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Sunday, June 16, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2017.05.30)

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks to hold workout with Columbia’s Petrasek
    (Monday, May 29, 2017 10:10:31 PM)

    The New York Knicks will hold a workout with Columbia forward Luke Petrasek on Tuesday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Jackson confident in Gaines despite turnover in staff
    (Monday, May 29, 2017 2:50:08 PM)

    In an offseason in which the New York Knicks will keep player development coach Dave Bliss and part ways with assistant Josh Longstaff, team president Phil Jackson remains confident in Clarence Gaines Jr., vice president of player personnel.

  • [NYPost] Carmelo Anthony is having a really bad birthday
    (Monday, May 29, 2017 6:45:01 PM)

    This might rate as the most bittersweet birthday for Carmelo Anthony, who turned 33 on Monday with his professional career and personal life in upheaval. On the team’s official Twitter account, the Knicks posted a large Anthony photo with “Happy Birthday Carmelo” wishes, though it is doubtful he got a card from Knicks president Phil…

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    103 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.05.30)

    1. KnickfaninNJ

      Forget Rubio, we have nothing to offer.

      We do have stuff to offer. Once Rose’s contract comes off the books, we have cap room and can accept Rubio without matching his salary in return. I already proposed trading Kuz and a second round pick for him, but if Philly wants outside shooting we could trade them Holiday instead. It just depends on how much Minnesota wants Rubio gone. Since they considered trading him for an expiring contract (Rose), I think something could be worked out.

      Note: reposted for new thread

    2. KnickfaninNJ

      Repost for new thread

      Forget Rubio, we have nothing to offer.

      We do have stuff to offer. Once Rose’s contract comes off the books, we have cap room and can accept Rubio without matching his salary in return. I already proposed trading Kuz and a second round pick for him, but if Philly wants outside shooting we could trade them Holiday instead. It just depends on how much Minnesota wants Rubio gone. Since they considered trading him for an expiring contract (Rose), I think something could be worked out.

    3. bobneptune

      Since everyone has their crazy GM hat on:

      WHG and Melo to Boston for Horford and the #1 pick.

      KP to Sacto for WCS, #5 and #10

      Pick Fultz/Ball, Issac, and BPA at #8 and #10 and have a go at a new interesting franchise!!!!

    4. fmikieo

      After reading Daily Knicks today, I feel confident that the Knicks will find a more suitable (and much younger) lead guard than Rubio.

    5. MSA

      We do have stuff to offer. Once Rose’s contract comes off the books, we have cap room and can accept Rubio without matching his salary in return. I already proposed trading Kuz and a second round pick for him, but if Philly wants outside shooting we could trade them Holiday instead. It just depends on how much Minnesota wants Rubio gone. Since they considered trading him for an expiring contract (Rose), I think something could be worked out.

      The only thing we have to offer are KP, Willy and picks and I don’t think we should trade any of them for Rubio.

      Holiday is a free agent and the Wolves have more cap space than us. They are not a destination for expensive free agents also, so it doesn’t matter.

      Phil apparently wanted to trade KOQ too, but it doesn’t mean that he will do it for free. Rubio may not have a big market out there, but he certainly worth way more than the scrubs we have available.

    6. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @3 Boston wouldn’t do the first trade because Melo and I wouldn’t do the second trade providing that we are communicating productively with KP. The chances of there being a talent as potentially transformational as KP in this draft are very low.

    7. bobneptune

      @3 Boston wouldn’t do the first trade because Melo and I wouldn’t do the second trade providing that we are communicating productively with KP. The chances of there being a talent as potentially transformational as KP in this draft are very low.

      Jonathan Isaac sez hai and 3 for one isn’t insignificant especially when WCS has played better bythe numbers than KP

    8. lavor postell

      The Wolves were very interested in Lee than we did last summer and have been trying to trade Rubio for over 2 years now. A swap of those 2 is something that could very well happen.

    9. Brian Cronin

      The Wolves were very interested in Lee than we did last summer and have been trying to trade Rubio for over 2 years now. A swap of those 2 is something that could very well happen.

      That’d be awesome, so hopefully!

    10. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      I think there’s a reasonably good chance Willy has a better career than Porzingis, so I wouldn’t trade Willy for any package I for which I wouldn’t trade Porzingis.

      Willy is young, cheap, and productive. He is quite literally the least of our problems. Keep him.

      Trading Willy for anything other than a legit star is like finding a $20 bill on the sidewalk and instead of putting the cash in the bank, you walk to the store and buy a $20 scratch-off.

