2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ Anthony Davis’ Team Before He Leaves For the Knicks

The Knicks’ road trip continues with a visit to the Lakers, whose star player, Anthony Davis, turned down an extension from the Lakers, so the only remaining possibility is that he plans to sign with the Knicks this offseason, but only if they prove that they care about winning by not trading Marcus Morris.

Let’s go! Knicks?

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153 thoughts to “2019-20 Game Thread: Knicks @ Anthony Davis’ Team Before He Leaves For the Knicks”

  1. Re: OKC, I thought they actually got better after the trades because I’d much rather have CP3 over Westbrook, and Gallinari + SGA might actually be better than what Paul George gives you. It looks like they’re starting to come together, and that team is built perfectly for Chris Paul. I’d bet they finish with a better record than the Rockets and Mavericks this year.

  2. I sometimes think Miller has issued a “no layups” foul memo–Portis is just unbelievably bad at it

  3. LeBron is angry. That’s not good for the Knicks.

    Morris was our best option to defend Lebron. He was gonna go off either way

  4. if i was casting a detective procedural and needed a hapless detective who is blatantly phoning it in and always alluding to the shitty carolina skiff he’s going to buy in retirement i would take a hard look at mike miller

  5. The good news about Randle returning to crap form is that we no longer have to worry about a winning streak.

  6. reggie bullock has made like 9 blatant defensive mistakes so far

    But he’s made up for it with his dead eye shooting

  7. Ellington had 12 min over this game and last. He’s already played himself back out of the rotation.

  8. Mitch really needs to get more than 8 min, even if he fouls out. Taj really adds nothing at this point. He’s too short at C to make an impact even when he’s in the right position. He’s too poor a finisher despite getting good looks off the PnR

  9. Frank has cracked the 50 TS barrier for the season and the first time in his career! His TS at the moment is 50 on the button. Keep him out of the rest of the game so us Frank boosters will be able to take a screenshot of this historic moment before he returns underwater.

  10. *sigh*

    This is the game Marcus Morris ends up sitting out. We had a shot to keep the score respectable with him, but now I feel a KO coming in the 3rd quarter.

    I feel any Laker fan bragging about winning this game is akin to a 16 year old 6-footer bragging about dunking on an 8 year old.
    But that’s exactly what my supervisor and basketball coach are doing right now…

  11. I’m just glad they signed vets like Portis to show the younger players what winning culture looks like.

  12. I started getting in to it with a laker fan this morning, until I suddenly remembered – I had absolutely nothing to say…

  13. One of the crew guys of Last Chance U is a Knicks fan. Met him today at work, and we gave each other a hug.

  14. Can’t listen to these Laker Homer announcers anymore. It’s truly nauseating.
    It’s very difficult to determine which is worse : the Knicks offense or their defense.

    I’m turning this off, I’ll never get those two hours back again..

  15. This was an embarrassment, a wake-up call that underscores just how far the Knicks have to climb to be good. They were manhandle and dominated in every facet of the game.

  16. This was an embarrassment, a wake-up call that underscores just how far the Knicks have to climb to be good. They were manhandle and dominated in every facet of the game.

    I mean the Lakers are the best team in the league and we were missing our best player/Lebron defender (not that it would necessarily would have helped much)

  17. Laker Announcers:
    Stu:Reggie can’t guard leBron in the post…
    The Other Guy:what is he a 200?
    Stu: he should put some weight in his back pocket
    TOG: he should put some shorts with the back pocket on
    Stu: he should put his wallet in that back pocket…they get paid so much these players
    …………uncomfortable silence

    A gem after gem after gem all game long and they be homerin like Austin Carr.

    The Knicks are way ahead in the announcing game…on the court game not so much.

  18. Wally isn’t as good as Clyde, but he has some moments that are good. And he’s much better than than it seems the laker announcers are.

  19. Re: OKC, I thought they actually got better after the trades because I’d much rather have CP3 over Westbrook, and Gallinari + SGA might actually be better than what Paul George gives you. It looks like they’re starting to come together, and that team is built perfectly for Chris Paul. I’d bet they finish with a better record than the Rockets and Mavericks this year.

    I don’t know if there ever was a point where we could acquire Chris Paul merely for matching salary but I presume we’re past it.

    If you’re going to do the “try to win with veterans while collecting assets to rebuild” strategy, he is the guy to do it with. A lineup next year of Paul-Edwards-Barrett-Morris*-Robinson with Frank and Knox on the bench plus a bunch of fliers from the G League is a proper mix of veterans and kids.

    * Morris being re-signed after trading him.

    Plus the guy is still a joy to watch, and I do value entertainment from this team.

  20. If you’re going to do the “try to win with veterans while collecting assets to rebuild” strategy, he is the guy to do it with.

    Maybe, but teams who try this tend to find that they neither win much nor collect enough assets to rebuild. The two goals simply contradict each other in too many ways. The more expensive veterans you acquire, the less space you have to absorb assets. By racking up wins on the backs of veterans, you worsen your own assets. I don’t know why this is so hard to grasp (and I know you’re not endorsing the “strategy”) but you really don’t need to look any further than the Knicks of the past 20 years.

    Anyway, we’re 10-27 (22 win pace). Anyone still think we shouldn’t trade a few months of Marcus Morris for the best offer we can get?

  21. Has anyone on here posted an overview on the top 10 in the draft so far? Everyone (Wiseman excluded, he seems good) looks like total crap. (Correct me if I’m wrong, LaMelo=chucker with poor %, Edwards=same but slightly better, Cole=even worse, somehow, etc). Haliburton has great numbers, but haven’t heard of him…

  22. Chris Paul is a special case and the one worth making an exception for. Very few players actually “make everyone around them better”, but he is one of them, even at an advanced age. I think every young player on our team would benefit from having him on the floor, making all of them either better players or more attractive trade assets.

