Testing Dolan’s Razor: The 2020 NBA Lottery Thread

If this is the year the Knicks somehow jump up in the lottery and win it, we will know that Dolan’s Razor is firmly intact.

But hey, maybe I’m wrong and they’ll win the #1 pick, get Ball and he’ll become a superstar. Stranger things have happened!

Well, the TV show Stranger Things happened, at least. I don’t know if any stranger thing than the Knicks winning the #1 pick and having it turn out to be a superstar has happened.

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583 thoughts to “Testing Dolan’s Razor: The 2020 NBA Lottery Thread”

  1. Kevin O’Connor, from The Ringer, has rated Hayes as his top prospect for months, but in his mock drafts he’s always chosen with the 8th-11th pick. I’m gonna watch some highlights of him, maybe a sleeper for the Knicks.

    https://nbadraft.theringer.com/

    I’m really curious about what the Warriors are going to do.

  2. Haven’t logged on in a while, but just want to send some positive vibes across the internet to all KBers.

    If we come away with pick 4 or 5 I will be pretty stoked with that outcome. Prime position to nab Deni.

  3. I’m 48 years old and I’ve accomplished some things I’m proud of, but I do believe that coining the term “Dolan’s Razor” is the pinnacle of my life’s work

  4. dtrickey:
    Haven’t logged on in a while, but just want to send some positive vibes across the internet to all KBers.

    If we come away with pick 4 or 5 I will be pretty stoked with that outcome. Prime position to nab Deni.

    The Kosher Unicorn!

  5. The Kosher Unicorn!

    I can get behind that moniker.

    Also, if the Warriors get the no.1 pick after 1 bad season which followed 5 straight finals appearances and 3 championships, I will be physically ill.

  6. I still don’t have a cable provider, so make this colorful for me fellas. I’m still rooting for #1, just because.

  7. I can’t overstate how much I love Mature Themes and pom pom and I still agree with you, JK

  8. I still don’t have a cable provider, so make this colorful for me fellas. I’m still rooting for #1, just because.

    Looks like they are streaming for free on the NBA app if can’t get it on tv

  9. #8, where you probably can’t get any of Hayes, LaMelo, or Hali. Jesus fucking Christ this franchise is cursed

  10. It’s amazing how this team manages to be so fucking bad yet still manages to pick 8th or 9th every year

  11. It really is something that we watched a team of this quality all year and we’re not even getting a good pick out of it. Jesus following this team is depressing.

  12. I’d be thrilled with Okongwu at 8, but that’ definitely a weird fit w/ Mitch

    Maybe someone else grabs him and Haliburton drops

  13. Don’t worry. It’s highly likely current management doesn’t know what they are doing and even a very good coach won’t be able to get us out of the lottery next year. There’s always next year.

  14. My only consolation is that two of the worst teams are getting bumped out. The whole flatter draft odds thing sure hasn’t helped the Knicks, but it should at least somewhat discourage tanking.

  15. Of all the years not to move up, this is the one to do it. But god, I wish we ended up 6th for a shot at Haliburton

  16. Does Minny trade the pick? None of the top three guys seem to fit well with Russell and Towns. Russell is both their point guard and their scoring guard and Towns is obviously their three-point shooting center. So Wiseman, Edwards and Ball don’t really fit in Minny.

    So I would trade down if I were them.

    Just hopefully not to the Knicks.

  17. Early Bird:
    Of all the years not to move up, this is the one to do it. But god, I wish we ended up 6th for a shot at Haliburton

    The Ringer’s mock draft before the lottery had Haliburton picked at 11, so there’s that.

  18. this isn’t the end of the world….. although the lower the pick the better the knicks have to draft… but there’s probably someone good that’s going to be available…..

    it does suck that we will probably miss out on hayes….. but kira lewis… okongwu and even haliburton might even be there….

    i’m fine with it…. this wasn’t the draft where it was crucial to get top 3…..

  19. I wouldn’t totally hate picking 8th if our improvement from worst team in the league to 6th worst team in the league happened because RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson led us there. We got there on the backs of Marcus Morris, Taj Gibson, and to a lesser extent Julius Randle.

    Nice. I fully expect us to attempt a trade up for LaMelo Ball, but if not we should absolutely target Aaron Nesmith at 8. None of the point guard prospects available at 8 seem like great bets to be high level starters and we can always overpay somebody to not be Elfrid Payton for a year. Stopgap shooting seems like it’s more expensive than stop gap point guards so go get the best shooter in the draft and flip a coin between Jeff Teague and DJ Augustin.

  20. Don’t ruin my mood by trying to cheer me up.

    Leonam: The Ringer’s mock draft before the lottery had Haliburton picked at 11, so there’s that.

  21. d-mar:
    35 years without moving up in the draft

    How is that even mathematically possible?

    Our pick moved up in 2006. When we didn’t have it :)

  22. I’d much rather get a top-3 pick next year, for sure.

    I think Minny trades the pick. They are on the clock with Towns, so they need another star to compete. But who is that star? LaVine?

  23. Also, let’s all collectively let Tyrese Halliburton go. You don’t hire Kenny Payne and Johnnie Bryant to go out and draft Tyrese Halliburton. We are absolutely looking at Devin Vassell, Kira Lewis Jr, Cole Anthony (that name comes with a deep sigh), and other high ceiling prospects. Tyrese Halliburton is going to end up in Phoenix next to Devin Booker where he can fit into a system and not have to deal with the unfair pressure of having to be a traditional NBA point guard, which is something he is not.

  24. I don’t know that there’s anyone at the top of this draft that brings something the Knicks desperately need to the table. Doesn’t look like it to me. I don’t necessarily think a non shooting non defending PG guard like Ball is what we need. But if there is someone, this is the time to use one of those mediocre Dallas picks to try to move up. Other than that, they should just try to find a stretch PF and/or shooting wing in the draft, via trade, or FA including possibly using this and other picks as trade assets.

  25. It’s not the disappointment of last year – missing out on guaranteed talent. It’s just disappointment – continued, relentless disappointment. Plus Cole Anthony too.

  26. Not that concerned with moving down. I’m going to bang this drum over and over again: This. Draft. Sucks. It’s like the 2013 draft where the best players were taken in the middle and the end of the first or the 2000 draft which was just bad.

    I know people were banging the table for LaMelo in the last thread but in a good draft would anyone here be excited picking a player with that statistical profile playing in one of the worst professional leagues in the world?

  27. ess-dog:
    I’d much rather get a top-3 pick next year, for sure.

    I think Minny trades the pick. They are on the clock with Towns, so they need another star to compete. But who is that star? LaVine?

    Who was traded FROM the Timberwolves 2 years ago? I don’t think so.

  28. I think Minny trades the pick. They are on the clock with Towns, so they need another star to compete. But who is that star? LaVine?

    There is no way in hell Gerrson Rosas will trade the #1 pick for LaVine and the #4 pick. He’d MUCH rather have the #8 pick, Julius Randle, and the Dallas 2021 pick. Right?

  29. Tankathon still has us slated as taking Haliburton at #8. Could be worse. I really don’t see us taking him over Toppin/Cole/Maxey, though.

  30. Yeah I don’t think LaVine would be the one… just saying there aren’t a lot of available stars for Minny’s timeline.

  31. I’m actually not horribly upset with picking 8th this year, there will still be good players available, moving down 2 spots is just such a Knicks thing to have happen.

    I’d rather pick 8th, than spend $10 mill on this year’s #1. Now watch as I eat my words when we trade up for #1 anyways.

  32. jazzfunk:
    It’s not the disappointment of last year – missing out on guaranteed talent.It’s just disappointment – continued, relentless disappointment.Plus Cole Anthony too.

    Definitely not, I was devastated last year. I actually went out to a bar so I wouldn’t watch the lottery because I was so nervous and then ended up watching it on my phone because I couldn’t help myself. Was jumping off my stool at the bar when LAL got 4th and practically collapsed about 30 seconds later.

  33. vincoug:
    Not that concerned with moving down.I’m going to bang this drum over and over again: This. Draft. Sucks.It’s like the 2013 draft where the best players were taken in the middle and the end of the first or the 2000 draft which was just bad.

    I know people were banging the table for LaMelo in the last thread but in a good draft would anyone here be excited picking a player with that statistical profile playing in one of the worst professional leagues in the world?

    Agreed. I just hate moving down at all. And I really hope they don’t try to trade up to 1 or 2.

  34. Yeah, but you’d much rather land the #1 and trade down for some nice future assets. There’s nothing to be gained by dropping, except if you believe that the Knicks would never be so smart to do such a thing, which is, you know, rational.

    That said, nothing good can ever happen to this team, and fuck James Dolan.

  35. I love how not only has Cole Anthony been the “Oh man, how Knicksy would that be?” result, but it’s even specifically been “Cole Anthony with the #8 pick,” right?

  36. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Yeah, but you’d much rather land the #1 and trade down for some nice future assets. There’s nothing to be gained by dropping, except if you believe that the Knicks would never be so smart to do such a thing, which is, you know, rational.

    That said, nothing good can ever happen to this team, and fuck James Dolan.

  37. Oh why oh why.
    After all the tanking and bad decisions plus na non sense season, here we go with the 8th pick!
    Do we have free agent money? we really need a star here like Amare to start.
    Dallas is doing good unless they will have KP misfortune next year for their draft pick that we owned to matter.

  38. Honestly, it might be hard for teams to trade down in this draft. I bet 8, 27, and Frank gets it done with Golden State. Not that I want that, but Leon does.

  39. Kind of makes the RJ pick even more consequential, let’s pray that he develops into a solid player.

  40. You know what would be dumb? Signing a bunch of mediocre veterans to chase the #8 seed, then falling short and ending up with a late lottery pick.

    Man, I hope that never happens to the Knicks

  41. d-mar:
    35 years without moving up in the draft

    How is that even mathematically possible?

    I did the math on the odds of moving up since 2000 and once you rule out all the years the Knicks traded their pick, made the playoffs or finished with the worst overall record and so couldn’t move up, the odds of them not moving up in that span were about 45%. The problem is not really bad luck at least not in that sense. It’s the fact that the team has traded a ton of picks and really pushes hard to get up into that 30-40 win range where the odds of moving up are crap.

  42. Well this is the year not to move up. As for Minny, they would be smart to trade the pick, for a player and a pick from next year, but I don’t see them doing that. It’s very hard to tell the fans of a down trodden franchise we’re trading away the first round pick. It’s much easier if you’re Boston and Ainge, whose judgement is trusted.

  43. So who will definitely be gone by #8 and are not even worth discussing at that spot? My guesses are:
    LaMelo
    Wiseman
    Edwards
    Toppin
    Okongwu

    Everyone else can either be there at #8 or not, right?

  44. Here’s how my top 10 shaked out before things went under…. there’s goi

    1. Anthony Edwards
    2. Onyeka Okongwu
    3. Killian Hayes
    4. James Wiseman
    5. Kira Lewis
    6. Tyrese Haliburton
    7. Aaron Nesmith
    8. Paul Reed
    9. Jalen Smith
    10. Patrick Williams / Devinn Vassell

    I am expecting Okongwu and Lewis to definitely be there and they are tremendous gets…. Okongwu has fit concerns with someone like Mitch but we are not really in any position to be thinking about fit at this point… just go get talent and figure it out later….

    Lewis came on late on my radar but he’s also very good and a pretty good sleeper… not in a SGA kind of way but he reminds me of ty lawson … who was very good for awhile….

    For fans of Halliburton… I think he has a decent shot of being around …. i’m not as high on him but i do think he would be a pretty solid pick in the way mikal bridges would have been….

  45. I think Edwards and Ball are the only players sure to be gone at 8. There’s so much uncertainty this year, I really don’t think there’s any consensus.

    – Okongwu is excellent but scouts don’t have him as high
    – Wiseman only played 3 games and there’s questions about his motivation
    – Toppin is “old” in a league that really loves 19 year olds

    I expect Okongwu & Wiseman to be gone, but it wouldn’t be the biggest surprise to see them there

  46. Brian Cronin:
    I love how not only has Cole Anthony been the “Oh man, how Knicksy would that be?” result, but it’s even specifically been “Cole Anthony with the #8 pick,” right?

    It’s a done fucking deal. I can already hear Johnnie Bryant’s interviews about how Cole Anthony reminds him of Damian Lillard and Donovan Mitchell. His father played for the Knicks, he played high school ball at Archbishop Molloy, his trainer Chris Brickley used to work for the Knicks, he was the #1 point guard prospect in 2019, and he’s just “New York tough” or whatever.

    We all know Cole Anthony will be a New York Knick. The efficiency stats are not good no matter how you look at them, but here’s some of the things we can be hopeful over:

    Cole Anthony had knee surgery mid season so that’s definitely reason to believe he isn’t as bad as his numbers.

    He’s a shot maker from 3. Around 2.5 makes per 40 on 34.8% from deep, and the form on his jumper is NBA ready.

    He got to the line around 6 times a game and converted 75% of the time. If nothing else, he can get by a guy into the teeth of a defense.

    He scored lots of points for the worst Tar Heel team in maybe two decades? I don’t know.

    There isn’t a lot to like about Cole Anthony. We’re essentially hoping that his knee injury and the lack of spacing severely derailed his production, and I don’t know about the spacing but I think the knee injury is pretty significant. Hopefully Johnny Bryant and Chris Brickley can make him into a stud, because he’s a Knick.

  47. I’d be shocked if Wiseman or Okongwu fall out of the top 7. I’d be thrilled with either of them at #8.

    But the guy I really want now is Kira Lewis Jr.

  48. Ball
    Edwards
    Wiseman
    Deni

    Should definitely be off the board. The next group should include:

    Hayes
    Okongwu
    Toppin
    Okoro
    Haliburton

    Honestly, I think most bigs will drop that aren’t do-it-all center types (meaning Wiseman and Okongwu). Teams need initiators and wings.

  49. Last year odds are we picked 4+ were better than 1-3, so we sort of moved up to get the 3rd pick. Maybe we’ll get lucky and Halliburton will fall to 8.

  50. Golden State is going to use that pick to acquire a star. They’re going to dump Harrison Wiggins’ contract for a S&T in a three-way for someone like Giannis or AD and destroy the league’s parity one last time. I don’t even know how they’d do it, but they ain’t spending $10M plus like $20M in tax on a rookie unless he’s a Zion or Doncic.

  51. Guys. Let go of Onyeka Okungwu. Let go of Tyrese Haliburton.

    We are getting a lump of Cole for Christmas. Except behind the shitty numbers you don’t have basketball IQ issues, effort issues, or a broken jumper. You have a mid-season knee injury, terrible teammates, and ultimately our destiny.

  52. There will be a good player on the board at #8.

    We’ll pick somebody other than that good player.

    I’ve seen this movie before.

  53. They could probably trade back and still get Cole. Dolan’s Razor = Okwongu falling to 8, the Knicks pick him, and then trade him to Boston for two picks (Cole and RJ Hampton) and then Okwongu eats our lunch for a decade.

  54. There will be a good player on the board at #8.

    We’ll pick somebody other than that good player.

    I’ve seen this movie before.

    3 on 3’s are being scheduled as we speak

  55. Lakers game so one sided I almost watched the DNC.

    When Anthony Davis is this dominant it makes me wonder why he doesn’t do it every game.

  56. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    We really are in the “who gives a fuck” phase at this point, it seems.

    technically…i think one could argue this phase may have started on 12/27/18 when we trotted out a starting lineup with the last names- Knox, Lee, Kornet, Mudiay and Vonleh…

  57. Fuck it, let’s swing for the fences one more time and draft our Kristaps Porzingis replacement to pair with Mitch in Aleksej Pokusevski, who is basically Kristaps if he played in Olympiakos B (The league giannis played in) and had eye popping assist and stocks numbers to go along with three point shooting. Also he’s 7’0 200 pounds.

    http://www.tankathon.com/players/aleksej-pokusevski

  58. one of the worst professional leagues in the world?

    I mean the NBL is one of the top 10 leagues in the world, so it’s not like we was playing against total scrubs.

    If anyone saw the pre-lottery coverage it sounds like GSW are definitely going to move that pick. The Wolves would also have to shop it around too, because none of the “obvious” no.1 picks really fit for them. Might be the year for someone to move up cheap, but the flip side is there is no one you would for sure move up for.

  59. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
    Fuck it, let’s swing for the fences one more time and draft our Kristaps Porzingis replacement to pair with Mitch in Aleksej Pokusevski, who is basically Kristaps if he played in Olympiakos B (The league giannis played in) and had eye popping assist and stocks numbers to go along with three point shooting. Also he’s 7’0 200 pounds.

    http://www.tankathon.com/players/aleksej-pokusevski

    sounds good…his J looks way more developed than Porzingis’ if that kid is only 18…

  60. But really now that we know where we stand here’s my selections:
    Ideal:

    8: Hali or Okongwu
    27: Pokusevski (will be gone)
    37:Devon Dotson

    Good and realistic:

    8: Hali, Okongwu, or Kira Lewis Jr
    27: Tyler Bey/Anyone besides Jaden Mcdaniels
    38: Paul Reed

    LolKnicks:

    8: Cole (he’s underrated at this point because hs stats still matter but also a mortal lock to bust if the Knicks pick him)
    27: Jevin McKnox
    37: “guy with all the tools” who also can’t play basketball

  61. Wouldn’t mind a look at Cassius Stanley at 38 if he is still on the board. Looks like he could be an okay 3&D guy.

  62. Glad the Dolan’s Razor test we just took was the 15 minute antigen test and not the one that you need to wait ten days for the results.

  63. Well this is the year not to move up.

    Tell that to my coworkers aka spoiled Laker fans who rather #lolknicks then focus on beating the Blazers.

  64. I seem at times to be addicted to worry…

    just from that look on rose’s face, I’ve convinced myself we’re the fools who’ll move up to either 1 or 2…

  65. Who am I kidding… There’s really no way the pick isn’t Cole.

    I’m going to start getting used to it, planning for it, and talking myself into it.

    Heck, who knows? Maybe he will become a value pick of sorts.

  66. Rose didn’t hire Thibs to tank for another 5 years hoping the ping pong balls eventually fall their way and all these kids eventually reach puberty. If he did, that means he’s also stupid enough to trade the player away for nothing eventually anyway. Been there done that. lmao

    I don’t like much about Rose, but he got the head coach right. That already makes him better than Mills. So there’s hope he at least understands what he should be trying to do.

    I haven’t seen Ball play. So I have no opinion. But if the scouting reports are correct that he can’t shoot (and doesn’t defend), I don’t see him as an ideal fit with RJ and Robinson. I see no point in trading up for a guy that doesn’t even fit your core. We need shooting. But if Rose likes him a lot, IMO he’s going to trade up to get him because it’s likely a couple of those top picks will be available. He’s trying to add players that are going to move the chains. If he thinks Ball can do that, he’s going to get him.

    If he doesn’t like Ball that much and doesn’t see something that “moves the chains” at #8 (and I doubt there’s someone like that clearly available at #8) , then imo he’s probably going to try to use that pick plus some other assets to add a player in a trade that does move the chains.

    This is no longer about tanking for daydreams year after year. It’s about putting together a team of players that can actually play basketball using all means available. It’s about getting better every year using the draft, trading picks, trading players, signing free agents, adding young players, adding veterans and every combination of the above to move forward every year. The question is whether he’s competent at it.

  67. I haven’t seen Ball play. So I have no opinion. But if the scouting reports are correct that he can’t shoot (and doesn’t defend), I don’t see him as an ideal fit with RJ and Robinson. I see no point in trading up for a guy that doesn’t even fit your core. We need shooting. But if Rose likes him a lot, IMO he’s going to trade up to get him because it’s likely a couple of those top picks will be available. He’s trying to add players that are going to move the chains. If he thinks Ball can do that, he’s going to get him.

    yep, that’s kind of what I’m thinking – I hope we’re wrong, or rose ends up being right if he moves up…I don’t see the t-wolves or warriors wanting to stay 1 and 2…

  68. I can see why the Timberwolves would trade their pick, but why would Golden State. They have an unsatisfying center by committee at the moment and Wiseman is good.

  69. So..8 and 27..
    Ok..
    Give me Vassell and Poku or Smith if available. If those 2 aren’t there give me Isaiah Stewart. Flynn or Terry with the second rounder. I’m leaning more towards Flynn because he shoots it about as well as Terry and may be more ready to contribute early because of his college experience. Or..perhaps trade down from 8 with a team like San Antonio and pick up Lewis?

  70. DRed:
    I’m definitely calling the Warriors right now to offer them nothing for Wiggins and the 2nd pick

    This is actually what I’ve been thinking about too
    I think it’s not likely they’ll trade the pick for nothing, but I could imagine Wiggins+#2 for helpful players + #8

    There really aren’t any other teams that can or would eat that Wiggins contract, and if anyone knows whether there’s a useful player inside Wiggins, it’d be Thibs.

    I could imagine picking up Portis’s contract and trading Portis’s $15M + Bullock’s ~$5M + #8 for Wiggins and #2. Then at #8 the Dubs could pick Halliburton or Okongwu, who are far more likely to be useful in the next year or two than Edwards or Ball (not sure about Wiseman), and duck truly gigantic amounts of luxury tax this coming year and especially the following years or Wiggins’s contract.

    No way do I move Mitch + anything else for #2 as has been suggested online. Mitch is probably a better prospect than anyone else in the draft, and costs 15% as much to boot (with less team control, but still). What do I know, but I would think that most teams in the league would rather have Mitch than Wiseman just for the certainty that he can produce and contribute to winning basketball in the NBA. Not to mention his contract.

  71. Now that we’re stuck at #8, I’d be happy to offer a FA contract to Van Vleet then take best non-center, non-1-way player available at #8 — Vassell, Hayes, Patrick Williams, Poku etc

    Honestly, I have faith in Walt Perrin – if he and his staff go through all the players and think Cole Anthony is the guy, I’m fine with that too.

  72. Frank: This is actually what I’ve been thinking about too
    I think it’s not likely they’ll trade the pick for nothing, but I could imagine Wiggins+#2 for helpful players + #8

    There really aren’t any other teams that can or would eat that Wiggins contract, and if anyone knows whether there’s a useful player inside Wiggins, it’d be Thibs.