    11. english_knick

      I did more or less exactly that once – found $20 on the sidewalk in vegas. Walked into the nearest casino and put it in red – doubled up to $40. Did the same again – doubled to $80. Third time – flamed out.

      I’ve learned my lesson though. Not trading Willy unless for a total no-brainier offer.

    12. bobneptune

      Trading Willy for anything other than a legit star is like finding a $20 bill on the sidewalk and instead of putting the cash in the bank, you walk to the store and buy a $20 scratch-off.

      You don’t consider the first pick in the draft to be reasonable compensation? WHG is an excellent young player on a beautiful contract and is very valuable. H rebounds very well. He scores efficiently. I like his ability to pass alot. He hasn’t developed range and his free throw shooting is meh. He does kinda suck defensively other than being an outstanding rebounder. He is a negative rim protector and doesn’t move his feet well enough to be a above average help defender.

      I love having him and he should get better in other offensive areas, but I don’t think he has the physical ability to ever be a truly average defender. And that is sort of important in basketball. You can see the best 3 teams in the league play defense very well at playoff time.

    13. djphan

      donovan mitchell is a slightly bigger terry rozier.. their numbers are nearly identical playing in the same system coming out at the same age…

      terry rozier is a decent backup but probably won’t be anymore than that…. there’s no reason to expect that mitchell will be more than that…

    14. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      You don’t consider the first pick in the draft to be reasonable compensation? WHG is an excellent young player on a beautiful contract and is very valuable. H rebounds very well. He scores efficiently. I like his ability to pass alot. He hasn’t developed range and his free throw shooting is meh. He does kinda suck defensively other than being an outstanding rebounder. He is a negative rim protector and doesn’t move his feet well enough to be a above average help defender.

      As I’ve said before, the #1 pick in the draft just means you have the ability to make a bad decision before anyone else can. I would prefer to have Fultz or Ball over Hernangomez, but that’s about it, and even then, there’s a chance that they flop. (I don’t think there’s a serious possibility that Ball flops, but maybe the Lakers hire Byron Scott or Mark Jackson and the whole “modern offense” thing goes to shit.)

      Hernangomez is owed less money over the next three years (with the third being an unguaranteed team option) than Anthony Bennett made in his first season alone.

      There’s a solid chance he plays 2500 minutes this year, especially if KOQ gets traded for some high-upside “athletic specimen” and when (not if) Noah gets injured for the duration of the season. If he maintains his rookie play, you’d be looking at a guy making $1.4M and contributing 6+ Win Shares. That kind of value is what you dream of.

    15. DRed

      There’s obviously no chance Boston makes that trade, but the #1 pick would be reasonable for Willy.

      At the same time, he’s been in the NBA for one year (maybe a bit too soon to give up on him developing more range on his shot) and he hit 72% of his free throws, which is average for a big man. I’d like to see him draw more free throws, but he’s a very good compliment to porzingis (Willy rebounds, Porzingis rim protects), and he’s getting paid less than 5 million bucks for the next three seasons.

    16. Zanzibar

      I think Thibs would do KOQ and Lee for Rubio in a heartbeat. We desperately need a 1 guard. Any 19yo 1 guard we draft is gonna be terrible for the first couple of years and hurt KP and Willy. And I’m not persuaded by the tank argument. Given Phil’s priorities, he should trade Lee and KOQ for Rubio and then trade Melo to Clips for Redick (via S&T) and Rivers. He’d have to be willing to pay a lot to get free agent Redick to agree to a S&T.

    17. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @17 I actually think that Frank Mason could contribute right away.

    18. bobneptune

      As I’ve said before, the #1 pick in the draft just means you have the ability to make a bad decision before anyone else can. I would prefer to have Fultz or Ball over Hernangomez, but that’s about it,

      Then despite the wall of text, you agree! Great…. I thought you did :-)

      As we stipulate, it is the #1 pick in this draft, not Anthony Bennett. I hold WHG in High esteem and I’m not giving him away but he isn’t untouchable by any means and he does have some concrete limitations.

    19. ClashFan

      I once found a $20 very early one morning back in my college days. I don’t gamble, ever, so I just bought food with it. Pizza, I think. Today you can get about 3 fast food meals with it. So, 3 Jerian Grants!
      :-)

      If I were to gamble $ and somehow doubled it, I’d walk away at that point, smiling. I think.