    And yes, $40mm is way too much but if your team is Paul ($40mm), one other decent vet ($20mm), and 5 guys on rookie deals ($30mm total), that still leaves you ~$30mm to be flexible with.

    Plus that one decent vet at $20mm could be someone on a bad deal that you get assets for.

    And finally, there’s a good chance that he single-handedly turns us into a team free agents aren’t scared to go to. When he retires, it probably wouldn’t be laughable to believe we might sign the best free agent on the market to replace him.

    I think all that plus the value of us getting to watch him instead of this dreck is enough to counter the devaluation of our own first round picks.

  23. Wally isn’t as good as Clyde, but he has some moments that are good. And he’s much better than than it seems the laker announcers are.

    Strongly disagree. He’s fine in the studio, I don’t mind him there. He has good presence on screen. But I can’t listen to him doing a game. He hasn’t improved at all either, unlike Rebecca who has really stepped up her game.

    Great game for Carmelo last night. 5-8 from three and an incredibly efficient 28 points with just one turnover.

  24. BTW how do you feel about the 14th at 8pm (v Milwaukee) for a Knicks drink at Eastpoint on Ave B?

    (Anyone else on the board free to join, as well. Z-Man you can have your favorite whisky on me.)

  25. I’m sure we could go back and forth on the merits of taking on Chris Paul for nothing, but there’s truly no point. That’s never going to be on the table. The guy is having a damn good season.

    I’m not sure what it says about the NBA that the contract of a .189 WS48, 4.2 BPM player is considered “toxic” but I don’t like it. Maybe the salary cap is too restrictive, maybe teams are too cheap, some combination of the two, I don’t know. I just know it’s very bizarre that there’s a player blatantly on the market who would drastically improve the fortunes of almost every contender and no one seems all that interested.

  26. Take a look at Frank’s splits for this season.

    Before this season, he’s never had a month with a TS% above 50%.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/ntilila01/splits/2020

    I’m not saying what he’s done so far in January is sustainable, but his shot selection is improving and he’s clearly been much better from the FT line. He has a long way to go, but if he can continue making the same kind of slow small progress with his handle, penetration, passing skills, and inches forward shooting, it’s not impossible that he’s a neutral player on offense as soon as next year to go along with his plus defense. That would make him a net plus player at 22. I’d sign on for that.

  27. Re: OKC, I thought they actually got better after the trades because I’d much rather have CP3 over Westbrook, and Gallinari + SGA might actually be better than what Paul George gives you. It looks like they’re starting to come together, and that team is built perfectly for Chris Paul. I’d bet they finish with a better record than the Rockets and Mavericks this year.

    Westbrook is shot and has a low basketball IQ

    CP3 is shot, but has a high basketball IQ.

    It was probably close to a wash, but I prefer CP3 because he figured to get more out of what he has left physically basked on his intelligence.

    Gallo is no Paul George because George plays both sides at a very high level and Gallo is more of a one sided player who may not get to the FT line as much in the playoffs if they are calling games differently.

    Overall I agree. OKC figured to be a lot better than people thought and they are set up well long term for a rebuild. I was dying to bet the “over”. The thing that held me back was the potential for OKC to trade CP3/Gallo mid season and tank the end of the season.

  28. Frank’s basically the same age as Nickeil Alexander-Walker, the breakout “star” of the summer league and exhibition season and Frank is having a far better season.

    He’s got nice shooting form, high basketball IQ, and is of course an excellent/elite defender. There’s a lot there to work with and it would have been the height of folly for the idiots in the front office to move him for a bag of balls.

  29. Russ’s big problem this season is that he absolutely cannot shoot 3s.

    Frank’s only .oo3% away from hitting that long sought .500TS%!

  30. Frank’s only .oo3% away from hitting that long sought .500TS%!

    And he’s a mere .08 away from being a PLUS player according to RPM! He’s ranked 51st out of 86 guards at the moment per RPM.

    Frank’s history is to head south for the winter at this time so who knows. It would help if the team were less focused on wins and encouraged Mitch to shoot some corner 3’s and wide open 2’s while Frank should be encouraged to drive and not fret about the results.

    Regarding Knox, one possible blessing might be that Dolan realizes he’s a bust which hastens Mills’ exit. But who am I kidding? Knox dunks in transition and Dolan turns to Mills and says: That kid’s really great, you really nailed that pick Millsy!

  31. I doubt Knox will ever be great, but I wouldn’t give up on him. He’s in a shooting dlump at the moment, but odds are he will come out of it and get better.

  32. @68 Let’s hope that’s just the FO adopting the optimal negotiating position. It would make sense that they don’t appear to be too eager to trade Morris.

  33. I have no hope of lame ducks Mills/Perry making any sort of longview trades that we would like to see.

    Also, any reason Trier, he of the continued 38.5% 3 point shooting, is not playing more? I get it, forcing Barrett to play at SG because of the glut of PF’s is the reason. Having Ellington/Bullock eating our ‘3 point shooter vet’ minutes doesn’t help either. But man is it messing with playing time for some of our youth (I would love to see Ignas play spot minutes) – A lineup of PG/Trier/Barrett/Morris/Mitch is nice and modern looking to me. I mean, Trier has some damn good shooting numbers, he should absolutely be playing more than Ellington, et al.

