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Friday, March 22, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2017.03.31)

  • [ESPN] Friday’s Knicks News: Courtney Lee: ‘Everything just didn’t work out’
    (Friday, March 31, 2017 4:59:04 AM)

    Friday’s Knicks News: Courtney Lee: ‘Everything just didn’t work out’

  • [ESPN] Pippen: Phil’s tenure with Knicks should end
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 8:11:26 PM)

    Pippen: Phil’s tenure with Knicks should end

  • [SNY Knicks] Pippen blames old coach Jackson for Knicks poor season
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 6:45:00 PM)

    Hall of Famer Scottie Pippen believes Phil Jackson is to blame for the Knicks’ awful season. The former Chicago Bull also offered his support for Carmelo Anthony, and said he thinks it’s time for Jackson to move on from the Knicks.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis: Knicks did it wrong from the start
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:40:00 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis offered a blunt assessment of the Knicks’ season on Thursday, saying the team “didn’t do it from the beginning the right way.”

  • [SNY Knicks] Eliminated from playoff contention, Knicks look toward future
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 4:00:25 PM)

    The Knicks were mathematically eliminated from the playoffs during Wednesday night’s loss to the Heat, making this the fourth consecutive season where New York will not reach the postseason.

  • [NY Newsday] Scottie Pippen blames Phil Jackson for Knicks’ failures, praises Carmelo Anthony
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:31:55 PM)

    MIAMI — Scottie Pippen blamed his former coach, Phil Jackson, for the Knicks’ failure to make the playoffs again and believes he shouldn’t be back as team president.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ early warning signs proved to be true after great preseason expectations
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:22:00 PM)

    MIAMI — The Knicks will honor their 1999 team Sunday and its memorable run to the NBA Finals. This season’s team will be remembered for not living up to lofty expectations.

  • [NYDN] No Bull! Pippen blames Phil Jackson for Knicks awful season
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:32:35 PM)

    So much for triangle solidarity: Even Scottie Pippen thinks his former coach has done a poor job as an executive and should leave New York.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo is too young to be mentor and too old for tanking Knicks
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:32:07 PM)

    The harsh reality facing Carmelo Anthony is that there’s nothing here for him anymore.

  • [NYDN] Sore knee keeps Derrick Rose out of Knicks’ lineup vs. Heat
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 12:17:33 PM)

    The aches and pains continue for Derrick Rose.

  • [NYPost] One Knick frustrated the ‘most talented’ team he’s played on was a bust
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:32:15 PM)

    As a rookie in 2008-09, Courtney Lee went to The Finals with the Magic who lost in five games to the Lakers coached by Phil Jackson. That was frustrating. But not as frustrating as falling short of the 2016-17 playoffs with the “most talented” team Lee has been a part of, a Knicks team assembled…

  • [NYPost] Scottie Pippen: Phil Jackson is to blame for Knicks’ mess
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 4:37:05 PM)

    Add one more Hall of Famer who came to the support of Carmelo Anthony. But this one, Scottie Pippen, puts the blame for the Knicks woes at the feet of his former Bulls championship coach, Phil Jackson, and feels his old boss should get out of New York. “I’m going to have to go at…

  • [NYPost] ‘Didn’t do it right’ from onset: Is Porzingis blaming Hornacek?
    (Thursday, March 30, 2017 4:13:12 PM)

    A word that surfaced a lot in recent Knicks conversations was “consistency” — as in the lack of consistency helped caused the team to stink for much of the season. And to Kristaps Porzingis there also was a lack of fundamentals, both offensively and defensively. Whether Porzingis was faulting the coaching staff or not, only…

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    115 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.03.31)

    1. geehee

      Does Fox have the ability to develop a reliable jumper or 3pt shot? Apparently he was a solid shooter in high school. So what happened in college? He could very well be the best pick in the draft if he figures out the jump shot – I think his form is ok – 74% FT shooter in college (better than Rose – not the best example I know). I personally don’t think he will (but Im trying to be optimistic) and given how much longer, stronger and faster the NBA players are, it could prove very difficult. For this same reason, I don’t think Tatum’s game will pan out well in the NBA either.

    2. Brian Cronin

      Fox could be a good player in the NBA without ever developing an outside shot. If he does, then yes, he’s a star, but even if he doesn’t, he’d be a useful player due to his defense, his size, speed and his court vision. Is a “useful player” what you want with the #4 pick? Probably not, but man, the possibility that his shot develops is probably too tantalizing to pass up.

