The Charlie Ward Curse Is Over! Mitchell Robinson Resigns for 4 Years/$60 Million

It sounds like the delay on Mitch returning was Masai making a late push to sign him, but Mitch ultimately stuck with his Plan A, which was reported days ago, of coming back to the Knick for four years and $60 million.

I am pumped, of course. Spending money in this offseason and then extending RJ and resigning Mitch always made the most sense if the Knicks weren’t going to rebuild, so Rose going the opposite direction last year always puzzled me, but at least Rose knows well enough to pivot, and here we are with Brunson, Mitch and Hart, the best trio of Knick free agents…ever?

My biggest problem last year was that the Knicks couldn’t be satisfied with the team they had, and the moves suggested that they were (coupled with a general, “Maybe someone good will come later?”), while these moves are, “We gotta change our ways,” and I like that.

The Knicks had not resigned any player that they drafted to a second contract since Charlie Ward’s second Knick deal, over thirty years ago (they reacquired THJ and kept David Lee and Nate Robinson for the rarely used qualifying offer season of their rookie deal, but never an extension or second contract at the close of the first), so this is major Knick history.

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154 thoughts to “The Charlie Ward Curse Is Over! Mitchell Robinson Resigns for 4 Years/$60 Million”

  1. (repost) Brunson is easy to underestimate because of his appearance. But he’s 25 years old and his play during the last two years is already better than any year in Felton’s career. He’s not CP3 or Dame, but he can be every bit as good as Lowry, FVV or other short small wingspan PGs who think the game on a high level and have enough skill to make teams pay for underestimating him. He’s really, really good and has room to get even better if he can be a more consistent 3-pt shooter. I think he has been hurt more than helped by Doncic and he’s gonna make believers out of Knicks fans in very short order as he evolves into the unquestioned leader of the team. And there is no doubt in my mind that he will be just that, and if Julius doesn’t go along with it, he will be dumped.

  2. I want to love Brunson. And, Cyber, I do respect his playoff run. I just hope it’s sustainable.

    Totally fair. After seeing Randle return to a pumpkin last season, i’ll only believe Brunson is for real when he’s doing it with a Knicks jersey on.

    Also, I’m in Hamburg at the moment where the signing of Herr Hartenstein has made us some new Knicks fans — and earned me some free beers ;-)

    Holy cow, in Hamburg people giving free beers means you’ll be drunk sooner than later. ;D

  3. Happy for Mitch. Will be catching a ton of lobs from JB over the next 4 yrs. Will also feast on offensive rebounding from poor defensive clubs when his man is forced to go contest JB and RJ entering the paint.

    Has to improve his defensive rebounding by getting stronger, meaner and feistier when battling down there over the next four years. If he does that, next contract will double this one. Hopes he just stays healthy and plays a few 70+ game seasons in a row.

  4. I’ve said from the beginning that Leon Rose was gonna have a learning curve until he determined which voices on his Team of Rivals to listen to and until he made some mistakes to learn from. Clearly he is settling in to the POBO role and is no longer making rookie mistakes.

    Hopefully this will put an end to the “rudderless mess” narrative. There’s still lots of work to do to build a contender but there is clearly a plan and there is clearly a good deal of success in executing that plan. Sure, it’t not the “tear it down to the studs and acquire a bunch of top of the lottery picks” kind of rebuild that some folks have been clamoring for, but ther is zero doubt that we are better positioned for building a sustained winner in the future right at this second than we have been since the Ewing era. Maybe there will be less “if we lose this guy for nothing…” or “if we miss out on this guy in free agency…” stuff now, for at least a few months anyway.

  5. Don’t have to change my avatar!

    Pretty stoked. People can argue over how much surplus there will be with this deal but the bottom line is that Mitch is a player I love to watch. If Masai wanted him that is a bonus.

  6. Brunson isn’t going to explode by people like Murray, but he’s got a quick enough first step and the finesse and handle to get by people.

    He’s a killer from midrange. If Felton ever had Brunson’s touch, nobody would complain about him. Brunson beats much taller players in the post.

    He’s heavy, but in a good way. He’s muscle, Felton was fat. Brunson does a good job of body bodying up bigger guards and moving them off their spots. He’ll never be all-defense, but a solid team defender gets you pretty far.

    He’s had several good years now and plays better without Luka. Less likely to pull a Julius.

  7. Great to see Mitch get paid like this, coming from a tough background with so little… he works really hard and deserves it.

    Now work on those free throws!

  8. RJ could learn a thing or two from Brunson. Brunson uses his strength to get position and slows down to hit the layup. RJ flies at the basket so fast that the layups end up wild.

  9. I still don’t really see a plan, actually. What exactly is the plan? I see a team that is nowhere close to contention, but probably won’t be bad enough to get an intriguing pick. I also don’t see a clear path out of that mess. It seems to be there’s a very good chance we’ll be picking 9-11th again.

    I don’t know what you want me to do, I’m not going to preemptively give Leon Rose credit for getting us out of that mess. You have to actually, you know, do it.

    I support the Brunson signing because I think signing good, young players is one of the best bets you can make in the NBA almost regardless of your position on the win curve. I support re-signing Mitch for the same reason.

    How those moves fit into a larger plan is another story. I mean, right now our projected starting lineup has three players who are either below-average shooters (RJ and Randle) or non-shooters (Mitch). We’re not going anywhere with that shit, so Rose still has a lot of his own mess to clean up before he’s owed much credit.

  10. Yeah, me giving credit to Rose for essentially conceding his previous offseason sucked really doesn’t prove anything. It just hit the bare minimum requirement I had going into this offseason that he had to show that he knew that the team had to change. So I’m giving him credit for that, but he then has to do something more next year.

    If anything, this actually supports a description of rudderless, as the swing from offseaaon to offseason has been so dramatic.

  11. Pluses:
    1. Significantly upgraded PG
    2. Better backup C (since Noel offered close to zero),
    3. Very young with a lot of upside.
    4. Contracts that will be coming off the books (Rose, Reddish) or easier to move next year (Fournier)
    5. Boatload of excess 1st round picks if any trade opportunities come up
    6. Very good bench

    Minuses:
    1. No true #1 option unless RJ break outs significantly efficiency wise
    2. Randle/Obi situation
    2. Spacing

    Main Hopes:
    1. The addition of a PG that can penetrate and dish takes the ball out of Randle’s hands, leads to better ball movement, higher efficiency for Randle, RJ, and Fournier and more lobs for Mitch
    2. Obi expands his offense to be more consistent from 3, adds more off the dribble and improves his D further
    3. RJ ups his FT%, finishes better at the rim, and makes better shot and dish decisions
    4. Cam starts putting it together and can be used in a trade or becomes a useful piece
    5. Mitch hits is FTs and stays heathy
    6. Thibs is a little more flexible with rotations and lineups
    7. Grimes breaks out and takes the starting spot from Fournier
    8. Quick is more consistent this year and penetrates better.
    9. If Obi shows he can be a more versatile stretch 4, move on from Randle

    I’m sure I missed a lot important stuff, but off the top of my head this covers a lot of it.

