Knicks Morning News (2017.02.06)

  • [ESPN] Monday’s Knicks News: Rose likely to play against Lakers
    (Monday, February 06, 2017 4:53:01 AM)

    Monday’s Knicks News: Rose likely to play against Lakers

  • [ESPN] Knicks stuck between playoff push and playing for the future
    (Sunday, February 05, 2017 7:38:07 PM)

    Knicks stuck between playoff push and playing for the future

  • [SNY Knicks] Former Knick Mark Jackson weighs in on Anthony situation
    (Sunday, February 05, 2017 5:50:00 PM)

    Former Knicks guard and current NBA analyst Mark Jackson weighs in on Carmelo Anthony’s impact on New York.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: As a Team-First LeBron James Soars, a Me-First Carmelo Anthony Staggers
    (Sunday, February 05, 2017 9:02:18 PM)

    Like Michael Jordan before him, James doesn’t make a move without considering how it will translate into wins. Anthony seems to have a narrower focus.

  • [NYDN] Jeff Hornacek: Knicks are balancing playoff push and rebuild mode
    (Sunday, February 05, 2017 12:21:53 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek said the Knicks are trying to find synergy between their players’ desires for a playoff push and long-term considerations.

  • [NYPost] ‘Miserable’ Phil needs to end this drama and back off Carmelo
    (Sunday, February 05, 2017 10:31:01 PM)

    After last season’s Super Bowl Sunday loss put the Knicks eight games below .500, Phil Jackson fired his coach, Derek Fisher. A year later on Super Sunday, the Knicks stood eight games under .500 again. The Knicks president can no longer in good conscience use another coach as scapegoat. Instead, Jackson tries to fire his…

  • [NYPost] Joakim Noah’s hamstring opens spot in Knicks lineup — for whom?
    (Sunday, February 05, 2017 10:04:01 PM)

    It’s taken another injury to remove Joakim Noah from the starting lineup. Noah, who suffered a left hamstring injury in Saturday’s loss to the Cavaliers, will miss Monday’s Lakers game and could be out for a few games, if training camp is any indication. Noah’s left-hamstring injury during camp cost him at least two weeks…

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek not shy assessing Knicks’ desire to rebuild
    (Sunday, February 05, 2017 11:48:24 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony isn’t the only one torn. Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek said he’s still aiming to make the playoffs, but made his first pitch that breaking up the team with an eye on a rebuild makes sense, too. It’s unusual for a head coach to cite the merits of making moves to tank a season, but…

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Jeff Hornacek: Derrick Rose likely to play Monday
    (Sunday, February 05, 2017 9:48:20 PM)

    Derrick Rose went through a full practice with the Knicks on Sunday, and Jeff Hornacek said his starting point guard is “likely” to be back on the floor Monday night against the Lakers.

  • 151 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.02.06)”

    Tank commander Rose likely back in action today

    Tank destroyers KOQ and Willy getting more pt today due to the Noah injury though

    I think this one is a win, the Lakers are lost and bad.

    let’s hope Melo destroys them at least.

    This is a legit amazing quote from Hornacek via NYPost article above:

    “We’re all competitors and we all want to get there,’’ Hornacek said Sunday. “[But] we have to understand we have to try to develop something for the long term. If we’re just skipping steps just to get in the playoffs, that would be great for this year, then what do you do next year?”

    I’ve actually come around to trading Melo for pennies on the dollar for the Clippers pupu platter, and even taking Jamal’s contract. The reason? It would irrevocably put us on a rebuilding path. It would prevent us from trying to skip steps again this summer because our cap space will be tied up anyway. Build through the draft, find value in FA, or if value isn’t there, sell your cap space for more assets.

    In 2 years KP may have a max extension, and so I think we need to keep our powder dry this summer, then gear up for a splash in summer 2018 depending on what the progress of the team is.

    And Phil needs to go. This obsession with the Triangle has been extremely unhealthy for the franchise and the team on the floor.

    Yeah Horny’s definitley down for the tank.

    I agree with other posters that we don’t even have to trade Melo to start rebuilding. Just get rid of some of the 26+ guys and you still have guys like Noah, Melo and Sasha to provide leadership/keep pressure off of KP.

    I’ve actually come around to trading Melo for pennies on the dollar for the Clippers pupu platter, and even taking Jamal’s contract.

    Doc would have to be ill to reject this minimum trade: Rivers/Crawford/Brice Johnson/Pierce for Melo/Jennings. Rivers is an SG – I posted the other day that in 325 minutes he’s got a 62 TS and 61 FG when he and CP3 are on the court together. No future draft picks need be included. We could throw in Vujacic and Ndour. Trade Machine.