    I could imagine picking up Portis’s contract and trading Portis’s $15M + Bullock’s ~$5M + #8 for Wiggins and #2. Then at #8 the Dubs could pick Halliburton or Okongwu, who are far more likely to be useful in the next year or two than Edwards or Ball (not sure about Wiseman), and duck truly gigantic amounts of luxury tax this coming year and especially the following years or Wiggins’s contract.

    No way do I move Mitch + anything else for #2 as has been suggested online.Mitch is probably a better prospect than anyone else in the draft, and costs 15% as much to boot (with less team control, but still). What do I know, but I would think that most teams in the league would rather have Mitch than Wiseman just for the certainty that he can produce and contribute to winning basketball in the NBA. Not to mention his contract.

    I actually like this idea. Alot. Mostly because it’s not a desperate move and it does not negatively effect our draft. We’d be in a position to draft well at 2 & 27, and at 8 & 27- in this draft. Unfortunately, Ball will likely be gone- so who’s the pick at 2 for us? Edwards? Wiseman? Deni? I know one thing for sure- I do NOT want Okoro, unless Vassell’s gone at 8 and Okoro is still there. Dude can’t shoot. 67% from the line? No thanks. He’s good at most other things, but does not fit this roster at all. Spacing’s already bad enough without adding another non shooter.

  73. Really doesn’t seem like we will get a starting point guard rotation at #8. So is our point guard rotation still Payton, Ntilikina and Smith (or maybe Peters)

  74. KnickfaninNJ:
    Really doesn’t seem like we will get a starting point guard rotation at #8.So is our point guard rotation still Payton, Ntilikina and Smith (or maybe Peters)

    I am perfectly ok with having Ntilikina, Peters, DSJ, and Harper battle it out for PG minutes if we get a guy like Vassell in the draft or sign Harris. And, given our draft position, I also would have no problem offering VanVleet something like 4/80 at the most to pry him away from Toronto. Before- I was against it. But if there’s a time to take advantage of the market given financial fears for other teams because of the pandemic, it’s now for FVV. It’s not my favorite move, but I won’t be mad at it

  75. Not terribly upset. I feel like there’s going to be very good players available at 8. Mocks are all over the place but it seems like we should be able to get one of Hayes, Avdija, Tobbin. I’m seeing Precious Achiuwa as a selection for us. Don’t know anything about him. And if everyone we love is gone, I would even be fine reaching for high floor player like Nesmith or Bey.

    But boy oh boy… the specter of Cole Anthony looms incredibly large.

  76. Honestly, I have faith in Walt Perrin – if he and his staff go through all the players and think Cole Anthony is the guy, I’m fine with that too.

    The amount of different Knick executives that I have heard you say that you have faith in over the years is…well…enough that I don’t know if I’m too swayed by the fact that you have faith in a guy. ;)

  77. Apropos to nothing, if the NBA is going to continue with this lottery BS, they need to come up with a better system for generating odds. Minnesota has now gotten the #1 pick in 2 of the last 5 lotteries. This after Cleveland won 3 out of 4 lotteries. And Golden State is absolutely not the kind of team a draft lottery is designed to help.

    There is no good reason for odds to be based exclusively on a team’s most recent season. Two simple changes will create a more equitable system:

    1. Focus on a team’s 3 year record. If you’re trying to reward the bad teams, this is a much better indicator. It also discourages tanking because it’s much harder to manipulate your 3 year record in half a season.

    2. Factor in a team’s lottery success over recent seasons. If you’ve been moving up every year, your odds go down. If you’ve been getting skipped every single year, your odds go up.

    This could just be the bitter rantings of a disgruntled Knicks fan, but it seems like a much better system than what they’ve been running.

  78. Apparently this is how Jay Bilas described Anthony Edwards last night:

    “The only questions about his game are his efficiency, decision-making, shot selection, and his defense.”

  79. There’s just so little raw data out there that I wouldn’t be too surprised with teams leaning heavily on workouts. Bring on the 3v3, Cole…
    That said, there really IS good reason to have more faith than usual in the brain trust. I reserve my right to lol until proven otherwise, but objectively this may be the best front office and coaching crew since the 90s.

  80. Begley runs through various draft possibilities, and adds:

    Vassell, it’s worth noting, has some fans at Madison Square Garden, sources say.

    Would’ve been nice to stay at 6, but I think we can get a useful player at 8 if we stay at 8. Though if you say you trust Walt Perrin because of his hits, you also have to acknowledge his misses in the lottery. As Vorkunov notes in his column on the lottery:

    The draft is inherently difficult to nail. It involves luck and skill. It’s hard to say that any team or executive is truly great at it. There’s usually a mix of good and bad selections. Take Walt Perrin, the team’s new assistant GM who brought a long, respected track record of evaluation because of how well the Jazz drafted. They took Rudy Gobert at 27 and Donovan Mitchell at 13 — trading up for both. Great! The Jazz also took Dante Exum at No. 5, traded up for Trey Burke at No. 9, and took Enes Kanter in a lottery with Kemba Walker and Klay Thompson. Not so good. It would be interesting to see if the Knicks would package multiple picks to move up and take one outsized shot at the draft. It could be an indication of Rose’s view of the draft and how he values picks.

    NOTE: This is your periodic reminder to click on links, even if you don’t read the pieces beyond the stuff excerpted here. Clicks = $$$ in the modern media economy.

  81. “The only questions about his game are his efficiency, decision-making, shot selection, and his defense.”

    That’s a Knick, baby!

  82. I like Vassell a lot. Keep it simple, ya know? Get a good 3 point shooting wing who is also good on D and athletic. I think he’s a plug and play right away type player who still has upside. We need shooting BADLY and Thibs would love the motor and defense.

    I think Rose could trade up to try and snag LaMelo but I don’t hold any huge fears about him trading too much to do so. His assistant coaching hires and the words from his mouth point to him being patient.

  83. I did the math on the odds of moving up since 2000 and once you rule out all the years the Knicks traded their pick, made the playoffs or finished with the worst overall record and so couldn’t move up, the odds of them not moving up in that span were about 45%.

    not sure what math you did but this is off. knicks had a non-worst lottery record and their own pick in 20, 18, 17, 15, 09, 08, 05, 03 and 02 without moving up in the lottery. the chances of that are around 18%. 45% is ~the chances of failing to move up in either of 2008 or 2020 by themselves.

  84. also, an apology for a brief political post that should not be in any sense identifiably partisan but haha. alexei navalny is literally being slow motion murdered on live internet by a major world leader and it’s getting about the same attention as tesla’s stock split. it’s a huge mistake to let general demagogue fatigue or habituation dim the lights on horrific stories like this. maybe the biggest mistake.

  85. As I peruse the interwebs, I’m beginning to fall more and more in like with two guys: Saddiq Bey and Aaron Nesmith.

    Neither seems like the ideal reward for a terrible season, but I’m very confident both of them are going to be cost-efficient NBA starters for their first two contracts.

    I know the average Knicks fan is going to want us to hit a home run, but I’ll be ecstatic if the first move of the Rose era is a leadoff walk. Bey and Nesmith seem like those kind of guys.

  86. ptmilo:
    I did the math on the odds of moving up since 2000 and once you rule out all the years the Knicks traded their pick, made the playoffs or finished with the worst overall record and so couldn’t move up, the odds of them not moving up in that span were about 45%.

    not sure what math you did but this is off.knicks had a non-worst lottery record and their own pick in 20, 18, 17, 15, 09, 08, 05, 03 and 02 without moving up in the lottery.the chances of that are around 18%.45% is ~the chances of failing to move up in either of 2008 or 2020 by themselves.

    In ptmilo I Trust

  87. I can see why the Timberwolves would trade their pick, but why would Golden State. They have an unsatisfying center by committee at the moment and Wiseman is good.

    It has been hinted they are in “won now ” mode and willing to sacrifice the beginnings of the next rebuild for a player that will make them a more serious contender for the next 2-3 years. I have no idea how good Wiseman is now or will be, but generally it’s going to take 2-3 years for a player his age to play a major role in a championship run. The rest of their core will be done by then.

  88. Everyone knows I like Frank and want to give him more development time because of his potentially elite defense. secondary play making, and team oriented thinking.

    I’ve been harsh on Knox only because I liked Mikal Bridges so much and he was available. But I haven”t given up on Knox either. I think we may be dismissing him too readily. He had a very rough year shooting last year, but I was watching some highlights recently and he has quite a few skills on offense. It would not shock me if he took a nice jump up next year and started putting it all together. He’s a baby. He has to get stronger and has a lot to learn, but I’ve never seen any indication that he’s not willing to work as hard as he has to make progress. I think I’ve decided to become the founding and only member of the Knox fan club. I’m calling it, “It’s not over until the skinny kid sings”.

  89. that should not be in any sense identifiably partisan

    but…

    but haha

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12382651-the-man-without-a-face

    To anyone who’s like, “Hey, why’s Putin bad?” I refer you to Masha Gessen. Bill Browder can also fill you in.

    But of course, I read on this blog that Russian oligarchs are more free-market than the American left, which, haha, yeah, I guess, if you think there should be an unregulated market on political assassinations.

  90. I think I’ve decided to become the founding and only member of the Knox fan club.

    Z-Man is the president of the Knox fan club!

  91. To anyone who’s like, “Hey, why’s Putin bad?” I refer you to Masha Gessen.

    although it’s a tougher slog that at times appears to slip into a language consisting solely of undulating russian names, i would recommend the more recent putin’s people by ft journalist bolton over gessen. the research depth and support is on another plane. just don’t hate yourself for intermittent skimming.

    weird edit: actually rereading what i wrote above maybe just read gessen after all

  92. 8 is good. There’s no obvious #1 or really any real order. It’s a grab-bag. Just for kicks, I took the 1st 5 rankings/mocks I found on Google:

    ESPN: Edwards, Ball, Wiseman, Avdija, Okongwu, Toppin, Okoro, Haliburton, Hayes, Achiuwa
    NBADraft: Edwards, Toppin, Ball, Okongwu, Avdija, Wiseman, Haliburton, Vassell, Achiuwa, Okoro
    Sporting News: Toppin, Edwards, Wiseman, Ball, Bey, Okongwu, Avdija, Vassell, Okoro, Haliburton
    CBS: Ball, Hayes, Haliburton, Wiseman, Edwards, Okongwu, Avdija, Williams, Toppin, Lewis
    SBNation: Edwards, Ball, Okongwu, Hayes, Toppin, Avdija, Vassell, Haliburton, Maxey

    What’s clear is that there’s no clarity. All that I know is that this team needs shooters badly. Free agency and trades are all on the table. RJ and Mitch are untouchable. I’m assuming that Leon is going to turn over a lot of players. Is it November yet?

    PS: My 1st post since bubble games began. I can’t stomach it.

  93. I get that this is the year that it doesn’t really matter much where you pick, but it would have been nice to get #1 or 2 and have some options, including trading down.

    Now we get to watch 7 other teams make their picks before us. Rose et all could get a hard on for Player X and then have to wait to see if any of those 7 teams do as well.

    4 consecutive lottery picks, and what we have to show for it is Frank, Knox, RJ (who I do have hope for) and the 8th pick this year who will be a total roll of the dice. Ugh……

  94. I know there is no mathematical logic to it, but the #8 slot is the worst. Vin Baker remains the best player that pick has produced in the modern draft era.

    I also know there is no mathematical logic that 60% of the lottery picks the Knicks have made have been at #8.

    I also know there is no mathematical logic to Dolan’s Razor.

    The Razor Is Real

  95. haiku time

    twenty years I been
    in Dolan’s sad wilderness
    let me die now please

  96. Thinking more and more that if Okongwu drops to 8 you just take him or reach for Vassell. The Knicks are going to be horrendous again next year, when the draft projects to be very good, with Cade Cunningham, a PG who looks to be a bona fide star, headlining. Cunningham and Jalen Suggs are both very promising PGs–way better than, say, Kira Lewis Jr. (or Hali’s median outcome, but he’s an enigma and could be mold-breaking, like ptmilo said)–and we could shore up our defense for the next 8 years with Okongwu or Vassell. I guess you could also do this with Haliburton if he can play shooting guard in the NBA–which I think he can.

    It’s emotionally difficult to go yet another year without a functional point guard setting up the offense, but when we draft #8 again next year maybe we can trade up for Cunningham when it’s actually worth it (I like LaMelo but he’s no Cade Cunningham), or just draft Jalen Suggs and get a legit 2 way PG.

  97. Brian Cronin: Z-Man is the president of the Knox fan club!

    More accurately, the “It Was A Colossal Blunder To Pick Him But I Still Hold Out Hope For Knox Becoming A Good Player Someday” club.

  98. Expectation leads to disappointment
    If you don’t expect something big, huge, and exciting then usually
    Uh
    I don’t know, it’s just not as, yeah

  99. Odds were that we picked 4th or worse last year, we moved up to 3rd. Didn’t feel like it, but that’s how the lottery odds work. As for this year, I’d just stay put at 8th and wait to see what shakes out-maybe someone is dying to move up 4-5 spots for a particular guy and we can get another asset. The second or third best prospect in last year’s draft went 21st. NBA teams still aren’t great at this stuff

  100. DRed:
    Odds were that we picked 4th or worse last year, we moved up to 3rd.Didn’t feel like it, but that’s how the lottery odds work.As for this year, I’d just stay put at 8th and wait to see what shakes out-maybe someone is dying to move up 4-5 spots for a particular guy and we can get another asset.The second or third best prospect in last year’s draft went 21st.NBA teams still aren’t great at this stuff

    +1 Remember that Mikal cost PHX an unprotected #1

  101. But at least they have the flexibility of dumping all of the current roster after it led to them getting the #8 pick! That’s…something?

  102. More accurately, the “It Was A Colossal Blunder To Pick Him But I Still Hold Out Hope For Knox Becoming A Good Player Someday” club.

    No joke, I seriously was going to write something very similar as an alternate title (I was going to say, “Well, the ‘It is too soon to give up on Knox club,’ at least”). That’s too funny.

  103. PS: My 1st post since bubble games began. I can’t stomach it.

    hey GoNYGo, I hope all is well for you…just wondering, what is it about the nba restart that you don’t enjoy (other than the fact the knicks aren’t there)…

  104. Odds were that we picked 4th or worse last year, we moved up to 3rd. Didn’t feel like it, but that’s how the lottery odds work.

    the question was about moving relative to actual predraft position. plus, that isn’t the right way to think about it anyway. the difference between the first pick and 3rd pick is much, much larger than the 3 vs. 5. not just in a zion year, in an average year too, but especially last year. so if our equity last year was more akin to something like having a 15pct chance of winning $10, a 15 pct chance of winning $5 a 15pct chance of $2 and a 55pct chance of getting $1 at 4/5, we still got unlucky. sure, we got modestly better than an average expected pick at 3 vs 4ish but far worse than average expected equity at (say) $2 vs ~$3. some lotteries mean you win big or you’ve lost.

  105. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada:
    Thinking more and more that if Okongwu drops to 8 you just take him or reach for Vassell. The Knicks are going to be horrendous again next year, when the draft projects to be very good, with Cade Cunningham,a PG who looks to be a bona fide star, headlining. Cunningham and Jalen Suggs are both very promising PGs–way better than, say, Kira Lewis Jr. (or Hali’s median outcome, but he’s an enigma and could be mold-breaking, like ptmilo said)–and we could shore up our defense for the next 8 years with Okongwu or Vassell. I guess you could also do this with Haliburton if he can play shooting guard in the NBA–which I think he can.

    It’s emotionally difficult to go yet another year without a functional point guard setting up the offense, but when we draft #8 again next year maybe we can trade up for Cunningham when it’s actually worth it (I like LaMelo but he’s no Cade Cunningham), or just draft Jalen Suggs and get a legit 2 way PG.

    Problem is, there is no way we don’t make the playoffs next year, or at least have like the 12th seed in the lottery. Thibs was not brought in to tank. So next year we’ll have like the #12-15 and Dallas’ pick, probably #20-25.

    I’m not as high on Vassell as most, he seems like a player you can pick up for $5-10 mill every year. I’d rather roll the dice on Nesmith or Lewis, hoping to get a guy that’s hard to find w/o paying a huge premium.

  106. For the other amateur capologists out there, the projected salary for the #8 pick over the next 3 years is as follows:

    $5,123040
    $5,379240
    $5,635,320

    Not to be optimistic or anything, but imagine if we nail this pick. (And when I say “nail this pick”, I don’t mean hit a home run; I mean get a nice quality NBA starter.)

    In the summer of 2021 we could have a core of this pick, Barrett, and Mitchell for $15mm. We’d have two first round picks in the upcoming draft and enough cap space to sign two max free agents.

    It’s not a bad dream.

  107. Brian Cronin: No joke, I seriously was going to write something very similar as an alternate title (I was going to say, “Well, the ‘It is too soon to give up on Knox club,’ at least”). That’s too funny.

    lol! Either way, this is a make or break year for him, Thibs will probably tighten the leash if he keeps missing and blowing defensive assignments. He’s shown that he can make plays, just not nearly consistently enough. Is it a maturity thing or something not fixable? We’ll find out this year. I’m wondering how much info will leak out of the “minicamp” that was just sanctioned for the Delete 8.

  108. >>> I’d just stay put at 8th and wait to see what shakes out-maybe someone is dying to move up 4-5 spots for a particular guy and we can get another asset. <<<

    It would be swell if Boston fell in love with someone at 8. They have 3 1st round picks in this draft and barely enough roster spots. I would swap 8 for 14 & 26 (to go along with 27 and 38).

  109. LaMelo
    Wiseman
    Okongwu
    Edwards
    Haliburton
    Avdija
    Hayes
    Toppin

    Most mocks have these guys as the top 8. I’d be happy with any of them but Hayes, and even he has at least some intrigue as a DAR clone (I don’t see it, but if he’s the guy I can hope.)

    Personally I’d go for either Nesmith or Lewis, and I wouldn’t be shocked if one or both of those guys got picked before us, pushing a couple of the names above down to #8. There seems to be less reason to fear “reaching” in this draft, so even a Bey or Precious or Poku can crack the top 7. One thing to keep in mind is that all of these players have had an extra 4 months to work on their games and fill out, so what you see in film from February is not necessarily what you will get. (That goes for Cole too, sorry to say!)

    Such a weird freaking year!

  110. Moving up is always better but of all the years to not this is the one. 8 seems fine. My top 5 are:

    Hayes
    Okongwu
    Vassell
    Haliburton
    Advija

    At least one if not 2-3 of those players will still be around at #8. Hayes, Hali, and Vassel are around at 8 on a lot of mocks. Advija and Okongwu less so but them dropping wouldn’t be a huge shock. I’m actually kind of glad we aren’t in a position to take Ball (overrated and inefficient), Wiseman (bad fit with Mitch), or Edwards (bad fit with RJ).

    Drafting a PG in Hayes or Haliburton would be great but not getting one would be okay. I’m willing to see what happens with Frank and then signing a place holder starter/future sixth man like Shane Larkin. Hell, even keeping Payton on wouldn’t be the end of the world.

    I don’t think we’ll reach for Anthony lets give Rose a bit of credit.

  111. I think the big hope is that other franchises are dumb before we’re allowed to act dumbly

  112. Hubert:
    >>>I’d just stay put at 8th and wait to see what shakes out-maybe someone is dying to move up 4-5 spots for a particular guy and we can get another asset. <<<

    It would be swell if Boston fell in love with someone at 8.They have 3 1st round picks in this draft and barely enough roster spots.I would swap 8 for 14 & 26 (to go along with 27 and 38).

    I’d be reluctant to do that, at least until I see who is picked in the top 7. But it’s not a bad idea if you think the guy you want will be there at #14.

  113. ***Expectation leads to disappointment
    If you don’t expect something big, huge, and exciting then usually
    Uh
    I don’t know, it’s just not as, yeah***

    KnickerBloggerPowerRankings with a post-modern haiku for a post-modern NBA.

  114. >>> I’d be reluctant to do that, at least until I see who is picked in the top 7. But it’s not a bad idea if you think the guy you want will be there at #14. <<<

    I see guys like Nesmith and Bey available at 14 in most of these mocks, that's why I was thinking it. I really like Nesmith's profile (i.e. I love that he can shoot!), but 8 currently seems high for him. A lot can change, though. He'll probably go 7th.

  115. Z-man: I’d be reluctant to do that, at least until I see who is picked in the top 7. But it’s not a bad idea if you think the guy you want will be there at #14.

    When we pick Cole Anthony, I’d much rather do it at 14 than 8. So yeah, why not?

  116. Poku only weighs 200 lbs. That’s crazy to me. I’m 1’4″ shorter and weigh 200. I’m not even that out of shape.

    Poku also needs to get better at putting the ball in the basket. His catch and shoot game looks gorgeous but he’s only shooting 32% from 3 and he’s awful inside the arc.

    Greek B is not a good league. I’m not sure how his game will translate to the NBA.

    He’s fine as a late-first flier, but I think people are overvaluing him.

  117. As I said, Poku may have been lifting weights and eating shakes non-stop since Feb and may weigh 220 by October, who knows? I woudn’t take him in the lottery, but dumber things have happened.

  118. Devin Vassell seems like an NBA player, let’s get him. Put him at the 2 and RJ at the 3. Both guys are good switchable defenders and have complementary skill sets on offense.

    Do eeeeeeet

  119. Reports are that Devin Vassell “has some fans” in the Knicks front office. If true, then he’s an early candidate to be drafted 7th.

  120. Moving up is always better but of all the years to not this is the one. 8 seems fine. My top 5 are:

    Hayes
    Okongwu
    Vassell
    Haliburton
    Advija

    These are also my five, with Hayes and Okongwu first, and the other three a tier beneath. Unlike some notable board members here, I’d feel pretty good about a Hayes pick, considering he just turned 19 and improved so quickly in such a short time, which speaks to a good work ethic.

    I feel fine about Hali and Vassell at 8, too. The only one who somewhat concerns me is Avdija because of his shooting numbers, especially the free throws.