  12. Woj: “Once the San Antonio Spurs finalize the expected release on forward Danilo Gallinari, his preference is to join the Boston Celtics upon clearing waivers, sources tell ESPN.”

    Oh well. Can’t root for the Rooster in his farewell season.

  13. Well tnfh I give you credit for sticking to your guns. It takes a special loyalty to one’s own narrative to be a wet blanket at this time of cautious optimism for most.

  14. I hope now that they’ve been “paid,” that Brunson and Mitch don’t lose their focus/edge/work ethic or whatever it is that sometimes happens to players. I don’t think Brunson will, but Mitch worries me a bit. Still, I’m glad they retained him. There are quite a few young players to root for.

    Moving Randle or RJ seems like an imperative at this time.

    FWIW, I don’t think it is hypocritical to root for a Knicks team with Derrick Rose on it while also expressing disgust with the Miles Bridges of the world. I continue to hope that the team will deal Rose away, but Thibs probably wants to keep him.

  15. LET’S GOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Is this what it feels like when your front office actually has a plan and then follows through and executes on it? BING MOTHER EFFING BONG BOYS!!!!!!

  16. Also thanks for posting that Jalen vid last thread Frank, there were some really great points, I think he will thrive as the primary playmaker here

  17. I would actually be surprised if this offseason has changed anyone’s mind drastically for all the reasons BC mentioned. We haven’t materially changed our position.

    We’ve gotten a bit younger and that’s definitely good, though it was so obvious it was the direction we should’ve gone in it’s a bit hard for me to break my arm patting Leon Rose on the back for realizing it 2.5 years after he was hired.

    Again, it seems you want people to give Leon Rose credit for things that have not occurred. If next offseason we pick 11th again, and a superstar trade doesn’t materialize out of nowhere, do we still have to give him credit? How long does “we’re decently positioned to make one trade if the opportunity arises” buy him? He was the one that chose that path over the certainty associated with the draft!

  18. Probably a bit of an overpay for Mitch but this franchise is never going anywhere until we can draft and keep good players and I’m glad he’s back

  19. “He’s not CP3 or Dame, but he can be every bit as good as Lowry, FVV or other short small wingspan PGs who think the game on a high level and have enough skill to make teams pay for underestimating him.”

    I like the Lowry comp, Z-man, and if Brunson follows his career arc (without the late career injury problems) we’ll be thrilled with his contract.

  20. “Brian Cronin
    July 1, 2022 at 11:35 am
    Yeah, me giving credit to Rose for essentially conceding his previous offseason sucked really doesn’t prove anything. It just hit the bare minimum requirement I had going into this offseason that he had to show that he knew that the team had to change. So I’m giving him credit for that, but he then has to do something more next year.

    If anything, this actually supports a description of rudderless, as the swing from offseaaon to offseason has been so dramatic.”

    There really hasn’t been a swing at all, just better execution than last year. The plan all along has been to field a relatively competitive product while making incremental improvements through the draft, trades and free agency. I understand not liking the Burks, Kemba, Rose, Noel, and Taj signings, but they were all short-term placeholder deals that were undone without any harm to the plan going forward. The Julius signing was almost universally praised at the time. They prudently waited on committing long-term to Mitch (although I think it was an overpay, it was smarter than locking him up on the blind coming off of a serious injury and three injury-prone seasons).

    More importantly, there are two more good, young players on the roster, plus an intriguing 18yo second-rounder. We have even more first round draft capital than we had last year. We don’t have any aging max players eating up $50+M in cap space as was feared my so many here. If we have to, we can sweeten deals to get rid of Julius and Fournier just like Morey sweetened deals to get rid of Lin, etc.

    The really big splashes obviously still have to be made (as I’ve said all along) and they could still screw those up. But I truly don’t get the “no plan” narrative.

  21. “thenoblefacehumper
    I still don’t really see a plan, actually. What exactly is the plan?”

    I usually agree with you, but today I see improvement that has definite shape and consistency. The Knicks got better and younger (again). On top of that, signing Jalen Brunson should put a dagger through the heart of point-Randle once and for all (if only bc of money and probably more than drafting Ivey would have done bc: rookie). Signing Hartenstein gives us a center who can shoot a 3.

    IQ, Obi, Grimes, and especially Sims are no doubt working their asses off right now to earn minutes when the time comes. Fournier better be working out too (haha). Reddish? Deuce? I would watch any of those guys play. There is no Burks, no Kemba, no Bullock, no Payton to (obviously) get in the way. Fournier and Rose are the last remnants of that kind of player, and I hope each guy wins some games for us down the stretch. I like it.

  22. “There really hasn’t been a swing at all, just better execution than last year. The plan all along has been to field a relatively competitive product while making incremental improvements through the draft, trades and free agency.”

    Yeah the problem with this is a number of NBA rules render it the “have your cake and eat it too” plan. Currently, it is doing exactly what a basic perusal of those rules would lead one to believe it would do–making the team good enough to not add elite talent through the draft, but not good enough to win so much as a first-round series.

    You seem to want people to give Leon Rose credit *before that changes.* I don’t get that. Right now his “plan” is resulting in the exact poor results people have said this “plan” would result in for years. The critics are winning.

    If Leon Rose pulls off a big move, or moves, that make us a contender, I ain’t going anywhere ruru style. I will be here, happily eating my crow. I will simply repeat, however, it has not happened, and does not appear close to happening.

  23. Building a team is a multi year process no matter how you do it.

    Here’s the difference.

    You can draft very young players looking for your starting PG, hope you find one, and develop him over years. Check box 1.

    You can let someone else do it that way, offer over100m to play for you, and steal him. lmao Check box 1.

    It’s more expensive the 2nd way, but it’s faster. You’ll have to pay that drafted player anyway and perhaps before you know what he’s worth. You can’t “pay” for every player, but if you try to draft every player you will strike out a lot and have to wait many years until you find 2-3 main pieces and develop them all.

    If you are drafting players, trading when appropriate, and signing free agents INTELLIGENTLY (it’s always about competence) you can move faster. We have some boxes checked now and we are waiting on the development of RJ, Obi, Mitch, Quick, Grimes etc… while we continue to try to check more boxes.

    It was always going to be a multi year thing. Be Patient. No major errors were made and we took a step forward.

  24. let this be evidence – now and forever – that man can i get shit completely wrong…

    i was pretty sure mitch wasn’t coming back, and, i was 100% WRONG…

  25. We’re a 500 team in the two seasons while Rose has been in charge. All while adding and developing young players, adding extra picks and not signing any horrifically bad contracts. Emphasis on “horrific.”

    I get some people want the full tear down rebuild. But it ain’t happening. This is as good of a plan as we’ve had in years.

    And one knock is that Rose has been too careful but I really appreciate that he has hedged his bets by trading down for extra picks that he can then use to shed contracts if they aren’t working out. He’s been able to shed some of the vets without leaving us with no picks. So when people complain about attaching second rounders I’m like “you mean the ones we picked up when we traded down?”

    He’s given himself wiggle room to operate and fix mistakes, which is unlike anything we have ever done in the last 20 years.I would say instead of focusing on this draft pick or free agent signing that you think was a mistake, take a step back and look at the general trend of what Rose has done. He’s gotten us young, added picks and kept us flexible to make moves.

