Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Monday, January 27, 2020

2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Only Second Team to Ever Lose to a #8 Seed

The Knicks continue their playoff push with a Sunday afternoon matchup against the Miami Heat.

Let’s hope that the Heat players are just now waking up after partying all night in New York City.

Let’s go! Knicks?

Liked it? Take a second to support Brian Cronin on Patreon!

126 comments on “2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Only Second Team to Ever Lose to a #8 Seed

  1. Early Bird

    Deadline to sign Wooten to a 2-way is Wed. Rabb currently hurt. Maybe they’ll finally get that done.

  2. Bruno Almeida

    I’m rooting more for the Drummond rumours to be fake than I’m rooting for the Knicks in this game, but I guess that’s the life of a Knicks fan in a nutshell.

  3. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    he three things I drew from it were that there aren’t many likely trades league wide, there aren’t any bad long term contracts out there this year that teams might give draft picks to get rid of and this year’s draft class is considered really bad.

    We could have seen this coming when teams realized how stupid the summer of 2016 was and decided to pay nothing to no one, save max players last summer. Fewer albatross contracts means fewer opportunities to trade for them for assets in return. This board is consistently ahead of the curve and it’s maddening to watch our collective stupidity strategically outperform NBA front offices left and right until they catch up and the Knicks cannot do the things that can bring surplus value.

  4. KnickfaninNJ

    If they want to sign Wooten to a two way deal, that’s an incentive to trade Smith for a pick of some sort.

  5. DRed

    it’s wild to think about how much more sick i’m going to get at seeing bloomberg for president ads

  6. DRed

    not sure if we’re more likely to do something like trade for drummond if we win or lose so I don’t know what to root for

  7. d-mar

    it’s wild to think about how much more sick i’m going to get at seeing bloomberg for president ads

    Amen. And then you turn the channel and there’s fucking Tom Steyer.

  8. BigBlueAL

    For as bad as the Knicks are at least this season they have small stretches during games where they look pretty good and are fun to watch. Of course then the next few minutes they look like trash but still.

  9. Early Bird

    Missing Morris accentuates how terrible our wing defenders are and how no one else can defend SFs.

  10. Owen

    That was our reminder that if you throw the ball to Randle in the paint he can generally squirm his way to the bucket.

    Going to enjoy the Kevin Knox game…

  11. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    If you get damp for a thicc parabola, go look at the win % graph for the Chiefs game right now

  12. wetbandit

    Not watching the game, but looking at the minutes allocation I suddenly remember why. Who the fk wants to see a bottom 5 team play it’s vets???!!!

  13. Early Bird

    Randle’s grandmother died if anyone was wondering about the personal reasons.

    I assume people are watching football, but this is fun

  14. djphan

    omg wow… that was a crazy finish…

    this is by far the best 4th quarter we’ve played… good offensive sets and some really nice stops in crunch time….

    rj seems like he’s turning the corner…. some real nice games against good defensive teams and now he’s hitting his free throws….

  15. Early Bird

    Every once in awhile Randle reminds you how good he can be. He looked much more mobile driving and working his way to the rim. Still can’t shoot.

    RJ and Knox showed up big!!

  16. ptmilo

    maybe RJ’s best game. pretty close for knox as well. I still can’t believe Butler didn’t try to finish at the rim there.

  17. BigBlueAL

    Can’t believe the Knicks were able to win this game without Frank :-)

    In all seriousness a fun game and nice to see them win against a very good team. Great games by RJ and Knox was nice to see too.

  18. Early Bird

    Mitch looked terrible. If he’s not throwing down a lob he struggles catching the ball. Dumb fouls mean he can’t play down the stretch. Only bad part of the game IMO

    On the other hand, Taj was phenomenal guarding people down the stretch.

  19. Grocer

    A suprisingly nice way to spend the afternoon. RJ’s best game, and some nice defense here and there. I liked Payton leaping over his man to get in position after failing to secure the loose ball. Not a great game for Mitch, seems like he’s been slumping recently. I like these kinds of wins though. Makes the FO less likely to make idiotic moves and doesn’t really impact standings over the course of the season. As long as we stay bottom four-ish, it’s fine.

  20. Sly Wi-yums

    What Happened?

    I missed the game, shocked to see the boxscore favoring the Knicks. Is it a misprint? Heat outshot Knicks 53.8 to 51.7 overall and 40% to 29% from three. Assists and rebounds nearly even.

    Steals and turnovers were the difference – Knicks hoisted 11 more shots. Must have been a fun one, too bad I missed it.