    3. Z-man

      I’ve been through the “if he develops an outside shot” rodeo too many times to buy into it. Most recently, for us, it was Shump. Decent form, good FT shooter, yadayadayada. Never really got better until he played with LeBron. Fox is not a “great” defender like Kawhi, or a great passer or rebounder. What’s his floor, Patrick Beverley? Ramon Sessions? Not good.

    4. Philmelo

      Fox could be a good player in the NBA without ever developing an outside shot.

      Look at the best offenses in the game today. Do any of them have backcourts with guards who cannot shoot an effective 3 point field goal? I can’t find one in the top 10.

    5. Brian Cronin

      What’s his floor, Patrick Beverley? Ramon Sessions? Not good.

      Patrick Beverley sounds about right, and that’s not a bad floor. Heck, Beverley is currently in the starting backcourt for the second best offense in the NBA. But certainly, Patrick Beverley with the #4 pick is a disappointment, so if that’s all Fox becomes, then yes, that’d be disappointing. Fox at #4 certainly carries risk with him.

    6. Philmelo

      Kevin O’Connor on Frank Ntilikina in a Podcast with Bill Simmons:

      “I love Frank, I do not think he’ll be in the top 5 of the Draft, but I like him a lot, in many ways if he played in NCAA, say Kentucky instead of De ‘Aaron Fox, we would speak of him as a possible top 5. He measures 1.96 m, has extremely long arms, a lot of intelligence of play … He does a lot of things very well. A good shooter, but he is already ahead of Fox in this field. I would say that the talent of a top 5 but that most teams will not dare to take the risk of dragging it so high. Its possible, but unlikely in my opinion.”

    7. Nick C.

      Look at the best offenses in the game today. Do any of them have backcourts with guards who cannot shoot an effective 3 point field goal? I can’t find one in the top 10.

      I see Denver tied for 5. Their PG is Mudiay , who has a .311 % from 3. Giannis is worse if you classify him as Milwaukee’s PG. They are also on the list. You could counter “but Mudiay sux” “Giannis is a freak” “I said guards”. I don’t see why lack of a 3 point shot as a freshman in college is a harbinger of doom.

    8. DS

      I assume everyone here dislikes Monk as prospect. I’m not skeptical of your opinions, just curious: what exactly is the problem?

    9. Brian Cronin

      I assume everyone here dislikes Monk as prospect. I’m not skeptical of your opinions, just curious: what exactly is the problem?

      It’s not that Monk will be bad. Rather, he looks like he will be a clear NBA-level player. He just doesn’t look like he’ll become a star player in the NBA, and thus would be a disappointing result for a high draft pick. You’d like to have a chance at a star if you’re drafting in the top five/six. That’s one of the reasons that this draft is so impressive. A guy like Monk would be a disappointment and yet he’s clearly going to be a rotation player in the NBA, which is not something that you normally can say about players in the draft past the first five-six picks. Marquese Chriss went #8 last year and it’s not even clear that he’s a good player period (we had a recent draft where Dion Waiters was picked fourth!!).

    10. Accidentank 2017

      Frank Ntilikina is an off guard currently. He has the ability to pass but he currently doesn’t have a good enough handle to consistently create offense for himself or others. That said, he also understands spacing on offense and is looking to make the right play rather than to just go for his. Defensively he’s sound but he likes to let those Euro guards get a step on him and trail the play. That simply isn’t gonna work in the NBA. No prospect is perfect and I expect he will get better, but that kid is a 2 guard. He reminds me a lot of Nic Batum except shorter.

    11. Accidentank 2017

      Malik Monk doesn’t seem to bring enough to the table to be much more than Lou Williams in the NBA. He’s only good at scoring.

    12. djphan

      i think monk can be something like an oj mayo or cj mccollum on the top end… but he’s undersized for the 2 which means and the defensive #s suggest that he’s not as athletic as he seems…. i think he’s destined to be a super 6th man type….

    13. lavor postell

      Monk’s numbers compare pretty favorably to Booker’s in college. In whatever tape of his I’ve been able o find on the interwebs I think he has more off the bounce game than he showed at Kentucky where he was kind of the only guy that could space the floor so he had to play off the ball a lot. I also think this is just something inherent in how Calipari uses 2 guards in his system as Booker didn’t handle the ball very well either. Booker isn’t tearing it up in the league overall, but he’s shown enough offensive game in being able to create his shot and off the dribble for others than he ever did at UK so that’s something to consider. Monk is far more athletic than Booker as well and maybe the best transition finisher available in this draft.

