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Tuesday, March 28, 2017

Knicks Morning News (2017.02.12)

  • [NYPost] Knicks veteran set to return and is looking to bolster defense
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 6:53:08 PM)

    The headaches are gone — at least for Knicks forward Lance Thomas, who is expected to return Sunday against the Spurs at the Garden. Thomas has missed the last 14 games with a fractured right orbital bone. While working his way back, he experienced headaches that sent him to a specialist. Now the biggest headache…

  • [NYPost] Jeff Hornacek made Knicks painfully relive their horror show
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 5:45:50 PM)

    One day after coach Jeff Hornacek lambasted the defense — or non-defense — of his starters, saying they should be “embarrassed” by how they played, the lone player who spoke to the media Saturday was Lance Thomas. Thomas last played Jan. 15 at Toronto, where he suffered a fractured orbital bone. Thomas made valid points…

  • [NYPost] Charles Oakley wasn’t only fan ejected for bad-mouthing Dolan
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:55:57 PM)

    Charles Oakley wasn’t the only fan ejected at the Knicks game Wednesday. According to a Garden source, a fan was thrown out for yelling obscenities at Knicks team owner James Dolan, before the Oakley incident. Though Oakley’s incident escalated and resulted in the arrest of the Knicks legend, the ouster of the unidentified fan did…

  • [NYPost] Behind the Charles Oakley T-shirts that could take over MSG
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:40:48 PM)

    One Knicks fan had a “Free Oakley’’ sign taken away by Garden security Friday night. Nevertheless, with a new wardrobe item now available, it is doubtful James Dolan protesters will have the shirt ripped off their backs Sunday. A company co-owned by ex-Knick Chris Smith started producing blue “I’m With Oakley’’ T-shirts that its investors…

  • [NYPost] Oakley: Does Dolan think I’m an alcoholic because I help alcoholics?
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 11:53:32 AM)

    Charles Oakley says he doesn’t have a problem with alcohol and has been active in helping others with the disease. While owner James Dolan has accused him of likely being an alcoholic in banning him from the Garden, Oakley continues to help fight alcoholism in supporting his friend, ex-Net Jayson Williams, and assisting at treatment centers…

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Knicks have long practice ahead of Sunday’s game
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 11:33:18 PM)

    SNY’s Taylor Rooks reports from the Knicks practice facility where head coach Jeff Hornacek touches on improving their effort in games.

  • [SNY Knicks] Larry Johnson considers skipping Knicks games amid Oakley’s ban
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 8:59:49 PM)

    Former Knick Larry Johnson currently works for the team, but he is not sure if he will show up for work following owner James Dolan’s decision to ban his former teammate, Charles Oakley, from Madison Square Garden.

  • [SNY Knicks] Oakley says he does not have drinking problem
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 5:13:57 PM)

    Despite Knicks owner James Dolan’s remarks that Charles Oakley might have a drinking problem, Oakley told the New York Post that he does not have an issue with alcohol and has actually been helping others that do.

  • [SNY Knicks] Thomas in, Noah out for Sunday’s game against Spurs
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 3:42:11 PM)

    Lance Thomas will return to the lineup Sunday against the Spurs while Joakim Noah is expected to sit out again, reports Stefan Bondy of the New York Daily News.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks send Plumlee, Ndour to D-League
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 2:49:21 PM)

    The Knicks have assigned Marshall Plumlee and Maurice Ndour to Westchester of the D-League, the team announced Saturday.

  • [SNY Knicks] Is it time for the Knicks to look toward future?
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 2:30:55 PM)

    Over the last four games, the Knicks have averaged an impressive 112.3 points per game. Unfortunately, the problem is that they’ve lost all four contests.

  • [SNY Knicks] Dolan, Oakley took vastly different paths to Madison Square Garden
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:23:47 PM)

    Former Knicks legend Charles Oakley worked hard to have a successful career in the NBA, while owner James Dolan’s life has been the almost the exact opposite, says The Vertical’s Adrian Wojnarowski in a video essay.

  • [SNY Knicks] Anthony says Knicks have ‘cloud’ hanging over team
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 11:24:56 AM)

    With struggles on the court and controversy off of it, the Knicks have a “cloud” hanging over them, according to Carmelo Anthony.

  • [NYDN] Jeff Hornacek now trying to get Knicks vets to just play hard
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 9:03:13 PM)

    As the saying goes, you can’t coach effort.

  • [NYDN] Kristaps Porzingis should look carefully at latest Knicks drama
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 7:05:00 PM)

    Why would Porzingis possibly want to lock himself in with the Knicks for the prime of his career?

  • [NYDN] Larry Johnson torn between loyalty to Dolan, Oakley
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 3:00:00 PM)

    Larry Johnson finds himself in the most uncomfortable of places.

  • [NYDN] Why Dolan’s return to spotlight is bad news for Phil Jackson
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 9:46:39 AM)

    Seriously though, Dolan’s return to the spotlight, after he stuck MSG security on Charles Oakley is terrible news for Phil Jackson.

  • [NYTimes] Draymond Green Records a Triple-Double With Just 4 Points
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 6:21:24 AM)

    Green had 12 rebounds, 10 assists and 10 steals in the Golden State Warriors’ 122-107 win over the Memphis Grizzlies on Friday.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ drama might scare off potential free agents
    (Sunday, February 12, 2017 2:15:02 AM)

    The Knicks’ wild week might have sent up red flags to potential free agents about the direction of the franchise. Until something changes drastically, quality players might be deterred from considering the Knicks.

  • [NY Newsday] Charles Oakley had a pool altercation in Las Vegas
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:53:38 PM)

    Hundreds of court papers obtained by Newsday show similarities regarding how quickly both incidents involving Oakley and security officers escalated.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Saturday practice all about getting stops on defense
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 8:28:48 PM)

    GREENBURGH, N.Y. — After Friday night’s 131-123 loss to the Nuggets, a fuming coach Jeff Hornacek said the Knicks “should be embarrassed the way we couldn’t guard anybody.”

  • [ESPN] Oakley responds to Dolan: I’m not an alcoholic
    (Saturday, February 11, 2017 6:23:07 PM)

    Oakley responds to Dolan: I’m not an alcoholic

  • 343 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2017.02.12)

    1. GoldClub

      Just to indulge in a bit of fantasy, say we won the draft lottery and the Sixers ended up with picks 4 and 7. Would you swap the #1 for both?

    2. kevin5318

      If Isaac was there at #4 then yes. I would be ecstatic if we came away from this draft with Isaac+Frank/Fox.

    3. Bo Nateman

      Spurs @ the Garden today provides ample opportunity to further the Tank and push Dolan/PJ towards an acknowledged rebuild. National TV audience will be regaled with how dysfunctional the organization is with the horrid play, Oakley, PJ diss of Melo exhibits being again on display. Can there be a more palpable contrast of franchises than the Knicks and the Spurs? Would be great if there was some creative visible fan protest ( can someone knit a no defense or embrace the Tank cap). Dolan being an insecure narcissist may be pushed more into some type of action. One can only speculate who is advising him through this debacle. Going to the interview was an awful idea with Knicksian execution. Watching the value of his brand decline certainly won’t strengthen Melo’s resolve to stay in NYC.

    4. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Yeah I’d probably trade down in that case.

      Isaac/Jackson + Smith/Frank/Fox would be a great haul

    5. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Looks like there are 2 impact players in the draft. Fultz and Ball. Maybe Isaac and Jackson too. Everyone else is flawed. We don’t really know about Nitilikina so maybe add him. I like Fox but terrible shooting. What do people think of Dennis Smith? I watched him yesterday in a blowout loss to Wake Forest and he didn’t do much.

    6. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      The tank will accelerate further today with the return of Lance Thomas!

    7. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I do trust in Phil. He’s had one first pick in his arsenal in 3 years and what he has done is impressive. Even with the setbacks.

    8. Owen

      I’d probably stick with Ball. How long has it been since we had a great guard on the Knicks? He seems a better bet than the other two.

    9. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Owen I’d love to get Ball. But the odds are not with us there. That’s the problem. I’m really hoping that Nitilikina is a hidden gem and that we can snag him when we draft somewhere between 7 and 15.

    10. Owen

      Well, someone asked if you’d rather have Ball or the 4 and 7 picks.

      But yes, I am aware it’s unlikely we get the first pick.

    11. mase

      Yea to drafting a guard.. Austin rivers would be ok too. Overpaid but still young.

      Josh Jackson is the second best player in this draft imho.

