[SNY Knicks] Knicks fall apart late to 76ers, lose seventh straight (Monday, February 12, 2018 9:49:00 PM)
The Knicks’ losing streak reached seven games with a 108-92 loss to the Philadelphia 76ers on Monday at Wells Fargo Center.
[SNY Knicks] Knicks, 76ers going in different directions heading into Monday’s game (Monday, February 12, 2018 5:54:39 PM)
The Knicks look to snap a six-game losing streak when they face the Philadelphia 76ers on Monday at Wells Fargo Center.
[SNY Knicks] Knicks considering Prigioni as developmental coach (Monday, February 12, 2018 5:42:47 PM)
Former Knicks PG Pablo Prigioni could see a New York reunion as a developmental coach
(Monday, February 12, 2018 8:38:06 PM)
PHILADELPHIA — Jeff Hornacek thinks Kristaps Porzingis will look back at his catastrophic ACL tear and “be glad he went through it,” saying he has a “great attitude.” Porzingis is expected to undergo surgery to repair the ACL tear in his left knee Tuesday — one week after suffering the injury. The Knicks may reveal…
(Monday, February 12, 2018 4:57:27 PM)
PHILADELPHIA — As reporters entered the visitors’ locker room at Wells Fargo Center late Monday, Tim Hardaway Jr. yelled out an obscenity. He wasn’t angry at the media but himself. And he let it be known once he began his salty postgame interview. The Knicks guard continued his horrid shooting streak, particularly from 3-point territory….
(Monday, February 12, 2018 11:38:52 AM)
PHILADELPHIA — It’s the family’s biggest regret. Jean-Micheal Mudiay said he believes younger brother Emmanuel’s career would look differently had he attended SMU and learned under Larry Brown for a season instead of going to China to play professionally after high school. After two and a half underachieving seasons with the Nuggets, Mudiay was dealt…
[NYDN] Knicks lose 108-92 to Sixers on eve of Kristaps Porzingis surgery (Monday, February 12, 2018 4:42:31 PM)
The long road back for Kristaps Porzingis begins Tuesday in a Manhattan hospital where the Knicks’ franchise player will have surgery.
[NYDN] Stephon Marbury retires from basketball after last game in China (Monday, February 12, 2018 9:21:04 AM)
The light is going out on Starbury’s career.
(Tuesday, February 13, 2018 12:33:35 AM)
PHILADELPHIA — Tim Hardaway Jr. sat in the locker room, stewing. His terrible shooting slump is driving him crazy.
(Monday, February 12, 2018 8:50:40 PM)
PHILADELPHIA — Kristaps Porzingis’ long road back from a torn ACL is about to begin.
(Monday, February 12, 2018 6:21:00 AM)
A Long Island basketball coach is a finalist for the Junior Knicks Coach of the Year award, for his work with a youth league that welcomes children of all abilities and aims to keep players off the streets.
[NYTimes] Carry-On: What Joel Embiid Can’t Travel Without (Tuesday, February 13, 2018 10:00:30 AM)
The all-star basketball player always brings his PlayStation, ChapStick and cologne.
[NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: Milos Teodosic Is for Real, Even if That Cheeseburger Story May Not Be (Monday, February 12, 2018 7:59:09 AM)
The 30-year-old N.B.A. rookie from Serbia is producing plenty of highlights as a Los Angeles Clipper. But stacks of beef for breakfast? No way, he says.
156 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2018.02.13)”
Watched a bit of the 1st half last night and man…. did Frank look just awful. Fouls, turnovers, giving up the dribble too early. I guess that’s what you get at 19 years old after he played one of his better games the night before.
Mudiay – it’s quite possible I’ve never seen someone navigate picks as poorly as he does. Any simple pick and Mudiay ends up 3 strides behind his man, and that’s not an exaggeration. How is that even possible? And this has been mentioned before, but his jumper form really needs work. He does this weird leg kick thing when shooting and rarely ever has his balance. The fact that he shoots 80% from the line suggests that the potential might be there, but Hornacek needs to pull out his ol’ shooting coach hat and really work with him.
I’d like to think that Mills and Perry swapped 2nd round picks in order to stealth tank and that Mudiay is the Tank Commander, because I have sinking feeling that that is what the result will be. He’s still really young but even after 2 games you can see why teams are still interested in him AND why the Nuggets gave up on him. He really does have special court vision and he’s a superlative athlete at the PG position — but there’s just a lot to fix. We need to hire a developmental coach so badly.
btw don’t look now but we’re only 2 games behind Chicago for #8. Crazy there’s only 1.5 games separating the top 7. There could be some serious tankage happening across the league in April or even before.
I love how tankathon.com has win streaks in red (like it’s a bad thing) and long losing streaks in green lol
Yeah he’s also terrible navigating off the ball screens and in general he completely zones out when he’s defending off the ball. The best case scenario for a Knick Mudiay team imo would be a lineup like Mudiay/Frank/Dotson/Jaren Jackson/KP where you literally switch everything. That should minimize his getting lost on both on and off ball screens. Also a switch everything defense if you have the players to pull it off has a nice simplicity and power to it.
On offense you spread the floor spotting-up potential snipers like Frank and Dotson. Frank’s shooting 34% from 3 which is great for a 19yo. Someone posted the stat that Mudiay is in 99th percntile on passing out of ISO sets. Letting him bust it to the rim in spread offense (no picks) might be the best way to optimize this strength. That said, I’m most surprised by how slow Mudiay is getting to the rim. In all of the highlights I’ve watched, I haven’t found a single one where he takes it to the rim and makes a layup before help arrives. He seems to be all change of pace and hesitation.
We could test drive this scenario right away with a lineup of Mudiay/Frank/Dotson/Lance/Kornet. I’m very impressed by Kornet. He might be mobile enough to pull it off on defense. He’s very adept positioning himself in the right spot and he shows nice box out technique on his rebounding.
@3 – I like how you conveniently left out our $71MM man lol
The one thing I can say about Timmy is that at least the dude really cares. In addition even during this terrible shooting stretch he’s averaging 4.6 rebounds and 2.9 assists per 36, so he hasn’t been a total zero.
The most interesting team in this year’s playoffs to me will be the Raptors. They remind me a bit of that early 2000s Pistons team. Ten of the their players have BPMs > 1.0 (note Ibaka is not one of them) and only Lowry and Miles are in their 30s. If they could attach a 1st round pick (presuming they have one) to Ibaka and dump his contract on a team like Hawks, Nets or Phoenix, they might be able to match VanVleet and Nogueira offers this summer and maybe not go too deep into luxury tax.
Tim Hardaway Jr. yelled out an obscenity. He wasn’t angry at the media but himself. And he let it be known once he began his salty postgame interview.
er is Timmy!
At the very least, Frank can always become a defensive specialist, even as a bench guy. Think a shorter Aminu. I’m sure he can learn to make set jumpers (ideally 3-pointers) and work his passing to a solid level. He’ll also fill out a bit, so he’ll be able to effectively guard the 1-3 positions.
I’m looking at that as a worst-case scenario, although he still has some improving to do to get to that. And it’s not exactly what you want from your lottery pick.
