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Wednesday, May 22, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2016.06.26)

  • [New York Post] 25 reasons summer sports in New York City will be awesome (Sun, 26 Jun 2016 02:37:04 -0400)
    Summer in the city. The City That Never Sleeps. Where, not to worry, there is no calm around here after the LeBron-versus-Warriors storm. New York sports fans can bemoan the paucity of championships, but their insatiable appetite always remains whetted by the smorgasbord of stars and events that come their way. In chronological order: 1….

  • [New York Post] Knicks’ recent point guard history is not very inspiring (Sun, 26 Jun 2016 02:18:37 -0400)
    The position of point guard for the New York Knicks ought to carry the same weight, the same gravitas, and the same roster of excellence that center field for the Yankees always has. New York, after all, long fancied itself as the cradle of point guards, and even if there are plenty who will line…

  • [New York Post] Carmelo and Kevin Durant were at a dinner together: report (Sun, 26 Jun 2016 00:09:14 -0400)
    Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony will be together Monday for a press conference in Manhattan to announce the U.S. Olympic team that will be competing in Rio in August. Former Post basketball writer Peter Vecsey, on WFAN, said Anthony and Durant were at a dinner together Friday. The two, having grown up in the Baltimore/Washington…

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    129 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2016.06.26)

    1. massive

      If the Knicks really do sign Jamal Crawford and we end up giving him and Rose 4,000 minutes we will be drafting Harry Giles.

    2. danvt

      Oy. I love the epic, early summer threads around here. When the K’s actually play basketball and all the machinations are exposed I tend to fade out. Right now hope springs eternal. Having said that these threads have been tedious and I was not able to get through all of yesterday’s. Usually I do before I weigh in.
      I teach band and the supplier I use for instruments has a term called “ISO’s”, which means “instrument shaped objects”. A clarinet from a thrift shop without good pads, for example, might cost more to fix than a new one would cost to buy. So, whatever bargain you got is money you’ve lost and you still need an instrument. DRose is a “BPSO”, a “basketball player shaped object”. We still need a point guard. We also lost three assets who will surely make us feel very bad as they do their thing for years in this league for better coaches and in better situations.
      I’m one of the people on this blog who tries to put a positive spin on what the team does, normally. I just think it’s easy to surmise better moves from outside the war room. Like, for example, if there was a first round pick for Rolo I’m sure we would have done it. I assume that given their constraints NYK GM’s are making the best moves they can. But I’ve been burned too many times. I’ve come to the conclusion that this move JUST SUCKS.
      Yes, I’ll be happy with cap room and picks IN A YEAR, but in what world of torture do I live that I’m basically writing off a basketball season in June, three days after the draft. Yes, Drose COULD surprise. You certainly need luck to gat a contender. SAS slips to #4 in 1997 and gets Antonio Daniels, they don’t pick Manu, they don’t pick Parker. The Stat’s crowd often assumes that past performance makes for a forgone conclusion. Draymond Green went #35. Did anyone think he could be a DPOY? A team needs statistical ANOMALIES to succeed. Still, there are bad bets and NYK just made one.
      Remember Jim Carey in “Dumb and Dumber”? “So,…

    3. Z-man

      yes, there’s a chance.

      Here’s my prediction for a resurgent Rose:
      Games played: 65
      TS% .510
      Points/36: 16
      Assts/36: 7
      Asst%: 35
      Usg%: 28
      Reb/36: 3.5
      FTr: .250
      3Pt%: .310
      WS48: 120

    4. Z-man

      C’s I’d like to sign:
      Whiteside
      Biyombo
      Mahimni
      Horford
      Aldrich
      Mozgov
      Noah
      Gasol
      Plumlee
      Zeller

      I’d also like to get David Lee on the roster, for old time’s sake.

    5. danvt

      I’d love to be wrong Z-Man and I usually am. So, maybe by that principle we’ll win this one. If he meets those projections, what’s the effect on the team? I’d be overjoyed with 41-41.

      Who do you see us getting now (edited to say you already put up C’s, grazi)? Is Rose gonna be a drag on our FA recruiting? I like the idea that this is red meat for Dolan and now we can go for under the radar/ high value signings.

      Thanks for the entertaining, well researched posts.

    6. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      Imagine if we brought Cole Aldrich back for quadruple the price we could’ve paid him over the course of a 3 year contract?

    7. Silky Johnson, Phil Jackson Hater of the Year

      Well apparently the Knicks are probably slated to get a meeting with KD, which currently the Lakers and Wizards aren’t. These articles I’ve been reading are essentially conjured rumors, so I don’t take them too seriously, but they all said that while the Knicks are a long shot KD is more interested in them post Rose trade. Take that for what you will. That’s about all I can say wrt the advantages of Derrick Rose’s FA appeal. Maybe Whiteside is dumb enough to think that Rose is still great and gets suckered into coming here. Who knows.

      If we signed Solomon Hill, Biyombo/Cole/Mahinmi, and, like, Alessandro Gentile/Troy Daniels I’d be happy enough.

      If we signed a 1+1 team option deal for Noah or Pau I wouldn’t like it but I wouldn’t hate it either.

      If we sign a long-term deal that isn’t for a good young player then Phil doesn’t understand this team’s timeline and doesn’t understand how to build a healthy, sustainable team.

      If we sign Jamal Crawford I’m burning down MSG.

    8. Z-man

      @5 I was trying to think of a reasonable mean, balancing poor recent production with continuing progress from injury and better situation. Those stats would have put him roughly in the 2015-16 group with Wall (WS48=.098), Rubio (WS48=.119), and Teague (WS48=.125). I think it’s an optimistic but not unrealistic outlook. More than anything, it goes to show how in a supposedly PG-dominant league, there are very few PGS that are actually good! I mean, Conley will get long-term max money coming off a WS48 of .144 and a season that ended in a leg injury???

    9. Z-man

      @8 looking at it another way, imagine if we signed Cole for way less money than RoLo and got way more production?

    10. massive

      Derrick Rose’s problem is in shot selection. He simply doesn’t shoot enough 3s or free throws in games where his TS% is abysmal. He’ll shoot 5 for 14 from the field with no threes or FTA. It’s imperative he attempts 4 3s and 6 FTA per 36 if he wants to be an average offensive player.

      You watch this guy play and it blows your mind with how bad he can be. Three knee surgeries in and there is still nobody who can stay in front of him. He can make passes on a dime, get into the teeth of the defense, hit the open three, push it ahead in transition, and basically anything you want your point guard to do offensively. He can do it all. His problem is that he goes left and right in the paint when he should be going north. That’s how you generate FTA. And one trip to the line erases what would have been a miss without a foul called. It also negatively affects the defender as he picks up a foul.

      I don’t think he will stop going left and right though. I don’t think he’ll start passing more often when he breaks down a defense. That’s where he struggles. He does not struggle athletically. It’s in the decision making and you can blame the knees for that. He doesn’t want to get hurt and it hurts his efficiency. If he’s ready to run through people this year, then we’ll have a good player. If he isn’t, then we’ll draft high.

    11. massive

      The Knicks should definitely sign Cole to a multi year deal. If his stamina is good enough to play 2,000 minutes then he’ll win MOP.

    12. Z-man

      massive, if he’s gonna shoot 29-32% from 3, I don’t think he should shoot more of them. However, he does need to get to the FT line more, where he’s 81% for his career. Last year, his FTr dropped to a career low, and my guess is that he was afraid of getting hurt again like he did the year before. Between Hornacek’s coaching and it being a contract year, his FTr will go up. The question for me is, will he blow out his knee again in the process?

    13. DRed

      The other interesting thing about Rose is that he doesn’t get assists like he did when he was young. 8 per 36 isn’t great, but it’s a lot better than 5.3. Anyone have an explanation for that?

    14. stratomatic

      As it stands right now, the Knicks are one of the weaker lottery teams. That includes a forecast of Rose playing 60-70 games and being a little better than last year. If he breaks down, they could literally be the worst team in the east. Even the Nets and 76ers could leapfrog them. (well maybe not the Nets).

      If the Knicks add Noah and he gets back to his most productive years, then they will probably be better than last year, but still not necessarily a playoff team. The things is, if you add Noah (who will probably be a lot more expensive than Lopez for those extra few wins), you have almost no room to add a decent quality SG. If by some magic we manage to add Noah and a decent SG, we are going to have the worst bench in the NBA and 2 starters that are likely to break down at any point in front of it.

