of those sneaky athletic guys that plays almost like time runs slower for him on the court than for everyone else. When you least expected it he would recognize a chance to make a play and go for it.
Manu was more polished when he came over as he was already 25, but Doncic seems to have the same type of craftiness and creativity that made Manu so great. I just know I’ll be angry about the Knicks not sucking a bit more to pick him in a couple of years.
LOL all of this Frank vs. Pippen talk ignores the most important factor in any comparison between the two players — that Frank at this point in his life is ahead of where Pippen was. A 19 year old Scottie Pippen was playing in Central Arkansas in the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics. He would need another two more years playing there before being drafted by the Sonics and trade to the Bulls where he played a whopping 21 minutes a game off the bench as a rookie.
Now, does that mean Frank will end up on the same trajectory as Scottie? Most probably not even close. But the point here is that we’re ignoring how incredibly young, and therefore raw, Frank is to be playing in the NBA. I just don’t understand why people can’t be patient with this kid. Or why people can’t at least understand that his struggles aren’t the end of the world.
Damn, Frank already beat me to it.
i fully realize that the comparisons are about the kind of player he might become… but there comes a certain point where it starts sounding pretty ridiculous…
every 19 yo player might become this or that…. there’s a whole lot of possibilities since the sample is fairly small…. and there’s never really a true 1:1 comparison i get that…
yes pippen was a secondary ballhandler… and a great defender… fine…. frank might become that… or may not… but there are tons of players who are like that without having to go hyperbolic … in my mind that sounds as ridiculous as saying mudiay is a similar kind of the offensive player payton was… am i out of bounds in comparison? i might even be closer….
i realize lazy comparisons happen all the time… this is how sports fan talk about players…. i’m sure i made some that were as bad in the past… and i realize alot of ppl are eager to elevate frank in their minds… but we can do that while still touching reality….
pippen grew 8 inches in his age 19 year…. and there’s tons of historical evidence that late and large growth spurts have turned non prospects into some of the game’s biggest stars…. westbrook… david robinson… rodman… pippen…. anthony davis…. paul george….
to say that frank is ahead of pippen is like saying that mudiay was ahead of him and ‘omg now they might be the same kind of player now’…. you could say that about every underclassman that has entered the draft ever… there is nothing about frank that make him a uniquely qualified analog to pip to say that…
Frank is still growing himself. He might gain another inch or two by the time he’s 22.
So he very well might end up being Pippens size in a few years.
What are the chances Bridges is still available to us at #9 if we don’t get #8?
OK forget I ever said anything about Pippen.
How about – let’s compare Frank to theoretical NBA players that may have existed or may not have existed that are about wing size with octopus-long arms and excellent defensive abilities and potential that show good court vision and unselfish tendencies on the offensive end and do a lot of things that don’t show up in the box score and don’t really want to be high usage guys that are 19 years old that are not perfect basketball players yet because they’re 19 years old and when I was 19 years old I could barely make a bowl of ramen for myself but at at 19 years old they are playing in the NBA against Lebron James.
Is that better?
My guess is that Nova winning the tourney means it doesn’t matter if we’re picking 8th or 9th, Mikal will be gone before we pick. Him being too good to pass up is already a lamestream media story.
yes… and you just described mudiay also…
Mudiay is a historically awful defensive player who has managed to single handedly plummet his teams across 3 seasons. So other than physical tools he didn’t describe Mudiay. Gimme a break.
@63 – Frank is almost the complete opposite of Mudiay other than they are both 6’5″ with long arms with reasonable court vision. Mudiay’s an awful and indifferent defender on and off the ball, and does not seem to want to do the little things. Mudiay’s usage has also been in the 25 range for his career whereas Frank’s is unselfish to a fault. They really couldn’t be more different as prospects. I mean I guess they are more similar than Frank and say, Steve Novak, so you’ve got me there.
That’s weird, I thought I liked Felder as a second round flyer, not a mid-lottery pick in a stacked draft. I certainly didn’t compare him to Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul or Steph Curry. But whatever, if you look at Frank and see anything remotely resembling Scottie Pippin, good for you!