I don’t have a lot of expectations from Mudiay. I don’t dislike him, but chances are pretty slim that we’ll sign him to his next contract. He’s certainly no reason to pass on Trae Young if he falls into our laps.
As far as Junior goes, he just has to shoot through his slump. It would be great if he could focus on D. He’s also our best driver/finisher and should be doing that more anyway. I’d put him with Frank in a two wing system. I’d like to see those guys out there more with Burke and a rim defender or two. I know Burke isn’t amazing on defense, but I’m more into what he’s been doing than what Mudiay brings.
I’m not sure about why we’re worried about Mudiay. He’s a masterful tank commander and can be fun while doing that. Win-win, am I right? He’s not part of our future. Let’s enjoy the experience.
all timmy really needs to do is just lay off the pull up 3s for a bit… he’s shooting a career low in 3s in what is also a career low in assisted 3%…. so this is likely a combo of shot selection and a cold streak…. which is probably just him psyching himself out….
he is rounding out his game(career highs in rebs/ast/stls) which is a good sign but he should take this opportunity to drive to the basket more… the guy is a house in transition and finishes well at the hoop but he doesn’t do it as often as he should….
Hmm a #8 pick with a strong work ethic who’s not a head case and:
> Shoots >=37% from 3
> Is above average defender able to guard 1-3 positions
> Has some playmaking skills, combo guard type
I’ll take that any day from my #8 pick and be very happy! The problem here is everybody wants him to be a pure 1 guard and that’s looking bleak. He needs to works on his handle and outside shooting this summer, both of which are a prerequisite to driving more which will be important whether he ends up playing the 1 or 2 or 3.
We’re really reaping the consequences of our total lack of a strategy in recent years. Our ‘a bit of everything’ approach – trying each summer to immediately build a playoff team then semi-tanking to a late lotto pick once it becomes apparent we’re not good enough… basically means we’re saddled with multiple playoff-team-sized contracts with no cap flex and not a playoff calibre team. We’ve not committed to a rebuild so we’ve had picks but too few and too low – meaning we’re all pinning massive hopes on the one lotto pick we do have other than KP and being frustrated when he turns out not to be immediately as good as we might like. It’s really frustrating.
The reality is, lotto picks flame out all the time. I hope Frank doesn’t and it’s way too early to say, but he may. If you’re going to rebuild fully through the draft you need more tickets to play. Philly badly missed on multiple high picks but still has at least 2 foundational pieces through the lottery, plus some role players. But that’s because they played the odds…
He’s a damn rookie PG!! Lay off of him for two and a half seasons. If his pluses right now are, as Zanzibar said, 3-point shooting, defending, and playmaking, that’s pretty damn good. He’s not Steph Curry.
If you want to complain, direct your attention towards his opposite, Enes Kanter, who does fill up the box sheet, and usually ends up on the lower end of the +/- for the night. Or towards the Jack/Lee/Lance/O’Quinn lineup that stabilizes things enough to get us a win sometimes.
I should perhaps have been clearer – I ABSOLUTELY am not close to calling Frank a bust. I agree it is way too early and he has shown some very positive signs as well as facing some challenges.
I’m just saying, what we’re doing is not really ‘rebuilding through the draft’ but more ‘trying to rebuild on the fly and still ending up with the odd pick we hope turns out to be lightning in a bottle’. I think that partly explains why expectations are so high and people want to see results from Frank so soon.
This may change in the next couple of ears if Perry is serious. But the very last moves Mills madebefore getting Perry on board we’re THJ (win now move gone wrong) and Baker (who even knows – there’s not even a sarcastic category to place on that decision) so I don’t hold out huge hope.
Also to complain about, how the f is Ntilikina supposed to “play with more confidence” if every turnover ends with him getting yanked??
I actually thought Hornacek let him play through a bunch of mistakes in the 1st half last night. there was that awful live ball turnover to McConnell which led to a fast break layup, a couple bad fouls, etc.
Hey, I’m fine with Frank being a future wing. The problem is, he’s sucked at that so far too. If he becomes a solid 3 and D wing… great! That’ a fine enough pick at #8. It will just take a lot to get him to that. I’m not even talking about the point guard skills yet.
I don’t neccasarily want Frank to be the primary ball handler long term. If we can find a playmaking wing( Luka pls) that lets Frank stay at PG defensively then that would be ideal.
Guys. Frank is, best case, a large Patrick Beverley. Which would be huge at the 8th pick. Worst case is a 10-minute defensive specialist which meh but, well, it could be worse. Have patience. He’s never going to be the playmaker who breaks defenses. But he can be the one who disrupts other offenses.
in regards to frank… turning it over in the flow of $hit is whatever… when you are handing, yes literally handing the ball to the other team, come on now… thats just flat out horrendous play… that is a lack of focus, lack of awareness…its all the stuff you should be bringing regardless of talent level… any of us would not just hand it over like that… if there are basketball deficiencies, then i agree, let them play out, let him learn… but you cannot be so “weak” in those situations and not get punished for it… sorry…
You have a developing PG, Frank, who may become good but needs confidence and minutes. So what do you do? Bring a horrible PG to take away his minutes and crush his confidence. Great strategic thinking.
well yea… jarrett jack has got to go
Frank was awful last night but I think it is waaaaaaayyyy too early to decide what his ceiling will be. Will he be Michael Jordan? No. But there’s a lot of space between bench defensive specialist and Michael Jordan. He’ll probably end up somewhere in between.
It’s just hard to find a comp for Frank and so we really have no idea what to expect. He’s REALLY young, came from France, and really tall, which presumably means he needs more time to grow into what body will be. This isn’t Kyrie, or Marbury, or even Kobe – guys who got to play exactly their role from the time they were kids. Frank played off the ball in France, not many minutes there, probably highly discouraged from taking the ball and trying to drive into the teeth of the defense every time. It was defer defer defer in Europe for him.
Body and game wise he’s probably more analogous to Shaun Livingston, who was terrible as a rookie. injuries aside, it took Livingston a while to figure out his game. Probably will be the same with Frank. We have many years for him to figure it out before we have to decide whether he was a good pick or not.
The horrendous strategic thinking is in the head of Hornacek. Mudiay is never gonna steal Frank’s minutes. But what good does to Frank’s resolve the fact that THJ gets all those minutes while playing like shit and he gets yanked after two boneheaded errors but a lot of effort on defense? Not to mention the horrible defense of Jack. Or the utter uselessness of Lance Thomas on offense.
I don’t know why but Hornacek is way in over his head in managing this roster (note aside: I never had any idea of how drop dead gorgeous his daughter Abby is. I feel like there might be something about the theory that Willy um… got intimate with her XD).
Current consensus view on our rebuild
1. KP – mediocre on box score models. that must mean he’s bad
2. Mudiay – sucks.
3. Frank – is not a PG
4. Hardway – overpaid and can’t make a shot.
5. Dotson – who knows what Dotson can do. our coach is too dumb to play him.
6. Kornet – lmao
7. Hicks – who?
8. Kanter – is he even part of the rebuild or just taking up space until his contract is up?
Wait until out pick this year comes out next year looking like Josh Jackson and is immediately called a bust.
