ESPN.com: Knicks’ parent company Madison Square Garden issues statement weeks after George Floyd’s killing

From Malika Andrews:

Eight days after Knicks owner James Dolan sent an email to the staff explaining why the Madison Square Garden Co. would not publicly comment on the outrage following George Floyd’s death, the company has issued a statement.

On Tuesday, the Knicks team account tweeted a statement from the Madison Square Garden sports and entertainment companies, saying “Every one of us has a role to play in creating a more just and equal society, where there is no racism, bigotry, violence or hate. We stand with all who act for positive change.”

The statement comes the same day as Floyd’s funeral in Houston. Floyd, who was black, was killed by a white police officer on May 25. Since then, protests have erupted across the country and several government officials have made commitments to adjust local laws. In New York, mayor Bill de Blasio said he will reallocate some New York Police Department funding to social and youth services.

Oooph.

To wait this long and for that to be their statement is so hilariously bad.

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208 thoughts to “ESPN.com: Knicks’ parent company Madison Square Garden issues statement weeks after George Floyd’s killing”

  1. The ineptitude is almost impressive.

    This was hard to screw up, but we rose to the challenge.

  2. Saying nothing was really shitty, was made worse by Dolan offering a cockamamie justification for saying nothing, and was then made even worse by eventually issuing an offensively pathetic statement.

    A real masterclass in being James Dolan!

  3. I am going to try to answer GoNY’s question in this new thread. The answer depends on who we draft. We should draft the best player available. I’m not much of a drafter, but the two players In the draft who seem Like they would be an NBA level
    player their first season are Wiseman and Haliburton. If we pick Haliburton, I would ditch DSJ and keep Frank and resign Payton and probably resign Gibson, depending on the free agent market for centers. If we get Wiseman, then we have to keep our current point guards, but probably don’t need Gibson. But Wiseman has to really be the BPA by more than a tiny margin for us to pick him since he fits so badly with Randle and Mitch. If we get someone else, and he’s a point guard, again I’d let DSJ go. If anyone else is drafted, he will probably be someone who takes a while to develop. So then I would then focus on picking a team that’s good at defense because we would have no hope of being good at offense. I don’t think it matters much who we keep. We have a bunch of serviceable NBA vets that could be resigned, and they would probably have similar usefulness.

  4. You know – previously having an African American-led front office (yes I know Mills but hear me out) and being so tight with Isiah fooled me into thinking Dolan just might have an ounce of sincerity about African Americans. Oops.

    I mean, none of us expected him to join protesters and start wearing #BLM shirts. But I’ve never read a more blatantly vanilla PR-crafted paragraph in my entire life. It’s the written equivalent of posting a picture of Barney with a rainbow in the background and a caption that reads “LETS ALL BE FRIENDS!” as a response.

    That statement says absolutely nothing. It’s a miracle none of my coworkers roasted me for this during our Zoom mtg today.

  5. First, my reaction to Dolan and the Knicks message. I refrain from politics here. This place is a haven. (Catch me on Twitter, where I’m, well, not reserved). Dolan is a Trump supporter. He’s part of the problem – a rich guy with power. How did you think a guy that would ban Charles Oakley and Spike Lee feels about all this? I am not surprised in the least. Dolan cannot ever disappoint me because I have no expectations of decency from him at all.

    @KnickfaninNJ

    GoNY, where is Harkless in your calculations?

    I didn’t list him because he’s a UFA and goes into that large pool of mediocre players that are UFAs this year. Note that I also left off our RFAs, Dotson, Trier, Rabb and Kadeem Allen.

    I would find a way to get rid of DS Jr too but the problem with your “dump DS Jr.” approach is that he’s signed and under contract. Unless he’s traded, he can’t be dumped without taking the cap hit of $5.7M. As for resigning Taj or Payton, they are already signed for $9.45M and $8M respectively. They both have $1M guaranteed. But of the 4 players, these are the two I would want also. I really like both of them. They are solid NBA players – not stars, but good players.

    Free agency always starts after the draft, so I agree the results of the draft will impact who we sign.

  6. other than his health, i’m okay with elf…when his back/legs are good and he can finish at the rim he’s pretty good…i expected him to be a better defender, but, that may be another health thing…

    taj at center doesn’t work for me…power forward off the bench sure, but, not at that salary…

    bullock, ellington, harkless all had their moments, but seem easily replaceable…

    you know we got to have bobby p back :)

  7. GoNY, you make a good point about DSJ. I hope he’s actually tradeable. If we draft a point guard, then we have four of them and, like you, I think Payton is worth keeping.

  8. Geo, Elfrid is probably priced right but with Frank, DSJr and a likely lottery pick PG, I’m not sure that there’s room for him. Frankly, if the cap drops like I expect it to, I would jettison the lot of those guys and reenter the FA market. We’ll get them, or a comparable replacement at a relative bargain.
    This is another argument against any insane CP3 trades.

    Quick edit for KnickfanNJ: I think there are comparable players. The good thing about Elf is it’s 1 more year. Other FA deals for decent PGs will be multi-year commitments.

  9. I wonder if a trade of DSjr plus cash for Malik Monk would make sense for Charlotte. Monk has been underwhelming and had a drug suspension, while DSjr is from NC. I’m not completely out on Monk as a evolving into a microwave scorer off the bench at some point.

  10. you’re right – we already have 2 backup point guards on the roster, and, will most likely draft a third…after a year elf still doesn’t seem like a nba starting level point guard most of the time – he did have a few moments though…

    getting any useful asset for DSjr at this point seems about as easy as transmuting poop in to gold…

  11. I’d probably keep Elfrid and Harkless if we can get him on a good deal. Teams are going to be wing hungry at the deadline, and Moe could be a useful trade asset. I don’t think we should treat DSJ like he’s going to play next season and aside from Payton there’s a significant chance all our PGs are terrible. There are plenty of minutes at guard for Payton, Frank and a rookie to share.. If you run into a minutes logjam Payton on an expiring deal is pretty tradeable. 8 million isn’t that much money and he’s at least a servicable vet for a team that might need an upgrade at backup PG.

  12. I wonder if a trade of DSjr plus cash for Malik Monk would make sense for Charlotte. Monk has been underwhelming and had a drug suspension, while DSjr is from NC. I’m not completely out on Monk as a evolving into a microwave scorer off the bench at some point.

    I do agree Monk has a slight chance of being a decent bench scorer down the line, so sure, I’d be down with that trade.

  13. My problem with a DS Jr for Monk trade is that it accomplishes virtually nothing other than bring in a troubled player.

  14. My problem with a DS Jr for Monk trade is that it accomplishes virtually nothing other than bring in a troubled player.

    But think of the upside! Monk has been Z-man’s pet since before the 2017 draft.

  15. They’re both useless players who will be gone after next season, but Monk at least plays a position they’re going to need a player at.

  16. Yeah, I’d do that trade with no expectations that anything comes out of it. But, it has the proverbial “change of scenery” chance of turning out okay, and both guys seem to have worn out their welcomes with their current teams.

  17. The Honorable Cock Jowles: But think of the upside! Monk has been Z-man’s pet since before the 2017 draft.

    He was?! I don’t remember that..my recollection is that I was in the “Anyone but Frank” camp…I liked DSjr (ugh!) but also both Collins’, Mitchell, and others.

  18. Monk is not really a PG. He’s an undersized shoot-first combo guard. His best role would be something like a Lou Williams-type, if he could be more consistent.

  19. Seriously, I am utterly revolted by DSjr’s game and would trade him for anything, or have no qualms with cutting him.

  20. An undersized combo guard is probably better than DSJ, but even so, I’m not sure why we want such a player, even if he improves

  21. To be fair, I found an old thread where you linked to statistical analysis that had Monk as the top prospect of the draft. He’s been a disappointment, and getting popped for cocaine use — meaning that somehow, he managed to have done a line or two 48-72 hours prior to one of his four random drug tests of the season — isn’t doing anything to fix that.

  22. Malik probably has a clearer path to becoming a useful player than DSJ. If he can hit 3s at a good clip he’d be an okayish player. He’s good at taking 3s, something the Knicks are bad at, but he’s gone from being a decent shooter to being awful last season. He’s an excellent FT shooter, and his TS% has increased every season even with his terrible year from downtown this season, so there’s probably a good chance he will shoot 3s better going forward. I’d happily swap DSJ for him.

  23. I’d rather get an expiring and a 2021 second rounder for DSJ tbh. Is that impossible right now?

  24. I’d rather get an expiring and a 2021 second rounder for DSJ tbh. Is that impossible right now?

    Probably, yeah.

  25. I’ll also throw in the fact that James Dolan’s shitty “blues” music is cultural appropriation at its worst

  26. For those who appreciate flashback experiences that lead to even greater paroxysms of rage, there’s this:

    ‘ Seth Curry and Tim Hardaway Jr. have been phenomenal complementary fits as spot-up threats (1.36 and 1.29 points per spot-up possession, respectively, ranking first and second among players with at least 150 opportunities).’

    I remember the days when people were arguing about picking up the less-spicy Curry for a test run.

    System, fit, coach, development, and/or playing with a superstar who knows how to pass. Discuss.

  27. And yet another Knick who gets better once he leaves the franchise. Sure, Hardaway still isn’t worth his contract, but Dolan’s “company” is such a ridiculous joke at this point, idk if Leon Rose and a team of new hires will even make a dent in this mess.