    12. Philmelo

      Ball is a far from perfect player. I am worried people think they’re getting a finished product. He really doesn’t run many pick and roll plays in UCLA. He also has problems creating the sufficient space as a pull back jump shooter to get his jumper off at times and doesn’t show a mid-range game at all. But what we’re getting in terms of a floor general and all around producer is great.

    13. Philmelo

      Yeah, Ball represents the new style of basketball which is all about the up tempo transition game, 3 point shot or drive to the basket. His game is a stat-head’s dream in many ways.

    14. Philmelo

      Ian Begley
      ESPN Staff Writer

      Here at Madison Square Garden for Knicks-Spurs and a young singer with a great voice is on the court belting out “Let It Be.” That’s the song Phil Jackson referenced in a tweet on Thursday. Coincidence?

    15. DRed

      Yeah, Ball represents the new style of basketball which is all about the up tempo transition game, 3 point shot or drive to the basket. His game is a stat-head’s dream in many ways.

      He averages almost twice as many 3’s as free throws, which I think is a bit of a statistical red flag.

      Edit: or maybe it’s just the low number of FTAs that’s a bit worrying

    16. Philmelo

      He averages almost twice as many 3’s as free throws, which I think is a bit of a statistical red flag.

      Yes, part of it is that amateurish offense UCLA runs that has him camp out at the 3 point line. But it is a point of concern.

    17. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Honestly I think Ntilikina might be the 3rd best PG in this draft. It’s hard to tell. Smith sometimes looks amazing and sometimes looks lost against better teams and he plays no defense. I love Frank’s game myself.

    18. Philmelo

      Honestly I think Ntilikina might be the 3rd best PG in this draft.

      Maybe 2nd if you don’t see Fultz as a long term PG, which I don’t.

    19. DRed

      Honestly I think Ntilikina might be the 3rd best PG in this draft. It’s hard to tell.

      He’s 18 and averaging 1.6 assists per 36 minutes playing as a shooting guard in France, so yeah, it’s going to be hard to evaluate how good of an NBA point guard he’ll be in like 5 years.

    20. Philmelo

      I can evaluate Ntilikina’s defense. And there isn’t a scout who doubts it. He’s a major force as a perimeter defender. I will live with the fact that he’s not the quickest guard or the best ball handler yet.

    21. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      I really wish that Fox could shoot. He’s big, long lightning fast, has vision and passing skills. I would definitely take a chance on him from pick 5 down.

    22. Philmelo

      How many games of his have you watched?

      All of his Euro 18 games and around 3 of his games with Srausborg.

    23. Philmelo

      Portland sent their Plumlee and a 2nd to Denver for Nurkic and a 1st round pick.

      Tells me Denver is in it to win it.

    24. Hugo Busto

      Why are they giving away a 1st for plumlee to backup jokic? Seems terrible…both value wise and for team needs. Not only that but Plumlee is a restricted free agent. He’s going to have to get paid in the offseason.

    25. Hugo Busto

      who cares? gonna give up a 1st rounder in this draft? LOL for a half season rental of a plumlee then gonna want a big contract

      Plumlee who doesn’t have much offense, doesn’t play great defense. he is a solid passer and rebounder. he fouls alot and other teams can hack him as well

      portland now has 3 first rounders in this draft

    26. DRed

      Also I don’t know if anyone mentioned this last night, but Philly is held out Okafor last night because of trade talks. After the Spurs wax us Phil needs to get on the phone because things are starting to move.

    27. Philmelo

      UGH PHIL YOU IDIOT WHY COULDNT YOU TRADE THEM KYLE O’QUINN FOR THE DENVER PICK.

      Because he’s going to be part of a package deal to send Melo to Cleveland.

    28. Ben R

      If there was any doubt O’Quinn is worth a first rounder that Portland trade should quell it. O’Quinn is better than Plumlee on a much better contract.

      As for Ntilikina he would be the last PG out of the 6 that I would draft. His lack of burst and the fact that he doesn’t even play PG on his pro team worries me. He is and will be a great defender but he hardly seems like a difference maker offensively. If we want a great defensive PG we should go after Rubio or draft Fox who also looks like a good defender.

      Ntilikina seems like his ceiling is rich mans Patrick Beverley. Great defender, good spot up shooter, no burst to the basket, average passer.

    29. Accidentank 2017

      Melo isn’t going to Cleveland. Not now not ever. A Melo trade is dead to me; I’m focused on the Fire Phil bandwagon and the tank.

    30. Hugo Busto

      also denver is really gonna go all in just to get the 8 seed so they can get stomped by the warriors?

    31. Accidentank 2017

      I think the best PGs in this draft are Ball, Fultz, and Fox. Smith Jr’s ACL tear will be an asterisk forever (and he sucks at landing so he’ll tear it again), Monk isn’t a point guard, and I need to do more homework on Ntilikina because he plays the 2 right now.

      Fox is quickly becoming a favorite of mine. He contributes to every area of the game, he’s the most athletic player in the draft, he’s a great defender, and he’s a leader. He plays like a more controlled version of Russell Westbrook. He can’t shoot but he’s a hard worker (unlike Shump who preferred the glamour of the game to the grind of it) so I think he can turn into a respectable shooter over time. It’s highly unlikely that we can get another top 10 pick, but I really want both of Isaac and Fox. Those two are team oriented high ceiling stat sheet stuffers and they’re the best defenders in the draft. We need defense, pride, leadership, and coachability out of our prospects most right now. Those two are my favorites in that regard.

    32. Philmelo

      Ntlikina has way more upside than a Patrick Beverly. Beverly’s ceiling was a 3 and D guy, that’s Ntilikina’s floor.

    33. Philmelo

      Melo isn’t going to Cleveland. Not now not ever. A Melo trade is dead to me; I’m focused on the Fire Phil bandwagon and the tank.

      So ridiculous. You have a better shot of a Melo trade to Cleveland than you do of Phil being fired the next two seasons, which is good since Phil recognizes the value of tanking.

    34. JK47

      On the one hand, I want the Knicks to make some trades to collect some assets for a rebuild. On the other hand, I don’t want Phil Jackson making roster trades because he’s incompetent.

      #Knicks

    35. Hugo Busto

      Plumlee can’t play next to Jokic, can he? They have to have convinced themselves of that. Otherwise why give up a 1st to get a backup you are almost certainly not matching a fair market value on?

      Right now its the 21st pick they are sending. It’s just another ok shot to bink a starter or better down the road. That’s valuable. You shouldn’t be just giving it away for someone who doesn’t add much to your team and you might not even keep.

      Nurkic has a bit of value in his own right. He’s only 22 and alot of his issues seem to be attitude, which some organizations may be willing to take a risk will straighten out with age or being in a different situation.

      LOL DENVER

    36. kevin5318

      Is he gonna be a decent playmaker though? I don’want to draft a guy just because we’re so desperate for perimeter defense.

      Fox has at least proven he’s capable of leading an offense.

    37. JK47

      Ntlikina has way more upside than a Patrick Beverly. Beverly’s ceiling was a 3 and D guy, that’s Ntilikina’s floor.

      We dont know what Ntilikina’s floor is. Not every Euro player with a good scouting tape makes it in the NBA. Patrick Beverley has a .540 career TS%, is a career .376 shooter from 3PT, has a .115 career WS48 and has made an all-NBA defensive team. There is no way I’m believing that is Ntilikina’s “floor.”

    38. Ben R

      @44
      You are right, Ntilikina’s ceiling is definitely better than a simple 3 and D guy, but I think Ntilikina’s most likely outcome is a taller Patrick Beverley. He could be a great player but I don’t like that he cannot even create offense for himself in the half court at lower levels. His lack of aggressiveness and a first step is a huge red flag. Porzingis and Jokic and most other dominant European players were playing much bigger roles at 18 especially considering it’s his 3rd year on the team.

    39. Philmelo

      Everything Fox can do Ntilikina can also do as well, except better.

      In fact they are very similar in terms of strengths and weaknesses, with Ntilikina being the better shooter and longer defender.

    40. bobneptune

      I wish everyone would just calm down. Now we are screaming that Plumlee and a second = a #1 and Phil hasn’t moved anyone. If he moves someone 10 days before the deadline you’ll be screaming he’s moving too quick and panicking! Geeesh….

      It is pretty clear he is doing everything possible to move Me7o which seems to be his prime directive and is searching to find the best deal he can.

      Moves are being made so people have an idea what is possible. Pay attention the next week…..

    41. Ben R

      Fox is much more explosive than Ntilikina, he has a better first step, he plays the game at a much faster pace and he is more aggressive.

    42. Philmelo

      We dont know what Ntilikina’s floor is.