    The team is way younger now that it was at the start of the season. The only players older than 26 are Randle, Fournier, Rose and Taj. That’s pretty incredible if you ask me.

  26. “thenoblefacehumper
    July 1, 2022 at 11:27 am
    I still don’t really see a plan, actually. What exactly is the plan? I see a team that is nowhere close to contention, but probably won’t be bad enough to get an intriguing pick. I also don’t see a clear path out of that mess. It seems to be there’s a very good chance we’ll be picking 9-11th again.”

    Yep. This team has a ceiling of like 45 wins and absent someone taking a huge, unexpected leap we have no way of significantly improving plus there’s been several reports that we’re negotiating with RJ on an extension so we’ll be way over the cap for the foreseeable future. It’s a team that should be consistently better than any other time in the last 2 decades but I don’t see how it competes for even a top 4 seed in the East.

  27. “We’re a 500 team in the two seasons while Rose has been in charge. All while adding and developing young players, adding extra picks and not signing any horrifically bad contracts. Emphasis on “horrific.””

    Being a .500 team is mostly a bad thing, and we very well might have the single worst contract in the NBA.

  28. The problem is the 20-21 season was such a pleasant surprise that it made people super impatient and pissed off when we regressed last year. But big picture has been positive overall since Rose took over and that has always been what I’ve been trying to highlight.

    For me the goal is not a championship. Obviously I want that. But you almost always have to have a top 5 player on your team or several top 20 players (or a top 5 and top 20) in order to win and those are not easy to get. You can literally draft in the top 5 of the lottery for 10 straight years and not get a player like that.

    The other path is to build a really good and competitive team that is young, has draft picks and flexibility to sign free agents or make trades. Become a consistent playoff team and then strike if you can.

    As a fan I jsut want to team to be good with the hopes that they can get better. I do not want championship or tank. I’m too old for that shit and honestly, the actual number of teams that have done that and won it all later down the road is far less than people who advocate for that make it seem like it is.

  29. We have some good nuts and bolts here, but have no chrome and leather. Brunson is a fine player, and he has shown he can be a solid contributor on a good team, and I like the signing, and I also like the Hartenstein signing as well.

    You really need stars to win in this league though, and we don’t have any of those. I would be looking to move RJ as the centerpiece of a deal that brings back a star.

  30. Being a .500 team is mostly a bad thing, and we very well might have the single worst contract in the NBA.

    That is your opinion because you think we have to have top 5 lottery picks in order to be good.. Being 500 is literally the definition of being average.

    Being bad is mostly a bad thing.

    And Randle is not the worst contract in the NBA. Not by far.

  31. I agree that there is definitely a plan here. Whether it is a real good one or not is debatable, but given who owns the team, this might be about the best we can realistically hope for. TNFH may be right that the team ends up stuck in late lottery purgatory if no further big moves are forthcoming.

    Hopefully moving Randle is also part of the plan and will soon come to fruition without giving up too much as sweeteners. Another shooter or two would also be nice. Actually, Gallinari might be a good fit if Boston doesn’t work out for him.

  32. The critics are winning.

    In your opinion they are. In my opinion, they are not. The team is 500 in 2 seasons while adding young talent, developing them, signing free agents who are young and address specific needs and upgrades the team needs, adding draft picks and remaining flexible to strike on a big deal WHEN THE RIGHT ONE COMES ALONG.

    This is what I don’t get. You want the patience of a complete tear down tank job but don’t give the same patience to a different approach.

    So you’re cool being patient with a 3 to 5 year tank job but you aren’t cool with a 3 or 4 year multifaceted approach for what reasons exactly?

  33. saw the stuff miles bridges’ partner posted…just heartbreaking, domestic violence is such a huge sin…the poor little kid talking about the situation, heartbreaking and infuriating…

    hopefully bridges gets a time out in an orange jumpsuit, and also gets some help…so many women and children in the world endure this same experience…when it’s someone wealthy/”important” committing these crimes it becomes even clearer just how horrible and pervasive an issue this is:
    I won’t allow the people around him to continue to silence me and continue to lie to protect this person.

    if this goes back to the hornets’ organization, i hope there is some justice, and change…

  34. The Knicks’ draft picks over the course of the Charlie Ward Curse (now counting picks they traded for on draft night), broken on July 1, 2022.

    2000 – Donnell Harvey (traded on draft night for Erick Strickland)
    2000 – Lavor Postell (Let go after his first contract)
    2001 – Michael Wright (Never played for Knicks)
    2001 – Eric Chenowith (Never played for Knicks)
    2002 – Nenê Hilário (Traded on draft night with Marcus Camby for Antonio McDyess, one of the worst Knick trades of all-time)
    2002 – Frank Williams (Traded in part of Jamal Crawford deal)
    2002 – Milos Vujanic (Never played for Knicks)
    2003 – Mike Sweetney (Traded with two future lottery picks for Eddy Curry, also one of the worst Knick trades of all-time)
    2003 – Maciej Lampe (Traded as part of the Stephon Marbury deal)
    2003 – Slavko Vraneš (Waived before ever playing for Knicks)
    2004 – Trevor Ariza (Traded for Steve Francis, at least an honorable mention for one of the worst Knick trades of all-time)
    2005 – Channing Frye(Traded for Zach Randolph)
    2005 – Nate Robinson (Finished out rookie contract qualifying offer year, then signed elsewhere)
    2005 – David Lee (Finished out rookie contract qualifying offer year, then traded to Warriors)
    2005 – Dijon Thompson (Traded for Quentin Richardson)
    2006 – Renaldo Balkman (Traded in minor deal)
    2006 – Mardy Collins (Traded to help dump Zach Randolph)
    2007 – Wilson Chandler (Traded in the Carmelo Anthony deal)
    2007 – Demetris Nichols (Waived)
    2008 – Danilo Gallinari (Also traded in Melo deal)
    2009 – Jordan Hill (Traded to help clear out cap room to theoretically sign Lebron James and another max free agent)
    2009 – Toney Douglas (Traded as part of a deal for Marcus Camby)
    2010 – Andy Rautins (Traded as part of sign and trade for Tyson Chandler)
    2010 – Landry Fields (Signed away by Toronto Raptors)
    2010 – Jerome Jordan (Traded in Marcus Camby deal)
    2011 – Iman Shumpert (Traded to dump J.R. Smith’s contract to free up cap space to sign…Aron Afflalo and Derrick Williams?!)
    2011 – Josh Harrelson (Also traded in Marcus Camby deal)
    2012 – Kostas Papanikolaou (Traded in Raymond Felton and Kurt Thomas return deal)
    2013 – Tim Hardaway Jr. (Traded to draft Jerian Grant)
    2014 – Cleanthony Early (Tricky, as he technically got a second contract by the Knicks after missing most of his second season due to injury, but was waived a few days later, so I don’t count it, as I think we’re really looking for guaranteed second contracts, ya know? Real second deals)
    2014 – Thanasis Antetokounmpo (Waived by the Knicks)
    2014 – Louis Labeyrie (Never played for Knicks. Draft rights actually just traded away earlier this year)
    2015 – Kristaps Porzingis (Traded to free up space to theoretically sign Kevin Durant and another max free agent)
    2015 – Jerian Grant (Traded in deal for Derrick Rose)
    2015 – Willy Hernangómez (Traded to Charlotte for two second rounders)
    2017 – Frank Ntilikina (Not resigned)
    2017 – Damyean Dotson(Not resigned)
    2017 – Ognjen Jaramaz (Never played for the Knicks)
    2018 – Kevin Knox (Traded with a pick for Cam Reddish)
    2018 – Mitchell Robinson (Re-signed with Knicks for 4 years/$60 million)

    The curse is over!