      The only wildcard in that forecast is KP’s upside. If he explodes forward that would obviously bring about a different result. But honestly, I think this Rose trade more or less undid most of the progress Jackson made after blowing up the team and starting from scratch. We gave away 2 good value contracts on younger healthier improving players for a flyer with with a team that has no shot at contending. It’s business as usual in NY.

    15. thenoblefacehumper

      News flash. We weren’t wining a championship regardless of whether we made that trade or not.

      Again – to be 100% clear — I don’t really like this trade, and I’ve stood by that since the start. I wouldn’t have done it and I think we probably should have gotten more (or given less).

      That said – I’d like noblefacehumper, THCJ, JK47 etc. to present a plan by which we WERE going to win a championship in the next 2-3 years (or at least be in serious contention) pre-trade.

      I am well aware we weren’t going to win a championship anytime soon regardless of the trade. That makes trading two long term assets for a one year rental (who is terrible, but we can pretend he isn’t for the sake of argument) worse, not better.

      As for my plan, well, the reality is most realistic paths to contention went out the window when we signed Melo to a five year mega max with a no trade clause. That would’ve been the perfect time to start a full rebuild and Phil Jackson unequivocally blew it. The best thing we can hope for with Melo still on the books is probably a good team that isn’t really a contender but is nonetheless fun too root for/watch. To try and get there, I’d target multiple young undervalued players in free agency, a la the Blazers last offseason, to try and recoup some of the value lost in Melo’s deal. Solomon Hill, Dewayne Dedmon, and James Ennis are some examples but there were a lot more of these kinds of guys last offseason (in this thread I advocated for Davis, Aminu, Biyombo, etc http://knickerblogger.net/espn-reports-knicks-sign-afflalo/).

      I’d only offer a max to Durant, Whiteside, and Batum. When they don’t bite, I would NOT just spend the rest of the cap space for the sake of doing so.

      But honestly, it feels ridiculous even trying to come up with a plan to salvage the team at this point. We have a GM who thinks Derrick fucking Rose was worth trading two assets for (and again, I think people will be nostalgic for Calderon…

    16. massive

      Usually it just looks like typical “I’m Derrick Rose and I gotta get my rhythm back” hijacking of an offense. It’s not like guys are less open when he drives to the rim because he routinely drags at least a second defender with him when he’s attacking. It could also be that Derrick Rose did not trust the guys on the Bulls to make open jumpers. On multiple occasions, Rose’s camp has spoken up about the lack of offensive weapons the Bulls gave him. I guess they didn’t think highly of Deng, Bogans, Korver, Brewer, Noah, or Boozer on that end of the floor. Will he pass the ball more often now that at least KP and Melo are seen as good to great offensive players? Maybe. His assist rate dropped and he was playing with guys two offensive All Stars Gasol and Butler.

      Z-man, I agree and disagree. My point is that when a guard goes a game where you don’t shoot free throws or 3 pointers, you’re not giving yourself a good shot at playing an efficient game. If you go 5 for 14 with no FTA or 3s, you’ve scored 10 points on 14 shots which is terrible. Now if you’re 5-14 and 5-6 from the stripe and 1 for 3 from deep, you’ve scored 16 points on 14 shots. That’s the difference between a sub .400 TS% and one above .500 (I think; I didn’t actually do the math so I could be wrong). That’s why I say he should shoot more 3s. Even if he’s converting at 32%, it’s worth more than a 2.

    17. thenoblefacehumper

      Thad Young is also a pretty solid and versatile defender, and can guard 2-4 in a pinch if on a switch. He’s actually capable of defending more than 10 feet from the basket. He plays really well off the ball. Zach Lowe, fivethirtyeight, and others who actually do more than look at someone’ s line at B-R all love Thaddeus Young.

      I’m willing to bet I watched more Nets games than you last season. There’s nothing about watching him that should make one evaluate him independently of his numbers, which are worse than Lopez’ across the board (Lopez has him beat in WP, WS, and PER–first two by significant margins). He’s by no means as bad as, say, Derrick Rose, but he is nothing special and easily worse than Lopez.

    18. thenoblefacehumper

      http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-does-derrick-rose-fit-in-with-the-knicks-1466729766

      Some great stuff in Herring’s recent piece on the trade:

      Aside from the outstanding box-out work Lopez does in the trenches, he was the best screener the Knicks had last season. New York shot a blistering 54.5%—up from the team’s average of 45.1%—off Lopez’s screens, according to SportVU.

      Defensively, his impact was equally huge. With Lopez and Porzingis on the court together, the Knicks were essentially a top-10 defense. They ranked second in the NBA in rim protection and allowing 102.5 points per 100 plays—comparable to the Cleveland Cavaliers, who ranked 10th on defense, limiting foes to 102.3 points allowed per 100 possessions.

      But when Lopez went to the bench and Porzingis stayed on the floor (sometimes as the center, other times as a power forward while playing next to a backup center), the defense slipped significantly, surrendering 107 points per 100 plays, on par with the Phoenix Suns, who finished 23-59 and posted the fifth-worst defense in the NBA.

      Anyone who thinks we’re getting a center like Lopez for $13m AAV in this market simply doesn’t understand the NBA economy right now.

    19. massive

      If Joakim Noah is demanding anything more than $15M AAV then he’s crazy and we need to move on. That’s money that a guy like Biyombo would take and he’s a whole 7 years younger and much healthier. I think we’re going to be bare minimum 10 wins better this season. I’m certain whoever we add at center will be more productive than RoLo as long as they can stay healthy. Anyone of Howard, Horford, Noah, Biyombo, Mahinmi, and even Cole Aldrich would produce more wins than RoLo in the same amount of minutes. The hard part is finding a shooting guard to fit. Holiday was good for Chicago in limited minutes and if given minutes he could be better than what Afflalo gave us on both ends. If we can get our center for $15M AAV, and I think that’s possible, then we can pursue Bazemore (who could be leaving when you see how Atlanta drafted). I’d like to try D Will at the 2, but he probably hates New York and will never play for either team again. I’m confident we’ll be better. Just don’t sign Jamal Crawford. Crawford makes us a 27 win team.

    20. massive

      I’m willing to bet one of Biyombo and Noah sign for anything around $13-16M AAV this summer and both guys are better than Lopez. Mahinmi is likely to sign for less and he’s better than Lopez. Aldrich? Better than Lopez and will at most see half of what he got.

      Robin Lopez is not on a bargain contract. He is paid a fair wage for what he does on both ends of the floor. Also, that Herring article is great. I read it, and I also said to myself when I saw those numbers “yeah well it’s easy to look great when Seraphin and Derrick Williams were our reserves in the front court last season.”

    21. yellowboy90

      Off topic:

      What is Noel’s value? It seems teams turned Philly down. I know NY doesn’t have the PG they are looking for but who does? The only other PG I can think of is Rubio but that’s just bringing in another non-shooter.

      So, will the Sixers just hold on to him or trade him for 1st rd pick?

    22. lavor postell

      Anyone who thinks we’re getting a center like Lopez for $13m AAV in this market simply doesn’t understand the NBA economy right now.

      I’d bet money you can get Mahinmi for that type of money. He’s more mobile defensively, probably better in terms of rim protection, not as good of a team rebounder and a more limited offensive player, but I think he’d have a similar level of impact as Lopez for right around the same money.

    23. Frank

      But honestly, it feels ridiculous even trying to come up with a plan to salvage the team at this point. We have a GM who thinks Derrick fucking Rose was worth trading two assets for (and again, I think people will be nostalgic for Calderon…

      So what you’re saying is you don’t have a plan. You just like to criticize the current one. Which is fine, (again, I didn’t like the Rose/Lopez trade!) but just like the Republicans and Obamacare, dissent is much more powerful if you can present a viable alternative, rather than talking about Melo 3 years ago and Ed Davis last year.

      I’m willing to bet I watched more Nets games than you last season. There’s nothing about watching him that should make one evaluate him independently of his numbers, which are worse than Lopez’ across the board (Lopez has him beat in WP, WS, and PER–first two by significant margins). He’s by no means as bad as, say, Derrick Rose, but he is nothing special and easily worse than Lopez.

      Thank you for your reasoned and in-depth analysis of you watching more Nets games and thinking he sucks.

      You’re right, I watched maybe 1 Nets game last year. I also never played high-level basketball, so I don’t really fully understand what i’m watching even when I do watch games. I would imagine you are in that category too. That’s why I rely on the analysis of people who watched film, did more in-depth analysis, etc.

