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Tuesday, October 15, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2017.12.29)

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks lose to Spurs, fall to 2-12 on road
    (Friday, December 29, 2017 1:05:04 AM)

    Kristaps Porzingis never got into an offensive rhythm, and he had his share of difficulties on the other end guarding LaMarcus Aldridge.

  • [NY Newsday] Tony Parker thinks Frank Ntilikina has what it takes to be good
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:40:00 PM)

    Tony Parker is a fan of Frank Ntilikina’s game. The team in France owned by Parker (ASVEL) played Ntilikina’s (Strasbourg) the previous three years, and Parker saw enough to believe that the rookie point guard will make an impact in the NBA.

  • [NY Newsday] 2017 coaching, exec changes: Few NY-area teams went untouched
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 6:19:00 PM)

    It has been a tumultuous year for New York-area managers, executives and coaches:

  • [NYTimes] Spurs 119, Knicks 107: Knicks Fall to 2-12 on the Road With Loss at Spurs
    (Friday, December 29, 2017 4:32:48 AM)

    The Knicks were able to push the pace against the Spurs, who were without Kawhi Leonard, but could not overcome a balanced effort from San Antonio.

  • [NYDN] Tony Parker helped Frank Ntilikina prepare for rookie season
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:23:07 PM)

    French point guards stick together.

  • [NYDN] Knicks drop fourth straight game with 119-107 loss to Spurs
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:22:05 PM)

    It’s officially trouble time.

  • [NYDN] Justin Holiday explains why he thought he’d re-sign with Knicks
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:25:48 AM)

    Justin Holiday wanted to return to the Knicks and believed the feeling was mutual.

  • [NYDN] Knicks’ Enes Kanter trying to block out looming contract decision
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 7:09:26 AM)

    It’s been long assumed Enes Kanter will opt into the final year of his contract. The $18.4 million is just too great.

  • [NYPost] Knicks overwhelmed by Kawhi Leonard-less Spurs
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 6:26:41 PM)

    SAN ANTONIO — The Knicks were just relieved they weren’t blown out of Alamo City. They received a holiday gift from Spurs coach Gregg Popovich, who rested superstar Kawhi Leonard on Thursday night for what the Spurs termed as “return from injury management.’’ Popovich made the right call and the Knicks returned below the .500…

  • [NYPost] What could determine Kyle O’Quinn’s future with the Knicks
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 4:13:31 PM)

    SAN ANTONIO — The Knicks’ interest in trading Kyle O’Quinn at the Feb. 9 trade deadline will rise at the same rate as their chances of making the draft lottery. According to league sources, O’Quinn’s market value will depend on how clubs view his opt-out clause. The Knicks are under the impression O’Quinn, a Queens…

  • [NYPost] Frank Ntilikina is finally getting the matchup he’s dreamed of
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 6:24:44 AM)

    SAN ANTONIO — French point-guard pioneer Tony Parker knows Knicks rookie Frank Ntilikina all too well. As the quarterback for Strasbourg last season, Ntilikina led his French team past Asvel in the French League semifinals. Parker, the Spurs legend, has owned Asvel for three years and said Ntilikina “was on our radar’’ in 2014 before…

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks lose to Spurs 119-107, drop below .500
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 11:08:35 PM)

    The Knicks drop their fourth straight, and fall below .500, with a 119-107 loss to the Spurs.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tony Parker hopes New York will be patient with compatriot Ntilikina
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 9:28:55 PM)

    Tony Parker believes in the ability of Frank Ntilikina– but hopes the Knicks are patient with him.

  • [SNY Knicks] Enes Kanter isn’t thinking about contract decision
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 8:40:17 PM)

    Enes Kanter could opt-out of his contract after this season and become a free agent.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s game: Knicks vs. Spurs, 8:30 p.m.
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 6:06:46 PM)

    After losing to the lowly Bulls, the Knicks travel to San Antonio to take on the Spurs.

  • [SNY Knicks] Willy Hernangomez: I don’t like my situation
    (Thursday, December 28, 2017 4:00:02 PM)

    Willy Hernangomez has played just five minutes in the last eleven games, and his situation is becoming increasingly difficult.

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    100 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.12.29)

    1. 2FOR18, understands math

      OK, do we still have to wait until February and possibly squeak out a couple of more meaningless wins before going into tank mode, or has everyone seen enough yet?
      Tank mode = trade Lee, O’quinn, Beasley and anybody else possible not named KP or Frank for picks and cheap young players, dump Jack and Sessions, play Frank, Dotson and Willy 30 mins a game each, and bring up Burke.

    2. Stacey Patton

      @1 – Luckily, over the next several weeks, I think the Knicks will still lose a lot of games so a deliberate tank is not all that necessary. I don’t think they’ll sit KP or Frank for BS reasons but they have shown they will be conservative when they tweak something.

      I’m hopeful that the decision will be made for management, that they should pursue a youth movement.

      I realize I’m nitpicking at your post, but I don’t think Beasley has much trade value.

    3. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      I think we have to wait until close to the trade deadline. That is when we are most likely to get interesting offers for players lije O’Quinn and Lee who could be useful to contenders.

    4. wetbandit

      Beasley is on a min one year, but may be an important just-out-of-the-rotation piece for a playoff team like the Cavs. I’d take anything for him that isn’t a negative.

      I hate it, but I just knew this would happen. The moment we wished we lost more, so that we would have realized sooner, so that we’d act earlier, that we have no reason to float on the backs of vets. If we were doing well due to KP and Frank, fine, but we’re not, and we all see it.

    5. Stacey Patton

      I think we have to wait until close to the trade deadline. That is when we are most likely to get interesting offers for players lije O’Quinn and Lee who could be useful to contenders.