      I’m pretty much with Jowles on Willy. Yeah, I’d take the #1 or #2 pick for him, but I really don’t think I’d take anything later. What’s more, no team is going to offer a top 10 pick for him, anyway. The guy is solid…if he develops a solid mid-range jumper is a very good starter for little $ for the next 3 years.

      He helps ameliorate (somewhat) the bad Noah contract.

      Why even speculate about a Melo to the Celtics deal until they have exhausted any possibility of acquiring Hayward, Griffin, Butler, and George? Maybe then they’ll get kind of desperate. Other than the Clippers or Cleveland, where else would he agree to go? Maybe Chicago if Wade stays there?

    20. bobneptune

      There’s obviously no chance Boston makes that trade, but the #1 pick would be reasonable for Willy

      Really? Do you think Fultz/Ball makes them contenders next year or the year after? They are on a pretty well defined clock with IT. WHG and Melo gives them an awful lot more firepower and WHG plays well and passes well out of the post. I think in the short term it makes them a lot better.

    21. DRed

      Boston isn’t trying to contend. They’re trying to stay good until they’re ready to contend. If they were trying to contend they would have done something at the trade deadline.

    22. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      Really? Do you think Fultz/Ball makes them contenders next year or the year after? They are on a pretty well defined clock with IT.

      They have nearly $30M in cap space and are only in danger of losing Amir Johnson, who is a good player but not a franchise cornerstone. They have the ability to draft a potential superstar at #1 and don’t have to worry about re-signing Thomas until he’s about to turn 30.

      If Stevens is as good a coach as he’s made out to be, Fultz just has to be an average player for them to return to the top 2 positions in the East, with the added bonus of letting Isaiah rest before next playoffs. The Cavs aren’t about to make the leap to a 65-win unbeatable team, the Raptors might be without their best backcourt player as of next season, the Wizards are a non-issue, and the rest of the East is total horseshit garbage with no signs of that trend stopping.

      Of all the teams out there, the Celtics are the ones poised to make the leap to >60 wins. Will they hold a candle to the big 3 in the West? Nah, but if they “hit” on their #1 pick, I could see them dominating the next 5-7 years. Stevens is the next Sloan/Popovich — I suspect he’ll be the Celtics’ coach until the 2030s.

    23. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      And no, Hernangomez isn’t untouchable, but the combination of age, production, duration and salary makes his one of the best contracts league-wide.

      I’m saying that about a Knick. A Knick. Think about it. A Knick.

    24. lavor postell

      Willy had more performances this year where he bullied opposition frontlines than I’ve seen from KP in his 2 seasons. That’s more of a compliment to Willy than a knock on KP.

      The Knicks shouldn’t be giving away young talent to improve their pick. They should be trying to figure out ways to add more young talent to the minimal collection of it that they have now.

    25. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Beyond Fox, who is now a real threat to go top 3-5, Donovan Mitchell has probably improved his stock the most. Likely a mid-lottery pick now— Keith Smith (@KeithSmithNBA) May 29, 2017

    26. stratomatic

      I think we should get used to the idea that LA is the only possible destination for Melo. If you read Ainge’s comments after the season ended it’s pretty obvious he’s going after players like Butler, Hayward, and George. If he doesn’t get them, he’s not moving down the ranks looking for the next best player and making a deal.

      If Phil is determined to move Melo, then we are getting back Reddick (who he is said to like) or he won’t do the deal.

      If we do the deal, then it will either be part of a 3 way deal where we move Reddick or after the Melo deal we are going to trade Lee.

      A LOT of teams would like to have Lee, imo, including Minny. Zach LaVine is a terrific athlete and he may eventually become a very good player, but he’s not any good defensively and can play some PG alongside Lee.

    27. ptmilo

      I think you guys are overrating Willy a little. He had a great rookie year, but I wonder if the aging curve for guys with his basic profile (a big with limited shooting, athleticism and defense) isn’t somewhat flatter than that of a typical player. He’s still a great asset on that contract but I’d definitely trade him for the third pick, especially since we should probably be a little volatility seeking.

    28. stratomatic

      I think you guys are overrating Willy a little. He had a great rookie year, but I wonder if the aging curve for guys with his basic profile (a big with limited shooting, athleticism and defense) isn’t somewhat flatter than that of a typical player.

      I think he’s good, but to get to the next level he’s going to have to expand his offensive game to beyond some nifty post moves. If that’s all he’s got, they are going to shut him down next year now that they’ve seen more of him.