    24. Zanzibar

      Robin Lopez is the Rodney Dangerfield of centers. Some “expert” called him “serviceable” on a podcast. Dude’s put up WS/48 > .150 the past 3 seasons and he’s played almost every game in that period. He’s the Paul Millsap of centers. For reliable .150+ WS/48 at 13m on a 108m cap, you take that and thank your lucky stars. Maybe if he soared and dunked like Chandler or swooped and swatted like Whiteside people would appreciate him more. It’s just an aesthetics thing – even his 55% hook isn’t pretty. Now he’s being compared to that soon-to-be 30yo malingerer Mahinmi who’s been below average 2 of the last 4 seasons. Why Mahinmi’s not fit to carry RLo’s comic book collection. Fans are gaga over a brooding, self-centered Rose and acting like Lopez’s salary dump was akin to throwing out the trash. No respect. SMH

    25. Frank

      Anyone who thinks we’re getting a center like Lopez for $13m AAV in this market simply doesn’t understand the NBA economy right now.

      You’re definitely right. But AAV is not the only way to measure the value of a contract. It’d be entirely reasonable to think that someone like Noah (yes I know his stats from the last year+) might be of equal value on an AAV of 15-16MM but for 1 or even 2 years.

      Especially if you’re planning to play a style that Lopez is not suited for.

      Anyway, here I am again seeming to be on the Lopez-bashing side. I’m not. I really like Robin Lopez – one of my favorite Knicks of the last decade. I just don’t think this Rose trade is such a disaster.

    26. reub

      Noah will be perfect when Phil signs him for $11M. He’ll sign for less to play for a championship team managed by Phil and with former MVP D Rose. How much would be left? $20M? 25M? Sign Batum? Parsons? Bazemore? Crabbe? Lee? Turner? Hill? Boban? Stephenson? Bennett? Wroten?

    27. Frank

      The hard part is finding a shooting guard to fit. Holiday was good for Chicago in limited minutes and if given minutes he could be better than what Afflalo gave us on both ends. If we can get our center for $15M AAV, and I think that’s possible, then we can pursue Bazemore (who could be leaving when you see how Atlanta drafted).

      Bazemore would be great – and seems like ATL is moving since they drafted like 5 SG types.

      Or maybe even better, if only because he has more of a proven track record — Courtney Lee. Much better shooter, really good defender, good locker room guy. Not too many miles even if he’s 30. 2 years/30MM?

    28. massive

      I don’t think anybody is bashing/attacking RoLo. I just think that there will be guys who make comparable money that are better than him and that losing him isn’t the end of the world.

      How we lost him was stupid. Very very stupid, and that’s even if Justin Holiday turns into Kent Bazemore and the 2nd round pick turns into Nikola Jokic or Draymond Green; you don’t horrendously undersell on a guy who at worst was worth a late first round pick. If there wasn’t a market for Lopez, then you keep him because he’s good and on a fair contract. We undersold on our best assets, but we did not punt the season either.

    29. massive

      Courtney Lee would be good, but for the same money I’ll take Kent Bazemore. Baze is younger, more athletic, and has the ability to create his own offense in a pinch. I’d be happy with either guy.

    30. ptmilo

      The other interesting thing about Rose is that he doesn’t get assists like he did when he was young. 8 per 36 isn’t great, but it’s a lot better than 5.3. Anyone have an explanation for that?

      My take is that Rose didn’t play like a true point guard this year. He played about 70% like a score-first guard with the ball in his hands and some innate passing ability (think poor man’s late-game-Harden style) and 30% of the time he faded into the background off the ball as opposed to consistently running the offense. On defense, though, he was 100% Harden.

    31. Frank

      Derrick Rose is young.

      This is true.

      Everyone wants to make it like he’s the next McGrady or Anfernee Hardaway or Brandon Roy, but he’s a lot younger than those guys were when they had their terrible injuries. In addition, he had a bad ACL tear but his last 2 injuries were meniscus injuries. The first surgery took him out for the year because it was a repair, not a removal. The second surgery the following year was a partial removal which has earlier recovery but possibly worse long term outcomes – and sure enough, he came back for the playoffs. ACLs and meniscus injuries have good long-term outcomes for the most part. Surgery is better than it used to be, rehab is better, etc.

      In contrast, McGrady and Hardaway (and Amare and Greg Oden) had microfracture surgeries which are basically the kiss of death since the need for it implies much worse cartilage damage. Honestly it’s amazing that Amare actually came back even as well as he did. Brandon Roy had minor surgeries but had zero cartilage which probably was a congenital issue. And McDyess had a patella tendon rupture (twice!), which is a much worse injury than an ACL (think Victor Cruz, who basically missed 2 seasons with his patellar injury).

    32. ptmilo

      Derrick Rose is young.

      Orange ball bounces askew
      Time is relative

      We don’t do enough group haikus anymore.

    33. Zanzibar

      Now he has no choice but to risk injury and go balls out, since he will not get a max deal with mediocre play. The combination of the contract year, improving health and a better situation are all in the Knicks’ favor for this year.

      Maybe but perhaps not so clear cut. If he plays all out at an all-star or very high level, some team gives him a max or near max. If he plays all out but suffers another knee injury, he’s probably a vet min to mle player. If he ratchets up a bit to where he’s an average or above average player reducing risk of injury, some team probably gives him 15-20m/year. What’s his best strategy?

      Just to show I’m able to be balanced about the Rose trade, here’s the best case scenario:
      > Sign Whiteside who then continues to play at >.200 WS/48
      > KP makes a Pau jump to >.175 WS/48
      > Melo posts a WS/48 of .140
      > Rose plays at All Star or very high level
      > Lance is 3&D SG and shoots 40% from 3
      > Gallo/Willy/KOQ are decent off the bench
      > We still have 10m? of cap to add another player if we go over cap to sign Gallo and Lance

      Is that team not a legit contender?

    34. reub

      Do you think Phil might bring over big man Ioannis Bourousis from Europe? Supposedly the best player overseas and the Spurs tried but couldn’t sign him last year. I read that he wants to play in the NBA. He shoots threes too! Is he the real reason Phil traded Lopez?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2jR0WXLA48

    35. d-mar

      The wise old koi fish
      Deep in the shade dappled pond
      Do not feed the troll

      That’s some heavy shit, man.

    36. Z

      So what you’re saying is you don’t have a plan. You just like to criticize the current one.

      I don’t think any fan here can paint a path to a championship that is acceptable to you, especially with all the parameters you put on it. Obviously, it takes a lot of luck (and/or providence) to get as good as the Warriors, Thunder, Spurs, and Cavs.

      But what people who post here can do is lay down a basic doctrine for team building in NY, which is what a lot of the better posters on this site have consistently done over the past eight or nine years. That’s really all a front office does too.

      For me, I’d say that the “strategy” should have been to do a proper re-build. In this current cycle, the time to have done that was beginning at the trade deadline of 2014. Jackson had autonomy and the writing was on the wall with the roster (as many posters here were able to see). Trade the vets for picks and let it bleed for a few years. I know there is no guarantee that NY would be championship bound from that, but I think we’d be in better shape now if we had done that at any point during the past ten years.

      There are two paths in front of the Knicks every year: a proper re-build with a 5 year plan, or try to mold what you have into something better. The latter is what the team does every year, even though they have stayed consistently terrible, while other teams have managed to go from bad to good, some several times over.

      And this could go on for decades. No joke. It already has.

    37. reub

      If we play KP at center more often then maybe Chandler Parsons should be our guy. I know that he’s had injuries but his numbers jump off the table, at least offensively. He shot 41% from three and 54% from 2 last year and is a terrific distributor too. He might come at a discount because of his past health issues. A big if I know. We supposedly have a meeting scheduled with him. He’ll probably sign for around $17M I would guess and we could do a 1+1 to keep our cap space for next season. We’d still have $14M left for a guard like Courtney Lee and a defensive type big man.

      KP
      Melo
      Parsons
      Lee
      Rose

    38. Z

      No GM in the Dolan Era has adopted a true rebuilding plan, even though it was the basis of all of the good teams in the league’s rise to elitism.

      The Layden Doctrine: Utilize the competitive advantage of Dolan’s liberal fiscal constraints to bring in new players. (This did little more than turn short contracts into longer, more expensive contracts).

      The Isiah Doctrine: Double down on the Layden plan by turning long, expensive contracts into the long and expensive contracts of famous people.