  34. I have mixed feelings on Knox.

    I thought it was a bad idea to pass on Mikal Bridges for Knox, but at least Knox looks like he has a passionate desire to get better and learn. I think he probably WILL keep getting better given how young and physically immature he still is.

    The problem is that he’s a negative on both sides.

    I’m way more comfortable with drafting players are a known quantity/quality on one side and trying to develop the other side over a few years than a guy that’s below average/bad on both sides and hoping he gets better at everything. Knox has a LOT of improving to do on both sides.

    That’s also kind of why I still feel good about RJB.

    I wasn’t thrilled with his shooting problems and there were questions about his defense. That’s more questions that I’d like from a #3 pick. But I think he’s shown enough on defense to be less worried about him being a clear negative on that side long term. He could even become good. So now we are really only talking about improving his outside shot over time for him to become a pretty good/very good player.

  35. Despite the headline Begley isn’t really reporting that they aren’t looking to trade their guys, but that they aren’t looking for the typical return.

    Something worth noting on the trade deadline: Several teams in touch with the Knicks recently came away with the impression that they aren’t solely focused on acquiring draft picks, expiring contracts or young players who have struggled with other teams in trades.

    Those teams say the Knicks have shown an interest in acquiring starter-level players who can help the team in the short-term and in future seasons, per sources.

    That’s basically what strat has been calling for, rather than going for picks use your assets to get guys who can help you be decent now. I’m pretty skeptical, there’s a reason trades like that don’t happen – the teams who want to acquire your veteran role players obviously aren’t going to be looking to trade their productive players to do so (because they’re trying to win now), they want to give you dead money and picks. You can do a 3-way trade, but that’s more complicated, and anyway if there’s “starter level players who can help in the short-term and in future seasons” available, they’re likely to be snapped up by the teams trying to win now. Those teams have more incentive to trade off future assets than the Knicks so they’re likely to beat any reasonable offer we would make.

    I’m not opposed to the idea in principal it just seems pretty unlikely to work out to me. The trade of a low-first and some filler salary for Marcus Morris is simple. It’s much harder to construct a trade that makes any sense of the format Begley is suggesting.

  36. God, I can’t believe Mills is now looking for a solid starter. We are going to be stuck in Detroit-Piston-8th-seed land forever.

    I know you need to look for inefficiencies in the market and try to exploit them, but this is absurd. Who do they think they’re getting? Bogdanovic??

    OK, I’m hoping this is nothing more than a nice little smokescreen [clutches pearls].

  37. Frank will have every chance to unleash his hidden power. His been shopped before and no one has any interest, so he’ll almost certainly be here. He currently ranks 217/258 in BPM among NBA players who have played 500+ minutes, but that’s a fake stat.

    On the off chance the hidden power is not unleashed, I suspect we’ll see a lot more of this:

    It would help if the team were less focused on wins and encouraged Mitch to shoot some corner 3’s and wide open 2’s while Frank should be encouraged to drive and not fret about the results.

    Frank has only been failed. Just like how the only reason he meekly tosses the ball to some other scrub when he gets past half-court is because that’s the explicit directive from his coach, ignoring the fact that Elfrid Payton does no such thing.

  38. Also, any reason Trier, he of the continued 38.5% 3 point shooting, is not playing more?

    He’s close to a replacement player according to VORP, not far from average in WS/48, and has an excellent TS, 654. All these numbers are better than last year. Yet he gets 10 minutes less, for the pleasure of playing Ellington. I wonder what’s the backstory on this.

  39. Those teams say the Knicks have shown an interest in acquiring starter-level players who can help the team in the short-term and in future seasons, per sources.

    Worst possible outcome. #DolansRazor

    I’m pretty skeptical, there’s a reason trades like that don’t happen – the teams who want to acquire your veteran role players obviously aren’t going to be looking to trade their productive players to do so (because they’re trying to win now), they want to give you dead money and picks.

    This. You don’t even need to be skeptical. It’s an absolute certainty that this ‘plan’ will not work out for the Knicks. We’ve seen this shit before. It’s a joke.

  40. There is no even half-coherent argument for doing anything other than getting as many picks and/or intriguing young players signed for a long time as possible.

    As Begley himself notes after summarizing the ridiculous stance the front office seems to be taking: “That’s interesting to note because the Knicks are 10-27, tied for the third-worst record in the NBA, and the front office faces a tenuous future because of the team’s poor play. ”

    We can try talking ourselves into whatever Stratisms we want, but I think in their heart of hearts everyone here knows how stupid it would be to try to “add” to this dumpster fire team.

  41. He currently ranks 217/258 in BPM among NBA players who have played 500+ minutes, but that’s a fake stat.

    How many times do we have to go through this? OBPM is fine but DBPM is a weak stat for players who are at the extreme. Enes last season had a 2+ DPBM for awhile even though the eye test clearly showed he was terrible. If you want to buttress your argument, cite PIPM instead.

    Frank has only been failed. Just like how the only reason he meekly tosses the ball to some other scrub when he gets past half-court is because that’s the explicit directive from his coach, ignoring the fact that Elfrid Payton does no such thing.

    Payton is about to turn 26 and he’s got 5 years of NBA experience. You appreciate the difference, right? To improve at driving and finishing, Frank needs to do those things. I don’t care if it’s in the G League or the NBA. He’s less likely to do that on a team where the focus is on winning versus development. The same holds for Mitch trying some corner 3’s and shooting wide open 2’s.

