Knicks Morning News (2018.02.23)

Someone mentioned yesterday the final date for a team to sign a player for example Noah should he be bought out is March 1. would any team sign him for the remainder of the season and for how much?

So that helps the buyout a little. Let’s offer $20m lol

I’m not sure if Burke is good enough defensively to be a starting PG on a contender, but we may have our backup PG position locked up. Baby steps.

Given that Burke looks pretty good, the Mudiay trade looks worse. There’s talent there, but the gap between his talent and his production is enormous.

Frank and Burke go well together in some ways, but if Burke is the PG, Frank is going to have to do more on the boards or elsewhere. He’s going to have the ball less often and get fewer assists. He HAS to come back next year with at least a much better 3 point shot and something else. I like the blocks. With his length and defensive instincts he should get some blocks.

If we could somehow combine Burke and Frank into 1 player, that would be quite a player.

Some interesting details on the Knicks Wall channel on YT.
On defense size is a problem for Burke but at least he seems committed to try and his shooting prowess force opposing D to stay close, opening space for others.
With the exception of LT’s minutes I find yesterday’s playing time acceptable, now I want to see more of Williams (Zach Lowe agrees in his last column 🙂 )
BTW since his debut game the UniKornet is 0-10, including 0-8 from 3PT.

Yeah Kornet isn’t an nba player.
Burke looks great but he’s 25. That’s a lot older than 19 or 21.
That being said, I’m already pretty sick of Mudiay. I’d rather just roll with an undersized 3 by using Burke/Frank/TH2 in the starting lineup. Sadly, a Burke/Frank/TH2/pf/Kyle lineup might actually win some games.

Burke looked real good last night, the most polished of out PG’s. He’s got a well rounded, smooth offensive game. His size/defense are the biggest knocks against him.

Mudiay had some good and bad moments last night. He made some great passes and a few good shots. Also, he made some awful passes and a few bad shots.
His problems almost always stem from mental errors – taking contested shots, passing into congestion, and driving into traffic. All Fixable. He needs someone to teach him discipline.
Maybe he’ll never learn and have a stunted career. But he’s only 21, big, athletic and shows good signs. I’m still hopeful he can become a solid PG.
I can’t understand why everyone here hates him so much, but so be patient with Frank.

Mudiay has had two full seasons as a starter to figure it out that Frank has not.

So, because of what he did in Denver, you’re going to trash him as a knick? I think a good coach can fix his game. Last night he had 4 assists and 2 tunovers. Not horrible. But he should have had zero turnovers. Both TO’s were dumb passes he should not have attempted.
I’m a knicks fan. Until it seems hopeless – on what they’re doing in a knicks uniform – I’m rooting for all our young guys to succeed. I like Frank, Burke and Mudiay.

Frank seems to exhibit a high basketball IQ, lazy passes notwithstanding.

On defense, yes. On offense, I don’t see it.

@ 13. After Mudiay’s first 2 games as a Knick, you said he had great presence, looked like a player, and can become a border line All-Star.
After his 3rd game, you said you were wrong about him, that he sucks.
After last night’s game, you are citing his 4:2 a/to ratio as a sign of his potential.

All of this while willfully ignoring anything he did in 2.5 years in Denver, as if that doesn’t matter.

In short, you are not to be taken seriously.

@ 15.
I never said Mudiay sucks.
At times, Mudiay does show tremendous court presence, especially at passing and pushing the ball up in transition.
I said he played awful in his third game.
I stand by what I said from the beginning. If he cleans up his game, reducing his mental errors, he can be an excellent PG. If he keeps doing the same stupid mistakes, he’ll suck.
Time will tell, but I’m rooting for him to be successful.

@ 13 you asked why, I gave you a possible reason, namely past performance, and your response is to be annoyed with me for taking the time to give you an answer? Don’t ask questions if you are going to be that way with people who bother to answer.

Yeah, I can live with the Knicks losing ping pong balls if the kids are playing. But I think the one way to almost ensure losing would be to sit O’Quinn for Kornet or Hicks. O’Quinn is just so damn good they would have no chance without him.