      My concerns with Monk are that he’s a bad rebounding guard and with KP a long term franchise cornerstone, having 2 net negative rebounders at their position is something to overcome. He also doesn’t have much in the way of impressive defensive metrics, which I think is less about effort and more about his relatively average wingspan and below average size for a 2 guard. Those deficits aren’t going to get any better in the NBA.

      Offensively I think he has a Beal type ceiling, but his other contributions on the floor may negate a lot of that. I really enjoy his game especially because he moves well off the ball to create open shots for himself, something we struggle with, but it’d be really impossible for me to take him in the top 6 as much as I like the things he brings to the table that he does well.

    14. Hugo Busto

      I liked the Late night Wiggins discussion from other thread.

      People get very upset when it’s explained that Rubio is a flawed player

    15. swiftandabundant

      Worrying about Fox’s shooting is kind of silly. Of course he has a flaw in his game. That is why he’s not the clear number one pick. But we are most likely not getting the clear number one pick and even then the number one pick is never guaranteed to be a star player.

      All the top prospects have flaws. Fox’s is his lack of outside shooting. But I’ll say this. I’d rather have to try and improve that than improve a player’s court vision, unselfishness or defense. Court vision a player either has or doesn’t have. Fox seems to have it. He’s not otherworldly Chris Paul or Jason Kidd like with his passing. But he seems to know how to get the ball the guy’s in their spots and run the pick and roll, do lobs, etc. And he seems unselfish and loves to play defense. Those are things that are MUCH harder to correct than shooting.

      Even if we trade Melo, don’t resign Rose and pick well with our first round pick, the Knicks will be several years away from competing. So why fret over his shooting. Whoever we draft we’re gonna have to develop that player and our other players or else we’re going nowhere.

    16. kevin5318

      @16 Unless Frank really surprises in workouts then he should be a worst case scenario pick( we drop to 8th somehow).

      I’m leaning towards Fox over Ball but I’d be ecstatic with either.

    17. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      People get very upset when it’s explained that Rubio is a flawed player

      But he’s still also a very, very good one because of the things he does well. He was good before he became a decent shooter.

      Wiggins is flawed in many more ways. He is not even close to the player that Rubio is, but of course, since he was a #1 overall pick, people will point to “upside” until the day he retires. Kwame Brown played for 12 seasons. Bargnani, 10. Darko, 9. NBA coaches have nothing if not hubris.

    18. DRed

      I think you take Ball easily. He shot better, passed better, got more steals, blocks and rebounds and turned the ball over less, and he’s bigger.

    19. swiftandabundant

      There seems to be a overall vibe now that any pick taken in the top 8 who doesn’t turn into an all-star is a “bust.” I think maybe its because the term “star” is broader than it used to be. But if you get a good starter out of your top 8 pick then I don’t think that’s a bust. Maybe if your number one or two pick doesn’t turn into an all-star then he’s a bust. But if all you get out of a top 8 pick is a good starter, then I think you’ve drafted as well as can be expected.

      Of course I want us to draft a future all-star. But drafting competent starters who can be part of the future should be what we hope for. If we draft well and develop, a star player will show up either through drafting and developing or we’ll sign one in FA in a few years when we have a solid foundation of players.

    20. Hugo Busto

      Wiggins isn’t even the worst black hole on his team. That honor goes to Shabazz, Lavine, and Dieng.

      And in what world is Rubio a “decent” shooter? Still a terrible 3point shooter and took him about 5 years to finally be able to finish 50% of his shots at the rim. Which btw is actually pathetic, putrid. Has to be one of the worst PG finishers in the league.

    21. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Do you totally ignore stats? I feel like you totally ignore stats. Tell me more about your eyetest.

    22. english_knick

      #21 – totally agree. Yes, a star would be great. But it’s rare you find – the sixers have repeatedly picked top 5 and who knows if they have any viable stars from their recent draftees? Cabs picked first three times in four years, got one star and according to advanced stats even he is overrated due to his terrible defence.

      We need to view this as a steady rebuild, pick the best player available and look for them to be a viable long-term piece of a good team. If he turns out to be a star, great.