  42. I just fail to understand how we couldn’t get excited about going from:

    (1) three 1RPs and four 2RPs over the next two drafts

    to, say

    (2) five 1RPs and six 2RPs over the same period

    Like, what player on this team, save RJ and Mitch, would be worth paying a vet’s contract to/keeping until expiration rather than having five cost-controlled, four-year rookie-contract players from 2021-2025, and six players on contracts so small that they could be waived without any real damage? We’ve endured this franchise stretching Joakim Noah’s $72M contract, yet there’s no appetite for paying six second-round 19-22 year olds a total of, like, $12M a year with lots of team options?

    If you think Barrett, Mitch and hell, even Frank are the cornerstones of a rebuild, why would you not want to buttress them with the prospect of more young talent? By the summer of 2022 this entire roster could be rookie-contract players and we might still have $60-70M in cap space to cut the chaff and sign guys who contribute to playoff success.

  43. @71- Agree on Trier, I can’t understand why he is racking up the DNP CD’s. With all of his faults ( including being allergic to passing ) I would much rather watch him play than Ellington, Bullock, etc… Trier can put the ball in the basket and would make a good scorer off the bench, and this team needs scoring. Clearly he’s done something to piss off the powers that run this wretched franchise.

  44. What did the Pills administration spend so much money on if we need to trade for ‘starter level players’?

  45. Listen, we really don’t need to argue about Frank Ntilikina anymore because there are only two possible outcomes:

    1) He stays with the Knicks and the hidden powers are unleashed

    2) The Knicks, the team that has given Frank Ntilikina every single minute his body could handle since he was drafted, remain ignorant to the hidden powers and he is picked up by a smart team as the prophecy has foretold. With the Spurs or whoever, the hidden powers will be unleashed.

    So either way, we’re seeing the hidden powers! Would you mind putting a very rough date on when we might see them, so I can prepare myself for the excitement?

    Of course, I’m guessing there’s a strong possibility that us ignorant folk who look at fake stats like “true shooting percentage” and “assist percentage” are never able to pick up on the hidden powers, as they remain hidden even when they are unleashed :(

    If this is the case, can you promise me you’ll let us know when the hidden powers are unleashed so we don’t miss it?

  46. Those teams say the Knicks have shown an interest in acquiring starter-level players who can help the team in the short-term and in future seasons, per sources.

    I think our best bet which would meet this criterion is Marcus and Reggie to the 76ers for Richardson/Zhaire Smith/Scott. That makes some sense for both teams. It’s been reported that the 76ers are interested in Morris and Richardson would have to be part of any trade to make #’s work.

    1: Payton, Frank
    2: Richardson, Zhaire
    3; RJ, Dotson
    4: Randle, Knox
    5: Mitch

  47. What did the Pills administration spend so much money on if we need to trade for ‘starter level players’?

    Team culture.

    They run the team the same way I play Civilization V. Try to win thru cultural domination.

  48. So Randle pouted after last night’s game, as Berman reported, and is in fact out for tonight’s game because of “personal reasons.”

    Please get rid of this chucklehead. Him and DSJ. Just get rid of them.

  49. Oh god they really want to build the Charlotte Hornets north. I just hope they don’t bring guys with terrible contracts, because then they can be fired and the next idiot up for the job gets somewhat of a clean slate.

  50. I just hope they don’t bring guys with terrible contracts, because then they can be fired and the next idiot up for the job gets somewhat of a clean slate.

    The hilarious thing about the current front office’s approach is it almost feels like a tacit admission that they’re too stupid to do anything actually smart, so they’re just doing their best to not fuck things up too badly for the next guy. That’s why they’re so unexciting and yet still so much better than Phil, Isiah, etc.

    So yeah, them deviating from that would suck.

  51. They run the team the same way I play Civilization V. Try to win thru cultural domination.

    you are weirder than I could have ever imagined

  52. Seriously, the Wooten block was INSANE!

    I would so much rather have Jowles’s “five 1RPs and six 2RPs ” and watch the:
    1: Frank-Peyton
    2: Dot-Trier-RJ
    3: RJ-Knox-Ignas
    4: Portis-Wooten
    5: Mitch

    …show. Come one, just pack up Morris, Randle, Ellington, Bullock, Portis, Taj, and Smith Jr — I mean, they are useful rotation players for some playoff teams – and attain and focus on the youth with Miller. It ain’t rocket science.

    … BUT MILLS AND PERRY ARE LAME DUCKS WHO NEED TO WIN TO SAVE FACE SO THIS HAS 0% CHANCE OF HAPPENING..

  53. I can’t find anything specific on what Randle said. Berman gives the most info in his tweet:

    Julius Randle didn’t travel with team to Utah for personal reasons. Was upset in locker room after game after being summoned to private room and didn’t talk to media. May not have Morris, Randle or Portis.

    Not sure why Portis is out unless I’m misremembering Flagrant 2 rules.

  54. i missed it what did randle say?

    Hasn’t said anything I don’t think, but Berman reported that he went into a private room after the game, was upset and didn’t talk to media afterwards, and didn’t travel for the game tonight for personal reasons. It could just as easily be a death in the family as “pouting” and it doesn’t seem like anyone actually knows anything yet.

  55. randle didn’t say anything…. he went into an office and left and looked ‘visibly upset’…

    that absolutely does not mean he was pouting…. it very well could be that he had a death in the family or whatever you can file under ‘personal reasons’…

    but trolls keep on trollin….

  56. Listen, we really don’t need to argue about Frank Ntilikina anymore

    I don’t mind arguing about Frank but people should use RPM, RAPTOR, PIPM, not PER and BPM in evaluating him. Didn’t someone here report a month or so ago that the developers of BPM said DBPM is crap and there will be a new version of BPM soon? BTW Speaking of Raptor, Frank posted a higher defensive Raptor in his rookie year than Beverley has ever posted in any season to date.

