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Monday, March 25, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2016.11.28)

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis: Knicks’ ‘mindset’ at root of slow road starts
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 10:32:54 AM)

    The trend of road losses for the Knicks is something Kristaps Porzingis believes starts with the right mindset.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks, Porzingis can take lessons from Saturday’s loss
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 9:51:29 AM)

    In what was a decent enough game for Kristaps Porzingis, he left Frank Kaminsky open to sink two heart-wrenching daggers from long range

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks continue to struggle on road
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 7:27:30 AM)

    With the chance to sweep a home-and-home with the Hornets, the Knicks fell in Charlotte in the back end on Saturday.

  • [NYPost] Carmelo: Why Westbrook re-upped (and made Knicks a pipe dream)
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 5:26:17 PM)

    Within minutes of Kevin Durant’s stunning decision to leave Oklahoma City for the Bay area last July, speculation flew that Russell Westbrook would follow suit in the summer of 2017. And there had been rumblings Westbrook had an affection for New York City — given his fashionista persona and all. With point guard Derrick Rose…

  • [NYPost] Rising Derrick Rose is ready for Russell Westbrook — finally
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 12:13:20 PM)

    Derrick Rose knocked on the steel of his black locker cubicle late Saturday night in Charlotte. Rose’s good-luck pat wasn’t because Hurricane Westbrook was swirling into New York, but that the Knicks point guard will be 100 percent healthy for Monday’s Garden battle against the NBA’s leading MVP candidate. Through 16 games, there’s been no…

  • [ESPN] Monday’s Knicks News: Westbrook provides next test for Rose
    (Monday, November 28, 2016 6:08:19 AM)

    Monday’s Knicks News: Westbrook provides next test for Rose

  • [ESPN] NBA Rumor Central: Phil Jackson to return to Lakers?
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 9:52:15 PM)

    NBA Rumor Central: Phil Jackson to return to Lakers?

  • [NY Newsday] Scorching Russell Westbrook comes to MSG as Knicks get set to face Thunder
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 8:04:17 PM)

    Breaking up is hard to do, but Russell Westbrook is doing just fine without Kevin Durant and often leaves his opponents feeling hurt.

  • [NYDN] Joakim Noah knows he needs to play better for Knicks
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 9:58:45 AM)

    Noah’s disappointing start in New York has included injury, offensive ineffectiveness, illness and long stretches on the bench.

  • [NYDN] Knicks, Carmelo Anthony blow opportunity in Hornets loss
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 8:48:33 AM)

    The Knicks fell to 1-6 on the road.

  • [NYDN] Russell Westbrook bringing his show, loyalty to MSG vs. Knicks
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 7:50:50 AM)

    It was only four months ago when Russell Westbrook was the biggest free agent of the 2017 class.

  • [NYDN] Derrick Rose shows poise in paint but jump shots still need work
    (Sunday, November 27, 2016 7:21:19 AM)

    For much of his career, Derrick Rose’s health and ability to finish at the rim went hand-in-hand.

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    76 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2016.11.28)

    1. Frank

      Melo’s been really awful on the 2nd day of back to backs. Maybe Hornacek needs to figure out how to stagger his minutes better in those games. It was pretty disappointing for us to lose the Charlotte with them being down 2 starters, and letting Jeremy Lamb go nuts.

      by the way – some awesomeness by way of John Schumann’s twitter account. if you go to the NBA.com stats pages, the box scores have video links for each of the stats – ie. you can now click to see video of whatever stat you’re looking at. For example here are all of Demarcus Cousins’s made shots yesterday.

    2. ptmilo

      by the way – some awesomeness by way of John Schumann’s twitter account. if you go to the NBA.com stats pages, the box scores have video links for each of the stats – ie. you can now click to see video of whatever stat you’re looking at. For example here are all of Demarcus Cousins’s made shots yesterday.

      it was awesome when it first came out years ago, it’s less awesome since it suddenly disappeared and just now came back. nba.com and league pass have both taken a big step back this year.