      What I will say is that there’s an unusually high number of players who analysts peg as having a *chance* to be a star in this draft. Chad ford, draft express, the guys at the Ringer all seem to agree there is deep potential in this draft. That’s why if we could acquire another pick we should absolutely try. It’s also why if we jump into the top three, I’d be tempted to look at trading for sacramento’s two lottery picks – doubling down on this draft gives us a better chance of one of the guys we pick hitting star level.

    23. Hugo Busto

      What do you want me to say? Spout vorp and whatever other bullshit you want to write? alot of those are flawed stats and just paint whatever picture you want to claim.

      At the end of the day Rubio is bad at putting the ball into the basket. FACT
      he has great vision, passing, and defense.

      but he still is injury prone, lacks athleticism, and is one of the worst shooters in nba history and one of the worst finishers at the rim.

    24. thenoblefacehumper

      This really isn’t complicated. There are aspects of basketball other than scoring, and Rubio is very good at literally all of them. He also has his TS% up to .55, which is perfectly fine for a player as well-rounded as him. The Wolves actually have the 10th best offense in the league, their problem is on the other end.

    25. Brian Cronin

      There seems to be a overall vibe now that any pick taken in the top 8 who doesn’t turn into an all-star is a “bust.” I think maybe its because the term “star” is broader than it used to be. But if you get a good starter out of your top 8 pick then I don’t think that’s a bust. Maybe if your number one or two pick doesn’t turn into an all-star then he’s a bust. But if all you get out of a top 8 pick is a good starter, then I think you’ve drafted as well as can be expected.

      Of course I want us to draft a future all-star. But drafting competent starters who can be part of the future should be what we hope for. If we draft well and develop, a star player will show up either through drafting and developing or we’ll sign one in FA in a few years when we have a solid foundation of players.

      With the #8 pick, yes, you shouldn’t expect a star, but…

      A. If the Knicks are picking #8, then that’s already a disappointment and…

      B. If the Knicks suffer through another godawful season and don’t even get a star rookie out of it, well, that’s super depressing. Like they can’t even lose correctly.

    26. Hugo Busto

      But lets blame all of the TWolves problems on 21 year old Andrew Wiggins and lump him with darko and bargnani.

    27. Brian Cronin

      He’s a career 82.8% shooter from the line, so it’s not like he wasn’t already a good free throw shooter before this season.

    28. DS

      Very interesting points on Monk. I get that people want the PG of the future and not Beal or Eric Gordon as a best-case-scenario. I asked because I read that the Rockets broke the Warriors’ record for threes and was wondering what it would be like to surround KP with four very good three point shooters.

      … Lavor is right in that they would probably be a bad rebounding team. The current Rockets don’t have great rebounders either but seem to get it done as a team.

    29. thenoblefacehumper

      his ts% is buoyed by him somehow shooting 89% on free throws this year.

      Uh, not really. Even if his FT% this year was his career rate of 83%, his TS would be .54. Also, 89% with a career rate of 83% isn’t some crazy anomaly. Especially when you consider the fact that it’s pretty clear he’s actively improving a a shooter.

    30. DRed

      Rubio > Wiggins and it’s not close. Wiggins is an inefficient volume scorer who doesn’t play good defense or do anything else particularly well.

      The big caveat is that he’s still young enough that it’s conceivable he improves significantly.

    31. Hugo Busto

      Well that is my argument and that Rubio isn’t anything special despite his recent stretch.

      but darko milicic, kwame brown, bargnani blah blah

    32. djphan

      having a lotto pick and getting someone like rubio or conley is about what you should expect… getting a decent starter is what you should be aiming for lotto picks and it’s not an easy thing to accomplish….

    33. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I don’t think people realize how low the hit rate is even on lottery picks. If you get a good NBA starter with a top 8 pick you take that to the bank. Everyone wants a star–especially the Knicks–but I wouldn’t get my expectations too high given the vagaries of the draft

      That being said: Fall for Ball

    34. english_knick

      #37 – agreed. Just looked – there aren’t loads of great stats I could find quickly but basically after the first pick, the average player picked at each point in the rest of the lottery has way less than a 50% chance of ever making an AS team. A high level starter is a good result anywhere we’re likely to pick.

    35. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      But lets blame all of the TWolves problems on 21 year old Andrew Wiggins and lump him with darko and bargnani.

      As I said, there are 4 other players on the Wolves who are god-awful, relative to NBA average.