  35. We are not locked into this roster, and/or into us being a first round out every year, even if we extend RJ. RJ could continue to improve and become an all star. Randle could get his head out of his ass and either help this team or become attractive again in a trade. Obi or Quickley or Grimes could take leaps. Cam could learn how to play basketball. The team could make more trades. Etc.

    Will most of these things happen? Probably not. Will none of them happen? Also probably not. This is the team for now. It will be more functional and entertaining to watch than last years team. It’s not nearly enough, but it’s an improvement.

  36. “So you’re cool being patient with a 3 to 5 year tank job but you aren’t cool with a 3 or 4 year multifaceted approach for what reasons exactly?”

    This is an incredibly easy question to answer. If you rebuild through the draft for 3 to 5 years, you at least have the opportunity to add elite talent during each one of those years. Of course you might miss on the pick(s), but you will almost certainly at least have a chance.

    If you “rebuild” through the “hybrid” method, that opportunity is taken completely out of your hands. You have hope an elite player(s) demands a trade, hope you have the assets to pull off such a trade even though you haven’t prioritized accumulating them, hope the player wants to come to you team, and hope the opposing team prefers your package.

    As Leon Rose is finding out, this is simply not a situation you can will into existence.

  37. You left out whatever happened to Jerian Grant himself, Brian. But my god. What a mansion of sadness that list is.

  38. If we go like 43-39 and lose in the first round, is swift gonna have to pretend he’s TOTALLY PSYCHED about that outcome in order to maintain the bit?

  39. If we go like 43-39 and lose in the first round, is swift gonna have to pretend he’s TOTALLY PSYCHED about that outcome in order to maintain the bit?

    You mean if we make the playoffs again, second time in three seasons, while still having a team full of young players, 11 first round picks over the next 7 seasons and moveable contracts that will allow us to potentially build on that team?

    Yup. I will be fine with that. No pretending needed.

  40. “ Fournier better be working out too (haha)”

    Garcon! More wine, si vous plait…

  41. “Will most of these things happen? Probably not. Will none of them happen? Also probably not. This is the team for now. It will be more functional and entertaining to watch than last years team. It’s not nearly enough, but it’s an improvement.”

    Yeah I agree. We’ve been trying the “have your cake and eat it too” approach for basically my entire life and it has predictably failed spectacularly. This front office is trying it too, but they’re bette at it than past front offices.

    The problem is I think it’s a bad plan with a very low success rate no matter how well you execute it, but we’ll see! Nothing I’d be happier to be wrong about.

  42. Brian, if you weren’t the moderator, I would suggest that you be banned for posting that historical shit list of Knicks draft picks. (-:

    It’s like going back and reviewing all the Supreme Court decisions over the past year

  43. you at least have the opportunity to add elite talent

    Or you can be like The Kings and miss out on elite talent every single season.

    Seriously, the people who advocate this approach just brush over the man examples of teams that have done that (intentionally or not) and not gone anywhere. Not to bring jowles into this back and forth but he tried to use Minny as an example of a team that has now tanked themselves into a bright future when they literally before last season had picked in the lottery like 13 out of the last 15 drafts.

  44. You left out whatever happened to Jerian Grant himself, Brian. But my god. What a mansion of sadness that list is.

    That’s the tricky part. Is Nate a Knick first round pick if the Suns drafted him and traded him to the Knicks? Is Grant a Knick first round pick if the Wizards drafted him and traded him to the Knicks? I’ll add an addendum for picks they dealt for.

  45. “Or you can be like The Kings and miss out on elite talent every single season.”

    I literally said this in the damn post. It’s not fool-proof. It requires a lot of skill and a lot of luck. In a 30 team league in which wins are a zero sum resource, no one has “solved” building a contender.

    It’s just better than “don’t do much of anything and hope a trade for a star that doesn’t leave you too asset barren to compete after materializes.”

  46. We should all go buy some Mitch Please merch from KFTV(I think it’s them) to celebrate.

    This makes me happy. I am higher on Mitch than most. He adds incredible value to our defense..no shot is safe with him on the floor even out to the 3pt line. And that’s a regular thing for him. Plus he gets back to rebound because he’s stupid athletic for a guy his size.

  47. btw I don’t care whether people “praise” Leon or not. I just think that a lot of the criticism is way over the top, including some on this thread. Leon never promised that we’d be a contending team by 2022-23. He made some mistakes in his first two years in execution (and Thibs was a mistake that still needs to be addressed) but he seems to have learned from them. More importantly, he’s avoided the ego-driven big splash moves that his predecessors (and many new GMs) tended to make and has actually stuck to his plan.

    When he hired Thibs, any hope of a high lottery pick-driven rebuild went out the window. Yet we now have a roster full of players 25 or younger, and we aren’t necessarily even done with this offseason yet. We also have all of our own first rounders and 4 additional ones.

    He did what most here wanted this offseason. Unloaded market-value vets at minimal cost. Used the cap space to sign Brunson outright, outmaneuvering Cuban in the process. Re-signed Mitch to a market-value (?) deal. Picked up a young back-up C at a great price. Stockpiled first rounders for big moves in the future. Drafted an 18yo with upside.

    I guess after all that, if folks want to keep saying “yeah, but how is he going to get a star or two without top-3 draft picks?” well that’s true for lots of teams. And even when you have the stars via the draft or otherwise, there are no guarantees, and luck is often the determinant of the way things go. Look at the Nets. Or Minny, Or CHI. Or POR. Or DAL. Or UTA. TOR has no easy path to getting back to the finals even with the great Masai at the helm. The Warriors’ big 3 are all non-top of lottery picks. PHX built a winner on the backs of Booker and Mikal, who were not picked at the top of the lottery. MIL lucked into Giannis. DEN lucked into Jokic. Pat Riley has made a billion mistakes as big as any Leon has made.

  48. Having a few seasons where we win like 42-47 games and get bounced in the first round is a lot better than what we’ve had here for the last 20 years. I don’t blame anybody for being excited about that. It’s not personally what I had in mind, but it’s better than whatever fuckery Phil Jackson assembled.

  49. Nope..nevermind. it appears that KFTV only has the Block Ness Monster merch now. They should really bring the Mitch Please merch back

  50. What’s the cap situation going to look like after RJ signs his extension? I’d have to imagine the team will be capped out or close to it until Randle’s deal comes off the books/is traded. The team is better, but a core of RJ, Randle, and Brunson probably isn’t doing anything interesting barring huge, and unlikely improvement, from RJ.