      Ntilikina can knock down 3s (42.9%) and is already considered a plus defender in France at 18 years old guarding grown ass professionals because of his 7 ft. wingspan. He can easily be a Pat Beverly type. The key for him is projection. If you happen to believe, as I do, that he will fill out his long frame as he grows then you see the potential for him to be so much more. If you don’t, then he’s a 3 and D type.

    43. Accidentank 2017

      What does it matter that Phil recognizes the good of tanking if he’s terrible at every other phase of the process? The only things he has going for himself is he can draft and he doesn’t trade 1st round picks. Other than that? He built a team he thought would make the playoffs every year and he’s been way off. He’s made bad trades and his free agent signings have done more harm than good. His WL record is worse than what Isiah’s was when he got fired. On top of that? Phil has been given autonomy. Dolan has not been meddling in affairs and we STILL suck? Phil has to go. He does more damage than Melo ever will.

      But back to the draft. I’m starting to rate Fox as the 4th best player in this draft behind Ball, Isaac, and Fultz. I see him having a similar impact to this year’s Derrick Rose this offensively with much better defense as a rookie, and then he should improve every year after that. I’m becoming a bigger fan of his as I watch more game tape of his.

    44. kevin5318

      Phil might think he can turn Tatum into the next Kobe or Jordan.

      I really wouldn’t put it past him.

    45. Philmelo

      Porzingis and Jokic and most other dominant European players were playing much bigger roles at 18 especially considering it’s his 3rd year on the team.

      I wouldn’t much bigger roles. KP played 14.8 minutes a game in Sevilla. Ntilikina is playing 13.9.

      Fox is much more explosive than Ntilikina, he has a better first step, he plays the game at a much faster pace and he is more aggressive.

      I challenge you to look at Ntilikina’s Euroleague tournament wins vs. Italy and Lithuania against players his own age. He was every bit as good as De’Aaron looked against college competition.

    46. Ben R

      The thing about Ntilikina is he hasn’t played enough to make any definitive statements. He’s shooting 42.9% from 3 but he’s only taken 21 3s. So he’s 9 for 21. Before this year he showed no ability to shoot the 3 at the professional level in Europe. If he becomes a taller Beverley that’s not a bad outcome but talking like he’s a sure thing when he has barely played at the professional level is premature.

      He has great physical tools and could become a great player but don’t mistake not seeing his red flags due to lack of playing time as him not having any. I think he is the most boom or bust pick in the top 10.

    47. 2FOR18

      That Nuggets trade was so knicksy, in that Columbo-oh-just-one-more-thing kind of way.

      At first I read it as Plumlee and a #2 for Nurkic and I was like, meh. Then I saw that Denver threw in a #1 and I was aghast! So they gave up a 22 year old center (who goes for 16/11.5/1.6 per 36) for a 26 year old center AND threw in a #1 in a deep draft, when they already have Jokic anyway? How the hell did that negotiation go?

    48. Philmelo

      The only things he has going for himself is he can draft and he doesn’t trade 1st round picks.

      Those two pretty big things going into an offseason with a deep ass draft where we have three picks (1 lottery and 2 second rounders).

    49. Philmelo

      The thing about Ntilikina is he hasn’t played enough to make any definitive statements. He’s shooting 42.9% from 3 but he’s only taken 21 3s. So he’s 9 for 21. Before this year he showed no ability to shoot the 3 at the professional level in Europe.

      In the U18 he shot 58.6 percent from three. He took 29 three pointers there. I think its clear he can stroke it now as its fairly common for an 18 year old to develop a skilled feel for the three point line a year into a new league.

      I love the upside. We’re not winning anything anytime soon. I say why not take the chance and see what a freakish Euro can do with some American diet, coaching and training? Maybe he even becomes a shooting guard and not a point guard. I just know that guards with a 7 ft. wingspan don’t grow on trees.

    50. KBrazilian

      I tried to summarize what Ntlikina’s agent said (nothing very relevant):

      On the interview, his agent said that Frank doesn’t care very much about the position he will be picked; that he had some difficulties to begin the season because of a coach change on Strasbourg, his team, but that now he’s way more adapted; that the European championship gave him a lot more confidence in his game; that he’s mature for his age; that, once going to the USA, he will need some individual attention, regarding his physical development, because he’s still only 18.

      The agent says that scouts of almost every NBA franchise have called him to ask details about Frank (granted, the Draft pick positions are still a crapshoot). Of course, there are some franchises that have been calling him more often, but he understandably didn’t revealed any names.

      The agent said that many people make the obvious comparison to Tony Parker, but Ntilikina is a different player, another “model” of player. He says Frank has good IQ, agressiveness, leadership and killer stinct.

      He expresses some doubt about what would be the best situation for Frank: an established franchise, where he could take his time developing his game and take advantage of the existing chemistry; or a rebuilding franchise, where he would have guaranteed playing time and, maybe, a starter spot. He thinks that it would be important having a credible coach to ease his transition.

      The broadcasters joke, saying that the perfect franchise for Frank would be the Spurs, and ask the agents if Ntilikina has any favorite franchises. The answer: “no; actually, he wants to see the players, Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, LeBron James, James Harden…”. Frank would probably want to avoid disfunctional franchises, because he’s very competitive, but, anyway, the only thing he hopes is a franchise that works with him and has patience.

      He has a clausule in his contract that allows him coming to the NBA if he’s drafted.

    51. 2FOR18

      Just to indulge in a bit of fantasy, say we won the draft lottery and the Sixers ended up with picks 4 and 7. Would you swap the #1 for both?

      Hell yes! I’d be ecstatic to end up with Nitilikina and Josh Jackson, 2 long, athletic wings who can each guard 3 positions.

    52. Owen

      Having a Knicks guard who can play great defense would be pretty refreshing. I am not sure who the last one was you could say that about.

    53. Owen

      To answer my own question, Galloway actually played some defense. But I can’t really think of anyone who was a full time starter who was actually a good defender.

    54. yellowboy90

      So Is Denver planning to run the offense through Plumee and Jokic? How many teams have had two centers that both avg 5+ ast per 36?

    55. Frank O.

      Watched NBA countdown .
      The Knicks are a punchline. A lengthy piece on how not like a Mecca it is.
      About other players coming into the garden and shattering it.
      It was shameful. Embarrassing. Sickening.

    56. thenoblefacehumper

      Not sure I would’ve made the trade as Denver, but Plumlee is a lot better than Nurkic and is likely to be better than a draft pick in the 20s.

    57. Totes McGoats

      Kawhi guarding Lee…total mismatch- in favor of the defender lol. Today will not be the day that aggressiveness pays of for Lee. Earlier this morning I noticed something, albeit in a small sample. But..the Knicks play so much better on both ends in games that KP ends up with a double-double.

      Wow. Spree is at the game sitting next to Dolan? Dolan’s really trying to bury fan perception of Oak, huh?

    58. 2FOR18

      Lol Melo you never disappoint. If horny has any sell respect Melo should spend the 2nd quarter on the bench after that.

    59. Sir Robin

      The nix are now a sitcom. Spree playing the role of the “Exterminator” to Dolan”s George Costanza. As Spree took his seat, Dolan leaned in and said, “by the way, we’re old friends.”

    60. rama

      For all the crap people give Lance, he plays good D. You couldn’t defend Kawhi better on that play. His contract is not a problem.

    61. rama

      Hubie: “that would have been nice, because that would have been the second assist of the half for Rose.”

      Well, nice is one possible word.

    62. Accidentank 2017

      Derrick Rose is going to do something really annoying and hurt our tank soon. He just blew past the best defender in the NBA.

    63. Philmelo

      As bad as this is, the knicks would be winning if Melo had spent the whole game on the bench

      Which is why Melo is so important to our tank.

    64. Accidentank 2017

      Not tonight. Derrick Rose is 5 for 7 with 12 points. If Brandon Jennings is playing as the starter we’d be down 20.

    65. 2FOR18

      I’m upset at the former knicks who showed up to kiss Dolans ring today. Only Spike showed any class today, and that’s something I thought I’d never say.

    66. 2FOR18

      Re: Rose, has he ever once passed the ball this season after a successful drive?
      You have to hand it to him sometimes. The whole building knows what he’s going to to, and he can still pull it off on occasion.

    67. rama

      We need defense, pride, leadership, and coachability out of our prospects most right now.

      Agreed. You can build a team out of good defenders and a motion offense that gets guys open looks.