      The Walsh Doctrine: undo the damage of the Layden/Isiah spending spree while at the same time putting as competitive a team as possible on the court.

      The Grunwald/Mills Doctrine: do whatever Dolan tells you to do or get reassigned.

      The Jackson Doctrine: Instill a system of basketball and change the culture.

      Jackson’s seems lofty but achievable, but he’s already on the way toward abandoning the system, and the Rose trade isn’t exactly one consistent with his “culture change”. Basically, he is falling back into the vicious cycle of Dolan GMs past, trying to sell a non-rebuild rebuild to Knick fans, while really just buying famous players several years past their primes.

      So, basically what I’m saying here is: DRed for GM 2016

    39. DRed

      The problem with Jackson’s install a system shit is that he starts with an entirely new team every fucking year. Last year we had a new center, a new PF and a new SG. This year we’ll have a new C, and new PG, (maybe) a new SG

    40. Frank

      I don’t think any fan here can paint a path to a championship that is acceptable to you, especially with all the parameters you put on it.

      I don’t think the parameters were that restrictive. It’s basically – come up with something realistic rather than just constantly complaining about what’s being done. It’s realistic to try to come up with a plan that includes Melo, because he already has the NTC. It’s a done deal. It’s realistic to ask that this plan comes without fantasy free agents signing onto a tanking team. It’s realistic – IMHO – to think that whatever contender you build should be able to play in the “new” NBA in which centers are going to be asked to switch onto smalls and guard the perimeter on switches and PNRs.

      It’s ok to say that Lopez will be a 25 min/game guy but that we need Kristaps to turn into our (defensive) version of Ibaka/Durant/Lebron/Draymond. Just give a plan. I might actually agree! I just don’t see a clear or plausible path myself. Which is why I have a hard time saying that Phil is definitely wrong in this path.

      There are two paths in front of the Knicks every year: a proper re-build with a 5 year plan, or try to mold what you have into something better. The latter is what the team does every year, even though they have stayed consistently terrible, while other teams have managed to go from bad to good, some several times over.

      I am in the camp that proper development of players like KP requires veteran leadership. If you look at the Spurs – they’ve been great forever because they’ve surrounded their young stars with existing good veterans. Duncan had Robinson. Parker had Duncan and Ginobili. Kawhi was babied along by all 3 of those.

      Look what happens to Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, etc. when they play on a team that has no direction? They don’t learn to do the little things you need to do to win. So I’m fine with the “molding what we have” strategy.

    41. reub

      DRed you should apply for the Knicks job and show them your qualifications. I’m sure they’ll be happy to replace Phil with you. Who wouldn’t?

    42. Frank

      The problem with Jackson’s install a system shit is that he starts with an entirely new team every fucking year.

      Agree 1000%.
      He definitely has a problem with having a plan and sticking to it.

    43. Kevin Udwary

      Y’all are gonna be in for a rude awakening this summer if you think Noah is going to settle for $15mil on a short term contract. There has never been anywhere close to this much cap space available for the whole league. Anyone who has a chance to be a good player will get PAID. I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Noah get at least 3 years $60mil. We made a move that created even more holes on an already mediocre team in the most competitive free agency summer ever. And next summer isn’t going to be much better.

    44. lavor postell

      Agree 1000%.
      He definitely has a problem with having a plan and sticking to it.

      I think he’s shaping the roster according to what the new coach wants right now. Wouldn’t keeping all the pieces the same be more along the lines of what we’ve done before where we just changed coaches and didn’t do much in terms of changing personnel or getting the type of players the coach wanted.

    45. sugarslim5

      No GM in the Dolan Era has adopted a true rebuilding plan, even though it was the basis of all of the good teams in the league’s rise to elitism.

      Phil Jackson never said he was going on a long rebuild. The internet/media make up stuff, and then debates with themselves.

    46. djphan

      it’s a bit ridiculous to draw up a path to a championship…. but there’s signficant value in building a team with a ceiling of 50 wins…. hell even 45 wins.. just look at the hawks and if the teams and markets were switched i’d bet that we would be realistic destinations in alot of these FA chases…

    47. Brian Cronin

      Isn’t the rumor out there that the Wizards are prepared to go to a full max offer for Noah if that’s what it takes to get him? Mitch Lawrence is an annoying guy to read, but he tends to be good with sources, and that’s what he said in the Sporting News. I could definitely seeing Noah taking less money to play in New York with his pal, D-Rose. I don’t think I could see him turning down a four-year max offer, though.

    48. djphan

      that got debunked by some wizards beat writers… so it’s at best murky that noah gets a max deal… i feel like that was an agent leak or just made up.. because there’s no reason that a team would leak that…

    49. reub

      Or just sign Bourousis for $5 mil if he wants to come over. I think Phil has a replacement for Rolo in his mind already.

    50. chrisk06811

      I was on Kohls.com this AM. You can buy an autographed Bernard King bball for $150. Or, you can buy an autographed Andrea Barnani bball for $185. Yup, you read that right.

      They also have an autographed 8*10 of Bernard King shooting over Larry Bird for $105, which I am seriously considering buying

    51. GoldClub

      There is one simple path to a championship — all the other paths are riskier or take a lot longer. This path requires only one more year of patience. Everyone else espousing some alternate strategy is just flat out wrong. It is mind numbingly obvious. It doesn’t take any knowledge of advance basketball statistics to understand….

      Don’t sign long term contracts this year unless Whiteside or Batum (or KD or LBJ) fall in our lap. Preserve enough room for two max guys to come here next year. There is absolutely no reason why two of the premier guys shouldn’t want to come here to play with Melo and KP next year.

      THAT IS IT…THAT IS THE VALUE MAXIMIZING STRATEGY…I DARE YOU TO COME UP WITH ANOTHER STRATEGY THAT HAS A HIGHER PROBABILITY OF BRINGING A CHAMPIONSHIP TO NYC.

    52. JK47

      Winning in a salary cap league is all about getting surplus value on contracts. You can do that in a few different ways:
      1. Have productive players on rookie contracts
      2. Sign bona fide superstars like LeBron James, whose value far exceeds the max NBA contract
      3. Find other bargain “diamond in the rough” free agents at discount prices

      That’s it. Conversely the things to avoid are:
      1. Not having enough draft picks to acquire productive players on rookie contracts
      2. Giving out max contracts to players like Carmelo Anthony who do not give you surplus value
      3. Paying “market rate” for other free agents, who also do not give you surplus value

      Who do the Knicks have on the roster right now who figures to outperform his contract? Porzingis is one guy who very well might. Other than that…. who? Maybe some of the fringe guys like Galloway or Hernangomez, but those guys figure to be role players. The Knicks have what, like $46M tied up this season in Derrick Rose and Carmelo Anthony. Melo is entering his age 32 season and for the first two years of the MMM contract he has a .530 TS% and a .112 WS48. Derrick Rose has been a terrible and injury prone player for four and half years. Right off that bat, that’s a $46M hole you’re starting in.

      Phil has not shown any inclination to move players like Tyson Chandler and Robin Lopez for draft picks or quality players on rookie contracts– he has moved them for veteran “win now” players of highly questionable value. His plan seems to be to try to hit a big home run in 2017 free agency. But is that really a great strategy? I look at the 2017 FA class and most of the true max, surplus value players seem like guys who will never come here– LeBron and Steph Curry being the obvious examples. So it’s kind of like Russell Westbrook or bust. Seems like a very shaky strategy to me.

    53. JK47

      Is there anybody else from the 2017 FA class I’m forgetting? I’m looking at the list on SportRac, and the names I’m seeing are: Steph Curry, LeBron James, Derrick Rose, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, Andrew Bogut, Serge Ibaka, Andre Iguodala, Amir Johnson, Jrue Holiday, George Hill, Jeff Teague…

      The only guys I’d want from that FA class on a max contract are probably Steph, LeBron and Westbrook. I’m not really feeling Blake Griffin on a max contract and I’m damn sure not feeling any of those other names.

    54. Frank

      There’s that Chris Paul guy also. Supposedly he’s ok. Hey, doesn’t he know someone on our team pretty well?

      I think you’re missing all the player option / ETO guys. Which include:
      CP3
      Hayward
      Gallinari
      Lowry
      Millsap

      And a bunch of less prominent guys like:
      Teague
      George Hill
      JJ Redick
      Shaun Livingston

      Steven Adams will be interesting — he’s a RFA next year — and you KNOW that KD/Westbrook will want to get maxed next summer, which will be what, $70MM just for those 2 guys? Plus they’re paying Kanter 19MM or something. Oladipo will be a RFA too. Given how allergic OKC has been to paying the tax, it might be possible to steal one of those FAs early in the process while KD/Russ make up their minds.