    I think Lee could have some value to OKC. Morrow is no longer a sharpshooter and he’s still bad at everything else. We take the expiring contracts of Collison/Morrow plus either their 2017 1st round pick or Abrines. Trade Machine

    Next we look at trading KOQ/Holiday/Kuz to Raptors for Delon Wright and Sullinger’s expiring contract. Someone mentioned that Toronto is looking for a player like KOQ. Trade Machine

    It’s Clips or bust regarding Melo. Nobody’s taking Rose or Noah (Thibs could wait to summer to sign Rose). We’re not acquiring Rubio since Thibs is looking for a 1 guard in deal. I’d be happy if this were our core roster to start 2017-18:

    1: Ntilikina, Delon Wright
    2: Rivers, Baker
    3: Lance, OKC pick?, Brice
    4/5: KP, Willy, Brice Johnson, Noah

    How many coaches would actually be amenable to a tank? Brett Brown? Anyone else?

    Props to Hornacek for tentatively supporting the sensible option. That takes a lot of courage, given the very heavy disincentives for losing as a head coach in the NBA.

    I would be fully satisfied with Rivers, Crawford, Brice Johnson, and a top 3 protected 2021 pick.

    I wouldn’t want to throw in Jennings because he’s prob worth a draft pick to someone else. Clips can pick up another random PG and let Felton run the show until CP3 is back. Felton hasn’t been super-awful this year. In fact, I wonder whether we are delaying the trade just so the Clips have a reasonable PG until closer to CP3’s return.

    Then try and trade Derrick Rose to Minnesota or Sacramento for expirings and a 2nd round pick.

    Then try and trade Courtney Lee and KOQ to someone for 1st round picks.

    KOQ to Boston for Boston’s own 2017 or 2018 pick seems to make to much sense not to do.

    Why is everyone so bent on trading Melo for garbage?

    What about getting real value for him?

    I’ll tell you how: we have to look past trading him to a contender or a destination of his choice. The reason is that our best ‘clients’ for Melo are not going to be the Clippers, Boston or Cleveland, but a team mired in mediocrity that thinks it can improve by adding a pure scorer.

    Now, to achieve this we need to bench Melo or have him starting with the second unit (either one will help the tank) and soon he will be accepting trades to a greater number of destinations.

    If Phil is patient and smart, he will get something good (young players or some pick) instead of crappy contracts and players that lead nowhere.

    But it all starts when Melo is demoted to a secondary role

    If melon went to a secondary role, wouldn’t he become disgusted and vocalize his angst. Then our hands are really tied.

    I think Melo has to go, but wait until we know what the cap is.
    He may have more value then.
    I like the idea of a core of KP, Willy, Kuz, Holiday, Plumlee, Lee and Noah as a back up.
    Then we probably draft a PG.
    We use Melo to pick up a good player or two and draft picks.

    But I think Melo has more value later rather than now. It also then looks more like an oblique tank.
    I also think Melo simply needs to assert himself and say, I will not approve a trade during the season, period. Then all this Jackson shit is nullified and it takes this option away for now.
    Settled.

    That core sux. Sorry you put a lot of effort but that team wins 20 games

    Yes, that’s the idea! Winning 20 games. Winning 20 games for a few years and at least acquiring some top lottery talent in the process is vastly preferable to winning 34 games every year for decades on end.

    1: Ntilikina, Delon Wright
    2: Rivers, Baker
    3: Lance, OKC pick?, Brice
    4/5: KP, Willy, Brice Johnson, Noah

    This is one sorry looking team. It’s so bad that we could be terrible for many more years and become even sorrier. I appreciate your efforts, Zanzibar, but personally I’m very glad that Phil is at the helm and not you.

    That team would be more fun to watch than anything we’ve thrown out there since 2012-2013. The point would obviously not be to try and win as many games as possible.

    Today is a huge day for the tank.

    Sacto, Dallas, Miami, Philly, and New Orleans all have very winnable games. If we can squeak out a loss to the Lakers, we could gain some serious ground.

    We could lose 75 games and that would be so much fun that I’d have to become a hockey fan for a decade.

    -Why would Minn or Sac trade anything at all for Derrick Rose?
    -Courtney Lee though; Minn might be interested.
    -Nobody is trading a 1 for KOQ
    -Don’t take Rivers AND Crawford in a deal for Melo. it’s just trading 1 bad deal for 2. You might be able to deal Melo this offseason; you are never trading Crawford. All you are doing is deliberately making your on court team worse.

    You know, the purpose of Philly tanking also involved hording and stashing draft picks. We don’t have those, and we’re likely not going to get them.

    You know, the purpose of Philly tanking also involved hording and stashing draft picks. We don’t have those, and we’re likely not going to get them.

    That’s exactly why we should be willing to take on bad contracts (Jamal, Rivers, anyone else) if that’s what it takes to facilitate deals in which we get picks. That’s exactly what Philly did, look at their trade with the Kings (that we could’ve made, but when you have the opportunity to sign Derrick Williams and Arron Afflalo you gotta do it).