    68. Philmelo

      Rose’s explanation was convoluted but correct. Dolan was clearly trying to divide the fanbase on the issue of his feud with Oak. By dusting Latrell Spreewell off the shelf he can point to that incident and say, “Look guys, I am not a petty satrap with the morals of a slavetrader. I am willing to forgive and forget slights while inviting past Knick greats back into the fold.” Of course, the tactic is so transparent that it makes Dolan seem moronically desperate to anyone with half a brain.

    69. Philmelo

      Agreed. You can build a team out of good defenders and a motion offense that gets guys open looks.

      Look at the Spurs.

    70. d-mar

      Re: Rose, has he ever once passed the ball this season after a successful drive?
      You have to hand it to him sometimes. The whole building knows what he’s going to to, and he can still pull it off on occasion.

      Rose does one thing well – the drive to the hoop and the up and under layup. Everything else- defense, passing, etc. he sucks at.

      But you will inevitably hear the play by play guy say “vintage Derrick Rose” when he does that.

    71. Philmelo

      Typical bullshit of the team freezing KP out and him getting frustrated with those ridiculously low percentage 3s.

    72. Philmelo

      Rose is so terrible. He forces up a bullshit shot and doesn’t rush back to defend on the transition as he argues with the official.

    73. DRed

      Missed most of the quarter. All the comments are bitching and the score is tied. What aren’t y’all telling me?

    74. d-mar

      Kawhi Leonard is the anti-Derrick Rose, as opposed to doing almost nothing well, he does everything well. He is so freaking good.

    75. Accidentank 2017

      This might be the Knicks best defensive game of the year. We’re supposed to be losing right now.

    76. dtrickey

      The guys selling the “I’m with Oakley” shirts have sold over 1000 since Friday apparently. Looks like the fans aren’t fooled by the MSG PR puffery. From little things big things grow I guess.

    77. Philmelo

      I am afraid now. All it takes is for KP to go other there with the bench and ruin our tank. He’s not fouling out either.

    78. The Infamous Cdiggy

      You know, as much as I love Spree’s time with the Knicks, I give props to Jalen Rose for calling out Dolan’s tactics.

      I remember Spree’s first game back at the Garden after being traded. He swore at Dolan up and down the court. I was unaware of ANY movement of reconciliation btwn the two of them before today.

    79. Philmelo

      KP is too fucking good this game. He’s playing as mature an all around game as I’ve seen him play all year.

    80. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      I’d really rather we lose this game can San Antonio start sinking some shits they normally make please

    81. Accidentank 2017

      KP really needs to do a better job of rebounding the basketball. It’s embarrassing at this point.

    82. d-mar

      “KP fucking up, good” “Spurs in the bonus, good”

      Somehow my browser keeps redirecting me to Spur-blogger.

    83. Brian Cronin

      You know, as much as I love Spree’s time with the Knicks, I give props to Jalen Rose for calling out Dolan’s tactics.

      I remember Spree’s first game back at the Garden after being traded. He swore at Dolan up and down the court. I was unaware of ANY movement of reconciliation btwn the two of them before today.

      Their policy seems truly to be “Knick fans are complete morons who will believe everything we tell them, no matter how transparent we are.”

    84. Philmelo

      Are you fucking serious? Goddamned Spurs are supposed to be a well coached max effort team. This is embarrassing.

    85. d-mar

      I can picture a mass cringe by the Tank Squad when Hubie said a win against the Spurs could turn the Knicks season around

    86. heavencent35

      It’s nice to win games specially if there’s a sense in winning games. Will a victory will make layoffs realistic or a win is just another seed lower in the lottery. Sad to be a Knicks fan.

    87. rama

      I can’t be unhappy with that shot by Willy.

      Thankfully, Kawhi comes back with that insane shot.

      Now Melo. Sigh.

    88. Brian Cronin

      What’s with the Denver trade, is plumlee better than nurkic?

      Yes.

      Why is Denver adding a first round pick?

      No idea. That seemed like a stretch.

    89. mase

      “When she’s healthy he is still one of the upper tier guards” about rose

      These announcers are living in the past

    90. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      ughhhhhhhh

      Is it too early to say that Willy should be ROY if Embiid remains injured and Simmons either doesn’t distinguish himself or is dq’ed because he only played half a season?

    91. Totes McGoats

      Love Melo’s postgame interview. I just don’t see the cancer he’s alleged to be in these moments.

    92. Brian Cronin

      Hey, I’m as much for the tank as anyone, but even tanking teams occasionally win games, so I think we can live with this. It was a fun game, at least.

    93. Philmelo

      That three hour game video session must have worked because KP looked like an elite defensive player this game. He shut down Aldridge, altered a shit ton of shots and even had Kwahi’s number. It was impressive. No one is going to talk about it based on the boxscore but I guarantee when the coaches go over the game video they’ll identify him as the #1 reason we were able to hold the Spurs to 90 points.

    94. yellowboy90

      I should’ve known this would be a weird game after I saw Melo catch an alley on a fastbreak early in the 1st.

    95. Philmelo

      Hey, I’m as much for the tank as anyone, but even tanking teams occasionally win games, so I think we can live with this. It was a fun game, at least.

      We’re supposed to lose against the elite teams since we have a better chance of beating shitty teams. This was a devastating win. It could go down with those meaningless fucking wins at the end of 2015 season.

    96. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Yeah I just took a glance at the stats and it’s pretty clear that Embiid, Willy, Juancho, and Bertans are way better than every other rookie in the league.

      I think Willy and Embiid are the best of the four even though Willy weirdly has a negative BPM (but the 2nd best WS/48 and the best WP/48 by a country mile.) Bertans is good but older and gets less way less minutes and plays on the Spurs.

    97. Brian Cronin

      We’re supposed to lose against the elite teams since we have a better chance of beating shitty teams. This was a devastating win. It could go down with those meaningless fucking wins at the end of 2015 season.

      Oh sure, this could be a very bad win, but it’s too early to tell.

    98. d-mar

      Strong performances by Willy and KP against one of the best teams in the NBA make me happy, tank or no tank.

    99. jotapay

      Yeah, tank be damned, it felt good to see this team live up to their potential. I still don’t think it’s a matter of talent. It’s heart and culture. Player meeting without coaches, getting on the same page as a unit, this is what it means to be a team. No idea if this will carry forward (probably not) but shows you what is possible with the right leadership, culture and motivation.

    100. Accidentank 2017

      We moved back into 10th place today with this win. Sacramento plays New Orleans today and they need a win.

    101. Bruno Almeida

      Im feeling this fucking worthless team is going to manage to fuck up even their lottery position.

      at least KP played well and maybe it increases the trade value of the other bums a bit, who knows.

    102. Philmelo

      I’m not going to get too excited about Willy Hernangomez. A great talent evaluator living in his mom’s basement told me several times he’s another Cole Aldrich so that settles it. Who needs metrics when you have brilliant insights like that to learn from?

    103. Bruno Almeida

      Denver seems serious about contending, giving away a 1st rounder and Nurkic for Mason Plumlee… that was a weird trade.

      not a very important pick but well, it was an asset, and Plumlee is so average.

    104. Brian Cronin

      The tank is still in effect… games like this increase trade value

      Here’s the thing that does get me is that the tank has never actually been in effect. They’re just bad enough for the tank to be indirectly possible. That’s the only worry that I have that teams actively need to tank later in the year if they want top picks and I fear that this team will take any opportunity to try to win.

    105. Accidentank 2017

      So I just stumbled across a 6’8″ German forward in next year’s draft named Isaac Bonga. He currently plays point guard in Germany’s top basketball league.

      We might need Tank Part 2.

    106. Bruno Almeida

      @216

      the kid looks insane, between him and Doncic I’d be fine with another unintentional tank job.

      my fear is that the Knicks will win just enough games to fuck it up both times.

    107. TheOakmanCometh

      With so many teams packed so tightly in the bottom third of the league, it is likely that any win will alter our draft position. These all count.

      The only saving grace is that we beat a team who’s not in that bottom third, who we won’t be competing with for draft position.

    108. Philmelo

      This win meant nothing. Nothing! It took monumentally bad play from Danny Green for us to win. KP showed that he can be an elite defensive talent when he sits down with coaching and works on his sloppy tendencies (like biting for fakes and committing dumb fouls) as I always knew. Willy showed he can be a 10/10 starting center, which I always knew. Melo showed he can stop an offense taking an inordinate amount of shots. Rose showed he can only do one thing well.

      Blah….terrible win.

    109. TheOakmanCometh

      It is imperative that we are in position to draft one of the 6 PGs. DraftExpress says that means finishing in the bottom 10. So that has to be our minimum target.