    Of course, I’m guessing there’s a strong possibility that us ignorant folk who look at fake stats like “true shooting percentage” and “assist percentage” are never able to pick up on the hidden powers, as they remain hidden even when they are unleashed :(

    You keep shifting the goalposts and setting up strawmen. Who here has ever argued that TS% is a fake stat and irrelevant to the evaluation of Frank? It’s always been unanimous that Frank needs to significantly improve his TS%. And he has so far this season made some strides in that regard. At the moment his 2FG% is 44% and his 3FG% is 33% and his TS is 50. Regarding dime%, maybe have a gander at THIS RANKING.

    So either way, we’re seeing the hidden powers! Would you mind putting a very rough date on when we might see them, so I can prepare myself for the excitement?

    I’ve already answered this several times. We’ll have a much better idea about him by the time he will be a RFA and that we need some tangible improvement in his shooting this season.

    BTW do you still believe that we should have traded Frank for a 2nd round pick at the end of last season?

  57. Who here has ever argued that TS% is a fake stat

    When people say that a player can be a great scorer with a ~.500 TS%, they’re calling it a fake stat.

  58. Berman frames it in a way that makes it sound worse on Randle’s part than we can actually confirm. He’s purposefully misleading.

    I read it that way too at first.

  59. Regarding dime%, maybe have a gander at THIS RANKING.

    I don’t love this metric because it rewards players for not shooting. The players who top the list are largely low usage players that are far from the league’s best PGs.

    You need to add asts/36 to this metric to give it context.

    That said, Frank has shown enough to warrant a 2nd contract if he doesn’t implode in the next 1.5 seasons. PGs, especially big ones, take longer to develop. His shooting does seem to be improving. As of now he’s still definitely not a PG. He should play SG or let RJ run the offense.

  60. So either way, we’re seeing the hidden powers! Would you mind putting a very rough date on when we might see them, so I can prepare myself for the excitement?

    December 10, 2022

    Of course, the polar caps will have melted so quickly by then that we won’t have time to adjust and NYC will be subject to random flooding, so all games will be played in Westchester. Meanwhile, though, I’m there on the 14th!

  61. Did anyone notice Kenny Wooten’s line yesterday for Westchester? 10 Pts, 10 Reb, 7 Blocks. Could the big club use his interior presence?

  62. So at the moment you could make a case that Frank is shooting almost as well as KP, but of course taking fewer shots? I wouldn’t be surprised if Frank eventually is a better shooter than KP.

  63. https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/1/8/21056692/oklahoma-city-thunder-chris-paul-shai-gilgeous-alexander

    The Ringer on the Thunder rebuild.

    Must be nice.

    Not sure if this post is advocating for the hybrid rebuild or lamenting the fact that we voluntarily chose SGA’s less talented teammate over him. Either interpretation is upsetting.

    Surely, every knickerblogger must have some proclivity for engaging with upsetting things, which really suggests that there really is no more perfect setting for a knickerblogger gathering than a beatdown at the hands of milwaukee… I’m in

  64. you are weirder than I could have ever imagined

    World domination via pop music and literature. War is for suckers :)

    Theater grad–>NYC street canvasser–>reality tv cameraman–>robotics programmer

    I’ve had a weird last 10 years.

  65. I don’t mind arguing about Frank but people should use RPM, RAPTOR, PIPM, not PER and BPM in evaluating him.

    I mean, whatever, it’s not like the guy shines under any metric. But surely you can see how this comes across as cherrypicking what’s best for him and insisting that everything else should be excluded, yes? Unless you prefer those models for every player and are consistent about that, the approach doesn’t make any sense.

    Who here has ever argued that TS% is a fake stat and irrelevant to the evaluation of Frank? It’s always been unanimous that Frank needs to significantly improve his TS%.

    I suppose you’re a more rational Frankophile than, um, some others, so I’m sorry if my post didn’t acknowledge that. As long as you agree the guy has to make significant, almost unprecedented, strides in order to be legitimately good, we don’t disagree on much other than the likelihood of that happening.

    As for the strides he’s made this year…color me skeptical. He’s actually shooting below his career average at the rim (53% vs 56%). His 2PT% is buoyed by him hitting 49% of his shots from the (horribly inefficient) 16-3PT range while taking 21% of his shots from that area. Perhaps you think our boy has become Dirk Nowitzki after hitting 32% and 29% from that range in his first two seasons, gotta think that’s coming down.

    Regarding dime%, maybe have a gander at THIS RANKING.

    That’s a pretty bizarre stat that, as Dink said, seems to reward anyone who keeps their FG related usage very, very low as Frank does. Why do you think it does a better job of demonstrating his value than AST%? Again, just seems like cherrypicking.

  66. I’ve already answered this several times. We’ll have a much better idea about him by the time he will be a RFA and that we need some tangible improvement in his shooting this season.

    BTW do you still believe that we should have traded Frank for a 2nd round pick at the end of last season?

    Like I’ve said plenty of times, I have absolutely no problem with playing Frank as long as he’s rostered on terrible teams. When he’s a free agent, though, we’ll have to think about what his actual value is, so to what contract would you sign him if year 4 looks a lot like years 1-3? What about if he improves, but is still far from rotation level?

    I don’t remember if I called for that specifically, but sure, I’m happy to stand by the opinion that a second rounder would have a better chance at being in the rotation on the next good Knicks team than Frank Ntilikina for a variety of reasons. As usual, I will be delighted if that turns out to be wrong.

  67. So at the moment you could make a case that Frank is shooting almost as well as KP, but of course taking fewer shots? I wouldn’t be surprised if Frank eventually is a better shooter than KP.