Yeah I’m not going to write of Mudiay when he’s only 21 and didn’t go to college and played 11 games in China before going to the NBA. Yes at this point he has a fairly large sample size but honestly he should not have been thrown into the fire of starting from day one in Denver and his rookie stats are definitely the worst. We have the rest of this season, the off season and next year to evaluate him. And the good news is that he probably could be resigned for cheap next year if we want to because unless he just takes this monumental leap next season, even if he improves, he’s not gonna command a huge salary in free agency. But in his next contract is when he could put it together. I’m intrigued by the skills and the physical tools. Him and Frank together could be really nice.

Regardless…I like the kids on this team! I’m oddly excited about next year without KP.

And I know we gotta lose the rest of the way but please pretty please is it ok if they beat the clippers next week? Cause I’m going to that game…first one in 3 years. So a W would be nice!

@19

Hoolahoop is interested in neither Statistical Analysis or Humor. Not worth the time to argue.

“Hey, this last game his asst/to ratio is 2:1! He’s got potential!”

“Hey, why are you citing 2 seasons as evidence of his potential? Aren’t you a fan?”

Not any more. Or at least, not right now. I would need just cause to believe our FO understands how to build a team. This isn’t baseball: you don’t add 8 starting pitchers and know it will work out because of injuries. The Knicks added 4 centers (or 5, really), didn’t address the logjam, and therefore lost a young player who got ROY votes and was on a PHENOMENAL contract for a bag of beans, and ended up with another who is being paid $18mil to stay home. Oh, and didn’t trade the one who is likely to be gone next year, getting 0 value for him.

Meanwhile we draft a potential PG, bring up another through the D league, and then trade for one who in a substantial number of minutes has shown no real evidence he’ll ever be a quality player. Let’s repeat the mistakes of the past WHILE IT ISN’T EVEN YET PAST!

Unbelievable.

And now we can’t lose games to get better draft odds, ensuring another mediocre pick in a stacked draft.

The only hope, really, is to get lucky. If the ping pong balls bounce our way and we jump a few picks, then I’ll believe maybe KP’s injury was luck helping us get good draft position next year and to keep him at a more reasonable price after a partial season where he shows he can still play but needs time. But…it would take that kind of luck.

@ 25 – Rama that is a very unfair assessment.

First of all, in order to trade Melo they HAD to take back Kanter to match salaries. That is how trades work. Their only options were Houston and OKC bc Melo had the no trade clause (thanks phil!) and the OKC offer was better (everyone believed this at the time). The FO said at the time that the roster was imbalanced but that it was a work in progress. The way you explain it, you make it sound like Perry came on board and was like “WE NEED TO ADD MORE CENTERS!” when that is just not true at all.

They added one center this off season. And KP has spent the majority of his career so far playing PF, not center. Plus Noah was serving a 12 game suspension AND hardly played last year because of injuries. So that center logjam really wasn’t that bad. Willy got screwed but also Willy didn’t step up and take minutes away from KQ or Kanter, who outperformed him in practice and in games. He balked at the idea of going to the D-League.

And yes, Frank could be a PG. But he could also be a SG/Wing. They drafted him not because they thought “PG of the future for sure” but because of his intriguing versatility, defense and potential. He was not a clear PG like Fox or Ball or even Smith Jr. And he may not even end up being that. Everyone is mad that we got Mudiay cause its taking time away from Frank at PG but what if Frank’s best position ultimately is a playmaking SG. Why are people so caught up in labels/positions when they NBA is becoming more and more position less?

I don’t see how getting Mudiay is repeating mistakes from the past. Was he an aging free agent that we overpaid for? Did we give up a king’s ransom to get him? He’s a former lottery pick who is still less than 3 years in the league, not even 22 and has athleticism and size. How is taking a flyer on this kid a bad thing again when this season and next is all ready lost bc KP went down?

The Noah situation sucks but I mean it sucked last year too…

i don’t really like mudiay either but i like what we did with him yesterday featuring him in the post for a couple of possessions…. i don’t think that’s a great option but i like that we’re trying different things….

also … early returns on frank at sg has been disastrous…. his assist rate has been abysmal and his shooting has been even more atrocious…. if we’re playing burke and mudiay at lead guard next season this could very well bury frank…

If I thought that Frank and Mudiay were getting real teaching from this staff, I might be a little more hopeful. But these guys come with little training and actual practice under their belts and can’t get much during the season (not that you want Rambis telling them anything).
Going down to the G-League where you can experiment without being under the microscope would be so helpful… it just won’t ever happen.