      Agree. Have any the other NBA nerds here thought about which you would want to send KOQ and/or Lee to in order to put them over the top? I think they’d give a nice boost to Houston or Cleveland.

    6. wetbandit

      By the way, the introspective abilities of both Frank and KP are something I’ve never seen before. KP knew the last few games that he had to contribute something else when he struggles offensively (speaking of which, they should start calling fouls on those shot-altering touches KP keeps getting, or he should shut up and figure something out). Then last night he seemed to take less dribbles, shoot quicker, pass a lot more, and put up more effort on rebounds. Frank has been saying that he needs to attack the basket more, and he has. They both seem to be aware of their limitations and seem to be working on it.

      Also, Frank and KP on defense is AMAZING. KP’s rim-protection is not spoken about nearly enough- it seems he alters or blocks every other drive to the hoop in his vicinity. And Frank just doesn’t give a damn if he gets a foul (which is bad, I guess), and will defend each play to the last (which is like a breath of an Amsterdam tulip garden in the middle of the Knicks’ collective Chinese squatting-hole of point guard defense)

    7. d-mar

      I really think it’s time to start Frank. What exactly is Jack giving us as a starter – veteran leadership, court savvy? He’s getting torched by all the starting PG’s he goes up against; put Frank in there and see what he can do. What’s the downside?

      I’d also be interested to see him work with the starters, particularly KP.

    8. Bruno Almeida

      When Frank starts to understand how hard he can go without fouling, he will be such a pain defensively. Right now the best guards can still get bailed out by fouls because of how eager he is and how hard he goes every possession, which is a great problem for a young guy to have. Basically what Parker said in his interview last night, having great defense coming into the league is a rare commodity (and, like he said, hope NY is patient with him).

    9. hoolahoop

      @ 2-18

      Just because you trade some vets for youth isn’t tanking, “shouldn’t” be tanking.
      Tanking insinuates losing intentionally to get a better pick. The best teams tweak and rebuild while establishing a winning culture. The key is making good deals. Getting better while focusing on the future. Rebalancing assets with other teams.

      Right now, the notion of moving up a couple of spots in the draft is fools gold for the knicks. Losing is cancer. If you’re going to lose, you should have a damn good reason. Moving up a couple of spots in the draft is not one of them. Getting younger just for the sake of getting younger is not one.
      The knicks need to get better, with young(ish) players. PG, wing.

      Maybe we’re saying the same thing, but the knicks shouldn’t go into “tank mode”.

      Stratomatic said it perfectly yesterday,

      This place gets very depressing after a few losses. lol

      We are still in a pretty good position long term. We have a few iffy contracts and Noah is problematical, but it was clear we weren’t gong to be very good for another few years anyway. All those contracts will be gone by then. If we don’t panic and make a dumb deal or sign any more bad contracts, our young players will get better, we’ll add good young players in the draft, and we’ll have opportunities to add pieces in free agency. If we pull off just one coup in a trade or free agency everything will change over might. If KP figures it all out this year or next, it will all change over night. If we strike hidden gold in the draft it will all change over might. What we can’t do is make any panicked or highly suspect moves like we made this off season. They all make a mistake here or there (including SA and HOU) . You just can’t make too many of them or they add up. We have to be patient and win trades.

    10. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, let’s put all of our hope on to the assumption that Perry / Mills turn into RC Buford as a new year’s resolution. I’m sure that will work!

    11. mase

      our best trade chips are kanter and Mcdermott not Lee or KOQ, IMHO. and i would consider Beasley a an asset for a trade to a playoff team but the idea that Lee , when no one wanted him last year at the deadline and KOQ as our best tradeable players is just false i think.

    12. Brian Cronin

      “Tanking” is just a more dramatic version of “teardown rebuild,” which teams have been doing for longer than most of us have been alive. So sure, if you prefer the Knicks to do a “teardown rebuild” rather than “tanking,” by all means, use that terminology.

    13. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      The thing that hurt our turnaround was not having 2 first round picks during Phil’s administration. If we had those 2 picks, we’d be WAY further along toward building the team we are going to need to get serious. But again, we aren’t positioned badly now. We have a few good young prospects, all our 1st round picks going forward, and a few trade chips.

      It’s going to be a multi year process. We have to get used to it mentally and root for the right things.

      What we want is for KP, Frank, THJ, Willy etc.. to keep improving and management to not make any bad long term moves that interfere significantly with the end game in 3-5 years. Noah’s bad contract and any other iffy contracts will be gone by then. We are going ti be fine. It will just take time (and better shot selection from KP).

    14. Z-man

      Kanter and McDermott are not quite as valuable as trade chips due to their contracts. Kanter has a player option and will likely opt out. McDermott has QO/RFA status. We’d have to take some garbage back to unload Kanter if we want anything valuable.

      Lee is a trade chip right now. He’s a good two-way player on a reasonable contract and could really help a playoff team shore up its bench. O’Quinn also has a player option, but his salary is so low this year he can be easily absorbed by lots of teams.

    15. 2FOR18, understands math

      @9 I’ve tried to explain this to you before, and I will try again. What I wrote in my post is my personal definition of tanking. For the millionth time, and I am not advocating losing on purpose. Please either try to read harder or just ignore my posts.

    16. 2FOR18, understands math

      @11 from my post: “…Tank mode = trade Lee, O’quinn, Beasley and anybody else possible not named KP or Frank for picks and cheap young players

    17. 2FOR18, understands math

      @13, Good point.
      Or perhaps “tanking” (exchanging your older assets for picks/younger assets and playing the kids to see what you have) can be considered a method of doing a “teardown rebuild”.