      I see him as a good fit with KP because he rebounds well and plays well inside, but I see him as a very bad fit with KP defensively because neither of them can guard the fast stretch PFs and if you put KP on them, WH is not a rim protector.

    29. DRed

      I think there are some chains of events that would make Miami a good destination for Melo

    30. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @35 Possibly if Pat Riley is suffering from some form of dementia?

    31. stratomatic

      I think there are some chains of events that would make Miami a good destination for Melo

      At 33, I suspect the only teams willing to deal for him will be teams that think they are 1 scorer away from a championship and those run by incompetent GMs. The Clippers may qualify on both counts. I don’t see Riley among the GMs that thinks Melo is a superstar and I don’t think he thinks Miami is a player away.

      Maybe if we are willing to take back “nothing” we can give him away for expiring contracts.

    32. fmikieo

      @25
      That makes perfect sense. Besides, they’re not beating either the Cavs or Warriors anytime soon either, even with either of Melo, Butler, Hayward or George. Who’s to say that next year’s Nets pick isn’t #1? The C’s have the chance to add 2 stars, depending on how they draft.

      And never mind the other picks and stashed players they’ve got control over… Needless to say, they’re in a good place.

    33. ptmilo

      I think there are some chains of events that would make Miami a good destination for Melo

      Yes:
      1.Melo plays out contract in NY.
      2.Melo retires.

    34. geo

      I think Thibs would do KOQ and Lee for Rubio in a heartbeat. We desperately need a 1 guard. Any 19yo 1 guard we draft is gonna be terrible for the first couple of years and hurt KP and Willy.

      man, that would be a perfect scenario for us…

      not sure if everyone has already given their pick for the finals – just cuz i’m absolutely terrible at this: i’ll guess the warriors in five…

    35. swiftandabundant

      There is absolutely no reason to trade KP or Willie H unless an absolute no brainer of a deal comes along. Trade Willie just to move up in the draft a bit or to get another pick in the first round? No thanks.

      Look KP and Willie H plus our #8 pick is a solid young core to start with. We’re adding most likely a top 10 pick to that core next year. Throw in our second round picks, Baker, possibly NDour and Randle. We might have a youth movement before we know it. We’re finally at a place where we’re gonna add young talent every year just through the draft. Patience is the key right now. If you can trade KQ and/or Lee for picks or a Rubio type veteran PG who is still young, you do it.

      The number one goal besides drafting well is trading Melo (for something decent…ie, some picks). If nothing decent for Melo comes along then you let him play this year. Another season like this one and Melo could opt out next year and go for a 3 year contract with a good team somewhere else. If Phil is worried Melo’s gonna win us too many games next year or hurt development, tell Horns to give him a more limited role. By this time next year Melo could be opting out and we’ll have that cap space and our pick next year. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.

    36. stratomatic

      I think Thibs would do KOQ and Lee for Rubio in a heartbeat. We desperately need a 1 guard. Any 19yo 1 guard we draft is gonna be terrible for the first couple of years and hurt KP and Willy. And I’m not persuaded by the tank argument. Given Phil’s priorities, he should trade Lee and KOQ for Rubio and then trade Melo to Clips for Redick (via S&T) and Rivers. He’d have to be willing to pay a lot to get free agent Redick to agree to a S&T.

      I pretty much agree with this.

      I’m not enamored with the idea of having Reddick for a long time (maybe 3 years at most) at a price that doesn’t make sense. So I would way rather have some kind of 3 team deal to move Melo to LA and get us back something we want, but I definitely agree that we need a legit starting PG. Rubio is the most likely candidate given that we were already close to deal. We could easily still draft a PG and simply play him behind Rubio (also play him with Rubio if it’s Frank) for a few years until we see how everything shakes out.

    37. Frank

      A few thoughts –

      1) If we trade Lee for Rubio I would call that one of the biggest cases of retroactive GM malpractice I’ve seen. You could have traded an expiring Derrick Rose for Ricky Rubio, and now you trade an actual real asset for him instead? Lee for Rubio in a vacuum is fine, but it would absolutely show that our FO had zero idea what they were doing last trade deadline.

      2) I may have said this a few days ago, but I think this noise coming out of the West that CP3 is considering the Spurs is actually noise from CP3 himself, trying to pressure the Clippers to do what it takes to get Melo. in order for him not to lose ~$50MM+, the Spurs would probably have to trade Aldridge or Danny Green and renounce all their FAs, in which case are they actually better than the Clips would be with Melo? And then he’d have to leave the good life in Los Angeles for San Antonio? Yes there are other possibilities like somehow trading Pau for zero salary (ie. many draft picks), or convincing Pau to opt out, etc., or trading Tony Parker, but none of those seem like Spurs-like things to do.