    3. d-mar

      Love this quote from Evan Turner:

      “Some Previous Coaches ‘Didn’t Comprehend My Game'”

      You need a freakin’ Enigma machine to figure out Evan Turner’s game

    4. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, he’s a terrible shooter, never gets to the line and is not a great defender, so there’s not much to comprehend lol.

      But yeah, it’s the coaches’ fault Evan, you could have been a superstar!

    5. Frank O.

      I realize it is tough winning back to back v. the same team, but this was a lost opportunity.
      The team fought back from a 21 pt deficit.
      The fact that Melo and Rose were icy cold should mean the Knicks could looks elsewhere to take some big shots down the stretch.
      We have other weapons. There was a lot of one on one going on as well. It happens with tired players.
      Frustrating loss.
      Would prefer seeing Kuz shooting 3s down the stretch rather than Holliday.
      Would prefer Jennings running with KP and Kuz down the stretch, with Melo as decoy down the stretch.
      Coach needs to adapt when his go-to guys are flagging.
      8-8 is better than I thought possible at this point. December has a lot of winnable games.
      I truly believe Noah will hit his stride and become a solid C.
      Another thing to consider: make KP the center and Noah the 4. I think KP will be better against 5s than stretch 4s.

    6. d-mar

      I realize it is tough winning back to back v. the same team, but this was a lost opportunity.

      It really was, with Charlotte missing 2 starters and reeling from a 4 game losing streak. If we really are going to win 45+ games this season, we need to take advantage of these opportunities. We haven’t gone on a Western trip yet, and those can escalate into prolonged losing streaks pretty quickly.

      On the other hand, I don’t think anyone counted on the great Frank Kaminsky and rebounding machine Jeremy Lamb to step up like they did.

    7. er

      I saw Lamb had 17 rebounds and thought it was a glitch with the NBA app. It was smart of Clifford to keep him in the back pocket to be fresh for the second game

    8. JK47

      The Knicks’ team eFG% is slowly regressing to the mean– they’re 19th in the league in offensive eFG% now after lurking around the top 10 for a while.

    9. GoNyGoNyGo

      smh,

      Every loss is a lost opportunity, but this game was not a game I thought they would win. I was very frustrated with that first quarter but I give the Knicks credit for making it a game. This team is good but not great. They are still coming together. Good teams start becoming great when they dominate the home court and split on the road. We’re starting to do the first but have to learn how to win on the road.

      I predict that they lose tonight and split with the T-Wolves and defeat the Kings. (2-2 the next 4 games). If they go 3-1 it would be great, but I don’t expect it.

    10. swiftandabundant

      Sure it was an opportunity lost. But back to backs against the same team are tough. And yes they didn’t have 2 players but could we not argue that Noah is not 100 percent right now and that is affecting us?

      How we react tonight will be key. OKC at home after a day off and after losing. We win tonight and it shows resilence. We lose then it shows the recent good play might be a mirage.

      Still thinking we’re in so much better shape than we were when Phil took over. All of our draft picks going forward. Cap space next year. A rising star with KP. Young/early prime pieces on good contracts like Willie H, KQ, Kuz, Holiday (N’Dour, Ron). The pessimism here is weird. The idea that you can put together a team of 20 year olds that were all drafted in the lottery and all peak together so you have this massive window to compete is absurd. Most teams are a mix of youth and veterans, underpaid and overpaid guys. You have guys that outplay their contracts and guys that are overpaid but give the team something it lacks. That’s just how it works. And we can add to KP and Willie H while still being competitive and winning games. Its good for KP to be on a team that actually wins as many or more games than it loses. People keep saying what great shape Philly is in but when do the results start to actually matter?

    11. DRed

      We are extremely foul prone and Russell Westbrook is coming to town. Not sure what the answer for his one is.

    12. DRed

      Most teams are a mix of youth and veterans, underpaid and overpaid guys. You have guys that outplay their contracts and guys that are overpaid but give the team something it lacks. That’s just how it works. And we can add to KP and Willie H while still being competitive and winning games.

      There’s more than one path to the mountain top, but you’re not wrong with this. We already had that team last year, though, and we got older and locked up more future money for no real improvement in the talent level that I can see. Rose & Jennings are one year rentals, Noah and Lee aren’t big enough improvements this year on the guys they replaced, and they’re likely to keep getting worse.