Yeah, you should know by now that I like to joke around. But you have no sense of humor at all whenever anyone posts anything suggesting you are wrong. So I’ll just continue to have fun tweaking you and your humorless self.
If we end up in spot 9 we will end up with a good player regardless, but to my untrained eye the drop off might be semi-steep beyond there — like if some team jumps us. Small chance of that but hey we are Knicks fans.
If Bridges gets picked ahead of us it might mean that Trae Young or Bamba or even MPJ has dropped. I would be happy with any of those.
you know that now but at 19 the same wishcasting was bestowned upon mudiay on draft night…
and yes that also means that frank and mudiay have waaaay more in common than frank does with pippen…
When Frank plays PG he is really not bad as a primary ball handler considering that he’s the youngest player in the NBA. He’s averaging a shade over 6 assists per/36 as PG, and that’s like Damion Lillard territory. In a couple years he could easily average 8 assists a game. The problem is that he can’t score for shit.
Bridges weighs 190 and will be 22 when the season starts so I think you need to look at him as a two- even if he can put on 20 pounds there are going to be a lot of threes who can push him around. I think Frank is more likely to wind up a three body-wise than Bridges. I’d be fine with taking him because the Knicks need talent and should take the BPA regardless of position. I’d still prefer Carter Jr. or Young (depending on how he shoots in workouts) but if Frank does progress both physically and skill-wise they’d make a great wing combo.
Scottie Pippen was born on September 25, 1965. He played as a freshman in 1983, meaning that he was still technically 17 years old when he started college. Yes, he was 6’1″ then, but he was 6’5″ when sophomore year started (age 18-19) and nothing like the player he was at age 17:
“When sophomore year started in the fall of 1985, Scottie had grown to 6’5. He had now become a player of rare talent. Because of the position he played in high school he had the mentality and ball handling skills of a point guard but now he also had the height of a forward. His unique talents allowed him to play all 5 positions. He quickly became the best player and led his team in scoring and rebounding in his sophomore year.”
He was 6’7″ by his senior year (not quite 21 when it started) and 6’8″ when he got drafted.
Frank, on the other hand, has been listed at 6’5″ since 2016:
He was still 6’5″ in U18, and when he played for Strasbourg, and still 6’5″ when he was drafted. And now? He’s still 6’5″. But yeah, he’ll be 6’8″ any day now. And he’s far closer to being 20 than 19.
He’s 6’6″ now. He grew an inch this year.
So there’s a chance, according to medical professionals who work with him and the Knicks, he could get to 6’7″ due to a late growth spurt just like Pippen, though perhaps not enough to get to 6’8″.
Frank is 6’6 now. He was the same height as Houston in a recent pic and looked only marginally shorter than Oakley as well.
Also looks taller than Timmy on the court.
Well, it’s a lazy joke, and it evokes the laziest argument of them all, “hey guys I was just joking, don’t you have a sense of humour?”.
The initial discussion wasn’t even about me and wasn’t suggesting I was wrong at all. I’ve said about a million of times already that I’m disappointed about Frank’s lack of offensive development and yet that I’m willing to give him two offseasons of development to see what we have. He has shown very good defensive capabilities which are backed by stats and any sort of eye test. How have I been proven wrong?
You caught on with this narrative of Frank being my golden child or something even when it’s unrelated to any of my recent posts, so you keep doing you I guess.
Frank Ntilikina is going to be the first and the best Frank Ntilikina ever. Of this I am certain.
He’s an easy guy to root for, and I’m glad the Knicks drafted him. I sure hope his offense develops nicely b/c it is fun to have someone who is such a good and versatile defender.
Am I misremembering that you got all bent out of shape because someone contradicted you by calling some hypothetical basketball decision a “no-brainer?” Was that someone else? Genuinely asking, here, because I spent quite a bit of psychic energy on trying to figure out how anyone could find that phrase offensive.
That said, I have found your opinions on basketball quite amusing for years now. Glad you’re still gracing us with your presence.