The Mudiay trade is exactly the same idea that has been plaguing this organization for decades: every team needs to take chances on small deals and inconsequential signings because it is possible to get value out of this. But good teams take chances on guys who have actually either shown something promising or are complete unknowns in the professional level.

Mudiay is a known quantity, he’s terrible, the only reason he’s in the NBA is because he was hyped as a prospect when he was 17 and he’s athletic. Good teams find value out of such small deals; the Knicks find Mudiay.

In a bubble, I’m ok enough with the trade. He only cost a 2nd rounder and McD and comes off the books soon enough, I just don’t think he deserves minutes over Frank or Burke, and that could hinder the progress of those guys.

Re: the tank, I’m not sure we can move up much more. I’m just hoping that we don’t drop at all. If we end up between 8-10, I’d be very happy with Wendell Carter. He’s already a well-rounded player and could be a physical force eventually. That’s assuming JJJ will be gone by then.

In round two, I’d like to take a flyer on Chandler Hutchinson. He looks very polished on both sides of the ball.

i’m beginning to think carter is the best big in the draft…. he compares pretty favorably to love and he has better defensive upside than him…

I’m not as down on Mudiay starting as some. If he continues to stink, which is very likely, then it is good for the tank. I wish they hadn’t given up that 2nd rounder, though.

But yeah, Frank and Trey need to play. Last night’s G minutes were fine.

As has been said, limiting OQ’s minutes needs to happen right away. All playing him does is hurt the tank and further drive up his likely asking price after the season…

Willy would have been a top 5 Pick in a redraft and was in convo for rookie of the year? Are you serious with this hyperbole?

In a redraft Willy would have been drafted in the first round but claiming he would have been a top 5 Pick is a HUGE stretch.

Also, getting a few votes for ROY or being named second team all rookie IS NOT THE SAME as being in convo for rookie of the year. Willy our up decently good rookie stats in the back half of the season last year. He did not play all season.

I mean I get you think Willy was a wasted opportunity but you basically just said he was on the caliber of KP or KAT as far as his ceiling and that’s just plain ridiculous.

I’m OK with the minutes distribution from last night, but I’m not happy with Mudiay jumping over Frank and Burke to start. If he outplays them fine, but other than that he should earn everything above some developmental time on merit. So far, I think Burke and Frank deserve the minutes and he is 3rd.

I would also like to see Frank continue getting minutes at PG with Dotson, Hardaway or even Lee at SG. I want to see him at both PG and SG.

Making second team all rookie means nothing too. It’s basically a participation trophy.

The point about Mudiay is that instead of searching high and low for someone with genuine potential, like a TJ McConnell (not that he is any great shakes), we went after someone whose statistical record is so overwhelmingly terrible it makes you scratch your head.

Stanley Johnson was eminently available, probably for the same price as Mudiay.

Johnson’s shooting numbers are legitimately atrocious, but he has shown enough promise to take a chance on. Acquiring him would have been a fair gamble and made me at least think these guys are smart.

Instead, no. We just went with the athletetic guy who sucks at basketball and handed him the point guard minutes we should be giving to Frank.

Not that it makes a huge difference, but Willie was actually first team all rookie. He was also fifth in ROY vote points, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Willy’s updated stats in CHA:

72 TReb/36min
36 Blk/36 min

Yes, I missed another number, but he must press for an extension right now…

🙂

Actually, looking at that 2016 draft, I think Willy would STILL go in the top 5, even after a season of sitting on the bench. What a terrible draft.

How badly, and for how long, do the Knicks have to suck before people stop deferring to their authority with regards to basketball decisions?

Clearly “very” and “around 18 years” are not the answers to those respective questions, because people are still saying the Knicks’ internal evaluation of Willy alone was sufficient rationale to trade him for nothing.