  28. The Steve Stoute Era is off to an inauspicious start.

    our public relations guy needs a public relations guy…

  29. Sources: As NBA and NBPA are finalizing terms on return-to-play plan today, there’s a faction of players discussing as a group whether restarting season in the Orlando bubble is a good idea. Several dozen players participated in a conference call in last 24 hours to discuss it.

    Do these guys wanna give up ALL of the rest of their salary for the year AND fuck the cap for, like, ever ????? or ????

    or ????????

    FUCK I want some FUCKING basketball

  30. And yet another Knick who gets better once he leaves the franchise. Sure, Hardaway still isn’t worth his contract, but Dolan’s “company” is such a ridiculous joke at this point, idk if Leon Rose and a team of new hires will even make a dent in this mess.

    Lots of players look better on good teams than on bad teams. I think it’s partly related to system and organizational stability. If the team you come to is we’ll organized and has a system that players know and are experienced with, then it’s easier to fit in and do your job. Almost certainly it’s also related to having better players around you. That gives you more openings to score and may mean you take fewer bad shots.

    The Knicks keep changing coaches and players, so they don’t have either a consistent system or stability. It’s one reason I lean toward keeping Miller as coach. He’s competent and they were just getting used to him. It’s easy to think of Atkinson as a good development coach but his first year with the Nets he was 20 and 62 and his second year he was 28 and 54. It was only his third year they were decent. It takes time to build team play. I think it will take him time with the Knicks too if he’s hired as coach.

  31. I’d sure rather have six cost-controlled years of Jared Kelenic, Justin Dunn, Anthony Kay, and Simeon Woods-Richardson than zero years of Marcus Stroman, two years of Edwin Diaz and Robinson Cano’s age 38-40 seasons

  32. Random thoughts as a pure NBA fan:
    1. Even though Whiteside’s contract is a bit egregious, if Portland really is committed to the backcourt of Lillard and McCollum, I think they are better off trading for Kevin Love with a package centered around Nurkic. Otherwise they are stuck because I don’t see them being able to move Whiteside or McCollum for better fits. For one, if they trade McCollum, they need to bring back a shooter. What kind of package, considering their roster, can they get back that is worthwhile? And secondly, who really wants Whiteside at that salary? Might as well make the most out of him and spread the floor around him.
    2. I would LOVE to see Embiid in Miami and Adebayo in Philly. Both of those teams would be SO much better if those two switched places. Philly would be an absolute terror. And Miami would be deadly efficient- so long as they can keep Embiid upright.
    3. Fuck Reggie Miller(actually this is from the Knicks fan in me) LOL

  33. Can’t ABC just buy the rights to use John Tesh’s basketball song for their coverage?

  34. Can’t forget Chris Dudley. In an elite group of bench mascots with little discernible talent. Maybe that career 43% ts% doesn’t tell the whole story though.

    Watching him shoot foul shots was quite entertaining though….

  35. JK47:
    I’d sure rather have six cost-controlled years of Jared Kelenic, Justin Dunn, Anthony Kay, and Simeon Woods-Richardson than zero years of Marcus Stroman, two years of Edwin Diaz and Robinson Cano’s age 38-40 seasons

    Now now. Be fair. The Mets got 1/2 season out of Stroman last year…

  36. Sobering.

    well, other than the patient missing a head and many key organs (are there any not so key) – they appear to be just fine otherwise…

    honestly, i know it would have served no purpose – i’m kind of bummed that we won’t get a chance to watch our colors/laundry play for another six months or so…as dysfunctional as they are – they are ours…

  37. See, this is my issue with RJ. If his calling card is ball-dominant playmaker, but he’s also worse than pretty much any other ball-dominant playmaker in the NBA, then why build around him?
    And maybe he’s even going to be a liability long-term (especially at his contract) since he can’t shoot, which is pretty important these days. Granted, he should improve some, but will he ever be a worthwhile complementary player when he doesn’t become the 2nd coming of Kobe?

  38. I hope that Ringer article is correct and Christian Wood goes for $10 million a year!

    That Ringer article is not correct.

  39. @KnickfaninNJ

    The Knicks keep changing coaches and players, so they don’t have either a consistent system or stability. It’s one reason I lean toward keeping Miller as coach. He’s competent and they were just getting used to him.

    I lean Miller too, for continuity too. But I think Woodson might be my #2 choice and it might be the prudent choice for the Knicks too because of how well MSG’s BLM message landed.

    @Raven

    I’d write something about the Knicks here, but I just read this Ringer piece that looks at the Knicks (among other teams) and frankly it could have been written by me. I appreciated the RJ factoid. Sobering.

    All of his shooting needs to improve. He needs to be embarrassed with that 40% FG%, 32% 3pt% and 61% from the line. Those are awful numbers. And guess who on the Knicks is worse than him… Knox! Wait, not all news is bad. Leading the league….. MITCH!

  40. both Kevin Knox and RJ Barrett showed up in new york ready to go to work on day 1…in a not always healthy or stable work environment…

    i know that ain’t got nothing to do with their performance on the court, but…

  41. …but they can’t shoot.

    I was listening to Raymond Felton on KnicksFanTV the other day. Felton said he’s not done. It got me to wonder, who wins this 5 on 5 game next year, no adjustments for age:

    Team 1: LaMelo Ball, RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, Julius Randle, Mitch Robinson
    vs.
    Team 2: Raymond Felton, JR Smith, Wilson Chandler, Carmelo Anthony, Tyson Chandler

  42. I’m optimistic about RJ’s shooting. His finishing with right hand improved, and he is not light years from decent 3-pt shooting. I think he’ll be al least a solid rotation player with a modest uptrend, given his decent rebounding, passing and defending.

  43. “both Kevin Knox and RJ Barrett showed up in new york ready to go to work on day 1…in a not always healthy or stable work environment…

    i know that ain’t got nothing to do with their performance on the court, but…”

    Wow…. I’m impressed they showed up to work to collect their combined 12 M for this sort of production:

    496th and 510th in VORP

    Yeah…. they could probably use a bit of directed practice!

  44. Wood might not get as much as normally, given the upcoming cap calamity. Same for FVV.

    I agree with that, but not as low as $10 million.

  45. I still like Bertans as a target.

    I’d especially love it if they got Bertans and dumped Randle.

  46. I’m optimistic about RJ’s shooting. His finishing with right hand improved, and he is not light years from decent 3-pt shooting. I think he’ll be al least a solid rotation player with a modest uptrend, given his decent rebounding, passing and defending.

    Hmmmmm…. he shot 65% over 224 attempts in college and 61.4% over 254 attempts for the knicks. How often do HORRIBLE FT shooters develop into acceptable 3 ball shooters. I mean if you can’t shoot when you have 10 seconds unguarded to set yourself from 15 feet how are you supposed to do it from 23?

    A solid rotation player with modest upside is kinda the soft bigotry of low expectations on steroids…. and he’s really a looooooong way away from that. He was literally one of the worst players in the NBA last season.

    He has some virtue to his game in other areas as you mentioned, and he is very young, but if he can’t shoot he clogs the floor for others and can be overplayed to his left.

    And this kid walked into the NBA with a fully finished NBA body with oooodles of experience for someone his age.

  47. I can’t really argue with you bob, it’s essentially guarded optimism vs. justified pessimism. We’ll see soon enough. Well, not really.

  48. “I can’t really argue with you bob, it’s essentially guarded optimism vs. justified pessimism. We’ll see soon enough. Well, not really.”

    Hey I’m hoping he becomes a real player, but I just don’t see many signs for optimism. If he had been drafted by Sacto we’d all be snickering and saying. “Wow…. another horrible move by Vlade!”

    I just hope new management refuses the options on all the 1+1 players and finds a way to take on 2 “chris paul-like” contracts to get another couple of picks. No one worth shit is coming to the Knicks next year not so much because of Dolan (granted he doesn’t help) but because this roster besides MR is completely devoid of talent.

    They have 7 bites of the apple the next 4 years and they might as well get a few more. Then, all they need is someone who knows an apple from a lemon! If they manage to stumble into a few good young palyers then maybe they will be attractive to top players

  49. Wow…. I’m impressed they showed up to work to collect their combined 12 M

    hmmmm, it sounds like those speedo briefs of yours may have somehow made their way up your incredibly clenched buttocks to rub away any good sense you may have once possessed from your asshole through your brain…

  50. “hmmmm, it sounds like those speedo briefs of yours may have somehow made their way up your incredibly clenched buttocks to rub away any good sense you may have once possessed from your asshole through your brain…”

    You talk a pretty strong game from behind a screen young fella.

    You lauded two horrible players for showing up to practice. Isn’t that part of the job description? Whoopie fucking do…. they showed up for work….. Yeah!!!!!!!!

    Now…. maybe if either one of them learned how to actually play they might be worth 20% of what they are being paid.

  51. The Knicks have a couple of interesting young players, but they don’t even have a legitimate NBA starter, let alone a franchise caliber player or even an all star. The closest thing to a starter they have is Robinson, but he can’t stay on the court and is very green. He’s probably 2-3 years away from being a legitimate starting NBA center that understands both sides of the game and his role. It’s shocking how far away they are from being a good team given all the lottery picks and free agent opportunities they’ve had over the last few years.