    Glad the FO didn’t shit the bed this time around, but I’m still not too excited with what they have now. This is a capped-out, middling team unless they can land a top guy with all the protected picks they have. Not gonna wave any pom poms until that move happens.

  51. Oh god, Brian. Reading the addendum on twitter is reminding me of guys I haven’t thought about in years. Jorts!!!

  52. Wow! Good job Knicks! We gave up NONE of our young players with upside. We re-signed the best one. We traded out of the draft for an upgrade at PG (essentially)
    We got better, not massively so, but better. Was it a good idea to get better? Maybe not in fantasy basketball, but in the real NBA, probably.
    The bet seems to be that Rose will play (which will improve the team a great deal right there), RJ will step up to an all star level, and Julius will bounce back. If so, it could be an exciting spring of 2023

  53. For people that are trashing Dallas’ FO, at least they know, unlike the Knicks, what players are the most important for a successful season. :D

    Theo Pinson To Re-Sign With Mavericks

  54. I doubt Brunson RJ and Randle is the endgame Leon had in mind for this team so I dont think we should expect them to just stand put on this core for the next 3 years. We may end up fumbling on getting that star player but that is clearly the goal which means they arent finshed making big moves.

  55. I’m happy for the Mitch and Brunson signings (maybe both little overpays but I’m not worried) and I love the Hartenstein sign.

    I commend the FO for his willingness to pivot and reverse course, not something we’re accustomed to, and I still think they made mistakes and missteps (and pay for them) mixed with good to very good moves, the two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

    Today, with other moves unknown, it’s a more flexible, younger roster, with less “safety blankets” for Thibs to fall back. He’ll be “forced” to play the youngsters more.

    If nothing changes the main question will be Randle’s attitude and Thibs’ ability to manage him (read: bench him) if he starts pouting, bitching and non-defending like last year.

    I’ve been one of Randle’s harsher critic and still prefer him traded, but with the right attitude a rim-bowling, savagely rebounding, trying on defense Randle is a great asset to have and it will take no more than 10 games (including preseason) to known where he is at.

    I’m pretty sure all the young guys will improve (as they did last year).

    As 2020-21 showed, after so many years of misery some 44-48 wins seasons with a sprinkle of playoffs games aren’t the worst thing in the world.

  56. the negative club: the knicks are going to lose mitch for nothing.

    the knicks: mitch is signed for 4 more years.

    the negative club: you incinerated an important draft pick and turned it to ashes.

    pop: I’ll trade you a young all star for these ashes (and a couple of other 1sts).

    the negative club: no desirable free agent will ever sign with this team.

    brunson: I’ll take less money to come here.

    the negative club: this team has no plan.

    a casual poster: brunson is a nice player. will he and internal improvement bring the knicks to be a legit 42-45 game winner?

    if that’s the case then, given all our extra draft picks a superstar trade is definitely possible and such a trade makes the knicks a legit contender. that’s a solid plan.

    btw. I’m not sure brunson is indeed that good. we’ll see.

  57. The Bungester is never going to lose a “most intellectually dishonest comment in a thread” competition whenever he shows up, but you at least gave it a ride.

  58. swift is now averaging win totals to avoid confronting recent setbacks, you love to see it

  59. Jowles, if Hubert and Z-Man can find common ground, so can you and Swifty. I believe in you both.

  60. I think the odds of getting a good player in return for an RJ-fronted package are better than the odds of RJ turning into a star. Randle is more of a salary dump candidate but you could actually get something good for RJ plus picks.

  61. Woj: “Atlanta is trading Kevin Huerter to Sacramento for Justin Holiday, Mo Harkless and a future first round pick, sources tell EPSN.”

  62. I am very happy that we signed Mitch to a new contract, that is a great move. He is one of our best players and worth every penny of that $60 million.

    I like the Brunson signing and am okay with the overpay, you need to overpay to steal players in free agency and his age and upside make it a good move. I also really like the Hartenstein signing. He is precisely the type of player you want to sign in free agency, young, productive, and with unrealized potential.

    Now we need to move Randle, no offseason can get a passing grade without moving him. We also need to move one or both of Rose and Fournier. IQ deserves 30 minutes a game and that cannot happen with both of them here. I would love to move both but if I have to choose I would rather move Rose, he is more directly in IQ’s way and is less easy to fit into the rotation in a nonobtrusive way.

    I still think Leon needs to go because his attitude around the draft is very harmful to this team’s long-term prospects but if he can move Randle and clear up the rotation it will have been a good offseason.

  63. With the Brunson move, for me Leon is doing an ok to good job. Three offseasons in and the FO is still on positive ground, i don’t remember the last Knicks’ FO that did it.

  64. Maybe the Kings would still do Barnes for Randle straight up? They could put Keegan Murray at SF. Not a great defensive squad but a dangerous one perhaps.

  65. That said, we need to solve some issues, meaning one of Fournier and Randle has to go (to better balance the team), and RJ is duplicative with Randle. So it’s an easy decision, it’s Randle that has to go.
    I don’t get why people think trading RJ now is good because he’s not making the huge money he’ll make in the next contract. But is the team that trades for him dumb? They know they’ll have to pay him, because they won’t be trading for him for a 1-year rental. The best way for him to be more valuable in trades is if he signs a team friendly extension.

  66. Or maybe Charlotte wants him for their post-Bridges era?

    Washington would be a good fit, as well.

  67. “Glad the FO didn’t shit the bed this time around, but I’m still not too excited with what they have now. This is a capped-out, middling team unless they can land a top guy with all the protected picks they have. Not gonna wave any pom poms until that move happens.”

    Why are they “capped out”? They still have loads of cap flexibility, plus young players on good contracts and draft picks. The Hawks were way more capped out than we were and they just added DeJounte Murray.

  68. “I still think Leon needs to go because his attitude around the draft is very harmful to this team’s long-term prospects”

    There is zero proof of this but okay…

  69. “We have some good nuts and bolts here, but have no chrome and leather”

    Very well crafted line. Rudderless also pretty perfect.

    It really hangs on RJ since I don’t think we can trade Randle. If he becomes worthy of the contract he seems destined to get we could win 50+. But that’s a long shot.

    Still, we have a young and decent team instead of an old and barely decent team.

  70. Brogdon to the Celts. Looks like they didn’t learn from the Kemba experience. Keep trading for injury prone PGs, Celts, that’s the way to go. :D

  71. “So KD, don’t you regret not coming to the Kniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicks?” LOLOL

  72. “If Leon Rose pulls off a big move, or moves, that make us a contender, I ain’t going anywhere ruru style. I will be here, happily eating my crow. I will simply repeat, however, it has not happened, and does not appear close to happening.”

    What does “appear close to happening” appear like? For example, did it look close to happening before the Nets landed Kyrie and KD? Did it appear close to happening when the Heat landed Bam and Jimmy?