Well, Strat, it’s not like that consensus is that far from the truth…
But you know what? At the beginning of the season (well, after those terrible 0-3 start) I remember thinking while watching games “Hell yeah, I don’t care if they win or lose, I like the way they compete!”. And it disappeared more or less 30 games in. That’s on the coach much more than it is on the players. So, while I don’t think a good coach will transform Mudiay, Hornacek’s shortcomings are shaping that consensus a lot.
Frank is what, the second youngest player in the NBA? And he spent last season playing off the ball for a mediocre French team. What did you all expect?
Why do you think that? He’s an above average defender and maybe has the potential to be elite. He was elite at catch-and-shoot in that French League and is shooting 34% from 3 as a 19yo rookie which is excellent. He probably has better court vision than most wings. So it’s not a long way at all to go for him to be an above average 3&D wing. So his floor as a wing is high IMO and his ceiling would then be a function of his ability to drive/finish and shoot off the dribble. Knicks should waive Jack, give all the 1 guard minutes to Mudiay and Burke, and play Frank off the ball for the rest of this season.
I too, thought Frank needed time to develop.
But, he has absolutely no feel for the game.
– never keeps his dribble
– passes to the wrong guys at the wrong times
– repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly makes lazy passes that get stolen for easy layups (how much playing time does he need to figure that out)
– plays with no confidence
While most NBA players probably started playing basketball at a very young juvenile age, my guess is Frank started playing when he was older. He looks lost on offense.
Frank has been playing basketball his whole life and professionally since he was 15.
Average a triple double? 🙂
Mudiay is one of the missing puzzle parts.
He has all the tools.
What he needs is elite level guidance (J. Kidd/S. Nash) – can be borderline all-star.
Big strong athletic – Pro size
Good handle, plays with his head up, sees and hits open men.
Acts like a floor general!!!
Makes Frank tradable for a package with KOQ for a good, young wing.
I pretty much agree with Zanzibar.
Frank was not drafted because he has the talents and skills to become a top traditional PG. He was drafted because he has the skills and talents to excel in the triangle. He should mostly be playing off the ball while also developing his handle and other physical skills. My best guess is that he’s probably going to wind up being an above average playing making wing that can rebound, knock down 3s at around a 40% clip, score a little off the dribble, and defend at a very high level. He’s going to be a very good player. He’s just not going to become an elite traditional PG.
I predict that if we are patient and actually develop this kid, in 3-4 years we are going to love him.
hoolahoop – I think this is the 2nd thread where you’ve made this “guess” that Frank didn’t start playing ball until he was older. A simple Google search would let you know that is not the case.
Mudiay is one of the missing puzzle parts.
He has all the tools.
What he needs is elite level guidance (J. Kidd/S. Nash) – can be borderline all-star.
when people say stuff like this it reminds me of the first time you realize that what looks like blue to you might look like red to someone else and you’ll never know the truth (except we will and mudiay sucks)
@32
That seems to be a better role for Frank. My concern is how lost he looks compared Burke who have a much better feel and body language on the court.
If he could knock down 3’s with at a higher rate he may become a decent player. He’s never going to be great.
And I am colorblind, go figure
Frank Ntilikina is probably going to end up as the Draymond Green of shooting guards. I can see him as the best passer, rebounder, and defender at the two guard spot with passable offensive creation ability but the ability to shoot 3s in the high 30s. If you’re getting 11/6/7 from Frank Ntilikina and he’s wrecking games on the defensive side of the ball, that’s a very useful player. He’s the Jason Kidd/Chauncey Billups type of shooting guard.
Pretty much what we’ve gotten.
moving frank to sg is literally waving the white flag and basically stamping his ticket out to europe…. the idea of spending a lottery pick on a pg and then proceed to park him in the corner all game is not really a good development strategy….
it’s quite horrible actually and would signal that the front office has absolutely no idea what they drafted … have no idea what he’s deficient in… have no plan on trying to fix it…. and don’t want to fix it…
if we’re not committed to our prospects and giving them all the resources we can so they can succeed… then we have more issues than just frank… and we should be concerned about what’s going to happen to any other pick that we get….
Hey guys, two PGs lineups are a common thing since 2011
A PG that can’t hold his dribble and move around the court with the ball is not a PG.
Have you ever seen Patrick Beverley play?
Hornicek recognizes that Mudiay is a much stronger player than Frank. Soon, he’ll be the starting PG.
Frank may develop, or he may not. All super-rosy projections at this point re: his development are based on wishful thinking, nothing more. Frank has never experienced sustained excellence of any kind at any level. And as we move forward, I’m hearing less and less optimism about him becoming a decent PG from the KB crowd. Right now, he looks like he will eventually become a decent rotation 3-and-D wing, but that’s about it.
Moving Frank to shooting guard is a great idea. I don’t understand why having a utility guy (passing/rebounding/defense/3 point shooting) is a bad thing at the two when most shooting guards are pretty bad in the NBA. That’s how you add value to the worst position in the NBA.
If things work out the way I’d like, the Knicks will draft Michael Porter Jr to play 4/3 and then next year we’ll score big with RJ Barrett to play 3/2. Playing something like PG to be named/Ntilikina/Barrett/Porter Jr/Porzingis going into 2020 would be worth the losing, and it would put Frank on a team where he could be the low usage do-it-all player that he should thrive as.
@ ptmilo:
Why do you say that?
@46
For serious man? Have you seen his advanced stats?
You’re living in a KB bubble.
Oh, that’s it.
Forget that. He’s starting new here. Watch him play.
Mudiay plays the point with authority. Very good court vision and hits open men at their spots, good pro size, good handle. He knows the position.
Mudiay just needs to cut down on his errors and clean up his game a little. If he does that, he’ll be close to an all star level PG.
Mudiay is a career .324 three point shooter and career .428 TS.
I have no illusions about the guy. We’re taking a flyer on him, but it’s just as probable that he continues to be a horrible a shooter or maybe improves a little. The only player I can think of that shoots that horribly and gets major minutes is Marcus Smart, and he’s a crazy good defender on an elite team.
“If Mudiay somehow becomes good, he will be good.”
I don’t know if Emmanuel Mudiay has good handle for a point guard.
having a good sg is not a bad thing… but why the hell did we use the #8 pick in the draft for a sg and then commit a whole lot of money into the position on top of all the other money we committed? the plan was to have him be a pg…. if there’s no plan to follow through on that… that’s not a plan… it’s the exact opposite….
and sg is not the worst position… once you get past the top 15 players the positions are of comparable quality… the 30th best sg is probably something like courtney lee or kcp …. the 30th best pg is probably tj mcconnell/terry rozier….
but the fact is that… low usage shooting guards are a dime a dozen… you can pick up a dleaguer on a 10 day contract to do what frank does anytime you want…. and we already have long term money committed to a youngish sg already….
what we have is a gaping need for a pg which we already spent a draft pick on…. there’s absolutely no good reason to not give him every opportunity to see the plan through… i mean seriously… you can move him to sg anytime you want… what reason is there to eject on it now?