      Assuming KD stays there for a 1+1 of course.

    55. Zanzibar

      I think Phil’s priority is 2016 not 2017. I think he desperately wants to make the playoffs this year and future flexibility is a lower priority. He wants vet starters. He hopes Rose will stay healthy and really ball in a contract year. He’ll pick up an SG like Crawford or Lee. My guess is his first choice at center is Noah but he’s not taking a 1 year deal so Phil will have to offer him something like a 4 year/75m deal. Pau on a 1 year 18-20m deal would be best in terms of flexibility but man Rose/Pau/Melo/Crawford would be terrible on defense. I think this is a one-and-done year for Phil in that I think he plans to leave no matter what. He hopes to declare victory by citing KP and making the playoffs.

    56. JK47

      Right, Chris Paul, that’s one I forgot. The other ETO guys– Lowry, Gallinari, Hayward, Milsap, etc– are not true max contract guys and will likely be overpaid in next year’s market.

      Still kind of a tough needle to thread. Russell Westbrook’s next contract will span his age 29-33 seasons, while Paul’s will span his age 32-36 seasons. Chris Paul is obviously an all-time great player, and I’d be cool with signing up for his age 32-36 seasons because I think he has a good chance of having a John Stockton-like aging curve. And Westbrook would be a great signing, no doubt.

      But there are going to be lots of teams chasing after those guys. If you whiff on those two, and presuming LeBron and Curry don’t want to come to NYC, that’s kind of a tough position for the Knicks to be in, as they will probably do what they always do: settle for a max FA who isn’t worth the contract.

    57. JK47

      I think Phil’s priority is 2016 not 2017. I think he desperately wants to make the playoffs this year and future flexibility is a lower priority.

      If this is the case– and I expect you might be right– then Phil is a fucking DISASTER of a GM. Loading up for one year with no long-term vision is the very definition of Knicksy.

    58. Frank

      I wouldn’t take all the rumors about Crawford/Derozan etc. too seriously.
      This time of year agents are stirring up rumors trying to get a buzz going about their clients.
      seriously, someone really thinks the Wizards would max out Noah when they already have a probably superior player in Gortat? What sense does that make?

      They MUST be looking at wing 3-D guys. They have to know that Melo and Rose are not good defenders. IMHO that means they’ll look mostly at Batum, Bazemore, and Lee.

      Chandler Parsons would be pretty interesting, although he’s more a 3-4 than a 2-3 kind of guy.

      I sort of feel like Noah makes too much sense for it not to happen, unless he’s really looking for a big contract for 3+ years. Phil has to resist that.

    59. reub

      I’m hoping that we sign Noah right away so that we can show KD what a great team we have waiting for him.

    60. Zanzibar

      This is Noah’s last chance to make some money so he’s gotta be seeking a big payday. If he’s able to get 18m/year, that prices us out of the market for the Bazemore (who will get a Carroll 16m+ deal) and we’re looking at Crawford or Lee (we have 31m cap available). If Pau would take a 2yr 30m deal, we might be able to sign Bazemore. I think Phil would much prefer Noah/Crawford to Mahinmi/Bazemore or Biyombo/Bazemore.

    61. Frank

      Noah’s made ~$60MM in his career already.
      Not sure what kind of guy he is — is he Dirk-ish or Duncan-ish or is he a guy that has to make every last dollar? He’s from NYC, loves NYC, apparently loves playing with Rose. Hopefully he takes a discount. Not sure what his market would be anyway given how he has dropped off the last 2 years (even if due to injury).

    62. reub

      Begley just tweeted that we have Rose’s Bird rights for next season so that we can sign free agents up to the new (and much higher) cap next year and then go over the cap to sign Rose. If Rose pans out this is like a $21 million advantage!

    63. JK47

      I’m gonna go ahead and throw out a big “meh” to the idea of signing Joakim Noah.

      Noah has a lot of wear and tear on him for a 31 year old. He generally misses 15-18 games per year with various injuries and over the last couple of years his offensive efficiency has gone in the toilet. We can write off last year as an aberration I guess, but the year before that he was mostly healthy and had a very difficult time throwing the ball into the basket, posting an unsightly .445 eFG%. I know you don’t sign Noah for his scoring, but you’re replacing RoLo and his efficient offense with a guy who is for all intents and purposes a complete zero on the offensive end.

      Great passer for a big, still gets after it on defense when he’s healthy, still rebounds well, but he’s heading into the teeth of his decline phase and he is not particularly durable to begin with. A Rose-bargain SG-Melo-Porzingis-Noah lineup is going to have absolutely massive eFG% problems.

    64. Zanzibar

      Noah’s made ~$60MM in his career already.
      Not sure what kind of guy he is — is he Dirk-ish or Duncan-ish or is he a guy that has to make every last dollar? He’s from NYC, loves NYC, apparently loves playing with Rose. Hopefully he takes a discount. Not sure what his market would be anyway given how he has dropped off the last 2 years (even if due to injury).

      I think Rose said that he’s talked to Noah many times and is putting the hard sell on him to join the Knicks. I got the sense that Noah does want to join the Knicks. But Rose also said – and this is the ominous part – that Noah, like Melo, has got to consider the financial part as well. So Noah wants to play for NYK but also wants to get paid is my takeaway.

    65. reub

      Man this time of year is more exciting than the actual season. The possibilities are infinite.

    66. reub

      Begley just tweeted that we have
      Rose’s Bird rights for next season
      so that we can sign free agents up
      to the new (and much higher) cap
      next year and then go over the
      cap to sign Rose. If Rose pans out
      this is like a $21 million
      advantage!

      Disregard this as Begley updated his tweet.

    67. djphan

      with the move we made when we did you can narrow down who our targets are…

      we have ~30mm if we’re not renouncing gallo/thomas… we’re likely out of the howard range… and we’re unlikely to sign whiteside, horford and durant given how many roster spots we have still open and they’re probably not comign anyway….

      that leaves some combination of the mid-tier guys… and i think it’s going to wind up being one of gasol, noah or bazemore and c.lee/henderson/mahinmi/mozgov out the next tier .. possibly plumlee on an oquinn type of deal out of the next tier..

      gasol and phil has a documented close relationship… i feel like he’s our first choice and i have no idea what he’ll get but i’m hoping it’s less than 4 years… with noah again ideally it’s less than 4 years and with noah it shouldn’t be more than 2…. whether it’s gasol or noah it’s likely we’ll pair him with either c.lee or henderson signing.. there aren’t many competent shooters on the market and hornacek needs a shooter… so either should command at least 10mm and more likely 15mm on a 4 yr deal…

      the other way to go is to nab bazemore and mahinmi or mozgov….

      i particularly don’t like either choice…. mid tier FA’s are usually bad investments esp on long term deals… if phil can get out of this offseason without two bad contracts i’d consider that a huge win….

    68. thenoblefacehumper

      So what you’re saying is you don’t have a plan. You just like to criticize the current one. Which is fine, (again, I didn’t like the Rose/Lopez trade!) but just like the Republicans and Obamacare, dissent is much more powerful if you can present a viable alternative, rather than talking about Melo 3 years ago and Ed Davis last year.

      I mean, I actually named six specific players I would target. All I’m saying is it feels like a pointless exercise at this point. We have a GM/president/resident hippie who thinks Derrick Rose is still a good player, to say nothing of his other mediocre-to-shitty moves. I’ve held out hope the last few offseasons that we’d target the Aminus, Ed Davis’, and Biyombos of the world only to wind up with the Jason Smiths and Arron Afflalos, usually at higher prices than the first group. This trade made me feel more hopeless about the future than other shitty moves, not just because of its specific future implications (which aren’t good, Lopez and Grant were assets we no longer have), but because of what it says about Jackson’s evaluative abilities.

    69. thenoblefacehumper

      There is one simple path to a championship — all the other paths are riskier or take a lot longer. This path requires only one more year of patience. Everyone else espousing some alternate strategy is just flat out wrong. It is mind numbingly obvious. It doesn’t take any knowledge of advance basketball statistics to understand….

      Don’t sign long term contracts this year unless Whiteside or Batum (or KD or LBJ) fall in our lap. Preserve enough room for two max guys to come here next year. There is absolutely no reason why two of the premier guys shouldn’t want to come here to play with Melo and KP next year.