  21. Early Bird

    At the end, 20 sec left, Bullock barely bumps Butler while shooting a 3, NYK were up 3. Miller challenges for the win, but loses.

    Butler hits 2, misses 3rd FT. RJ with the rebound under the basket. He makes no attempt to advance ball, 2 heat guys all over him, but foul with less than a sec before the 8 second violation.

    Jump forward:

    Heat with half a second left, down 3, toss it to Adebayo who hits an incredible twisting, falling away three from 30 ft over the top of Bullock(?). But he’s late on the shot, game over.

    Knicks scoring possessions barely beating the shot clock, solid passing and defense

    Lots of great stuff

  22. DRed

    I’d like to beat the Celtics at least once this season.

    Didn’t see a lot of this one because of the football but it looked like a fun win.

  23. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    Yeah. Fun game. It sound absurd to say, but the Knicks can put a professional lineup out there. There are no legit stars, but there’s some fundamentally decent players.
    Barrett and Knox had good games, at least in spurts. Randle was playing with a heavy heart on his first game back since the death of his grandmother. Taj is a pro. Kadeem Allen is clearly better at point guard than Dennis Smith.

  24. latke

    Yeah. Fun game. It sound absurd to say, but the Knicks can put a professional lineup out there. There are no legit stars, but there’s some fundamentally decent players.

    I don’t think that’s at all absurd to say. With the exception of last year, that’s described most Knicks teams under the PJ, Mills, Perry era (I consider them all one since they’ve only been subtly different so far). You could have said the same thing about the team from 2 years ago — O’Quinn, Lee, KP, Kanter, Jack… a decent unit with more vets like Hardaway and Beasley off the bench. Without those vets, we’d have lost 10+ more games and woulda had Doncic, Ayton, JJJ, Bagley or Young right now rather than Knox.

  25. Frank

    Was at the game today- first game in many years for me, picked a good one!
    Will write more later but my quick impressions:

    Maybe RJ’s and Knox’s best games as pros. Great to see Knox bounce back after a series of really bad games. RJ missed a couple FTs at the end but was really good otherwise.

    Randle is really a load. I have to look on the NBA stats site tonight but a couple times a game Miller draws something up where it literally looks like Randle taking a handoff like a running back. He turned it over on that play tonight but I can’t but think that’s going to be a tough play for defenses to stop in the future. I think basically they’re changing the angle of the dribble handoff so he’s headed straight downhill when he gets it.

    Anyway it was a really fun game. kadeem gave great and I mean great minutes. Taj was really great. I hope this shows the FO that Morris is tradeable without absolutely committing to tanking.

  26. Bruno Almeida

    So it looks like just giving Frank’s minutes to Kadeem yields the same result?

    Very encouraging game for Barrett specially, his ft% has been rising, still only 58% overall but 76% over the last 11 games. If this isn’t a fluke but actual improvement, his efficiency will eventually rise. I always like to win against the Heat and Celtics specially so I’m fine with this one.

  27. DRed

    FT shooting is about the last thing I’m worried about with RJ. I don’t know if he’ll ever develop into an 80%+ shooter but he’ll be fine.

  28. djphan

    rj changed his ft motion from early in the year… he was loading from his hip which is supposedly better long term but may have been messing with him….. he ditched it after a month shooting 45%…

    since then he went back to his old motion where he’s loading near his chest… he’s been at his usual ~66% (college and hs) since then….

    ft shooting does matter although it’s not something to get too crazy over…. what’s important is that rj made the necessary adjustment which he’s consistently been doing…. sooner or later that will snowball into much better results which is why i havent been to concerned about him….

  29. Bruno Almeida

    For me it’s more that it’s an indication of him working on his game and his fundamentals. He’s still so young, but any incremental improvement is relevant.

  30. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    It’s always a good game when RJ Barrett can lead us to a win. I wonder when the guys upstairs will go from “hey let’s just aimlessly put talent together” to “hey we have a really good prospects at the wing and center positions, let’s build something around them.”

    I can’t help but think this could be a half decent team if we had a point guard who could shoot 3s.

  31. geo

    got the game on the dvr… down in san diego for the weekend…got to visit the beach today, wish it wasn’t so much of an occasion these days just to make it to the water…something about the sound of waves crashing and the clean crisp air there that makes it feel so right…

    probably watch the game after work tomorrow…glad to hear RJ and knox played well…

    getting ready for some tool time…I know the pieces fit

  32. Early Bird

    rj changed his ft motion from early in the year… he was loading from his hip which is supposedly better long term but may have been messing with him….. he ditched it after a month shooting 45%…

    Thanks Keith Smart!!!