  121. JK47:
    Devin Vassell seems like an NBA player, let’s get him. Put him at the 2 and RJ at the 3. Both guys are good switchable defenders and have complementary skill sets on offense.

    Do eeeeeeet

    He’d be a fine pick but I wouldn’t be all that excited about it.

  122. The thing about Poku is that while his 3pt shooting is only at 32%, he’s done it at legit volume (approaching 5 3s taken per game) and his shot selection along with his passing and stock numbers screams “intelligent player” (.504 3PAR and otherwise pretty much entirely around the rim). Despite being a beanpole he’s still averaging 12 rpg against much bigger and stronger competition. Yes, Olympiacos B sucks, but that didn’t preclude Giannis from coming from it. In general his shooting percentages are bad, and that also lends some pretty high bust potential because if he doesn’t fill out his ceiling is something like Ryan Anderson who shoots worse but can do things on defense. But if the form, passing, and stocks are even remotely real the sky is the limit. I think it comes down to whether you see that in him. I do, and I’d definitely take him over Cole Anthony. Would i take him over Vassell? Probably not. But this guy, unlike Kevin Knox, is a legit high risk high reward prospect.

  123. What a weird pre-draft vibe. Instead of arguing whether the one-and-done Kentucky underachiever has more upside than the Euroleague MVP, or whether the ultra-efficient, swiss-army-knife 23-year-old is a better pick than the 19-year-old who can’t drive with his right hand, we’re out here with the Swaggy P meme plastered on all our faces.

    Seriously, who the fuck is the future superstar in this draft? I HAVE NO IDEA

  124. outside of doncic and porzingis (and maybe kurucs and osman)…the foreign draftees in the last 5 years have not impressed (2014 was a good one)…I would like to stay away from Hayes, Avidji, et al…get some homegrown talent…

  125. People compare this draft to 2013, but 2013 had Giannis, Oladipo, and Gobert. Only one of them went in the high lottery, though, and needed to pass through multiple teams to live up to his potential.

  126. The more I settle in on that 8th pick being Cole Anthony is the more I feel his season should be thrown into the “lost” category and not the “he was terrible” category. I mean, yes, he was absolutely not productive relative to other successful NBA draft picks but he maybe played 7 games healthy all season, and then he had a knee tear he was playing through or recovering from. I look at his highlights and see a more athletic version of Fred VanVleet.

    That being said, I want to make crystal clear that I do not think it would be smart to pick him 8th overall. My choice there would be Aaron Nesmith, who is easily the best shooter in this draft. He’s not a perfect prospect, but the things he does well (team defending and 3 point shooting) are things every team needs more of. You can watch his film and see a guy who will be one of the best shooters of his generation, and if he develops a game off the dribble he’s going to see 3-4 all star games in his career. Out of every player in this draft, he’s the one that excites me most about developing under Johnnie Bryant.

    Devin Vassell has a funny-ish release and did not shoot free throws well, so I’m concerned the 3 point shooting will not translate right away. The high release is weird but Michael Redd was a high level scorer with maybe a worse release so it’s not doomed either. There’s enough there defensively and off the dribble to squint and see all star upside, but I think he has a couple years to go before the physical strength and the offense catch up to the defense. Depending on how we use him, he has a little Landry Fields to him as an off guard.

    I don’t think Kira Lewis Jr will be ready to start from Day 1 and because of that I don’t know if the Knicks are a patient enough organization. Okongwu isn’t worth discussing.

  127. outside of doncic and porzingis (and maybe kurucs and osman)…the foreign draftees in the last 5 years have not impressed (2014 was a good one)…I would like to stay away from Hayes, Avidji, et al…get some homegrown talent…

    To be fair, the domestic players don’t really impress, either. Such is the nature of talent distribution in the NBA: a handful of superstars, a smattering of second-tier stars and glue guys, reliable minutes-eaters/usage soakers and then a whole bunch of scrubs.

  128. Alan:
    People compare this draft to 2013, but 2013 had Giannis, Oladipo, and Gobert. Only one of them went in the high lottery, though, and needed to pass through multiple teams to live up to his potential.

    Weird thing about the 2013 draft is that nearly half of the 60 players draafted became legit NBA rotation players at some point. Even Ben McLemore is coming around. What may give Knicks fans hope is that 6 of the top 8 players (by VORP) were drafted #10 or below. It seems to suggest that your best bet in a draft like this is to go with either a big or a non-freshman college player.

  129. The Honorable Cock Jowles: To be fair, the domestic players don’t really impress, either. Such is the nature of talent distribution in the NBA: a handful of superstars, a smattering of second-tier stars and glue guys, reliable minutes-eaters/usage soakers and then a whole bunch of scrubs.

    true and I guess you can argue something like the overall pool of domestic is bigger so the probabilities are similar…it’s just that the benders, exums’, etc., got me soured on the imports although I am intrigued by that greek beanpole dude….

  130. To be more clear, I think there’s a tendency here to be down on players like Okongwu and Wiseman because they aren’t a good fit with Mitch. I personally couldn’t care less about that, not when we only have 2 legit prospects (being generous to RJ) and a bunch of shitty vets on short-term deals and scrubby young guys. We need good players at every position, and should draft the best player available. If it’s Okongwu or Wiseman, draft them and fill the other positions in some other way.

  131. Z-man:
    To be more clear, I think there’s a tendency here to be down on players like Okongwu and Wiseman because they aren’t a good fit with Mitch. I personally couldn’t care less about that, not when we only have 2 legit prospects (being generous to RJ) and a bunch of shitty vets on short-term deals and scrubby young guys. We need good players at every position, and should draft the best player available. If it’s Okongwu or Wiseman, draft them and fill the other positions in some other way.

    agree but i don’t see wiseman being there at 8…would have to move down..

  132. Seriously, who the fuck is the future superstar in this draft? I HAVE NO IDEA

    If I’m betting on all-NBA upside, I’d take Aaron Nesmith, Devin Vassell, and LaMelo Ball. You have to look at who has elite skills and enough two-way to stay on the floor to put up the numbers. LaMelo Ball is a 6’7″ PG with elite level passing and rebounding for the position, and by virtue cannot be a poor defender when he’s oversized at the position. Aaron Nesmith is already an elite shooter who can attack the basket on closeouts and not get you smoked on defense. From there he can build his offensive game to be a high usage 2nd option next to a true franchise player. Devin Vassell has all defense potential with enough there offensively to see him get up to 18 ppg, and next to a real superstar he can be Khris Middleton or Klay Thompson.

    True superstars tend to skip a draft class or two. I don’t think that guy is in this draft, but unless you have a true generational talent like LeBron, AD, or Ben Simmons, you need to develop an organization that extracts the most out of a player before you can get one. If KP got drafted to the Celtics he’s probably the best player in the NBA by now, but we drafted him. If we get to a place where we’re taking the SGAs, Mikal Bridges, and Aaron Nesmiths while finding the Joe Ingles and Duncan Robinson types in undrafted free agency, we can create a system where a guy who is currently all potential, measurables, and work ethic turns into Giannis Antetokounmpo, Draymond Green, Jaylen Brown, Nikola Jokic, or Jimmy Butler.

  133. Z-man: Why?

    We have Mitchell Robinson and there’s no way the Knicks will actually draft him. I also think he’ll be a Golden State Warrior unless James Wiseman blows the doors off his individual workout with the Warriors.

  134. It’s hilarious just how flawed all of the Western Conference teams are. Even the really good ones.

    They’re almost all better than their Eastern Conference counterparts, but it’s still just so funny how they each have such glaring weaknesses.

  135. If it’s Okongwu or Wiseman, draft them and fill the other positions in some other way.

    As you can probably tell by my avatar, I’m a lifelong Jets fan. This past decade I watched the Jets take the BPA interior D-Lineman I think 5 times between Mo Wilkerson, Quinton Coples, Sheldon Richardson, Leonard Williams, and Quinnen Williams, nevermind the fact that we find guys like Henry Anderson, Damon Harrison, Mike DeVito, Sione Pouha, Kyle Philips, and a list of other guys to play interior DL very well outside of our premium draft assets. That’s how I feel about drafting a center in the lottery, especially with Mitchell Robinson on the roster; it’s a poor waste of assets given the landscape of the roster and the Knicks’ ability to either draft a guy late or sign a guy for dirt cheap. Can we agree on these two things?

    1) There will be at least one good basketball player taken after pick #8.
    2) That good basketball player will not be a center.

    I don’t think those are unreasonable premises to accept. If there will be a good wing or point guard available at pick 8, that’s the guy we need. Those guys are traditional harder to land and more expensive to pay in free agency, so getting a good one under team control for at max 9 years should be at the top of the priority list. I’d be pretty let down if Okongwu, Wiseman, Nesmith, and Vassell were all available at pick 8 and we took one of the bigs. A big isn’t going to help space the floor for RJ Barrett.

  136. DRed:
    “I thought he had a horrible year. I thought he was really bad.”

    -Greg Anthony, on his son

    Here’s the rest of that quote:

    Now, he got hurt, and he was hurt earlier than when he actually ended up having to shut it down, and that had an effect on him, but he could’ve been so much better

    The kids stats are not pretty, and everybody in his camp knows he had a bad frosh season at UNC. I do think that it would be pretty foolish to not look into a high level prospect by all accounts who had his season derailed by the same type of injury that cut Derrick Rose’s peak short, though. Again, I’m not even trying to advocate for the kid, but it’s pretty hard to be an explosive point guard when you have a tear in your meniscus, and it’s tough to be an explosive point guard when you’re recovering from mid-season knee surgery.

  137. Some info on Olympiakos BC (Pokusevski’s team)

    From me:
    Olympiakos BC is one of the best teams outside the NBA and has won the Euroleage title 3 times without being the favourite and without depending on a huge budget compared to its opponents.

    From wiki:
    “Olympiacos Basketball Club B, was founded as the reserve team of the Greek EuroLeague club Olympiacos Piraeus, in September 2019. The team was founded after the relegation of the senior Olympiacos team, from Greece’s top-tier level Greek Basket League, down to the 2nd-tier level Greek A2 Basket League (Greek 2nd Division). That relegation was due to a punishment by the Hellenic Basketball Federation, for the senior team’s forfeiture of several 2018–19 Greek League season and 2018–19 Greek Cup games.”

    Notable nba players that have played on the team:
    Roy Tarpley, Pat Beverley, Eddie Johnson, Dino Radja

  138. It’s also worth noting that Cole Anthony got the green light from Roy Williams to play hero ball. That Tar Heels team was really, really bad.

    Drafting Cole Anthony ahead of Devin Vassell and Aaron Nesmith would be a bad idea. I think we need another wing to pair with RJ Barrett so that he doesn’t get swarmed and destroyed by Brown and Tatum four times a year, and I’m against drafting point guards who aren’t already elite as an athlete, shooter, or ball handler. Maybe we take Cole Anthony and he tanks us into Cade Cunningham, Jalen Green, or Johnathan Kuminga to be RJ Barrett’s Batman, and then Johnnie Bryant turns Cole Anthony into a more athletic FVV. Either way, it’s not a good strategy and we should go get the elite shooter or elite defender. Maybe we can trade up into the late teens to draft Cole Anthony, but at 8 it’s way too soon.

    We all know how this story ends, though.

  139. rebecca just said one of the players were shitting shots…hahahahahahaha…good to see her on the sidelines…

  140. The Glass Half Rebuilt: 1) There will be at least one good basketball player taken after pick #8.
    2) That good basketball player will not be a center.

    So you think it would have been a bad idea to draft Bam Adebayo or Montrezl Harrell at #8 in this draft? Okongwu had a .645 TS% on a 23.6% usage, and averaged 11.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks per 40 in a tough conference as an 18yo. It would be incredibly dumb to pass on him if he falls to #8. Which is moot because it is highly unlikely that all seven of the teams picking above us would be that dumb.

    Wiseman is another story, but I would still pick him in a heartbeat if he fell to #8 because I think at the very least that he will have surplus trade value for the life of his rookie deal. And I believe in his offense being more than a rim-runner. He’s riskier than Okongwu but everyone in this draft has major warts, and Wiseman put up astronomical stats in a tiny sample right out of the box. But I can understand feeling differently about him,.

  141. in other news – it was 108 degrees outside today…that’s a little over 42 celsius for you all in the rest of the world…

    now, hot temps aren’t all that rare here in this area – what was odd about this though was the accompanying wind with this extreme heat…

    read just recently that a fire tornado had appeared somewhere here in cali…i’ll tell ya, if that ain’t a sign for end times, i’m not sure what is…maybe when those little lizard things that are everywhere here start dropping from the sky – that might just do it…

    pyrocumulonimbus cloud – what in the hell….

  142. I doubt he will drop to us but I could see Okongwu develop into a 4 to pair next to Robinson. He is a solid free throw shooter so there is hope he will develop a 3 point shot. He likes to face the basket and is a good perimeter defender. I could see him being a very good 4. I don’t think he is completely redundant with Robinson like Wiseman is.

  143. not as warm up here in NorCal but with the wild fires…the air quality is horrible…and wine country is burning up again..

  144. Yes, whoever had Firenado, Global Pandemic, and Double Hurricane on their Apocalypse Bingo card is feeling pretty good right now….

  145. So you think it would have been a bad idea to draft Bam Adebayo or Montrezl Harrell at #8 in this draft? Okongwu had a .645 TS% on a 23.6% usage, and averaged 11.3 rebounds and 3.5 blocks per 40 in a tough conference as an 18yo. It would be incredibly dumb to pass on him if he falls to #8. Which is moot because it is highly unlikely that all seven of the teams picking above us would be that dumb.

    Using 2017 as a reference, we did the wrong thing and took Frank Ntilikina over Luke Kennard, Bam Adebayo, Donovan Mitchell, OG Anunoby, Montrezl Harrell, Kyle Kuzma, and Dillon Brooks. Adebayo, Harrell, Okungwu, and Wiseman would obviously all be better picks than Cole Anthony, but in a world where we have Mitchell Robinson and you can really only play one-non shooting big at a time (really you can only get away with playing one non shooter at the highest level of the league), taking Okungwu/Wiseman does nothing for your immediate synergy and it takes away an opportunity to add a quality wing/guard on a below market deal. Whether or not Donovan Mitchell will be worthy of the max contract he eventually signs either in Utah or elsewhere, he’s absolutely worth more money than his rookie scale contract.

    I think my point is unless you need a center, don’t take a center. Those guys are valuable, but I don’t know if the difference between DeAndre Ayton (can’t miss elite big man prospect) and say Myers Leonard is great enough to pass on Trae Young or Shai Gilgeous Alexander. Similarly, I don’t know if I take Okungwu over Ball, Zeke Nnaji over Tyrell Terry, Wiseman over Devin Vassell, and the list goes on.

  146. i think any draft strategy based on the assumption that Mitch is a slam dunk (no pun intended) future 30-35 minute a game, double-double guy and thus we cannot take someone who might actually project as good or better than him is a flawed strategy…I love him and is my favorite player on the team right now but Wiseman was pre-season considered a number 1 pick..if in some fantasy world he falls to 8…absent that being because he got caught in the same headset as Laremy Tunsil on draft day…you gotta take him…

  147. Yes, whoever had Firenado, Global Pandemic, and Double Hurricane on the their Apocalypse Bingo card is feeling pretty good right now….

    that is some funny shit right there owen :)

    there just has to be a meteor out there floating around somewhere with our name on it…

  148. I’m definitely coming around to wanting Nesmith, depending on how he checks out with the medical staff. His shooting skills might be on par with Lamelo’s passing skills — he’s that good. A much more fluid scorer than Vassell on higher volume. And with a 6’11” wingspan, he has a lot of defensive potential.

    His sample size this year was small, but it was an amazing one, and he seemed like a very smart kid when he sat down with Mike Schmitz. I would pull the trigger at 8.

  149. yes we are not good enough to not be picking the best player available….. mitch is great but he hasn’t been able to crack 25mpg….. if we have two great centers/pf then it’s much better to have that kind of problem than having the problem where the guy you pick sucks….

    okwongwu doesn’t suck… and in fact he probably has the highest upside out of anyone else in the draft… his physical ability, hands and touch around the rim is quite rare and he has the potential to be much much more than a rim runner…

    if he’s just a rim runner…. then he’s just like a lot of other pretty good centers in the league…. but if he’s more than that then he is one of the most valuable commodities in the nba….. if he’s there…. you cannot let having mitch stop you from picking him…..

  150. The “pick according to your needs” strategy has burned many teams in the past.
    The “pick the best player available” burns only the clueless teams who can’t figure out who’s bpa when there’s their turn to pick.
    If i had Olajuwon and Ewing already in my team I’d pick Shaq too if i had the chance and then trade or made them fit together!

  151. Personally, I think not picking good players has been what held the Knicks back, not picking according to our needs. If we needed a guard and identified that as a need in 2017, we should have taken Luke Kennard or Donovan Mitchell. If we needed a forward in 2018, Mikal Bridges or Michael Porter Jr.

    Not being able to identify good players in the draft has hampered the Knicks way more than passing on good players because of “need,” unless you consider passing on SGA because we had Frank and passing on Bam because we had KP need-based decisions. I think that’s what Phoenix did with Ayton over Doncic and what Memphis did with JJJr over Trae Young. I’m also not necessarily advocating for that.

    Aaron Nesmith, in a limited sample size for sure, scored 23 points a game shooting at a .685 TS% on a 26.3 USG% at Vanderbilt this season. He converted 4.3 3PM a night on a ridiculous 52% from 3. He has an NBA body and ideal height/weight/wingspan for the position. I’m saying you don’t pass on that guy for Okungwu if you’re the Knicks because you already have a good center prospect, and you can find a starting level center for much cheaper than you can find a starting floor-spacer wing type. It’s why Danny Green makes more money this year than Dwight Howard and Javale McGee combined, and why the Clippers gave up their 1st round pick for Marcus Morris. You need shooting wings, and when a guy like Aaron Nesmith comes around you probably shouldn’t take the big ahead of him unless that big is like KAT or Anthony Davis.

    Maybe Okungwu is a Hall of Fame center and Mitch never stops fouling. I do think Mitchell Robinson is our best player and I’m excited to see what he does in year 3 under Thibs and Payne. I also think Barrett and Robinson would benefit tremendously from playing with a guy like Nesmith who can space the floor and give them room to operate in the middle.

  152. I’m also probably not the best guy to discuss this topic because I think RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson have top 25 player potential and a reasonable chance to meet those ceilings. I want the Knicks to fucking commit to the guys in our building because we need continuity, and taking guys at the same position to me feels like a threat to that continuity. We can’t build a winning culture if we don’t value on-court synergy and if guys don’t feel secure enough because it’s year 3 and we just took a guy in the lottery that plays your position. That’s how you treat Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina, not the guy who just broke Wilt Chamberlain’s FG% record that’s been standing since the 70s.

  153. Of the best 10 mock drafts to come out after the lottery, these 10 players were the ones in each one:

    Edwards, Wiseman, Ball, Avdija, Okongwu, Toppin, Okoro, Haliburton, Hayes and Nesmith.

    Aside from Edwards and Ball, I feel like any of the rest could be there at 8. Worst case scenario would probably be picking between Avdija, Okoro, and Toppin, which isn’t so bad.

  154. The Drafts give teams the opportunity to pick players according to their needs or to pick assets.
    If you feel that the pf/c of this draft have less value than the pgs and the wings it’s logical to pick them.
    But avoiding them because you already have a great one ain’t the best choice imo.
    I hear about “Knicks Need PG” and “Knicks need Shooting” a lot and quite fairly.
    But you shouldn’t avoid getting a Top PF or a Top C for a mediocre PG or for a role player shooter. It’s not smart.

  155. Let me give a record Collector example:
    Let’s say that i have 20$ in my pocket and go to a record shop for vinyl hunting.
    There i find a not rare vinyl that i’d like to add in my collection which costs 20$ and worths 20$ and one other that i already have in my collection which is wrongly priced due to shop’s cluelessness for 20$ that worths 250$!
    Guess which one I’m going to buy

  156. I guess I should back off Okongwu a bit, he’s got a high floor and great measurables for his age but is still pretty raw. I hope he gets taken in the top 7 so that it isn’t a question. Of the guys who may be available, I like Haliburton, Nesmith and Lewis Jr. the most, but it’s hard to have any firm conviction about anyone. Okongwu could turn out to be Bismack Biyombo, which would suck.

  157. The Clippers finally came to play playoff basketball. They are playing more physical and are actually trying. They played maybe one quarter of decent basketball the first two games. Maybe all the in and out of the bubble stuff was part of it, but whatever it was they are rounding back into form.

  158. Doncic is almost certainly an idiot savant of some sort. In all my decades of watching basketball I never saw a more talented and brilliant idiot. lmao

  159. only real big surprise so far seems to be the jazz smashing the nuggets 2 games in a row…well, that and okc not playing better…

  160. geo: only real big surprise so far seems to be the jazz smashing the nuggets 2 games in a row…well, that and okc not playing better…

    Denver getting their asses handed to them isn’t really much of a surprise. They almost lost in the 1st round last year and they were the 2 seed. OKC getting destroyed the way they are? Now that’s a surprise. It must be because Russ isn’t on the floor to muck things up.

  161. ***whoever had Firenado, Global Pandemic, and Double Hurricane on the their Apocalypse Bingo card is feeling pretty good right now….***

    I had Derecho, Race Riots, and Murder Hornets. But I also have Liberal Vampire Pedophilia Cabal, which I just can’t get to come up no matter how much I post about it on 8Chan.

  162. Also, the description of RJ’s “context” is a nice rejoinder to all those who described last year’s off-season shit-fest as “of no consequence” since they were all short-term deals…

    Man, was last year’s offseason so fucking dumb.

  163. The highlight of that Ringer article:

    The silver lining to being a team that needs help everywhere is that virtually everyone could help you; New York doesn’t have to approach the pick as if it’ll be a failure or disappointment if it doesn’t yield a star, so long as it provides a ceiling-raising complement to what’s already on hand.

    I’m in the Nesmith/Vessell/anyone who can shoot camp. That’s a nice block to add to Barrett and Mitch.

  164. I’m getting sold on the idea of Nesmith or Vassell at 8. I can definitely see Nesmith turning into one of the better players in the draft.