      This is either great satire of the classic Knicks’ mindset that has brought us 15+ years of irrelevance, or a sign that some of us will just never learn.

    70. reub

      facehumper have you submitted your resume to the Knicks to replace Phil? Have you heard back from them?

    71. thenoblefacehumper

      facehumper have you submitted your resume to the Knicks to replace Phil? Have you heard back from them?

      Normally I don’t feed the troll but I just want to say one thing about the “do you have a better idea???” defense. Ignoring the fact that I and just about every other critical poster have in fact advocated for specific transactions on multiple occasions, we aren’t getting paid $60 million dollars. That’s where the Republicans with regards to Obamacare example falls flat; it’s not my job to get the Knicks on a reasonable path to contention. It’s perfectly reasonable to hold Mr. 11 Ringz, and his exorbitant salary, to a higher standard of plan articulation than people who follow the Knicks as an admittedly unhealthy hobby.

    72. thenoblefacehumper

      And just to be clear, I recognize that the root cause of the clusterfuck that is the New York Knicks isn’t Phil Jackson at all. It’s James fucking Dolan and that will continue to be the case until he’s gone.

    73. GoNyGoNYGo

      What an interesting challenge: “What is your plan?” I love it! Indeed, what is your plan? What would you do from this moment on to win a championship? How long would it take?

      I was once pretty sure that it took a “big-3″ with lots of good peripheral parts. Now I’m pretty sure that I don’t have an answer. I’m quick to criticize Phil Jackson but I’m pretty sure there’s no plan out there that will win one in the next 3 years, the end of his contract. Is he doomed to fail? Does anyone have a plan like that?

      This is what I’m seeing that’s positive about the Phil regime:
      1) We have all our future 1st round picks and we’re only down two 2nd round picks overall (we get 3 coming to us and we’re sending 5 out to other teams) RealGM
      2) We’ve got cap space.
      3) We have a future star.

      This is what I’m seeing that’s negative about the Phil regime:
      1) He sold off pieces for far less than they were worth
      2) He’s run through 2 coaches in 2 years and is on his 3rd..
      3) The team has an incredibly bad losing record under him (49-115). Yes, his teams have not won 50 games in total yet.
      4) He’s tip-toeing around a single star player that’s may not even be in the top-20 any longer.
      5) He hasn’t developed any young players that have been given a chance.

      How would YOU run the team? I’m looking for GM candidates. (DRed’s got a foot in the door )

    74. mase

      Doesn’t it seem like the people who hate the rose trade are the same ones who hated drafting KP!

    75. Aten

      @83

      You play moneyball. Name recognition is overpriced. Production is underpriced. It’s really that simple. Acting as though there’s some big mystery to all of this is only useful for people who have the time and the inclination to try to talk themselves into the notion that what they hope will happen and what they expect to happen are the same thing.

    76. KnickfaninNJ

      Ok, I’ll give a shot at how I’d run the team. I’d try to accumulate young guys with potential to be competent NBA players in the way Charlotte and Boston have. This means looking for a lot mid first round draft picks and keeping the Jerian Grants of the world. This does not mean going for the fences. Last year it might have meant trading the number four pick for several lower picks. Then, as this talent starts to mature, I’d look to trade for good players in uncomfortable positions with their current team.

      This strategy has the downside that it’s likely to end up with a meh team that makes the playoffs but can’t do much with them (like the aforementioned Boston and Charlotte). But, unlike many fans, I’m ok with that, because I mostly just want decent games to watch and they have been in short supply the past two seasons. I don’t want to sacrifice many seasons for a small shot at being a real contender.

      I mostly liked Phil’s moves up to now, because he seemed to be mostly doing this. And, if you think Rose is a good player who was in an unhappy situation on the Bulls, he’s kind of still doing this, just trading the young guys too early. But I agree with the general board sentiment that Rose is not good, so I hate this trade. But as a fan, I am hoping that I am wrong.

    77. Zanzibar

      Doesn’t it seem like the people who hate the rose trade are the same ones who hated drafting KP!

      Hey let the record show I am no “follower of Cock” (as Darrell H put it)!

      Whoa I just looked at Bref and Crawford is 36yo? Time flies. Take him off the list (maybe room exception?). I’ll go on record and say Phil will spend 15-20m/yr on a 3-4 yr deal for Noah and then sign one of Lee/Dudley/Mayo. If some team outbids him for Noah, I’d say Pau on a 1-2 yr deal but I don’t know if Pau and Rose got along on Bulls so Pau might not be an option. Note: I’m not saying that’s what Phil should do, just what I think Phil will do.

    78. djphan

      instead of a path to a championship… it’s really all about doing things more efficiently…. he could’ve had the rose deal after FA and by waiting he might’ve been able to either hang onto lopez if the market for gasol or noah gets out of control… or got more for lopez…

      houston or dallas wouldn’t have traded a first.. possibly multiple… if they struck out on horford, howard and whiteside? at the very worst… we could’ve done the same exact deal… this is a plan D move that they thought should be plan A.. they’ve gained nothing from doing this deal now…

    79. KnickfaninNJ

      I didn’t hate drafting KP. I knew nothing about him, but knew the Knicks have a reasonable track record getting talent from Europe, so I thought, maybe he’s the best choice, let’s wait and see. I do gate the Rose trade.

    80. GoldClub

      This is either great satire of the classic Knicks’ mindset that has brought us 15+ years of irrelevance, or a sign that some of us will just never learn.

      Saying this is satire doesn’t make it so. As they say, NFH, you can’t see the forest through the trees. You are so bogged down in the minutiae of small components of value, you can see that there is a rather unprecedented opportunity for the Knicks to add two top max FA’s in 2017. If you can’t see that 2 of CP3/Durant/LBJ/Whiteside/Batum/Westbrook or even Lowrey/Millsap/Horford at 45-55mm is far superior value to Robin Lopez/13mm+Grant/4mm and the likes of Noah/18mm, Turner/16mm, etc. then the only conclusion I can draw is that you don’t understand value.

      If instead you are trying to make a different point that no way would 2 of those guys come to NYK…you also misread the situation. As long as we don’t have any albatross contracts and have Melo+KP+the mecca that is MSG there is a very good chance that they will come. Why wouldn’t they??? Melo+KP+2 = big 4 = champion. Building a champion in basketball crazed NYC after the winter we’ve been through is legacy.

    81. Cock Jowles, A Living, Breathing, Complex Organism

      Just want to remind everyone what happens when you listen to posters like Frank instead of posters like me:

      http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-monday-sep-10-2012/#comment-403679

      I’ve said it 100 times and I’ll say it again – just because a system can predict one or two Ty Lawsons doesn’t mean that it should be forgiven for predicting greatness for Nick Fazekas, Ahmad Nivins, Lester Hudson, Brian Zoubek, Hassan Whiteside, etc. Like Bill Clinton just said, even a broken clock is right 2x/day.

      Hassan Whiteside

      Like Bill Clinton just said, even a broken clock is right 2x/day.

      Cock Jowles for President of Basketball Operations

    82. GoldClub

      The only conceivable reason for doing the Rose deal now is if Roae attracts a premier FA (not saying this is likely, but we will know soon enough). Otherwise I agree 100pct we would have done better by waiting.

    83. Totes McGoats

      I miss Jamal Crawford, but I’d hate to see a backcourt of he and Rose..unless Rose somehow morphs into Derek Harper defensively. Anyways..
      At the end of the day, I am a Knicks fan and will get behind every move they make. I will cheer for every player, and look for the silver lining. That said, I’ve finally found a thought to express that is honestly optimistic about the Rose trade, and quite factorial- though it comes with the caveat of good health. If Derrick Rose is as healthy as he says he is, having him on the squad is not so bad because he would become quite the weapon as the 3rd option. If defenses have to focus on Melo and KP, AND worry about a healthy D Rose, then they are already halfway up shit’s creek when they step on the floor. Hell..to be honest, if Rose plays like he did post all star break last season, then he’s still quite the 3rd weapon- albeit not as dynamic as he should be. But dangerous nonetheless. So from this point on, I’m optimistically and anxiously in wait and see mode. Go Knicks.

      PS: A healthy Noah wouldn’t hurt either. Ditto for adding Whiteside & Daniels…

    84. Donnie Walsh

      Doesn’t it seem like the people who hate the rose trade are the same ones who hated drafting KP!