    The reasons I can’t get too excited about Frank’s efficiency improvement are:

    1) The 16-3PT thing I mentioned above
    2) His low usage means we aren’t getting much from the efficiency improvement. He currently ranks 59/74 in TS% among players with a USG% of 15 or lower. Being a low usage player is fine, but it does raise the standards for efficiency. So a .500 TS% is still woefully inefficient for a guy who doesn’t pass or rebound well.

  68. BTW how do you feel about the 14th at 8pm (v Milwaukee) for a Knicks drink at Eastpoint on Ave B?

    Works for me! See you there.

  69. Mills’ plan to infuriate us with his mindnumbing stupidity is working.

    i tell ya owen, i’d suggest embracing the comedic value of it all…at the end of the day, it is simply sports entertainment…hopefully there’s some other team you enjoy rooting for that isn’t a chronic failure…

    railing against knick’s management is about as useful as urinating in to a strong wind…

  70. World domination via pop music and literature. War is for suckers :)

    Theater grad–>NYC street canvasser–>reality tv cameraman–>robotics programmer

    I’ve had a weird last 10 years.

    very interesting senor dink…hopefully you let a little bit of that stuff out here from time to time…

  71. I know it’a beating a dead horse, but seriously how fucking stupid is James Dolan? Obviously he isn’t remotely intelligent, but can he really not see the extremely obvious ass-covering operation taking place before his very eyes? It’s literally being reported in the press!

    Is it just a blind loyalty thing? Like, does he think “Steve Mills would never do anything that would damage the long-term health of the team in order to make himself personally look a little better?”

  72. hahahahahahahaha…so, i wonder who the FO might just be looking at to acquire…

    i will say, it sure wouldn’t hurt to pick up a defensive center, and, a shooting point guard…

  73. I’m not saying what he’s done so far in January is sustainable, but his shot selection is improving and he’s clearly been much better from the FT line. He has a long way to go, but if he can continue making the same kind of slow small progress with his handle, penetration, passing skills, and inches forward shooting, it’s not impossible that he’s a neutral player on offense as soon as next year to go along with his plus defense. That would make him a net plus player at 22. I’d sign on for that.

    i was one of those folks clamoring to let frank go for a bag of beans at the end of last year, but, i can see his path forward in a much more positive light now…he’s demonstrated improvement on the court…at this point – i’m in agreement on the timeline above…

    i think he looks like an okay point guard next season, and by the time he hits 23, i think he could be a legit starter…at point guard…

  74. I mean, whatever, it’s not like the guy shines under any metric. But surely you can see how this comes across as cherrypicking what’s best for him and insisting that everything else should be excluded, yes? Unless you prefer those models for every player and are consistent about that, the approach doesn’t make any sense.

    Not really. The metric favorable to Frank is RPM. PIPM and RAPTOR have him much worse than RPM. If I wanted to cherry pick, I would say you should just use RPM, kind of like you implied BPM is the most relevant. More importantly though, I would say the same about the relevant metrics for players like Calderon, Kanter, Knox, Trier, Roberson.

    That’s a pretty bizarre stat that, as Dink said, seems to reward anyone who keeps their FG related usage very, very low as Frank does. Why do you think it does a better job of demonstrating his value than AST%? Again, just seems like cherrypicking.

    I used that because the site enables you to select and sort specifically 1 guards.
    I would also note that Frank’s passing percent suffered early on because the Knicks were near the bottom in terms of frequency of PnR. Randle was the playmaker. The # of PnRs have increased since Miller and Frank’s dime% has improved. Here are the cumulative splits per NBA.com:

    Last 5 Games………….30.8%
    Last 10 Games………..25.8%
    Last 15 Games…………22.5%
    Last 20 Games………..21.3%

  75. the team has done this 1 year contract thing before and they wound up not trading anyone…. deandre jordan was a prime candidate to do this for and they didn’t do anything… on top of that the front office is on notice so win totals matter to them…. i’ve said it before it’s much more likely we are looking to ‘improve’ the roster than getting picks at this stage….

  76. Steve Mills really and truly believes he put together a playoff-caliber roster that is only underperforming because of Fizdale’s coaching, and the injuries to Payton and Bulloq. This is what he is telling Jim Dolan. There is literally no doubt about this. He thinks he had an excellent off-season in which he quickly adapted to the non-acquisition of Kyrie and KD, and didn’t panic by signing max players who weren’t worth it. This is what he thinks. He thinks he moved decisively in bringing in a different coach early in the season while there was still time to salvage the competitive roster he put together.

    We still don’t know whether Dolan is buying it, but we will see in the next few weeks. It’s still the case that Pills haven’t been able to make any moves since the fan was hit, save for the essentially non-move of bringing in Blatt.

    Nothing other than whether Pills still have their power really even matters. That’s it. That’s all that matters. If they do, there’s no hope. If they don’t, there’s hope. We’ll see.

  77. Look for the Knicks to do nothing. As thenamestam pointed out, the kind of deal Knick’s management seems to want to make doesn’t seem easy to do. Doing nothing is actually ok with me. It’s not that it moves us forward, but it doesn’t move us backwards either. By the standards of Knick’s management that is a good thing. And, as I’ve said before, I’m skeptical we could find a deal out there that gets us picks, doesn’t take on long term dead salary and is better than we could do just spending the cap space next off season. I would also note that the Knicks don’t seem to have overspent on their free agents last summer since some of them seem movable in trades, so it’s not a given they will say, overspend on Morris for a long term contract.