    The Porzingis trade was a devastating blow that set them back years. I know it was a gamble on free agency, but they got raped on that one. They had to get back at least 1 legitimate player in that deal, but they got back nothing. Dallas even got Hardaway healthy again, turned his career around, and found a useful role for him. It’s hard to be a fan with this much ineptitude from the owner on down.

  52. bless you bob…i am a young fella by golly…

    take away their on court performance (which at times wasn’t too terrible) and they both did everything right…who knows, maybe playing in a more stable environment and coherent system will help them both…i like their character…

  53. “bless you bob…i am a young fella by golly…

    take away their on court performance (which at times wasn’t too terrible) and they both did everything right…who knows, maybe playing in a more stable environment and coherent system will help them both…i like their character…”

    Unfortunately for Knick fans they are primarily paid for their “on the court performance” (and YES it was almost exclusively god awful). They might both be very nice fellows but that and 15 cents will get you on the subway (oh wait….)

  54. I can’t help it but I have to ask JOWELS if he has moved himself and the missus and their bank account to CHAZ?

    Do you feel better living under the hegemony of Raz Simone the Benevolent? loooooooool Seattle.

  55. Oh Bob, you write almost normal if caustic posts for a bit and I start to think there we go, and then you flip over to your Russian bot job. Here’s what’s happening in Seattle:
    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/welcome-to-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone-where-seattle-protesters-gather-without-police/
    I know because I live here. The city has become peaceful now, because the police aren’t escalating things anymore. The fire chief is walking around having conversations, police are still answering 911 calls. There’s real dialog now about something really important. Your mockery just sounds hollow, pitiful, and willfully ignorant. Do us all a favor and crawl back into your bunker. Or under your rock.

  56. raven, are you sure you’re not part of that radical antipasta group ruining this country…

    I don’t care what you say – it may be a little loaded in sugar, but- there is absolutely nothing wrong with the pasta in this country…

  57. Funny how several highly respected generals/joint chiefs have all had the temerity to publicly rebuke Trump. Political hacks, I guess…real Greek chorus types. Or maybe just not the big fan of Jackboot marches that bob is…

    And yeah, Seattle is the problem. Solution? Have a political rally on Juneteenth at the site of one of the most notorious mass-lynchings in our country’s history. I’m wondering whether some of those “very fine people” who marched carrying torches and chanting “Jews will not replace us!” while defending a statue of a seditious defender of slavery in the heart a prestigious public university will make the trip. At least those fine people were peaceful, not like those thugs in Seattle. Well, except maybe for the one who plowed his car into a crowd.

  58. geo:
    raven, are you sure you’re not part of that radical antipasta group ruining this country…

    Hey, that’s ant paste!
    -Bud Abbott

  59. Hopped into a conference call today and my Fox News-loving boss was asking my Capitol Hill-resident coworker about it. “It looks like a farmer’s market.”

    Likewise, my best friend lives on Harvard Ave. with his wife and an infant. You know what was the worst part of the whole thing? Having to seal his windows to keep the flashbangs and tear gas from harming his child.

    Bob, I had an epiphany about you, and it’s that I have nothing but pity for you. You fill your head with some of the worst vile available on cable, and suckle at the teet of rags like National Review. You champion garbage like Tucker Carlson, and dismiss the most competent critics like Colin Powell and Rex Tillerson for no feasible reason. It all points to deep programming to which you have no choice but to be oblivious to. Years of simmering hate brought out of the shadows by the English-speaking equivalent of Jair Bolsonaro, no more than a con-man with the world’s most efficient propaganda machines behind him, pumped full of Koch and Mercer and De Vos blood money, ignorant of his own illiteracy, driven by nothing but narcissistic rage and impotent social-media anger. I have nothing but pity for you for being in his thrall. It’s sad to see anyone with half a break waste his mind on a leader this functionally useless and morally bankrupt, but here you are.

  60. “Oh Bob, you write almost normal if caustic posts for a bit and I start to think there we go, and then you flip over to your Russian bot job. Here’s what’s happening in Seattle:
    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/welcome-to-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone-where-seattle-protesters-gather-without-police/
    I know because I live here. The city has become peaceful now, because the police aren’t escalating things anymore. The fire chief is walking around having conversations, police are still answering 911 calls. There’s real dialog now about something really important. Your mockery just sounds hollow, pitiful, and willfully ignorant. Do us all a favor and crawl back into your bunker. Or under your rock.”

    Have you moved into CHAZ as of yet then?

    I prefer Mr. Simone’s own words to the news reports in the Seattle Times:

    “We are the police of this community now….. we are the leaders of this community now…”

    https://youtu.be/GOhyAo5sQD8?t=15

    Sorry I’m not in favor of self appointed “police” and self appointed leaders of the community. That’s why we have elections and don’t have self appointed Committees of General Defense or Committees of Public Safety

  61. bobneptune: That’s why we have elections and don’t have self appointed Committees of General Defense or Committees of Public Safety

    Of course. Those duly elected folks have really done a bang-up job over the years. Like the ones who passed all the Jim Crow laws. Yup, that’s why we have elections.

  62. “…..Colin Powell and Rex Tillerson…..”

    Pretty funny how the guy who lied right through his teeth bogusing up phony WMD photos and vouching for them in front of the UN and starting a giant shit show in the Middleast and the CEO of EXXON are now your paragons of virtue and heros now ….huh…… LOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL

    Did you move to Utopia yet? Give my best regards to Comrade Simone for me please.

  63. jeez…i stepped away for a few days because i couldn’t read bob’s drivel and just now was like..hmm…let me check in and boom…still spewing like a busted sewer main in midtown…like ol’ faithful…see ya…

  64. “Of course. Those duly elected folks have really done a bang-up job over the years. Like the ones who passed all the Jim Crow laws. Yup, that’s why we have elections.”

    If you want to go all history on me you realize it was the democrat party that passed all those Jim Crow laws and democrats like Al Gore’s daddy that filibustered the Civil Right’s legislation in the Senate in the 60’s right?

    History isn’t kind to the democrat party as far as civil rights is concerned….. I’m just sayin…….

  65. Who cares what party they were from? There were the alt-right of their day, regardless of party.

    But what’s the use? Your dumb arch-conservative ass must be sure that Lincoln the Republican is smiling down on Trump the Republican.

  66. For reactionaries, however, the horror of the situation isn’t the possibility that protests might turn violent. It’s the fact that the protests are happening at all.

    And that’s why people like Trump and Tom Cotton have been so eager to send in the military. They aren’t concerned about keeping the peace; if that mattered to them, *they would have reacted harshly to the spectacle of armed right-wingers threatening Michigan’s State Legislature.* Instead, Trump tweeted his support.

    Starred highlight mine.

  67. “jeez…i stepped away for a few days because i couldn’t read bob’s drivel and just now was like..hmm…let me check in and boom…still spewing like a busted sewer main in midtown…like ol’ faithful…see ya…”

    What on earth are you talking about? I merely asked my old pal Jowels how he was enjoying the hegemony of comrade Simone and had he moved into his protectorate yet?

    You guys have absolutely no sense of humor. Don’t you think it is humorous 6-8 square blocks of a major US city can declare independence and set up their own Committee of Public Safety with a guy self appointing himself lord of all he sees.

    No one sees the irony? Wow…..welcome to what you wished for.

  68. The mayor, Jenny Durkan, said it was the people’s right to challenge authority and their government.

    “It’s not terrorism. It’s patriotism,” she said, adding, “We do not need anyone, including the president, to try to sow further divide, further mistrust and misinformation.”

    She’s talking to you, Bob. So shut up and let the rest of us enjoy our evening.

  69. “And that’s why people like Trump and Tom Cotton have been so eager to send in the military. They aren’t concerned about keeping the peace; if that mattered to them, *they would have reacted harshly to the spectacle of armed right-wingers threatening Michigan’s State Legislature.* Instead, Trump tweeted his support.”

    The difference between the “armed right wingers” and your friends is while they were constitutionally expressing their grievances they didn’t light the state house on fire, break into thousands of stores, burn down people’s businesses or shoot people willy nilly.

    Just a tiny, tiny bit of difference, No?

  70. “She’s talking to you, Bob. So shut up and let the rest of us enjoy our evening.”

    Sorry, I’m not in a 2020 university classroom and enjoy your woke mayor.

    I honestly wish all the police in America would pull a John Galt for 2 weeks and then we’d see how much you really hate them.

  71. I lived in Capitol Hill for a year back in the 90’s, at Bellevue and Denny, just a few minutes walk from what is now known as CHAZ. I’ve been back countless times over the years, played at Neumo’s more times than I can count.

    Capitol Hill is a full-on hipster neighborhood, it’s all record stores, overpriced coffee shops, bookstores, weed shops, tattoo parlors, and all sorts of bougie hipster shit. It’s pretty much the least scary place you can imagine. It has a long history as a gay/lesbian neighborhood. I’d move there happily. It’s my kind of place. I’m much more scared of towns where the pinnacle of culture is the Applebee’s off the freeway exit.

    The idea that the Geriatric Propaganda Network has made it out to be some sort of terrifying hellhole and that people like bob here are duly terrified is, of course, hilarious. Tucker said it’s scary, bob! Always, always listen to Tucker. He’ll tell you what you want to hear. He still has a few sponsors left I think. Those catheters ain’t gonna sell themselves.