      3) Great article from ESPN about the rise/importance of the pull-up 3. Makes you want Ntilikina (who apparently is amazing at pull-up J’s) or Malik Monk.

    38. Frank

      From Marc Stein’s twitter:

      NBA Draft scuttle: Hearing Detroit is open to discussing trades for its No. 12 overall pick in hopes of acquiring more of a win-now veteran.

      They need shooting badly. Would they want Courtney Lee? Seems strange that there has been so much noise about the Knicks working out Justin Jackson, who seems to be a mid-late 1st round guy…

    39. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      NBA Draft scuttle: Hearing Detroit is open to discussing trades for its No. 12 overall pick in hopes of acquiring more of a win-now veteran.

      Detroit’s FO is unbelievably incompetent. First the Tobias Harris trade/extend, then the Marjanovic signing (good) with his 293 minutes played (bad), and now they’re in “win-now” mode with the league’s 21st SRS with no less than $88M committed in cap space until 2019-20? Putrid.

      Browsing their draft history, here’s a factoid:

      Since 2006, they have drafted twenty-six players. Of those players, 24 have played >100 MP in the NBA. Of those players, only two have a positive BPM.

      Okay, maybe the “trade our picks” strategy will be good for them…

    40. heavencent35

      I’m against the lee koq for Rubio and Melo for reddick, rivers.
      I think that the better trade is Melo for deng and Russel.
      We can get better players with koq. While lee could be a starter for the rest of his contract.

    41. heavencent35

      Melo to Miami?
      Pat Riley didn’t even sign they’re hero wade. Why would they pay Melo plus give up assets for him. I think that’s not logical for pat Riley.

    42. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      Spoelstra and Riley are smart. They’re not taking Melo unless the Knicks are paying half his salary.

    43. stratomatic

      1) If we trade Lee for Rubio I would call that one of the biggest cases of retroactive GM malpractice I’ve seen. You could have traded an expiring Derrick Rose for Ricky Rubio, and now you trade an actual real asset for him instead? Lee for Rubio in a vacuum is fine, but it would absolutely show that our FO had zero idea what they were doing last trade deadline.

      That’s the way I used to think about it, but it’s not really accurate.

      If you trade Rose, you put Rubio into some of the cap space for next year occupied by Rose right now.

      If you trade Lee, you give up a current asset (a fairly valued one at that). but you also have more cap space to work with when Rose comes off the books for next year.

      So depending on how you value cap space (and what you do with it) it’s not necessarily a bad move.

      Either way you have Rubio, but in one case you have Lee and in another you have space.

      Several of Phil’s deals (that almost everyone else hated) were similar. He sometimes gives away assets for what appears to be nothing, but he does get something back. He gets back cap space quicker, which he then uses for other players. The key is not using it badly like he did with Noah, but in other cases it has been fine. I don’t miss JR Smith. I like Lee.

    44. stratomatic

      Since 2006, they have drafted twenty-six players. Of those players, 24 have played >100 MP in the NBA. Of those players, only two have a positive BPM.

      This is not fair. The recent deals are on Stan, but the draft picks from long ago are not.

    45. ClashFan

      Lee to Detroit for the #12 pick? Where do I sign up for that? I guess the Knicks wold have to take someone back to match up the salaries.

    46. Cock Jowles, A Proven Scorer Who Is Worth All of His Max Contract

      This is not fair. The recent deals are on Stan, but the draft picks from long ago are not.

      I wasn’t saying it was all Stan’s fault, but he is most certainly the one letting Boban ride the pine when he is easily the most dominant paint player on their roster, if not the East. Dude has a career WS48 of .309 in 800 minutes. Sign him to a $21M deal and then bench him for being a poor defender against stretch 5s? I mean, SVG himself has admitted that he probably made an error in refusing to play Boban.

      Yet again, 293 minutes without any serious injuries reported. It’s inexplicable and indefensible. They are a terribly-managed franchise.

    47. Frank

      Would you consider Lee for Reggie Jackson, Stanley Johnson, and the 12th pick?

      why don’t we ask for Drummond too?

    48. ClashFan

      @55 and 56. The rumor is they want a vet to help “win now.” They don’t want to gut their team. Assuming there is some truth to this, the Knicks would have to take back junk to get the pick, not starters or solid rotation guys.