    To me, appearing close to happening means:
    a) you are a destination where stars want to go because they think they can be the final piece or close to it. Brunson isn’t a star per se, but he clearly had other options yet chose to come here. Perhaps that’s the proverbial “canary in the mine.” Hartenstein had other options too. Even your beloved Mitch had other options. No one seems itching to get out of town.
    b) you have enough assets that other teams will take back in a deal for a star without decimating the team. Right now we could give up 4 first rounders and still have 7 left in the next 7 years. We could give up some 3-piece combo of RJ, IQ, Obi, Grimes, Mitch or Hartenstein and probably never miss them. And that might even improve between now and the trade deadline.

  73. Just what are the C’s gonna do with White and Brogdon coming off the bench? With Smart and Brown starting, there’s not really alot of minutes. Unless they plan on shifting Brown and Tatum up a slot and starting either Brogdon or White next to Smart

  74. “What does “appear close to happening” appear like? For example, did it look close to happening before the Nets landed Kyrie and KD? Did it appear close to happening when the Heat landed Bam and Jimmy?”

    Kyrie and KD were pending UFAs that everyone on the planet knew were changing teams, and likely teaming up. It was a clear opportunity for any team that could clear enough cap space to sign them both.

    Jimmy Butler was also a pending UFA that the Sixers foolishly decided not to re-sign. Again, someone was going to get him.

    There’s nothing like that on the horizon right now. Seriously, look at the list of UFAs for the next few years. All of our eggs are in the “unidentified Superstar X demands a trade to us” basket.

    Superstars demanding a trade is rare enough, and your team being the winner of the sweepstakes is even more rare. I mean hell, one of the best players on the planet just demanded a trade and for a variety of reasons we’re not even in the running, so you need a lot more than the trade demand itself.

    It’s a “plan” over which the team trying to execute it has so little control it can hardly be called a “plan.” Say what you will about tanking or whatever, but you’re making the damn picks. You might pass on Luka Doncic like a moron, but the opportunities will be there.

    This shit comes with no such certainty, and even when it “works” you still might wind up like the Carmelo Anthony led Knicks because the guy you landed in a trade wasn’t worth it (a future Donovan Mitchell trade says hi).

  75. Just what are the C’s gonna do with White and Brogdon coming off the bench? With Smart and Brown starting, there’s not really alot of minutes. Unless they plan on shifting Brown and Tatum up a slot and starting either Brogdon or White next to Smart

    I suspect that that is precisely what they will be doing (playing Tatum at the 4 and Brown at the 3).

  76. FWIW — to me Leon’s plan seems purposeful in another very pointed way: Thibs must play the kids and construct an offense that takes advantage of our obvious strengths. This roster provides no cover for coach to complain that he doesn’t have the right tools or that they’re too young. Whether Thibs can actually coach an offense is something else Leon is pointing out for everyone to watch this year.

    Either way, even if we are stuck in a limbo of mediocrity this year, I have faith that some of those young players will either bloom into stars we love and keep, or they will show enough value to be bundled together for the next shiny Melo that comes along.

  77. Why are they “capped out”?

    Here’s my napkin math:

    Brunson at $26 mil
    Randle at $30 mil
    RJ at $30-35 mil (post-extension)
    Mitch at $15 mil

    That would leave the Knicks with roughly $20-$30 mil in cap space available for any of the years that these contracts are on the books (assuming small steady raises in the NBA cap with no huge jumps). Knicks also still have Fournier under contract for at least 2 more seasons at roughly $18 mil as well as the young guys like IQ and Toppin, who will also be looking at extensions in the next two seasons.

    Not seeing much ‘cap flexibility’ outside of trading RJ, Randle, or Fournier into someone else’s cap space without taking anything back (or for an expiring I guess). We’ll see what materializes.

  78. KBA – We have three guys in Brunson, Obi and Mitch who would do well in a transition offense. Leon may be playing three dimensional chess or he may have hired a coach who likes to play super slow.

    I don’t think it will matter that much to results but more shots to go around would also be better with so many mouths to feed on offense.

  79. “This shit comes with no such certainty, and even when it “works” you still might wind up like the Carmelo Anthony led Knicks because the guy you landed in a trade wasn’t worth it (a future Donovan Mitchell trade says hi).”

    Or alternatively, you can miss the playoffs (or getting out of the first round) for a million straight years (like the TWolves, Kings, Magic and others) while you play in a half-empty building charging the highest prices in the league in one of the world’s great cities, while every year some team that was in the dreaded “mediocre but not terrible” zone that we’re in picks a difference-maker in the 10-20 range or later and now has even more trade capital and desirability. You brought up Donovan Mitchell, where was he picked? Where was his teammate Rudy Gobert picked? And like you said, stars are no longer waiting for free agency to switch teams via trade demands.

  80. “while you play in a half-empty building charging the highest prices in the league in one of the world’s great cities”

    How does this apply to the Knicks? They were still selling out games during the Isiah doldrums.

    Which actually makes their reticence for an actual rebuild so painful. They can consistently put out terrible teams and still sell seats! We’ve seen it for the last 20 years!

  81. you shouldn’t really celebrate mediocrity…. and it appears these offseasons have celebrated that (prematurely even)…. that’s not to say brunson and hartenstein are good moves… they are… it’s just the strategy itself is flawed and not going to amount to much… and it’s ok to call out the strategy…

    here’s all of Leon Rose’s moves since he got here:

    1. Hired Coach Thibs
    2. Drafted Obi Toppin and Immanuel Quickley (some maneuvering involved with Quickley but ended up with)
    3. Traded the #33 pick for the Det pick – The 2020 Incineration
    4. Signed Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel part 1
    5. Signed Elfrid Payton pt.2
    6. Traded for Austin Rivers (likely the roster spot the 33rd pick got incinerated for)
    7. Signed Taj Gibson pt.1
    8. Traded Dennis Smith 2021 second for Derrick Rose
    9. Traded Ignas Brazdeikis Austin Rivers for a 2021 2nd rd pick (Jericho Sims)
    10. Signed Norvelle Pelle, Myles Powell, Jared Harper
    11. Drafted Quentin Grimes, Deuce McBride, Jericho Sims
    12. Traded #19/21 for future conditional CHA 1st rd pick (The 2021 Incineration)
    13. Signed Kemba Walker, Alec Burks pt2, Nerlens Noel pt.2 , Derrick Rose pt 2, Evan Fournier
    14. Extended Julius Randle
    15. Traded future conditional CHA 1st rd pick Kevin Knox for Cam Reddish – (The Double Incineration)
    16. Signed Ryan Arcidiacono
    17. Traded pick #11 for three future conditional 1st rd’ers to unload Kemba – The 2022 Incineration
    18. Signed Jalen Brunson
    19. Signed Isaiah Hartenstein
    20. Extended Mitch Robinson

    i actually like #18-20… but #1-17 aint exactly a portent to the promised land so please excuse the degree of pessimism around the board lest we start doing any premature touchdown dances or start putting up mission accomplished signs like we did last offseason….

    a monkey can get us to .500… Leon Rose’s job is to not build a .500 team.. and this whole trade for a star approach is fine.. but there’s been a lot of stars on the market.. so now what?

  82. Owen — Yes, exactly. I would add IQ to that list, and we could all talk about some others who would thrive in transition. I think that is exactly Leon’s passive aggressive point: “Don’t fucking pound the ball so much, coach; And for God’s sake keep it out of Randle’s hands!” Previously, Thibs could hide his non-offense behind, “But I don’t have point guard, Leon.” No more.