Come on guys, anyone is entitled to his pet peeves. Z-Man’s one is to say that Frank is an awful offensive player (which he has been this season, if you made a highlight reel of my faces when Frank bricked a wide open shot it would have gone viral in matter of hours), and that he will always be. I think that we don’t know what he is but a player that has his brain is unlikely not to carve a solid rotation role, which is a good thing to get at #8.
My pet peeves is the Knicks won’t hire me as gm and let me assemble my superteam of good rebounding guards who can’t shoot
It Scott Perry isn’t out of his mind next year rotations will do wonders for your pet peeves, DRed. I fully expect a threeheaded defensive monster lineup with Frank Dotson and Ron on the court together.
I had to use an illegal search warrant to find this one (hey Jack Bauer!), but here’s a blast from the past:
To sum it up, SCHOENE had the Knicks at 37 wins. Fans were apoplectic over this shit!
Z-man was not having it.
Yes, but Z-man saw the future and told us otherwise.
There were a few good players in there, but definitely not the 1-D Novak or the overrated round dude J. Kidd.
Let me embolden the important “gain” in this one–
#1 overall pick Andrea
Il cacio e il pepe…
Was Z-man incredulous? You betcha.
You should see Lady Jowles’s eyes roll into the back of her head (stats-focused math major who loathes Vegas with passion) when I talk about the 2013-14 Knicks’ O/U season line.
Deal! Now, let’s talk about…
…Z-man’s prediction about a 19-year-old rookie’s future production! Get your bookmarks ready, folks!
Where would we be as a forum without Jowles’ preternatural Google search abilities
I shudder at the thought
The “no-brainer” argument was about whether or not Dolan should have allowed Grunwald to match the “ridiculous contract” (per Melo) that was offered to Jeremy Lin by the Rockets. I didn’t find the phrase offensive per se, only in the context of an extremely controversial decision where there was clearly no “no-brainer” answer. We can continue to debate that decision if you’d like, but considering that Lin was coming off knee surgery, never came close to his Linsanity self, that it would have cost upwards of $70 million to sign him, that is subsequently cost Morey a first-round pick to jettison him (after Morey publicly humiliated Lin by having Melo’s likeness on a billboard wearing Lin’s uniform number) and that no intelligent GM or owner (including Morey himself) would have matched that poison-pill contract or considered it a “no-brainer” in retrospect, I’m comfortable with any outrage I felt towards anyone that minimized either side on that decision. If anything, history has shown that it was a no-brainer NOT to match…as the “poison pill” adjective implied at the time.
Misremembering and THC-J…perfect together.
Don’t talk about cacio e pepe, I have to get thin!
am i misremembering or did jowles refer to porzingis as hot garbage when we drafted him? ahh, if we only had wcs…
Let’s call Ntilikina’s pick the new poison pill and give it a couple years before we condemn it, eh?
I’d love to be wrong on Ntilikina, it would be only the millionth time I’ve been wrong about the Knicks, as opposed to the 900,000 times you’ve been wrong, but who’s counting?
I’m willing to bet Frank’s gonna average 10/4/3 with a .500 TS% next year and a .060 WS. Who wants to bet?
Melo made some good points about rebounding today when talking about Westbrook.
He joked that Westbrook steals defensive rebounds (lol), but more importantly he realized that it can be an advantage to have a PG that rebounds well because if you are a fast break team, it starts the break faster than having a C/PF get the rebound and look for an outlet pass.
My 3 good rebounding point guard superteam would murder people on the break to help make up for their lack of outside shooting.
If he starts I’ll take the “over”.
I’m willing to bet that Frank will be league average from 3 in his third year.
While the league zigs, Dred zags, Hinkie would have been proud.
I do think there’s some inherent value on PGs grabbing rebounds and pushing the ball, Jason Kidd himself used to be great about this, but I think there’s something to be said also about the position where that happens. I’m much happier with a guard picking a rebound around the top of the paint for example so he can push fast, but I fail to see how meaningful are those Westbrook rebounds where he flies to the defensive rim and picks it up over a big man. I don’t see those being more valuable than a big man simply doing the same and passing to him right away. If you have a good passing big like Love for example it might be even more beneficial for the guards to just run up court and try to exploit a defense still getting into position.