      My point about Darko and Bargnani is that once someone says, “This is lottery talent,” other teams will follow suit and give them 2nd, 3rd, and 8th chances to “reach their potential.”

      Wiggins could be a solid starter in a few years. He could become (though it’s unlikely) a superstar by 25. Or he could be that guy who ends up flaming out, yet receives contracts from ambitious coaches who think they can finally, just finally fix those middling shot mechanics, or his defensive awareness, or his total inability to grab rebounds at 6’7″.

    36. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      @16
      BALLpark FRANKs will make you FOXy.
      In that order.

      Okay, I really need you to stop, now.

    37. DS

      If there are any legs to the rumors that Jimmy Butler is “a goner,” you know that he’s going to Boston and that they’re not even going to have to give up all of their young talent or picks.

    38. Hugo Busto

      Cock Jewel,

      I understand your point but Wiggins 100% has more star potential than those terrible #1 picks

      And I still stand by fact that Rubio is a average point guard. There are ~15 point guards that would make the Wolves a better team right now. And maybe even a few that would keep them the same.

    39. chrisk06811

      The only other flaw in Rubio’s game is that he’s been kicking it hard since the trade deadline rumors; he probably read all the shit you guys were talking about him; and now it’s going to be very hard to get him.

    40. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Has anyone noticed that any time Jackson gets in trade talks for a player that end up falling through they suddenly start shooting 40% from 3?

      See: Kyle Lowry, Ricky Rubio

    41. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @49 That’s because Phil knows talent. Please remember that he’s only had one inherited first round draft pick so far.

    42. thenoblefacehumper

      Has anyone noticed that any time Jackson gets in trade talks for a player that end up falling through they suddenly start shooting 40% from 3?

      See: Kyle Lowry, Ricky Rubio

      I think the Lowry talks happened under the brief Mills regime.

    43. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Travis Trice has been playing great since he returned from Australia. He’s put on 10 pounds of muscle, seems much quicker and stronger, and his outside shooting is better than ever. He’s a leader as a PG with a big heart too. I know he’s not that tall (6’1″) and might struggle on defense because of it but he looks ready for a shot at the NBA.

      Last night’s line: 30 pts, 11/19 shooting, 4/6 threes, 4/5 free throws, 2 rebs, 6 assists, 2 steals, only 1 turnover in 36 minutes.

      I’d like to give him a shot on a 10 day contract. The kid is hungry.

    44. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I understand your point but Wiggins 100% has more star potential than those terrible #1 picks

      That’s because the rest are proven busts. I assure you that the Kwame Brown hype was real. Anthony Bennett is the only #1 pick I can remember that didn’t inspire a whole league of pundits to declare him the next franchise player.

      Your bias is real thick here.

    45. Owen

      If we end up picking 8th and get a guy like Patrick Beverley, i’d probably be fine with that. He’s a solid NBA player and better than most of our guard options for the last 15 years.

    46. Brian Cronin

      I’d like to give him a shot on a 10 day contract. The kid is hungry.

      Who do you cut? Sasha?

    47. Brian Cronin

      If we end up picking 8th and get a guy like Patrick Beverley, i’d probably be fine with that. He’s a solid NBA player and better than most of our guard options for the last 15 years.

      Agreed, but if they pick 4th and get Beverley, that’s disappointing.

      And if they end up picking 8th, that’s disappointing in and of itself.

    48. TheOakmanCometh

      If this pick only turns into Patrick Beverley we should all feel bitterly disappointed.

    49. Owen

      Just saying, Beverley is not chopped liver and it’s hard to draft a guy outside the top three who goes on to be a consistently above average player.

      As someone famously said, you got to be realistic.

    50. lavor postell

      Wiggins’ production on his current contract is fine, but we all know he’s getting a max after next year because he can score, there’s a premium on wings around the league and he’s young enough you can buy into turning the athletic potential into a monster 2 way player.

      If he doesn’t do more than volume scoring on his next contract at an above average level though, it’s going to be a terrible deal. Potential is easy to sell on a rookie deal, but once you attach a 25m+ salary to the equation people want to see production not hear about potential.

    51. stratomatic

      We need an ignore button on this forum.

      Anyone that is trashing Rubio is an automatic ignore for me. Not only has he been above average in multiple ways all along and more than made up for mediocre shooting, he’s playing a lot better since the trade deadline.