    13. Frank O.

      I think Westbrook is going to get his triple double It’s the rest of the team that matters. The Knicks need to limit what the rest of OKC does.
      I also think Rose should make this a defensive focused game. He will need to contain Westbrook, unless the Knicks assign Lee to guard Westbrook, which might actually be a good match-up.

      The difference makers will be if Melo and KP both have strong games together. If we can get both guys going in the same game, the Knicks will be hard to beat.
      Knicks defensive rotations also seem much better at home.

      Another key to this game will be if good Noah shows up.

      Again this game will hinge on everyone else but Westbrook. He is going to be a monster. But he can’t succeed alone.

    14. SJK

      +1 DRed. I’m pretty happy with our team overall this year but it does feel like we could’ve just run back our team and added Lee + Jennings + someone else instead of Rose + Lee + Noah and we’d be just as good.

      The flip side to that is it is fucking awesome how well KP is playing.

    15. DS

      I wonder if Boston would throw in a 2016 rookie if we swapped Noah for Amir Johnson plus someone to make the contracts work… Boston needs some rebounding help (Avery Bradley is leading the team). Maybe the fact that Noah and Horford won a national championship together means they would mesh well… I don’t like Noah’s contract and wouldn’t mind seeing his minutes just go to KOQ and Willy-Billy.

    16. Theo

      If we could make Melo, Noah, Rose and Lee disappear, along with their contracts, the Knicks would be a young and promising team on the upswing, centered around Porzingis.

      70M go into four players who don’t make the team that much better. If that’s not inept management…

    17. Bruno Almeida

      Melo Noah Rose and Lee have clearly made this team better, the question, as always with the Knicks is: how much better, and for how long?

      the knicks could very well be next year in a position where Rose re-signs, Noah is older and worse, our first rounder is a low impact mid 20s guy and the team is left with little to no cap space and in the same position… or worse if Melo’s athleticism keeps fading and he fails to somehow reinvent his game.

      that’s the problem… as of now, this is a team around the 40 wins level that is enjoyable to watch.

      unless one of the younger players take an improbable huge leap, the near future seems not very bright.

    18. DRed

      I wonder if Rose is introspective enough to understand he’s matching up against the Derrick Rose that could have been tonight.

    19. JK47

      Melo Noah Rose and Lee have clearly made this team better, the question, as always with the Knicks is: how much better, and for how long?

      The real question is, better than what? Better than last year’s team? Uh, whoop de doo?

      Noah is not a substantial upgrade over RoLo, he is a lateral move at best, and he’s more expensive and older than Noah and his contract runs for one year longer. Lee is not a substantial upgrade over Afflalo, at least not so far. He’s pretty similar as an offensive player and as hard as I squint my eyes I can’t see the supposed defensive impact that Lee brings to the table. Despite all of the missed shots I’ll give Rose the benefit of the doubt and say he’s a marginal upgrade over Calderon. He also costs about $13M more than Calderon.

      This team seems to be slightly better than last year’s team, and the obvious reason for that is the development of the tall skinny guy who wears #6.

    20. Knew Your Nicks

      As for the way that i’d like the Knicks to go ahead ?
      I prefer the “Spurs way” rather than the Sixershit.

    21. Bruno Almeida

      I agree 100% jk47, i’m considering Rose’s expiring contract a part of the “better” equation.

      it’s pretty much impossible to be worse than last years team and the future potential got only worse.

    22. Bruno Almeida

      the spurs way includes getting gifted Duncan (we did get KP in that sense), finding two euro stars in the bottom of the draft and having a legendary coach.

      there’s a reason why no team has been able to replicate that model.

    23. swiftandabundant

      Hey, maybe Willie H is our euro star we found in the bottom of the draft? Or Kuz? These guys have played in less than 20 NBA games. Were Ginobli and Parker instantly stars in the NBA?

      Kuz is older so he’s probably is what he is at this point. But Willie H is KP’s age. So for all we know he could turn into a starting caliber player or even an all star caliber player? We might have our starting C and PF for the next 12 years on our roster all ready.