    18. Bruno Almeida

      I just hate this cliche idea that losing is cancer when no one can sufficiently explain why it is. The freaking Warriors had 17 losing seasons (under .500) in 20 years before the Curry team exploded. The Cavaliers were fucking terrible for 5 straight years before they got LeBron, and they didn’t acquire said “cancer”. Even the Spurs had one season at .500 and 5 under before they drafted Robinson, and I won’t even use the Sonics / Thunder as an example since they didn’t end up with a title. Even the damn Celtics sucked for 8 years after Bird / McHale and before Pierce came into his own.

      There’s no indication at all that losing somehow destroys a franchise, and yet we keep having the same discussions.

    19. mase

      ‘teardown rebuild’ to me means trading anyone and everyone to complete overhaul making us competitive as quick as possible; which would mean KP and Frank would be available.

    20. wetbandit

      The Warriors are such a freak accident of an organization where they basically hit on almost 50% of their draft picks over a 3 year timespan, and some on all-time-great players. I can’t imagine that every franchise can be so lucky. It’s obvious that for every great draft pick, you have to make great moves; for every draft of a Curry, you have to sign a Durant, etc. The Celtics, Cavs, Warriors, Spurs, all seem to make great signings that are as important as drafting well.
      The key is to know where you are, and who to sign- Lee, Jack, Lance, Beasley, O’quinn, would be great if we were 7th seed without them. But I don’t think anyone thinks that.

    21. Grocer

      From who, precisely, are we going to get decent return for Lee or O’Quinn? Kyle’s been on the trading block since the Melo deal, there just doesn’t seem to be a contender who wants to give up anything for half a year of a solid backup C. Cavs could use him but they think they’re gonna be rebuilding next year because James is leaving, so they’re not giving up any picks. Maybe Boston’s own 2nd rounder? That’ll have a ton of value.

      Lee would be useful to a range of teams, but we’d need to take back old players on pricey contracts because we’re sending out an old player on a pricey contract. Might get a late second to sweeten the deal. But he’s been openly up for trade since Perry got hired.

      The FO hasn’t traded those two because no one is offering anything worthwhile for them. Nobody wants them that much and every team not named Warriors or Rockets or Thunder are looking to the future and holding their picks tight because they don’t think they can compete. Also they saw the Knicks and the Nets give up all their picks and end up screwed – nobody wants to be us.

    22. Grocer

      The only assets we’ve got that have real trade value are KP, sort of Frank, and maybe Willie. If you think we need to tank then we need to sell off KP and start over. It’ll be different! Trading young players for picks instead of vets.

    23. Stacey Patton

      The Spurs have missed the playoffs once in the past 30 years due to David Robinson being injured in 1996. This was coming off a 59-win season! When they did, they landed Tim Duncan in the draft in ’97 and ousted coach Bob Hill (coming off 62-win and 59-win in the two seasons prior) for Gregg Popovich in the middle of the season.

      Although all of that could be an argument for (1) the idea that tanking can be good or (2) the idea that making the playoffs is good for a franchise.

    24. JK47

      All the talk about tanking vs rebuilding vs winning seems kind of moot. We’re strategically boxed in because we’re not exactly asset-rich, so the only real moves the Knicks have to make are drafting a guy around #8 every year and waiting for bad contracts to come off the books. It’s like watching paint dry. This is not going to be a particularly fun or exciting rebuild the way this roster is set up, but it’s really too late to do anything else.

    25. The Infamous Cdiggy

      By the way, the introspective abilities of both Frank and KP are something I’ve never seen before.

      This is the main reason why people need to really chill. All this “Year 3 Jump” hand-wringing about KP – look, could he stand to gain a bit more strength and develop better shot selection? Yes. And this is his FIRST year as the primary focus on offense.

      It took Kevin Durant, what, 5 to 6 seasons to truly understand where to get his “good apples“. I think KP will figure it out – let’s not Patrick Ewing him.

    26. iserp

      I just hate this cliche idea that losing is cancer when no one can sufficiently explain why it is. The freaking Warriors had 17 losing seasons (under .500) in 20 years before the Curry team exploded. The Cavaliers were fucking terrible for 5 straight years before they got LeBron, and they didn’t acquire said “cancer”. Even the Spurs had one season at .500 and 5 under before they drafted Robinson, and I won’t even use the Sonics / Thunder as an example since they didn’t end up with a title. Even the damn Celtics sucked for 8 years after Bird / McHale and before Pierce came into his own.

      There’s no indication at all that losing somehow destroys a franchise, and yet we keep having the same discussions.

      I don’t get it, dont you think that 17 years without a winning season is indicative that it is difficult to escape the losing cycle? And that is the Warriors, which are successful nowadays, what is your opinion on Sacramento’s record lately?

      Obviously, win-now movements usually doom a franchise to said losing cycles, so I am not advocating doing such thing to “avoid losing”. But I do believe that if you only focus on tanking hard and draft, you are missing on some other ways to obtain value. So, if we are not getting a good return on Lee, I’d rather keep him and wait to the offseason, or next years deadline. If we could tank so hard to get Doncic, that would be different, but barring a season-ending injury to Porzingis (which would also be bad for the future) it would near impossible.

      So, I’d say do smart trades, and good signings in FA, and not obsess so much with the draft.

    27. mase

      @23
      thats the point i was making saying kanter would be our best chip other than KP especially for a playoff contender, his contract will be off the books cuz he will opt out. so they get a rental for 1/2 season and we get something other than nothing cuz i dont think we have the need for him as much as we all like him.
      many people will be disappointed at the offers, if any, for a 32 year old vet named lee. just like last season when no one offered anything

    28. JK47

      So, I’d say do smart trades, and good signings in FA, and not obsess so much with the draft.

      It’s kind of hard to do “smart trades” when you don’t have anything that anybody wants.
      “Good signings” in FA are also rare, because you’re paying market value for the guys you are signing. You want guys who outperform their contracts, guys who give you surplus value. It is very difficult to do this via free agency.