      I’d happily take back Johnson as part of that, as he’s still young. However, why would they give up on him?

    49. DRed

      If you’re Miami and you think Melo is opting out next year, and you can’t get a marquee free agent, why not trade us Josh McRoberts and Wayne Ellington for a year of Melo?

    50. DRed

      Because Melo sucks, it would save money, and it removes the chance he wouldn’t opt out

    51. ClashFan

      Theoretically, if Miami were interested in Melo, I’d assume that they are “going for it” next year. I can’t see them doing that, but if they do… offer them Melo and OQ for some garbage contracts (McRoberts and Ellington are fine), but I want their #1 pick this year or maybe Winslow in addition.

    52. DRed

      Which you might not get-my point is that LA might not be the only team interested in Melo that Melo might want to go to. Miami can add Melo to a team that could have easily gone to the ECF this season without sacrificing much. Maybe they’d be interested. That’s all I’m saying.

    53. Jack Bauer

      Call me crazy if you must, but I’d rather have Melo next year than Josh McRoberts and Wayne Ellington. Of course these Miami trade scenarios are a moot point unless Riley suddenly has a severe LSD flashback and just HAS to have Melo now.

    54. Z-man

      I don’t agree with Reub on much, but I’d be fine with picking Frank Mason III at #44 if he’s available. Hard-nosed, smart, undersized guys like that can play on my team any time. In my fantasy world I’d like to pick Dennis Smith Jr. but if he’s not available I’d rather go with BPA regardless of position (i.e. not Frank Ntilikina) and then get a PG with #44.

    55. Z-man

      I wouldn’t stress too much about the spilt milk that is Melo. He will either be gone, be benched, be injured, be waived, or play well and within the system. Any of those options are fine with me except waiving him.

    56. mase

      Dsjr great player if you don’t value defense… in other words knicks fans rejoice and bitch later if he’s the pick

    57. ptmilo

      If you’re Miami and you think Melo is opting out next year, and you can’t get a marquee free agent, why not trade us Josh McRoberts and Wayne Ellington for a year of Melo?

      Because Riley knows that even if Melo seems like he will opt out, that might well change between now and then. And the upside from having Melo for a team like Miami is too small to assume that downside.

    58. dtrickey

      Sign him to a $21M deal and then bench him for being a poor defender against stretch 5s? I mean, SVG himself has admitted that he probably made an error in refusing to play Boban.

      They did something similar with Baynes. Signed him to a decent sized contract, then gave him a pretty inconsistent role in the rotation. Obviously not as good as Boban, but there is a definite theme.

      No way Riley does a deal for Melo. I think Riley (and everyone for that matter) know the Heat aren’t a Melo away from contending. At this stage I am thinking Melo stays for now. Upside of that is he gets back to some okay form and bumps up his trade value. Then come trade deadline, a fringe contender might be desperate enough to pull the trigger for him. Who knows?

    59. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @66 Thanks for that. Monte Morris seems to look pretty good there too.

    60. lavor postell

      Melo at the 4 in Miami next to Whiteside with a bunch of those active wings that Riley breeds down their and Dragic could be a fun team in the East for the next couple of years. Riley never wants to rebuild and traded 2 first round picks for Dragic on an expiring contract. If he could get Melo for McBob, Ellington and Tyler Johnson I think he’d do it.

      It also doesn’t alter their cap flex all that much given the jump in TJ’s contract coming in 2017/18.

    61. TheOakmanCometh

      People here are severely overrating Willy. Not a single team would trade a Top 5 pick in this year’s draft for him, and trading the #1 for him is LOL. He’s a shaky defensive center with very limited shooting range in a league where the value of traditional bigs is plummeting. There are 20 teams looking to sell centers, and only a couple of buyers.

      He was a pleasant surprise last year and a great value contract. But he might not even be a starting caliber player over that contract. Lonzo Ball and Josh Jackson have star potential at important positions and will be on rookie contracts that are only marginally more expensive than Willy.

      If Orlando offered us the #6 pick for Willy I would sign the trade agreement before they finished their sentence. And I LIKE Willy.

    62. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Willy outperformed all but 10 centers playing >20MPG in WS/48 this year

      he’s already a starting caliber center. When your rookie player is starting caliber in his first year, that bodes very well for his future. I’d put good money on 3/5 of the top 5 picks this year posting below .100 WS/48 their first year.

      You can argue about upside but as it stands Willy is productive enough to start for the majority of teams in the NBA. He’s shown flashes of range all year and is an able passer. That still has a lot of value coming from the center position.