  72. If you want to go all history on me you realize it was the democrat party that passed all those Jim Crow laws

    I love when conservatives pretend that the re-alignment of the parties and the Southern Strategy never happened. Hurr durr Lincoln was a Republican hurr durr.

    Come on, bob. You’re better than that. That’s some D minus bob right there.

  73. He just couldn’t do it. He’s like my 11-year-old son, with last-word-itis. So okay…

    You’re right Bob. I do hate the police, even the ones in my family. You win, because you’re always right. Now let’s brush your teeth because it’s time for bed. Sleep tight, Bob.

  74. bobneptune: Just a tiny, tiny bit of difference, No?

    Yeah, I’d say that there’s a tiny bit of difference between protesting a stay-at-home order to potentially save thousands of lives and protesting the latest gruesome lynching of unarmed black man by a white police officer right after an unarmed black man was lynched by vigilantes for the crime of jogging. Just a tiny bit.

  75. pretty funny how the guy who lied right through his teeth bogusing up phony WMD photos and vouching for them in front of the UN and starting a giant shit show in the Middleast and the CEO of EXXON are now your paragons of virtue and heros now

    I don’t know where you got the idea that I think Tillerson (or Powell) is a paragon of virtue. I have, however, read extensively on Tillerson, and from a big-business conservative’s view, I don’t know of any figure from American industry better suited for the nation’s top foreign policy job than him. Being the CEO of Exxon necessarily means being a diplomat to some of the world’s roughest nations, like Chad, Nigeria, Iraq and Venezuela, and managing a huge team of experts, installed in any country that does oil and gas business, designed to manage the corporation’s enormous mass of interests.

    Tillerson was exactly the kind of person who knows how to leverage American economic and military power against foreign governments and businesses alike. The fact that he’s not a person that I admire or whose morals I respect is wholly irrelevant to his appeal to a corporatist’s desired State Department strategy. That you dismiss his assessment of Trump based on a conjectured ex-employee’s “sour grapes” theory tells me a lot about your sobriety on this matter, or any regarding the buffoon in the White House.

  76. Hey bob, what do you think of Trump’s claim that the Alan Arkin-looking old guy who got his skull cracked by cops in Buffalo is actually a secret Antifa member? Think that’s legit? Or did you find that a little embarrassing that the President of the United States tweeted something that patently ridiculous?

  77. Or did you find that a little embarrassing that the President of the United States tweeted something that patently ridiculous?

    (1) That didn’t happen.
    (2) And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
    (3) And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
    (4) And if it is, it wasn’t my fault.
    (5) And if it was, I didn’t mean it.
    (6) And if I did, you deserved it.

    My guess as to his answer.

  78. (1) That didn’t happen.
    (2) And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
    (3) And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
    (4) And if it is, it wasn’t my fault.
    (5) And if it was, I didn’t mean it.
    (6) And if I did, you deserved it.

    (7) Pound the table

  79. i can’t remember if it was during world war 1 or world war 2, maybe both – but, they named a lot of the southern military bases after confederate officers in order to help with recruiting…

    no time like the present to fix the mistakes of the past, heard it will cost a whole lot of money (tens of millions?) to rename the bases …when we studied the civil war i never got the impression the confederates were enemies of the state – my perception at the time was there was almost a nobility in their cause…a bunch of the officers fighting for the south went to school upstate…

    no doubt many joined due to a community commitment to a call to arms…however – they were enemies of the state, they were traitors, and their cause sucked…

  80. i will say this for fox news – harris faulkner ain’t bad looking…shannon bream has some of the most beautiful eyes i’ve ever seen…

    it’s amazing how many african-american folks they got “representing” on fox news…i know that’s an insensitive statement – the color of your skin doesn’t always determine your politics, your beliefs…nor should it…

    i remember someone i worked with years back…black dude that constantly demeaned black people…it was some weird shit i had never encountered before…his politics was exactly fox type tripe…he worked events concert security on the weekends…on monday he would show up all pumped about jacking up some fools at the concert…

    it used to really fuck me up to sit there and talk with him…i could see a regular looking black guy (he did have some of the nappiest, i ain’t never brushing my hair, type hair though), but, listen to this desert meth head biker dude…it was interesting…he didn’t seem like a bad guy…just had some “odd”/bob type views…

    ironically, after he left the company (he rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way), found out that he was indeed an adopted child who was in fact raised by some white biker people…nothing against white biker folks…i’m not sure if they lived in the desert, but, moreno valley really doesn’t have all that many trees…

    but yeah, they did a really good job of imprinting their views on the child they raised…

  81. the god kids are african-american…my people come from the uk and central america, i don’t really feel an attachment to any ethnic ties…i know folks see me as being white…god daughter saw race discrimination every where as a result of how things went for her at school, turns out – some of that may have been true in her experience, mostly she just needed to focus better on her education…we discussed race a lot…i remember one time we were over mom’s at the kitchen table – i told her don’t worry so much about being black in our society, worry more about being a woman…

    progress has been made, but, that alone can make life a tough journey…

    her brother, about a decade younger – doesn’t really see race at all…it’s pretty cool…up until now, we’ve never really discussed race…we’ve spoke a little about recent events and the protests…sadly a couple of days later he asked if the police were going to shoot him…

    parenting at times is like navigating a mine field – with a butterfly effect…

  82. “it used to really fuck me up to sit there and talk with him…i could see a regular looking black guy (he did have some of the nappiest, i ain’t never brushing my hair, type hair though), but, listen to this desert meth head biker dude…it was interesting…he didn’t seem like a bad guy…just had some “odd”/bob type views…

    ironically, after he left the company (he rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way), found out that he was indeed an adopted child who was in fact raised by some white biker people…nothing against white biker folks…i’m not sure if they lived in the desert, but, moreno valley really doesn’t have all that many trees…

    but yeah, they did a really good job of imprinting their views on the child they raised…”

    Just to show you how right you are…. my oldest son went to the most liberal college in America (Middlebury College) which his mom and I paid for and is currently a Neurosurgery resident at the U of Mississippi

    Imagine a troglodyte like me financing 4 years at Middlebury… whoda thunk it…….

  83. Man, forget about a place for a while and you come back to find everybody endorsing white folks commandeering Central Park, telling the cops to screw off, and then deciding who can and who cannot enter.

    Wait. Are you telling me the only people who can do that are ones you approve of? Yeah, that kind of double-standard never ends in blood and tears. By the way, how many people wound up getting sexually assaulted at the Occupy Wall Street protests?

    Mike

  84. Just to point out some history, the south is republican now because of democratic support for integration and for the great society under Lyndon Johnson. He was told he would lose the south if he passed those things, he agreed it would happen but he did it anyway. So the Democratic Party has changed a lot over the years.

  85. “Democratic Party has changed a lot over the years.”

    As has the entire country…. most of you folks just refuse to recognize that. Without the tireless work of Sen. Everitt Dirksen and the liberal republicans the 1964 Civil Rights act never passes cloture in the Senate. That’s history.

    I mean besides the internment of Japanese during WWII your idol FDR’s first Supreme Court appointment was a Klansman Hugo Black.

    Robert Byrd another “reformed Klansman” was Senate Majority leader as recently as 1989.

  86. I appreciate that we can always rely on Mike Bunge to make Bob look like a liberal by comparison.

    Brian

  87. As has the entire country…. most of you folks just refuse to recognize that. Without the tireless work of Sen. Everitt Dirksen and the liberal republicans the 1964 Civil Rights act never passes cloture in the Senate. That’s history.

    Nobody on the planet denies this. It’s taught in every US History course from elementary school all the way up to the most crunchy granola universities. Only you and Dinesh D’Souza think it’s, like, the Democratic Party’s deep dark secret or whatever.

    It’s also a fact that, as KnickFanInNJ (not exactly a member of the Greek Chorus™) said, the racist Southern Democrats left the Democratic party and became Republicans as a result of the Democrats’ embrace of civil rights. This process started in 1948 when Truman embraced civil rights as part of the party platform (see Thurmond’s third-party dixiecrat bid) and just about finished with the passage of the Civil Rights Act (Nixon cleaned up who remained with the Southern Strategy).

    Everyone knows this. There is nothing secret or scandalous about it. Every time a conservative points to it as some kind of own they’re just revealing they think everyone is as ignorant of history as themselves.

    Anyway bob, I noticed you dodged a few questions. Was the 75 year old man who tragically is reported to have suffered a brain injury a card carrying ANTIFA agitator?

  88. Again, the arguments are liberal vs. conservative, not Democrat vs. Republican. Distorting the argument to suit your own narrative is intellectual dishonesty at its worst. Please stop, you’re making yourself look incredibly dumb.

  89. I guess when your entire movement’s standard bearer is as obviously vapid, incompetent, and malevolent as Donald Trump you really don’t have much other than “hurr durr there were a lot of racist Democrats in the 60s.” So I can’t blame bob for playing the hits.

  90. I’m fine with pointing out cases where liberals have taken controversial stands, there are plenty of them. But let’s be honest about what’s being argued here.

  91. “I guess when your entire movement’s standard bearer is as obviously vapid, incompetent, and malevolent as Donald Trump you really don’t have much other than “hurr durr there were a lot of racist Democrats in the 60s.” So I can’t blame bob for playing the hits.”