      Last night he had 33/10/5 with 5/6 from the 3 point line.

      I wish we had a player like Rubio.

    52. Hugo Busto

      I think his physical tools/ IQ and decision making.

      Smith has t-Rex arms and not sure he projects to be a plus defender. NC state as whole wasn’t very good this year

      Sure Washington was even worse but I think Fultz had even worse teammates whereas Dennis Smith could have done better.

      I wouldn’t take him in the top 5

    53. Brian Cronin

      The interesting to me in regards to Wiggins is this line by Kevin O’Connor, a very smart basketball writer for The Ringer, writing about Wiggins, “The Cavaliers couldn’t have known Wiggins would be this good this quickly.”

      In other words, smart people think Wiggins is good right now, not just that he has the potential to be good (or that, as lavor postell correctly notes, he has been fine enough for the money he’s getting paid, which is very little). And that’s fascinating, because I don’t see it at all. I totally get the “he has the ability to improve,” but “this good this quickly”? Huh? He’s at the end of his third season!

    54. Hugo Busto

      I wish we had a player like Rubio.

      That means absolutely nothing or isn’t really saying much. We have Derrick Rose. Of course any other guard is going to be a nice upgrade over him.

    55. stratomatic

      Monk reminds me of the kind of player that will be wildly overrated his entire NBA career because he can score and make tough shots. In a few years smart advanced stats guys will be making jokes about him because foolish franchises keep trading for him.

      I hate to say stuff like that about such a young kid that could easily develop into so much more than he is now. I hope I am wrong no matter who gets him. But I see him as just a scorer that does little else above average and that won’t necessarily be able to defend bigger SGs.

    56. stratomatic

      That means absolutely nothing or isn’t really saying much. We have Derrick Rose. Of course any other guard is going to be a nice upgrade over him.

      I’ll clarify.

      I wish we had him as our long term PG to be part of the rebuild with KP, WH, and whoever we draft, sign, and trade for in the off season.

    57. Hugo Busto

      Last night he had 33/10/5 with 5/6 from the 3 point line.

      Ok fair enough.

      Wiggins has had stretches where he has played great on both sides of the ball. He’s just too inconsistent right now. He’s improved his outside shooting, ball dribbling/handling, and is actually a legit good passer.

      His cons are that he is getting to the rim less this year and instead settling for mid range. He doesn’t always try on the D/glass. And he needs to improve shooting off of screens

    58. stratomatic

      I don’t even think Wiggins is good. I’d say he’s a below average starter. He’s an above average scorer, but given the moderate efficiency, not an especially good scorer. He’s below average at several other things.

    59. djphan

      fox and smith are virtually identical according to the numbers… smith had a higher usg rate just due to being on a much worse team…

      it’s more of a stylistic difference with them… smith seems more like a pg in the rose mold… someone who looks to score first but depending on the team he goes to he might develop differently… fox is more of a conley type… but again he might also develop differently…

      i consider them the same but give the smallest of edges to fox since we know he’s capable of not dominating the ball and being successful…

    60. Hugo Busto

      My whole point was that I could see him as a 25 year old leading the Wolves on some deep playoff runs.

    61. djphan

      wiggins is not good… and the biggest reason why the twolves disappointed this year because they ran the offense through him instead of kat…

    62. Hugo Busto

      Fox is a significantly better prospect then Dennis Smith. He has more quickness, coordination, and handling allows him to get to the rim at will, and his soft touch at the rim enables him to finish efficiently

    63. Hugo Busto

      wiggins is not good… and the biggest reason why the twolves disappointed this year because they ran the offense through him instead of kat…

      Lol who else do you want to carry the load? Towns takes 18 fga a game on 27.5% usage. Wiggins takes 18 on 28% usg. Sure Towns is more efficient, no one is arguing that.

      But when you have Rubio who has a bottom 5 pg usg of 16% while sharing the court with another non factor in Dieng. what else do you expect or want?

    64. djphan

      well it wasn’t that way to start the year… they’ve done a lot better lately because towns has been more of the focal point…

      but their issues has always been more on the defensive end…

    65. lavor postell

      well it wasn’t that way to start the year… they’ve done a lot better lately because towns has been more of the focal point…

      Towns was always a focal point. They just had Rubio play off ball more and had Wiggins on ball at the top of the initiating offense more frequently. Now, they’ve switched it where Rubio handles the initial actions and Wiggins operates in a secondary capacity.