    110. mase

      215

      The tank can’t officially start till after the deadline. But yea they probably can’t consciously tank till the last 10 games while other teams won’t wait that long,
      they have the luxury to tank earlier than us .

    111. Bruno Almeida

      I’m already binge-watching Doncic draft express videos preparing myself for the worst this year.

    112. GoldClub

      Guys — let’s be realistic. The only way the tank is going to happen is if we can trade away some players for crap and picks. Otherwise the 9th/10th pick is our ceiling. Could work out fine, but a few meaningless wins could put us in the future killing 14-18 range. That’s why it is so important to get the L’s now before the trade deadline and we (hopefully) get a lot worse.

    113. Philmelo

      If KP continues to play defense like this and Willy gets all of these minutes we’re in serious trouble here people.

    114. DRed

      A win against the spurs that forestalls the inevitable is fitting on the day spree cane back to the garden

    115. Z-man

      You tank-humpers is crazy. This team is not gonna lose on purpose as currently constructed.

      Tell u something else. If they stand pat at the deadline, it is very likely that they are gonna go on a run. Has any of y’all noticed that they are slowly getting healthy again? During the so-called tank, Melo, Rose, KP, Lee, Lance, and Noah have all been hurt or out.

      Barring trade or injury, this team is gonna win well over 30 games, probably 34-36. My guess is that they will pick between 12-16. The Melo-to-Clippers trade is the only somewhat realistic scenario for a purposeful tank. And I can’t imagine that anyone would hope that one of our players, even Melo or Rose, would get injured.

    116. Z-man

      And how could any Knicks fan be upset with this win? We beat a top-3 team on national TV, our young players played great, and we played great D in crunch time.

    117. dtrickey

      And I can’t imagine that anyone would hope that one of our players, even Melo or Rose, would get injured.

      I think you are underestimating some of the hardcore tankers.

    118. Philmelo

      Melo’s WS/48 is .113. Rose’s is .051! Noah’s is .105. Our record is almost on par with our Pythag number.

      I don’t for one second believe that a starting lineup with these three is going to pick it up without Willy and KP playing a whole lot better.

      I don’t understand how anyone can think this team is worth a lick for anything more than blowing up and tanking.

    119. Bruno Almeida

      I’m upset about wins like this because I don’t want to continue to be upset for the next 5 years.

    120. TheOakmanCometh

      Dolan in the locker room: “I’m really proud of all of you for being so inspired by me. Also, I’m going to need everyone to write a postcard to Charles Oakley telling him what a kind and brilliant man I am, and how my band is really good.”

    121. Z-man

      Oh, I can understand wanting the team to tank. What I don’t understand is deluding oneself into thinking that it is actually happening right now.

      And when healthy, this is a .500 team or slightly below. So with 26 games left, 12-14 seems reasonable, and a final record of 35-47 seems likely. Even if they go 8-18, they still finish 31-51. That’s probably not a bottom 10 record.

    122. JK47

      You gotta give it to the Knicks, they’re incredibly reliable.

      You can count on the 34-win seasons, the meaningless wins to fuck up their draft position, the long-term contracts to washed-up veterans, the terrible defense, the over-reliance on volume scorers, the tawdry front office drama… You can set your watch to this franchise.

      The last good PG will come off the board one pick before the Knicks’ selection, and they’ll end up with Miles Bridges. It’s like it’s foreordained.

    123. Brian Cronin

      Oh, I can understand wanting the team to tank. What I don’t understand is deluding oneself into thinking that it is actually happening right now.

      And when healthy, this is a .500 team or slightly below. So with 26 games left, 12-14 seems reasonable, and a final record of 35-47 seems likely. Even if they go 8-18, they still finish 31-51. That’s probably not a bottom 10 record.

      Oh sure, you know I’m right there with you. I’ve dreaded this all season long, that they’re just good enough to not be bad enough to get a top ten pick. So yes, I agree that the team, as currently constituted, is probably not going to end up tanking. But it is fair enough to hope that it does happen. There’s still a chance that they tank, which is what we should cling to as long as we can. :)

      Do note, people, that Z-Man’s not saying he likes this scenario, just that it is pretty likely. I don’t disagree. They’ve been losing a lot of close games. That’s as unsustainable as all of their early close wins.

    124. JK47

      What’s the worst possible, most irritating, most pointless thing that could happen? Because that is what will happen. This is the First Law of Knicks Basketball.

    125. TheOakmanCometh

      Z-Man, I don’t think for a second that they’re trying to tank. But I appreciate the fact that they’re tanking despite themselves. Today was a setback for that, in a season where it looks like every win will matter. That’s disheartening.

    126. Owen

      We can’t trade Melo if he is hurt.

      I got some pleasure from watching the last five minutes. It was great to see the kids play well. And after all the episodes of Keystone Kops this year they got one right finally. Melo showed why everyone thinks he is a star. When his jump shot is falling he really looks like a top 5 player. But we also really lucked out. That sequence where the Spurs had a fast break, then fumbled it away, culminating in the Melo wide open three, turned a 93-93 game into a 96-91 game. Huge swing.

      It was a good win at least in a lot of ways. But any win hurts.

      Also, it was really fun to watch Kawhi. Hubie, who remains awful, is correct about one thing, it’s a damn tough call for who the top two forwards in the NBA are between Durant, Lebron, and Kawhi.

    127. Brian Cronin

      What’s the worst possible, most irritating, most pointless thing that could happen? Because that is what will happen. This is the First Law of Knicks Basketball.

      Jackson is such an enigma this season that I honestly don’t know what he’s thinking in terms of the tank and/or rebuild. He might legitimately think that this team is a #12 pick and Rose’s cap room away from contending. Hopefully not, but I really don’t know and no one else knows, either. He’s just too hard to read right now besides clearly wanting Melo gone. But is it because he wants to rebuild or is it because he wants to retool? I dunno.

    128. 2FOR18

      Nobody thinks a tank is purposely happening now. Stop being disingenuous. We’re cheering on the comedy of the unintentional tank that’s taking place.

      People are also saying that Phil needs to get on the phone and dump some of our useful players so that we can officially tank, rather than shoot for, at best, a 1st round beat down and the mediocre draft pick that comes with that.

      Come on man, pay attention.

    129. Brian Cronin

      Nobody thinks a tank is purposely happening now. Stop being disingenuous. We’re cheering on the comedy of the unintentional tank that’s taking place.

      People are also aying that Phil needs to get on the phone and dump some of our useful players so that we can officially tank, rather than shoot for, at best, a 1st round beat down and the mediocre draft pick that comes with that.

      Come on man, pay attention.

      There very much have been some posters saying that they’re intentionally tanking, like Horny’s recent comments that sounded like he was down with the tank.

      But yes, most get that it is an “Accidentank” and just hope that Phil turns it into a real tank, like he did back in 2014-15.

    130. Bruno Almeida

      Nobody thinks this team is intentionally tanking, come on.

      we’re just deluding ourselves hoping this team will, for once in 20 years, do the right thing.

      it won’t happen, but at the same time I won’t cherish another stupid 30 win season when a draft with so much potential coming up.

    131. Bruno Almeida

      I would appreciate tho if people stopped trying to tell the “tankers” how they should feel about this crap team “if they were true Knicks fans”

    132. Z-man

      I have no problem expressing that I am annoyed by any Knicks fan who somehow thinks this was a bad win. I haven’t been posting much lately, and the site has been dominated by the tank proponents for weeks. So Bruno et. al. how about chillin out and being tolerant of a few posts that disagree with the hundreds you and others have made ad nauseum over the last month?

      The reality is, the team is not tanking right now, no matter what you say or do, Deal with it.

    133. JK47

      You know, in the big picture I can’t really get too cheesed off about the Knicks winning pointless games to tank their draft positions. It’s like getting mad at the lion for eating the zebra. It’s just nature.

    134. Owen

      Who thinks we are doing this on purpose? That’s the whole tragicomedy of this and every season. The Knicks can’t “be bad for a reason.” (ht: cronin) And they can’t be bad enough by accident.

    135. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      Yeah I’m glad Tim hardaway was able to get a few good wins for us a few years ago too

    136. Bruno Almeida

      @249

      well, I’m pretty chill my friend.

      you have the right to express whatever opinion you want, and the fact that you choose to express it less times than people like me et. al. is also your choice.

    137. 2FOR18

      Shorter z-man:
      I haven’t been posting much during the losing streak that proved everything I said was wrong, but now I’ve decided to crow about a win where the opponent shot 6-29 from 3 and our star pg got 2 assists, and, while I’m at it, rip on the realists, who have been right about this team all season.