    Is it possible to put out a team like that in ny. Nope. Catch-22

    I’ll never understand this line of thinking. It’s okay to be terrible in NY as long as it’s an accident, but if there’s some rhyme or reason to it people will revolt. Doesn’t pass the smell test.

    hell I’d watch 150 losses to get to watch a core of Ball / Doncic / KP / Willy for 10+ years

    @22

    Doesn’t sell tix… garden stops selling out games and Dolan forces his hand on the mgmt and bang we have another isiah in charge

    But what if you lose 150 games and end up with Tatum and Bamba?

    The garden was selling out during a 17 win season in which Cole Aldrich was objectively our best player

    Yeah, the Garden is going to do well no matter what. There are only 41`games a year in a relatively small stadium (compared to baseball and football stadiums) in the middle of the most awesome city in the world. Plus they have a young star player in KP. They’ll sell tickets just fine. Just look at Philly’s tickets sales last season when they had Okafor to sell tickets. They weren’t that different from their last good season (roughly 17,000 to 15,000) and this year they’re selling tickets back at their old levels because of Embiid, and I think we can agree that KP is more similar to Embiid than Okafor when it comes to being a draw, right?

    If we somehow get Ball there is gonna be a lot of excitement sorrunding this team.

    @26
    that’s only gonna happen if we get lower picks because we won meaningless games.

    Id rather watch Tatum and Bamba than 34 years old Melo and Rose still.

    If we somehow get Ball there is gonna be a lot of excitement sorrunding this team.

    Oh sure, that as well. Or hell, even Smith.

    Regarding Frank’s Clippers trade offer before, I agree that I would be okay with a deal for Rivers, Crawford, Brice and a 2021 pick. Stress “okay,” as I think any deal without the 2021 and 2023 picks would be at least a little bit disappointing. Although I would like to believe that the Knicks could get two picks if they didn’t take Rivers. Since the Knicks don’t really need Rivers, why not just Crawford, Brice, Wesley Johnson and a 2021 and a 2023 pick (agreed that the Knicks would need to give them top 3 protection on both picks – that seems to be the standard nowadays). But yeah, if it is only one first rounder, I can live with that.

    I think I’d rather have a 0-16 season than lose like the Falcons lost last night

    It seems mindlessly tanking for “several years” and getting rid of Melo even under un-favorable conditions is the goal.

    Not much thought beyond what the mob dictates day by day. We just tank, get several all-time greats as draft picks and things magically happen…because!

    It seems mindlessly tanking for “several years” and getting rid of Melo even under un-favorable conditions is the goal.

    You know the Daily News doesn’t pay you unless you file your copy through the paper, right?

    I think I’d rather have a 0-16 season than lose like the Falcons lost last night

    It was awful, but what’s funny is that I was watching it with a bunch of people who didn’t really know football that well, so I was explaining to them the whole night that the Patriots still very much had a chance due to how much time was left in the game (and due to Brady being quite good at moving the ball quickly), so I had spent so much time preparing them (they all wanted the Falcons to win) that the Patriots had a real chance that when it actually happened, I had already come to terms with it, so it wasn’t that painful for me, as a guy who just wanted the Patriots to lose.

    But yeah, if I were a Falcons fan? Holy shit.

    I stopped watching in the third quarter because I knew the Pats were coming back and I can’t stand them.

    Anyway, I’d be fine with any Clips trade that got us a first round pick. They’ll be terrible in three years.

    @39

    me too, as soon as the Patriots scored the second TD i stopped watching, it was painfully obvious Atlanta was throwing that game.

    I didn’t know Football had a sudden death rule. Seems unfair.

    I’m okay with it in the regular season (especially since they changed it from their old rules, which was that it was sudden death and you could win with a field goal. Nowadays, if you only kick a field goal, the other team still gets the ball with a chance to tie or win), but yeah, in the playoffs I think they should just play an extra quarter.

    me too, as soon as the Patriots scored the second TD i stopped watching, it was painfully obvious Atlanta was throwing that game.

    It was obvious that they were playing so terribly that the Patriots had a chance, but still, the Falcons were up big enough that they could have still won by just playing normal terrible (they had a chance to kill the clock and kick a field goal and they decided to fuck around for some unknown reason). It was strange that they screwed up quite as poorly as they did.

    From Berman of the Post

    From what I’m told, Jackson wants to build around Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Justin Holiday, Courtney Lee, Mindaugas Kuzminskas and Marshall Plumlee, use their lottery pick for a point guard in a draft stuffed with them and make Joakim Noah their rock of a backup center.

    Why on earth is Plumlee rated over KOQ?