      If you’re bad, the way to get better is to stockpile assets. Stockpiling assets is another way you “win trades.” When a star player becomes available, it’s kind of nice to have things that other teams want, so you can trade for that star player. This isn’t hard, guys!

    29. GoNyGoNyGo

      No matter what you want to call it, we should be looking for more ping-pong balls. I’ve seen what I needed to see in Ntilikina and Porzingis to know that the arrow is pointing up. What we need now are two more great draft picks. The rules are simple, don’t trade anyone under the age of 26. Everyone else is fair game. Trade Beasley. Trade Lee. Trade Thomas. Cut and stretch Noah.

      BTW, Twitter rumors are flying about a Hernangomez for Mirotic trade.

    30. Grocer

      thats the point i was making saying kanter would be our best chip other than KP

      Are contenders still convinced he’s unplayable in the playoffs? He’s unlikely to get as much money as he’s getting now on a new contract so he’ll probably opt in. That’s a big chunk of money for a capped out contender, and what are we likely to get back that’s useful?

      We’re the team he probably fits best with because KP’s rim protection helps cover his defensive lapses and his offensive skill helps cover KP’s inability to finish in traffic. I kinda hope there’s not any broader league interest in Kanter, hopefully we can sign him to a cheaper extension.

      This isn’t hard, guys!

      It is if you don’t have anyone to trade to acquire assets.

    31. iserp

      It’s kind of hard to do “smart trades” when you don’t have anything that anybody wants.

      Ok, dont trade then. But do not make a trade for the sake of making a trade. A good trade may come out later.

      “Good signings” in FA are also rare, because you’re paying market value for the guys you are signing. You want guys who outperform their contracts, guys who give you surplus value. It is very difficult to do this via free agency.

      Yes, it is, but there are players whose talents are unknown (undrafted rookies / played very few minutes / played out of position / injury comeback / …), and you can swing for the fences. Also, market value might be too expensive or a very good value depending on the player and the market situation.

      If you’re bad, the way to get better is to stockpile assets. Stockpiling assets is another way you “win trades.” When a star player becomes available, it’s kind of nice to have things that other teams want, so you can trade for that star player. This isn’t hard, guys!

      What part of dumping our assets to be so bad to get a draft pick equals stockpiling assets? Yes, you win a higher draft pick, but you lose on some of the assets you already had. Is it worth dumping Kanter for a pick 2 spots higher?

    32. bobneptune

      I can’t believe there isn’t a trade somewhere for A 43% 3 ball shooter who is at least ok defensively as an asset to a playoff team. Take the Bucks who weren’t an easy out last year vs a very good Toronto is 24th in 3’s made and 28th in attempts so I’m guessing Lee would be a good fit for them.

      They have Teletovich who is an equal salary and is old and likely out for the season with knee surgery and blood clots in each lung with one extra year remaining on his contract.

      Is Lee’s 3 ball prowess worth the low 20’s pick the Bucks are looking at?

      Forward Mirza Teletovic could be sidelined until late in the season, which would put the Bucks in the market for a shooter, Gery Woelfel of Woelfel’s Press Box reports. Teletovic was diagnosed with pulmonary emboli in his lungs earlier this month. Teletovic will be sidelined for at least three more months, sources told Woelfel. Without him, Milwaukee is vulnerable on the perimeter offensively. “They just don’t have outside shooters,” a veteran advance scout told Woelfel. “I see that as their biggest weakness.’’

    33. Bruno Almeida

      @28

      My point is that even a franchise that had so much in terms of bad decisions and just overall bad luck sometimes can turn it around once they get the single most important thing to winning in the NBA: talent, not a winning culture. Winning cultures happen when there’s talent on board.

      My argument is that there’s nothing inherently “cancerous” or destructive about losing; what’s destructive and cancerous is bad management, bad players, bad ownership, bad drafting, bad signings. Even teams that had all of those issues managed to become successful (like the Cavaliers, for example) once they had the talent.

      I would fucking love to have this team develop through “smart trades and good signings”, but honestly, sometimes it feels you guys are living in hypothetical fairylands where the Knicks front office is RC Buford and Pop or something.

      Badly managed teams, and for all indications we have outside of pure wishful thinking the Knicks are one, luck into success through the draft (or being the Lakers / Celtics and bringing top free agents/ trade targets). Thats why maximising draft position is still the best possibility.

      Now, if anyone thinks Mills and Perry are great basketball minds and the Knicks have enough talent already, well, I sincerely hope against reason you are right.

    34. chrisk06811

      We could use a Knickerblogger rule where you can’t post a player you want to trade without showing a proposed trade where the salaries work. It would save sifting thru dozens of “trade Lee and Beasley and the rights to Edmund Sherrod and Andy Routins for picks / young players”.

    35. thenoblefacehumper

      The Sixers traded two flyers in Okafor and Stauskas and a 2nd round pick for Trevor Booker, who is older, more expensive, and worse than KOQ. I’m almost certain there are moves we could make that would marginally brighten our future outlook at the expense of the current team. If we don’t make those moves, the current front office simply doesn’t get it.

      Other than those kinds of moves though, our bed was largely made when Phil Jackson sat on his ass trying to triangulate a 17-win team into a 50 win team for three years without collecting a single asset that wasn’t legally owed to us by the NBA. We should collect what we can for Lee and KOQ but aside from that we pretty much have to take our lumps and hope KP/Willy/Frank/THJ (and maybe Kanter/McDermott) turns into a solid core.

    36. bobneptune

      BTW, Twitter rumors are flying about a Hernangomez for Mirotic trade.