    As always, you (singular and plural) miss the larger point.

    I’ve always thought Trump was a douche of the highest order. However, that doesn’t mean his positions against the last 30 years of Clinton/Bush/Obama economic policies pertaining to trade and his positions on Europe paying more for their collective defense and his positions on staying the fuck out of the Middle East shit show and other places and his positions on energy were and still are far superior those of Ms Clinton and her friends.

    I also don’t think this country is in need of great fundamental change as many of you do.

    And the hypocrisy on “racism” is lol tastic.

    Did Obama when he ran the executive and had a lock on both chambers of congress legislatively address these “obvious” problems with the police and criminal justice? C’mon….

    And weren’t there 11 confederate statues in the Capital when Ms. Pelosi was Speaker in 2008. How come she wasn’t apoplectic then? Any ideas? Probably not eh…..

    Rank f…ing hypocrisy

  92. I wonder what the Hispanic and Asian communities think of what’s going on.

    At the rate people come to the US, most families in the US now (including white) weren’t even in this country when a lot of the history people are arguing about occurred. That’s especially true of Asians and Hispanics.

    Hispanics and Asians are coming here in droves now for the same reasons all the groups before them came. They want an opportunity to get an education, a good job, and a better life for their families. Some of the current wave of immigrants are facing the same resistance every group before them faced. However, every group before them slowly worked their way up the ladder and contributed. So the fears about job loss, lack of education, crime, poverty, a different culture, a different religion, etc.. vanished and the group was slowly assimilated.

    The difference this time is that at least some of the current wave must be thinking they picked the wrong country. They picked a country that has obviously gone bat shit crazy because of a single election.

  93. And to the obviously most important issue of the day whether the old who thought he was slick going nose to nose with a line of police was a member of Antifa probably not but I don’t know a single thing about the guy.

    I am far more concerned with the CCP and their cold calculated decision (besides not being forthright about the Corona virus in timely fashion) where they clearly understood the magnitude of the problem quite early.

    They shut down all car, bus, train and airplane travel domestically but somehow “forgot” to shut down international travel. Hmmmmmm…….. I wonder why that was, eh?

    Those pricks should rot in hell as they have the blood of 500,000 on their hands.

  94. “Bob is not going to kick owning the libs to the curb. Big part of what he does around here.”

    As Sargent Joe Friday used to say, “Just the facts ma’am!”

  95. “I’ve always thought Trump was a douche of the highest order. However, that doesn’t mean his positions against the last 30 years of Clinton/Bush/Obama economic policies pertaining to trade and his positions on Europe paying more for their collective defense and his positions on staying the fuck out of the Middle East shit show and other places and his positions on energy were and still are far superior those of Ms Clinton and her friends.”

    You were doing great until the “energy” issue.

    The goal of becoming energy independent or better yet an energy exporter was obviously correct. Aside from the economic benefit, it also helps with the goal of less foreign entanglement in the middle east. But it should have been a two pronged approach that included fossil fuels in the short term while investing in clean energy for the long term. That way you get the economic and political benefits now, but fossil fuels can slowly go away over the next 10 years and beyond. He focused too much on the short term.

  96. It’s been a moment of clarity for me seeing how much this moment is about not getting trolled. It’s so much bigger than Trump. It’s actually revealing how small he is and how powerless.

  97. People like Bob are so afraid of the left that they know more about their strawman version of lefty than the do their own positions. As long as Tucker Carlson says the left wants it, Bob will fight against it

  98. I mean besides the internment of Japanese during WWII your idol FDR’s first Supreme Court appointment was a Klansman Hugo Black.

    Robert Byrd another “reformed Klansman” was Senate Majority leader as recently as 1989.

    What the F**k Bob, why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn’t make any comment about Robert Byrd or FDR. Nor does your post actually respond to anything I said. I want an apology from you. I understand why some people want you banned.

  99. So bob won’t rule out the idea that the Alan Arkin-looking dude in Buffalo is a member of Antifa. He can’t say “yeah that was a pretty fucking ridiculously dumb thing that Trump said.”

    Just for the record.

  100. Haha, this is a good thread. I am much smarter having read all the Whatabouts.

  101. Yeah, you guys are terrible about feeding the trolls…

    I will divert with this bold trade concept:

    San Antonio desperately needs some new star power. Assuming they don’t move up in the lottery, I’d propose trading RJ for their #11, Trey Lyles, filler, and their 2023 first, with the plan of drafting Hayes and Vassell at 6 and 11, respectively (or LaMelo/Haliburton, who I’m less high on, and Nesmith).

    I guess if you’re high on RJ’s future, you’ll scoff at this proposal, but I just think there are too many holes in his game for him to ever be more than just a decent player. I’d rather roll with a smart, young backcourt and tank for Cunningham in 2021.

    Of course, the team would never do this, but it makes more sense to me.

  102. ess-dog:
    Yeah, you guys are terrible about feeding the trolls…

    I will divert with this bold trade concept:

    San Antonio desperately needs some new star power. Assuming they don’t move up in the lottery, I’d propose trading RJ for their #11, Trey Lyles, filler, and their 2023 first, with the plan of drafting Hayes and Vassell at 6 and 11, respectively (or LaMelo/Haliburton, who I’m less high on, and Nesmith).

    I guess if you’re high on RJ’s future, you’ll scoff at this proposal, but I just think there are too many holes in his game for him to ever be more than just a decent player. I’d rather roll with a smart, young backcourt and tank for Cunningham in 2021.

    Of course, the team would never do this, but it makes more sense to me.

    I’m all for trading RJ immediately and grabbing an asset. Don’t know if this is the draft you want, but yeah I’d still do it.

    Again, nothing about RJ ever seemed all that promising to me. If anything he still underperformed my expectations with poor rebounding & fast numbers.

  103. I’m ok with the idea of trading RJ for value, but I don’t see the appeal of Lyles. His stats look like Randle’s but with less scoring and a bit better three point shooting. RJ plays a position that is much harder to fill than Lyles does. So you are trading away a type of player that’s hard to get for a player at a position that’s easier to fill and who duplicates what we already have. I wasn’t thrilled with RJ’s performance last year but he should get better given his age. So I say no to the trade.

  104. The things that Barrett can do, players typically don’t get better at.

    The thing that Barrett can’t do, players often do get better at.

    If Barrett learns to shoot, which is very possible, he’ll be a star. If he never learns to shoot, then he will not be a good player. I think it’s too soon to give up on him for anything but an overwhelming offer.

  105. Brian Cronin:
    The things that Barrett can do, players typically don’t get better at.

    The thing that Barrett can’t do, players often do get better at.

    If Barrett learns to shoot, which is very possible, he’ll be a star. If he never learns to shoot, then he will not be a good player. I think it’s too soon to give up on him for anything but an overwhelming offer.

    Yeah, I agree. The fact that he played pretty good defense can’t be ignored either.

    His efficiency is so bad that he may never make it to “good player.” But the rest of his game is NBA quality. Too soon to give up on him in my opinion.

  106. I don’t think it’s just shooting that’s holding him back.

    He doesn’t have a lot of above-the-rim athleticism (he’s no Dwyane Wade or DeRozan). Yes, he draws fouls well but also gets his shot blocked a lot. That could change some IF he becomes less left-hand dominant AND learns to shoot well from outside, but those things aren’t sure fixes. Also, the playmaking he showed at Duke mostly disappeared at a higher level. His defense wasn’t terrible, but that’s not enough promise IMO.

    But if his value is super-high around the league, sure, wait for an overwhelming offer instead. But this draft doesn’t hold that offer, and RJ’s value will only go down the older he gets if he’s not producing (i.e. Dennis Smith Jr., Kevin Knox…)

  107. RJ is so terrible at FTs I don’t think it projects well for him improving much in the future. Supposedly he’s good at finishing, but he’s really not been that good despite his NBA ready body.

    If he can’t finish and put up his college 30%+ usage, I don’t think he’s really a viable passer either. His assists come from his ball-dominant playstyle, but he often looks lost on offense and can’t make live reads. If the play isn’t set he can’t make anything happen.

    If I had to guess, DSJr will have a better year than RJ next season.

  108. @MikeVorkunov
    The Knicks are adding to their front office and hiring Pelicans scout Alex Kline to a larger scouting role in their organization, working under new assistant-GM Walt Perrin, league sources tell The Athletic.

  109. I agree that if RJ shoots better, he will be a more valuable player.

    I would not trade him for any rookie-contract player outside of the obvious ones (Ja, Zion, Doncic). Almost all rookies his age are terrible at scoring. Durant was a terrible scorer. LeBron wasn’t anything to write home about.

    If he fails to improve by the end of year 3? We have an issue, a la Knox and Ntilikina. But right now, he’s as untouchable as Mitch. You’ll never get #3 pick value back for him right now, but there’s really nowhere to go but up.

  110. It doesn’t seem terribly likely that RJ will shoot drastically better, but it’s also not completely out of the question. He’s not really a blue chip prospect. But he is at least a decent prospect, unlike the Knox/Ntilikina/DSJ group.