  33. geo

    what a great venue sdsu is…tight bowl arena with a really steep incline to the seating…all the seats feel like they’re right on top of the stage…

    I had heard maynard was a different kind of “frontman”…sure enough the fucker’s been in the shadow the whole time…what a voice and stage show though…really glad I got the chance to hear this guy sing live…

    just like the cantrell show was all about guitars, the dude with the sticks in his hands is really leading the dance…I can feel the percussion in my chest…

  34. Brian Cronin Post author

    Thanks Keith Smart!!!

    We all know why Fizdale gets jobs, but how did Keith Smart get to be a shooting coach?

  35. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    I can’t help but think this could be a half decent team if we had a point guard who could shoot 3s.

    … and free throws
    … and defend the three point line
    … and not turn the ball over
    … and not commit stupid fouls.

  36. Hubert

    The Ringer put out a player comp article on the rookies:

    https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/1/13/21062904/nba-rookie-player-comps-ja-morant

    It’s the Ringer so take it for what it’s worth, but it was not kind to RJ:

    RJ Barrett, Knicks
    Top Five Comps: (1) Metta World Peace, (2) Josh Jackson, (3) Rudy Gay, (4) MarShon Brooks, (5) Nate Robinson

    What It Means: Of the 120 rookies this century who have attempted enough shots to qualify for the shooting leaderboard, Barrett ranks 117th in TS%. Only Elfrid Payton, Adam Morrison, and Emmanuel Mudiay are worse. (Kevin Knox is 112th; new Knick Dennis Smith Jr. is 114th; Frank Ntilikina, were he to qualify, would be tied with Mudiay for last place. The Knicks sure know how to pick ’em.)

    So while the rest of Barrett’s relevant statistics are average or better relative to other rookies this century, this one blight is so glaring that it would appear to place a firm limit on his ceiling. Even Gay, the best of this bunch offensively, was derided as an inefficient scorer—perhaps the prime example of such a player at the dawn of the current analytics movement. And that comp reflects the best-case scenario for Barrett. (Remember, this exercise doesn’t take defense into account, so Metta World Peace’s value largely dissipates.) Worst case? Well, the rookie numbers for fellow top-five pick Jackson are frightfully similar to Barrett’s—if anything, Barrett’s look worse—and he’s already been salary-dumped and sent to the G League full time.

    I like how they added: “to be clear, we’re don’t mean Ron Artest’s defense.”

    But hey, it’s still better than this:

    Cam Reddish, Hawks
    Top Five Comps: (1) DerMarr Johnson, (2) Nikoloz Tskitishvili, (3) Ben McLemore, (4) Quincy Lewis, (5) Stanley Johnson

  37. Hubert

    I mean, this bit is trolling…

    Only Elfrid Payton, Adam Morrison, and Emmanuel Mudiay are worse. Kevin Knox is 112th; new Knick Dennis Smith Jr. is 114th; Frank Ntilikina, were he to qualify, would be tied with Mudiay for last place. The Knicks sure know how to pick ’em.

    … and it’s no revelation to anyone here. But it really does put the structural problems of the organization front and center. They just rattled off 6 players who we were acquired that were among the 8 worst shooters out 120 this century.

  38. DRed

    Those ringer comps don’t seem to use age as a factor so they’re probably not very helpful, but yeah it’s a problem that the Knicks keep acquiring guys who can’t shoot

  39. Early Bird

    Let’s be real. We all knew coming into the season that RJ would likely end up looking like a Rudy Gay type player. That’s not a surprise.

    As pointed out earlier, RJ has been shooting much better of late after Smart tampered with his shooting. RJ takes so many FTs it’s going to make a difference.

    Also, no other team runs their overwhelmed rookies into the ground quite like the Knicks. But apparently that’s what playoff-bound teams do (?), thanks Pills!!

  40. KnickfaninNJ

    Along with age, The Ringer comps explicitly ignore defense in finding comps and they seem to ignore the position a player plays too. Point guards tend to develop slowly and also shoot worse than players at other positions. Four of the Knicks they cited are point guards, but they are being compared to other positions. So, while I don’t think Barrett is necessarily great, I don’t think the Ringer comps are worth much.

  41. ess-dog

    Argh, that Ringer piece highlights just how much this team has failed RJ’s development.

    Aside from further breaking his ft shooting, he’s not rebounding like he did in school because he’s playing further out and has more bigs ahead of him that. That was expected, especially as he’s mostly been playing guard.