    63. DRed

      The heat, without Melo, and with a fuckload of injuries were a few bounces here and there from contending this season. They very possibly could have beaten Boston and Washington. Melo, Whiteside and Dragic, and a bunch of shooters is a proven formula if you think Melo has anything left (I’m skeptical, but it also wouldn’t shock me to learn Melo wasn’t going all out last season). And if you get a healthy, productive Winslow? Baby you got a stew going. NBA teams are all delusional optimists. Let me get 20 minutes on the phone with Riles.

    64. lavor postell

      You can argue about upside but as it stands Willy is productive enough to start for the majority of teams in the NBA. He’s shown flashes of range all year and is an able passer. That still has a lot of value coming from the center position.

      This.

      Also Willy’s only 22 and has some upside himself.

    65. stratomatic

      All this speculation and I bet the Knicks don’t trade Melo, don’t trade up or down in the draft, don’t add another 1st round pick via a trade, and go into next year with basically the same team, plus some 19 year old that’s several years away from starting, a couple of 2nd tier free agents to help from the bench, and Baker or Randle as the starting PG. lol

    66. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      The thing about Winslow is that I think it’s almost impossible to maintain such an eye-gougingly awful TS% so I’m somewhat bullish on him.

    67. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @80 Get me both Franks and a good Euro stash and I’ll be happy.

    68. DRed

      Winslow was pretty good as a rookie, even though he couldn’t score efficiently, but holy shit was he bad last year. I’d love if Miami gave up on him, but I think they realize he’s too young.

    69. ptmilo

      I thought Winslow had a chance to be a star and he was just too bad for words last year, so you should ignore me. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone aim their perimeter shot more than he did. It was like he was an archer. But I think it’s too early to give up on him. I would jump at the chance to buy low on Winslow, even now.

    70. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Here’s an updated draft model from Andrew Johnson (countingbaskets) on twitter. some strange stuff in here, like TJ Leaf being really high, but i like posting these nonetheless at they trickle in. Note that Justin Jackson is low on the list but has one of the highest percentage chances of being a role player (60%), and Frank N has the second highest at 52%. Both have low probabilities of being top 50 material, at least per this model. Low ceiling, solid floor.

      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19SYO7HtV0UqWvCzD1ZuwaYn8a_x6iktRYwjFL20ox44/edit#gid=1329120024

    71. nosboss

      I like WHG but no way is he worth a lottery pick straight up, and lee is not getting you Jackson, Johnson and the 12th

    72. fmikieo

      @80

      All this speculation and I bet the Knicks don’t trade Melo, don’t trade up or down in the draft, don’t add another 1st round pick via a trade, and go into next year with basically the same team, plus some 19 year old that’s several years away from starting, a couple of 2nd tier free agents to help from the bench, and Baker or Randle as the starting PG. lol

      I’d be okay with all that happening. That’s cause I think the young guys already on the roster are gonna get a lot better. In addition, I think they’ll get great value out of the second round and undrafted FA.

    73. djphan

      winslow played 18 games and he probably was hurt… meanwhile he improved his assist rate, steal rate and lowered his turnovers all while increasing his usage… if his shot was anywhere near respectable he probably would’ve been a decent starter…

      that’s the big question but i think he can figure it out… i think he just needs a position change to sg…

    74. DRed

      I think Winslow should play PF mostly until he can hit a shot from more than 4′ from the hoop.

    75. ClashFan

      Yeah, supposedly Winslow was hurt even before the season ending injury. He’s for sure a very good defender. Can he shoot, though? I’d try to get him if they were looking to sell, but I doubt they are.

      Willy is a good mid-range jumper away from being not just a solid starting C, but a very good one. He’ll probably never be a good rim protector. If he had the physical talent for that, he’d have been a 1st round pick.

    76. DRed

      I mean, 2 years ago Winslow was starting playoff games as a center after Whiteside got hurt.

    77. Totes McGoats

      Guys..Winslow is almost 6’5″ and can’t shoot. I said this when he came out of college. He’s a shorter MKG..but at least MKG can dribble and shoots it better. Having said that, I wouldn’t mind him on this Knicks roster because he’s young enough to get better. His floor may be Bruce Bowen, and I’m ok with that. But he needs ballhandling & shooting boot camp. BAD. Unless another draft pick is involved, I wouldn’t trade Melo for him. Lance and Kuz, sure..but no Melo. Melo has too much value to this team to trade him for a perimeter player who can’t shoot.