  165. I, too, am on board with anyone who can outright shoot at #8. I just need the Knicks to have someone who can spread the floor. Please, Knicks, please.

  166. Would be totally fine with Halliburton, Kira, Vassell, Hayes, Nesmith, Bey, or Poku. Basically just do t draft Cole Anthony.

    Unless the pick is Kira and Hayes, everyone on this list can be an off-ball guy and can be a great shooter and at least adequate defender. And I think Kira and Hayes are good enough prospects even if the shooting isn’t great. If we don’t draft Kira or Hayes, then go get FVV to be the primary ball handler.

  167. My guess is we fuck up and trade up. The top of the draft is interesting-both Minny & GS want to win now. Does Minny want to draft Edwards, who is a very Wigginsish prospect? They probably don’t want LaMelo because they just invested big money in a PG who the got to keep their star happy. I’ve seen a lot of mocks put Wiseman to Golden State, but do they want to waste the end of Steph’s prime (which I think is already past, but they probably don’t agree) on a developmental big? Do they just take Okongwu?

  168. But what do we have that GSW would want, other than Mitch maybe? And I’m not trading Mitch for any of these prospects.

  169. Maybe all 3 picks this year and another 1st would get it done, then they could trade the picks for current players.

  170. Thing is, GSW are already over the cap, so they probably are fine with a young big like Wiseman or Okongwu who can hit the ground running. They also might take a close look at Toppin, who is ready to play now.

    Honestly, who knows?

  171. If the centers were clearly BPA, then there would be a case for taking one at 8 and figuring out the Mitch overlap problem afterward. But the fact is that practically no one in this draft is the BPA. Even if the Knicks front office really likes Okongwu, they have to be humble enough to say, “Well, this is only our opinion, and a lot of scouts disagree, and we could easily be wrong.”

    I would avoid the centers in this draft. We have so many other needs. Practically anyone else will be able to play right away and help right away.

  172. i don’t find the arguments in that article convincing. rj’s potential assists to assist ratio was actually a lower than average. the guys on knicks who appear most hurt by shitty teammate shooting in the potast/ast ratios are randle, dsj and frank (guys who were hurt by rj’s bad shooting). what’s more, the variability from just this ratio is quite tiny, and if adjusted for things like below average 3pt shooting you still end up with the same basic meh assist level rj actually had. it’s also true that if you look at the history of passy non point guards, those who started their careers with shitty offensives do not show a tendency to have abnormally poor rookie year assist rates relative to their career. guys like jimmy jackson, steve smith, chris mullin. if you’re going to have hope about rj’s passing, i think 98pct is about him being 19 and not getting opportunities to initiate on a stupidly constructed knicks team of mediocre ball hogs, not about the bad shooting around him. finally, watching rj play every game did not scream of a stifled assist machine. elfrid payton averaged a career hi 9.3 per 36 on the same anemic offense.

    i also think the point amount mitch’s foul rate perhaps being hurt by covering for weak teammates is pretty strongly disliked by the data, but i just got too bored with myself to explain it.

  173. Maybe all 3 picks this year and another 1st would get it done, then they could trade the picks for current players.

    That seems quite expensive to me. We definitely shouldn’t be giving up picks in future, presumably better, drafts for a pick in this draft. My impression of this draft is that you can get useful players but probably not get impact players in it. Let’s just get a useful player and keep our future picks. Since we can probably get a useful player with our current pick, why trade at all?

  174. KnickfaninNJ: That seems quite expensive to me. We definitely shouldn’t be giving up picks in future, presumably better, drafts for a pick in this draft.My impression of this draft is that you can get useful players but probably not get impact players in it. Let’s just get a useful player and keep our future picks.Since we can probably get a useful player with our current pick, why trade at all?

    I wouldn’t do it, but I doubt that GSW would take anything less. So if it happens (and I doubt it does) then we know that the era of optimism about this FO is going to be short-lived.

    You could argue that getting an impact player in the lower part of this draft is unlikely, and that the future pick we would give up is likely lower than the lottery in that year, so it becomes sort of a “move up for Luka” type trade in the FO’s mind. Of course, we know that LaMelo is not Luka, so again, it would be a very bad sign.

  175. I would be more apt to trade down than up in this draft, although we could be fine either way.

    The comps for the top two guys just isn’t that high (I’m thinking Rubio for LaMelo and a mix of Ingram/Jaylen Brown-but shorter for Edwards.)

    Those aren’t bad outcomes, but they wouldn’t move the needle. In this case, it probably makes more sense to accumulate more picks, not give up some to move up.

  176. pt, did you notice that earlybirdrights.com is dead? You suggested that site to me a couple of years ago and I used it all the time since. The moderator got a good job, it seems.

    Are you aware of a site that you can use to calculate ws48 or BPM or VORP or even PER if you input boxscore-based stats? In other words, if you put in RJ’s stats from last year and manipulated them to see where the greatest leverage for improvement was (not that it’s not obvious, RJ needs to shoot better from everywhere, turn the ball over less, etc.).

  177. ***But what do we have that GSW would want, other than Mitch maybe? And I’m not trading Mitch for any of these prospects.***

    If the Knicks still had Porzingis, they could probably trade him to the Warriors for this year’s #2 pick + Minnesota’s 2021 1-3 protected pick/2022 unprotected pick + Wiggins’ contract. probably a better haul than the Dallas package will turn out to be. (Would Golden State even do the two picks for Mitch if the Knicks offered?)

  178. ess-dog: Those aren’t bad outcomes, but they wouldn’t move the needle. In this case, it probably makes more sense to accumulate more picks, not give up some to move up.

    I’d be fine with using picks to move up if we turned around and used cap space to acquire more picks. But that doesn’t seem likely given the Thibs hire.

  179. Donnie Walsh:
    ***But what do we have that GSW would want, other than Mitch maybe? And I’m not trading Mitch for any of these prospects.***

    If the Knicks still had Porzingis, they could probably trade him to the Warriors for this year’s #2 pick Minnesota’s 2021 1-3 protected pick/2022 unprotected pick Wiggins’ contract. probably a better haul than the Dallas package will turn out to be. (Would Golden State even do the two picks for Mitch if the Knicks offered?)

    Unless KP took the QO, which he threatened to do…then we’d have a lot less leverage, or by now would not be able to trade him at all.

  180. Okay, money where the mouth is. Assuming we stay at 8 and roughly four players definitely won’t be available then (Edwards, LaMelo, Wiseman, Hayes, although various mocks have Hayes around 8 or even lower). What’s your first and second choice? Acknowledging that this is a mix of irrational exuberance and willful ignorance (see Strat, that’s not so hard…), at the moment I’d go with Haliburton as my first choice (shooter-check; point guard-check; IQ-check; defense-check), and Nesmith second (shooter-check; IQ-check; defense-check; was great on The Monkees-check).

    Anyone else want to embarrass themselves?

  181. Nick Nurse just won Coach of the Year. I forgot that the other Coach of the Year isn’t the real Coach of the Year Award, so I wasted time complaining about Nurse not winning that one. Good for him. It was well-deserved.

  182. I’ve seen a bunch of mocks with either Hayes or Hailiburton available 8th, I’d be happy with either of those guys.

  183. Yeah, whatever your feelings are on Hayes, he’s a great value for #8. I doubt he’ll be there, though. I think he’ll go a tantalizing #7.

  184. pt, did you notice that earlybirdrights.com is dead? You suggested that site to me a couple of years ago and I used it all the time since. The moderator got a good job, it seems.

    yeah. there is a less user friendly place that let’s you try things out using the forward year cap estimate. it’s at roster-builder.com

    Are you aware of a site that you can use to calculate ws48 or BPM or VORP or even PER if you input boxscore-based stats?

    i’m not, no. but if you want to get a feel for how changes in individual box components affect bpm in various circumstances you can make a copy of the google sheet linked below (so it isn’t read only) and just mess around with the inputs a bunch.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TZZww6pRmHN2Kg64nkmog7UpiATvtv-41RglxKHCUts/edit

  185. ***pt, as usual you make a lot of sense.***

    Yeah, for guy that doesn’t use caps, much punctuation, and writes in seemingly inane triple-speak, everything he says somehow makes sense. (Sign me up for the ptmiloanon death cult, if there is one)

  186. ptmilo:
    pt, did you notice that earlybirdrights.com is dead? You suggested that site to me a couple of years ago and I used it all the time since. The moderator got a good job, it seems.

    yeah.there is a less user friendly place that let’s you try things out using the forward year cap estimate.it’s at roster-builder.com

    Are you aware of a site that you can use to calculate ws48 or BPM or VORP or even PER if you input boxscore-based stats?

    i’m not, no.but if you want to get a feel for how changes in individual box components affect bpm in various circumstances you can make a copy of the google sheet linked below (so it isn’t read only) and just mess around with the inputs a bunch.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TZZww6pRmHN2Kg64nkmog7UpiATvtv-41RglxKHCUts/edit

    Thanks as always, hopefully KB is Hotel California for you, at least for the next 25 years…

  187. Dude, what the fuck, can you be wrong just once?

    I heard ptmilo thinks bagels are wholly overrated and scotch is a spirit only enjoyed by miscreants and pretentious dickheads

  188. Anyone else want to embarrass themselves?

    i pick whoever djphan says we should pick :)

    i haven’t put much effort in to it, but, just at a glance it looks like vassell or nesmith – just because of their shooting…

    i don’t know – just from a cursory look at the prospects, i’d really like to see either avdija or lewis jr on our team…

  189. ptmilo:
    too lazy to find it but i wanted frank/dsj/monk over mitchell.trifecta.

    Ahh, gotcha that time. Even a working atomic clock is wrong twice a millenia, or something like that.

    (I wonder if we can make pt’s head explode by asking him something impossible to calculate, like NOMAD on the original Star Trek…)

  190. i remember when i first started hanging out at bars/clubs scotch and water was my drink – cause, i thought it sounded cool to order: dewars and water please…despite the fact it tasted like battery acid…i’m sure i picked the notion up from some movie or tv show…

    probably for the best cuz it limited how much i drank…thankfully after a year or so of being cool – i switched to rum & coke and tequila & seven-up – much much more party friendly drinks…

    back in the day you could go out and drink at 18…probably best it’s 21 now…back then drinking and driving actually meant drinking while driving…it’s amazing i survived…being young is dangerous…

  191. It’s funny, I was all in on Nick Nurse back then, too, but I also knew that there was no way in the world that they were ever going to be smart enough to hire him. Never. It never even slightly entered my mind as even a remote possibility.

  192. The celestial object known as 2018VP1 is projected to come close to Earth on November 2, according to the Center for Near Earth Objects Studies at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

    The chance of it hitting us is just 0.41%, data show.

    i had a comforting thought last week while steve bannon was being charged…there are quite a few people now who’ve committed themselves to bringing justice to the orange man and all those within his circle…they’ll be closely monitoring their actions during the remainder of their lives…if donald jr fails to pick up his pooch’s poop while out for a walk – no doubt they’ll be a charge for it at some point…

  193. So an inside scoop of sorts:

    One of my stepson’s older sibs has followed the Ball clan closely (she played bball in HS, lives closer to Chino Hills). Says we should trade up to draft LaMelo (even w/factoring in Lavar): claims he’ll be an All-Star. She started talking about his enormous social media following and how his popularity can be appealing to a team business-wise. I told her we don’t care about all that (lol) – can he shoot and defend? She says he’s got a personal coach that’s been working on his D and helping him understand running pro sets from the point. Says he’s a clutch shooter that needs a coach to let him run while building him up – confidence is not an issue w/him – he’s got the most confidence of the 3 Ball sons.

    She also says LiAngelo’s issue is that Lavar didn’t spend as much time/attn with him vs his brothers (part “middle child” syndrome). Lavar didn’t have the same confidence that he’d make the NBA vs his bros. He also was put in the post in HS at 6′ 3″ due to how strong he was (may have been better off playing football).
    Also, Chino Hills, Lavar and bball was all LiAngelo knew (the bubble mentality out here is real esp the suburb cities). So he ultimately got exposed in many ways at UCLA (including the shoplifting issue). But with all that, she thinks he can be a good 3nD role player at 6’5″ in shoes.

  194. too lazy to find it but i wanted frank/dsj/monk over mitchell. trifecta.

    I have no special insights into drafting, but I wasn’t a huge fan of Mitchell either.

    He’s not a PG and he’s small for a SG. That profile has produced a lot of busts because they can’t defend the 2 and they aren’t good enough play makers to play the 1. The often wind up being scorers off the bench. Maybe the devil was in the details with him defensively, but it wasn’t something I was aware of at the time.

  195. I think the 8th & the Clips pick would be enough to get a deal done for LaMelo. There isn’t enough consensus on a best player to demand much more and teams may want to cut their salary even that tiny bit.

    I still wouldn’t pull the trigger, but also wouldn’t be too upset.

  196. Z-manone of KP’s better all-around games

    He’s playing great for his first playoff series against a very good and very experienced defensive team.

    It’s obvious what he needs to do next.

    1. Get stronger so he can bang for contested rebounds instead of just getting these extra rebounds because he’s playing Center now and his teammates are deferring some uncontested ones to him once in awhile instead of the other way around like in NY. He gets few hard contested physical rebounds.

    2. Get stronger so he can finish at the basket when contested and get some extra “and 1” plays instead just going to the free throw line because he couldn’t handle the contact and still finish.

    3. Improve his stamina further, He’s doing so much work on offense setting picks on practically every possession and scoring, his defense is getting very lazy and he’s barely trying to protect the rim.

    I’m sure he’s going to have a couple of bad games. That’s the nature of shooting a lot of 3s and having a big role on offense taking tough shots, but everything that held him back in NY has reversed. He’s not the #1 option getting doubled anymore. He’s not forcing bad shots because he has to as the #1 option. He has good playing making around him. He’s learning how to play basketball.

  197. It really does suck watching KP look bigger and more confident for this Mavs team, even if he’s more rested than he would normally be at this point in a season. Between DSJ imploding and KD signing elsewhere, the only way I’ll feel good about that trade — even with the size of Porzingis’ contract — is if we can somehow turn those Mavs picks into something real. And even then… it was going to be so much fun rooting for a homegrown star for once.

  198. I think the 8th & the Clips pick would be enough to get a deal done for LaMelo. There isn’t enough consensus on a best player to demand much more and teams may want to cut their salary even that tiny bit.

    The #8 and #27 pick for the #2 pick? When has any trade similar to that ever happened?

  199. i still feel good about the trade… kp made some real progress this year although there is a ceiling on what he’s capable of if he’s shooting half his shots from 3…..

    i don’t think it’s likely that he will be a multi-allstar type of cornerstone guy…. he probably will be a pretty capable starter and probably make an allstar game or two…. but i do feel good about the picks coming our way and not having to pay him all that money….. it was for the best anyway…..

  200. rockets just choked that one away…might come back to haunt them…should have never gone to OT…

  201. On other news just get Chris Paul and just be average and get respected til we get a star and a good player. We can’t be this shit and just wait for nothing.

  202. ***The #8 and #27 pick for the #2 pick? When has any trade similar to that ever happened?***

    One thing we know is that to take Wiggins back for Russell, Golden State demanded the pick to be in 2021 NOT 2020 because they didn’t want extra picks in this shitty draft. So, yeah, not gonna happen.

  203. Hey, what’s up with Capela? Could a trade with Atlanta of #2 + 2021 Minny pick + salary filler work? He used to be the perfect big in a run and shoot offense, but then Houston bailed on him. Seems like healthy/happy Capela would be perfect to run with the Warriors next year, no?

  204. The Warriors could just take Toppin if they want a seasoned player. But I’m guessing they want a legit vet scorer to round out their lineup, although they really need a bench too.

    Something like Beal, Wagner, Ish for Wiggins and #2?

  205. It’s just shocking how little talent there is surrounding Lebron and AD on this Lakers team. Can two Hall of Famers drag a team of mediocre players on their shoulders to the NBA Finals?

  206. ***Can two Hall of Famers drag a team of mediocre players on their shoulders to the NBA Finals?***

    We’ll see, cause they have to slog through the Blazers, the Rockets/Thunder, the Clippers, and the Bucks/Raptors. If they win, they’ll have earned it.

  207. The one thing you can say about the Lakers is that they have size. The lineup of LBJ, AD, KCP, Green and Kuzma is mobile enough to guard any small lineup and what can a small lineup do against the LeBron-AD PnR? Assuming the Rockets win (they really should be up 3-0) they might be very tough for the Rockets to match up with, especially with Rondo coming back.

  208. That was the shocking thing, though, to see how poorly they did at trying to punish the Blazers down low with AD in Game 1. I think that’s the interesting thing about Covington and Tucker. They’re surprisingly resilient in the post.

  209. Big Ball > Small Ball

    The issue in recent years has been that the big men are not skilled enough offensive players inside to punish smaller lineups by enough to offset the defensive disadvantages on the perimeter and in the P&R .

    A highly skilled big man in the post can dominate the paint on high usage at a 60% TS% in the same way a smaller faster man can hit 40% or close of his 3s and wreak havok.

    The difference is that the bigger team can dominate the boards and get extra possessions.

    But when you have lower usage big men that defend the paint but can only score efficiently on put back dunks and the occasional pick and roll, the disadvantage on the perimeter and in P&R on defense often becomes greater than the advantage in rebounding. The league desperately needs a few highly skilled dominant big men to wreak havoc in the paint and dominate the boards to put all this small ball silliness to rest.

  210. Alan: Between DSJ imploding and KD signing elsewhere, the only way I’ll feel good about that trade — even with the size of Porzingis’ contract — is if we can somehow turn those Mavs picks into something real. And even then… it was going to be so much fun rooting for a homegrown star for once.

      

    The only way to feel good about that trade are:

    1. You know nothing about basketball
    2. You are a delusional rose colored glasses wearing Knicks fan
    3. Porzingis gets hurt.

    Personally, I thought was a horrible trade and wouldn’t feel good inside about hoping a great talent gets hurt so I can be right.

    Picks have intrinsic value based on long term expectation. You don’t judge them by what they turn into (good or bad) due to what is partially randomness. Those Mavs non lottery picks do not have a lot of value compared to a player that’s a high level #2 option (and possible #1 option elsewhere) on a very good team that also defends the paint and is getting better.

  211. Deeefense: The only way to feel good about that trade are:

    1. You know nothing about basketball
    2. You are a delusional rose colored glasses wearing Knicks fan
    3. Porzingis gets hurt.

    Personally, I thought was a horrible trade and wouldn’t feel good inside about hoping a great talent gets hurt so I can be right.

    Picks have intrinsic value based on long term expectation.You don’t judge them by what they turn into (good or bad) due to what is partially randomness. Those Mavs non lottery picks do not have a lot of value compared to a player that’sa high level #2 option (and possible #1 option elsewhere) on a very good team that also defends the paint and is getting better.

    4. You think that KP is very good but not worth the risk of locking him into max money for 5 years. (which is a reasonable position that I. happened to disagree with at the time and still).

  212. Haliburton has such a unique draft profile:

    He became the first player in NCAA history to average more than 15 points, five boards and six dimes while shooting over 50% from the floor and 40% from 3-point range (while attempting more than five treys per game).

  213. Deeefense: Picks have intrinsic value based on long term expectation. You don’t judge them by what they turn into (good or bad) due to what is partially randomness.

    I disagree. It is perfectly fair to judge picks based on what they eventually turn into. Just like you judge signing KP to a max deal based on final outcome after considering risk (including injury).

    At the time of the deal it was apparent that if Durant doesn’t tear his achilles, he winds up with the Knicks. Is that a consideration in judging the deal? (again, I was opposed to this logic, but it definitely was a factor…KD’s injury was randomness too, right?)

  214. ess-dog:
    Haliburton has such a unique draft profile:

    He became the first player in NCAA history to average more than 15 points, five boards and six dimes while shooting over 50% from the floor and 40% from 3-point range (while attempting more than five treys per game).

    Yeah, statistically he’s the guy. Just such a weird-looking game…

  215. Z-man: 4. You think that KP is very good but not worth the risk of locking him into max money for 5 years. (which is a reasonable position that I. happened to disagree with at the time and still).
      

    His injury risk profile was a serious consideration. It worried me and everyone else that has observed big men over the years, especially weak ones like him. That’s one reason Phil considered trading him.

    But the Knicks unquestionably and without a doubt gave up way more intrinsic value than we got back.

    Mills/Perry were just incompetent boobs in almost every way imaginable. I don’t even want to discuss them.

    But IMO the consensus here undervalued Porzingis quite significantly because the focus was his BPM, WS48, and lack of rebounding without looking at his skill set, stage of physical development, and role.

    He was being used poorly, had a lack of quality teammates and playmaking around him that was causing efficiency issues on offense, he was being asked to do way too much too soon against defenses that were game planning against him, and people were underestimating how easy it was going to be to correct his shot selection a bit and put some weight on him and gain some strength .

    The dude came in as a 4 year project because of his greenness and lack of strength and people were throwing him under the bus after 2 years due to “one number” stats that quite frankly are a huge pile of dung.

  216. I disagree. It is perfectly fair to judge picks based on what they eventually turn into.

    IMO, you judge “picks” by intrinsic value PERIOD.

    If you want to give a little extra credit to some organizations for finding good values (and vice versa), I’m willing to concede that (like say the Spurs), but I think even a lot of that is random and winds up being overrated. Some teams with great drafting records got partially lucky and vice versa.

    If you want to argue that KP’s injury profile lowered his intrinsic value a bit, I think I already conceded that in the prior post, but not to the point of the the trash we got back for him.

    I’ve also argued cap space is an asset, but it’s only as asset if you do something much smarter with it than the position you are already in quickly otherwise bad contracts eventually come off the books anyway. I’ve been arguing for years that great players don’t come to bad teams, but our management and fans keep falling for the same bullshit. Durant wasn’t coming to the Knicks.

    Time for me to go. Better days are ahead. Mills is gone, Perry may be on his way out, we have a good coach, and so far no terrible mistakes have been made.