  111. If you told me I’d have to offer an extension to Barrett today or have him a guaranteed UFA in 3 years, I’d pass. But since he’s under contract and this team has nothing good except for the Robinson contract and a boatload of future picks, I say just let the bet ride. His #3 rookie scale isn’t great with a soon-to-be contracted cap, but I doubt the Knicks would use it on anything better, to be honest.

  112. He had a much worse age 19 season that Lebron, KD, and Devin Booker… and even CJ Miles.

    I’m not saying he won’t at least become an average NBA player, but is that worth paying #3-pick money for?

    It’s just a big hole for him to climb out of.

    Meanwhile, there are other kids at various positions in this draft with better advanced stats than RJ’s, and there will surely be others in future drafts.

  113. Don’t get me wrong, I was really upset at just how poorly Barrett shot. It was very disappointing and aggravating to see him be such a bad shooter. Does that put a damper on what I expect from the guy? Sure, but he did well at non-shooting stuff and he clearly has an NBA body, so I still see him as a real prospect. Note that he was quite good in the NCAA. This isn’t like Frank or Knox, who didn’t even play all that well in their respective leagues before being drafted and then played terribly once they got here. Barrett is a legit prospect. Legit prospects, though, still need to learn to shoot. But a lot of them do.

    Look at Fox. I loved Fox coming into the draft, but he shot like shit in his rookie season and now, by getting himself to respectable levels, he’s a good young player, and Barrett can do thing Fox can’t even do. Fox somehow had an ever so slightly worse TS% than Barrett in his rookie season and was at 54% by year two.

  114. A few guys with much worse TS% in their age 19 rookie season than Barrett who ended up being good shooters:

    JR Smith
    Brandon Ingram
    Rashard Lewis
    Lou Williams

  115. I can’t fault any pessimism about RJ based on his shooting stats, but he did some really good things out there for a 19yo rookie put into an outsized role. In general, you want to trade guys at their peak perceived value, so if you think RJ is essentially peaked out in that regard, sure, turn him over. But I personally am not worried at all that he won’t get better. Even with his typical rookie mistakes, I like his IQ out there a lot. For me, rookie year is when you learn what you need to do to get better. Then it becomes a matter of whether you do it or not. Unlike Ntilikina, he’s not a square peg being put into a round hole. Unlike Knox, he’s not physically and emotionally immature.

    And for the record, I’m willing to bet that RJ will have a better NBA career than Killian Hayes.

  116. “Look at Fox. I love Fox.” -Brian Cronin

    You and Bob and Mike Bunge have more in common than you thought!

  117. I would not trade him for any rookie-contract player outside of the obvious ones (Ja, Zion, Doncic).

    is that parenthetical meant to be the whole set or just examples?

  118. Btw, I find Bob to be intolerable, but up until today he wasn’t really a troll. Someone would invoke Trump’s name and he’d come raining in with his garbage defenses of the guy, but it always sprang from the Greek Chorus. But on this thread he is a 100% troll, asking Jowles, who doesn’t even live in Seattle, if he “has moved himself and the missus and their bank account to CHAZ? Do you feel better living under the hegemony of Raz Simone the Benevolent? loooooooool Seattle.” This unsolicited hand grenade had no purpose but to devolve the thread into an unnecessary war of words. It wasn’t the least bit basketball related, Knicks related, or even fact related. He should be ashamed, and treated like the troll that he is.

  119. I can agree that RJ was used terribly by Fiz and Miller, although the latter was desperate to win games.

    If RJ isn’t used as the primary distributor on offense (much in the way Luka is), his value is drastically reduced. So maybe the next coach can at least solve this issue, but it’s also why I don’t think they’re going to draft a ball-dominant point guard.

  120. RJ wasn’t a bad prospect, but I never viewed him as a good prospect. Last year reinforced that for me.

    He very well may blossom and keeping him isn’t the worst decision. But I’d just as soon trade him if you can capitalize on his draft value. I don’t know who would offer enough in a trade, or even have a package in mind, to make it worth trading RJ, but I do think his perceived value far outweighs his actual value.

    I don’t see him ever being efficient enough to be the primary scorer, but that’s what his game demands. I project him as a less efficient DeMar DeRozan. Scores a lot, gets boards & assists, but I do not want him.

  121. RJ needs to be surrounded by shooters to maximize his strengths. It was said that his shooting numbers would improve in the NBA because he’d be playing with more space and better shooters than he did at Duke but the opposite happened, he played for an NBA team that had arguably the worst spacing and shooting in the entire league.

  122. is that parenthetical meant to be the whole set or just examples?

    Examples. Some others would be Jaren Jackson, Clarke, Michael Porter, Trae, SGA. Among the older guys who will be owed big extension money: Adebayo, Tatum, Mitchell, Jarrett Allen, Fox…

    The list is pretty long, but having three years left on the contract is a plus.

  123. RJ needs to be surrounded by shooters to maximize his strengths.

    To be fair, reports have stated that they’re “looking for a shooting big” in free agency and a “point guard who can shoot” in the draft, surely to place around RJ.

  124. I don’t think RJ/DeRozan is a great comparison, it seems like more of a floor for RJ. DeRozan really can’t shoot 3’s (although he’s an excellent FT shooter, go figure). In 11 years he only had one year where he shot 3’s better (barely) than RJ did as a rookie, and never averaged as many attempts per 36 as RJ. If DeRozan could shoot 3’s he’d be a deserving max player. RJ seems to be more likely to be a better-than-decent defensive player (not DeRozan) and a leader (DeRozan doesn’t really have that gene.)

  125. I’m not saying he won’t at least become an average NBA player, but is that worth paying #3-pick money for?

    I think so, honestly. It obviously depends on what’s offered for him. If someone offered me the #3 pick in this draft for him, I’d take it in a heartbeat. The salary slot isn’t very important to the Knicks right now. Clearing space for a max player isn’t a priority, and they’ll have plenty of cap space to sign a trade-deadline bait player or two.

  126. (when I say a deserving “max” player, I mean at the low end of the max scale…high 20’s-low 30’s…)

  127. It remains very funny and weird to me that we talk about Frank Ntilikina more than RJ Barrett.

    I mostly agree with BC. The optimistic take is he’s pretty good at things that tend to be static (rebounding, passing, and defense) and needs to work on things that often improve (shooting/scoring).

    The pessimistic take is his weakness just so happens to be the most important of the four factors, and oh boy, it’s a hell of a weakness.

    Overall, he’s one of the more confounding prospects we’ve had, or that I can think of in the league generally. I can’t blame anyone for being optimistic or pessimistic on him for that reason. I definitely wouldn’t be looking to trade him, but if you can find value for him then go right ahead.

    I should add that to be an effective NBA player, I do think he’ll need to be some level of threat from 3. Otherwise he won’t be a very good off-ball option, and he won’t be good enough to justify being a primary ball handler.

  128. RJ shot .320 from 3PT, which is bad but not hopeless. Same goes for his TS%, it was .479 which is bad but not insanely bad. The FT% is alarming, only 61%, and I’m surprised it was even that high, it seemed like he hardly ever made a free throw.

  129. I should add that to be an effective NBA player, I do think he’ll need to be some level of threat from 3.

    Doncic was only shooting .318 from three this season, but he used it to set up his drives, passes, etc.

    If RJ wants to be the guy with the ball in his hands, he should really model his game after Doncic’s.

  130. It’s still staggering to me how poorly the Knicks built their team around Barrett. The guy’s their highest draft pick in 30 plus years and they play him out of position and surround him with a bunch of non-shooters. It was baffling in how stupid it was.

  131. “Well, Barrett best used as a point forward surrounded by shooters…hmmm….let’s play him at shooting guard and have the best shooter on the court be Julius fuckin’ Randle.”

  132. That should be the first question asked any Knick coach. “So, what position do you see Barrett at next season?”

  133. JK47:
    RJ shot .320 from 3PT, which is bad but not hopeless. Same goes for his TS%, it was .479 which is bad but not insanely bad. The FT% is alarming, only 61%, and I’m surprised it was even that high, it seemed like he hardly ever made a free throw.

    HUH?!?!?!?!

    Out of 196 qualifying players in 2020 in TS%, RJ ranked 192nd! He was followed by Kevin Knox and Elfrid Payton LOL. The only players worse were Jarrett Culver and Jordan Poole. You wonder why this team sucked?

    Basketball Reference

  134. HUH?!?!?!?!

    Out of 196 qualifying players in 2020 in TS%, RJ ranked 192nd! He was followed by Kevin Knox and Elfrid Payton LOL. The only players worse were Jarrett Culver and Jordan Poole. You wonder why this team sucked?

    Context was pretty obviously “for a teenage rookie wing who shot a lot”

  135. The easiest place to slot in shooters are at the wing positions, but RJ takes up one of those slots. So partially RJ creates the problem for himself, unless he starts playing PG or PF.

    You just don’t find shooters at PF, PG or C as easily as SF or SG.

  136. It’s not hopeless because he’s a 19-year-old rookie, GoNY. The sophomore season is going to tell us a lot about his “upside.” Keep in mind that I’m the guy who advocated to trade down to a package of #8 + #17 + #35. The Knicks picked him and he’s got two years before the Knicks need to make any real decision at all.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/e8Su5 This list of player (>1000 MP teenagers since 2000-11) doesn’t look great for him, but it’s not totally damning. The guys who performed worse via OBPM are almost all scrubs — Ingram is the only one worth a damn, and it took him three full years before he proved himself anywhere close to worthy of being a #2 overall pick.