You’re living in a KB bubble.
harsh but fair. but it’s a bubble with league pass and I’ve see many of mudiay’s 4300 minutes and in them he has shown a marked inability to finish (on the the left side just forget it and do something fun instead like plan a picnic) or make good decisions. i kind of agree that he is an okay passer, but only if the defense isn’t very good or tricky. I don’t agree that his handle is good, in traffic and against pressure I would say below average.
people are excited that he is shooting 38pct from from 3 this year but 100 shots is a tiny sample. the evidence goes the other way; he’s taken 1000 nba jump shot and he’s at 34pct from 2 and 32pct from 3. And that 38 is now 35 after just six misses with us. Free throws mean little and history is littered with 80pct free throw shooters like rose who aren’t good jump shooters.
And none of that even mentions his biggest flaw which is that’s he’s a uniquely bad defensive guard. you can chart drose’s drunken path around the PNR or in frenetic switch situations in his year at MSG and it will trace mudiay’s portrait. I agree he’s so young it wouldn’t be crazy to see major improvements, but he needs that just to be average. Borderline all-star seems nuts to me.
@53 I think you’re being a little too binary by saying pg or hug the corner. You don’t have to be Chris Paul or Bruce Bowen. Plenty of guys generate value from their handling and passing even thought their best use isn’t always as the primary handler on the floor breaking the press and starting the offense. guys like Brent Barry and batum and iggy and Craig ehlo had elements of that. I have no idea what frank will be, but I kinda doubt he will be a pure point guard. I also doubt it is really the knicks’ choice whether he becomes one. but as long as they don’t stick baby in a corner or on the bench, I think his best use if there is one will become obvious.
I liken Mudiay’s position to a QB with good size, skills and potential that’s poorly rated because he makes bad decisions too often. Stop throwing the ball up for grabs!
Mudiay needs to stop taking the bad shots, stop going to the hoop driving into a crowd, and stop turning the ball over. These things are very learnable. It’s about discipline, not physical talent.
If he doesn’t learn, yes he’ll suck.
But if he cuts down his errors, the knicks PG problem is solved.
Frank is shooting .337 from three… not even close to nba average. Could that improve? Of course. But he also has a .401 TS. That’s abysmal. He needs to be able to make other open shots too.
I’ll say Mudiay looks to have above average handles and court vision, but he’s not much of a shooter (that form on threes?!) and he’s completely vexed by the pick and roll on defense.
I wish both of them could go work on their games in the G League, but that’s not how it works with high draft picks, I guess.
Frank’s problems with scoring efficiency are related to his seeming inability to take shot’s at the rim. His 3 point shooting is fine.
The problem is, the modern NBA game is pretty heavily based on two types of shots: dunks and three-pointers. Mudiay stinks at making both of those shots. He can’t shoot the three well and he’s a terrible finisher. So most shots that he takes are going to be “the bad shots.” This is how you end up with a .420 eFG%. The way for him to improve is to start doing things that he has never shown an ability to do. This is like an “if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle” argument you’re making here. Sure, if Mudiay starts playing like a completely different kind of player, he might be decent. I mean, I guess that could happen.
Defensively, he’s kind of the opposite of Frank: he dies on pick and rolls rather easily. Poor pick and roll defense + inability to finish + weak outside shooter = not a very good profile in the modern NBA game.
with frank it is binary… all those guys you mentioned had hyper efficient games…. and it started with a 2p fg% of >=.500…. frank is in another universe altogether…. he cannot play that type of game and i doubt it’ll ever be possible…
the way we use him as a sg is literally parking him in the corner while the other pg runs the pnr…. that’s exactly how we are using him now and i have no reason to believe that’s not going to continue…
the only hope to extract the most value out of him is hoping that he has middling efficiency while providing extraordinary value elsewhere…. something like what rubio and rondo have done…. or eventually become like kemba who overcome poor effiency to now really good….
in any case.. the path is there at pg although it’s still a slim chance…. at sg he has a path but the way ppl are envisioning him to play at sg is basically freely available in the dleague… justin holiday does exactly that and we got him for nothing…. we got baker for nothing… we got dotson for nothing…
why invest in a lotto pick to do what we spent considerably less on?
@59 – i do agree with pretty much everything you wrote, but the one mitigating factor about Mudiay is that he appears to be quite good at getting his teammates corner 3’s and shots at the rim. Bear with me here as there is a lot of extrapolation going on—
per NBAminer, which breaks down assists by what kind of shot they led to — you can add columns together to show basically “assists that led to layups/dunks/3s”.
Not surprisingly, the top 4 are Harden, Westbrook, CP3, Lebron, followed by Wall, Ben Simmons.
Interestingly though — if you normalize for minutes played (had to eyeball this because you can’t get them all on the same page in NBAminer), it looks like Mudiay assists on about 4.7 layups/dunks/3’s per 36, which would put him in the top 30 or so in the league. Add to that that Mudiay usually plays with the ball dominant Barton and also with Jokic, and often the offense runs through those guys.
Anyway, that’s a long way of saying that Mudiay is pretty good at creating those kinds of shots for others. He’s just not good at doing those shots himself. He would be much better if he could do those things himself. And defend a PNR better than a small child.
I hope as much as anyone that Mudiay turns into a solid player but he’s a long shot. We are so starved for PG play that Mudiay and Burke seem like Kidd and Paul to us.
At this point I’d give Frank way more chance to be an above average player in two years than Mudiay. I said it before the draft that Frank’s most likely positive outcome is tall Beverley. He has shown glimpses of better passing but it hasn’t been consistent. I think it’s that or maybe he can turn into a guard version of Batum.
If your argument is that a veteran player could be good if he learns to X, Y and Z, it’s reasonable to ask why he hasn’t done that yet in thousands of minutes of playing time.
If you say it’s because of scheme, fit or coaching, it’s reasonable to ask why you think it would be any better on the Knicks, one of the worst franchises in all of pro sports.
If you continue talking after this point, you should stop talking and keep your stupid comments in your pocket.
I think saying that Mudiay could be a borderline all-star might be in the top 5 dumbest speculative comments on this site’s history. It’s like saying Bargnani could be a good rebounder or Carmelo could be a great point forward in the Triangle. It’s sheer stupidity. Defective brain. BBIQ of a toddler. Stop posting.
Frank was drafted to slowly develop into a triangle guard over the next 4-5 years (to go along with KP, Willy, Dotson, and Baker), future draft picks, and any players we picked up in free agency and via trade over time. He was not going to have a key role right away.
Mills took over, the triangle was eliminated, we suddenly needed a traditional PG, Frank was nominated even though he didn’t have the requisite skill set, Mills added Hardaway at SG even though we had Lee, and Mills/Perry declared that the way to rebuild was with young players and picks instead of a mix of draft picks, free agents, and trades.
The Melo trade created an imbalance at C, but added a good 2nd round draft, a player that netted us a look at Mudiay, and a smaller bad contract in Kanter vs. Melo.
Now that we have eliminated the imbalance at C by trading Willy and exiling Noah, we are creating an imbalance at off guard.
That’s sort of where we are.
Just for the record, Mudiay’s 3P% is 32.4% lifetime, but it’s 35.2% this year. Given his age, there is some reason to hope it’s not an upside aberration. It may represent progress – with more come in the years to come.