      Lee and Willy for Mirotic and Grant would have a certain “je ne sais quoi”, no?????

    37. ClashFan

      I’m all for trading the vets and enjoy looking at Trade Machine proposals. But, we have no idea what other teams are offering at this time.

      It’s possible that other teams are offering nothing better than lowball offers at this time. That may change next month as the trade deadline appears on the horizon and begins to come closer.

      As for Mirotic for Willy (and whatever to match salaries). M is going to be 27 in a couple of months. He’s an interesting player but more of a win now kind of guy.

    38. Bruno Almeida

      There’s no reason to touch Mirotic unless you’re planning to win now. He has been playing very well, but his numbers scream regression really hard, and he would be yet another big guy to find minutes for (and not the greatest defender by any means).

      If the Bulls are willing to trade him for Willy, there’s no reason they would ever accept Lee and his 3 year contract back, and there’s no way the trade happens without Lee unless it’s a 3 teamer or something incredibly unlikely (someone taking Noah, or the Knicks involving Kanter for example).

    39. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      I just hate this cliche idea that losing is cancer when no one can sufficiently explain why it is.

      This is my view as a gambler and personal that has competed at a reasonably high level at a different sport.

      1. Not everyone is the same, but when things are going badly, it can impact you negatively psychologically. The longer it lasts, the more you start expecting things to go badly and the worse it becomes. That negative frame of mind can impact your ability to improve at your craft and perform at your highest level. You have to fight it. (The reverse is also true).

      2. Part of winning is coping with the inevitable pressures of competition. Not everyone handles that kind of thing the same way. Some are better than others, but the more you go through it the more seasoned you become and the more capable you will become of making the correct decisions and being able to execute physically at your peak level.

      If a player/team is going to have to go through this seasoning process anyway, you don’t want to spend 2-3 years floundering around and then going through it if you can go through it quickly. All else being equal, if KP was playing with the Cavs/Warriors and had already experienced a serious playoff run and the finals, he would be a better player now. He might even be much better.

    40. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      We could use a Knickerblogger rule where you can’t post a player you want to trade without showing a proposed trade where the salaries work”.

      I agree.

      Beyond that, even if the salaries match, most teams are not stupid. They are not going to take an older guy and give up a young guy of similar quality unless they are desperate for short term upside. It’s easy to say trade Lee, Beasley, O’Quinn etc.. but if you want back a draft pick or young player, you are going to get less back. That’s why I keep stressing patience. We want to WIN trades not just make them. You don’t get better giving up more than you receive. You just get a bunch of bad young players.

    41. iserp

      I would not trade Willy, because I believe he can be better than Kanter (and therefore, we should explore trading Kanter first). But I dont see why you say that trading him for Mirotic is win-now. This is the kind of mentality that I am referring that you miss on possibilities if you focus only on tanking. Mirotic is 26 and has a very friendly contract, that is not a “win-now” player. The real question is, is Mirotic good enough? Because his rookie year was nice, but sucked the following two. He is playing well now, but that might be a mirage because of the small sample size.

    42. TheOakmanCometh

      What part of dumping our assets to be so bad to get a draft pick equals stockpiling assets? Yes, you win a higher draft pick, but you lose on some of the assets you already had. Is it worth dumping Kanter for a pick 2 spots higher?

      Yes it is. 100%. If we could trade Kanter for nothing and guarantee a 2-spot jump in the lottery, we should absolutely take it.

      Keeping Kanter does very little for us. He’s a free agent in 2019, at which point we’d either have to overpay him or let him go for nothing anyway. On his current contract he is a negative asset who’s playing well, which makes him for the moment a neutral asset. Dumping him for nothing is selling pretty high on him. And you’re telling me we get to move up in the draft too? Done.

    43. ClashFan

      I’d trade Willy for a talented young three or PG on a team-friendly contract. Not for a very soon to be 27 year old Mirotic who is shooting threes at way above his career average. The salaries are not even close to matching, anyways.

    44. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      @51

      I can’t really agree.

      1. A POTENTIAL 2 spot jump (the lottery is not guaranteed) in the mid to lower lottery is hardly worth anything statistically.

      2. We don’t know yet whether Kanter will opt in, opt out, what salary we might have to pay to keep him or whether he will be untradeable at the deadline or at a later date at a different salary. We only know what we are paying him now and how he is playing now. I’d rather be playing Willy at his price, but I’m not throwing Kanter away for virtually nothing now unless I get back something good. There are probably teams that want him and the 1 1/2 years is not onerous to take a shot.

    45. TheOakmanCometh

      Folks on this board seem to think that Kanter will opt out this summer. I’m confident that he won’t.

      1. The league is oversaturated with centers. Very few teams need one.
      2. The top of the 2018 draft is oversaturated with big men.
      3. Only 7 teams project to have even $17m in cap space. Kanter’s option next year is for $19m.
      4. It’s a small ball league now. After the crippling contracts to plodding centers like Noah, Mahinmi, Miles Plumlee, Dwight, Biyombo, etc, nobody is going to want to throw $19m AAV at Kanter.

      I guess he could be delusional like Noel and assume that some mystery team wants to pay him big bucks, but any sane adviser should be telling him to opt in.

    46. TheOakmanCometh

      1. A POTENTIAL 2 spot jump (the lottery is not guaranteed) in the mid to lower lottery is hardly worth anything statistically.

      The question wasn’t if I would trade him for a potential 2-spot jump. It was if I would trade him for a 2-spot jump. The answer is yes.

    47. Grocer

      Is Lee’s 3 ball prowess worth the low 20’s pick the Bucks are looking at?

      If the bucks could reasonably expect that to get them to the second round for the next few years, maybe. But they’re looking to improve for 3-4 years down the road, their pick is probably worth more to them.