      Also not having Lavine has made finding an offensive equilibrium easier because Rubio has been forced to be on ball more.

    66. yellowboy90

      So do people not believe Smith JR is 6’3 195 lbs even if he is only 6’2 and 190 lbs I’d still give him the size advantage over a 6’4 171 lbs guy. I think Smith can develop into a pesky defender in the mold of Lowry.

    67. Philmelo

      I see Denver tied for 5. Their PG is Mudiay , who has a .311 % from 3.

      The funny thing about Denver is that their offensive production has generally gotten better as Mudiay has progressively played less minutes. If anything, pointing to Mudiay shows how Denver got better as they played their better shooters like Jameer Nelson more.

      Giannis is worse if you classify him as Milwaukee’s PG.

      I don’t.

      I don’t see why lack of a 3 point shot as a freshman in college is a harbinger of doom.

      Because you can’t find me a top offense that relies on a guard who can’t drain 3s at league average level.

    68. lavor postell

      Because you can’t find me a top offense that relies on a guard who can’t drain 3s at league average level.

      You talking about both guard spots or just a PG? Because Toronto is great offensively even with DeRozan on very high usage.

      Minnesota’s top 10 and Rubio shoots 32% from 3.

      It’s hard but not impossible.

    69. Philmelo

      He has the ability to pass but he currently doesn’t have a good enough handle to consistently create offense for himself or others.

      Not necessary for the offense we’re running next year.

      That said, he also understands spacing on offense and is looking to make the right play rather than to just go for his.

      Which is why he’s perfect for the offense we’re running next year.

    70. Philmelo

      What player are you talking about in the quote you responded to?

      Did you ever read my last response in the last thread?

    71. Hugo Busto

      The post where you quoted a delusional Phil Jackson from 2013 about the Spurs offense?

    72. Philmelo

      The post where you quoted a delusional Phil Jackson from 2013 about the Spurs offense?

      So at least you read it. Unfortunately, you didn’t learn from it. But as they say, you can lead a horse to water…

    73. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @55 Sure I’d cut Sasha at this point for Trice. It’s not like he won’t be there for us if Phil wants him back again. He’d be a good coach for us too. Trice would be fun to watch.

    74. english_knick

      Brian – I understand the emotion behind what you say but the reality is I think Beverley is probably only a bit below par for what you’d expect from the average 4th pick. Or look at it another way – Porzingis, who is really good but may or may not ever be a megastar, is almost certainly already easily on track to be better than you might expect from the 4th pick.

      4th picks since 2009 – Tyrke Evans, Wes Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Cody Zeller, Aaron Gordon, Porzingis, Dragan Bender. Last nailed on star (now, with hindsight) at that position? 2008 – Westbrook. Think I’d take Beverley over at least a few of these guys…

    75. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I think that in the upcoming draft I’d like a Melo replacement, an ankle breaker and a Klay Thompson type. Is that asking too much of Phil?

    76. lavor postell

      I think that in the upcoming draft I’d like a Melo replacement, an ankle breaker and a Klay Thompson type. Is that asking too much of Phil?

      That’s asking too much of any GM.

    77. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @89 Sasha would make a darn handsome triangle coach and a wonderful good will ambassador to our European friends.

    78. #firePhilJackson

      five years ago Knicks made playoffs by shooting the most threes in a season, fun times…. now this triangle is antiquated

    79. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      4th picks since 2009 – Tyrke Evans, Wes Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Cody Zeller, Aaron Gordon, Porzingis, Dragan Bender. Last nailed on star (now, with hindsight) at that position? 2008 – Westbrook. Think I’d take Beverley over at least a few of these guys…

      All that this means is NBA teams are horrid at evaluating pre-draft talent. And post-draft. Free-agent talent, too. And trade-target talent. They’re shit at everything, basically. Except the Spurs and a few other franchises (you can guess who).

    80. english_knick

      All it means is that we shouldn’t expect a guaranteed perennial all-star picking at 4 or 5, and that a high level starter is a decent goal as part of a broader team-building strategy…

    81. TheOakmanCometh

      @88

      Patrick Beverley is shooting pretty low for the #4 pick. Check out the third chart on this page:

      http://nyloncalculus.com/2016/06/17/freelance-friday-expected-value-in-the-nba-draft/

      The average #4 pick has a >10% chance of being All-NBA first team, >30% chance of being an All-Star, and an 80% chance of being a rotation player. If I could sign right now for drafting Beverley or roll the dice with another pick, I’m rolling the dice. The bust potential of the pick is low so there’s not much to lose.