  217. At the time of the deal it was apparent that if Durant doesn’t tear his achilles, he winds up with the Knicks. Is that a consideration in judging the deal? (again, I was opposed to this logic, but it definitely was a factor…KD’s injury was randomness too, right?)

    That was the reason I was fine with the trade at the time, as otherwise, I agree that I wouldn’t have done the deal otherwise. But Dolan’s Razor just had to slice that dude’s tendon. It has evolved from a theoretical concept to now becoming a literal razor that slices dude’s tendons.

  218. ess-dog:
    Haliburton has such a unique draft profile:

    He became the first player in NCAA history to average more than 15 points, five boards and six dimes while shooting over 50% from the floor and 40% from 3-point range (while attempting more than five treys per game).

    This reminds me I remember reading how Trae Young was unique in his stats too, and people were worried about that. That memory makes me think Halliburton is a good pick.

  219. Strat conveniently ignores that the Knicks did not want to offer Durant a max contract after the injury, which turned the tide. That said, I believe I was on the record of a) not being happy about the KP trade and b) not wanting to invest in even a healthy Durant and Kyrie at that stage of our rebuild. I just didn’t see the makings of a championship team even with that nucleus, and Kyrie is a total asshole who was run out of Boston by Celtics fans. I would have been happy to lock up KP for 5 years, even with the knee injury.

    In retrospect, there’s no use crying over spilled milk. We’ve been somewhat unlucky since that deal but by and large are in a decent position to make big strides in the next 3 years.

    -We’ve purged the organization of Steve Mills.
    -We brought on a FO that gives cause for cautious optimism about a renewed approach.
    -Rose has done due diligence and built a braintrust with expertise in very specific areas (scouting, cap management, analytics.)
    -Our cap/draft asset position is the best it’s been in decades on it’s face, and even more so when considering the effects of the pandemic and lost revenue from China backlash.
    -Rose signed one of the better coaches in the NBA after a reasonably lengthy process and is surrounding him with excellent player development personnel (i.e. subtly limiting his power over personnel decisions).

    So KP or no KP, there is ample reason for hope at this point in time. The hope rests mainly on prudent cap and asset management. I am not married to a particular method of team-building. Rose isn’t Ujiri, but if he mimics his methods, which it at least appears he is trying to do, then I can live with seeing KP tearing it up in Dallas for the next decade.

  220. By December, we’ll have a much clearer idea of what the future holds. Signs that we are due for another long decade:
    -we trade assets for Chris Paul or another aging superstar
    -we trade up for LaMelo at the cost of several draft assets
    -we draft Cole Anthony
    -we use cap space to bid against ourself to sign middling UFA’s or RFA’s
    -we play an antiquated style of basketball in the 3pt era

  221. I should also add:
    -we trade too many assets for a faux young star like Zach LaVine

    (I wonder if CHI jumping to #4 will make them think differently about keeping LaVine…his contract is very reasonable..)

  222. Deeefense: IMO, you judge “picks” by intrinsic value PERIOD.

    …in order to do that…don’t you need a formula or equation to derive intrinsic value? I think somebody did that for NFL draft picks but I have not seen anything for NBA…..

    putting the semantics aside…using hindsight (i.e., standing here today)…it doesn’t look like the knicks got equal or better value than they gave up….assuming those picks don’t produce a solid player or other assets..

    ….at the time, given the schmucks who were running the show…it was somewhat palatable…

  223. Halliburton was arguably the best college player projected to go in the lottery, and was definitely the best guard. He’d be a fine pick if he’s there 8th.

  224. Whoever they pick in the 1st round, I hope it’s two skilled guards because two-pg and three-guard sets are just the norm now.

    A starting lineup with Kira or Riller/Haliburton/RJ in it would be a nice step towards a modern lineup (then hopefully add Kuminga next year at pf!)

  225. I’d be fine with Halliburton. I’d take Hayes over him, but if Halliburton is there, I’d be thrilled.

  226. I like Haliburton but the reason I have both Hayes and Okongwu above him is his usage. Usage at lower levels matters and his freshman year was terrible and last year his usage was a bit low especially for being the best player on a mediocre team. All studies have shown that high usage is very important for prospects. Because lack of usage shows either an inability to create shots against lesser athletes or a lack of aggressiveness/confidence.

  227. Jayson Tatum had a monster series vs. Sixers. Dude is looking more and more like a legit max superstar and he’s one day older than Obi Toppin.

  228. Po-TAY-to, Po-TAH-to. Ben, while I don’t disagree with your usage point, one of the reasons I like Haliburton is the massive improvement from his freshman year. One of the games we play with ourselves (and make fun of each other about) is “If player X gets better at Y, he’s going to be really good.” It’s not proof, but there’s an actual data point on Haliburton making significant improvement — to the point that he went from, as you put it, terrible as a freshman, to as Dred put it, arguably the best college player in the lottery. From one year to the next. Doesn’t mean he has an unlimited ceiling, but it does intimate he can get a lot better at things, and fairly quickly. As compared to, say, Knox. Or DSJ.

  229. Raven:
    Po-TAY-to, Po-TAH-to. Ben, while I don’t disagree with your usage point, one of the reasons I like Haliburton is the massive improvement from his freshman year. One of the games we play with ourselves (and make fun of each other about) is “If player X gets better at Y, he’s going to be really good.” It’s not proof, but there’s an actual data point on Haliburton making significant improvement — to the point that he went from, as you put it, terrible as a freshman, to as Dred put it, arguably the best college player in the lottery. From one year to the next. Doesn’t mean he has an unlimited ceiling, but it does intimate he can get a lot better at things, and fairly quickly. As compared to, say, Knox. Or DSJ.

    Or Donovan Mitchell

  230. There are some legit red flags with Halliburton (ftr, he doesn’t shoot/score that much), but his broad base of skills and that he was able to massively increase his usage without significantly hurting his efficiency make me optimistic he’ll be able to develop further in the NBA.

  231. I’ve seen a few grown men play the game like this. Their names are LeBron, Michael, etc. But a child playing like this??? Come on.

  232. The scariest part about this kid is that you know his decision making is going to improve over time. That alone is going to make him even better. If he improves his defense at all, wow.

    This series is shocking me.

    On paper it’s a horrible matchup for the Mavs, but with Beverley out, Paul George in a coma, and the young Mavs handling the playoff pressure so well, it’s a series. The Mavs are going to get a lot out of this for next season regardless of the outcome here. They are far ahead of schedule.

    The Clippers better hope George wakes up and they find their defensive intensity for a full 48 minutes because it’s going to take a much better effort than this to get past the Lakers and whoever comes out of the east even though I still expect them to lock in and take this series.

  233. If the Knicks had had the #1 pick in the 2018 draft, I’m really curious to know whom they would have selected with it.

  234. I like Trae Young and all, but how must it feel as a Hawks fan (and yes, there are at least a dozen of them) to watch a kid that is a generational talent dominate the NBA at age 21, and know he could have been yours?

  235. That is a game that will be talked about for decades. That trade by Cuban more than makes up for letting go of Nash.

    Not for nothing, but Z-man fave of yore Trey Burke had a pretty good game too!

  236. I remember a conversation I had with one of the greatest pool players of all time.

    We were watching some young cocky teenager play $1000 a set 9 ball against a high level pro. Most kids would be fighting their nerves playing for that much money, let alone against a seasoned pro with so many peers watching. But this kid was playing as loose as if it was just practice. The pro said, “Everyone has a different nervous system. Some people learn to deal with their nerves as they get experience. Some people never do. Some people are so cocky or stupid they don’t even know they should be be nervous”.

    I’m not sure if Donic is cocky or stupid, but he sure has no nervous system.

  237. So, Cuban with 2 casual trades and a great coach built a future contender.
    It Looks pretty easy!

  238. All the ex Knicks are performing well. Even Morris is having a very good series in his role. Today he didn’t do much, but he hit a very big 3. We are going to be hard pressed to find a player as good as him with the Clippers late lottery pick and we’ll probably wind up putting someone his age that’s not any good into his cap space. lol I hope we keep Harkless instead of doing something foolish. I like Harkless as a role player.

  239. Find a great coach.
    Find 2 stupid teams to trade.
    Be a contender.

    Maybe we should trade up

  240. If George hit shots these last two games would be comfortable wins over a game but overmatched Mavs

    PG has basically been hot garbage this series, and a lot of his missed shots have been wide open.

    And don’t discount Beverly not playing, he’s a major disrupter on defense.

  241. I like Trae Young and all, but how must it feel as a Hawks fan (and yes, there are at least a dozen of them) to watch a kid that is a generational talent dominate the NBA at age 21, and know he could have been yours?

    And I forgot that the Suns and Kings could have had him too.

  242. Can’t be said enough. Luka Doncic was the MVP of Europe at 18 and didn’t go #1.

    I think it’s pretty clear the Knicks would have passed on him. And we all would have quit.

  243. BPA is the only way to go if you want to sleep well at night.
    Nobody’s complained about missing Giannis or Kawhi on their drafts since they were “under the radar” back then.
    But missing Luka you mfkrs….
    Even me who don’t know shit about the drafted players each year i knew that Luka was THE GUY on that draft!
    When he went 3rd i said to myself “ok, you don’t know how good are the other two ahead of him”
    When i saw the trade with Atlanta tho i was like “WTF man!!! Our Dallas picks go to the trashbin”

  244. Suns, Kings and Atlanta POBOs and GMs on this draft should be sent to Siberia for 5 years to study the snow leopard aka ghost cat . That’s how rare was the talent they missed that night…

  245. Also I don’t know what the Clippers were doing switching on that last possession. You have to let Kawhi guard Luka.

  246. 2 days ago
    AKarnisovas on trade offers:
    “The way I approach the draft is that there are a ton of opportunities. You’re going to take 100 calls, possibly nothing happens and you stay at your picks. It’s just an exciting time to make your organization better that night.”

  247. Trae also has a chance to be a generational talent. Really the only difference between he and Luka on offense this year was turnovers- Trae actually had the better TS%. I’d still take Doncic for sure but it’s tough to knock the Hawks given how good Young was this year.

  248. DRed:
    Also I don’t know what the Clippers were doing switching on that last possession.You have to let Kawhi guard Luka.

    forget switching…they should have forced Luka to give the ball up with a double team on the inbounds (or denied him the ball since there were only 4 seconds left)…I would have taken a chance with anybody other than him shooting…doc rivers and paul george both look comatose…

  249. It’s tough to knock the hawks as it’s tough to knock the rockets in ’84 for picking “the dream” instead of the GOAT.
    History tho says that Hakeem had to wait for MJ to rest for a couple of years before bringing Houston 2 titles.

    Interesting stuff From Wiki:
    “In his autobiography, Living the Dream, Olajuwon mentions an intriguing draft trade offered to the Rockets that would have sent Clyde Drexler and the number two pick in the 1984 NBA draft from Portland in exchange for Ralph Sampson. Had the Rockets made the deal, Olajuwon states the Rockets could have selected Michael Jordan with the number two pick to play alongside Olajuwon and Drexler, who had established chemistry playing together during their Phi Slama Jama days in college. Sportswriter Sam Smith speculates that such a trade “would have changed league history and maybe the entire Michael Jordan legend”

    The Dynasties are on the details…

  250. ***It’s tough to knock the hawks as it’s tough to knock the rockets in ’84 for picking “the dream” instead of the GOAT.***

    Imagine if the Sixers had the #3 pick in ‘84 and traded down to draft Barkley, turning Jordan over to the Bulls. That’s more like what the Hawks did than the Rockets selecting Olajuwon over Jordan. Barkley, too, was great, but the obvious, billion dollar choice was clear both years. Don’t trade down when the bird has already fallen into your hand!

  251. Sometimes you judge by the results.

    Warriors choosing to keep the ankleinjury prone Curry over Monta Ellis turned them into a Dynasty.
    They showed that they definitely KNOW their shit WELL.

    Presti choosing to keep 4M$ instead of giving Harden the money and retain KD, Westbrook,Harden made him losing the chance for greatness.
    It was like he was given a royal flush and managed to fuck it up by changing three cards….

  252. As far as I know, drafting Bagley over Doncic was the WORST DRAFT BLUNDER EVER. Although I didn’t think he would be already at MVP level in his sophomore year, I knew as a truth that he would be a perennial All-Star, and I rarely have this kind of take about draftees (since I don’t watch much college basketball).

    The ’84 Blazers (Bowie) already had Drexler as SG, and they became a powerhouse through the early 90s. The ’03 Pistons (Milicic) would win the championship that very season. Even in 2018, Phoenix got a very good prospect as center (Ayton) and Atlanta picked an offensive monster (Young). The Suns and the Hawks committed mistakes, IMO, but not lethal ones.

    Sacramento, on the other hand, after a decade-plus of utter futility, lucked into a generational talent, a miracle to a franchise that’s still on California only because of David Stern’s intentions of forever keeping Seattle as the proverbial threat to any city that does not help their franchises. No franchise ever needed a superstar more, while actually having the chance to get one as easily, as the Kings in 2018. And they completely outsmarted themselves. It’s not just a blunder. It’s an absolutely franchise-crippling mistake. Lord knows how many years of success they wasted when they made that selection.

    To make matters worse, their GM was FROM IUGOSLAVIA! How can a Serbian guy, with a lot of contacts, fail so miserably in evaluating the talent of a kid from Slovenia? So, the Kings were not exactly showing prejudice towards a “soft” European player (it could be one of the reasons); they were just plainly stupid!

    To be honest, I don’t think Bagley will ever reach his full potential in Sacramento, if only because of the expectations. Almost every night, everybody at the arena will look at him as “not-Luka”. Maybe even Bagley himself, at this point.

  253. Jojo and Simmons under serious coaching /team construction can contend for the title.
    Unfortunately for them Sixers SUCK.

  254. Doncic reminds of Larry Bird…better ball handler but not as tall, neither can leap but can always get their shot off…

  255. I’m not sure Embiid and Simmons can work in today’s NBA. It’s going to be tough when you have two high usage non shooters, even two as talented as Embiid and Simmons. Embiid needs Kawhi and Simmons needs regular season Paul George.

    Ben Simmons, Shake Milton, Josh Richardson, Paul George, and Al Horford would be a ton of fun on both ends under the right coach though.

  256. I feel that Embiid needs food discipline and better conditioning while Simmons needs 2hrs shooting a day.
    They’re “Big Dogs” looking for a knowledgeable “Big Dog owner” to make them fulfill their potential.

  257. As good as Simmons is, you have to ask whether he can ever add a jump shot if he doesn’t have one by now.

    Colangelo and Brand should be banned from the league for the way they squandered a once-in-a-generation rebuilding effort, which cannot be duplicated today with flattened lottery odds. But this ain’t Sixerblogger, so fuck ‘em.

  258. I guess the price for Donovan Mitchell keeps going up and up.

    RJ and the Dallas picks ain’t getting it done

  259. The Knicks do not have a package you can trade for a superstar unless you’re trying to give up unprotected first round picks. And unless you can guarantee that Luka Doncic won’t tear his ACL carrying the 2018 Knicks as far as he has, there’s no way I’m trading the 2021 Mavs pick.

  260. If Simmons wants to succeed in this game he needs to develop a jump shoot. Or he needs to be always in the paint as a slasher, finishing fastbreaks or as a post player(PF).
    Unfortunately for him the jump shoot has become a very basic skill of the game.
    Wilt times are over…
    Otherwise he’d become one more talented semideveloped big dog…

  261. I definitely feel like Brett Brown has lost his job. If I were Philly, I’d move Simmons. As great as he is, you would get more for him that you would Embiid and still be able to field a quality squad around the big fella. I really don’t like the fact that when Simmons and Embiid are on the court together, Embiid has to drift towards the perimeter when he should be feasting inside. Now, if Miami wants to give up Bam, then you trade Embiid. But otherwise- I think we’ve seen the last of Brown and maybe Dimmons in Philly

  262. The Sixers should clean out the front office and fire Brown and see what a new coach can do before deciding to trade embiid or simmons

  263. Oh Brand should definitely be fired. He’s done an awful, awful job there. I wonder if there’s a way that us taking Horford off there hands would be worth it? I guess they’d have to take Randle and give us their 2020 1st for starters. That’s a huge contract though. I still don’t think it’s worth it.

  264. I also thought about trading with the Sixers because, like you, I expect them to make changes. But they have lots of what we already have, big men, and don’t have what we need, which is shooters. I couldn’t find anything we would want to do.

  265. One look is worth a thousand words:

    2019-2020 Sixers Salaries
    Tobias Harris $31,034,483
    Al Horford $28,000,000
    Joel Embiid $27,504,630
    Josh Richardson $10,100,000
    Ben Simmons $8,113,930

  266. Yeah, it maybe doesn’t look as bad because the overall team is much better, But the Horford/Harris signings are pretty close to Noah-level stupidity.

  267. If we take a salary off of Philly’s books, it better be Harris LOL. I want no parts of Horford. Well..maybe for Randle and 2 firsts, but why would Philly trade for Randle? Or maybe they would be smart enough to use him as a 6th man, I dunno. Horford’s definitely a better fit with Mitch though..but man! 34 mil for the next few? Yeesh!

  268. I really think Horford, Harris, Simmons, Paul George, and Josh Richardson would be a very competitive unit. The Sixers did a terrible job building out that roster but I think they are better set up for a pivot around Ben Simmons than they are for one around Embiid.

    The ballsy move would be Embiid for Jaylen Brown and the Memphis pick, but I don’t trust anything that leaves Boston to be a valuable asset. It’s not like Jaylen Brown was some stud prospect deserving of the #3 pick.

  269. Embiid+Simmons need, like, only shooters around them. Like, all shooters. I think a team made up of Simmons, Embiid, and guys like Redick and even Hardaway Jr would make a HUGE difference.

  270. That Dallas Clippers game yesterday was thrilling. Probably the best game so far in the bubble. Luka Doncic. Just wow.

    Also, GD how depressing as a Knicks fan. I mean, that Dallas team is basically what we would be right now if we’d actually lucked out for once in the draft, moved up and were able to draft Doncic.

    There was a small debate yesterday about if the Knicks would have picked him or not because of LOL dumb Knicks. But I have no doubt in my mind we would have picked him bc of the KP-Euro connection.

    Plus, you watch Trey Burke light it up and it just makes you realize. So many of these players are fine if given a specific role on a team with a real superstar like Doncic. As a microwave scoring PG off the bench, Burke is great. Of course, under Fizdale with no KP and being asked to start he looks outmatched. So of course we throw him in the KP trade for no reason. My buddy, who is a Bulls fan, texted me about Hardaway…saying he’s a great third option and plays defense too. I had to stop myself from texting him back about him being wrong…because, well, as a starter and third option on a team with Luka…yeah, Hardaway is pretty damn good.

    We should have gotten more back for KP. Even with clearing cap space. Haradaway isn’t a bad player. We gave them KP and Hardaway and got DSJ and 2 late first round picks. We should have gotten at least one more first rounder from them or had them throw in several second rounders too.

    It just goes to show. Until we draft a real star, we will only marginally improve around the edges. I don’t think this means we should trade away extra picks to move up to get LaMelo, but we gotta get a star here. Preferably one we draft. Gotta hope one of these extra picks yields a player above their draft position. They don’t have to be Luka. But if we could land another Mitch like steal late in the first round somewhere, that would do so much to turn things around for us.

  271. If Philadelphia wants to trade someone, they need to find a trade partner that is short on quality big men and appreciates them. In the East, Miami and Washington come to mind. In the West, if Golden State wants to win now maybe they would like someone else next to Horford, but I have my doubts they’d want anyone one of the Philadelphia players.

  272. IMO, the 76’er’s shouldn’t panic and trade Simmons or Embiid. They are both still very young. They took a step back this year but IMO teams shouldn’t panic because one year they exit early in the playoffs.

    Tinker around the edges to make improvements where they can. Get some more shooters. But don’t do anything dumb like trade one of your two main pieces who are still young. Their window isn’t close to closing.

  273. All the Sixers had to do was keep hometown boy Mikal. And also keep Saric.

    How much better would they be with those two as starters? Oh and, sheesh, didn’t they also have Shamet too?

    What a colossal roster fail.

  274. Choosing to go with Horford/Richardson instead of Buttler/Redick seems D-orientated and smart(?) but when you have a Ready to compete team you don’t fuck it. You just trim it a bit.

  275. It gets lost in the shuffle a bit that the Sixers came closer than anyone to beating Toronto last year. Obviously Jimmy Butler was a big factor in that but I think it emphasizes that with the right guard play around those two guys you can have a championship level team. The big mistake with this roster was living in the ongoing fantasy that Ben Simmons is a PG. He may be a great ball handler and passer but he’s 6’10” and doesn’t take jump shots outside the paint. That’s a PF with positive ball handling and passing traits, not a PG. They finally seemed to be figuring that out right before he got hurt. Using their other big salary slots around Simmons/Embid on a SF/PF and a PF/C is a disaster; if those two slots were star level guards (say they keep Butler instead of Harris and sign Kemba instead of Horford) they’re easily an inner circle title contender.

    I think there’s a bit of a fetish in current NBA media around tearing it down and rebuilding, but it’s pretty much impossible to trade someone like Simmons or Embid for anything like equal value talent-wise. You can improve the fit but it’s going to be hard to make up whatever you lose in raw talent. Obviously it’s hard to make changes to the Horford/Harris part of the roster because both those guys looks like albatrosses right now but I think you have to try that first.

  276. Butler didn’t like the front office or the coach in Philadelphia. And he seems to love both in Miami. So the strat-tistical analysis we get here isn’t completely made up. Good organizations with good reputations getting the good players is a real thing.

  277. “Choosing” to leave a max contract on a young contender who’s Superstar is your “brother” don’t seem like a choice to me.

    “Butler gave a vague reason to Yahoo! Sports’ Chris Haynes on what went down in Philadelphia and why he decided to leave, stating:

    Stuff just don’t work out. Nobody knows what really went on in Philly and we’re going to leave it that way. But it was a great opportunity for me (to move to Miami).