    But most importantly, the Knicks aren’t putting him in a position to pass as the primary ball-handler the way he did at Duke. RJ has much more passing skill than Gay did out of school, and he’s still solidly 19 years old. His defense has been surprisingly good, and his ft shooting is already starting to get back to his usual average. If we put him in the position to get to the line/pass out of drives/lead the break then he’ll easily be a better player than Gay or Jackson.

    Marshon is probably the closest comp to his actual game, but RJ’s much better at passing, getting to the line, and bullying guys down low, but Marshon was 23 when he entered the league and, of course, was a better shooter. If RJ can just get his 3-pt shooting to around .350 (along with the other aforementioned shifts) he can be a really good player, or at the very least, league average on both O and D in a year or two. But the Knicks have to help him get there.

    And with him and Mitch penciled into the lineup for the next decade, this team really needs to acquire plus shooters to put around them.

  42. djphan

    i have some issues with theringer comps…. as dred stated age is a big factor and ts% is a not very informative both as a forward looking metric and when trying to build similarity scores…. it’s more informative to look at how well they shoot at different areas than some all-in-one shooting metric….

    before the draft i compared rj to jason richardson and richard jefferson… and i think it still holds…. only now i think you can sprinkle in some carmelo anthony in there….

    if rj ever figures out his shooting he’s probably more in the jefferson/melo camp…. alot more of his fgs are unassisted at this young of an age and that’s good…. theringer is correct in saying that if rj doesn’t figure out his shooting then it will limit his upside…. but i think he’s passed his atrocious free throw shooting struggles and now he’s just bad…. but in a normal way that can be improved upon….

    josh jackson is an ok comparison …. but jackson was a very good prospect who just weirded his way out of the league…. if he actually worked on his game he’d probably be fine…. and jackson was a year older than anything rj has done…. so i wouldn’t panic about that comp yet….

  43. Hubert

    There’s plenty of issues with the comps. The ringer is mostly BS but I can’t help myself from consuming it. It’s a guilty pleasure.

  44. Early Bird

    Don’t get me wrong, RJ definitely has more tools than Gay. But his shooting could top out there.

    For RJ it’s fine if he can bring his Rebs and Asts up while playing solid D. That’s a better player than his comps.

    We have a strong rebounding team, otherwise he’d grab more boards

    Also weird to include the 5’9″ Nate Robinson in the comp.

  45. DRed

    fwiw Josh Jackson is 22 and playing well in the gleague so he’s probably getting another shot in the big leagues sooner rather than later.

  46. wetbandit

    Most players don’t take a leap in shooting from ‘BAD’ to ‘GOOD’. If RJ gets to ‘decent,’ plays ‘good’ defense, rebounds a bit better, and learns how to be a passing forward, he can be a homeless man’s Pippen. Never a great shooter, but otherwise a huge plus. It’s so hard to prognosticate teenagers.

  47. wetbandit

    FWIW, Pippen’s and Barrett’s first seasons are exremely similar, except for the age and FG% (TS% similar too, due to Barrett’s getting to the line more and shooting more 3’s I think)

  48. geo

    been picking against LSU for all these big games this year…gonna stay consistent and pick against them one last time this season and guess clemson will win tonight…

  49. bobneptune

    FWIW, Pippen’s and Barrett’s first seasons are exremely similar, except for the age and FG% (TS% similar too, due to Barrett’s getting to the line more and shooting more 3’s I think)

    Sweet Jesus…..I cannot actually believe someone on THIS site would makes such a statement.

    The only reason their COUNTING stats are similar is because Barret plays 50 % more minutes than Pippen did.

    look at their per 36 and per 100 possession numbers and they are in different galaxies.

    Pippen is one of the greatest overall players and likely the best wing defender of all time FFS. Barrett may end up being a fine player someday but to quote Shakespeare it is like comparing a Hyperion to a Satyr…..

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Scottie+Pippen&player_id1_select=Scottie+Pippen&y1=1988&player_id1=pippesc01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=RJ+Barrett&player_id2_select=RJ+Barrett&y2=2020&player_id2=barrerj01&idx=players

  50. KnickfaninNJ

    The Pippen comparison is also unfair because Pippen was three years older in his first season than Barrett is now. When there is that big an age difference at that age, all bets are off.

  51. bobneptune

    The Pippen comparison is also unfair because Pippen was three years older in his first season than Barrett is now. When there is that big an age difference at that age, all bets are off.

    Who do you think was better prepared for the NBA the #1 AAU player in the world who played before 24,000 a night and was coached by Coach K for a year or a guy the played in front of 213 people at Central Arkansas :-)

    Also something I did not know:

    November 12, 1986: Traded by the New York Knicks (as a future 1987 1st round draft pick) with a 1990 2nd round draft pick (Steve Henson was later selected) to the Seattle SuperSonics for Gerald Henderson and a 1987 1st round draft pick (Mark Jackson was later selected).