    They are only 2 years apart and KOQ is clearly a lot better now. I’m never going to understand why so many people still don’t like KOQ. He’s one of my favorite Knicks. Plays hard, is getting better, good contract, and giant teddy bear of a person. I love him.

    Other than that, I would sign off on that plan. You could question Courtney Lee’s fit because of age, but having a few veterans around is not terrible, his contract is fine, and he’s a likable good role player.

    It’s not how I’d handle things, but a half-assed rebuild is about ten times better than expected, so sure, sign me up, as well! Really, any rebuild would be music to my ears at this point. Just stop trying to contend every year.

    KOQ is great, it’s just that his contract isn’t all that good for the Knicks considering he’s only signed for one more year, and since the Knicks won’t be going anywhere next season, he seems like he’d be more valuable as a trade asset than as a Knick, as he would work really well on a good team and his contract would be a lot more valuable to a good team that couldn’t afford to sign a big money free agent because they were capped out. And if the Knicks are in a better position in a couple of years, they can always try to sign him then.

    I don’t dislike KOQ but if he can fetch a first rounder then we shouldn’t even have to think about it. Our frontcourt is crowded and he’s one of the few guys who has value to other teams.

    It’s not how I’d handle things, but a half-assed rebuild is about ten times better than expected, so sure, sign me up, as well!

    Agreed.

    You know the Daily News doesn’t pay you unless you file your copy through the paper, right?

    This is just a side thing, a good opportunity to interact with real fans. Fun, too 😉

    True, but just like the Melo deal, it’s sort of a sunk cost, ya know? Might as well just hope to get as much use out of Noah as they can.

    I will sign off on Phil’s grand plan for the rebuild. That’s the right move. I even like the idea of trading KOQ.

    me too, i’d like it more if we could move lee and re sign holiday for the same price we signed LT

    Yeah, I don’t like the “keeping Lee” part and I don’t see how they’d be able to re-sign Holiday to a deal that would make sense, but those are minor issues compared to the upside of doing a rebuild period.

    i dont know why I dont want lee, he’s pretty good and his contract isnt bad…he just is on the wrong side of 30 for a youthful rebuild

    i dont know why I dont want lee, he’s pretty good and his contract isnt bad…he just is on the wrong side of 30 for a youthful rebuild

    I like the guy, but he’s just not on the right side of the win curve, and unlike Noah, you could get something for him now. Lee will be fine in the short term, but will likely be a good deal worse when the team starts to get to a better position, and they won’t be able to deal him then. So why not just deal him now when you can get an asset that is on the same win curve as the rest of the team?

    It does make me slightly fearful over what a “rebuild” is in Jackson’s mind, but the proof will be in the proverbial pudding. We shall soon find out where his head is at for real. Fingers crossed for a legit rebuild! I’ll gladly put up with Lee spiraling out if the rest of the rebuild is handled properly!

    if this is what Phils doing, I gotta say I like the idea…

    specially reading “lottery pick PG”.

    what kind of asset do u think you can get for lee without taking back an undesirable contract?

    Isn’t Courtney Lee the guy who demanded a trade from Boston after they traded Pierce and Garnett? Jackson just can’t commit… Man. I do understand Plumlee over O’Quinn since Plumlee is cheaper and signed for an extra season.

    Far more irritating ot me than the Lee thing though are all the reports about how the Knicks don’t want to take back Crawford. I mean, how many times does Jackson have to sacrifice value for cap space only to end up signing contracts that are nearly as bad as the ones he paid to avoid taking on before he lets go of his cap space fascination?

    From what I’m told, Jackson wants to build around Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Justin Holiday, Courtney Lee, Mindaugas Kuzminskas and Marshall Plumlee, use their lottery pick for a point guard in a draft stuffed with them and make Joakim Noah their rock of a backup center.

    That’s a reasonable plan. Minus the Noah as ‘their rock’ delusional element, of course.

    what kind of asset do u think you can get for lee without taking back an undesirable contract?

    I think Lee could get at the very least a couple of seconds from a team, maybe even a late first. Heck, as others noted, he could be included in a theoretical Clippers deal to get Redick involved.

    Far more irritating ot me than the Lee thing though are all the reports about how the Knicks don’t want to take back Crawford. I mean, how many times does Jackson have to sacrifice value for cap space only to end up signing contracts that are nearly as bad as the ones he paid to avoid taking on before he lets go of his cap space fascination?

    Hopefully those reports predate the current one, because yes, that would make no sense for the rebuild to insist on not taking back Crawford. As always, I think we won’t know for sure what’s what until a possible deal actually happens. A possible Melo deal is like the killer in a horror film, never assume it’s done until it is, you know, actually done.

    I don’t want Crawford, you couldn’t pay a team to take him he’s so bad.

    the Noah “rock” part is merely Phil recognizing that Noah’s contract is so bad that it’s untradeable, nothing more.