    48. Brian Cronin

      Is Lee’s 3 ball prowess worth the low 20’s pick the Bucks are looking at?

      Apparently it just isn’t. I wish it were. It’s definitely a logical trade.

    49. JK47

      I do like Mirotic because he’s a “modern” player– he’s a true stretch four and those guys are all the rage these days. He’s a pretty good all-around box score stuffer, and I personally feel like he has underachieved a bit relative to his talent level. I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned out to be a better player than he showed in his second and third seasons. But yeah, at his age and contract he’s not really on our timeline.

    50. Grocer

      The biggest issue is that most every team that can is looking to the future due to Golden State’s dominance. Really cuts into the teams willing to give up picks in a trade. Bad time to burn it down. Lot of tank-etition too.

    51. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      It (the pick) shouldn’t be worth more to the Bucks than Lee. Late first round picks are valuable because you have a reasonable chance of getting a player that out performs his salary. But that player is likely to be worse than Lee ( and paid less). If he eventually gets as good as Lee it will be in several years. I think the Bucks are in win now mode. A quality player who can defend and has an outside shot is more valuable for them than the pick.

    52. Brian Cronin

      It (the pick) shouldn’t be worth more to the Bucks than Lee. Late first round picks are valuable because you have a reasonable chance of getting a player that out performs his salary. But that player is likely to be worse than Lee ( and paid less). If he eventually gets as good as Lee it will be in several years. I think the Bucks are in win now mode. A quality player who can defend and has an outside shot is more valuable for them than the pick.

      It’s not just the pick, though. It’s also paying for the last two years of Lee’s contract, which no team thinks will look pretty.

    53. Grocer

      It’s not just the pick, though. It’s also paying for the last two years of Lee’s contract, which no team thinks will look pretty.

      And their timeline isn’t just the next two years. They’ve got time for a 20 pick to mature.

    54. Hubert

      I think Lance is movable. His defense on Mirotic the other night was superb. A team like Indiana that needs defensive help on the bench could be interested.

      Joe Young is their 3rd string PG. 2nd round pick from 2015 on a rookie deal. Straight up trade for Lance. Something like that.

    55. Brian Cronin

      Is Derrick Williams seriously already out of the NBA? Gotta give it to Lance Thomas, he lasted longer in the NBA than a #2 pick from just six years ago!

    56. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      Milwaukee is 18 and 15, Giannis is great already, and I suspect Kidd will be fired if they don’t make the playoffs this year, but you think they will plan to take three years to get good? You could be right that’s what they should do, But I’m assessing Lee’s value to them based on what I think their management actually wants.

    57. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      NBAdraft.net had his player comparison as Michael Beasley. Very similar in how dominant they were in college and how pisspoor they translated to the pros, despite high-athleticism styles. I will never forget Derrick Williams’s putback slam in the Sweet Sixteen.

    58. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Milwaukee is 18 and 15, Giannis is great already, and I suspect Kidd will be fired if they don’t make the playoffs this year, but you think they will plan to take three years to get good?

      It depends on the coach that replaces Kidd. If it’s another Brad Stevens, they’ll be real good real fast. If it’s another ex-NBAer who’s more about playing “the right way” than playing a modern NBA offense, they’ll never be good.

    59. Brian Cronin

      NBAdraft.net had his player comparison as Michael Beasley. Very similar in how dominant they were in college and how pisspoor they translated to the pros, despite high-athleticism styles. I will never forget Derrick Williams’s putback slam in the Sweet Sixteen.

      Man, if ever there was a thread that we’d like to bronze in retrospect, it would have been the 2011 NBA Draft Thread. We were all really on point in that thread. Like, as a whole. Not like one of those “Oh, see what this guy said back then.” We were all on point on that draft thread. Impressive stuff.

    60. TheOakmanCometh

      Would Portland trade Harkless for Lee? Similar contracts, Harkless is 6.5 years younger, but he’s been bad this year. Lee could fill the Allen Crabbe spot-up role, with better defense. We would take a flyer on a somewhat young guy in Harkless.

    61. 2FOR18, understands math

      “Beyond that, even if the salaries match, most teams are not stupid. They are not going to take an older guy and give up a young guy of similar quality….”

      This is such a frustrating thread of strawman arguments – so many alone in this thread, but this takes the cake. Let’s all resolve to make a better effort in the new year to respond to what people say instead of to the voices in your head.

      I’ll type real slow this time. I’m not saying you’re going to get much for Lee, O’Oquin and the Bease types.
      I’m saying that the act of getting rid of them alone benefits us for the future as such:
      1) it allows us to play the kids so we know what we have in them so that if
      a) the kids play great and we win, great!!!
      or
      b) if the kids suck we know that sooner AND get a higher draft pick.

      Yes, I am saying I’d rather win 20-25 games with the kids playing then win 30-35 with Lee, O’Quinn and the Bease playing, because that does nothing for the future.

    62. Hubert

      We don’t know yet whether Kanter will opt in, opt out, what salary we might have to pay to keep him or whether he will be untradeable at the deadline or at a later date at a different salary. We only know what we are paying him now and how he is playing now.

      I mean… we could figure it out. We should offer him an extension at the most we’re willing to pay, and if he doesn’t want it, trade him.

      Mozgov netted Denver two 1s.

    63. Grocer

      you think they will plan to take three years to get good?

      I think they’re probably making the playoffs as constructed, and I can only assume that their FO is looking at GS and saying ‘we can’t get good enough to beat them.’ And looking at what’s happened to teams that traded their first round picks. I suspect the NBA as whole is going to value picks more than in the past for the next few years.

      Perry and Mills have already said they’re open to trades, and said what they’re looking to get back. The league isn’t exactly knocking the door down.