      Guys are so quick to put a cap on the future of this team. When Phil took over we had one draft pick in the next 3 drafts. We now have all of our picks plus multiple second rounders in every draft going forward. Plus KP and Willie H on the roster. Decent contracts/role players with Holiday, KQ and Kuz.

      Melo, Rose, Noah and Lee will not all be here forever. Rose expires after this year. Melo has 2 years left after this season and for all we know if we don’t do great this year, he waives that trade clause and he’s gonna be still worth some assets if we do trade him. Noah looks bad right now but dang give the guy a break. He had the flu. More than anything he appears winded and not in game shape. That will change hopefully. And maybe we get lucky and can amnesty him. Lee won’t be an albatross at all. Tradeable valuable guy. Jennings has been nice and maybe we don’t resign Rose and resign Jennings, get another PG in the draft, develop Randle some more. Who knows?

      I get being realistic and rational. But at the same time future wise we’re in much better shape than we were 2 years ago. Enjoy the ride.

    24. bobneptune

      I think Jennings was the best player on the floor vs Charlotte the other night and things went into the crapper when he came out early in the 4th quarter. His intensity was contagious

      A major problem on the horizon is reigning in Melo and Rose when they don’t have it for the evening. Tnere was zero reason for Melo to take so many fall away J’s when it was obvious he had no lift (likely as a result of the B to B’s). That is an issue that must be addressed by the coach, Melo and management. We realize it is in star player’s DNA to shoot their way out of slumps, but sometimes you have to play within the team concept in order to win…. especially when you don’t have it that night.

      If that isn’t addressed, the ceiling is 43 games.

      As far as Noah, the guy missed most of last year, all of training camp with a hammy and then gets the flu bad enough to miss 2 games in 3 nights. He was probably violently ill for a few days.

      Can we let him get in NBA shape and over the flu before we throw dirt on him. His rebounding and assist numbers are outstanding and his ws/48 is .103 having not played in a year, missing camp and being ill. Give him a chance to round into NBA shape.

      He might still suck, but I would be shocked to see him play significantly better.

    25. d-mar

      Lee is not a substantial upgrade over Afflalo, at least not so far. He’s pretty similar as an offensive player and as hard as I squint my eyes I can’t see the supposed defensive impact that Lee brings to the table.

      Lee hasn’t been shooting great so far (TS%.513 vs. career .545) but I disagree about the defense. Not much to go by statistically, but I have flashbacks to last season and Afflalo constantly running past pump faking shooters. Lee at least gets up into his man, Afflalo was just invisible on D, you never, ever heard him singled out for a great defensive sequence.

      I’d rather have Lee than Afflalo any day of the week.

    26. latke

      The reason most teams that tank fail is because they aren’t bad intentionally. They are poorly run. Even with perennial high lotto picks, a badly run organization will fail. I think we can all agree that the hardest thing to do in the NBA and the most important thing as well is to get superstars. You can do everything in your power to increase your chances and still miss out. SO maybe the best question to ask is, “Why have some teams still disappointed even after finding a superstar?”

      The major recent examples of this are… Lebron in Cleveland, Garnett in Minnesota, Chris Paul in New Orleans, Anthony Davis in New Orleans (probably), McGrady in Orlando, Dwight in Orlando.

      * Immediately after drafting Davis, the Pelicans traded picks and spent wildly on free agents.
      * Paul and Lebron’s teams both won 35+ games in their rookies seasons thanks to competent play from mediocre veteran talent.
      * The Wolves started two 32 year olds in KG’s first season and were a 40 win team by his second year. Every player that played for Minny in that first Marbury/KG season was out of the league by the time KG was either out of the league or a deep bench player by the time KG was 24.
      *Before Dwight’s first season, the Magic traded McGrady for Francis and Mobley, both at the tail end of their primes.

      I don’t think tanking is the only answer. But I do think that investing in short term “solutions” and aging veterans is one of the few ways you can sabotage yourself when you are fortunate enough to find a generational talent.

      It’s simple: How will the Knicks improve next season? If the only answers are “They will sign Chris Paul” and “They will find that extra extra rare star who slips to the middle of the draft,” that’s a bad sign.