    Lee might be untradeable too for all we know, and cap space isn’t the most important for the Knicks: with Rose leaving the Knicks would have enough cap to make whatever move they want, hopefully only for younger players.

    The only thing that worries me is Phil seems dead set on drafting a point guard. It makes some sense seeing as how this draft is full of them, and good ones at that, but it makes me worried that he’ll be drafting for need. If Isaac and, say, Ntilikina are on the board, I want Isaac (just quickest examples off the top of my head).

    I don’t want Crawford, you couldn’t pay a team to take him he’s so bad.

    They’d be rebuilding. It wouldn’t matter if Crawford is bad. Worst case scenario you just cut him and eat his salary (although I’d recommend against that, since he could be bought out after next season, and if you cut him, you guarantee the second year). Avoiding Crawford’s salary simply cannot be a factor in any possible Melo deal. Look at how Philly did it – they would take bad players if it got them better longterm assets. The Knicks have to think that way, as well.

    Imagine how better off they’d be had they taken the Sacramento Kings roster dump instead of the Sixers? Those are the types of deals the Knicks should be making. If taking on Crawford gets them good picks, take him.

    I agree 100% with Brian, it’s not like the trade Phils looking for is just Crawford and Rivers for Melo… if it was that the Clippers would have pulled he trigger instantly.

    getting back contracts is the way to get picks associated with them, and this is a rebuild… cap space is expendable in a rebuild.

    also, I still think having those bad contracts on board is good, because it makes sure that the front office won’t give any more even longer contracts to mediocre players

    Agree we should be hoarding and stashing picks. I just think our ability to do so is pretty limited. I think Brian’s proposal w/ LAC makes sense, but that they likely won’t trade us 2 1’s, unless the 2nd one is like top 15 protected. I think KOQ can get you 2 2’s, but not a 1. I think maybe Jennings gets you a late round 1. maybe.

    I wonder if we can get more out of LAC for Melo in the offseason, at which point Chris Paul tells them he will stay if they deal for Melo. Kinda the opposite reason of why we traded Chandler to Dallas.

    Far more irritating ot me than the Lee thing though are all the reports about how the Knicks don’t want to take back Crawford.

    Most GMs believe a 19 or 20yo draftee playing the 1 will take 2 or 3 years before they’re ready. Even if we drafted Ntilikina, our team’s offense would suffer if he were the starter, impacting the progress of all of our other young players because of the importance of the 1 guard. It may be that Phil wants the Crawford cap to sign someone like Hill or Teague AND draft a 1 guard who would eventually displace a Teague who would then transition to reserve or be traded. Of course, Rubio (already on a 2-year deal) makes the most sense in terms of timing but we’d have to trade there and it’s not clear if Rubio would be better until we know the price. IWould we have enough to sign Teague or Hill to max if we kept Crawford’s contract?

    So Phil’s plan?:
    1: Teague/Hill, Ntilikina
    2/3: Lee, Holiday, Baker, Lance, Kuz
    4/5: KP, Willy, Noah, Plum

    They would still have Rose’s salary figure to sign a stopgap point guard, if that’s what they wanted to do.

    The guy we sign would also have to be okay with signing with a team’s that’s rebuilding. I don’t know if 28 year old Teague would be down with playing on a lottery teams for a few years. We would have to sign a Felton-esque starter like we did in 2010.

    If we don’t trade Jennings I wouldn’t mind bringing him back for a reasonable price.

    I think rebuilding is a little more complicated than just loading a team with shitty guys. I’d like for us to have some veterans our youngsters could learn from. Crawford isn’t one of them. I’d hate to see him come a hog a ball on the floor with his bad habits. We need to create a winning culture with guys who play with a winning mentality.

    You don’t have to play Crawford then. He can sit on the bench. You can’t let not taking back Crawford lead to an inferior Melo deal. I mean, really, how in the world does that make sense to you? “Okay, we’ll take less back for Melo so that we don’t have to have Crawford sit on our bench for a year”? You have to optimize the return for Melo, and if that means taking Crawford back, then so be it. Does it suck that they have to deal with just the Clippers due to a moronic NTC? Sure, but come on, what’s done is done, you can’t let avoiding Crawford screw up whatever deal that they can get.

    The guy we sign would also have to be okay with signing with a team’s that’s rebuilding.

    I agree but we might be the only team that would offer Teague the max.

    They would still have Rose’s salary figure to sign a stopgap point guard, if that’s what they wanted to do.

    Is this true if we receive Rivers and Crawford in a Melo trade given the rise in cap holds for our 2017 rookie and open roster places in general re new CBA? We might free some space if we trade KOQ for a pick.

    I do have fond memories of Crawford and he seems like a decent guy to have in the locker room. If KP starts to emulate the guy then that says more about KP than it does about Jamal.

    Why sign Teague? Let whoever we choose play. That’s how you learn and tank.