    64. TheOakmanCometh

      Or if we wanted to get crazy, the following Portland trade works salary-wise:

      Lee + Noah
      for
      Evan Turner + Meyers Leonard + 2018 pick

      Noah and Turner have equivalent contracts and are both garbage. Leonard’s contract is also a big negative value, where Lee’s is neutral, so Portland would give us the pick (likely in the #15-22 range) to compensate.

    65. Knick fan not in NJ at this time

      Grocer, not every franchise thinks that not bearing Golden State makes them a failure. If Milwaukee thought a trade would get them to the finals but they would lose there, no question they would do it.

    66. ptmilo

      Repeat: The Bucks can’t trade their pick.

      The NBA threw unintentional shade at KP in the L2M report of the bulls game. They noted a correct not call when Dunn made marginal contact with KP going for a rebound with 44 seconds left. Recall that this was the marginal contact that send KP to the floor of photog row leading to a big Lauri transition dunk.

    67. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Man, if ever there was a thread that we’d like to bronze in retrospect, it would have been the 2011 NBA Draft Thread. We were all really on point in that thread. Like, as a whole. Not like one of those “Oh, see what this guy said back then.” We were all on point on that draft thread. Impressive stuff.

      Is that the one where I made liberal use of caps lock to express my disgust? I’m so sorry.

      http://www.knickerblogger.net/d-day-2011-who-will-the-knicks-choose/

    68. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      The question wasn’t if I would trade him for a potential 2-spot jump. It was if I would trade him for a 2-spot jump. The answer is yes.

      That question is not posed in realistic terms.

      Whether you trade him or not is dependent on what you get back. If you just dump him to move up 2 spots, my answer is no.

    69. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      IMO, this is a reasonable way to look at Lee.

      1. Lee is a good 2-way player on a fair contract.
      2. Lee is 32 and doesn’t fit with the rebuild timeline.
      3. Lee is likely to be equally productive for the next 2 years given he’s having a peak year this year and players seem to be lasting longer with modern training. At worst, there will mild slippage.

      To give up a young player or draft pick for Lee, you need to be compensated in quality.

      You can give up a pick in the range where teams can generally expect the player to be mildly inferior to Lee along with a trash player on a 1 year contract to match salaries. Then you are taking on extra salary for a couple of years for a 32 year old, but giving up slightly less quality short and long term.

      You can give up a young player on a similar contract that’s not as good as Lee now, but has enough upside to match him without exceeding him. You are gaining short term, but not losing much if anything long term.

      So what is the range of pick where a team can expect to get a player that will eventually be mildly inferior to Lee? Is that good enough?

      Are you willing to take a younger player for Lee if his upside is mildly less than Lee?

      Would you rather just roll with Lee and when his contract is over gain the cap space and move on?

    70. ClashFan

      @71

      I mean… we could figure it out. We should offer him an extension at the most we’re willing to pay, and if he doesn’t want it, trade him.

      Mozgov netted Denver two 1s.

      I’d do backflips if the Knicks could get two first rounders for Kanter.

    71. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      Mozgov netted Denver two 1s.

      That’s the kind of robbery we have to wait for. :-)

    72. d-mar

      That’s the kind of robbery we have to wait for. :-)

      And those kind of things never happen with the Knicks. Remember draft night 2015, when Phil traded TH Jr. for Jerian Grant (19th pick)? We all thought we had finally found a team dumber than us.

      Little did we know we’d end up signing the guy we traded to a $71 million contract.

    73. 2FOR18, understands math

      Omg the Faried draft was in 2011!!??
      Man time flies. I was at that draft in Newark and everyone was hoping Faried would be the pick. I also recall:
      Jan Veselys gf kiss, there being a debate between kyrie and brevin knight, kawhi Leonard’s giant hands being a big topic, and being ok with the shumpert pick.

    74. 2FOR18, understands math

      I would trade Lee for a 3rd round pick just so Dotson could play more and for the cap savings. I don’t care what we get back for him as long it doesn’t hurt the cap.

      Re: Kanter, a month or so ago there was a contingent on here saying he was going to fetch 20 to 25 mil a year in free agency if we didn’t actually fast. I called poppycock on that, for all the reasons someone above stated. He is definitely opting in.
      I have no memory of Kanter being the 3rd pick in the 2011 draft. I must have blocked it out.
      And for those saying a couple of spots in the draft don’t matter, we missed Steph Curry and Kawhi by a total of 3 draft slots.

    75. mase

      Don’t we want guys who are outplaying their contracts, guys like Lee who has been our mvp this season?
      Anyway,Just cuz we value him doesn’t mean everyone else does

    76. Grocer

      I don’t see big demand for a solid aging vet who’s getting paid well, is due for a reversion, and basically has to be forced to shoot threes. For the Bucks specifically he doesn’t fit their timeline and is unlikely to be a difference maker in the playoffs.

    77. hoolahoop

      And for those saying a couple of spots in the draft don’t matter, we missed Steph Curry and Kawhi by a total of 3 draft slots.

      That’s hilarious. I don’t even have to say why.

    78. Brian Cronin

      I would trade Lee for a 3rd round pick just so Dotson could play more and for the cap savings. I don’t care what we get back for him as long it doesn’t hurt the cap.

      Since he’s having his best year ever, you’d think the guy could at least get them a first round pick, though, right? By the way, his numbers have been going down a lot during this recent losing streak. He’s now only barely having his best season (and his best season isn’t even all that impressive, but it’s at least an above average season).

    79. Bruno Almeida

      @81

      And people are confident that the guy who brought Hardaway back will lead the “smart trades, value signings” movement! I’m so confident.