    He is an asset under cost control for three more years. Unless there’s a real opportunity to get #3 overall pick value back for him (the #3 and #16 overall picks from MIN for a package of Barrett and the LAC 1RP, let’s say), there’s no point in selling low. It’s not like he’s going to keep the Knicks from being a playoff contender next year. If you replace him without getting 2020 draft picks in return, you’re just punting. It makes no sense to do that.

  137. The easiest place to slot in shooters are at the wing positions, but RJ takes up one of those slots. So partially RJ creates the problem for himself, unless he starts playing PG or PF.

    I could see him actually perhaps playing a little 4. But the Knicks then signed 89 4s to make sure that could never happen.

  138. t’s not hopeless because he’s a 19-year-old rookie,

    I know. I like Barrett … and Knox and Elfrid. I just wish they could shoot. And Barrett, whose game is to get to the line, shouldn’t be a 60% FT shooter.

    I just have a personality flaw that makes it impossible for me to not call out a statement so egregiously wrong.

    Oh, and another tidbit. Look who’s #1 in that TS% ranking. Mitch!

  139. “A few guys with much worse TS% in their age 19 rookie season than Barrett who ended up being good shooters:

    JR Smith
    Brandon Ingram
    Rashard Lewis
    Lou Williams”

    Fair enough…. lets look a little closer….

    I’m assuming since you included Rashard Lewis (1998 draft) you did an extensive search and these were the best you could find. Fine!

    Saying JR Smith ended up being a good shooter tortures reason. For his career he is below league average in FT%, TS%, and FG%

    3 of the four you sited came straight out of HS into the pros without the benefit of a year of major college BB at Duke with the best coaching and exposure to the big time like Ingram and Barrett had the benefit of.

    Lewis and williams were second round picks, not the 3rd player taken in the draft. They both played a grand total of 145 NBA minutes as rookies so LOL sample size to measure from.

    Ingram is the only good (optimistic) comp. And he was clearly well below average fully for 3 years until he exploded this season. His FT shooting exploded from 67.5% to 85.8% this season and his 3 ball % exploded from 33.0% to 38.7% on quadruple the volume.

    Did he figure out a flaw in his stroke? Will he regress to his 3 previous years like Julius Randle whose 3 ball shooting jumped 12% his last year at NO on quadruple the attempts the previous year and then regressed right back to the mean?

    So….. In the past 22 NBA seasons you found one good comp for a horrid young shooter becoming an all star…. that doesn’t make me all tingly inside.

  140. But then the whole point is that it’s only within the last decade that 19 year olds have come in and played big minutes (that was the annoying thing last season, where every other game, Knox was doing something that only Lebron had done, but it was only because so few teenagers had the opportunity to it, it wasn’t like Knox was similar to Lebron), so there’s not a whole lot of sample size to compare to Barrett to begin with.

    What we do know is there are lots of 19 year olds who shot like shit and then later learned to score. Legendary players like Lebron and Durant. Lebron was a sub 50% TS% in his rookie season! In other words, “He shot like shit in his age 19 season” doesn’t mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

    There are not many 19 year olds who can do the other things Barrett can do, which is why he was the #3 pick. Those things have real meaning. “He shot like shit in his rookie season” does not.

    Will he shoot like shit in his age 20 season? I have no idea. That’s the crazy thing about the NBA. No one really knows which guy is the guy who will learn to shoot and which is the guy who won’t. We know plenty of guys do and we know plenty of guys don’t. Which is precisely why “He shot like shit in his age 19 season” has so little meaning.

    What he does in his age 20 season will tell us a lot more (and heck, even there, as noted, Ingram eventually figured it out, as well, but I’ll concede that if you don’t figure it out after two seasons, your odds go way lower).

    Barrett’s not Knox, he’s not useless if he’s not scoring efficiently. That’s why he’s not worth giving up on so early. Not unless some team wants to pay a premium for him.

    Now, if he sucks next year, then sure, fuck him. But I’d gladly take that risk over trading him for some mediocre future assets.

  141. i can’t find his month by month stats, but, didn’t RJ start off around 40% from the line for the first couple of months, and then hit around 70% or so from january on (except for the time when he was playing injured – i remember the ankle thing, but, didn’t he have an issue with his shoulder for awhile also?)…

  142. Barrett’s not Knox, he’s not useless if he’s not scoring efficiently.

    Which is a major indictment of Knox, who showed virtually no improvement from his rookie season. Those two cats should be spending the summer shooting until their arms are ready to drop off.

  143. Which is a major indictment of Knox, who showed virtually no improvement from his rookie season. Those two cats should be spending the summer shooting until their arms are ready to drop off.

    Yep. Could Knox shock us and turn out to be a diamond in the rough? Possibly, but unlikely. So I’ve pretty much written him off.

    Again, though, Barrett was actually quite good in college, unlike Knox. Another big difference between our expectations of these players.

  144. Off the top of my head, Dirk Nowitzki, Jeff Teague and Joe Johnson all had TS% similar to RJ’s as rookies. I’m sure there are other good players who had around a .480 TS% as a rookie but I’m too lazy to search.

  145. In 2020, Barrett went 82-120 (68%), which was improved over 2019 but still not great. But flirting with 70% is a lot better than below 60%, if you want to take the optimistic view.

    As with most teenage rookies, you find out what works and what doesn’t work in your first year. Then it becomes about how much you adapt. Frank and Knox haven’t adapted much. Maybe RJ will be different.

  146. Off the top of my head, Dirk Nowitzki, Jeff Teague and Joe Johnson all had TS% similar to RJ’s as rookies. I’m sure there are other good players who had around a .480 TS% as a rookie but I’m too lazy to search.

    Yeah, but in 1999, Nowitzki’s rookie year, the league average TS% was .511. This year it’s .564. According to TS+, Barrett was at a 85 and Nowitzki was at a 96. Johnson scored 92 and Teague was the worst of the bunch at 84 despite being 21 during his rookie year.

    Knox might be among the GOATs of negative TSAdd. I covered this last year, when he and Ntilikina contributed like negative five wins from their shooting despite taking something like 15% of the Knicks’ total shots, but his TSAdd was -171.3. Horrific!

  147. although i’ve been blessed with a good disposition and often times i feel joy for no good reason – my thoughts though are often negative and critical…

    i want so much to sit here and write something positive about kevin knox, cuz he is a good young man and we drafted him…i’m having a hard time with myself to make a case for his success in the nba…

    i remember he did have a few games with a couple of outstanding blocks in them…he seems to be growing in to his feet a little more and can sometimes make it to the rim off of a screen…he is tall…

  148. “Almost all rookies his age are terrible at scoring. Durant was a terrible scorer. LeBron wasn’t anything to write home about.”

    Durant is a poor comp. Everyone knew Durant could shoot the eyes out of the basket (40.4% from 3 and 81.6% FT% at Texas) but he was sooooo weak he had to get stronger to get his shot off in the NBA. He had an ungodly handle for a 6’10” beanpole. A 9’2″ wingspan. No one was worried he wouldn’t be able to score in the NBA once he got a little stronger. He was so weak at the 2007 combine he couldn’t bench 185 a single time. He did shoot 87.3% FT’s as a rookie.

    LeBron didn’t have the benefit of a full year with Coach K. He still isn’t a good shooter to this day. But once he learned how to harness his ungodly power at the rim his shooting numbers exploded, Barrett doesn’t have near the explosion of James (who does at his size).

    And for the record , I honestly thought you were from Seattle. Just giving you the needle yesterday.

  149. ***Off the top of my head, Dirk Nowitzki, Jeff Teague and Joe Johnson all had TS% similar to RJ’s as rookies. I’m sure there are other good players who had around a .480 TS% as a rookie but I’m too lazy to search.***

    Allan Houston!

    .465 TS% in 79 games as a 22 year old rookie.

    (If he’d been a Knick, and there’d been Knickerblogger, we’d have had an entire year of Greek Chorus damnation for our lottery pick!)

  150. My issue with RJ is that he doesn’t appear to have that much physical projection. He’s not like a Giannis who came into the league looking like Bambi and now looks like a Miura. Zion is the same way I think.

    He also has played a ton of high level basketball. How many more minutes of top tier basketball had he played relative to Mitch?

    It appears to be consensus but I think there is a lot less upside to RJ and little value overall if he can’t learn to shoot.

  151. RJ made 64% of his FTs after October, which is in line with what he did at Duke & HS and not terrible. It’s just that he shot so poorly in October and November his FT% was really awful for a lot of the season.

  152. Yes, KD & Lebron shot poorly as rookie teenagers. But RJ Barrett is not Lebron or KD. He didn’t show nearly the promise as either of those players.

    Mediocre college numbers and awful NBA numbers does not equal phenomenal college/HS play and awful NBA numbers.

  153. Right, but there’s something to be said for a 19yo who can more than hold his own physically. RJ is very tough, and he’s not gonna get weaker. He also has great footwork and very decent ball skills. Knox, otoh, can’t drive without tripping over himself and gets manhandled in the paint.

    The good news for Knox is that he’s still very young , has nice shooting mechanics and a nice physical frame that can get a lot stronger. He made some nice plays as a ball-handler in transition and made some nice interior passes to Mitch. He also had some decent blocks, although his defense was cringe-inducing overall. He needs to learn how to move those size 18’s.