    138. Bruno Almeida

      also, the only reasons me et.al. are “dominating” the discussion is because all the people who predicted this sorry ass team would win 50 games and reach the ECF are gone.

      hardly our fault.

    139. Philmelo

      And when healthy, this is a .500 team or slightly below.

      But we’re not. Our pythag winning percentage was sub .500 even when we were winning in December. We’ve just regressed to the mean.

    140. Z-man

      What’s also silly is assuming that tanking is automatically better than playing well. There are lots of ways for a tank to unfold negatively. One possible way is for KP to blow out his back, or to regress and become more Bargnani than Dirk. Are you hoping for that? And what happens if we tank and draft the next OJ Mayo, or Okafor? Why is accidentally tanking better than accidentally drafting Kahwi Leonard or Myles Turner?

      All I care about this season is that KP and WHG stay healthy and continue to make progress, and winning, especially when they contribute like they did today, is good for them. I’m going to continue to root for the team to win until they go all 2014-15 on us.

    141. Z-man

      Yeah I’m glad Tim hardaway was able to get a few good wins for us a few years ago too

      Yeah, right, same exact situation.

      Sheesh.

    142. Philmelo

      Guys, don’t worry. We’re still pretty horrible. Unless KP plays unbelievable shutdown defense like he did tonight, Willy gets serious minutes, and our opponents miss tons of open shots we’ll be alright with the Tank. But we’re not going to achieve or minimum potential in the Futile Five with wins like this.

    143. Philmelo

      One possible way is for KP to blow out his back, or to regress and become more Bargnani than Dirk. Are you hoping for that? And what happens if we tank and draft the next OJ Mayo, or Okafor? Why is accidentally tanking better than accidentally drafting Kahwi Leonard or Myles Turner?

      Doesn’t matter, because regardless of whatever scenario you propose the alternative is near certain if we don’t tank and continue to play with this washed up, overpaid core. We will lose, be irrelevant, and have nothing to build around KP with when Melo leaves. Tanking might not be our best way, but its the only logical way. At best, with this team, we’re an 8th seed getting crushed by the Cavaliers in the first round. That’s the reality.

    144. Frank O.

      Willy is our starting center. KP is better when Willy is there.
      Lee has put probably some of his best basketball together.
      I like our young guns a lot.

    145. Bruno Almeida

      honestly, people have made this argument a million of times already.

      yes, Kawhi was drafted 15th.

      wanna know how many talents of his type were drafted 15th or lower ever since?

      Butler (30th), Thomas(60th), Giannis (15th), Draymond (35th).

      yeah, the list is over.

      drafting a high pick gives you a MUCH better chance to find better players, and all those 5 players were also available if someone had recognized their talents and had s higher draft pick.

      using exceptions like Kawhi is REALLY silly.

    146. Philmelo

      @263

      The argument is moronic considering that we can have both a lottery pick and later pick if the FO decides to trade a KOQ and get a mid-first rounder.

    147. Z-man

      @256 So, when we were healthy, we overperformed our Pythag, When we got injured, we underperformed it. Result: we are right at the number. Now we are getting healthy again.

      At our current pythag, our projection for the season is 33.7 wins. (33 x 82 / 56). If we went .500 we’d be at 36-46, slightly above pythag. If we were slightly below .500 (11-15) , we’d be right at pythag.

    148. Bruno Almeida

      and what happens if we draft OJ Mayo?

      nothing, the team is still old, bad and hoping for KP to turn into Dirk the same way.

      I’d still rather have 50% of a chance at OJ Mayo than 95% of a chance to get Maurice Harkless.

    149. Philmelo

      @256 So, when we were healthy, we overperformed our Pythag, When we got injured, we underperformed it. Result: we are right at the number. Now we are getting healthy again.

      We’ll see. Right now our pythag has us 7th worse in the league. We should be lower on the totem pole.

    150. Philmelo

      Though I do agree that we’ll need help with our tank. Getting rid of KOQ, Lee, and eventually Melo will help get us into the Futile Five.

    151. JK47

      The Knicks have been relatively close to full health all season. They have several key players who are old and past their primes. Those guys will have some healthier stretches, then they’ll have stretches when they play like the banged-up bunch of old geezers that they are.

      I would say overall that the Knicks have enjoyed quite good injury luck on the season considering the brittleness of Melo, Rose and Noah. The latter two especially are not horses who are going to give you lots of healthy and productive minutes.

    152. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      We could easily have 30 wins so far this year. We’re that good. It takes time to put an entire team together with a new coach too. Plus we’ve been unlucky. Very unlucky. Plus all those injuries. I think we have better talent than the Spurs do and the cream will eventually rise to the top.
      I don’t really see much difference between drafting an inexperienced point guard who can’t shoot or drafting Bridges or Giles.

    153. Z-man

      @254 if that’s your interpretation, then you have reading comprehension problems. I’m not crowing about anything. I’m just saying I enjoyed a win vs. a top-3 team, and that I will continue to root for our players to play as well and as intelligeltly as possible, win or lose. If the team decides to bench, cut or trade players like they did in 2014-15 then I will still root for the remaining players to play as well as they can, knowing that they will likely lose on most nights. If the GM and/or coach prefer to tank, in my world, that’s on them and not on the players. As to Hardaway, anyone who thinks that a player of any sport should purposely dog it for “the better of the team’s future” is an complete asshole.

      What I’m saying is that I’d be okay with Phil having a fire-sale, or with Phil telling Hornacek to bench Melo, Rose and Lee to let the kids and scrubs play. But I expect every player to play to win every minute he is on the court. Today the Knicks played to win and Hornacek coached to win. And they won. I can’t fault them for that, and would feel dirty if I did.

    154. Philmelo

      Reub On Our Way To Greatness
      February 12, 2017 at 8:17 pm
      We could easily have 30 wins so far this year. We’re that good. It takes time to put an entire team together with a new coach too. Plus we’ve been unlucky. Very unlucky. Plus all those injuries. I think we have better talent than the Spurs do and the cream will eventually rise to the top.
      I don’t really see much difference between drafting an inexperienced point guard who can’t shoot or drafting Bridges or Giles.

      LOL.

      Reub On Our Way To Greatness
      February 11, 2017 at 10:34 am
      The problem with the press being all over the team while we’re tanking is that they won’t understand the tank as well as some of us do.

    155. Bruno Almeida

      nobody ever said that a player should be asked to intentionally miss shots or turn the ball over.

      what I want is for Phil to trade Melo, try to get whatever value he can out of O’Quinn and rest KP as much as he needs to get 100% healthy for next season.

      that would make the team intentionally worse now and potentially better in the future and that’s “tanking” for me.

    156. DRed

      Z-man is pretty much right. We could trade Melo, Lee and O’Quinn for scraps/picks and probably still win 31-34 games. It would be very difficult for this team to totally tank if reasonably healthy, because there are too many decent players on it.

    157. djphan

      porzingis missing games and subsequently sucking after he came back has done more to hurt our record than any single thing this season… rose missing games has also hurt us since we’ve had to depend on baker to fill those minutes…

      we shouldn’t expect to be healthier but i also expect our team to look different after the deadline….

    158. Bruno Almeida

      and honestly what is really freaking silly is to expect a team with Rose / Noah / Melo and an overall average age of 29 in the starting lineup to NOT have injury issues.

      the Knicks have been really lucky with injuries, Melo has played 55 out of 56 games, KP has played 48, Rose 47, Lee 51 and Noah 46.

      how is that bad injury luck, when all those players are either old or have had injury issues their entire careers?

    159. Philmelo

      Everyone saying how this is a 33 win team is going to feel real bad after another couple of shitty loses. Its the same thing with every win. There is always someone ready to overlook the many problems on this team when everything goes right and we manage to squeak a win out of our asses. But then they stop with the foolishness the moment the team is exposed in the most embarrassing of ways.

    160. dtrickey

      @254 if that’s your interpretation, then you have reading comprehension problems. I’m not crowing about anything. I’m just saying I enjoyed a win vs. a top-3 team, and that I will continue to root for our players to play as well and as intelligeltly as possible, win or lose. If the team decides to bench, cut or trade players like they did in 2014-15 then I will still root for the remaining players to play as well as they can, knowing that they will likely lose on most nights. If the GM and/or coach prefer to tank, in my world, that’s on them and not on the players. As to Hardaway, anyone who thinks that a player of any sport should purposely dog it for “the better of the team’s future” is an complete asshole.

      What I’m saying is that I’d be okay with Phil having a fire-sale, or with Phil telling Hornacek to bench Melo, Rose and Lee to let the kids and scrubs play. But I expect every player to play to win every minute he is on the court. Today the Knicks played to win and Hornacek coached to win. And they won. I can’t fault them for that, and would feel dirty if I did.