    Butler was pressed on what happened, but refused to shed more light on the situation:

    Just go with your gut. You’re not dumb. All of that will come out whenever it’s time. Right now is not the time. I’m locked in with this. I’m happy, man. I’m smiling and my guys want me to be here, my organization wants me to be here, I want to be here and we’re going to ride this thing until the wheels fall off. I’m not saying Philly wasn’t great, man. We had some really good players. I talk to Joel [Embiid] damn near every (expletive) day. It’s a brotherhood, man. I love that guy. I’m going to always have his back and I know he’ll always have mine.

    While it does seem that something went down behind the scenes with Butler and the Sixers, he won’t reveal exactly what happened. Instead, he is currently focusing on his situation with the Heat. Nobody truly knows what went down except for Butler and the Sixers. One can assume that both sides would remain tight-lipped on it for now.”

  278. Let’s face it.
    Sixers are Lucky but Stupid.
    Many of their moves say it clearly.
    Knicks are Not Lucky and Stupid.
    That’s our main difference.

  279. The bizarre Fultz bust didn’t help the Sixers any, either. Perhaps they just “went for it” a bit hastily.

    I wonder how KP would have fared there had they drafted him?

  280. IMO, the 76’er’s shouldn’t panic and trade Simmons or Embiid. They are both still very young. They took a step back this year but IMO teams shouldn’t panic because one year they exit early in the playoffs.

    Tinker around the edges to make improvements where they can. Get some more shooters. But don’t do anything dumb like trade one of your two main pieces who are still young. Their window isn’t close to closing.

    The problem is that Brand built such a bizarre team around them and saddled them with expensive guys who you can’t really trade, so where can they go to find shooting if they’ve clogged the team with expensive, unmovable veterans?

  281. I would have still taken a healthy KD and KI on the Knicks, but holy shit, they are coming off like the two biggest douchebags in sports lately. First, KD’s constant lies about his plans last year (he can’t even keep all of his lies straight. Every interview has a new version of what his plans were), then they backstabbed Atkinson while not even playing under him and now, after Jacque Vaughn coaches his ass off, they’re backstabbing him, too, and the dude was highly unlikely to get the gig anyways, so what in the world is the point of them putting it out there that they’d like to see Popovich come here!? Especially since Pop is obviously not leaving San Antonio at age 71 to coach two prima donna assholes, both of whom are coming off major injuries.

  282. Man, remember back in November 2017 when the Knicks started 10-7? I cherish that month. Good thing we didn’t tank that whole year. Would have been miserable.

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see Embiid go to Golden State.

  283. The Sixers’ moves last summer weren’t horrible at the time. Harris was coming off a big year and was likely to get the max from somebody. If they just let him walk, they couldn’t have replaced him because they’re over the cap anyway.

    Horford was also a top free agent. Maybe he’s not the best fit with Embiid, but he shot much better from 3 last year, so it wasn’t crazy to put them together. It’s not like trading for ZBo when you already have Eddy Curry and David Lee.

    Richardson was also a high impact player in Miami who was frequently invisible this year.

  284. The Honorable Cock Jowles:

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see Embiid go to Golden State.

    I was thinking the same thing, but they’d need a 3rd team with a win-now player who could take back Andrew Wiggins’ deal some of the 1st round picks. I don’t think James Wiseman and Andrew Wiggins is anywhere near enough next year for Philly to move Embiid.

  285. Brian, sure, the salaries they have esp for Harris and Horford are bad but Embiid and Simmons are still young and Simmons was hurt and didn’t even play in this series (right? I only watched one game from that series).

    Run it back next year with the same group. Find shooting where you can (vet min, d-league). See if Simmons and Embiid can improve their game (Simmons with outside shooting). I just wouldn’t pull a panic trade right now because of one year losing in the first round.

    Dallas didn’t trade Dirk when they lost to GSW in the first round. I think the impulse to blow it up is not a smart one but its one that a lot of teams do in panic when they lose early one year. If Embiid and Simmons were 4 years older, then its a different story. But they could ride out the contracts of Harris and Horford and still have those 2 main pieces in their prime. This is where you hope a better coach and some player development can help your young star improve their game. Showing confidence in your core can pay off down the road.

  286. >>> It just goes to show. Until we draft a real star, we will only marginally improve around the edges. I don’t think this means we should trade away extra picks to move up to get LaMelo, but we gotta get a star here. <<<

    I think you've got it backwards, my friend. I mean, sure, if a star drops into your lap, you take him. But we keep failing to improve around the edges because we're obsessed with drafting a star!

    – We could have had Bridges in 2018 but we loved Knox's "star potential" (even though only the knicks saw it).

    – We could have had Tyler Herro and Brandon Clarke in 2019, but RJ Barrett had "star potential."

    Imagine having a core of Bridges, Herro, Clarke, and Robinson right now. With the 8th, 27th, and 38th pick in the upcoming draft. Plus two 1sts and two good 2nds in 2021. That's where you want to be.

  287. Hubert, I don’t disagree with you in the sense that I would not have drafted Knox because he had “star potential.” If you don’t see a sure fire star, then draft a good floor player and keep it moving.

    I’m glad we picked RJ. I know the stats show a tough road for him, but I believe in him.

  288. RJ Barrett was not the wrong pick. We really need to stop pushing that narrative around here just because he wasn’t productive as a 19 year old who was surrounded by the floor-spacing braintrust of Julius Randle, Bobby Portis, and Elfrid Payton.

  289. I’m pro RJ, as well, swift. But I really wish we had made that Atlanta trade. I pray we don’t double down and flip multiple picks to move up in this draft. That’s a classic Knicks blunder.

  290. I think it’s disingenuous to say Harris was coming off a big year when they traded for him, unless you use PPG to evaluate player performance. Not a bad player by any measure, but definitely not a guy you pay $35M a year to.

  291. You can get solid role players in a trade, free agency, or in the draft. That’s not the hard part. The hard part is getting the 2-3 stars you need to contend. So if have a chance to get a legit #1 or #2 scoring option, imo you have to go for it even if you have to pay a bit of a premium.

    imo we didn’t draft Knox over Bridges looking for a star.

    I don’t know anyone (probably including his own father and Capilari) that thought Knox was going to become a legit #1 or #2 star option. They drafted Knox over Bridges because Mills/Perry/Fizdale value scoring, shot creation, and athleticism over solid defense, basketball IQ, efficiency, playing well within a team etc.. Throw in the age difference that gave Knox more potential for upside and they liked him better.

    My argument has always been that they overvalued scoring, shot creation, and athleticism relative to those other qualities and Knox was one of several examples of that.

    A guy like Bridges can become a significant piece in the starting lineup of a contender that already has its #1 and #2 option even if his own offense doesn’t expand much (so could a guy like Frank if he just adds a consistent 3 pointer).

    A guy like Knox will typically wind up becoming a scorer off the bench unless his offensive development explodes and he becomes an efficient #1 or #2 scorer, which is not likely.

  292. Embiid has several problems.

    I think Shaq. Kenny, and Charles nailed everything that’s wrong with the Sixers in their discussion last night.

    Embiid is a monster in the post, but to operate in the post you need space to avoid double teams or to be able to pass out of those double teams to guys that can knock down 3s to make them pay for doubling. The Sixers have no space and not enough consistent shooting. They have Embiid on the perimeter too often trying to create space for others (insanity) and Embiid is rarely if ever in good shape. I don’t know if that’s because of his physical problems (they limit his practices etc…) or whether he’s lazy or both. But in almost every game in the series he started off full of energy and often scoring really well and then ran out of gas for an extended period. He’s not in NBA shape for 36-40 minutes of rough NBA playoff basketball.

    The team is also horribly constructed. IMO, Simmons, Horford, and Embiid together is idiotic. It’s a coaches job to maximize the teams’s output by using players correctly and finding the right combinations, but it’s on management to at least try to give him a balanced team of players that fit together to work with.

  293. Embiid lumbers. Not a good quality in today’s SSoL environment. Building around a slow big is not a formula for success. Plus he has delusions of grandeur. I don’t care how good he is in the post, he’s a dinosaur as a big-3 player.

  294. RJ was not a bad pick. He was suboptimal because we could have grabbed Clarke or traded down and still grabbed Clarke. But suboptimal =/= bad. The valuation shouldn’t be a binary good or bad, but a more flexible scale.

    Almost every franchise would have drafted RJ there and he was probably the 4th or 5th best choice in the draft. This wasn’t drafting Knox, a player who was drafted 9th but shouldn’t have been drafted in the first round if at all. Even as someone very down on RJ, I admit that he clearly displayed a number of tools in college that few players possess.

  295. Almost every franchise would have drafted RJ there and he was probably the 4th or 5th best choice in the draft.

    I don’t know if this is true, but it’s likely that each franchise that lost enough games to have a top-5 pick would have picked him wherever he was available after #2. You know: the badly-managed front offices.

  296. i don’t find myself rooting for the bucks like i did last year – go magic…

    hope the thunder can get another one today, and well – fuck the lakers…

    heard from my trump buddy over the weekend (closest thing i have to a brother)…so sad to see him parrot trump/fox news garbage…even mentioned how he’s not watching sports now – although, seeing as he’s a mets fan – who can blame him for that, but, the message behind his words are still there…i try to keep it light…

    i at least understand the whole go elephant political philosophies (pro-life, pro-gun, de-regulate business, health-care choices, whatever) – it just goes beyond my reasoning how anyone could back that man…please daddy donnie, tell me another bedtime conspiracy story

  297. Z-man:
    Embiid lumbers. Not a good quality in today’s SSoL environment. Building around a slow big is not a formula for success. Plus he has delusions of grandeur. I don’t care how good he is in the post, he’s a dinosaur as a big-3 player.

    I’ll say again that they were a hair’s breadth away from beating the champs last year with Embiid as part of their big-3 and in that incredibly tight loss to Toronto Philly was +89 over the course of the 7 games with Embiid on the floor and -108 with him off the floor. He’s not a perfect player but you can win big with him; but any C is going to be constrained to some extent by his guard play and the guard play on this Sixers team is just lousy.

  298. The Sixers would do well to draft a guy like Riller who can contribute right away instead of another project.

    As for the Knicks, the prognosis isn’t good. You can point to spacing all you want, but that merely kept RJ from being an average amount of terrible rather than the near record-breaking level of bad we saw.

    Obviously I’m rooting for him, but I don’t have a lot of faith he’ll ever be more than a mediocre player, which hey, is probably a better ceiling than the ones Frank or Knox have.

  299. Our offense and spacing were pretty bad last year but I agree that is not really why RJ struggled. I think he got in his head over the free throws which hurt his ft% for the first half of the season , played too many minutes early and hit the rookie wall earlier than most and then had normal rookie struggles. I think he would have finished the season pretty strong had it not been canceled.

    I am not too worried about his long term prognosis. He was very good in spurts and had a pretty special rookie season. Those two things combined make me think he will he just fine. I would be shocked if doesn’t have a much better season next year.

  300. RJ Barrett was not just a victim of poor spacing. He was a victim of being drafted to the Knicks, where we had terrible coaching, little to no player development, poor roster construction, and expectations of being a franchise savior. Nobody, from Scott Perry to Mike Miller to Julius Randle did anything to help RJ Barrett improve as a basketball player. We looked at RJ Barrett and said “yeah that guys a shooting guard” the same way we looked at Kevin Knox and saw a superstar small forward and a two way point guard in Frank Ntilikina.

  301. Brett Brown finally gets the axe. Would we want him as an assistant on our bench? He’s probably gonna end up with the Warriors.

  302. If the Sixers seriously hire Ty Lue, that will be hilariously bad. I’d be hard pressed to think of a worse fit than Lue there (Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd excluded, of course).

  303. i’m guessing there’s a good chance lue ends up with the nets…not sure exactly though he and kyrie got along in cleveland…

    scratch that – did a quick google, looks like those two aren’t exactly buds…

    is gonna be so much fun next year to root against the nets…

    i hope they get fizdale, with the lead assistant being rambis…

  304. It’s hilariously how much better the Rockets have played than the Thunder for most of this series and yet they’re about to be tied in this series. 3 for 23 from three down the stretch!!

  305. they still shot nearly 40% for the game…chris paul rebukes d’antoni…although he did take (and miss) 5 3’s himself…

    i don’t know what the magic 3 point percentage number is for the rockets to win, but, 40% on 55+ attempts, and, they didn’t lose by much…

    i hate the heat…bam with the 14th pick, herro with the 13th…robinson undrafted…that’s just not fair…

  306. I can remember asking myself earlier this season “who the hell is Lugentz Dort?”

    My next question is who the hell is Darius Bazley?

  307. what’s wrong with Ty Lue?

    Whoever takes over the Sixers is going to have to do some real system work. That’s not really what Lue’s about. He’s more of a player’s coach. He could get an assistant coach who could do the system work, but then why not just hire a system coach? Imagine D’Antoni with the Sixers!

  308. Brian Cronin:
    If the Sixers seriously hire Ty Lue, that will be hilariously bad. I’d be hard pressed to think of a worse fit than Lue there (Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd excluded, of course).

    This sort of reminds me of politics. Once you’ve actually been Vice President you are automatically a serious candidate for President, even if you’re Sarah Palin. Ty Lue won a ring as coach, do he’s a serious candidate for new coaching no matter how little of winning that ring was his going.

  309. ‘Imagine D’Antoni with the Sixers!’

    If I’d been drinking milk it would have come out my nose.

    I suspect that if he suddenly and magically found himself the coach and didn’t immediately kill himself, first thing he’d do is trade Embiid AND Simmons for Duncan Robinson.

  310. This is a bad year to be looking for a coach unless your organization has the balls to grab a hot shot young assistant. I still don’t understand why Gregg Marshall at Wichita State hasn’t gotten an NBA look as yet.

  311. Very easy pass on Isaac Okoro. As a player who will spend most of his time on offense off the ball, not being able to shoot is a non starter. Let somebody else spend 2 years developing him into a shooter.

    The pick should just be Aaron Nesmith, and then trade back up into the early 20s for Poku or Terry.

  312. The same article also lists Nesmith and Kira Lewis as players that some in the front office like, albeit ones they’d prefer to take after trading down a bit. (Or up from the Clippers pick.)

  313. I..
    Yo…
    If..
    If Pop leaves the Spurs for Brooklyn, I’m just gonna start watching the International Pinochle Tournament from now on. Sheesh!
    I can totally see Brett Brown going to San Antonio if that happens though

  314. I think Miller would be a good fit in Philly, but it will never happen. They are more likely to go after Lue.

  315. It sure seems to me like it’s always a specific kind of coach who gets nailed with the “yes he won a lot but he didn’t actually have anything to do with it” rap. And it’s not the guys who look like Brad Stevens if you know what I mean.

    I thought Lue did a very consistently good job of making minor Xs and Os tweaks that took very talented but kind of mish-mashy Cavs teams and got them playing winning basketball every season despite pretty much constant injuries and roster tweaking. I agree that he’s not a system builder but I strongly disagree that that’s what the Sixers need. No coach is going to take a roster whose 4 best players are two Cs, a PF, and a SF/PF and get them playing fluid 21st century offense. Aside from a front office overhaul, what they need is a coach who can find limited solutions that would maximize their talent in specific matchups and get through to a talented group that seemed just “off” this season for lack of a better word (witness the home/road record discrepancy). I think Lue would be a perfectly reasonable hire.

  316. Aside from a front office overhaul, what they need is a coach who can find limited solutions that would maximize their talent in specific matchups

    Miller seemed to be doing this with the Knicks who also had a big man heavy lineup. That’s why I think he’ll be good in Philly.

    I don’t know about Lue and you make an interesting point about his tweaks. But it’s hard to tell how much he depended on LeBron and Cleveland was a very different team in its construction than Philly is. I agree Lue is a competent coach in the right situation. I’m just not sure Philly is the right situation for him.

  317. It sure seems to me like it’s always a specific kind of coach who gets nailed with the “yes he won a lot but he didn’t actually have anything to do with it” rap. And it’s not the guys who look like Brad Stevens if you know what I mean.

    I agree that race plays a factor, but I think it’s more that the guys who look like Brad Stevens are the ones who are allowed to develop systems in the first place. I mean, it’s simple enough, the coaches with the most impact on developing teams are almost always system guys. Players coaches tend to be better suited for teams that are already good, since they don’t need a system put into place.

    If Philly thinks that their system doesn’t really need to be overhauled (I would disagree) and they were just done in by the Simmons injury, then sure, Lue would be a logical enough pick. I think that they need a system overhaul (as well as a front office overhaul), so I think Lue would be a bad fit there. The fact that they are leaning towards Lue seems to suggest that they don’t think they need an overhaul, but I think that’s a mistake.

  318. “it just goes beyond my reasoning how anyone could back that man“

    During last week’s Democratic National Convention, how many times did anyone mention:

    Violent protests that have killed people and caused billions of dollars in property damage?

    China, the foremost global competitor/opponent of the U.S.?

    The impeachment of Donald Trump?

    #metoo?

    The fact no evidence has ever been found of any “collusion” between the 2016 Trump campaign and Russia?

    Mike

  319. Speaking of systems, there’s really no way Thibs will install a modern offense, right? Which is kind of a bummer. I think you can win as a defensive juggernaut these days, but you also have to be able to space the floor on decent volume (unless you have Lebron and AD). I suppose our draft picks will show us a little more about what Thibs really thinks. Like, if Okoro is there, would he push hard to get him? Would he tolerate a Toppin pick?

  320. ***If Philly thinks that their system doesn’t really need to be overhauled (I would disagree) and they were just done in by the Simmons injury, then sure, Lue would be a logical enough pick.***

    If the only problem for the Sixers was the Simmons injury, why fire Brown at all then?

  321. Speaking of systems, there’s really no way Thibs will install a modern offense, right? Which is kind of a bummer. I think you can win as a defensive juggernaut these days, but you also have to be able to space the floor on decent volume (unless you have Lebron and AD). I suppose our draft picks will show us a little more about what Thibs really thinks. Like, if Okoro is there, would he push hard to get him? Would he tolerate a Toppin pick?

    No coach could install what is now thought of as a modern offense with the roster the Knicks have. Not only can’t it be done, but it would be pointless to try. Teams do better playing to their strengths. So i say the jury is still out on this question.

  322. Mike is right, there are reasons people support Trump: they like some of his positions. The Democratic Party ran against Trump the personality last year and seem to running against Trump’s record this year. It would be nice if they had positions they were trimming on too, but if they do it’s list in the noise.

    I disagree about the collusion part. You have to define collusion really narrowly to say there was none

  323. If the only problem for the Sixers was the Simmons injury, why fire Brown at all then?

    Exactly. It’s pure ass covering from the front office. “There’s no reason for an overhaul. Just switching out Brown will be enough. Don’t fire us.”

  324. The same article also lists Nesmith and Kira Lewis as players that some in the front office like, albeit ones they’d prefer to take after trading down a bit. (Or up from the Clippers pick.)

    if we manage to end up with both nesmith and lewis i’d spend at least a few months on team leon

  325. I’m just ignoring the Bunge post and moving on…

    No coach could install what is now thought of as a modern offense with the roster the Knicks have.

    That’s true, but not a lot of guys will (should) be back, and hopefully they will do their best to trade Randle. They could theoretically add VanVleet, Nesmith, Bane, or others to help space the floor around RJ and Mitch.

    My main concern? Is RJ even someone you should feature with floor-spacers around him?

  326. The fact that they are leaning towards Lue seems to suggest that they don’t think they need an overhaul, but I think that’s a mistake.

    At least the way I see it overhaul & systems coach are not synonymous which seems to be how you’re using them. Philly definitely needs to be doing things differently but when I think of a systems coach I think of a guy who has a pretty rigid idea of how he wants his team to play and comes in and implements that and fits the talent into it vs. on the other hand we can maybe call it a “pragmatist” a guy who comes in and takes the talent and does what’s best given the talent on hand (in reality this is obviously more of a spectrum than an either/or and all coaches embody elements of both).

    Systems coaches tend to be good for developing teams because the talent on hand is pretty fungible and you can get make it work with the system – for example the Knicks currently have Mitch and maybe RJ as no doubt keepers with a bunch of other question marks. They could have hired someone to play any style in the known basketball universe (except I guess 5-out but I don’t think there are any true 5-out hardliners above like low level college yet) without it conflicting with the talent. You could shape the roster to however the coach wants to play.

    The Sixers on the other hand are quite locked in to an extremely specific roster. Their talent is not fungible at all. That roster conflicts heavily with a lot of systems that you might want to run. Would D’Antoni (the ultimate systems coach) be a good hire in Philly? Of course not; you can’t hire him to coach that type of roster, it would make less than no sense. That’s not to say that no systems guy would be a good choice (their roster kind of fits the triangle honestly; what do we think Phil is up to these days?) but it would have to be a pretty specific thing because that roster is going to be tricky. That’s why to my eyes it’s a job for a pragmatist.

  327. If the front office really thinks Nesmith is a guy they can get with the Clippers pick (or in range to trade up from there), they are in for a rude awakening. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s off the board at 8.

    I don’t want to jump to conclusions, because who knows if that’s true. But it strikes me as the same sort of backwards thinking we employed in the 2018 draft: with a late pick, take a guy you know will be good; but with a prime pick, swing for the fences on upside. Goes without saying I feel the complete opposite.

  328. I know, I know, I shouldn’t. But just briefly:

    “it just goes beyond my reasoning how anyone could back that man“
    An argument that regardless of one’s position on various hot topics, Trump is a vile, sociopathic autocrat who even his sister thinks is contemptible and not fit for office. What follows has nothing to do with that.

    “During last week’s Democratic National Convention, how many times did anyone mention:”
    Again, refusal to engage with the argument. Instead, a list of other things.

    “Violent protests that have killed people and caused billions of dollars in property damage?”
    Well okay, although roughly 99+% of protests across the country were non-violent. And let’s ignore the systemic racism and institutional murder that led to those protests. Which was, in fact, addressed — i.e., stop the protests (let’s stop the racism/killing).

    “China, the foremost global competitor/opponent of the U.S.?”
    The competitor/opponent Trump has regularly coddled up to, saying ‘good job’ and ‘great idea to lock up those ethnic minorities’ at various times… But I suppose there could have been more ethnic smears such as China virus…

    “The impeachment of Donald Trump?”
    You mean one of the many options that Congress had to impeach him, that led to a successful impeachment? I agree, that should have come up more frequently.