  52. KnickfaninNJ

    You can see by Barrett’s demeanor that he is, as you say, prepared for playing in front of large crowds, but he still has three years of age to catch up to Pippen’s first year shooting ability, which is a lot. I don’t think the comparison is worth making, but I also don’t think that Barrett is worse than Pippen because his shooting numbers.

  53. thenoblefacehumper

    I caught the second half of Sunday’s game and my main takeaway is that Bullock should have some trade value if his health holds up, either at this deadline or the next. There’s no rush to trade him since we have him (at a very low number) under contract next season, but it would be a waste to not get something out of him. He’s the kind of player every contender wants regardless of their roster composition, and he has more to his game than waiver wire 3PT specialists like Ellington.

  54. wetbandit

    – I did say homeless mans scottie pippen. I mean, in terms of his role and his strengths and weaknesses, I’m not far off. A big guard who can defend, pass pretty well, drive, rebound is what I want to see RJ as.

    – Also, I was basing my comp on all stats. High rebound percentage (scotties ORebs are higher likely due to the different times but RJ has similar totals, less treb% which is noisy), Similar TS% as I already noted, and similar ast%.

    I stand by the homeless Scottie comp

  55. Owen

    My recollection is that Scottie Pippen had a big late growth spurt, I think he was a pg going into college and then grew seven inches. I think Rodman was even more of an outlier there, I think he added a foot after high school.

    But it’s dumb to compare Barrett to Pippen except for the fact they have both struggled coming into the league.

    Barrett has had a handful of solid games but overall I don’t see a bright future (staying consistent with how I felt about him at Duke.) He’s a blunt instrument who can get a few things done but I think the hype far exceeds his talent. Hoping to be wrong.

  56. bobneptune

    You can see by Barrett’s demeanor that he is, as you say, prepared for playing in front of large crowds, but he still has three years of age to catch up to Pippen’s first year shooting ability, which is a lot. I don’t think the comparison is worth making, but I also don’t think that Barrett is worse than Pippen because his shooting numbers.

    Who said anything about Pippen being quantum levels better than Barrett as a function of “shooting”?

    Pippen was NEVER even a good shooter. He shot >35% from 3 exactly twice. His career FT % is 70.4. He was great because he was a perfect defensive mix of height, length quickness and savvy. He isn’t 17th in NBA history in VORP because he was some sort of offensive sharpshooter.

    There are gaggles of better shooters in the NBA that Scottie Pippen, but there are very few basketball players than Pippen in the history of the league.

    I’ll take the “under” of Barrett ever getting close to Pippen. Frank has a better chance……

  57. djphan

    pippen did have a very late and very large growth spurt….

    rj’s not like that… he’s a lot more like richard jefferson… someone who’s probably average to above average athletically across the board…. only rj doesn’t have jason kidd throwing him gimmes 5x a game…

    and that’s really the difference… rj’s at 35% assisted 2p fg’s…. even melo was over 50% in his early years… rj can be a good piece for an offense but this iteration of him is not it….

    the good news is that rj isn’t totally failing at it…. and it seems like the offense is getting a bit more movement and flow to it so maybe it starts moving north but we desperately need better coaching and better pg play… we have a lot of guys dependent on that and that’s a big reason why we have folks shooting poorly….

  58. bobneptune

    – I did say homeless mans scottie pippen. I mean, in terms of his role and his strengths and weaknesses, I’m not far off.

    You are so quantifiably off base to be beyond ludicrous. Pippen’s claim to fame is being arguably the BEST WING DEFENDER EVER. He is 17th in NBA history in lifetime in VORP. Barrett is a negative ws/48 player. Wishcast upon him what you may……

    That’s like saying I am homeless person’s Jesus or Einstein (pro tip…. I’m neither)

  59. wetbandit

    Dude, when people talk about ‘comparisons’ they’re talking about the TYPE of player they are, in terms of their strengths and weaknesses, not how likely they are to become that player. So when I say “HOMELESS MANS PIPPEN” I’m saying a shitty version of Pippen, what’s so hard to understand? RJ seems to have good defensive instincts, and I’d say he’s likely to become a plus defender. He is a poor shooter, good driver, big for his position, has a post-up game, can rebound well, and can pass very well. IS HE A GOOD PLAYER? NO, BUT THAT’S DAMN COMP FO’ ME

  60. Stratomatic: Frequently wrong, but never in doubt

    The story I’m hearing is that the Knicks are considering trading for Drummond because he’s still young and way further along in is physical and game development than Mitch. That short term boost would also free them to trade Mitch as part of a deal for another youngish star player that is ready to compete now since Mitch has become such a hot commodity around the NBA.