Guys, this team has fucking sucked forever. They make bad basketball decisions. I mean, let’s use Occam’s Razor here; what’s more likely, the Knicks traded Willy because their secret Practice Evaluation Model correctly determined he was bad, or a dumb team did a dumb thing?

Right now, trading Willy is a bad “process” move
(he didn’t play enough this year, he was All Rookie last year) from a
dumb FO that will suck forever (or until they hire us as GMs)

The fact that is a bad process move doesn’t mean that Willy is a good player or that he’ll be useful long term.
It’ll be years before we could really evaluate this specific aspect.
He could become a star, he could become a starter, he could become a garbage time scrub, he could be in Europe in two years. And the two 2RD we received for him will be evaluated accordingly.

One thing is judging the trade (very questionable) and the asset management (very bad) another thing is judging the player (jury’s still out).

Playing time is seriously not a valid argument when we’re dealing with the damn New York Knicks and the Charlotte Hornets, combined records of 49-69.

The Knicks were starting Jarrett Jack seriously thinking he was helping a playoff push while keeping Trey Burke on the G-League for like 25 games too long when he might be the best PG on the team now. Our coach actually really truly thinks Lance Thomas provides any value to a NBA team.

While KP was busy becoming Ivan Drago last summer, WTF was WHG doing? Sept ’17 Willy looked just like April ’17 Willy.

Even Ron f’in Baker got better.

IMHO, he wasted his summer. SMH

I wouldn’t use the “couldn’t crack the rotation” excuse when our coach main problems are rotations and communication with the players. Willy didn’t look good this year, but the trade return is still just awful.

@61

it’s probably a good analogy, since Ivan Drago clearly can’t shoot too.

Seriously, it was a ridiculous trade, let’s just move on. Maybe in 2020 or 21 we’ll get a Willy Hernangomez type of player from those awesome picks.

Future second rounders are worth considerably less than current year second rounders.

In this instance, the two future seconds combined are probably worth a bit less than the second they gave up to get Mudiay in terms of current trade value.

But yes, in general, seconds tend not to be great assets, which is why I certainly wasn’t freaking about about them dealing one for Mudiay.

However, when you’re a team of little to no assets like the Knicks, you probably should be more careful with your seconds. So it probably wasn’t the best idea to trade one for Mudiay. Not a terrible idea, of course, but probably not the best idea.

Yikes, Jimmy Butler with a scary injury. The initial MRI was negative, so maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe it wasn’t a torn MCL/ACL. Here’s hoping!

It’s absurd that Lou Williams is still a Clipper. That man deserved better.

I had to re-read the terms of Lou Williams’ extension a couple of times, because I couldn’t believe it was so cheap. Jerry West must have brainwashed him to take half of what THJ is making. He needs to fire his agent asap.

Butler’s xray’s apparently came negative, hope it’s nothing as serious as it looked.

@64

The reason the Knicks traded Hernangomez was because he’s a young promising player that wanted developmental time, but he was buried on the bench, upset, his agent complained, and he asked for a trade given there was a lot of interest elsewhere.

They could have said “no”, but then Willy and his agent would get pissed off and other players and their agents would see the Knicks burying a promising young guy that many other teams were interested in and hurting his career development. That’s not what you want either.

You can ask why they accepted a Melo deal that included Kanter when they already had Noah, O’Quinn, and Willy, but they were trying to keep Melo happy and get as much back as possible.

You can ask why they were playing O’Quinn when he might be gone anyway. It was because he earned the minutes on merit, was in a contract year, and burying him when he was playing better and in a contract year would have been even a worse look than burying Willy.

Teams have to deal with players, their careers, their families, their agents, the union, the league, and the reputation of their franchise. They can’t just move pieces around based on numbers. They are tying to keep everyone happy while building their team because there are downsides to players and agents hating you.

They have a similar issue with Noah now. They could take a hard line and just tell him stay home so they could potentially use his contract later, but then you are pissing him and his agent off and the rest of the league will see that you have a veteran player totally buried away from the team when other teams want him. That’s not going to make other players, agents or the player union happy either. We are the ones that made the bad deal. We are the ones refusing to play him even in garbage time and are incapable of trading him. But he wants to play and playoff teams want him. So the idea is find something that works for both sides where we save a little money and he gets to play.