    Is this true if we receive Rivers and Crawford in a Melo trade given the expected rise in cap holds for our 2017 rookie and open roster places in general? We might free some space if we trade KOQ for a pick,

    Rivers and Crawford’s salaries next season are combined less than what Melo was due, so yes, it would not affect their ability to still offer a max contract if that’s what they wanted to do.

    Why sign Teague? Let whoever we choose play. That’s how you learn and tank.

    I’m fine with that, as well. I would only look to sign a stopgap guy to play along with the rookie (as I do agree that they probably have to have some other veteran point guard on the team), not a max level guy.

    If KP starts to emulate the guy then that says more about KP than it does about Jamal.

    An offense with a selfish player produces an everyman for themselves mentality on offense. Look at our season. We have Rose and Melo running a completely different offense than the one Hornacek scripts.

    Why sign Teague? Let whoever we choose play. That’s how you learn and tank.

    You don’t learn if your 1 guard stinks. And that will be more important than tanking next season. That was 76ers problem – intentionally so – by Hinkie. Other players stagnated and were frustrated because he wouldn’t sign a decent 1 guard.

    But he didn’t draft one, either. Here, the Knicks would be drafting one. But yes, I agree that they should add a vet, as well. But they don’t need a max level guy. Shaun Livingston would be a great mentor if the Warriors don’t bring him back and if he figured two rings (if they win this year) was enough and now he wanted to get paid more than the MLE.

    I mean, some of you are talking about Crawford as if he was the antichrist.

    he’s just a not efficient high volume shooter, who’s going to sit at the bench and do his stuff 20 minutes per game at most.

    a young player won’t literally learn bad habits because one dude on the team has bad habits on the court… and the whole good habits narrative is is very overrated to be honest, I believe it has a lot more to do with the player and what he’s asked to do on the floor.

    You don’t sign max level players as insurance. It’s not an optimal use of your cap room.

    You don’t learn if your 1 guard stinks.

    How will your guard learn if he’s not given the opportunity to run the offense with the 1s?

    That was 76ers problem – intentionally so – by Hinkie. Other players stagnated and were frustrated because he wouldn’t sign a decent 1 guard.

    Is there any proof the Sixers who Hinkie drafted before Embiid were that good? Okafor actually regressed this season with a “decent 1 guard.” You have Noel who has made some important strides this season. That’s a mixed record.

    You don’t sign max level players as insurance. It’s not an optimal use of your cap room

    In the past, that would be true. Nowadays, cap isn’t that valuable so a max guy at a key position might not be so bad if there’s a 50/50 chance your pick is gonna be a bust or meh. It may be more optimal than other uses of the cap.

    Yeah I mean his greatest value is helping us tank harder for the post all star break stretch. Agreed with Bruno, I don’t think a season and a half at most of Crawford is going to prevent us from developing a more team oriented play style.

    I’ve come around on getting Crawford. He’s terrible, but I would definitely take him on if it means getting more assets in trade. His salary being on the books for next year also prevents Phil from handing another 30-year old quick-fix free agent a long-term deal, thereby screwing up the rebuild.

    Bring on Jamal. Just don’t play him more than 15-20 mpg, because his unrepentant chucking is bad for the young guys.

    Crawford is a very very bad player. At first I was okay with us trading for him and didn’t understand why Phil refused to take his contract on. Then I looked up how bad he’s become and I can’t see him adding anything of positive value to our team. His WS/48 is .018, his VORP -0.7. For that I’d rather play Ron.

    I wouldn’t keep crawford on the team, but I’d happily take his contract if it meant getting more in a trade. Just waive him. At least it opens another roster spot.

    that’s not the point Brian was making, Derrick.

    of course nobody wants, really wants Jamal… but if taking his contract is what it takes to get a better Melo trade, it doesn’t matter if he’s terrible, it is the best possible decision… if thats the issue, get him and sit his ass on the bench to play Ron Baker, who’s just as bad but is somewhat young and tries hard, I guess.

    Milos Teodosic would be the best stop gap option. Also, I do not trust any rebuild reports that include Lee but that does sound like a Phil move. Why build around an aging vet who could be used to get younger assets to help your rebuild? Another mistake would be to include Kuz or Holiday in any long term plans based on their age, contracts, and future money demands. Players like those can be found every year

    @96

    I don’t think the issue is Crawford vs. no trade. We have weeks until the deadline. Weeks for the Clippers to become more and more desperate with every loss. What’s the rush? Lets hold out until we get the best possible deal.

    @98

    I agree, it’s just that I can see no way a trade is matching Melo’s contract unless Crawford is involved or a completely out of nowhere third team comes up.

    In my opinion the Cavs / Celtics avenue is probably dead, and the Knicks might have less leverage than what you are expecting.