    80. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      NBA G League?Verified account
      @nbagleague
      Following Following @nbagleague
      More
      .@TreyBurke led the @wcknicks to victory tonight with 34 PTS, 4 3PTM & 4 STL! #NBAGLeague

    81. Brian Cronin

      By the way, other teams can just sign Trey Burke if they feel like. The Wolves just lost Jeff Teague for a bit. Why not just bring the guy up?

    82. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      I would trade Lee for a 3rd round pick just so Dotson could play more and for the cap savings. I don’t care what we get back for him as long it doesn’t hurt the cap.

      Dotson may eventually be a good player, but he has done nothing yet to indicate he deserves minutes. There is also ZERO evidence we could fill cap space with a more attractive asset than Lee given management overpaid for Baker and Hardaway when Rose’s contract expired.

      Why don’t we just buy out everyone over 25, go to Ruckers Park, and sign a bunch of 20-22 years old guys and play them?

      The older players are assets that can return more talent than that.

      We have to resist being short sighted enough to make trades just for the sake of making trades. We don’t even know if anyone in NY has tried to trade guys like Lee, O’Quin, and Kanter yet. From today’s reports it sounds like they have made no effort at all to even trade O’Quinn and he’s the most obvious player to move to free up Willy. They are waiting to see what happens between now and the trade deadline. That’s a very rational approach if true. We will know more about our own players and our status. Other teams will know more about their own team needs and may be more willing to make moves. So maybe we can get a deal that makes sense instead of junking everyone over 25.

    83. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      It’s time to bring Trey Burke up and give him a whirl. The only reason for a delay would be if Sessions has a really good relationship with Frank in practice and we don’t know about it.

    84. ess-dog

      I’m all for keeping Kanter because he complements KP so well and his talents are legit/translate well to aging. Lee seems like a good guy, isn’t overpaid, and doesn’t make idiotic mistakes. I think you take a top 20 first for him if offered, but otherwise, just keep the guy around since he hustles and doesn’t mess up. There’s a price for anyone, but there’s no urgency for this team to make trades unless KP gets injured and the tank goes full throttle.

    85. latke

      Bruno Almeida: My argument is that there’s nothing inherently “cancerous” or destructive about losing; what’s destructive and cancerous is bad management, bad players, bad ownership, bad drafting, bad signings.

      Anyone who is anti -tank is either naive or feigning ignorance. Every summer, every team’s front office decides how much they want to lose. Few if any front offices ever say, “let’s do everything we can to maximize our wins this season,” so that means every team is intentionally losing to some degree from the front office perspective. So if you’re anti-tanking, are what is your cutoff point? Isn’t it arbitrary?

      My take is when you aren’t a good team, you fill your roster with players who have the potential to help you fit more talent under the cap than other teams. Sometimes that’s with draft picks. Sometimes free agency with young undrafted players or former 2nd rounders whose teams didn’t have space for them. Over time, your team will begin to win organically, and if you continue to use the tools available to you to add sustainable talent at a discount price, you will be able to stay good for the long term. Like the Spurs since the Duncan tank season, you won’t have to tank.

      But to do otherwise whether it’s by keeping veterans around who only have short term value or by signing or trading for them is to artificially inflate your win total… You win 35 games instead of 28. This increase in wins has no bearing on your long term outlook, and if it becomes a pattern, it will prevent you from ever escaping from mediocrity no matter how lucky you are in the draft. This isn’t just a matter of worsening your pick. It’s a matter of missing out on the opportunity to find players like Kawhi Leonard or Danny Green or Manu or Parker. You trade those seemingly token young pieces or second rounders or waste that end of bench roster spot, and you have one less chance of hitting it big, and if it’s habitual, you miss too many chances for even great luck to save you.

      I mean just look at teams like the Pelicans who lucked into Davis or the Kings with Cousins. Both found more than they had any right to expect from draft picks and yet still haven’t escaped mediocrity. The Pelicans actually did it twice, the first time with Chris Paul.

    86. Brian Cronin

      Bulls, Mavs, Suns and Nets all won. The stealth tank is more of a thing every day.

      The Bulls are just fascinating, aren’t they? They just seem to be doing it with smoke and mirrors. Well, Mirotic, smoke and mirrors, at least.

      Tonight, though, Markkanen and Grant also had it going on. A double-double for Jerian Grant!

      Kris Dunn didn’t even play!

    87. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      The Bull’s veterans (like Lopez and Holiday) are playing hard and trying to win. The kids are benefiting and developing as a result of it.

    88. Stratomatic says "NY basketball is back"

      Every summer, every team’s front office decides how much they want to lose. Few if any front offices ever say, “let’s do everything we can to maximize our wins this season,” so that means every team is intentionally losing to some degree from the front office perspective. So if you’re anti-tanking, are what is your cutoff point?

      Every “competent” management assesses the talent on their team both as individuals and overall and knows approximately where they fit in the pecking order. They know if they are a serious contender, playoff contender, likely lottery candidate, likely early lottery candidate. Their strategy will vary depending on where they expect to finish and how far into their development they are. But they also think about the financial aspects of running the business, keeping players and agents happy (especially veterans), making their franchise attractive to free agents and potential trade candidates, being patient when it comes to trades so that they get good value if they move an attractive player or pick, and building positive culture where people are working hard, trying to get better, and learning to win.

      There may be some purposeful losing at the end of season disguised as injuries. The vets will “get it” and sit out a few games to help some kids that don’t deserve the minutes. But during the year teams are trying to win to the best of their ability even if that ability is limited. It’s part of the development of young players that are learning from vets that have been through it and part of making your franchise more valuable and attractive.

      This is not fantasy sports.

      This is a real business with real people looking out for jobs, careers, and subject to the same ups and downs depending on the environment they work in.

      No one is saying we can’t make some moves to get younger that could cost us a few games this year. They just better ADD LONG TERM VALUE!

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