He has to work on finishing at the rim and defense. Those are the 2 obvious major problem areas. I have a tough time believing he won’t get better at the rim over time given his age. I just don’t have a clue as to whether he’ll go from bad to less bad or actually get good. The bigger problem is defense. Even though he’s young and many young players have issues defensively, he’s been around for 3 years. He’s not a rookie.
Frank was a lottery pick in nearly every mock before the draft so he’s not just a triangle point. The Mavs desperately wanted him considering all of their moves to accomodate him.
His knee has been bothering him and this is right around the time that rookies hit the wall. If we’re still having these conversations in 2020 then I’ll start to worry.
A 6’5-6 Patrick Beverley is well worth the 8th pick in the draft.
@66
I agree that other teams liked him. That does not mean any of them intended to play him at PG. I can’t remember which NY beat writer, but one them has been quoting scouts and other sources saying we were using him incorrectly by trying to make him a traditional PG and should be playing him off the ball instead. He can probably be a PG, but he’s not going to be one of the flashy, beat you off the dribble, athletic, scoring , PGs we have in the league now. He played off the ball in France.
Do “gravity” and “positive feed back loops” make the top 5?
The fact that Mudiay’s 3Pt% for this season dropped from 38 to 35 in just 2 games tells you all you need to know about the validity of his 3pt% for this season. I mean, if he hit 4 less 3 pters across 50 games this season in Denver, his % would be about 32% and we’d all say he hasn’t improved at all.
This reminds me of the people saying if Timmy could shoot 38%-40% on 3’s, despite being a career 35% from 3, he’d be worth his contract. It’s like a perpetual groundhog day. You could make a killing sell shit to pig farmers on here.
I think the previous goal/hope was to put George Hill instead of Hardaway in the cap space that was opened by Rose. Hill would have been an upgrade at PG, a good fit for what they were trying to do, and would have added a good veteran mentor and role model for Frank for 2-3 years. The contract would have more less been on the same timeline as Noah and Lee where they’d all come off at around the same time when whatever mix of younger players we drafted or brought in would be ready to take over and supplemented with more free agents at that time.
The plan really hasn’t change that much other than adding Hardaway instead of Hill, creating some roster imbalances trying to undo Melo and get something back instead of buying him out, and stressing young players more (though not enough for most people here) .
@70
It’s not like it’s unheard of that some players become better shooters after 21 or even after 25. There are even some elite PGs that did it. We can at least allow for possibilities in the analysis.
See, that only took me a couple of minutes
Sorry to quote myself, but this is too funny in light of the “borderline all-star” post.
Mudiay? We talking about Mudiay?
If you read what I said there was an if. His TS% and efg% were both good while he was shooting 35-36% from three in Atlanta. If he shoots over 50% from 2 and 35-36% from 3 like he did in Atlanta he is a fine player. I was not expecting his 3pt% to improve I was simply stating that that was where we had a chance of getting excess value since it was the most likely thing to go up.
I still think his contract is fine, we overpaid but now it’s about okay value. The problem I had then and still have is he solves a problem we don’t have and didn’t have then. That’s bad when the roster has/had so many problems.
Despite the fact that I was very much against the Hardaway signing, he did play better in Atlanta and there was some chance he would continue to improve his shooting. Right now that signing looks terrible, but before the injury to his leg, he was playing well enough to not consider it another sure fire long term Knicks disaster.
Now he’s going through a terrible slump, but the chances he’s going to continue playing this poorly are around 0%. We simply do not know whether the current slump is some terrible aberration, related to the layoff, or just simply part of what Hardaway is. We’ll find out. But to say with certainty he sucks and can’t improve his shooting at 25 is almost as speculative as saying he can get his TS% to 60%. They are both possibilities at 25.
THJ wasn’t really playing that great before the injury, and he’s been terrible since coming back from the injury. That contract is not looking good at all. Only runs through 2021 tho!
You aren’t going to get me to defend his game or that foolish contract, but I wasn’t losing a lot of sleep over him being part of the team before the injury. I thought it was a bad move and still do, but it’s not hopeless.
had a chance to catch the first three quarters of the game – never thought i’d say this – but, i kinda like watching beasley play now…he seems to be putting more effort in to his defense and rebounding…and, he is crazy creative on offense…
yeah, frank is looking pretty overwhelmed at times out on the court – a lot of times…hopefully at some point the game will slow down for him…when it does – he’ll be a muy beuno player…
i know kanter is a big negative on defense – but, there must be some benefit to his offensive rebounding in that it allows the other four guys out on the court to get back quickly in transition – at least in theory)…
this was only the first time which i’ve really watched mudiay play…he does have some good size, and seems to be able to keep his dribble and penetrate…not sure why we haven’t released jack yet…
I guess a good discussion topic is whether we want Beasley back.
We’ll prob be up against the cap so we will have to use an exception to bring him back. I think he might get some taxpayer-MLE-type offers from other teams — would people be interested in matching that? I for one would feel ok about 3 years $15MM for him. Any longer or more $ and I would not do it. Maybe $6MM AAV I could live with.
I don’t think he’s a guy that you can rely on as a starter but as a bench guy — averaging 22/9/2.5 and TS 56.4 that’s pretty good at that price.
I’m ok for another year of Beasley. Nothing more. It just doesn’t make sense to have him on our cap on 2019-20.
my biggest concern with beasley at the beginning of the year was chemistry – i just thought he was a nut job…
from everything i’ve read this year, he seems to be well liked in the locker room and out on the court…
@ Cock J
Being loud and rude doesn’t make you right. I’ve read all the dumb shit that you post.
But it explains some of the group think that goes on here.
By “groupthink,” do you mean “being right about every obviously-bad move the Knicks have made in the last ten years?”
I don’t know how anyone who’s watched Frank play defense could think he hasn’t been playing basketball since he was young. His off ball work is great on D. The reason he posts relatively good +/- numbers despite an empty box score is that he’s almost always part of any comeback runs we do. He’s disrupting the opposing offense and forcing them into bad passes/shots ect. He can’t do it consistently yet but that will hopefully develop with time. He’s had a totally reasonable year, with little reason for anybody to be ‘concerned’ about him given that PGs take ages to develop and we knew going in that he needed a lot of work on offense. Even his (still horrible) offense has improved markedly since the beginning of the year. All these hot takes have been sitting on the stove too long.
Since Donovan Mitchell’s 40 point explosion against the defensive juggernaut Suns, he’s 32-91 or 35%. Last night he attempted 28 shots and made 9, over the last 3 games he attempted 73 shots! (made 27 of them)
Yes, he’s talented, and yes, he’s having a better season than Frank and some of the other rookies, but the guy basically has a license to chuck away without repercussions. And Stephen A. wants to give him rookie of the year over Simmons. smh.
it’s easy to forget when discussing on this site just how bad the knicks truly are, and, have been for many years…
just about everyone here is passionate about the knicks, so, it’s easy to assume a lot of frustration and angst is bound to creep in on our posts…
was playing nba 2k with my god son – and told him i’d give him a break by picking the worst team in the game – the current knicks (normally i’ll play with the early 70’s version)…he asked – “isn’t that your favorite team”…dispirited i replied – “yes, it is”…
hard to be upbeat and still a knicks fan…
You fathered a god?