I see the value, I just don’t think it’s always meaningful.
You may be right.
D’Antoni argued that allowing players to leak out sacrificed a little rebounding but you could make up for it with a faster break and more efficient scoring. There’s probably no magic “one size fits all” formula for it. It depends on who’s back there rebounding, how reliable he is, and how good he is at making the outlet pass vs. who the guard is, how well he rebounds, where he’s getting most of his rebounds, who else is on the break, and how quickly he goes coast to coast.
ZMan is not to be taken seriously re: Frank. He’s fucking with everybody. See Poe’s Law.
I hope Mikal goes higher than our spot because that means other younger players like Bamba or Carter Jr. will drop to us. Mikal is a good player, but at 22, he should be playing that well against mostly younger opponents and with stellar teammates. What Carter has done statistically is more impressive as a still-18-year-old.
Rebounding guards give the big man a chance to run up the court? I don’t really have the answer to that, but a good rebounding guard is precisely what a team like ours will need if we do the right thing and move KP to the center position full time. Personally, I think rebounding is a team thing and as long as a team wins the rebound battle on a nightly basis, I could care less who is grabbing them. I really just want my big man to do the only thing he absolutely needs to, and that’s stabilize the interior of my defense. Marc Gasol was never a great rebounder but the Grizzlies were a great defense in large part because of his ability on defense. I think somebody on this website linked to an article where Hassan Whiteside contested more 3 point jumpers than Westbrook? Yeah, that’s not good for a defense. You want your perimeter players to be ensuring the opposite team’s eFG% isn’t through the roof just so they can go grab a DREB.
I think I might prefer Carter also, but I think he’s probably going to be gone.
If someone better than Bridges drops, I’m all for it, but to be honest there aren’t any players that really light me up the way some people are clamoring for Donicic. I don’t even want Bamba.
IMO, having a really good defensive C is more valuable than having a good defender at any other position. Not only is the C responsible for the opposing C, he’s also responsible for helping clean up everyone else’s mess when they get beat. With the other positions you will occasionally get an easy night. The C never gets an easy night even when the opposing C is not a scorer.
Of course, you’d prefer there be fewer messes, but no one else has as big and as important a job as the C (PG is probably 2nd most important given the league now).
KP/Frank is a great combo!
Yeah, I think it depends on a lot of stuff about team composition. Allowing your big man to run up the court is one thing if he is Capela or DeAndre and a different thing if he is Kanter or Marc Gasol.
I think a good rebounding team will have guards taking a fair share of those and it is generally a good thing, but it has been overrated in Westbrook’s case, in my opinion, as some of his rebounds are not in the most valuable spots in terms of initiating offense fast.
Westbrook is different from Kidd in that he would leave his man often to be in better position for rebounds.
I am the only one on this site that has never been wrong about anything.
owen is olde english for “teller of falsehoods”
Bigs are important in defense because offensive players can miss open jumpers but literally no one (except Courtney Lee in 2009) misses open layups. Of course you want to minimize open threes and even open long-range twos against good shooters, but perimeter defenders are most valuable when they deny their man an avenue to get to the rim.
Bigs do this on virtually every play, so they’re more critical to team defense.
Anyone that takes any regular on this site seriously about anything is a moron.
But I do honestly think that:
1) Frank was the wrong pick (i.e. several players drafted 1-10 spots after him will be better)
2) Frank is not a PG
3) Frank’s floor is a 3-and-D rotation player.
4) I have no idea what his ceiling is, but I’m not as optimistic as most.