    27. djphan

      i think the future is ok… wily and koq help mitigate the sting of the noah contract.. it’s just our backcourt is not so great… i think teague might be a good sign and some more help in the draft and i think we could touch 50 wins next year…

    28. djphan

      lee i don’t think is much of a problem… much like everyone else he’s suffering from a cratering ftr rate but everything else is inline with what you’d expect…

    29. er

      Tnere was zero reason for Melo to take so many fall away J’s when it was obvious he had no lift (likely as a result of the B to B’s). That is an issue that must be addressed by the coach, Melo and management. We realize it is in star player’s DNA to shoot their way out of slumps, but sometimes you have to play within the team concept in order to win…. especially when you don’t have it that night.

      Yeah…its something that has to be addressed. Hopefully as we move forward instead of 25 fgas that game Melo has 15 fgas and a triple double.

    30. er

      I don’t think tanking is the only answer. But I do think that investing in short term “solutions” and aging veterans is one of the few ways you can sabotage yourself when you are fortunate enough to find a generational talent.

      This whole post was good. The difference is the Knicks have Melo who is better than any of those mediocre players on those teams. Rose is more comparable to those players. He most likely will be gone anyway and also having other young talent is another difference.

    31. bobneptune

      I had to laugh…. with the discussion of limiting minutes, as a 64 yr old, I looked up some of Wilt’s stats.

      He averaged 45.8 mpg for his entire career.

      He averaged 48.5 mpg in 61-62

      He played 43.2 mpg in his last year at 36

      His career WS/48 was .248

      His WS/48 in his last season at 36 was .247

      Pretty f#!*ing amazing…………

    32. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, people are expecting the Knicks to pull a Spurs and find good players in the draft… come on, there’s a reason that doesn’t happen.

      in the last freaking 30 years the Knicks have had ONE top 5 pick, and that was Porzingis, literally the only star the Knicks found in the draft since then… since Rod Strickland in 1988, only a single Knick draft pick has even been nominated to the all-star team, and that’s David Lee, not a superstar in any way shape or form… the Knicks have drafted 40 players in that time span, and has never found a Ginobili or Parker.

      the much more probable scenario is that this team wins 40 games, gets the 18th pick and drafts a decent role player, that’s pretty much it…

      Paul is not coming, it’s worthless speculation… why would he leave LA in the first place, and why to NYC of all places, where the president of basketball operations makes random unwarranted comments about his best friend’s “posse” to the media?

    33. d-mar

      Speaking of crazy stats, how about this one:

      KP is the only 21 year old in the history of the NBA to put up at least 20 points, 7 rebounds and 1 block while shooting 40% from 3 point range.

      He truly is the unicorn. And if we had gotten the 3rd pick and selected Okafor, and had to watch Zinger do this shit for another team, I might have to hang myself from the nearest basketball hoop.

    34. Ingmarrr

      Why do you guys think Rose is gone after this year? If he stays healthy I think he gets 4 years at 18 per. Veteran leadership, star power, familiarity with the triangle, breaks down the defense, blah blah blah.

    35. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      If Derrick Rose gets resigned phil will have squandered all the charity I reserve for him (not much, tbh)

      It would be disastrous

    36. reub

      Lee is a much better player than Afflalo.

      WillyBilly will be a force here for 10 or more years.

      We have just scratched the surface on Kuz, NDour, Baker and Plumlee and they will all be contributing going forward.

      Rose and Jennings have transformed our PG play.

      O’Quinn is now a rotation player. Holiday is a pro.

      KP is emerging and Melo is Melo.

      Draft picks going forward plus cap room.

      Plus Horny and Phil.

      The future is very bright.

    37. GoNyGoNyGo

      @40 –

      the much more probable scenario is that this team wins 40 games, gets the 18th pick and drafts a decent role player, that’s pretty much it…

      Bruno, that was an astute statement. I call it purgatory. But tanking isn’t the answer. IMO, the answer is two-fold. 1) Don’t trade your 1st round draft picks away. 2) Trade for TOP draft picks.

      This off-season the Knicks have their #1 pick which, as you said, is middle of the pack. The trick is to trade that pick and another asset for a better pick. As others have pointed out, there are a number of franchise type point guards in this draft. That’s a key need.