Frank, I would want Beasley back at the price you suggest. I think he’s worth more than the minimum and will get offers if we don’t offer something like what you suggest.
Before they traded for the greatest offensive player to play any sport, the Knicks had 9 consecutive seasons with a negative SRS; that player led the team to an incredible 0.48 SRS by the end of the season.
They then surprisingly posted their only decent SRS seasons when they had overrated Tyson Chandler clogging the paint and forcing his teammates to take difficult shots. Once he got injured and left to deflate the franchise that had carried him to an NBA title, the Knicks achieved better spacing and synergy and began a return to their comfort zone: five consecutive negative-SRS seasons.
I could leave reason behind and just predict that every move the Knicks make brings them closer to the cellar. Mudiay is another transaction in a long tradition of signing and trading for the worst players in the NBA for no discernible purpose but abject stupidity. There is no defense of the Mudiay trade, none. They could have selected a guard from the undrafted FA pile at random and achieved roughly the same “upside.” Sure, that player might not be a 6’5″ PG, but then again, I’m not sure that the 6’5″ PG in question even registers as an actual basketball player. He is a scrub if there ever was one.
I like Frank and want him do well.
He plays good defense and I love that he plays without ego, no hero ball.
But, on offense, he just looks lost a lot of the time, very unsure of himself. He needs to play with more purpose and confidence.
If you’re serious, you truly don’t have a friggin clue of what you’re talking about. Talk about dumbest posts of all time. Here’s your winner.
Yes, obviously. He’s improved that some from the beginning of the season, but still has a long way to go. It remains ridiculous to suggest he’s a bust, or that he’ll never be more than a spot up shooter. That’s just not a knowable thing at this point. Frank is fine. He’s playing perfectly fine for where he is in his development. If he’s still the same player at the ASB in 2020 we’ll need to be transitioning his role to off bench d specialist. Till then keep playing him like we expect the world.
This team is 4-11 since Ron Baker got hurt. 2 wins over the Nets, 1 over the Suns, and 1 over Utah.
You have to be a real dummy to think that these are the numbers of a scrub, I guess:
BPM -4.2
VORP -2.3
WS48 -0.017
WP48 -0.077
TS% .463
As one of the posters that frequently squares off against Jowles, I have to admit that this is a true statement.
That said, I think the Mudiay trade is totally fine. McDermott wasn’t coming back. It’ll be a 2nd round pick in the mid-late 40s most likely that goes for Mudiay, and that’s an ok price to pay for a lottery ticket IMHO.
I wrote this yesterday, and still think it’s true. Mudiay really feels like Lance Stephenson to me – a guy who was just completely horrifically awful until his age 22+ season. One can only hope.
Overall there is very little downside to this trade, especially given that even if Mudiay plays as badly as he has, it only helps the tank. That’s not why Mills/Perry made the trade, but it’s something.
In my opinion, the Knicks offered a new lottery ticket for one that had been scratched off and shown winnings of $0. It was a minor bad trade, but still a bad trade. There’s no reason to give up a 2nd rounder for a player like Mudiay. He is one of the worst players in the league this decade. He should be playing in China.
That says it all.
Do you have any idea of the shortcomings in each of those numbers?
Do you watch games?
stephenson was horrible in his early years but he got a total of 500 minutes @10mpg… he had a .400 ft% and a .133 3p%…. it was likely he wasn’t as bad as he showed.. especially when he had strong secondary numbers
that’s not the case with mudiay…. he’s logged over 4000 minutes so far and it’s all been really really bad….
I know, right? Those stats say it all: he sucks.
He can’t shoot, he can’t defend, and he turns the ball over a lot. Mostly he can’t shoot, which is important because shooting is important.
What games? You mean the spreadsheets?
My goodness.
How hope decays into fratricide in a blink on KB.
Scores of comments about a marginal NBA bench player turned potential Knicks starter.
Time for me to disappear for another year.
I’m actually with Jowles on this one. Mudiay is pathetic and has shown no real significant change in his game. And the Knicks suck at player development.
For him to succeed in NY would defy all reason and history.
Man; you guys are more down on Mudiay after 2 games than the Denver board was after 3 years of him.
He’s played 2 games here. he has 10 assists in one of them. he’s young. Give the guy a bit of a chance to be a serviceable NBA player.
Making these types of statements, you should never call anyone else’s post dumb. Really.
I’ve never really watched Mudiay much before. His numbers are pretty bad, certainly. Watching him these first two games, you can see some talent, but lots of flaws, too. His shooting, finishing, and D all look very flawed. As scouting reports say, he loses focus easily on D, vs. Frank who is alert, fights through screens, and even if beaten he looks for someone else to guard, etc. Mudiay just sort of slows down and drifts…yup, like DRose.
Some of you may laugh at this, but in watching last night there was a time when Mudiay was at the line to shoot a foul shot, but someone on the Knicks had blood on him or some such, and there was a long delay while Mudiay waited at the line. The camera stayed on him a long time. He remained there, kind of fidgeting, twitching, staring straight ahead, waiting for the ball to be given to him. As someone who taught a few teenagers with mild autism and has a son with Asperger’s, that immediately came to mind. Seemed very OCD-like.
I’m not saying this to be funny or mocking at all, but I wonder if the guy is somewhat autistic? That might explain how he drifts off on D, too, rather than just lack of effort.
Cock’s correct comment has me depressed. We’re never going to hear a guy say, once I got the opportunity to play with the Knicks, in that system, with that great organization and coaching staff behind me, I just blossomed.”
You’ll sooner hear “my arm got healthier after I got traded to the Mets”
Mudiay simply doesn’t know how to play the game of basketball. Great athlete, not player. Frank is the opposite. He’ll work on his game, gain confidence, and be a very good player in a year or two. He already changes games positively while barely being able to dribble. I don’t understand how coaches who have been in the league their whole lives look at Mudiay and say “damn that guy is good”. McBuckets could have been a role player for us on a reasonable deal – smart, can shoot… every team needs one of those guys. Shitty trade.
I don’t know what to think about Mudiay right now. In a way, I’m happy he’s a Knick because if anyone remembers, I was one of the few hoping that we’d draft him at 4 the year he was drafted. With his measurable, ability to get in the lane, and willingness to pass, I thought he’d bring a modern dimension to the triangle and would be a great fit. People talk about his hoops IQ, but he has to be a smart enough player for Larry Brown to want him. Remember- LB doesn’t give a shit about how athletic you are, you still have to play the right way. Much like the way I feel about Ntilikina, I thought at the very least that Mudiay could become a very good 2 way guard. Preferably a good PG, but a good 2 guard with those measurables and that skill set would be a damn good consolation.
I don’t know what happened in Denver, but I am glad that we didn’t pick him at 4. I don’t know whether it was the combination of coaching fit and expectations that changed him, but his confidence has clearly taken a hit. Even the form on his jumper has been affected. Maybe he was trying too hard to be the savior. Who knows? But if whatever happened in Denver had happened in NY, it would have been much worse.