    Personally, I think that would be a horrible move because it’s fairly easy to demonstrate that Drummond is not nearly as good as his reputation or the salary he would command to sign back. Also, imo, it’s better than 50-50 Mitch will develop into the better two-way player long term even if we have to “pay him” and extend him before this contract is up and he hasn’t actually earned it on court with development.

    The icing on the cake is that part of the Detroit deal would supposedly involve Frank who Detroit wants. Frank and his agent may not be opposed to the idea because the agent has another player there.

    If that deal goes down I would recommend Mills/Perry go for brain MRIs because there’s clearly something neurologically wrong them beyond the fact that they know nothing about basketball and have already set our rebuild back a couple years with their idiocy to date.

  61. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    We can all cool it on the RJ Barrett comparisons. When Brandon Ingram was his age he looked like a giraffe on skates, and now that guy looks like he might be as good as Ben Simmons assuming his health stays in tact.

    RJ Barrett is 19 years old and already gets to the foul line, he doesn’t force it on offense, and he doesn’t foul. By the end of his rookie contract he’s going to be an All Star. The shots will fall, he’ll be elevating a little better, and he’ll have the room to handle and dictate the flow of offense.

  62. Stratomatic: Frequently wrong, but never in doubt

    RJ is almost obviously going to become a very good player. I’d say he certainly has all-star potential even if he’s never a #1 franchise player. He has multiple big boy skills already and he’s only 19. His ceiling is almost entirely based on how good a shooter he becomes over time, but work ethic tends to lead to improved shooting. He’s already shooting WAY better from the FT line almost every month. I could see him breaking out into a pretty good player as soon as next year and worst case the year after that. Then you see how far he goes as he gets into his mid 20s.

  63. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    And if the Knicks trade for Andre Drummond they might as well send Mitchell Robinson to OKC for Chris Paul. I’d hate both moves, but at least there would be some consistency to the approach. Drummond, Morris, Barrett, Bullock, and CP3 with whatever scraps you could put together might be really fun to watch and there would be room on the floor for everybody to operate. Trading for Andre Drummond so Mitch can back him up and Elfrid Payton and Frank Ntilikina can struggle to get everyone the ball would be a very frustrating experience. I hate watching Portis in the post. I have no desire to watch Drummond do that either.

    A trade like this one would piss me off and scream “lol we don’t understand the win curve” but at least it would be putting your roster in position to work together. Adding Drummond to this foolishness would just be more foolishness.

  64. Owen

    I am going to take the under on RJ ever becoming a “very good” player. Although I know in three years we will be arguing over whether he is “very good” or not.

    Although if we trade Mitch and Frank for Drummond I won’t be arguing about anything because I will have given up on the Knicks for good.

  65. Frank

    Wow – MLB suspending Astros’ GM and manager x 1 year, losing 1st and 2nd round draft picks in 2020 and 2021, and $5M fine

  66. Frank

    kinda feel like RJ’s floor is pretty high, not sure his ceiling though.
    He has good size
    He’s an adequate NBA athlete
    Already a pretty decent defender even at age 19, and big enough to guard multiple positions
    can handle and is a good passer

    i see him maxing out at 3rd best player on a really good team
    worst case is going to be a guy who gets 20-25 min/game and plays 12 years in the league. that’s a pretty good floor.

  67. ess-dog

    Trading for Drummond, and in turn, trading Mitch for another piece would cause such an outrage, and yet, it would be so on-brand for the Knicks.

    I can’t even.

  68. bobneptune

    And if the Knicks trade for Andre Drummond they might as well send Mitchell Robinson to OKC for Chris Paul.

    This had entered my mind as the most Knicksian out come but I stupidly dismissed it as some dystopian Orwellian nightmare…..

  69. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Last week one of my customers told me nothing would happen to the Astros because “everyone does it, sign stealing is a part of the game.

    Guess what team he roots for.

  70. The Glass Half Rebuilt

    That’s how crazy the idea of trading for Andre Drummond is to me. You have a better player making like $2M and the only reason why you don’t know that is because there is no spacing on the floor to help Mitch “dive and thrive” as Clyde would maybe say. So if you want Andre Drummond’s age 27-30 seasons? Get him a damn point guard and hope RJ Barrett turns into a two-way stud on the wing.