    “#metoo?”
    Ooo, where’s this leading? It’s okay to rape? Incel much, Mike?

    “The fact no evidence has ever been found of any “collusion” between the 2016 Trump campaign and Russia?”
    See Jowles et al.

    Again, apologies. It goes without saying I suppose, but it’s Tuesday and I had to say it.

    Raven

  329. Adversity does not build character, it reveals it.

    so it goes for our world: When fact is fiction and TV reality

    of all the things to be fearful of this year, d.t. getting re-elected is maybe number 3 or 4…the well-being of family and myself being one and two…

  330. kp out again against the clips…that’s tough for the mavs to lose both powell and kp…kleba is an okay big, but, won’t provide many points…

    i guess it just means we get more boban :)

    interesting to see what happens…

    i wanna write i’m positive denver is not going home today, but…

  331. kp out again against the clips…

    Didn’t seem to hurt them Sunday. It’s almost as if the Mavs are just as good without kp as they are with him (yes, I am baiting a certain kp stan with this.)

  332. I don’t really get the Nesmith love. The dude can absolutely shoot but did nothing else at Vandy. He doesn’t really project well at the SF position, being an anemic rebounder/assistman, and isn’t a great defender. He’s an old sophomore (turning 21 very soon) and locks RJ into a shooting guard position, which is bad. We need shooting, but we shouldn’t just jump at any old shooter–let’s get the right guy. Nesmith doesn’t look like that guy to me. I don’t see him as anything more than a shooter off the bench. And a wing who can shoot and do not much else isn’t more than a bench player in this league. I would think about him at 27, and that’s it, I think.

    Also, lots of draft models don’t like him. As grist for the draft discussion, here are a couple of them:

    Jacob Goldstein’s, based on Wins Added (which is based on PIPM): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133nbtV9vtuENXfUNUWJtHAuSe0Pm2wuS0vp_mKihc4Q/edit#gid=0

    Big Wafe (on Twitter) who generally has models: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P3k8beglT4YL_KAA1IP8-SGcOFEFJhtr8psdUhKIKF4/edit#gid=842000349

    Nesmith doesn’t project well in either of them.

  333. Vernon Carey Jr. sure sticks out like a sore thumb on those models.

    Probably will be wrong about him but seems like he will be underdrafted.

  334. Seems a bit like semi-random cherry-picking (we do that here, right?), but that Tyrese fellow comes in #2 and #3…

  335. “Answering Shaq’s question about his experience in Europe, Luka Doncic named Greece, Serbia, and Turkey the three toughest places to play in.”

    :-)

  336. I would take a flier on Carey Jr. in round two. I think they should look for a ball-handler/passer early since they could probably get good shooting later in the first round (Bane, Joe). Killian/Tyrese/Kira, Bane, and Carey would be an ideal haul. If Killian and Tyrese are both gone by 8 (highly possible), they should maybe go BPA, though. I like Kira, but ideally a bit lower down.

  337. Owen:
    Vernon Carey Jr. sure sticks out like a sore thumb on those models.

    Probably will be wrong about him but seems like he will be underdrafted.

    putting need aside…if he is available late first round…I would go for it…I didn’t watch a ton of college hoops this season but when I watched him…that guy looks like a brandon clarke type but slightly bigger/stronger and same or little better around the rim…

  338. Been thinking about all these draft picks that are “connected” to the Knicks.

    I honestly would love to find a prospect that you don’t have to “see if x skill comes around”.
    For a wing – I would prefer to have a guy who can shoot to a guy who can’t shoot, regardless of whether he is a great defender. I feel like dudes who are really good defenders but can’t shoot are pretty much dime a dozen in free agency (ie. Mbah a Moute, etc). So count me out on Isaac Okoro.

    The hardest skill to find is a guy who can easy shots for himself and others. I get the love for LaMelo but he won’t be available. Looking at the other available PGs – I am loving myself some Kira Lewis. I am not sure what it is about him that makes him a late lottery-teens prospect. He has good size although is a little skinny. His age 18-19 season was this year, and was quite comparable to Ja Morant age 18-19 season – especially bearing in mind Kira was playing in a much better conference with better competition/athletes.

    Kira per 40 – 19.1/5.1/5.6, 36.6 from 3
    Ja per 40 – 15/7.6/7.4, 30% from 3

    his shot looks nice and actually goes in! He has a gear that you just can’t teach and gets to the basket with ease. And by all accounts he’s ok defensively.

    he’s not going to be as good as Ja Morant, but we’re drafting 8th not 1st or 2nd.

    I dunno – I don’t think we should overthink it. He has PG skills, can actually shoot, and can defend. We need someone that can get to the basket and collapse a defense. I like Halliburton but he feels like rich man’s Ntilikina to me.

  339. Uh, Kira shot worse from three than Hali: 37 to 41%.

    Kira’s been a below-average finisher, and he gets pushed around on defense. In fact, Hali bested him when they went head to head this year.

    Plus, Kira’s advanced numbers are similar to Knox’s (!!)

    I like his speed and ability to turn the corner, but you’d be projecting with the very young Lewis just as much as you would with some of these other guys, maybe more so.

  340. I have only barely started to look at prospects, but my initial take on Kira would be that he wasn’t a particularly good college player. He seems more like a guy you’d draft in the 20s

  341. “The hardest skill to find is a guy who can easy shots for himself and others.”

    The eternal debate here.

    It is true that you can pick up a Luc Mbah a Moute. It’s also true that you can pick up a Trey Burke or a Jamal Crawford type as a scoring fill in. Shane Larkin here we come.

    Watching Carey highlights, I kind of get it. He is definitely not the athlete that Clarke is. There is some Okafor potential.

    But if we came out of this draft with Wendell Carter 2.0 in addition to a guard like Halliburton, I’d be ok with things.

  342. Vassell seems like a better bet than Nesmith to be a good two-way wing, so I’d prefer him at 8. Wouldn’t be mad at Haliburton at 8.

    Seems like there are some decent PG prospects who might fall to us at 27. Nico Mannion, Kira Lewis, Tre Jones, maybe one of those guys falls to 27. Devin Dotson, Terrell Terry… there are a bunch of second-tier PGs who would be worth a flyer.

  343. The more I look, the more I think there’s talent in this draft. It’s just not in the top of everyone’s mocks.

    We can get good value at 8 if we aren’t stupid.

    I like Kira Lewis, but not nearly enough to draft him close to 8

    Right now I want Nesmith at 8 unless someone falls. Maybe on Vassell because I’m skeptical of his shooting

  344. i get why people would be down on nesmith. he is shit with the ball, his body control is meh, and he’s a little slow/nondisruptive on the man d side of the ole 3&d. here’s why i like him a little more.

    he seems to do his main thing really well, and that thing is important. his shot looks pure from 28 feet, off a screen, off a one dribble pump, when contested, when off balance. and he has good size to get it off. he shoots it from range and from the line. so many shooters have all this fancy other stuff but big questions about the actual nba shooting potential. he’s got fewer.

    and from that base he’s got some other good things. he’s a pretty clever player on both ends. he gets hip turned by fast guards on d but he’s a pretty damn smart help defender with oddly good timing. on offense he is very good at moving without the ball and anticipating where the play is going. that’s the sort of stuff that “anyone can develop” yet hardly anyone does. more important it’s something that matters for the role he actually would play in the world.

    he’s a plodding guy in the half court with zero vision when dribbling (tho his handle isn’t awful for a shooter and he does t not do dumb shit) so i am in no way saying he’s a steal at 8. but it sure looks like his shot/size/brain will translate a la wes matthews and he might even go all khris middleton on your ass if you’re not careful.

  345. Owen:
    “The hardest skill to find is a guy who can easy shots for himself and others.”

    The eternal debate here.

    It is true that you can pick up a Luc Mbah a Moute. It’s also true that you can pick up a Trey Burke or a Jamal Crawford type as a scoring fill in. Shane Larkin here we come.

    Watching Carey highlights, I kind of get it. He is definitely not the athlete that Clarke is. There is some Okafor potential.

    But if we came out of this draft with Wendell Carter 2.0 in addition to a guardlike Halliburton, I’d be ok with things.

    Carey was a freshman…i think he will be much different by his senior year.

  346. pepper: Carey was a freshman…i think he will be much different by his senior year.

    Maybe, but it’s speculative. I don’t think anyone should take Brandon Clarke as an example to say about another prospect, “Well, if this guy, like Clarke, completely remakes his shooting form, turning into a sharpshooting, screen-setting, rim-protecting, explosive-leaping, small-ball stretch 5, he’s a good pick!” Clarke is a pretty extreme outlier in both NCAA production and development. His trajectory looks an awful lot like Giannis and Kawhi, although I don’t think he’ll ever be as good as either of them.

  347. Man, seeing the Raptors talking about boycotting Game 1 against the Celtics, it must be ridiculously tough for these guys to figure out the best way to handle their shit. They are such public figures and they want to do the right thing, but it’s tough to know what that is. I feel for them.

  348. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Maybe, but it’s speculative. I don’t think anyone should take Brandon Clarke as an example to say about another prospect, “Well, if this guy, like Clarke, completely remakes his shooting form, turning into a sharpshooting, screen-setting, rim-protecting, explosive-leaping, small-ball stretch 5, he’s a good pick!” Clarke is a pretty extreme outlier in both NCAA production and development. His trajectory looks an awful lot like Giannis and Kawhi, although I don’t think he’ll ever be as good as either of them.

    I just threw Clarke out there off the top of my head…it was more of the type of game then a direct comparison…i was just impressed with Carey’s game every time i watched him play…

  349. I mean, I appreciate the players. I don’t think the boycott is the right move for them but credit for considering it.

    Jokic is really something else. 8-8 and 5-5 from three in the first quarter. Just canning threes right over Gobert.

    Utah needs Skynet clearly.

  350. Not that anyone doesn’t know how good Kawhi is, but here are his playoff stats the last 4 postseasons he’s played in:

    51 games
    1901 minutes
    so 37 minutes per game, NOT being babied

    per-36 numbers:
    27.5 points
    8 rebounds
    3.8 assists
    1.8 steals
    0.8 blocks
    True Shooting 64%
    50.3% FG
    39.4% 3PA
    88.3% FT%

    Dude is basically doing 50/40/90 in the playoffs while carrying a usage of ~30, and locking down the opposing team’s best scorer during crunch time.
    Just unreal. All while only having a 3PAR of 27.7% (compare to Harden at ~45% career, Curry at 54% career 3PAR in the playoffs). Just a total beast.

  351. I mean, I appreciate the players. I don’t think the boycott is the right move for them but credit for considering it.

    Boycotting a game isn’t going to do much, in my opinion. We’ve got video of cops brutalizing peaceful protesters and it’s not doing a damn thing. The “millionaires preaching from a millionaires’ bubble” narrative will be strong against them, even if unwarranted.

    They should instead unite and use their money and influence to get people registered to vote. And then blitzing their Instagrams and Twitter to remind people to get their ballots in. A voting initiative in Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Detroit, Grand Rapids and cities like them could be the thing that swings the polls toward a president that might actually oppose militarized-police fascism.

  352. The only way to drive change has always been within the system. VOTE.
    Stupid shit like forcing people to raise a fist at dinner (the refusing diner was actually a protester recently- bad optics), CHAZ, and allowing protests to devolve are just plain taking away from the message.
    Nonviolent protests and voting pushes. That’s it.

  353. >>> The only way to drive change has always been within the system. VOTE. <<<

    Are you sure this is true? Voting is actually what perpetuates the system. Our elections merely change which parts of the system receive attention and funding. And because it always comes at the price of a different part of the system, the side that loses funding and attention typically swells in enthusiasm to vote for the party that is offering them service. Instead of progress, we have a see-saw.

    Historically, the most effective driver of deep, systematic change has been civil disobedience. That, and war.

  354. I do worry that the continued posting of flaming buildings on FOX et. al. is going to influence some swing voters. Sort of like in the movie “The American President: “We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your paticular problem is, I promise you, [Donald J. Trump] is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things, and two things only: making you afraid of it, and telling you who’s to blame for it…that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections.”

  355. Nate McMillan fired by Indiana.

    And the Knicks are apparently interested in Bertans:

    The Hawks, Knicks and Suns are already expected to pursue him, NBC Sports Washington has learned, with Atlanta shaping up to be particularly aggressive. The Hawks will have by far the most cap space this offseason of any team, according to Spotrac. The Suns will have the seventh-most and the Knicks the eighth-most. The Wizards are 12th on the list.

  356. Jowles, what does a race riot from 1921 have to do with anything I said? Here you have a Democratic party itching to promote equality and justice, and a way to get them into the Oval Office: an election.

    Are you sure this is true? Voting is actually what perpetuates the system.

    Are you proposing a system where voting is NOT what drives change? What system would that be?

    Historically, the most effective driver of deep, systematic change has been civil disobedience. That, and war.

    Well, I mentioned nonviolent protests already, so what are you disagreeing with? War? No, I don’t think the situation merits war.

    I do worry that the continued posting of flaming buildings on FOX et. al. is going to influence some swing voters.

    Exactly. That is EXACTLY what will happen. MLK and Gandhi had a different route of promoting change than what is going on right now.

  357. I’m not sure I know what a “boycott” means in this context. Would they just postpone the game for a day or two, or are both teams prepared to forfeit their positions in the playoffs altogether? Because as much as I agree that the current situation is pretty much FUBAR and sympathize deeply with the players desperate desire to do something I can promise you with 100% certainty that the situation will not be materially different on Saturday vs. Thursday. So unless they’re prepared to sit out indefinitely I can’t see it being much more than a hollow gesture. It will definitely be a big story so maybe there’s still some value there but I do think the line to any meaningful change is pretty tenuous.

  358. I don’t get the McMillan move at all. There must be some behind the scenes tension there.

    I’d love for the Knicks to get Bertans, but only if it corresponds with a Randle move (either to the bench or preferably off of the team). Bertans at the 4? I love it. Bertans at the 3, keeping RJ at the 2? Not a fan.

  359. That said, I also see the argument that Bertans is a move you probably should make when you’re closer to actual contention. I guess I’m just kind of thrilled to hear “Knicks interested” and a player’s name put together when that player is actually good and part of the modern NBA.

  360. Voting is great and all, but I don’t think it’s the solution to the police problem. Joe Biden does not care about fascist police repression–he wants to increase funding for police–he cares about dressing up that fascist police repression with things like citizen’s advisory boards (proven not to work); diversity hires (proven not to work); community policing (proven not to work); and banning chokeholds (proven not to work). The difference between Joe Biden and Trump on issues of law and order is that Joe Biden will actually feel bad when he sends federal troops into Portland, or Minneapolis, or Kenosha, or Chicago, or what have you. And he may make some token reforms re: mass incarceration. But the police violence problem is not going to be solved by voting Joe Biden in. I’m not even sure it’ll signficantly help with the fascism problem, since white militiamen are constantly aided and abetted by the police.

    I think that voting and legislation is the downstream effect of a lot more substantive (and generally local/state-level) political work–organizing, protesting, civil disobedience, etc. What’s going to solve the problem is pressuring cities and states via protest–some of it violent–until it becomes nigh-untenable to have a police department that looks anything like its current form. That’s what happened in Minneapolis–whose city council would not have voted to disband the police department without massive grassroots pressure. As far as the police goes, voting is not what’s going to get the goods except by proxy, and whether it does is insensitive to whoever occupies the Oval Office, because police departments are locally controlled.

    Videos of burning buildings might convince some voters to not vote for Biden. But if enough people in America are like that, such that it enables a Trump win, then this nation is fucking hopeless in the first place. In any case, I think protesting–in a variety of ways–is necessary right now, whatever the optics.

  361. Re: the Celtics-Raptors boycott, I like it, even if it’s really low-stakes. The ideal in times like this should be: you cannot turn on the TV without hearing about Kenosha, about police violence. This helps with that. But yeah, it’s not going to be a massive influence one way or the other.

  362. Nate McMillan fired by Indiana.

    i thought mcmillan was/is a good coach…if the nuggets end up falling to the jazz – i think they should hold on to malone, who i also think is a good coach (and, although not completely relevant – a really good person)…

    so the current openings are: bulls, nets, pelicans, sixers, and pacers…the pelicans and pacers may be the two best openings…

  363. Apparently Indiana is planning on getting D’Antoni on the assumption that he will be fired by Houston once they’re eliminated. Myles Turner would probably have to be traded, but otherwise, that makes a lot of sense. They have such a strong defense that they could really use an offensive coach to mix things up. There are some real offensive tools on that team.

  364. i read your words and feel them wetbandit…it’s a really messy and oft times disheartening situation…

    Videos of burning buildings might convince some voters to not vote for Biden. But if enough people in America are like that, such that it enables a Trump win, then this nation is fucking hopeless in the first place.

    that’s a sobering thought to read in the morning…i think of just how morally corrupt trump is – and, quickly remember there are tens of millions of people in our country who feel as he does…

    genocide and slavery have been a constant component of society since forever – it ain’t just a few people doing this stuff…

    although i’m old and see “my” world changing all the time (which freaks me out a bit) – i do believe societies as a whole have become more compassionate over time…the human being ain’t nothing nice though at times…

  365. >>> Are you proposing a system where voting is NOT what drives change? What system would that be? <<<

    Not at all. Maybe David Simon just indoctrinated me too much with Season 3 of the Wire, but I don't believe a system can be reformed from within.

    Boycotts and protests raise awareness, but awareness is at an all time high. And so is will to act. What we're lacking is actors in government. Continuing to vote for non-actors is not going to move the needle. I don't even think it acknowledges that there is a needle.

  366. After helping the LA Clippers beat the Mavericks 154-111 in franchise-record-setting fashion to take a 3-2 series lead, the six-time All-Star revealed that he was “in a dark place” during his walk-off interview with TNT.

    “It was just a little bit of everything,” George later explained when asked what he meant. “I underestimated mental health, honestly. I had anxiety. A little bit of depression. Just being locked in here. I just wasn’t there. I checked out.

    “Games 2, 3, 4, I wasn’t there. I felt like I wasn’t there. Shout-out to the people that were in my corner, that gave me words. They helped big time, help get me right, [get] me back in great spirits. I can’t thank them enough.”

    anxiety is very real…i’ve always thought of it as feeling like you’re running up the stairs with michael myers chasing you…i’ve felt melancholy at times since i was young, but, that’s never been an unpleasant experience for me, i think of it more as a warm blanket covering me…thankfully i’ve been able to be spared the feeling of depression…it’s sounds like a really shitty thing to go through…

    wishing you all well in your own little life bubbles :)

  367. Jowles, what does a race riot from 1921 have to do with anything I said?

    The only way to drive change has always been within the system.

    Huh?

    Are you proposing a system where voting is NOT what drives change? What system would that be?

    You don’t need to propose civil unrest.

    Well, I mentioned nonviolent protests already,

    And I mentioned the Tulsa Massacre because it was a violent protest by whites, seeking to carry out a lynching, and being stopped by black men guarding the accused prisoner. So I mentioned violent protests as a means for change — in this case, it was a change toward conspiracy between state officials and white rioters, and with 10,000+ homeless black Tulsaites, they succeeded.

    Saying that non-violence is the only way? Ahistorical.

  368. I think that voting and legislation is the downstream effect of a lot more substantive (and generally local/state-level) political work–organizing, protesting, civil disobedience, etc. What’s going to solve the problem is pressuring cities and states via protest–some of it violent–until it becomes nigh-untenable to have a police department that looks anything like its current form.

    I disagree. I am a nonviolent person, as is my family and culture (we are not white by the way, and I didn’t think it was necessary to bring up when I was called an example of ‘white fragility’ or whatever-truth shouldn’t depend on the speaker’s background)
    Violence is only the answer when you feel like the system’s establishment of law and order has irredeemably failed. Examples: apartheid, warsaw uprising, french revolution.
    I don’t think the system has failed to the point where armed revolution is necessary. I don’t think burning down a Wendy’s was justified, or rioting in the streets.
    All systems are differing degrees of ‘fail.’ If you think we are on the part of the spectrum where the gauge is red and it is time to fight the police, go ahead. But I doubt enough people will join you to get anything other than jail time.
    What people should do otherwise? Vote for people who believe what you do? Go to law school, get elected or take on these cases. Or write. Or start an organization. Or stage boycotts, sit-downs, anything you can think of to draw sympathetic attention to your plight.
    And come up with a solution. Defunding the police will end up with lower wages and supplies, and corrections-officers levels of results. Horrible. How about a longer training with longer hand-to-hand combat training so shooting a gun isn’t felt to be necessary every time… there are many solutions. There’s a lack of discussion on solutions, but rather screaming about the problem, it’s childish.

  369. Seattle is an interesting case re changing the police. Left-wing city for the most part, and they have a rabidly liberal city council that is all about defunding. Unfortunately one of them was really over the top and snuck in a reg that among other things cut the top cop salaries by 40% — literally nobody noticed, or thought to care. It was one of a couple of complete slaps in the face to the pretty good and relatively new (black, woman) police chief, who promptly quit. Then the Council moved ahead with a defunding plan that was mostly “defund” with very little thought to what happened next or how to provide support to the many services that the police were otherwise supposed to do (and arguably shouldn’t be doing). The mayor, a relatively left Dem, just vetoed the whole thing. And there you are.
    Not sure what the lesson is, except that this is going to be a slow sea change regardless. It’s a bureaucracy carved in iron, and even the best intentioned efforts need really serious thought and planning, and can easily scuttle themselves. Having said that, I’m all in favor of (non-violent) protests to keep it on everyone’s radar. If that dies away the bureaucracy wins.

  370. Vote, protest, etc. Do it all to try to help positive change. I also financially support organizations that fund protests/public pressure, hire lobbyists, file lawsuits, etc. I probably should do even more of that.

  371. Anxiety can certainly impact your ability to perform your job. It interferes with sleep, concentration, motivation, and many other areas of life. One downside of treatment via medication is even that though those medications will reduced the anxiety, they tend to have some other unwelcome side effects.