  78. seriously…. why must we constantly talk about frank…. we are taking a microscopic and finding any trendline that is positive to make a case for progress….

    that is most likely variance…. what happened to his rapidly evaporating career highs in stls and blks? how meaningful is an increased ts% on the backs of a miniscule amount of attempts? that is a guy terrified to attempt anything but the widest gimme’s …. and he’s not even converting those efficiently… that’s not progress…. that’s someone limiting himself even further to stick on an nba court.. that’s why once or twice a game everyone is jumping his first pass over half court… because he’s not looking to do anything except give up the ball to the one or two options he has so that they can do something with it….

    and what is so meaningful about assist%? that a guy passes a lot relative to his shots and fts?

    i don’t get it…. there’s much more interesting things to talk about…. this is the same story as knox and ppl already seemed to have let it go … why aren’t so many fans backing him? he’s younger! he’s actually showed microscopic improvements that might actually (but probably not) be meaningful….

    this is one of the weirdest internet phenomena’s in knick history….

  79. Putting on my tinfoil hat…based off the chatter going around that they’re not looking to move Mook coupled with the bit of information from Berman’s article regarding Randle maybe they’ve decided:

    1. They’re impressed enough with Morris plus his public statements that he wants to stay in NY that they plan to re-sign him and decided some combination of Morris, Knox and RJ fit better alongside Mitch than Randle
    2. They’ve found a willing trade partner for Randle hence the post-game chat in a private room and him looking upset and not talking to the media after. also could explain his unavailability for tonight’s game?

  80. All right we got TNFH, Rama, and Zack the Lawyer (I forget his screen name but I talked to him off line) for Tuesday, Jan 14th at 8pm at Eastpoint (25 Ave B) for Knicks-Bucks. Any one else in the NY area feel free to come by.

  81. Not sure if this post is advocating for the hybrid rebuild or lamenting the fact that we voluntarily chose SGA’s less talented teammate over him. Either interpretation is upsetting.

    All of that.

    Who here wouldn’t want to trade places with the Thunder? They’ve got two of my favorite players (Paul & Gallo), the stud we should have drafted (SGA) and probably more draft picks than we used over the last 20 years. Oh and they’re 21-16.

  82. Putting on my tinfoil hat…based off the chatter going around that they’re not looking to move Mook coupled with the bit of information from Berman’s article regarding Randle maybe they’ve decided:

    1. They’re impressed enough with Morris plus his public statements that he wants to stay in NY that they plan to re-sign him and decided some combination of Morris, Knox and RJ fit better alongside Mitch than Randle
    2. They’ve found a willing trade partner for Randle hence the post-game chat in a private room and him looking upset and not talking to the media after. also could explain his unavailability for tonight’s game?

    Other than an illness in his family I thought part 2 might be spot on.

    Part 1… i think is a result of management asking a high price for Morris and an enterprising interested FO trying to put some heat on the Knicks FO through the media…. they have 3 weeks til the trade deadline to extract value in a good negotiation.

  83. Guys, you need to chill about all this Twitter chatter re: the Knicks not trading Morris. I mean, isn’t that what they should be saying? It’s not going to stop other GM’s from making offers.

    Now of course, if they end up keeping Morris, then I’m giving Pills way too much credit for being shrewd negotiators. Color me naive I guess.

  84. I do hope they at least trade either Randle or Morris, and obviously my preference would be Morris, as Randle is younger, under contract and has more potential. If they just keep Morris or even worse, keep everyone, then well, any positive ideas people might still hold over Perry are gone, they’re simply stupid and we shouldn’t expect them to understand how to build a team.

    They’re less dangerous than the Phil Jacksons of the world because they’re not actively making terrible franchise crippling moves, but not making any moves is a sign they’re just less dangerous idiots.

  85. seriously…. why must we constantly talk about frank

    uh… I made a joke in the game thread about Frank hitting 50 TS. DRed followed up with a one-liner today about it and I mentioned RPM and implied that it very well could just be noise. That was it. A total of 2 sentences. But Noble couldn’t let it stand and jumped in with his usual elongated tedious diatribe about Frank. I just responded to him. I agree that it’s better to just wait but if I’m forced to respond I have to cite the stats available at the present time. I realize you and Noble would be devastated if Frank continues to improve and actively root against that. Maybe the two of you are the ones who should just chill.

    don’t get it…. there’s much more interesting things to talk about…. this is the same story as knox and ppl already seemed to have let it go … why aren’t so many fans backing him? he’s younger! he’s actually showed microscopic improvements that might actually (but probably not) be meaningful….

    It’s not that complicated. Defense and elite offense matter much more in the playoffs versus the regular season. Knox has slow feet and slow reaction time which make him one of the worst defenders in the league. Those are things which are unlikely to improve. He’d be singled out and destroyed in the playoffs like a baby antelope on the serengeti. And it’s not like he’s tearing it up on offense but even if he were he’d have to be incredibly productive to offset his atrocious defense.

    We’ve watched Frank be a game changer many times on defense. I mentioned his rookie year Raptor defensive rating being higher than the Raptor defensive ratings of Beverley for the past 5 seasons. It’s more likely that Frank improves his shooting to a respectable enough level than Knox improves enough on both defense and offense to be useful in the playoffs.

  86. I don’t mind arguing about Frank but people should use RPM, RAPTOR, PIPM, not PER and BPM in evaluating him.

    IMO, all one number models are well intended garbage!

    If you insist on using a model like that, imo what you want to do is understand the types of players each model undervalues or overvalues (high usage inefficient scorers, rebounders, efficient low usage scorers, very good/bad man defenders, offensive rebounding put backs, guys that get deflections, spacing, etc…)

    All of these models are reasonably good at valuing most players, but they fail badly at many of the exceptions where a guy is especially good or bad at some things. They are missing many things and they can’t handle the impact of role, system, coach, teammates, style of play etc..