Maybe Hornacek’s system and coaching style is a better fit. Maybe Perry unearths an even better coaching fit for these times with the plans to amass young talent accelerated. Who knows? One thing’s for certain though- I will be tuned in to see Ntilikina’s and Mudiay’s development from now until KP gets back. My hope is those 2 take a step up and someone like JJJ or Doncic(he’s big & athletic enough to play the 3 right?) fall in our laps. I still think Bagley is gonna end up goin #1, therefore making him a pipe dream for us. If we don’t land a top 5 pick and Bamba is there, I would love to add him as well. This is going to be an interesting offseason..
The Knicks haven’t done player development for a long time, since their history is to have traded all their picks and young players for veterans. So honestly, i’m not sure this is true.
TJ McConnel was undrafted after an outstanding senior season at Arizona and just posted a triple double against us (with six steals) last night. He’s turning into a solid if unspectacular bench player.
We should not be trading a 2nd for Mudiay. There are plenty of far more promising gambles you can roll the dice on.
I’ve read it all here now.
Our only hope is to draft a LeBron-level talent/basketball savant who will just run the whole team by himself. Maybe Doncic is that guy. The closest we got this century to that scenario was a 5-years-past-his-prime 40 year old Kidd.
I don’t mind Mudiay because well, he’s bad and we need a tank commander, so why the hell not. But it’s a recurrent issue about the Knicks taking this sort of useless gamble.
It’s one thing to just give a roster spot to a total unknown, like Spencer Dinwiddie, it’s another to take a gamble on a player we do have relevant solid data of him being terrible.
You can find value out of small deals like the Mudiay one, but this specific move shows a complete disregard for stats that have been proven to be at least useful in player evaluation and that is not a good sign. It shows perceived value and “celebrity” is more important in terms of deciding who to take gambles on than promising statistical profiles, and that sort of road is the one the Knicks have been walking on for the past decades.
Again, it’s not a big deal and it won’t fuck the team up or anything, it’s just why the hell this gamble on this specific guy instead of literally anything else.
^^^^^
This.
The only reason Mudiay is a good acquisition is because it helps the team lose as many games as possible from now through April 2019. There is no upside, only downside — and that’s a good thing for the franchise.
But since it’s the Knicks, they’ll probably re-sign him at 4/$40M after next year.
The only Knicks player I remember ever hearing say that was Jamal Crawford, back during the Larry Brown season. And tha was the worst coach and worst system we’ve been able to muster! (It ended with Brown on dialysis holding press conferences in the median of a highway because Isiah banned him from the practice facility:)
As long as we keep wheeling Frank out for meaningful minutes for the rest of the season, and we see a bit more of Kornet, Hicks and Dotson I am happy. It at the very least seems Jack’s minutes have been cut and there will be a rotation shakeup post ASG. Wait and see on that front.
I think it’s okay to be bully about Mudiay, but the issue is there is some pretty overwhelming evidence that he is pretty meh. Obviously has some of the tools to be serviceable, and if we end up with a solid rotation player then that’s a win, but I am not sure you can make some of the lofty predictions that have popped up at this stage.
Let’s just grab a beer and enjoy the shit show that will be the rest of the Knicks season.
The other thing that bothers me about the Mudiay gamble is precisely that it happened right after shipping Hernangomez away.
If we’re willing to take a gamble on a guy who has been crap for 3 seasons because of perceived upside, so much that we trade a 2nd rounder and a player for him, why the hell would we not keep a similarly aged young guy who’s playing bad?
Why not take the gamble that Hernangomez is actually closer to his rookie season than this season, when the front office is willing to gamble that Mudiay could be better than his current level? That’s the sort of annoying little Knicks move that I’ve grown to hate so much, it shows again no direction and no plan: are we stockpiling seconds, so that’s why we traded Hernangomez? Then why give up a second for Mudiay? If we think seconds are throwaways, so much that giving up one for Mudiay is fine, why trade Hernangomez for seconds way in the future?
I really can’t understand the reasoning other than “we traded Willy to please the coach we’re most likely firing in less than 6 months”.
howdy farfa …probably tmi – but, i might be shooting blanks…as far as i know – i’ve never had any kids of my own…gods or otherwise 🙂
was fortunate enough that someone whom i dated many years ago let me get close to her daughter whom was only one at the time i met her mom (she’s 16 now and drives me crazy)…even after her mom and i stopped dating – still was able to stay good friends and play a small part in her daughter’s life…
my god son is six years old and a pretty neat kid…may just be my best friend in the whole world…
i think mike kurylo himself mentioned it a while ago that he would never steer his child toward being a knick fan…i can definitely understand the sense to that…both the kids “loosely” have the warriors as their favorite team (understandably, they have just about the best stats in nba 2k)…it’s crazy – curry shoots about 50% from mid court – which actually isn’t all that far off…
i’ll tell ya – even with only having the kids one or two weekends a month – it still totally wears me out – i have no idea how real parents are able to survive and stay sane 🙂
much respect to all you real dads out there…
Jowles is an f’n idiot, Anyone with a brain could clearly see that the Knicks traded a second round pick for a guarantee of moving 2-3 spots up in the lottery. Every minute Mudiay takes away from Jack and Burke increases our chances of losing. Frank sucked just as bad at the 1, but his suckitude would be masked if Lee or TH2 (before his shot died a horrible death) got hot. Since PG developer extraordinaire Hornacek is predictably “intrigued” by the potential of a Mudiay-Ntilikina backcourt (The Stench Connection) we’ll win 4-5 more games, tops.
This was pure genius by Perry. In one clever move, we put ourselves in play for the #6 pick in a top-heavy draft. If ever there was a reason to burn a 2nd rounder, this was it.
Holy cats, Donnie, I forgot about that LB press conference. Batshit crazy.
The knee-jerk defense of the Mudiay trade is for one reason – he was a lottery pick. Same player and stats for a no-name D-league guy, and everyone would be asking why the hell we traded for him when we just brought up Trey, who’s a clearly superior player.
The only semi-rational defense for these moves is that there is a dire shortage of good PGs and that PG is a much more critical position to fill than traditional low-post non-defensive C, who are a dime a dozen.
the odds of that 2nd rd pick turning into a viable player is about the odds of mudiay turning into a viable player…. if we know what we know now and mudiay is in this draft… he’s very likely an early 2nd rd pick at the very least…. and mid to late 2nd rd picks are fighting with agents threatening to not sign anyway… the value is fairly low on those….
the trade in itself was not bad… mudiay isn’t great… but you don’t get great players with future mid 2nd rd picks…. you get players like mudiay…. the problem is that you should deal for him and have a plan on his development… i can’t say for certain that’s completely absent… but i highly doubt that’s the case….
This is what I love about Kblogger! Post 119 ends with
. Post 120 starts with
Don’t you guys see that all this losing is tearing us apart?
Happy Valentines’ Day, everyone!!!
This knee-jerk reaction isn’t completely illogical though right? Kevin Pelton (and others) have found that incorporating scouting consensus (Pelton does it based on a top-100 style draft list) improves NBA projections relative to just using translated box score stats. I’m not saying scouts are perfect (far from it) but there is some informational value in the fact that Mudiay was a high 1st round pick. Call it athleticism, or talent, or whatever, but I do believe that he has a better chance to improve than your D-league guy putting up the same NBA stats. It’s still a long-shot but I don’t think it’s right to completely discount those factors when you’re talking about a 21-year old.