      I would tend to agree. Nothing wrong with enjoying a win. We all know the value of tanking, but to expect players to actively throw in the towel is pretty difficult. I think the problem some people are having is that we always ultimately end up in no man’s land, hence “rooting” for losses and the tank. Nothing wrong with that either. Just that it is up to the GM to put the team in a position to lose rather than on the players and coaches for my mind.

    161. Philmelo

      The point isn’t that you should remit from enjoying the win. The point is that you should be more dissatisfied with the fact that our tank took a major blow today. The shortsightedness of this mentality is really disturbing the way a chain smoker is happy when they take a puff on a cigarette while ignoring the long-term ramification of emphysema.

    162. Bruno Almeida

      @280

      and to think Malone was playing Nurkic over Jokic in the beginning of the season… my goodness.

    163. Z-man

      @274, I have no problem with that scenario, except for the resting KP part, unless by resting you mean play hem 32 mpg and not 40.

      What’s silly to me is that I am pretty sure you know that this is not a bottom 1-5 team when healthy (to clarify for JK47, meaning that Melo, Lee, Rose and KP are all close to 100%, which has not been the case for most of the last 25 games or so.) This team is more fragile than most, not having a bonafide star and having a weak bench. So hoping for them as currently constructed to tank is essentially rooting for injury, lack of young-player development, or dysfunction. All three were evident during their recent losing ways, so maybe it continues, but today it all came together for them and I, for one, am glad that it did.

    164. Bruno Almeida

      the KP part I mean is that I think he might still be bothered by the achilles thing, so he should take games off if it is necessary for the injury to heal 100%, not 90%.

      I know this is not a bottom 5 team in the league, that’s why my hope is that trades make sure that we can at least reach the top 8 of the lottery.

      I don’t think KP or Willy’s development would be more hurt playing alongside Crawford, Rivers or Holiday in the starting lineup and losing 7 more games, than it is being hurt right now with Rose, Melo and O’Quinn… if he is a superstar level player he will develop into one if the Knicks win 26 games or if they win 33.

    165. DRed

      Everyone saying how this is a 33 win team is going to feel real bad after another couple of shitty loses.

      This team has been mediocre all season long. Look at our schedule. 9-10 more wins doesn’t seem that fanciful.

    166. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Purposely losing and drafting a point guard who barely knows how to play his position and can’t shoot or playing to win with your head up high and drafting Bridges or Giles? No brainer.

      Winners don’t lose intentionally.

    167. Philmelo

      This team has been mediocre all season long. Look at our schedule. 9-10 more wins doesn’t seem that fanciful.

      We have the 7th worse Pythag score. Sorry, but that’s not “mediocre,” its pretty fucking bad. If we’re not at least 7th overall pick with a record that bad I will be pretty pissed off.

    168. 2FOR18

      There’s a lot of talking past each other going on.

      To be clear, the pro tankers are not saying that:

      1) the team is currently tanking on purpose

      Nor

      2) the players should try to lose

      Nor

      3) tanking guarantees the drafting of a franchise player.

      The problem tankers are saying that:

      1) the satus quo is the NBA purgatory of 30 to 40 wins and mid round draft picks

      And

      2) the only way to get off the treadmill of #1) is for Phil to get on the phone and dump Melo, Lee, O’Quinn and rose for picks and shitty short term contracts.

    169. Philmelo

      Purposely losing and drafting a point guard who barely knows how to play his position and can’t shoot or playing to win with your head up high and drafting Bridges or Giles? No brainer.

      What the Hell are you even talking about here?

    170. JK47

      Purposely losing and drafting a point guard who barely knows how to play his position and can’t shoot or playing to win with your head up high and drafting Bridges or Giles? No brainer.

      Purposely losing and drafting Steph Curry instead of playing with your head up high and drafting Jordan Hill? No brainer.

      Purposely losing and drafting Karl-Anthony Towns instead of playing with your head up high and drafting Kristaps Porzingis? No brainer.

      Purposely losing and drafting… AHHH FUCK IT

    171. Z-man

      I have more reading comp issues to correct. I am not saying that the Knicks have been unlucky with injuries, only that they have, in fact, have had either Melo (knee, shoulder) KP (achilles) Rose (ankle) Lee (wrist) compromised or out for much of this stretch, as well as Noah and Lance. They are an extremely thin, fragile team, which was factored in to the thinking about their overall record. What I’m saying is that then they are fully healthy or clost to it, they are around a .500 team.

    172. Philmelo

      We have a bunch of games left against Indy, Orlando, Philly & the Nets.

      We must lose them at all costs.

    173. JK47

      Everybody get ready for the 2017-2018 juggernaut, with Jrue Holiday and Courtney Lee leading the backcourt, Carmelo Anthony back at the 3, Kristaps Porzingis at PF, Joakim Noah on the bench in a suit and the electrifying Miles Bridges reminding us on a daily basis that we would have been better off tanking.

      That team should win about 34 games.

    174. Bruno Almeida

      the problem with that argument z-man is precisely that it contradicts pythagorean expectations and those are very rarely off by this much.

      this team is over performing the pythag even with all the issues you have pointed out, which is a sign of lucky wins.

      you might be right, but I won’t believe until it happens.

    175. 2FOR18

      @291. It’s funny that it’s everyone else who can’t read, not you who can’t properly express himself.
      You’re playing around with semantics while in fact you’re actually not disagreeing much once you get to your third attempt to explain where your head is at re: the Knicks’ situation.

    176. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      We’ve had our defensive heart and soul Lance Thomas injured for almost the entire season. If he’s back now he’s trouble. We can still do this.

      We’ve been so unlucky.

    177. Z-man

      Purgatory or not, it was virtually guaranteed that we’s be there (and no better) the moment we traded for Rose and signed Noah. Only injury or dysfunction would make a tank even a possibility. And you couldn’t have much more dysfunction than the Knicks have had recently.

      But on the other hand, the losing and dysfunction might have scared suitors away from Melo…he’s a coach-killing leopard who won’t change his spots….so the only remaining option is the Clips, and Melo has to play well enough to convince them that he’s worth it. Which he probably has done the last 10 games or so (except for the Cavs game, ugh!)

      But if the team stands pat at the deadline, the logical outcome will be a playoff push. And it just might be the case that once the deadline passes, the team plays more games like the one we saw today.

    178. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Z man, we’re still a new team learning a new system and each other. Becoming great is a process.

      It could take years.

    179. TheOakmanCometh

      Coaches and players don’t tank. Front offices do.

      I expect the players to try to win and Hornacek to put them in position to win. I also hope Phil will trade players for future assets, and insist that any injured player sit out until 102% healthy.

      In the meantime, I hope luck favors us with losses in close games.

    180. Z-man

      Also, I don’t want to hear about how we were “lucky” to win today because the Spurs fucked up. Unless all those 7 games we recently lost by 1-4 points were “unlucky” losses. The Knicks played winning basketball today.

    181. TheOakmanCometh

      What makes The Tank so imperative right now is that the #4 pick is riiiiight there for the taking.

    182. Philmelo

      What makes The Tank so imperative right now is that the #4 pick is riiiiight there for the taking.

      This. We’re just a few wins away. I can’t believe anyone would trade the chance at an Isaac for a few more measly wins.

    183. JK47

      Meaningless wins are a big part of what we do here. I’m not going to sit here and kick meaningless wins to the curb.

    184. Z-man

      Meaningless whining over great wins in a hopelessly unlikely quest for a tank is a big part of what we do here.

    185. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Orlando lost by 40 points to the Mavs recently and might be moving Ibaka. We’re not catching them so we’ll have to tank for a non-shooting PG or Monk or Smith. Or we could continue the process of becoming a winning team and get a Bridges or Giles or somebody that Phil and Gaines have their eye on.

    186. 2FOR18

      The tank plan gives some of us hope. We only have 11 days left to have this plan executed, and lucky, meaningless wins like today’s give Phil and Melo more reason not to execute the tank plan.

    187. DRed

      depending on where you look our pythag has us at 21 or 22 wins, so it’s not really accurate to say we’ve been overperforming.

    188. JK47

      I’m not whining so much as I’m pointing and laughing at the futile nature of the whole situation. I mean, this shit is actually kind of funny. Kind of like how it’s funny how the Coyote never catches the Road Runner, you know? The repetition is what makes it funny. Today’s game was just another ACME rocket exploding in the Coyote’s face.