    Once you kind of understand how each model works and what it’s missing or overrates, you can subjectively adjust the rating to the profile of the player.

    No one is going to be 100% correct, but it’s obvious Frank is much better than PER suggests because scoring is too heavily weighted on that model, somewhat better than WS48/BPM because they don’t measure individual defense very well and exclude some stats that are publicly available but not in the standard boxscores that Frank scores well on.

    So if saying Frank is a mildly negative net player at his stage upsets your boat because you want to believe he sucks, want to believe your favorite model is infallible, have been arguing he sucks and will never be good and don’t want to admit you could be wrong, enjoy yourself. You ARE simply wrong.

    What’s happening on the court is reality.

    Stats are just our inadequate attempt to help measure it.

    Frank has been OK and is getting better at a lot of things. He’s not far away from being net plus player. Maybe next year.

  87. seriously…. why must we constantly talk about frank

    Because most actual Knicks fans like the guy and are rooting for him. (And because huge factions of the Knick fanbase really like defense and he’s really good at it.)

    It’s typical for NBA fans to root for likable guys that their team drafted.

  88. I root for Frank, I just can do that while recognizing he’s a bad player. Damn I rooted for fucking alleged rapist Derrick Rose while acknowledging he is very likely a piece of shit and was a terrible player for us.

    The worse thing about sports is when this type of argument comes, the “true fans” argument. Fuck that shit, we’re all free to choose how we want to support our favorite teams.

  89. I made a joke in the game thread about Frank hitting 50 TS. DRed followed up with a one-liner today about it and I mentioned RPM and implied that it very well could just be noise. That was it. A total of 2 sentences. But Noble couldn’t let it stand and jumped in with his usual elongated tedious diatribe about Frank.

    Actually posts 62, 64, and 67 are all about Frank and, as you can see, were posted before I said a word about the guy. I’m not sure I’ve ever brought Frank up unprompted, largely because I find the topic to be rather dull for the reasons djphan outlined. Outside of extraordinary scenarios, he’s pretty simply an open-and-shut draft bust. Even his good outcomes involve him becoming a kind of player that’s often available in the second round, cheap on the free agency market, etc. So I don’t feel very strongly about the guy one way or the other.

    What I do care about is the same people constantly saying that only the truly enlightened basketball observers can see that the -4.0 career BPM guy has untapped potential the likes of which we’ve never seen. That shit gets annoying, especially when the dialogue on here is usually so stellar.

    Believe me, I’d much rather talk about Mitch, RJ, the 2020 draft, Morris trade scenarios, potential free agent targets, or hell, even Randle. I think all of those topics are more relevant to the Knicks’ future than Frank Ntilikina.

    But yeah, I do have a bit of a thing where I feel the need to respond to bad, smug takes, and that’s true whether the topic is Frank Ntilikina or anything else.

  90. What I do care about is the same people constantly saying that only the truly enlightened basketball observers can see that the -4.0 career BPM guy has untapped potential the likes of which we’ve never seen. That shit gets annoying,

    Nobody has ever said that or anything like it and the fact that it would make you so annoyed is really your issue to deal with, not ours. Pretty much every “bad, smug take” you’ve responded to is a take no one has made. They’re all straw men.

    When you see a guy making a stupid purchase at the grocery store or the shoe store, do you go up to him and remind him that the Nikes or the lettuce is on sale?

    Let’s say everyone is wrong about Frank. They aren’t, but let’s say they are. So what? No one here is the GM of the team, no one here has any decision making power over the team’s roster, so why would it matter to you so much if they’re all wrong? Or let’s say there’s a fan who ranks players mostly on the pointz they score. Who cares if that person exists? So what? It’s beyond your powers to just let the guy enjoy following the sport and the team the way he wants?

  91. Let’s say everyone is wrong about Frank. They aren’t, but let’s say they are. So what? No one here is the GM of the team, no one here has any decision making power over the team’s roster, so why would it matter to you so much if they’re all wrong? Or let’s say there’s a fan who ranks players mostly on the pointz they score. Who cares if that person exists? So what? It’s beyond your powers to just let the guy enjoy following the sport and the team the way he wants?

    Very compelling argument for no one here ever responding to anything anyone else says, with every poster simply using the board as a kind of personal diary on the topic of their Knicks fandom. Bold vision!

  92. Let’s say everyone is wrong about Frank. They aren’t, but let’s say they are. So what? No one here is the GM of the team, no one here has any decision making power over the team’s roster, so why would it matter to you so much if they’re all wrong? Or let’s say there’s a fan who ranks players mostly on the pointz they score. Who cares if that person exists? So what? It’s beyond your powers to just let the guy enjoy following the sport and the team the way he wants?

    i n s i g h t

  93. the more I think on this new KB development, the more I think djphan is right: we’re being trolled

  94. So what? No one here is the GM of the team, no one here has any decision making power over the team’s roster, so why would it matter to you so much if they’re all wrong? Or let’s say there’s a fan who ranks players mostly on the pointz they score. Who cares if that person exists? So what?

    Nobody cares about that person existing. We just don’t want them wasting everyone’s time by posting here.

  95. You should go on r/chess and make an aggressive, incisive post about how 1. f3 is actually the best chess opening for white. Most of the people on that board are not GMs or IMs. Who cares?

  96. Giannis called me on the phone yesterday and told me:
    “i’m coming to the knicks Only under one condition. Only if they tank for 10 years in a row!”
    I instantly woke up terrified but drooling….

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