5) he’s a great kid
6) you all suck
I don’t know a damn thing about what Frank will become offensively, but I’m willing to bet Frank Ntilikina becomes the Tony Allen of his era and will be a plus rebounder. He’s the kind of guy who will need to be on a team with multiple offensive threats so he can keep the ball moving and make a good move or two. My best comparison for Ntilikina is probably a more athletic version of what Jason Kidd was for us in 2013. I think that’s a very valuable player, and Kidd wasn’t even half the defender Frank Ntilikina will be for us. Mitchell, Smith Jr, Kennard, John Collins, and Harry Giles all have a chance to be better players than Frank Ntilikina, but the 2017 draft was a lot deeper than people realize. At the same time, if Frank actually does become 2013 Jason Kidd + the best perimeter defender in the NBA, you’ve got a player who is essentially The Draymond Green of Shooting Guards. That would be a top 15 player in the league, and I believe that’s his ceiling. He’ll never average more than 12 points a night, but everything else he will give you and at the assumed less-than-max-salary his counting stats will command, you’re talking about one of the best bargains in the entire league through the productive part of his career.
D’Antoni and/or the Rockets FO have figured out having two point guards is better than playing with one point guard, but why try to play catch up when you can just put three point guards out there at once? The Hornacek Suns were like the Woodson Knicks in that the figured out something ahead of the rest of the league but didn’t realize why they were winning.
Haha Z. I’m bullish on Frank, and glad they took him over Dennis Smith. Just watch Frank on defense next time you’re at a game. He manages to guard his man and a passing lane; it’s fun to watch.
The Sixers should get another PG
The Jazz are embarrassing the Curry-less Warriors right now… this team is so fun to watch.
I know very little about potential draft picks other than what I read here because I don’t pay attention to college basketball. Last year, I ended up wanting Ntilikina, despite not knowing much about him, because he was known for his defense and was young and maybe a prodigy. There’s a lot of debate here about how good he is, but I think it’s clear that he is fine for being drafted 9th, where you typically get a player who becomes a role player or an average starter (although of course I want him to be better than that). This year the only guy I really want is Doncic, also a prodigy and good at several things. But we won’t get him, so now I am torn. Mikal Bridges sounds like a two way player, but also perhaps a tweener. If we had the chance at Michael Porter Junior, maybe we should gamble on him, despite his injury. Would he be a two way player, or just an all offense type of guy?
MPJr probably won’t offer you much in the way of defense but he’s going to be the premier mismatch in the NBA at power forward. The guy is basically a 7 foot version of Carmelo Anthony (which means more dunks, the obvious decision to play him at power forward, and none of the ego/character problems).
And I’m certain the Knicks can come up with an offer Memphis can’t refuse for Luka Doncic.
Then I am neither very interested in Porter nor do I want to make menphis an offer they can’t refuse. We’d be giving up good stuff and I think a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Of course, if we didn’t have to give up KP or Ntilikina, and could minimize the draft picks we trade, I could change my mind about dealing for Doncic.
Jesus, the point about Scottie Pippen still went over the usual heads because the same people refuse to have a reasonable view about Ntilikina. When I said he was ahead of Pippen’s development, it was a way of contextualizing how ahead of the curve he is at this point in his career, even compared to a player who became NBA legends. No one is arguing Frank is destined to be come a legend, we are pointing to the fact that despite his struggles, Frank’s advanced for his to playing in the NBA, even with many years of development ahead of him. Just like it wouldn’t be fair to judge a 19 year old Pippin’s future based on where he was at that point in his development, it wouldn’t be fair to judge a 19 year old Frank’s future based on his rookie season as the 2nd youngest player in the NBA. And if it took Pippen five more years of college and NBA games to become even a +.100 WS/48 player, imagine how many games it will Frank to develop into a useful piece if at all? But naw, Knicks fans ain’t got time for that. They want to develop players, just not in a way that actually takes time and patience.
I’m a big KP fan, but I’d give him up for Doncic. No brainer.
With Frank and KP as our foundation I wouldn’t be worried about defense long term. Someone else has to put the ball in the basket.
Like I said yesterday, I would pretty much make any trade for Doncic as long as it was KP + a 1st or 2 firsts and a pick swap. Anything more would probably be too much.
The one trade the glass half rebuilt was talking about yesterday would be the ideal scenario, pick swap this year, 2020 + pick swap 2021 and we take Parsons contract. It is a doable idea too if the Suns get the 1st overall maybe, as they probably won’t be too interested in Doncic because of Booker and could still draft a big man with the 8th or 9th overall pick.
Not like it would happen, but it’s nice to dream about.