    That’s why you shouldn’t trade for Andre Drummond. He’s done nothing in Detroit, you’d be paying a guy a salary that you can beat just by developing a new rim runner in the G League every few seasons (we have Kenny Wooten and Mitchell Robinson and these idiots want to trade and max Andre Drummond), and then you don’t even have the infrastructure in place to make a guy like him successful.

  71. geo

    winning world series >

    MLB suspending Astros’ GM and manager x 1 year, losing 1st and 2nd round draft picks in 2020 and 2021, and $5M fine

  72. Owen

    Yeah, apparently other teams are circling Wooten. I saw a clip of an alley oop he had the other day where he was so high and horizontal he about looked like he was going to put his body through the rim. If they let him walk would be pretty Knicksy and a damn shame because whether he ends up good or not he is a lock to be one of the most entertaining players we have had here in a long long time.

  73. Hubert

    Wow they threw the book at Houston.

    I presume the Sox are going to just get away with it, even though they were caught red-handed repeatedly.

  74. KnickfaninNJ

    Strat, your post about why the Knicks like Drummond is much too logical and therefore really scary.

  75. Bruno Almeida

    The reports indicate the Knicks are still not willing to give up first rounders in deals, so my reasoning is that the idiots at the helm view Drummond as a “star” that can be acquired while keeping the first rounders intact. They’re probably desperate to not be seen by media and the fans as the same garbage as the last administrations, so the first round picks became untouchable because that was such a notorious thing to shit on the Knicks.

    As usual it screams of stupidity and idiots trying to save their own jobs instead of actually building a team, but well, let’s wait and see because it might just actually be a random rumour that we’re all giving too much credit to because we’re collectively scarred by this awful franchise.

  76. KnickfaninNJ

    I love having Robinson and hate the Drummond trade rumors, but I can’t say Robinson is the better of the two players. Mitch is good against teams that have certain sorts of big guys, but the game against the Laker, Clippers and Utah showed that a good defensive big can stymie him. He’ll get better against players like that, but it will take a while.

  77. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Robinson is five years younger and isn’t going to ask for the supermax next year. C’mon.

  78. Frank

    Wow – not only were the Astros GM and manager suspended, the owner fired them now too.
    That’s a pretty solid deterrent punishment by MLB. Wow.
    Next thing to do is to just stop with the catcher giving finger signals to the pitcher. This is the freaking 21st century. we use computers more powerful than anything that existed 20 years ago in our pockets. Devise some sort of in-catcher-glove signalling system that you can’t see with a camera. Or something. (but maybe baseball doesn’t want to do that because it’ll be even more strikeouts?)

  79. d-mar

    You know where Drummond would be a perfect fit? Boston. I don’t know if they have the assets (or are willing to give up the assets) to acquire him, but he would make the Celtics a very scary team.

  80. KnickfaninNJ

    Robinson is five years younger and isn’t going to ask for the supermax next year. C’mon.

    I agree that Robinson’s more valuable than Drummond. That different from being the better player at the moment.

  81. Bruno Almeida

    Drummond is a terrific rebounder and a good shot blocker, but that’s pretty much it, he can dunk but can’t seem to figure out that he’s simply not efficient enough to do anything else other than dunking.

    He plateaued majorly, it’s remarkable how identical his stats have been for the last 2 years and this season, so he’s very likely not improving anymore. As much as he’s probably the league’s best rebounder, and I think rebounding is very important, that’s just not a guy you give a max contract in today’s NBA if you don’t already have 2 legit max guys on your roster. He’s a guy teams like the Celtics, Clippers or maybe the Raptors should be chasing, not anyone else.

  82. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    Supposedly the deal for Drummond is Frank and Randle. I would do that. If it’s more, especially if it includes Mitch – no. This would nail down the Knicks as the worst free throw shooting team, maybe ever (not including the Smelters).
    The question it raises for me is, how Drummond and Robinson end up playing together. It doesn’t feel right.

  83. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    @100 – I don’t know what it’ll take but I want Wooten on this team NOW!

  84. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    The question it raises for me is, how Drummond and Robinson end up playing together. It doesn’t feel right.

    The answer? They don’t. There’s no way they can coexist on the floor.

  85. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    Next thing to do is to just stop with the catcher giving finger signals to the pitcher. This is the freaking 21st century. we use computers more powerful than anything that existed 20 years ago in our pockets. Devise some sort of in-catcher-glove signalling system that you can’t see with a camera. Or something. (but maybe baseball doesn’t want to do that because it’ll be even more strikeouts?)