      Nope. I dont know why you’d think that. The people that liked the KP pick last year were the people who have been preaching a rebuild. It was a breath of air for all of us, after 15 years of trading youth for aging rock stars.

      And if you don’t believe me, all you have to do is read the thread from exactly 1 year ago today:

      http://knickerblogger.net/kristaps-porzingis-round-table-discussion/

    85. thenoblefacehumper

      If you can’t see that 2 of CP3/Durant/LBJ/Whiteside/Batum/Westbrook or even Lowrey/Millsap/Horford at 45-55mm is far superior value to Robin Lopez/13mm+Grant/4mm and the likes of Noah/18mm, Turner/16mm, etc. then the only conclusion I can draw is that you don’t understand value.

      When did I advocate for signing Noah and Turner, let alone at those prices? Joakim Noah appears to have aged very quickly and would almost certainly do nothing for a team that isn’t winning jackshit for the next few years, and Turner is decent at some stuff but not close to surplus value at that price.

      Your plan is to hold out hope that two elite players will forego far superior situations (remember, everyone and their mother is going to have boatloads of cap space) to play with a 33 year old Melo and a developing Porzingis. Could it happen? Sure! Just like it could’ve happened in 2010. I just figured most of us would’ve learned that putting all your eggs in that particular basket is a shitty idea. So what happens when the Currys and LeBrons of the world shockingly leave us at the altar? Even if, for whatever reason, you regard that as unlikely you do have to prepare for it. Do we spend all the money on that offseason’s version(s) of Stoudemire?

    86. reub

      Galloway got married? I can’t believe that Phil let him do that! We’re ruined!! Phil is senile and has to go now.

    87. KnickfaninNJ

      Two superior players who are both free for free agency at the same time and want to come play together is very rare. Even if there were such a pair in 2017, they’d have to want to come to NY, instead of say Miami or LA. So that’s a long shot and I don’t think it’s a good strategy to go after that. But good players in unhappy situations do occur. We have to try to pick them up as they become available. One likely to occur in 2017 is Cousins. I know people don’t like him, but, honestly, he’s a great player. Him, KP, Melo would be a really intimidating front line. But there could be others too. The contract for Nerlens Noel expires in 2017 and so does Serge Ibaka’s. They might not be overjoyed with their current teams. I know Philadelphia is trying to trade Noel, but there just doesn’t seem to be a great market for him, so he could end up back there this year.

      For shooting guards this year, an area of need, two guards who might be unhappy with their current teams are Seth Curry, because the Kings draft so incompetently, and Dion Waiters, because he probably just got displaced by Oladipo. Having seen the players Phil goes after, I think there is a serious chance we end with Waiters. Not my preference at all, just my prediction.

    88. Z-man

      Yeah, that draft night was the apex of Phil’s popularity on this site (except for Jowles and his alter ego hoolahoop.) In retrospect, Phil would have done better to ask Atlanta to draft Bobby Portis with #19, but it was a good gamble.

      Or maybe it was when the Knicks were 22-22 last year…and RoLo was everyone’s cat’s meow.

      Ah, good times, good times…so fleeting…

      Unless Rose excites the shit out of the Garden next year, along with signings to be made in July.

    89. GoldClub

      Your plan is to hold out hope that two elite players will forego far superior situations (remember, everyone and their mother is going to have boatloads of cap space) to play with a 33 year old Melo and a developing Porzingis. Could it happen? Sure! Just like it could’ve happened in 2010. I just figured most of us would’ve learned that putting all your eggs in that particular basket is a shitty idea. So what happens when the Currys and LeBrons of the world shockingly leave us at the altar? Even if, for whatever reason, you regard that as unlikely you do have to prepare for it. Do we spend all the money on that offseason’s version(s) of Stoudemire?

      This is a vastly different situation. First off I’ve listed nine players — we only need to convince two of them. Second, have we ever had cap room to sign two top talents? Third, you are underestimating the attractiveness of KP + Melo. We don’t even need to have a debate about how good Melo is. KP and Melo are widely viewed in the league to be top 50 talents. The target players know they themselves are top 50 talents and so their perspective will be that they will be joining a team that will have four top 50 talents. That is all that matters. So, KP + Melo + any two of the above = a team that can compete for a championship. Also there will be a few good picks joining us in 2017. This is a far superior strategy then trying too eke out marginal excess value by replicating decent value contracts like Lopez. NFH, THC&J, I believe you can see the logic in what I am saying if you consider the situation with an open mind.

    90. Donnie Walsh

      have we ever had cap room to sign two top talents?

      Yes, 2010. And the problem then was that NY wasn’t a top destination for top talent.

    91. GoldClub

      Donnie, I know we all have been abused by Knicksy stupidity for too many years, you must see this is different. Did we have two players widely considered by the league to be top 50 talents then?

    92. Donnie Walsh

      Donnie, I know we all have been abused by Knicksy stupidity for too many years, you must see this is different. Did we have two players widely considered by the league to be top 50 talents then?

      I mean, as much as we have now, right? Who are our “top 50″ players? Anthony and Porzingis? In 2010 we had All Star David Lee and the upwardly mobile Danillo Gallinari.

    93. Z-man

      My hopes for opening day roster:
      Melo
      Zinger
      Rose
      Gasol or Noah
      Batum, Bazemore or Fournier
      Lin
      WillyH
      Lance
      Gallo
      JCraw (on a cheap deal)
      David Lee
      O’Quinn
      3 assorted minimum guys

    94. GoldClub

      Cmon Donnie, you can’t possibly tell me that Lee and Galo were perceived by the league anything close to KP and Melo. Remember, it doesn’t matter what we think of them, only what our FA targets think of them.

    95. KnickfaninNJ

      Goldcup, I don’t see it as different. I agree that this time we have KP and Melo, but I still think we are going to have to persuade players to come one at a time, not two at once. Two top players who want to play together are going to have choices where to go, and may not like NY. I don’t think NY is such an attractive destination compared to other places with NBA teams. Melo wanted NY because of his wife’s career. How many other people are in his situation?

    96. Z-man

      Oh, I’ve never been down on Lin per se. My diatribes have always been aimed at anyone who thought that any smart GM would have matched Lin’s poison pill offer. I said at the time that while I hoped Dolan would have matched, I totally understand why he chose not to. I said that the real idiot in the scenario was Morey for making that offer in the first place. And to this day I believe that I was right at the time and that hindsight proves it…it cost Morey a 1st round pick to jettison Lin in his final contract year.

      However, I always felt that Lin was a very good backup PG at the right price. He’s clearly not a starter on a good team…that’s been proven, right?

    97. GoldClub

      KnickfaninNJ — it is completely different. As long as we don’t burn our cap space this year, we don’t have to convince them one at a time — we convince them at once. Hell, we may not even need to convince anyone — these players want to set their own destiny and may team up to come here. This is what LBJ did in the decision. And you are wrong — we assume NY is unattractive because it has been unattractive for years — because our teams have sucked as potential destinations. KP + Melo is different. The attractions of NY have been irrelevant because no one would want to join the steaming pile of contracts on our rosters for the past 20 years. As long as we don’t add any, we won’t have any bad contracts. The biggest media market, in the Mecca of basketball, in basketball crazed NY, with all the endorsement opportunity that NY brings will be attractive. Phil just has to not screw it up and be patient for one more year. Further, this strategy isn’t much different than a rebuild strategy — either we get lucky and get the guy we need this year (Batum, Whiteside, KD, LBJ) or we wait for next year, don’t sign any long term deals that won’t be eminately tradeable, keep our draft picks and wait for 17. This IS the optimal strategy. IF You don’t agree (you are wrong) but for the sake of argument please propose a superior strategy and I have no pride of authorship — I will gladly acknowledge a better strategy.

    98. JK47

      Phil is probably gonna have to burn some of that 2017 cap space to put a 2016 team on the floor though, right? This is a free agent market that is flooded with cash, and I can’t believe there are going to be too many players willing to sign one-year contracts in a year where salary inflation is going to be rampant. If the idea is to try to compete this year with Derrick Rose, Phil is going to need a center and a shooting guard from this year’s free agent class at the very minimum.

    99. JK47

      This IS the optimal strategy. IF You don’t agree (you are wrong) but for the sake of argument please propose a superior strategy and I have no pride of authorship — I will gladly acknowledge a better strategy.