    38. swiftandabundant

      Again, we have no idea where the pick will fall OR what Phil Jackson plans to do with it.

      Say we get the 18th pick. We could package it with our 2 second rounders to move up 5 or 8 spots in the draft. Phil might use it on a Euro stash like he did with Willie H to get a player that would draft much higher the next year.

      And yeah, I guess its purgatory to have a first round pick, 2 second round picks and 20 million (or more) in cap space next summer? Seems a lot better than 3 years ago when we had no cap space, no draft picks and no KP to hang the future on.

    39. GoNyGoNyGo

      Purgatory means that there are no impact players left when we draft. Remember how we missed out on Steph Curry. And yes, I would rather be where we are now, with picks and cap space, than where we were a few years ago. That was Hell.

      BTW, that’s where the Nets are now.

    40. swiftandabundant

      Also, we should really wait and see how the season plays out before we complain about resigning rose, having bad draft picks, etc. I have a feeling if things don’t go well this year we’ll see a massive change in direction. I have nothing to base this on, just my hunch. But I feel like Phil put this team together to give Melo one more shot at competing with The Knicks. If it doesn’t work out (miss the playoffs or we lose in the first round), I think Melo waives the NTC (to a team of his choosing) and we get some players/picks back. Again, just my (positivity) hunch but I think it happens. At which point Rose isn’t resigned and we really rebuild around Zinger and Willie H. Will have to worry about Noah’s contract then but it’ll be ok. Phil got this. You all want either instant success or a 76ers style rebuild which doesn’t seem to really work from what I can tell.

    41. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      I don’t see how we get down to 5-7 with the limited assets we currently have. And we need to be in the 5-7 range for Monk or Fox or (if we’re very lucky) Lonzo Ball or a SF to develop after Melo retires (Taytum, Isaac)

      I could see us maybe trading up to 12ish and having a shot at Ntilikina, Bridges, or Harry Giles though. If we pick at 12 or later and Ntilikina is taken we’re basically SOL PG-wise and probably should just draft Ferguson or Kurucs at the 19/20 if we want to draft for need or Giles/Bridges at 14ish if we wanna swing for the fences

      All draft positions taken from DX, btw.

    42. thenoblefacehumper

      I don’t understand how having all of our picks reflects all that well on Phil. It’s not like he replenished any of the ones we lost, even though he arguably could have. He just didn’t trade any away. The vast majority of teams nowhere remotely close to contention don’t do that. If you want to put it forth as evidence of him being better than our past front offices that’s fine, but it says very little about his performance in a vacuum.

    43. GoNyGoNyGo

      I don’t understand how having all of our picks reflects all that well on Phil

      Not all posts are a referendum on Phil.

    44. JK47

      Say we get the 18th pick. We could package it with our 2 second rounders to move up 5 or 8 spots in the draft.

      This is flat-out wrong, because it WAY overvalues those second round picks. Second round picks are essentially a fungible commodity. The Knicks own the second rounders of the Rockets and Bulls. Right now that comes out to the #48 and the #50 pick. If you’re a team that is in the lottery, you just DO NOT trade down “5 or 8 spots” so you can get those essentially valueless second round picks. If you REALLY gotta have a player who is still available in the second half of the second round, it’s not very hard to find someone to sell a pick in that range to you.

    45. Bruno Almeida

      @45

      I agree that a trade might be the best option, but that’s when the Knicks will need patience… patience that hasn’t exactly been a virtue of this franchise since well, ever.

      Realistically which trade assets the Knicks have now? the 1st pick, Courtney Lee is a useful SG that should have some trade value, and that’s pretty much it… Rose is untradeable for anything decent, since no relevant team has 22 million worth of contracts devoted to useful players the Knicks would want in retur; Noah is also untradeable as a piece of a trade up in the draft if he keeps playing terribly; Melo won’t waive his NTC anyway and the young players in the bench are hardly proven enough to tip the scales in our favor.