    I’m not much of a nostalgia glutton, but the pitcher/catcher dialogue is a charmingly human part of the game. The real issue I had with the “bang the trash cans” videos is how easy it is to decipher the signs. Football teams are doing wildly entertaining shit to deter play-call theft (like those combinations of graphics being put on posters on some college sidelines); baseball teams are still pointing to the part of the plate and signalling a finger or three to indicate where and which pitch to throw.

    The Astros deserved a whole lot of grief for what they did (I think the monetary penalty is weak as hell) but when it’s that easy to instantaneously decipher a pitch, the problem is not only with their unethical conduct.

  86. dtrickey

    what a great venue sdsu is…tight bowl arena with a really steep incline to the seating…all the seats feel like they’re right on top of the stage…

    I had heard maynard was a different kind of “frontman”…sure enough the fucker’s been in the shadow the whole time…what a voice and stage show though…really glad I got the chance to hear this guy sing live…

    just like the cantrell show was all about guitars, the dude with the sticks in his hands is really leading the dance…I can feel the percussion in my chest…

    Having seen Tool a couple of times, all of the above is accurate. Even if you aren’t necessarily a fan, the shows are worthwhile for the visual experience alone. Danny Carey’s ability to change time signatures with ease coupled with the bands ability to not lose step is really impressive. Only tighter band that I have seen live is The Mars Volta.

  87. dtrickey

    Also looks like the Knicks are waiving Rabb to get Wooten on a two-way deal. Makes sense given Rabb is injured, but thank Christ we didn’t let someone else swoop in on him.

  88. Early Bird

    Glad we finally secured Wooten. Really want to see a Wooten-Mitch pairing. Will probably be terrible, but also incredibly fun.

    I’m willing to counter offer Portis and DSJr for Drummomd. Maybe 1st round swap rights.

  89. bobneptune

    Shams Charania: Knicks are waiving forward Ivan Rabb and planning to sign forward Kenny Wooten of G League Westchester to a two-way NBA deal, league sources tell @The Athletic @Stadium.

  90. Early Bird

    I fearfully suspect the only thing holding up a terrible Drummond deal is finding a backup PG to replace Frank.

  91. GoNYGoNYGo - Dolan must sell

    The punishment to the Astros is a slap on the wrist. They’re losing 4 top picks but baseball picks are much, much less important than hoops or pigskin draft picks and since they’re a good team, those aren’t going to be high picks. And $5M is pocket change. Hinch and Luhnow pay a death-penalty price. Since they were both fired, and since they have not served their suspensions, there’s no way that they’ll ever be hired by anyone again. This was a ball that was badly dropped by Manfred.

    I’m so glad that Wooten got signed. HE’S a great addition to back up Mitch as a rim protector.

  92. Early Bird

    Well who’s in charge of stealing signs and who wants to work again? Seems like an effective deterrent.

  93. The Honorable Cock Jowles

    They’re not insignificant though, especially in the luxury tax era, where having superstars being paid a fraction of their value until their late 20s is a huge advantage.

    George Springer, #1 overall in 2011
    Carlos Correa, #1 overall in 2012
    Alex Bregman, #2 overall in 2015

    That’s 14.6 of their WAR for their 2017 World Series Champions* team that they paid five million dollars in salary to that year.

    The Red Sox are rumored to be looking to unload their MVP center-fielder while he’s just 27 because they can’t afford to keep him with some of the huge vet’s contracts on their roster, and that team prints money with the best of ’em. The picks are a big deal for the Astros, even if they’re not losing #1 overalls with them.

    The cash fine is negligible.

  94. swiftandabundant

    No to drummond please!

    Bring up Wooten. Next yr bring back Taj. C rotation of Mitch, Wooten and Taj.

    Draft a guard (PG?) who can shoot!

    Trade Morris! Trade Ellington and DSJ too. All for expirings and future picks, no matter what they are.

    Build around RJ and Mitch! Continue to develop Frank and Knox off the bench. Also, give Dotson more minutes!

    Bring back Elf, Taj and Randle. Use cap space this summer to get some more wings/guards on short term contracts WHO CAN SHOOT!

    This shouldn’t be hard. RJ and Mitch are the makings of a good foundation going forward but they need time. Patience is key right now. The team is not in a horrible position right now and the path to long term respectability and contention is visible in front of us. But a win now move right now could really muck it all up.

  95. dtrickey

    Yeah not keen on the Drummond noise. FO came out in off-season and basically confirmed if they couldn’t get KD and/or Kyrie, they wouldn’t be chasing faux max guys. Drummond is the epitome of a faux max guy. Given the record it doesn’t even make sense from a playoff push/contention perspective. Hard pass. If the options are trade for Drummond or do nothing before the trade dead line, I am in the do nothing party.

Leave a Reply