      This might be the best strategy NOW, but this is only because Phil closed the door already on better strategies such as “don’t give a max contract extension to Carmelo Anthony” and “don’t trade Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant for Derrick Rose.” At this point, yeah, sure, let’s hope Phil kicks major ass in free agency and somehow gets Whiteside and Chris Paul or something. It’s the best we can hope for NOW, so, uh, good luck Phil. Please don’t sign Joakim Noah to some terrible long-term contract, kthxbai.

    100. Donnie Walsh

      @107

      Honestly, I don’t know. Anthony will be another year older, and we’ll see about his durability during this season. And KP has a lot of promise, but he wasn’t a mind-blowing rookie.

      In 2010, the Knicks actually had Stoudemire in the bag already, so the team did have a star + young, highly drafted talent. That wasn’t enough to convince LeBron, Bosh, Wade, or even Joe Johnson to come to New York.

      The save up cap space to buy a team full of stars is more of a crap shoot than just investing in the draft for a few years. It has been successful once, and the Knicks got it wrong then and will get it wrong again next time. (And if you don’t believe me, just ask DRed, who is literally never wrong about anything).

    101. KnickfaninNJ

      this strategy isn’t much different than a rebuild strategy — either we get lucky and get the guy we need this year (Batum, Whiteside, KD, LBJ) or we wait for next year, don’t sign any long term deals that won’t be eminately tradeable, keep our draft picks and wait for 17.

      I don’t disagree with this strategy at all. I am not sure why you think that. And I did propose a strategy a few posts ago, so I’m not sure why you are asking me for my proposed strategy. I said we should be opportunistic about trades for good players and free agents are the same in that regard. But we have to find players who want a change from their current team or who are a bad fit there, because the home team almost always has an advantage in the money they can offer.

      But I don’t agree that NYC is an especially attractive place for an NBA player to come. It’s ok, and generally more attractive than a number of teams, especially the small market ones. But there are going to be good teams in the league who are also making room for good players and who have good appeal of their own. If you’re a single 20 something and want to carouse, Miami and LA are probably just as appealing as NY if not more so. If you want to play with other good players, Golden State is recruiting, and Minnesota has Towns, Wiggens and $34M in cap space. If you want low taxes you might choose Texas. We do have Rose, Melo and KP, so we are not bereft of players other players want to play with; but there is lots of competition. In the same way that fans tend to overvalue their good character role players who are on their own team, I think we often overvalue the lure of playing in the Mecca of Basketball.

    102. thenoblefacehumper

      irst off I’ve listed nine players — we only need to convince two of them. Second, have we ever had cap room to sign two top talents?

      The players you listed will be free agents in different offseasons, and have a drastic range in productivity. I do not think that, say, Lowry and Millsap make us anything close to a legitimate contender. Obviously when elite players reach free agency and you have max space, you make the damn calls. But to say this is the optimal way to go about building a team is pretty much the opposite of the truth. It’s more like a hail marry after dropping the ball on multiple opportunities to actually go through a real rebuild involving draft picks, undervalued players, and no Mega Max Melos with no trade clauses.

    103. GoldClub

      TNFH — just for fun, let’s mix and match without selecting the two least attractive players on the list. Second, short of a time machine, we have the hand we are dealt right now and right now this is the optimal strategy. I also think before the rose trade the optimal strategy was quite similar — the only issue I have with the Rose trade is I don’t think the probablity of Rose potentially attracting a tier 1 FA this year is likely enough to warrant the trade now, I would have waited until during FA period at least since I think we could have got more.

    104. latke

      The save up cap space to buy a team full of stars is more of a crap shoot than just investing in the draft for a few years.

      The save up cap space to buy a team full of stars strategy has never worked under any modern CBA if you DQ the Heat under the assumption that through Wade, Riley already knew CB and LBJ were coming.

      1999 CBA changed the game dramatically with restricted free agency and the max individual salary. 2005 and 2011 both closed a ton of loopholes. If we just look at teams that sometime after 02/03 had at least three straight seasons outside the playoffs and since then have won 55+ games in at least 2 of 3 seasons in a row, the list is quite short: OKC, CLE x2, ORL, GSW, LAC, MEM

      Q: Which of these teams’ best used free agency to acquire one or more of their best two players?

      A: Maybe ORL, depending on whether you rate Lewis as better than Nelson. CLE #2 brought LBJ back as a free agent, but I think we can all agree that that was a near unique situation.

      All the teams on the list’s best players began their careers on their teams or were traded for using draft picks they’d accumulated.

    105. Donnie Walsh

      Yeah, Latke, exactly.

      Only two teams have really succeeded in landing 2 top free agents in one summer: 2010 Heat and 2000 Magic. The Heat had success from it, the Magic didn’t.

      A much more dependable and time-tested way to build a team is through the draft. And not just one #4 pick, but multiple picks over multiple years.

    106. KnickfaninNJ

      The Grizzlies just picked up Wroten off of waivers. So the two guys on the Knicks who were young and who I thought had the most potential for improvement, Grant and Wroten, are gone we have Rose instead.

      “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss”

      Is all I can think of now. It’s depressing.

    107. latke

      @DW It made a lot more sense back when ORL did it too. Sign and trades got neutered in 2011, so the strategy of staying capped out and swapping expirings for new fresh faces doesn’t work anymore unless the player is cool with a pay cut. And because McGrady was drafted before 1999, his rookie deal was only three years, and I believe after he was unrestricted. Restricted free agency pretty much nuked the supply of quality young players on the free agency market, and if you take the long view (“what’s long view?” – Knicks), you aren’t just looking at a player’s value over his contract next year or even in the life of the contract. You’re looking at his entire career.

      If you sign a 23 year old budding star who you expect to produce at a level $10m over his contract throughout his prime, you’re talking about clearing $80m assuming you can re-sign him. Now, that same player isn’t available until at earliest, age 26. Instead, you’re looking at clearing $50m. Still great if you’re lucky enough to woo the guy, but considering how rarely it happens…

    108. Brian Cronin

      Excellent point, latke, about how the rules of the game have changed specifically to avoid the super teams. The odd thing, though, of course, is that the last time when this likely will be possible for the foreseeable future is this year and the next. Teams will have the room to sign one max guy this year and one max guy next year (if they work their cap correctly, of course). Will we see it actually happen? I doubt it, but it’s a possibility.

      The fascinating thing for me going forward is how the Knicks spend their money this offseason, as we will see whether they really are trying to go big in 2017 or not. I don’t like that strategy very much, but I like it a lot better than signing a couple of longterm talents this year, as that would suggest that Rose’s acquisition was about Rose and not the cleared cap space.

    109. Brian Cronin

      Finally getting around to watching Bill Simmons’ new show and he has this segment where Barkley tries to argue that Lebron is around the 8th best player of all-time, behind (among others) Duncan and Kobe. That’s certainly…something.

    110. Knew Your Nicks

      Phil brought us JGrant,Rolo,Wroten and the same guy released them while trying to upgrade the team.
      I really don’t understand why many feel as we lost Pat Ewing in his prime…
      Chill out people, there are WWAAYY many more people playing pro-basketball out there.
      There are not only those 3 and John Lucas the 3rd !!!!!
      STAY POSITIVE

    111. BklnBoy

      Phil brought us JGrant,Rolo,Wroten and the same guy released them while trying to upgrade the team.
      I really don’t understand why many feel as we lost Pat Ewing in his prime…
      Chill out people, there are WWAAYY many more people playing pro-basketball out there.
      There are not only those 3 and John Lucas the 3rd !!!!!
      STAY POSITIVE

      These are the same people that wept last summer when we didn’t sign summer-league god Maurice N’Dour

    112. Z-man

      One big difference is that we actually CAN rebuild through the draft! The Rose trade had a net return of one 2nd round pick. If signing Rose made us worse for next year (and beyond) then unlike in past years, we will actually benefit from being bad. That in and of itself is a sea change for this franchise. The Knicks absolutely did not choose building through trades and free agency over building through the draft. Both routes are still wide open, maybe like never before for this franchise.

      The other thing is that open roster spots and cap space have become a way to get young players on cheap contracts at any point. Due to a lack of expansion, the NBA has a lot of talented, servicable, or promising players, young and old, who become available via waiver wire post-deadline, or international route, or D-League. Good GMs find these guys and pounce on them. Case in point: Hassan Whiteside, who any team in the NBA could have signed.

      Can someone do the research and tell me when the last time was that the Knicks had all of its future 1st round picks? For sure, the year has to start with 19–, right? Maybe 198-?

    113. KnickfaninNJ

      These are the same people that wept last summer when we didn’t sign summer-league god Maurice N’Dour

      No they are not

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