      I think the best move for the Knicks is to bank on the desperation of some teams… I can see a team like Detroit, Washington or Phoenix trading away assets once it’s settled that they have no chance at the playoffs, and players like Tobias Harris, Bradley Beal or Brandon Knight might be available, and I would rather have one of these guys than the 18th overall in this draft.

      the teams that are going to have the top 10 picks are very unlikely to want either Lee, Noah or any of the younger guys in our roster plus the 18th overall, unless Phil pulls some magic or includes a future 1st rounder, which might not be the best option…

      that’s why I’m so pessimistic regarding the Knicks’ future, because this team is stuck between two timelines that can’t work together, unless some massive improbability happens (Willy / Kuz turns into a star very quickly, Melo turns into a much more efficient scorer and better defender, Rose turns into Westbrook, Noah becomes 2011 Noah, etc).

      I understand that a lot of people would be fine with a low seed and a decent playoff showing, but I am not, and I think it’s a gigantic missed opportunity to waste the first rounder in this draft.

    46. thenoblefacehumper

      Say we get the 18th pick. We could package it with our 2 second rounders to move up 5 or 8 spots in the draft.

      Are we throwing in Porzingis too?

    47. swiftandabundant

      @ 54 – I said we have the 18th and move up 5 to 8 spots. That means we move up to the 13th or 10th spot (13th is more realistic). Why would that require KP (non snarky answer preferred). We’re giving them 2 second round picks to move up 5 to 8 spots. That seems reasonable.

      Or maybe we give them KQ and a second round pick. I’m just saying we can improve our draft pick if Phil wants to or not. Jesus, the snark/pessimism on this board is unbelievable sometimes.

    48. thenoblefacehumper

      I said we have the 18th and move up 5 to 8 spots. That means we move up to the 13th or 10th spot (13th is more realistic). Why would that require KP (non snarky answer preferred). We’re giving them 2 second round picks to move up 5 to 8 spots. That seems reasonable.

      Or maybe we give them KQ and a second round pick. I’m just saying we can improve our draft pick if Phil wants to or not. Jesus, the snark/pessimism on this board is unbelievable sometimes.

      Because in what world are two picks in the buyable range worth drastically worsening your draft position? Have two second round picks, disregarding how low ours project to be, EVER been sufficient to move up even, like, 3 spots?

    49. SJK

      Well we did parlay THJ into the 19th pick, so it’s possible we could move one of our bench guys + our pick to move up, if unlikely.

      The thing is, we are 16 games into the season so it’s still WAY too early to call anything draft related. And if we are good enough for a late teens pick without improved play from Rose I think that’s a good sign–means we can replace him and get better.

    50. latke

      There are three players with any real trade value on the Knicks: Melo, KP, Hernangomez. Everyone else is either “Here’s the #28 pick or here’s a second rounder” level trade value or “you better give me something I want or take this crap I don’t want if you want me to take him” level.

      If you want to move up more than maybe 1-2 spots, you have to include one of the above three players or offer a future 1st of some kind.

    51. thenoblefacehumper

      The thing is, we are 16 games into the season so it’s still WAY too early to call anything draft related. And if we are good enough for a late teens pick without improved play from Rose I think that’s a good sign–means we can replace him and get better.

      This is all true. Chris Paul isn’t coming but Holiday, Hill, Mills, Collison, etc. would all make the team better assuming they replace Rose. The problem is we’d almost definitely be capped out for a while and still wouldn’t project to be a serious threat (everyone would be a year older). I think Jackson put this team together assuming the final product would be 1-2 year window as a 50+ win team with Paul or Westbrook.

    52. latke

      Yeah, the way Phil has built this team is sorta similar to how some startup might spend all their money and time worrying about how to lure investors and none of it actually putting together an enticing product. We bring in all these old players to try to prop up the record in the short term, hoping FAs won’t look past the win total and see that many key pieces would have to be let go of to sign those FAs and many others are likely to get dramatically worse in the coming couple seasons.

    53. DRed

      Jennings is cheap and pretty good. Lots of teams could use a better backup, and an injury or two could leave contenders with a need for a competent pg. Problem is I’m not sure Phil would deal him as long as we’re in contention, even if it would obviously be better for the long term future of the club

    54. thenoblefacehumper

      Signing Jennings to a one year deal and then dealing him would be one of the most shrewd moves Phil has made. I wonder where we’d have to be for him to consider trading guys. This is the problem with this fucking season–in my heart of hearts I know losing games is objectively better for the team. Makes for very conflicting emotions about wins.