    78. Totes McGoats

      How about Lance & Kuz for Winslow & McBob? Maybe Phil can squeeze a 2nd out of Riley as well.

    79. KnickfaninNJ

      All this speculation and I bet the Knicks don’t trade Melo, don’t trade up or down in the draft, don’t add another 1st round pick via a trade, and go into next year with basically the same team, plus some 19 year old that’s several years away from starting, a couple of 2nd tier free agents to help from the bench, and Baker or Randle as the starting PG. lol

      Agreed, but it’s fun to speculate. I am really hoping this is finally an off season where Phil really turns the corner as GM, but I am not holding my breath.

    80. ess-dog

      My prediction for next year’s starters:

      PG – Tyreke Evans
      SG – Courtney Lee
      SF – Melo
      PF – KP
      C – Willie Hernangomez

      Bench: Frank Ntilinika, O’Quinn, Randle, Deonte Burton, Noah (eventually), and some other crap.

      Low expectations.

    81. djphan

      That andrew johnson model is interesting… he used to have this paws model which wasnt half bad but looks like be incorporated weilands benchmarking…

      i like it altho i think the models are overrating ball based on his 2p % and bradley is not the 4th best guy in tbe draft… i like leaf tho altho maybe not that high… his numbers actually resembles kevin loves a bit….

    82. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      It’s definitely overrating Bradley, who is underrated but not that underrated.

      I can imagine Leaf being good but not #3 in the draft good.

      Every model I’ve seen (only like two or three) is decidedly low on Josh Jackson–low as in more like eighth pick rather than third.

      Balls probably overrated by the models insofar as he’s clearly not going to shoot 68% from two or whatever bonkers number he cherry picked in college but I’m definitely very high on him despite that. I know you disagree on that score tho.

    83. Z-man

      It will be interesting to see whether GMs take models like this into account. If both Collins’ move up, that’s a sign that they did.

    84. Nick C.

      Here’s an updated draft model from Andrew Johnson (countingbaskets) on twitter. some strange stuff in here, like TJ Leaf being really high, but i like posting these nonetheless at they trickle in. Note that Justin Jackson is low on the list but has one of the highest percentage chances of being a role player (60%), and Frank N has the second highest at 52%. Both have low probabilities of being top 50 material, at least per this model. Low ceiling, solid floor.

      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19SYO7HtV0UqWvCzD1ZuwaYn8a_x6iktRYwjFL20ox44/edit#gid=1329120024

      Is there somewhere where he explains how he came up with these numbers and what they mean beyond the obvious percentages top 50, starter etc at the end. Without that it’s just gibberish from a dude with a spreadsheet.

    85. Nick C.

      I found that explanations are partially found by hovering or clicking the letters at the tops of columns. My interpretation is it is re-booting something from NBADraft.net. Fox comes out pretty low.

    86. bobneptune

      Balls probably overrated by the models insofar as he’s clearly not going to shoot 68% from two or whatever bonkers number he cherry picked in college but I’m definitely very high on him despite that. I know you disagree on that score tho.

      While I agree he likely isn’t shooting 68% in a CYO league, shooting >90% of your shots at the rim and behind the arc (when you make a good %) isn’t ‘cherry picking’ it is ideal shot selection

    87. Z-man

      I’m not arguing that Phil has been good. He hasn’t. I’m just pointing out that whatever his sins, the franchise is in much better shape looking 3 years into the future than it was when Isiah, or Donnie, or Glen ended their tenures. He made some terrible mistakes…most notably the Melo deal…but none of the other deals were nearly as consequential (negatively) as some of the ones made by his predecessors.

      The Chandler deal: probably should have waited and gotten back more/better value. But Chandler was an expiring, coming off an horrific playoff performance, and injury prone. If Chandler goes down with a bad knee for 3 months, we’d have gotten nothing back. Dalambert and Calderon were both plus players the previous year. He got two 2nds and whiffed on guys Jokic, Grant and Clarkson.

      The Rose deal: not good, but freed up cap space for this year. Lopez has since been replaced by Hernangomez. Grant has been so-so, generously. We attained a 2nd rounder and rented Holiday for a year.

      The Noah deal: inexplicably dumb. Beyond hoping that he recovers enough to be a 10-15mpg bench/practice player, there’s no excuse for this.

      But there is a path ahead and with a few decent breaks, we could be at least stable in 3 years. That’s more than could be said since probably the Ewing trade, or at least pre-Melo.

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