    Again, don’t get me wrong, our guys might still suck at *execution of any offense, but Leon has delivered a tool for every need and each tool is under age 25. Acquiring Hart makes this even clearer to me. We’ve been whining that the paint is too clogged with RJ, Randle, and Mitch. Well, Leon hears us: “Put in Hart and stretch the floor.”

    Again it’s cynical (of me) to suggest Leon and Thibs are at odds in any of this. Maybe they’re in sync, but this roster makes a good case for firing Thibs if we watch god-awful slow basketball for another year as our ulcers worsen. Again they will lose a lot of games, but we can all tell if they’re losing “the right way.”

    Btw — truth be told, the guy who Brunson reminds me most of in his playoff highlight reel is Jeremy Lin, not for the playing style of course but for his will to win (and for my feeling that Brunson’s overwhelming success in the moment appears similarly ephemeral). But to your point about transition offense, Mr. D’Antoni would absolutely LOVE to coach this team ;-)

  83. I hate arguing with djphan, but I have to side with Z-Man on this one, and when you’ve been in purgatory for 20 years, you absolutely celebrate mediocrity, especially when it has actual upside (lotsa exciting kids, most of the older blah never improving players gone, lots of picks, etc.). Previous mediocre Knicks teams (and there’ve been a couple) felt hopeless, as they were usually stocked with 30-yr-old never-really-weres going nowhere and the org had no flexibility.

    We’re not a top-four team, but duh. We’re also not likely to be a bottom-four team, and one can chart any number of potential pathways to continuing to improve. That’s actually radical for the Knicks.

  84. we’ve had a three year run that ultimately ended up in a second rd finish in the last 20 years… that was actually 9 years ago… are we going to reach that? or are you saying you’d settle for less than that as long as the roster is younger and more picks even if we don’t get there?

  85. All this talk about mediocrity and 45 win ceilings brings to mind how much I underestimated what a pretty damn good accomplishment it was that from 1992-2000 the Knicks went 9 years in a row where they reached the 2nd rd of the playoffs. Go back to 1989 and it was 11 years out of 12 where they reached the 2nd rd. There is a generation of younger Knicks fans that can’t even fathom accomplishing that.

    I know in the end it didn’t lead to any championships but they did reach the Conference Finals 4 times and the NBA Finals twice. Not to mention 3 times they were eliminated in the 2nd rd in a 7th game so they came pretty damn close to reaching 7 Conference Finals in 9 years. I can only imagine the threads if Knickerblogger was around back then!!

  86. The Timberwolves are trading for Rudy Gobert. Fuck the heck?!?! They now have two star centers?!?!

  87. This has the potential to be really, really good for Minnesota. Towns is good enough as a shooter that he can work in the 4 slot, and Gobert improves their defense massively, more than any other addition would really, and with Russell, Ant and Towns they don’t even need him to shoot.

    Unless they added like 4 unprotected 1sts to the deal I think this is going to be great for them.

  88. a monkey can get us to .500

    Tell that to 10 or so GMs we’ve had in the past two decades

  89. Also, the Royce O’Neale trade now makes sense for the Jazz, which probably means a Donovan Mitchell move is more likely now. It makes very little sense for the Jazz to keep him and surround him with Beasley and Clarkson et al and try to compete, you don’t trade Gobert for this package if you’re not tanking.

  90. That’s quite a lot to give up for Gobert, but he’s really, really good and the Wolves should be an absolute handful. I like it for both teams but the onus is on the Jazz to either go into full tear down mode, or quickly repurpose this package for present help.

    …does Kevin Durant like Salt Lake City?

  91. Yeah, the 90’s was a pretty good run. Kinda sad that no championship, but only one team a year gets to win that.

  92. holy $#% that is a lot of unprotected firsts for Gobert

    This is not going to turn out well for them.

    Utah, however — assuming they trade Donovan now, they will have a lot of picks going forward. Wow.

  93. i like that deal a lot for minny… there’s some questions on how they’re going to matchup in the playoffs against small lineups but zigging while the league is zagging is one approach to contention…. and of course connelly has a stellar track record so i’ll give him the benefit of the doubt….

    going to be a real interesting team to watch that’s going with a real twin towers approach and how towns matches up against the league’s much smaller 4s…

  94. Well, as bad as we are, at least we didn’t give up 4 1st rd picks to pay a 15ppg center ~40 million a year into his declining years.

  95. “This is not going to turn out well for them.”

    I mean, there are very few teams that have a non-zero chance at winning a title and I think they just put themselves into that group. I have no idea what their exact chances are, but they’re absolutely high enough to go for it.

    If things go haywire they can always get a huge return for Edwards and/or KAT.

  96. The Spurs did very well with a twin towers approach, maybe Minny thinks they have Duncan and Robinson 2.0, i guess. They need Kyrie because they are daring to be different. LOL

  97. Hey, the 90s Knicks were real contenders, 2 NBA Finals, leading 3-2 in one of the finals and lost game 6 only by 2 points. I’ll only let this one go when we get there again, and win it this time.

  98. Lots of unprotected picks for what I think it would be a weird pairing of Gobert and KAT. On defense, I think it should be easy to get mismatches and put quick smaller players taking advantage from the perimeter. Let’s see…

  99. I guess Utah keeps Donovan Mitchell, tanks for a year, and goes all in next FA. Donovan is young and it would a big blow to lose all their stars… and since he has 3 more years under contract (and then a PO), I think they can lose one of Mitchell years and still have him buy in afterwards. Also, he probably asked the FO to trade Gobert.

  100. “Unless they added like 4 unprotected 1sts to the deal I think this is going to be great for them.”

    Well one of the 4 is protected 1-5

  101. Holy shit..looks like the Knicks should have been in trade talks with Minnesota. Utah got a haul for an extremely overpaid one dimensional center. Yikes. We could have at least gotten 2 firsts from them for Burks and Noel LOL

  102. didn’t the wolves bring in some new “well-respected” front office talent – i wouldn’t have come up with this plan, maybe it works though…

    ant man and kat are gonna put up points, gorbet dominates during the regular season…

  103. I think Rose is doing a comparatively good job simply because he broke the Charlie Ward curse. The bar is that low here, people.

  104. Gobert is only one-dimensional if you think being the best defender in the league at the most important defensive position is one dimension

    Minnesota just became title favorites if Ant becomes even slightly better than last year

  105. I think that is exactly Leon’s passive aggressive point: “Don’t fucking pound the ball so much, coach; And for God’s sake keep it out of Randle’s hands!” Previously, Thibs could hide his non-offense behind, “But I don’t have point guard, Leon.” No more.

    Again it’s cynical (of me) to suggest Leon and Thibs are at odds in any of this. Maybe they’re in sync, but this roster makes a good case for firing Thibs if we watch god-awful slow basketball for another year as our ulcers worsen. Again they will lose a lot of games, but we can all tell if they’re losing “the right way.”

    good stuff kb apprentice…or, at least i agree with it :) i’ll look for owen’s post on this…

  106. Gobert is only one-dimensional if you think being the best defender in the league at the most important defensive position is one dimension

    But you are bumping your already challenged defensively center to a position he is worse suited to defend. And Gobert can’t help on the perimeter constantly.