    55. Knew Your Nicks

      The truth is that if you want to be an NBA contender you need great management, tons of luck, but above all basketball knowledge.

      There’s NO EASY WAY to get a chip in this league and all the suggestions about tanking, trading and picking players sound as guessing the lotto numbers.

      Do you want to win ?
      You need the bball knowledge to pick the right ones and make them excell together.
      OKC did it [but then screw it] GSW did it, LAC are trying to do it, SA is doin’it for decades…

      Call me a dreamer but i STILL trust Phil’s bball knowledge to build a contender.

    56. latke

      @dred, I agree that Jennings has some value, but if we’re talking about moving up in the draft, Jennings will no longer be under contract at that point.

      I’m curious as well just what it would take for the Knicks to part the team out again… Be pretty extreme to have done that twice in three seasons. My guess is we’d have to be something like 15-26 or so by the midpoint for Phil to swallow his pride and go that direction. Hell, the subplot to this season that I’m amazed doesn’t get more attention is Jackson’s future with the Knicks. Isn’t his head the next one on the chopping block, especially with the Knicks having an option this summer?

    57. reub

      I hope that Phil will use the 2nd round picks next year to draft and stash the next two Willys. I am certain that he will.

    58. JK47

      There’s NO EASY WAY to get a chip in this league and all the suggestions about tanking, trading and picking players sound as guessing the lotto numbers.

      There might be no easy way to get a chip, but there are lots of easy ways to make sure you DON’T get a chip. Building your team around three or four high-paid veterans who are not likely to outperform their contracts is a surefire way to make sure you don’t win one.

      You need to have several guys who are outperforming their contracts. You can do that in three ways:
      1. Get great players on rookie contracts
      2. Get players who are so good they provide surplus value even on max contracts
      3. Find scrap heap guys who are undervalued

      Phil is spending $25M on Melo, $21M on Rose, $17M on Noah and $11M on Lee. Are they getting surplus value out of any of those guys? No. At best they’ll get break-even value from that group, and considering that Rose and Lee are both rocking a sub-.040 WS48 right now, and that Noah is only on the floor 22 minutes per game, it’s a pretty good bet they’ll be actually getting negative value from that group of four contracts. With an approach like that, “slightly better than mediocre” is the ceiling.

    59. Knew Your Nicks

      At least we’re one of the most improved teams so far and that’s a good way to attract good players in the future.
      Also there are many ways to improve our contending chances through drafts and trades.
      Our cap is clean, our draft picks are here, our coach is cool and future looks bright.

      Ofcourse if someone’s a pesimist he will always find stuff to whine about but that’s not Phil’s fault…

    60. djphan

      if we blow our load in next year’s FA… then we will be capped out until 2020 when the LT/Noah/Lee contracts are off the books…

    61. GoNyGoNyGo

      @53 – You make strong arguments but the Knicks do have assets and don’t need to make a move now. First, I think that the Knicks will end up drafting in the 8-16 range. Most pundits do too. I sampled some of the mock drafts:

      nbadraft.net has us picking 8th and taking Frank Ntilikina
      nbadraftroom.com has us picking 8th and taking De’Aaron Fox
      Chad ford of ESPN has us picking 14th and taking Malik Monk
      Hoopshype.com has us picking 7th and taking Johathan Isaac

      The only point is that the draft pick alone is a good one. Guys like Kyle O’Quinn, Lance Thomas and Mindaskus Kuzminskis are assets for a draft day trade. I doubt we can trade our 2’s to move up. And the real key is that there are 5 or so really good point guards in the draft.

    62. Bruno Almeida

      @71
      I do hope you, and the websites, are right… I’d be very happy with Ntilikina, Monk or even Fox, if we can trade our pick + 2 of those guys for one of this 3, that would honestly be amazing.

      I still think it’s not very probable, unfortunately.

    63. reub

      A very nice start. Noah playing better so far. Rose penetrating well. KP and Melo both looking like they want this one.

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