    189. er

      This site sucks now. When I came 6 long years ago it was full of insight and humor. Now it’s just constant bitching about something.

      Melo sucks, rose sucks, poor KP blah blah fucking blah.

      The Knicks were fucking blown out by the lakers and lost to a short handed nuggets team.

      Did you fucking miss that?!?! So what they beat the spurs. Fuck

    190. Philmelo

      er complaining that everyone else here whines is like Carmelo complaining about a lack of defense. Its like KP complaining about the high number of fouls in a game. Its like Dolan complaining about a lack of class. Like Phil complaining someone else is weird.

    191. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      If Phil really pushes for this team to make the playoffs I will be utterly speechless

      He can’t be *that* dumb, right?

    192. Philmelo

      He can’t be *that* dumb, right?

      I mean, he did try to trade Melo so I assume he’s invested in tanking.

    193. KnickfaninNJ

      That box score was one of the oddest I’ve seen in a long time. The Spurs took so many more shots than the Knicks, but shot so much worse. They did get more offensive rebounds than the Knicks, but that’s probably due to so many more rebound opportunities being available because of their misses. The other factor in them having more shots seems to steals and turnovers. They had eight fewer turnovers and six more steals than we did.

    194. 2FOR18

      I get a kick out er’s schizophrenic switches from passive aggressive “lol yeah it’s melos fault” posts to fits of impotent rage and name calling posts.

    195. 2FOR18

      Forget that box score showing that the spurs had 21 offensive rebounds and shot 6 of 29 from 3 and forced 20 turnovers. I have it on good authority that the knicks played shutdown defense today and had it all working on both sides of the ball.

    196. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      @319 Maybe, but do we want to tank for Ricky Rubio Jr.? For a guy who can’t shoot and hasn’t even proven Ricky’s bonafides on defense and passing?

    197. Brian Cronin

      I mean, he did try to trade Melo so I assume he’s invested in tanking.

      I think even there, it would depend on who he was looking to get. He might legitimately think he can improve on the team in the here and the now by dealing Melo. But yes, him looking to trade Melo does appear like a good sign that he is down with rebuilding.

    198. thenoblefacehumper

      So we’re back to 10th. There’s not really any way around it, all wins are bad. We’ve seen this play a million times. The 2014-2015 threads after awful wins were chock full of the “real fan” crowd. I hope the memories of Tim Hardaway Jr. and Jason Smith fueled wins are enough of a consolation for not having Karl Anthony Towns.

      It is what it is. The Knicks will continue to only thrive in games they should absolutely not be winning. This draft has a pretty steep drop off after the 8th pick, but hey, I’ll never forget that time the Spurs missed a bunch of bunnies and we won our 23rd game of the season in February. I’ll tell my kids about it.

    199. Philmelo

      Meanwhile, Lonzo Ball scored 22 points, 9 assists, and 7 rebounds. But that will never happen for us because we had to win a game against a hungover jet lagged Spurs team in another failed quest for an 8th seed.

    200. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      The dropoff is after the third or fourth pick and we really never had a chance for Ball. There’s a very good possibility that the 5th pick and the 12th will be comparable.

    201. thenoblefacehumper

      Reub you decided that on your own to justify maintaining your shtick. Ball, Fultz, Isaac, Fox, Smith Jr., Jackson, Tatum, and Monk are the obvious standouts (I’m low on the last two but whatever). After them it’s difficult to see the Knicks getting a player that does much of anything to alter their status as a mediocre dumpster fire. I’m sure there will be diamonds in the rough, surprises, etc. after those guys that we’ll make sure not to pick.

    202. djphan

      the top 7 is pretty damn good but that doesn’t mean that they’ll all go in the top 7… guys like markannen or giles or monk or ntilikina can sneak in and all of a sudden #10 isn’t bad…

      and miles bridges isn’t horrible…. i’ve actually warmed up to him a lot…. he’s sort of like tobias harris… and rates about the same as justise winslow… could be a lot better than both since his offense is better…. justin patton i think will eventually play himself into the top 10 also… he’s been impressive….

      but after the top 10 or 12 it becomes really bad for the knicks… both in terms of quality and positions.. it’s a lot of soso pf/c types… but i think we’re fairly locked into draft positioning from #9 to 11 so we’d have to go on a decent win streak to endanger that… no need to panic from one win just yet…

    203. KnickfaninNJ

      I really wish this site would go back to discussing statistics more. I couldn’t see the actual game and would like to read actual discussion of it, but the details of actual Knick results don’t seem to be of interest here anymore.

    204. Reub On Our Way To Greatness

      Djphan, the only problem with having the 11th pick and not the 6th is that instead of drafting a guard who has flaws we might have to draft a forward who has flaws. I’m hoping that Nitilikina might drop with his flaws and being overseas. I believe that he’s not playing much point guard, has had limited minutes, and isn’t scoring or assisting much. He might be a nice pickup for us without intentionally tanking.

    205. JK47

      I really wish this site would go back to discussing statistics more. I couldn’t see the actual game and would like to read actual discussion of it, but the details of actual Knick results don’t seem to be of interest here anymore.

      The Spurs missed a LOT of easy bunnies and shot horribly from 3-point range. The Knicks were, as usual, pathetic on the defensive glass, which led to the Spurs getting 91 FGA to the Knicks’ 68, but the Knicks shot for a .566 eFG%, so they were able to squeak out a win. Defensive rotations didn’t look all that much better to me, the Spurs just missed a lot of easy shots. Porzingis was the best player on the floor for the Knicks, he played some pretty good defense. Still only snagged 7 boards despite the fact that the Spurs were missing tons of shots the entire game. He had 4 blocks though, and he did score 16 points on 10 FGA.

    206. KnickfaninNJ

      Thanks. That is helpful. I would comment t that the Knicks aren’t always awful on the defensive glass. For example, Boston has big troubled with our rebounding.

    207. thenoblefacehumper

      I would love to get back to discussing the ins and outs of the team. The problem is that requires a team worth discussing at length. This group is just so uninteresting that it’s hard to even care. I’m sure someone could write a 4,000 word post about how we’d win 39 games instead of 34 if Courtney Lee shot more or something, but it just feels like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic right now.

      The fastest way to our next intriguing team is the top of the draft. Ball/Fultz/Isaac etc. would renew interest. Miles Bridges wouldn’t. The more meaningless games we win, the further away we get from having a team worth discussing.

    208. er

      I get a kick out er’s schizophrenic switches from passive aggressive “lol yeah it’s melos fault” posts to fits of impotent rage and name calling posts

      Eh it’s because I’m am a Knick fan. I have definitely lost my mind

      I sometimes drive down the street yelling. It’s sad lol

    209. iserp

      So we’re back to 10th. There’s not really any way around it, all wins are bad. We’ve seen this play a million times. The 2014-2015 threads after awful wins were chock full of the “real fan” crowd. I hope the memories of Tim Hardaway Jr. and Jason Smith fueled wins are enough of a consolation for not having Karl Anthony Towns.

      Why KAT and not Okafor?

      You are all acting as the draft is such a sure thing…. I’d rather win a meaningless game and see a nice development of KP and Willy than lose but having my young players regress. This is a game we should cheer for.

    210. Philmelo

      You are all acting as the draft is such a sure thing….

      Why do people continue to repeat the same bullshit? No, its true that the draft isn’t sure. What is sure is the fact that we will continue to fail if we don’t at least attempt a rebuild. The best to do that is to have the best shot at acquiring first in a talented draft.

    211. Z-man

      I wonder if bloggers of all the other mediocre teams not obviously tanking are crying as hard as the ones here. There has to be at least 10 teams within a couple of games of us who could blow things up rather than pursue an 8th seed and a sure first round exit, e.g. Miami, Dallas, Indiana, Detroit, Charlotte, NO, etc.

    212. Philmelo

      @340

      If the bloggers rooting for these mediocre teams had one playoff series win in 17 seasons they’d be crying even worse about rebuilding. Of the teams you mention Miami, Dallas, and Detroit have won championships in that span. And the other three in Indiana (George), Charlotte (Walker) and New Orleans (Davis) have an All-Star player this season. We have neither. Its time to tank.

    213. Z-man

      @341 Thanks for confirming that you have PTSD and are incapable of being rational about this issue. Who the F cares whether the team has won recently, or whether they have fringe or oft-injured all-stars? WHAT”S BEST FOR THE TEAM? IF IT”S TANKING, WHY AREN”T THEY DOING IT?

    214. Bruno Almeida

      at least the Dallas bloggers who I’ve seen are extremely pissed that Cuban apparently won’t allow their team to tank.

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