    He just seems like a middle-schooler out there mentally (babyish, not petulant). I’m not all the way out on him yet..not drinking the Cal kool-aid but willing to give him another season to show something.

  154. i don’t actually think RJ’s defense was all that auspicious, even though it was better than feared. he looked so much worse than, say, jaylen brown as a rookie defender. even when i take my magic geo pills and try to get all pumped about future rj shooting 36pct from 3 and 74pct from the line, all i can manage to see is like jalen rose or maybe ron harper without the d.

    who is the worst rookie contract guy (worst including contract considerations) you would trade rj for right now? what about 1yr and rfa rights to huge injury risk jonathan isaac?

  155. Well, Justice Winslow might be the most realistic comp for RJ (interestingly, Winslow wasn’t any good until moving to SF and was even better playing PF).

    Winslow is a better athlete, but I think RJ is the smarter overall player. Still, it’s likely that RJ won’t even come close to league average until his 3rd year, and let’s be honest, he won’t be bringing back the same draft haul then that he would today.

  156. “Allan Houston!

    .465 TS% in 79 games as a 22 year old rookie.

    (If he’d been a Knick, and there’d been Knickerblogger, we’d have had an entire year of Greek Chorus damnation for our lottery pick!)”

    Where’s the O’really owl when you need him.

    RJ barrett has never in HS or College or one year pro shown any proclivity to shoot the basketball with the least little bit of competency other than at the rim.

    Allan Houston on the other hand walked into Tennessee as an 18 yr old and shot 43.2% from 3 on 192 attempts and 80.5% on 150 FT attempts. He could shoot the eyes out of the basket as an embryo.

    Houston at 18 yrs shot 12% better from 3 and 15% better FT than Barrett as college freshmen. Talk about comparing a Hyperion to a Satyr…..

    Houston had difficulty adjusting to the NBA game as a rookie but by year 2 had it figured out as he blossomed into an above average efficiency player with a TS% of .589. But his college career of 42.4% from 3 over 819 attempts and 84.5% FTs on 767 attempts kinda argued he’d have little trouble scoring the ball once he figured the game out on the next level.

    If Barrett’s shooting doesn’t make a miraculous leap he is destined to be precisely what his record says he is……

  157. Still, it’s likely that RJ won’t even come close to league average until his 3rd year

    isn’t that sort of what a “draft” rebuild looks like…years until your picks start to perform and contribute while you collect even more picks…

    hopefully thibs will at least be able to get our young guys playing a defined role…which at least miller seemed to be instituting the last couple of months…

    it hard though moving RJ and frank off the ball, when there’s no one else who can handle the ball…

  158. Z-man: I don’t think RJ/DeRozan is a great comparison, it seems like more of a floor for RJ.

    No, we saw RJs floor last year and it was considerably worse than DeRozan. RJ has to make significant improvements just to reach DeRozan’s level. That’s not how floors work.

  159. There are 24 19 year old rookies who shot sub 44% on 2pt shots their rookie year in modern NBA history. 3 of them are currently on the NY Knicks, (2 more have played for the Knicks), and just over half are still active. So it’s not a very robust sample. There are some good active players on there, including maybe the best player in NBA history, Giannis, Bradley Beal and some useful retired guys like Ricky Davis and pandemic cassandra Stephon Marbury. If you expand it to 45% you get a few more guys who learned how to score, including Carmelo and Trevor Ariza. For whatever reason a lot of these dudes have been Knicks.

  160. “RJ made 64% of his FTs after October, which is in line with what he did at Duke & HS and not terrible”

    64% FT% in the NBA is not terrible…..WTF? Compared to Wilt or Chris Dudley maybe. It’s terrible in high school FFS! For the record his FT shooting this season placed him 113 of 115 qualified players outshooting Andre Drummond and Steven Adams.

    Even if we cherry picked the data as you wished to a whopping 64% that moves him all the way up to 107 of 115!!!!!

    That is not terrible??? That’s some curve you grade on to suit a so called argument.

  161. thenoblefacehumper
    June 12, 2020 at 3:13 pm

    “It remains very funny and weird to me that we talk about Frank Ntilikina more than RJ Barrett.”

    Rookie seasons aren’t really all that indicative, as mentioned throughout this thread.

    Much more indicative is a player’s second season. Every player of any worth in the league has gotten better their second season, not worse. It was when Frank had a historically bad rookie season, and the proceeded to regress that people became alarmed. That’s when the schism happened between the optimists and the pessimists in Frankland.

    (Justise Winslow is actually an interesting case study for both Frank and RJ. He was quite bad as a rookie, and was even worse his second season. He contributes a lot of non-shooting things on the court, though, so he had value. But not enough value to make anybody with sense really want him, as Riley cut-and-ran shortly after giving him the payout. Injuries are at play, of course. But if Winslow is a best-case scenario for RJ (ie, RJ doesn’t learn to shoot well) there’s not much to be excited about. Same for Frank, but even more so.)

  162. Allan Houston had by far the prettiest jump shot I’ve ever seen. So effortless too. Hubert Davis had a great stroke but he used his legs alot so he really was just a spot up shooter who couldn’t really shoot off the dribble, Houston at his size could shit it from anywhere at any angle over anybody. Would’ve loved to see him play in the current NBA, with an improved shot chart he would’ve been so much better. For his day his TS% for a guard with his usage was very good but if he played today he’d easily be a 60% TS% just by taking more 3pters. Ewing is my favorite player ever but when I played in adult leagues in the mid to late 2000’s I wore number 20 because of Allan Houston, unfortunately I couldn’t shoot like him lol.

  163. Bob six Knicks shot sub 64% from the line last year. 64% results in an above average points per possession. For the Knicks offense as a whole, a possession that resulted in FTAs for RJ was a positive outcome. That’s what I meant by not terrible. To me a terrible FT shooter is someone for whom taking FTs is a bad thing.

  164. if you haven’t seen it yet, free solo is on espn…talk about a different kind of athlete, heck, different kind of human…

  165. 64% results in an above average points per possession.

    that’s an interesting stat, never thought of it like that…

  166. BigBlueAL:
    Kyrie Irving getting destroyed on Twitter right now…

    I support what Kyrie is trying to do, but I also can’t help but think he’s partly motivated by some 5G Coronavirus or illuminati conspiracy. Of all people the flat-earther is leading social reform in the NBA.

  167. “64% results in an above average points per possession.

    that’s an interesting stat, never thought of it like that…”

    Yes…. everyone realizes getting to the line is wonderful. It is more efficient than shooting 40% from 3. The call it the Charity Stripe for a reason. Its a gift…. as long as you collect the gift by making them at a reasonable rate. However shooting 64% from the line leaves a quarter point on the table every trip you make there.

    And of course you almost never get a second chance possession from the line where you get a substantial second chance possession when you brick a 3.

    I think Barry Goldwater once said, “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. ”

    Shooting Free throws at 64% is no virtue no matter how one spins it.

  168. DRed:
    Bob six Knicks shot sub 64% from the line last year.64% results in an above average points per possession.For the Knicks offense as a whole, a possession that resulted in FTAs for RJ was a positive outcome.That’s what I meant by not terrible.To me a terrible FT shooter is someone for whom taking FTs is a bad thing.

    This blows me away. RJ Barrett ranks 113 out of 115 FT shooters last season, better only than Steve Adams and Andre Drummond. Baseball Reference
    I don’t know how you spin the stats as positive. So lets use the dreaded eye test. What I saw too much of is RJ going up for a layup, getting hacked, missing the shot then hitting 1 of 2 from the line. The opponent then turn around and buries a 3. Recycle. That was the Knicks in 2019-20.

  169. DRed: Also we should really draft someone this year who can fucking shoot.

    This I agree with. The last 3 Knicks #1 draft picks were Ntilikina, Knox and Barrett. Not one of them can shoot.

  170. On one hand, I definitely understand the perspective that it feels wrong to be playing professional basketball at a time like this for all sorts of reasons. On the other, I also understand the perspective of players who’ve said that playing will give them an enhanced platform as activists.

    I’m in no position to say which perspective is better, or if there’s even a “right” answer at all.

    I do think it’s a little odd that the most vocal member of the former camp is a guy who…wasn’t going to play anyway.

  171. I have a different take on this. The longer basketball is gone the more I am realizing I don’t care and don’t miss it.

  172. All the players should be free to decide whether they want to play or not regardless of whether it’s for health or social justice reasons, but shouldn’t the leadership only include people that don’t believe the earth is flat and that are consistent in their views on justice.

    Lebron James shouldn’t be in a leadership position either. Lebron is for Lebron whether it’s about money in his pocket or rings for his legacy. He made that clear when he trashed Daryl Morey for speaking up about Hong Kong. Other big names in the sport were complicit with their silence.

    “I don’t want to get into a [verbal] feud with Daryl Morey, but I believe he wasn’t educated on the situation at hand, and he spoke,” James said before the Los Angeles Lakers played the Golden State Warriors in a preseason game at Staples Center.

    Maybe this is one of the downsides of kids coming out of college so young and then being coached by frauds.

  173. wow, so it seems like we’ve interviewed at least six or so head coach candidates…maybe thibs isn’t such a lock…

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