    82. #firePhilJackson

      @95 they certainly play fun basketball to watch even without Durant, enjoyed watching the game against Spurs after that crappy Knicks game against Miami

      saw a post that five years ago they were close to trading Curry for Dwight and build around Monta!

    83. english_knick

      @99 – don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying I want a Beverley-level outcome. I hope we hit way higher. I’m just saying expectations need to be realistic. Beverley is a decent rotation player – he’s the 80 percent outcome in your stats. Rubio is maybe a better example – he was picked, what, 5th? That’s not a terrible outcome. there’s a sense in here that if we don’t walk away with a perennial all star we’ve failed but most drafts have 2 or 3 of those and they won’t all be in the top 4 picks…

      Obviously there’s a chance we hit big with our pick – a decent chance, just not a huge one.

    84. chrisk06811

      Then we turned down Rose for Rubio

      Is there evidence of this? even if the recording device in Phil’s microwave picked this up, I seriously doubt Minn ever offered us Rubio for Rose without wanting our 1 as well.

    85. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @101 You have to consider the Phil phactor in your equations. He’s already surprised us once.

    86. TheOakmanCometh

      @101

      You may be misreading the stats. The 80% figure refers to the #4 pick having an 80% chance of being at least a rotation player. But that pick also has a >30% chance of being an All-Star, which Beverley will never be.

      That chart I linked to doesn’t include the median value of the #4 pick, but given that it comes with a 30% chance of being an All-Star and a 20% chance of being a non-rotation guy, we can reasonably expect better than Beverley-level value. Not much better, maybe, but better.

    87. TheOakmanCometh

      @101

      If you look at the second chart on that page, it shows that the #4-6 pick has a peak season of around 2.4 VORP. Patrick Beverley’s career high in VORP is 2.1. So he is slightly below the average peak season for a #4-6 pick.

      Rubio’s career-high VORP is 2.3, so he is closer to the expected value for the #4-6 pick.

    88. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      (ASG appearances are really, really, really bad measurements of player value)

    89. chrisk06811

      Cleveland is in a spin. they should rest lebron, kyree and love tonight; no reason to send them out there in a back to back. it’s only Philly!!!

    90. english_knick

      Either people are missing my point or I’m making it badly – two countries separated by a common language, perhaps? Basically, I agree with the last few comments. Give or take, players like Beverley and Rubio are around the level you should ‘expect’ from a 4-6 player (the VORP numbers are helpful – I’m pleased both that my view is slightly too pessimistic and also that it’s not wildly out of kilter).

      My original point was just that I worry people are expecting that a star level player is a given if we pick high enough and I don’t think that’s the case. Most of what people have said in response more or less bears might point out.

      (Also – @106 – agreed. I was on the move with limited time and scouting for a quick proxy for ‘how valuable are picks’. ASG appearances was the one I found. Oakman’s VORP stats are better – but I think they make broadly the same point)

      Oakman – I read the stats the same way you do I think. Theres a smallish chance a very high pick is a bust, a good chance they are at least a rotation player but only a moderate chance they are better than that. That’s all I was getting at. Several of the ‘amazing’ prospects in the consensus top ten this year won’t turn out to be amazing.

    91. TheOakmanCometh

      @109

      Fair enough. We’re on the same page. Beverley would be a mild disappointment for the #4-6 pick but not an egregious value.

      That said, I hope our guy is more Patrick Ewing than Patrick Beverley :)

    92. Hugo Busto

      why do the knicks need to be so secretive about the game statuses for Melo and Rose? Just sit them, announce it, and be done with it.

    93. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @112 I wonder if the league has a directive against wantonly sitting star players? I believe that they do.

    94. Hugo Busto

      @113

      yea that is true I guess. Although this isn’t a nationally televised game. And I feel like you could always just cite “sore knee” for Melo and “back spasms” for Rose and no one would think twice.

      It’s honestly less about tanking with regards to sitting Melo, I think it is more to just limit the chances he gets seriously injured and ruins any slim trade chances

    95. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      When you’re a bottom-5 team, you draft BPA.

      The best player available will be better than Beverley, who is a pretty good player on an excellent team. The question is whether you can identify that player. I don’t think the Knicks can.

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