    I like the idea of continuity. Kuz and Holiday buy in on what Hornacek’s trying to do. Keep them and build something. If they don’t work out then they can easily leave.

    @100

    Our only leverage isn’t from competing offers, its not even our greatest source of leverage. The true leverage is from the desperate situation the Clippers find themselves entering the playoffs this postseason. They’re without Paul for at least a month and are but a few games from the 7th spot in Western Conference without many options for improvement.

    @101 Agreed. Maybe Kuz can make a name for himself chucking up shots next year for a rebuilding team. He’s fine to keep around.

    @97 Thank you. Teodisic would probably cost us $6 mil per and would be worth four times that. We could then draft an Isaac or a Tatum and with Melo gone that would be a young exciting improving team. Plus we’d still have money for a max player if we wanted one.

    I do not want the Knicks offering anybody who isn’t Gordon’s Hayward anything close to a max contract. Steph and KD ain’t leaving the Bay Area with that move to San Francisco on the horizon. George Hill and Jeff Teague are poor fits for a rebuild and would cost too much. Jrue Holiday is overrated on this board and would be a bad contract from the time it’s signed.

    The Knicks plan for the off season should be to fortify the bench with vets. Sign BJ and Tyreke Evans to 3 year deals and I guess hold onto Lance Thomas because you sure as hell cant trade him. If Joakim Noah can only play 20 minutes a night I can guarantee you there are much better ways to light 20 minutes on fire, so I can live with that.

    If God graces us with Lonzo Ball when we trade Melo then so be it, but I do not want Phil Jackson taking Ntilikina or Fox over a prospect like Jonathan Isaac. If people are dumb enough to rate Jackson and Tatum over Isaac then we need to be there to pick him up. I understand it’s a point guard’s league now more than ever but Isaac is an All-NBA level talent. You don’t pass over that for guys who are arguably higher risk propositions with less talent. It’s crazy.

    Kuz I like, I’m not saying to trade him.

    I’m just saying that this team should not overrate continuity if it means going for the absolute best deals in terms of long term value.

    if the Knicks get really valuable picks or young players, I could care less if 11 out of 13 players next year are different.

    and Deng’s contract is probably the worse in the NBA right now, right up there with Noah.

    Deng is way worse than Crawford. Deng has three years left after this one at $18 mil per year. He’s been almost as bad as Crawford and will age quickly because he’s another guy that Thibs ran into the ground.

    Crawford is worse right now but only has one year left at $14m, then a $3m buyout the next year.

    Deng should be untouchable unless we are getting back major assets or dumping Noah.

    One of the problems with dealing away all the veterans and players you need to resign in a couple of years is that in a total reset the team will suck for 2-4 more years while all the kids develop. You wind up becoming the T-Wolves or 76ers in recent years.

    That’s not the worst position to be in if you are a long term thinker.

    However, once you have a core team of 3-4 young studs, there’s upside to having vets in the mix in that you will get some playoff experience and accelerate the development that way. As long as the veterans you keep are on fair contracts, you can always deal them later.

    To me, it make no sense to give up solid players on attractive contracts because you are worried about signing then later or because they are on a less ideal timeline. You may get some of those players back again on very reasonable contracts. And if not, you will get cap space to fill with someone else. To me, it’s rarely a good idea to trade away a great contract unless you are sure you are getting equal or better value back.

    If we really believe that KP and WH are 2 major pieces of our future, we have a shot at adding another piece in the draft, possibly another piece in a Melo trade, and possibly still another with Rose’s cap space. That gives us 2-3 chances to find 2 solid starters before we’ve done anything else. I don’t think we need to worry about the contracts that are due in a couple of years and go to a total reset. We just need to clear out Melo (some of his cap space for sure), get a good player in this draft, and use cap space better than we did with Noah. Once Melo is gone Jackson will be mentally free of having to worry about keeping him happy with crazy deals like the Rose trade or Noah signing.

    @109

    Noah has been better than Deng this year, which is hard to fathom. But wings are more valuable than centers in the modern NBA, and to the Knicks in particular, who already have Willy and Zing as two centers of the future.

    I probably would trade Noah for Deng, but it’s close. There’s a good chance that both guys will be dead money by 2018-19.

    I wouldn’t trade for Deng because the best Lakers asset will probably not vest this year if the Lakers trade for Melo and it likely won’t be as good of a pick next year.

    But would you trade Noah for Deng straight up (assuming no other trades are happening between the teams)?

    If we really believe that KP and WH are 2 major pieces of our future, we have a shot at adding another piece in the draft, possibly another piece in a Melo trade, and possibly still another with Rose’s cap space. That gives us 2-3 chances to find 2 solid starters before we’ve done anything else.

    Too rational for the blog to digest in the current frenzy of delusional aspirations. Time is needed before a sense of reality is restored.