  372. yeah, i’m back on the xanax strat…i used to feel like shit for just needing to take it, like it was admitting weakness and stupidity…i’m at the point now, i just want my heart to stop racing, don’t wanna feel like i need to scream or crawl out of my skin…

    one thing that helps when it appears is hiking/walking til exhaustion, the high heat right now helps with that…i don’t always have time or the inclination to do that (it’s on my schedule for later today though, looking forward to it)…

  373. Nothing is going to change this system. Virtually every politician and institution is either corrupt, incompetent, or both. The best you can hope for is limited damage. If you are counting on a corrupt incompetent government to solve economic or socials problems, it’s time to wake up and grow up. If you are advocating violence to promote change, you are likely to get a result that is the opposite of what you want.

  374. geo:
    yeah, i’m back on the xanax strat…i used to feel like shit for just needing to take it, like it was admitting weakness and stupidity…i’m at the point now, i just want my heart to stop racing, don’t wanna feel like i need to scream or crawl out of my skin…
    one thing that helps when it appears is hiking/walking til exhaustion, the high heat right now helps with that…i don’t always have time or the inclination to do that (it’s on my schedule for later today though, looking forward to it)…

    I joined a meditation group at a local library. I liked it. It was almost certainly helping. I started meditating once or twice a day on my own too. Then when Covid came the group had to break up and I slowly stopped meditating on my own too. I’m taking Xanax 2-3 times daily now. This is the 2nd time in my life I’ve needed to do that. Last time it took about a year to slowly get healthy enough to get off it. This year, the stresses I’ve been under are so massive, it’s a miracle I haven’t had a breakdown. Somehow I’m getting through it (medication aided) and can still find time to be a pain in the ass on forums. haha One of the biggest stresses may be resolving itself favorably within weeks. If I can get past that, I’m hopeful that I can feel somewhat normal again without the meds someday.

  375. Nothing is going to change this system. Virtually every politician and institution is either corrupt, incompetent, or both. The best you can hope for is limited damage. If you are counting on a corrupt incompetent government to solve economic or socials problems, it’s time to wake up and grow up.

    Deefense, I’m hardly a pie in the sky optimist when it comes to American politics and our governor, but in my humble opinion, this attitude that you’ve expressed is exactly what the “powers that be” want us to feel and think. That the problems our society faces are too big. That government is incompetent and corrupt and unable to fix or solve these issues. That its just all too much and we just have to vote, hope for a maintaining of the status quo and we should be distrustful of the government, all politicians, government institutions and programs, etc.

    All you have to do is look to other countries like Canada, Te Scandanavian countries, Germany, New Zealand…even Japan and South Korea…to know that it doesn’t HAVE to be this way.

    I’m not saying those governments and societies don’t have their own problems. They do. And there is certainly corruption in those places too. But those places I’ve mentioned, by and large, have governments that function for their citizens. And a big reason why is a lot of these places their citizens participate more in the democratic process. They aren’t so cynical about it. They know how the government works (something a lot of people here don’t).

    Don’t let them tell you there is no difference between the two parties. That all politicians and government people are evil and corrupt and stupid and there isn’t a point to it all. If the voting public were more educated and engaged here, our government would work a lot better for us.

  376. and can still find time to be a pain in the ass on forums

    :)

    If the voting public were more educated and engaged here, our government would work a lot better for us.

    and how do you institute that in to your society (without becoming an autocratic type society)???

    indoctrination exists and continues to occur for us all…how do you make it effective on such a large scale though…who do you trust to set the path…

  377. Yikes. So, should we all just commit suicide or just shut up and take it? I’m a Mets, Jets, AND Knicks fan, yet not that cynical…
    :-)

    I seem to recall reading that the “happiest” people are in Denmark, for some reason. If true, I wonder why?

  378. As someone who was skeptical upthread I’ll say that the coverage right now is pretty powerful. It will be fascinating to see this play out over the next couple days but I have to give credit to the Bucks for really putting themselves on the line here.

  379. Brian Cronin: Antoni

    And we were planning on getting Durant. The best laid plans oft go awry; and I’m not even sure the Indiana plan could be described as “best laid”

  380. And we were planning on getting Durant. The best laid plans oft go awry; and I’m not even sure the Indiana plan could be described as “best laid”

    It sounds like they want a more offensive-minded coach period. D’Antoni is their ideal, but if not him, they’ll find someone else in that mold.

  381. ***MLK and Gandhi had a different route of promoting change than what is going on right now.***

    MLK wasn’t the only leader promoting systemic reform in the 50s and 60s, and plenty of building burned down during the movement toward racial equality and inclusion during the 20th century. King had an amazing philosophical strategy and a great gift for promoting it, but it’s a bit simplistic to say that his strategy worked and the others didn’t. He gets the adulation partly because he deserves it, and partly because the oppressive majority that controls the historical narrative felt less threatened by him.

  382. He gets the adulation partly because he deserves it, and partly because the oppressive majority that controls the historical narrative felt less threatened by him.

    And when he died, people said that same bullshit about him then that they say about BLM now.

  383. ***Myles Turner would probably have to be traded***

    I’ll take him.

    (But why couldn’t a D’Antoni(esque) system use him? He can shoot 3s along with defending the rim.)

  384. Are you saying violence is justified? Against whom? Are you saying violence worked back then? Was it justified? Is there as much racial injustice now as in the 60s necessitating that violence? I don’t buy it.

  385. (Why couldn’t a D’Antoni(esque) system use him? He can shoot 3s along with defending the rim.)

    It’s more the fit with Sabonis. They’re too similar and Sabonis is the better player. D’Antoni could easily make one of them work in his system, but two would be superfluous and Turner is too good to be a bench guy, so better off trading him.

  386. Woj:

    Emotions are raw, players were already worn out of bubble environment prior to the Jacob Blake shooting and sources say discussions within teams are ongoing about postponing tomorrow’s three games too — and beyond. “The season is in jeopardy,” one vet player here tells ESPN.

    Tonight’s meeting with players will go a long way toward determining how the players will move forward with rest of season, sources tell ESPN.

    I would really like to see the players go through with this, just to see what kind of impact it would have if they all walked away from the bubble.

  387. The violence we’re seeing isn’t a strategy. It’s an expression of frustration and rage. It’d be better if the reaction wasn’t violent. Sustained nonviolence would probably be more effective.

    The anger is real though, and it’s understandable.

  388. Are you saying violence is justified? Against whom? Are you saying violence worked back then? Was it justified?

    I dunno, did it?

    Is there as much racial injustice now as in the 60s necessitating that violence? I don’t buy it.

    I wish that you would read one short book about racial history in this country. Just one! Pick it, I don’t care. One book.

  389. If you are more worried about the violent protesting of systemic racism and police brutality than you are about systemic racism and police brutality, then you are revealing which of the two is more convenient for you.

    Trayvon Martin, whose murderer wasn’t even a cop, was 10 months younger than me. Mike Brown was 2 years younger than me. Breyona Taylor was born 10 months before me. Ahmaud Arbery was three weeks younger than me. Jacob Blake is three years older than me. As a black millennial, it breaks my heart to see people like me gunned down by the very organization that we were raised to see as the good guys.

    And all people have to say is “it’s an unfortunate situation, but the rioters are wrong.” The same Martin Luther King white people love to point to as the “right way to protest” also said that riots are the language of the unheard. Dismantling systemic racism in America will never happen because entirely too many people benefit from it. So instead we have to riot in the streets and bow out of professional sports games so that people will have nowhere to run and nothing to distract themselves with other than the ugly truth. But yeah, keep criticizing the protestors.

  390. The fish stinks from the head.

    Nba decided to eliminate fanatism/hostility and violence in general, slowly but steadily inside and outside of the court.
    It made the game less passionate but definitely more civilized, family friendly and humane.

    Allowing Violence is always part of a strategy.
    In sports or in real life.

    A not intelligent strategy.

  391. I give you this, it’s an oldie but a goodie, comedic yet honestly eye-opening.
    https://twitter.com/someknew/status/1298441764848590848?s=21

    thanks for sharing Raven, much needed humor today…amongst all the jokes and comedy found on john oliver and the daily show – there’s a heck of a lot of truth…

    it’s scary though – those are our fellow “citizens”…the scary part being – there are many more of those same thinking individuals whom aren’t as stupid or amusing as the folks on that vid…

  392. The whole 17 year old Trumpist vigilante murderer thing does kind of up the ante.

    ah, i get it now…i read the headline, but, i wasn’t sure what the heck was going on with that…wow – annie get your gun…

  393. The remaining teams took a vote on whether to continue the season. The Lakers and Clippers voted to boycott and the other teams want to keep playing. I don’t know what that means. Does that mean that the Lakers and Clippers are just out and the rest of the teams continue without them?

  394. If the Lakers and Clippers leave, the season is over. There’s no legitimacy to a playoffs that the two best teams aren’t part of.

    But perhaps the Lakers and Clipper accept the democratic process and stay in the bubble as a dissenting minority (probably the wrong term to use here given the grievance, but I’m not sure how else to phrase it).

  395. Hey, are the Suns still hanging around inside the bubble? If so, they could slide in and finish out the west bracket as the #1 seed pretty seamlessly (though they wouldn’t have let the Blazers steal game 1:)

  396. But perhaps the Lakers and Clipper accept the democratic process and stay in the bubble as a dissenting minority (probably the wrong term to use here given the grievance, but I’m not sure how else to phrase it).

    That’s proooobably what happens, I would bet. Perhaps after they get an additional concession from the owners.

  397. Woj is suggesting it was more of an informal polling rather than an actual vote and it was just a case of the Lakers and the Clippers saying they don’t want to continue while the other teams seem to suggest that they want to keep playing. Odds are no games tomorrow, as well. It sounds like the players want some sort of assurances from the owners that there they are doing some greater good by being there. I bet if the owners do even more to push the voting stuff then that might be enough for the players who are feeling a bit lost by being in a literal bubble while the rest of the world is dealing with so much turmoil.

  398. Good on Chris Webber, good on the players, NBA and MLB(!).

    I don’t understand why people are calling these actions a boycott, it’s a strike.

  399. It’s not just that Lakers and Clips voted to leave, but that they literally left the meeting after. Per the Athletic:

    Only two teams — the Lakers and Clippers — voted to end the season, while the others, including the Bucks, voted to play on. Sources said the Lakers and Clippers cast their vote, the Miami Heat’s Udonis Haslem asked how the season could continue without them, megastar LeBron James got up and left the meeting, and the rest of the two teams followed. Players were “shocked” when LeBron walked out of the meeting, sources said.

    Pat Beverley was the dominant voice on the Clippers, leading them toward their vote, sources said.

    The meeting, which lasted about three hours and at one time included coaches, ended “ugly,” sources said, though another league source said the vote was more like a first ballot jury vote, with more deliberation to come.

  400. Strat is a nihilist

    I wouldn’t go that far. I’d say I’m a cranky old 61 year old that seen more than enough to start losing faith.

    IMO, the problems aren’t solvable unless you are willing to discuss the underlying causes openly and honestly and then work and make the sacrifices necessary to fix them. But our politicians are generally corrupt/incompetent and more worried about getting elected than actually discussing and fixing problems, the media is more worried about their various political agendas and making money than facts, news and the health of our country, and our population is more or less ignorant or delusional because they are getting their perceptions from the media. That’s not a formula for success. I would liken our efforts to fix problems as putting peroxide and a band-aid on skin cancer and expecting it to heal like a paper cut.

  401. I don’t understand why people are calling these actions a boycott, it’s a strike.

    You’re clearly correct that it’s not a boycott, but it’s not exactly a strike either? At least as I understand it a strike is typically demanding concessions of some kind “I won’t return to work until X” and as of right now I’m not really getting that vibe from it (although it’s a bit unclear I think). I still kind of think “protest” is the right word for now; they protested last night’s games in an effort to raise awareness.

    The big question I think is what happens now. If it ends up being more than just a day or two then I agree it would pretty clearly be a strike at that point and the question is what are the concessions the players are demanding. I think they have a ton of leverage right now and the NBA will bend over backwards to do things within their power to calm the players…but really the things they are wanting/demanding aren’t within the NBA’s power. I don’t know how to resolve that fundamental discrepancy.

  402. More I read about it, the more I hear of the intense emotional turmoil a lot of the players feel. It’s really intense. They had already felt survivor’s guilt about leaving their communities, making a ton of money, and not having the same exact experience with cops and authorities anymore. Then they felt they could voice things within postgame conferences etc. Now they are kept in a bubble literally isolated from issues, protests, and their communities, along with the stress Paul George spoke about coming from that isolation, and they feel extremely frustrated. They already felt the NBA approved activist messages on the court and jerseys were too “sanitized.” They don’t want to play ball right now. Boycott/strike or whatever, good on them. Hope all the Bucks and other players make some media appearance talking about their personal experiences with racism.

  403. It was a beautiful message from Chris, but there’s also this: “What’s next? I don’t know what’s next. We need to get everyone’s attention first, that’s the first step.”

    Everyone is paying attention. Everyone has been paying attention since May. Everyone was paying attention in 2014 when Michael Brown was killed. Everyone was paying attention to Eric Garner. Everyone in the country had an opinion on Colin Kaepernick.

    Attention is at an all time high. The problem is all we have are people who are great at attracting attention. Someone actually needs to do what’s next because we’ve repeated step 1 a thousand times.

    I applaud these players, but go further. Go on strike. With MLB. WIth the NFL. Fuck with the money of 92 of the most powerful men in America – men who have extorted government for countless billions already – and make them do your work.

  404. I think the concessions that players want, from what I can gather, is for the team owners to be more involved.

    That could happen in many different ways, but hopefully they can pinpoint what it would look like and make it happen. Rich people need to be highly inconvenienced for things to happen, as wealth is still what gets things done.

    If the owners could unite on pushing forward a voting platform, regional and national, that would be a great start. Of course, that fat fuck Dolan would probably sit it out – or be forced to rethink his politics.

  405. This is so fascinating to me (and amazing). You would think a bunch of basketball players wouldn’t hold that much power but all the NBA owners are billionaires. They do have real power in this country. The players could refuse to play unless the owners back some real change/reforms in our country. Having BLM on the back of jerseys and a few commercials is nice, but its ultimately window dressing and the players are sacrificing a lot by being in the bubble. The owners have lost money all ready with the season being cut short and next season is going to be rough too. This is a moment where the players do have some real leverage. Ultimately, they alone can’t do it but they have a chance to get through to their billionaire owners. Its really an amazing thing. I hope more baseball players/teams and we’re getting close to the NFL starting back up too. If all 3 of the major leagues took a stand right now, that’s a lot of billionaire owners they can hopefully get through to.

  406. I agree with the last 2 posts notion that the owners ( as Oligarchs/Plutocrats) wield the most power to address the issues that plague our country. The shift in wealth and therefore power over the past 50 years has been unprecedented in this country and has been facilitated in part by the lack of knowledge that too many citizens have about this state of affairs. Pro athletes have a unique bully pulpit to bring this to the country’s attention and pressure these 92 cratgarchs to use their political capital to push for actual change.
    To wetbandit’s great point, I was naive and ignorant about just how deep the pain is for Black athletes. Seeing this clip of the Met’s Dominic Smith, one of the most ebullient athletes I have seen really brought home this point.
    https://twitter.com/RocNationSports/status/1298962633597562881?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

  407. Wow. I pretty much stopped following baseball years ago, but I just googled Aubrey Huff, and he sounds like a real piece of shit!

  408. >>> If the owners could unite on pushing forward a voting platform <<<

    Voting is not a "what's next" plan, it's a cop out. You know these politicians are in bed with the police unions, right? They do everything side by side. The people you're voting for are complicit. They're performance artists, not actors.

    We need to pressure people who can get the people we voted for to act. Any plan that lacks that is a waste of time.

  409. You want a fix? Lobbies shouldn’t exist, how’s that. I get there are some ‘good’ ones, but the bad ones just overpower them by orders of magnitude. Fires looting and guns won’t help anyone other than TV ratings. It’s anarchy. Unorganized and dumb. There’s gotta be some smart leader out there who can vocalize some kind of PLAN. And the end result should be systemic- better voting. Knocking voting doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s literally the power of the people. Alternatives don’t exist

  410. Owen:
    I wouldn’t look for MLB to do much. Lot of Aubrey Huffs in that league.

    Also, only about 8% of MLB is African American. Though two of the most visible teams ( Yanks and Dodgers) have high profile Black players ( Mookie Betts/ Judge, Stanton. I believe Magic Johnson is in the Dodger’s ownership group). To me, the most interesting is the NFL( about 70% Black) because of the demographics of its fanbase. If NFL players are able to reach the hearts and minds of some of the Obama to Trump voters that could truly rattle the Republicans. For any of this to happen, players ( and owners that support them) need to engage in the same tactics that the right did starting in the ’70s and hire lobbyists and political consultants to try to change the attitudes of the people in this country.
    Edit-To Hubert’s point to pressure the pols who are in bed with the police unions( or in the case of DeBlasio afraid) or vote them out. This of course will take time and money.

  411. Of note, Woj says ‘majority’ of players want to continue playoffs. I think they all have huge leverage now to get owners to say or do what they want or lose millions.

  412. Hubert:
    >>> If the owners could unite on pushing forward a voting platform <<<

    Voting is not a “what’s next” plan, it’s a cop out.You know these politicians are in bed with the police unions, right?They do everything side by side.The people you’re voting for are complicit.They’re performance artists, not actors.

    We need to pressure people who can get the people we voted for to act.Any plan that lacks that is a waste of time.

    I would argue that part of the reason the political process has been co-opted in the way you (accurately) describe is because of perpetually low turnout elections. Low turnout elections with a lot of low information voters are a big part of what gives power to the machines, the lobbies, makes money such an important force, etc. If you could get the populace to consistently both pay attention to and turn out for not only presidential elections but also state and local races (and importantly, primaries) then voting can be the mechanism for holding politicians accountable in my opinion.

  413. thenamestsam said it better than me, but I’ll add that if voting doesn’t matter, why are Republicans doing everything in their power to keep people from doing it?

    We need to pressure people who can get the people we voted for to act

    So by this, do you mean that someone like the Bucks owner Wes Edens should go to his elected city and state officials and say something like “my players are unhappy and I’m losing business, so if you want any money from me for your reelection campaigns, you need to fix your police forces ASAP”?

    This would be a bold move, but it might lead to mixed results. It really depends on each specific owner, their politics, and where they are in the country. Ultimately, they could threaten to move their teams.

  414. This not a leading question, because I don’t know my answer, but: when you say “fix the police” what exactly would you do?
    My answer, I’m not sure, might be higher pay, longer training, and psych testing, but don’t know how far that goes. I have heard combat training as a way to plan ahead, take nerves out of the equation, and use nonlethal tactics effectively. Oh, and abolish police unions; if docs can’t unionize, so can’t the police, same reasons.

  415. And the end result should be systemic- better voting. Knocking voting doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s literally the power of the people.

    Yeah, voting should work. But has it?

  416. the media is more worried about their various political agendas and making money than facts

    Just because a person can’t be bothered to seek out good journalism doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    ProPublica
    Center for Public Integrity
    Center for Investigative Reporting (Reveal)
    The New Yorker (Farrow, Mayer, Hersh, Gessen, Luo)
    Lawfare Blog (Brookings)
    Just Security

  417. Yeah, voting should work. But has it?

    Has it not? I would argue our systems need legislative change before democracy is declared a failure. Would you not say, abolishing lobbies and the like, cracking down on gerrymandering, fixing voter rights would altogether make for a HUGE difference in the way the system?
    Huge plus-100 for ProPublica, their 2010 doctors in Katrina report was huge. CPI is great as well.
    As for mainstream stuff, there is nothing of quality anymore

  418. ess-dog:
    thenamestsam said it better than me, but I’ll add that if voting doesn’t matter, why are Republicans doing everything in their power to keep people from doing it?

    So by this, do you mean that someone like the Bucks owner Wes Edens should go to his elected city and state officials and say something like “my players are unhappy and I’m losing business, so if you want any money from me for your reelection campaigns, you need to fix your police forces ASAP”?

    This would be a bold move, but it might lead to mixed results. It really depends on each specific owner, their politics, and where they are in the country. Ultimately, they could threaten to move their teams.

    In part, the owners amassed their fortunes by knowing how to manipulate politicians( Dolan is more infamous for union busting). It becomes a question of do they have a sincere will to do so. Marc Lasry, a Bucks co-owner ( and a NYer) has publicly stated that he supports what the players want to do. What he means by that is what is critical. Is this lip service to mollify the athletes, or is there a genuine desire to serve as a change agent?

  419. thenamestam, I’m not saying don’t vote (although I have always been curious about the knock on effect of mass voter abstention, and whether or not it would lower the barrier of entry enough to create viable new parties… but I digress).

    By all means, vote. Just don’t roll out a get out the vote campaign in lieu of something that will actually help.

    It’s like this… imagine if you had to build a house today. That’s a lot of work. Voting is the equivalent of getting out of bed. You can’t stop there and expect the house to be built.

  420. the playoffs will resume…maybe friday…i have no doubt there are many players that could care less about a trophy or any additional monies received for staying in the bubble to play, good for them for sticking it out and having the opportunity to continue to voice their concerns…

  421. Exactly, Bo. Adam Silver and Wes Edens managed to extort $250mm in state funding from Wisconsin to build their arena. They can do something in Kenosha, Milwaukee, and every municipality they play in if they so desired. But it will take strong determination by the players to force them to.

  422. Yes, the NYT is great, but it isn’t unbiased. I thought we were discussing reporting, not analysis.

  423. Good stuff by the players. Looks like they’ve got some additional social justice concessions out of the league.

  424. Bias is impossible to avoid, but some biases — like those toward objective fact and neutral reporting language — are virtues for a professional journalis. There is no such thing as an “unbiased” journalist.

    Writing it off for being more biased than some mythical “objective” newspaper of the past (or present) is simply absurd, a No True Scotsman argument if I’ve ever seen one.

  425. you know what, all that expert “journalism” is fine and whatever, but – i hear voices in my head, and, yeah i’m gonna go with that as reality…

    what you “woke” folks fail to realize is – that all the answers to all the questions are in dreams and demon seed…

    get with it, or get left behind…

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