Post #120 was obviously facetious. You can get a tank commander for $500k on a non-guaranteed. Z-man is a fool, but he isn’t an idiot. ; )
nah if mudiay was in the draft this year with the stipulation that he has only one contract year left of rookie scale he goes undrafted, assuming we have no picks anyway
I actually think Mudiay if everything breaks right could become a decent offensive player. His catch and shoot numbers are solid so his 3pt% could improve, he is a good passer so he could possibly be okay running an offense and players often take a jump in FG% at the rim around age 22 so his 2pt fg% could get better. The problem is he is a truly, spectacularly bad defensive player. So even if everything breaks right and he develops into a decent offensive player he will still be a terrible defender.
He measures out as one of the bottom 5 players in the NBA over the last three years on defense on every metric. Even if he improves defensively he has a long long way to go to just be mediocre. I hope I’m wrong but I have a hard time seeing much upside.
@118
Bruno, I’m on record as not liking the Willy trade…but maybe what they did is not that inconsistent. They did trade away a 2nd in the Mudiay deal (and I wish they did not), but they do still have two other picks in this draft (early 1st and likely early 2nd), so they figured that this year’s later 2nd is not that big of a deal.
The Knicks had no 2020 or 2021 seconds, so they restocked those. They recycled the picks needed to get will, for Willy. So, Even Steven (Mills). Again, I don’t like that, but I can see the logic in it.
Willy was like a lotto ticked that you hit on, but then give away for two more lotto tickets…
Others will tell you that Willy simply must have stunk in practice, so had to go…or he was doing H’s daughter…or they like Kornett better…or was hanging too much with Matt Harvey, or…
🙂
@130
I can see an argument for wanting to smooth out picks across multiple drafts, yeah, but it still smells like incompetence for me. If Mudiay was brought for basketball reasons (he’s a fine gamble to take in the sense that he has pedigree and might improve, which is the reasoning I see for Mills and Perry to want him), the same basketball reasons apply to Willy, except the fact of what Z-Man said that he plays a least desirable position.
It just feels to me that they got caught up on non-basketball reasons to deal Willy and I hate to see it, as we’ve been caught on this never ending cycle of overvaluing perceived upside on “bigger” names and ignoring potentially valuable less talked about players for so long.
Like I said, both deals are ok, they’re not deals to be desperate about or anything (the THJ deal, on the other hand…), but as always with the Knicks it’s those small moments that paint the picture of ineptitude that has been so prevalent around this franchise for so long.
If Emmanuel Mudiay only value to the Knicks is to make sure we never win more than 27 games while KP recovers from injury, than he’s the hero we needed all along.
In all seriousness, most people here know Mudiay is about as long a shot as long shots come. I’m more interested in his ability to offset Courtney Lee’s fine work (whatever Beasley and Kanter give us offensively they give back on the defensive end). In April when Tim Hardaway Jr turns into James Harden, we’ll need Mudiay to do what he does best.
Bruno Almeida is my spirit animal
Someone mentioned that DiAngelo Russell is showing signs of improvement on the Nets. Isn’t he an acquisition for the Nets sort of like Mudiay is for Knicks? I’m interested if he’s actually improving. If he can improve it should be possible for Mudiay to improve too.
I figure we traded Willy because he asked for a trade. The real problem is that means that they probably like Kanter enough to keep him around as a superior version of Willy. So we’re dumping more future money into the 5 spot instead of going for the more efficient value. That’ll be great.
And who knows, maybe Mudiay will resuscitate his career with the Knicks. I mean, playing here has really turned things around for KOQ, Beasley, Lance Thomas. My personal theory is that they improve here because they want to spend less time on the bench sitting with Rambis.
Cavs looking good. Really enjoyed LBJ spinning past Melo for a dunk
My wife would argue that I’m a swing man highly capable at both positions…
I think Mudiay tops out at Ray Felton eventually, but yeah, he might be able to out-tank even Devin Booker, who could easily have become a Knick if Cap’n Krazy had gotten his way.
@135
Well, he did ask for a trade and explained it was because he wasn’t getting minutes… minutes that should have been available for him from the beginning, and that would surely be available now without Porzingis.
And D’Angelo Russell sounds like a good comparison for Mudiay, specially because he’s also terrible. He hasn’t played much, I know, but a career low ts% just below .500 with a career high tov% on a dude who has never been a defender is hardly showing signs.
There was an article about how the Knicks were discouraged about Willy’s (public) pouting about not receiving minutes. They felt he did not respond well to the competition culture they were trying to install. I can’t seem to find the article about it now, but I thought that was an interesting nugget. He was 3rd string behind two guys who were both older and better basketball players than him, and he pouted and complained about how he needed to play above all else. I can see why you’d want to rid yourself of an attitude like that. I know this website is more numbers based, but there is humanity in sports too. Maybe Hernangomez would have responded poorly to being benched in his prime because KP needs to move to the 5. I agree it was still poor asset management but it probably explains the “why Mudiay and not Hernangomez” dialogue.
Must be fun to have Lebron on your team
Mudiay has improved every year by a reasonable amount. The problem is his starting point was so low (arguably the worst player of all time to ever be in an NBA rotation his rookie year) that even after improving quite a bit *more* than the average draft pick does, he’s still not NBA quality player. He’s also still 21, so if he keeps improving, maybe he becomes a rotation player, but I would be astonished if he ever became more than that and think more likely than not that he’ll be out of the league by the 20/21 season.
With Sacramento’s win over Dallas, there are now 7 teams with exactly 18 wins.
What about Tyreke Evans as a good comparison to Mudiay? In other words, a guy that needed lots of humbling and seasoning before putting it together at age 28?
Tyreke Evans always had an amazing handle, though. Mudiay doesn’t have that ankle-breaking talent.
I’m taking names on all the Mudiay is horrible comments:
Cock, ptmilo, jk47, djphan, latke, Z-man, donnie walsh…. well, almost everyone, but me.
Let’s see what he does.
d’angelo russell is in much better shape than mudiay…. he really only needs to not shoot horribly from 3 or take less of those and wean off the turnovers….. both are very likely to occur….
he’s very close to a breakout and another full year with atkinson i’m almost positive he’ll get there….
Hypothetical: if you added LeBron to any roster in the NBA, do they get to at least the conference finals? Suns? Knicks? Nets?
I say yes, the guy is that good.
that sounds eerily similar to current perry teamspeak…
That’s why it makes a lot of sense to me. Perry seems to be big on installing a winning culture, and how you respond to losing a position battle in training camp and practice everyday can tell you a lot about a person. For whatever reason, the Knicks got tired of Hernangomez the person. His reps demanded he be traded and they traded him to a city where he’s still the 3rd string center.
way to go hoolahoop – keep the faith…
at times i miss reub’s zealous nature…
got to admit – that was a pretty nice touch on the FO’s part…
you know kaminsky’s gonna kick his ass in practice…
willy was soft 🙂
Hey hoola I want in for the Mudiay is a bust club
Don’t look now but this might finally be the year the Spurs miss the playoffs
Okay, be sure to give us a shout-out when we’re inevitably right again.
@137. Z man. Very funny.