    But would you trade Noah for Deng straight up (assuming no other trades are happening between the teams)?

    Probably not. Noah is a terrible contract, but eh, at least he should be able to give them some good minutes.

    Sam Amick ?@sam_amick 12m12 minutes ago

    Sixers & Pelicans in talks about sending Jahlil Okafor to New Orleans. Philly pushing for NO 1st rounder. Story coming at @USATODAYsports

    Good move by the Sixers, but I do not get it for the Pelicans, unless they plan on flipping him maybe?

    If the Sixers get that New Orleans pick I will give up. Its not fucking fair.

    Derrick Williams about to be released by the Heat.

    We don’t need him because we have Cheese, but I’m really sorry to hear that. I hope he finds another job somewhere. I thought he was improving even if he wasn’t particularly productive.

    New Orleans is so incompetent that they just might do it my lord that would be too much. Even a future first would be too much as that team is going to be not good for quite a while.

    Philadelphia could conceivably have three top 10 picks in this draft if the Lakers break their way

    And we’re struggling to find someone stupid enough to unload Melo on :/

    A tale of two franchises.

    I would trade New Orleans Willy just so the Sixers don’t get that draft pick.

    It must never happen.

    Begley says Derrick Williams is on our radar, which is good news for the tank. I don’t think there’s someone worse than him on the team whose minutes he could conceivably get.

    Okafor is another “sure-fire” lottery pick that has fizzled out. We can do better with a 10th pick or even a 15th pick than many of these teams can do with a 3rd pick because of Phil and Gaines. Our future is bright.

    nice, now a stupid franchise are giving Philly another get out of jail free card for one of their picks that actually turned into a mediocre dude.

    if Simmons is great the Sixers will be insane.

    Those who spoke with Kyle Shanahan last night at Falcons team hotel tell me he said “I blew it”

    Good to hear. Ryan needs to take some responsibility, too, though.

    Seems like it won’t be this year and NO wants lottery protection. Philly not willing to take back Asik.

    @AmicoHoops

    Several NBA agents tell me they hear Sixers seek Pelicans’ Jrue Holiday as part of package in return for Jahlil Okafor, as reported by Yahoo

    Hearing that Brandon Ingram will slide into starting 5 tonight. Unclear in whose spot, but logical conclusion would be struggling Luol Deng.— Bill Oram (@billoram) February 6, 2017

    That’s bad news for the tank. As bad as Deng is these days, Ingram has been an abomination this year.

    Adrian Wojnarowski ?@WojVerticalNBA 37s37 seconds ago

    Sources: New Orleans talks with Philadelphia one of several it has ongoing, but Pels shopping assets – including ’18 pick – throughout NBA.

    Get on that shit, Phil. Everything (but KP and maybe Willy) must go!

    the entire league must be trying to get on the fone with the Pelicans hahaha

    I for one think Noah would be a great mentor for AD

    I just want the Knicks to be the one to take advantage of a stupid franchise for once in my lifetime.

    Why are the Pels shopping their ’18 1st rounder though? I mean, where the hell do they think they are as a franchise that they’re going to be that much better next year, even if Hield takes a leap?

    I really don’t get what New Orleans is thinking right now. How can they be willing to deal a pick?

    ETA: Ha! I see Cdiggy and I were on the same page at the same time. 🙂

    What happens if or when Davis realizes that the Pelicans can’t build a team properly around him and have screwed up too many future assets? If that happens, and he demands to be traded, do you stick a fork in New Orleans Pelicans’ basketball?

    We desperately need to get below the Sixers. If they pick three fucking times before we do once, we can forget about getting anyone worth getting excited about.

    The Sixers can’t have three lottery picks this year, can they? I thought the Sacramento pick was only a swap this year?

    They can have their own, the Lakers (top 3 protected), and possibly New Orleans’ in light of this news. All we be ahead of us as of now. I didn’t even think about the Kings swap.

    Yeah, the NO pick would be a 2018 pick. That’s still a good asset, but not nearly as good as a 2017 pick.

    I think Phil wants to keep Lee because he’s not a me first type of player and Phil wants a team that shares the ball.

    On the subject of Crawford, I’d be willing to get him in a trade if we just immediately waived him and ate the salary. Because Melo’s salary is what it is we probably have to take some bad contract back if we are getting picks out of the deal.

    On the subject of Crawford, I’d be willing to get him in a trade if we just immediately waived him and ate the salary. Because Melo’s salary is what it is we probably have to take some bad contract back if we are getting picks out of the deal.

    The problem there is what I mentioned before, which is that if you waive him, that guarantees his second year, which is currently non-guaranteed. So it’s probably better to just bench him. He can have Sasha’s roster spot.

    I didn’t know that, and then I actually don’t want him. If we aren’t going to play someone, I want someone we can waive, so we don’t waste the roster spot.

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