  107. i mean if he’s worse suited to defend the perimeter they are better equipped to handle it with gobert roaming the paint area…. and which PF’s are actually going to punish KAT that KAT isn’t going to abuse on the other end? he’s actually capable of slaughtering mismatches unlike other bigs….

    minny plays a bunch of different defenses… they can go aggressive.. or drop and did some at varying points of last season… so they can do either of those or just funnel everything into Gobert like Utah did… Finch is an actual good coach and can adjust the scheme to the personnel and fitting Gobert and Towns isn’t going to be the problem… any defense with Gobert is going to be good…

    the challenge is going to be on the other end to make it worth it… and Towns is talented enough to make it work.. in fact it’s probably his ideal frontcourt pairing….

  108. I don’t know, KAT was slaughtering mismatches already before, and I am not sure that Gobert changes the way he is defended. Perhaps I am burned because back when we traded for Bargnani I thought that Chandler’s being the C and Bargnani the PF would kind of work defensively, and it was actually worse than having Bargnani at C alone. Comparing KAT to Bargnani is asinine, but I am kind of wary of putting together a twin towers defense if the “PF” has trouble defending the perimeter.

  109. This Utah move smells like early innings of a three team trade with the Suns and the Nets. Utah gets Ayton to partner with Mitchell, Suns get the haul of 1st round picks from the Jazz to go with Bridges, Cameron Johnson, etc to send to the Nets. Would 4+ firsts, Bridges and Johnson be good enough to reel in Durant?

  110. I think KAT is a better defensive fit at PF than center. He’s just too soft/slow inside. And Gobert can help when he gets beat on drives.

    Thinking of offense / defense with a pairing like this: Offensively, KAT can shoot so he can play 4. They don’t have a lot of other shooting though so Gobert could clog things a bit (maybe Edwards steps up). On defense, Gobert is a monstrously large upgrade over Towns at center. I’d rather have Gobert and Towns than Towns/Vanderbilt or Towns/McDaniels.

    And quite a few teams are playing two bigs, as long as one can shoot. Williams/Horford, Lopez/Giannis, JJJ/Adams, Bam/Tucker, etc. The Warriors even play two non-shooting bigs in Looney/Dray, but they’re relying on some pretty unique talents.

  111. Rapid Knicks Test:
    Will Leon Rose get the best executive award this year?

    Has he finally cleaned/kept under control the usually shitty knicks roster/cap situation?

    Are we now a serious destination for big dogs?

    Correct answers:
    (No, Fkn Yeah, Finally)

  112. Whining bout the knicks and whining in general is a very common state of mind/behaviour but needs to be restrained sometimes cause tends to be tiring and ridiculous
    Especially when things go well

  113. Kings are trying to end the playoff drought

    I’ve never seen a team chase a first-round sweep ceiling so hard

    wait, I watched (some of) the 2021-22 Knicks

  114. Gobert and Towns is instantly the best frontcourt in the NBA and it’s not close, given how complementary they are. Towns will dominate the ball on offense with Edwards and Russell, and Towns can stand in the corner on stretch fours for entire possessions instead of being called upon to erase drives.

    The big point here is that the Wolves gave up zero immediate assets to get a perennial DPOY. The firsts only hurt if the Wolves implode a la Nets. They’re clearly bullish on their future and know they have TWO franchise-level players, one more year of Russell locked up, and now have a guy who should bump their D to a top-5 defense by himself.

  115. Yeah they’re hiding Towns’ greatest weakness. On paper it’s a really good team.

    This is what happens when you acquire a lot of high lottery picks err’body!

  116. I love that the Cavs signed Robin Lopez. They want to have an all-center starting five.

  117. Minny: “This season, i’m going to play with 2 centers”
    Cavs: “Hold my beer”

  118. I’ve never seen a team chase a first-round sweep ceiling so hard

    Yeah, i’m predicting they’ll be back to tanking in 2024-25. ;)

  119. Every Minnesota fans I’ve seen has said multiple times that Towns is much better switching and defending outside, where he’s terrible is at paint protection. The Wolves are essentially trading 2000 minutes for Vanderbilt, who also provides nothing on offense, for the best rim protector in the league who has carried a very mediocre Utah defense to top levels for years.

    Now seeing the full trade, it was certainly an overpay. But they also had Towns sign his extension immediately as soon as he was able to, which is a big sign of trust in the franchise, and they’re showing Edwards that they’re going to make the moves to compete around them. If Ant develops to his potential they are a contender in the next couple of years.

  120. And while Gobert is a great athlete for a man that large, his defense is largely predicated on his length, anticipation and spatial awareness. He’s just so good at making players work to get to the rim, or create separation.

    The playoff questions will still be there, but I can’t hold him responsible for Mike Conley turning into a pumpkin last year, or Donovan Mitchell’s absurdly bad performance in 2019 (-4.6 BPM in 193 minutes — no volume-scoring max player should ever have a 6.8 PER in a playoff SERIES).

  121. looks like no team wanted to bet on oladipo being back to healthy…

    why would portland bring back nurkic?

  122. Ok so I have 2 wonders:
    1. What in the world is Orlando gonna do at the 4/5? Bamba, Carter, Banchero, and Isaac all deserve minutes. Especially Isaac.
    2. Why are the Dubs just collecting guards? They somehow got even smaller. Not that it’s stopped them from winning, but I’d like to see someone at least 6’8″ 230 at forward for them in the rotation. Just one other guy. Right now they have Wiseman (who they’re trying to rebuild), and Looney- who is a 6’9″-ish 230 lb center.

  123. There is still a lot of trading to be done but the outlines of this off season are becoming clear. Some teams wii probably improve because of big moves (Knicks, Atlanta, Minnesota), some teams deliberately got worse (San Antonio and Utah), some will probably improve because of returns from injuries (Clippers, Pelicans and maybe the Nets) and some are out and out rebuilding already (Detroit and Orlando). Dallas will probably be worse. On balance, there seems to be more turmoil in the West, making it hard to predict. In the East, not all the trams besides Detroit and Orlando can be good so something has to give.

  124. so what was the total cost to get brunson end up being? a first rounder and 2 2nds?

  125. If I understand correctly, it was a bunch of seconds and a first round pick swap. Some of the seconds were ok, but some were very late seconds. And of course we gave up our number 11 pick which contributed to cap space but we got three future firsts in return.

  126. One thing is for certain. If someone is injured and not able to play, a deal looks very bad. If someone doesn’t play to career norms, a contract seems like an albatross. So, on paper MIN wins. They have Rudy and Karl for 4 years. If they play to career norms, Jowles just told you… If they don’t, it looks REAL BAD for MIN.

    As to Knicks, people keep crushing them for last year’s FA’s but half didn’t play. There’s a ripple effect on production, especially without DROSE. I mean, put Fournier on the Dubs…

  127. Not a big fan of what Minny did but I guess they had to do something…I don’t think the fit is great but let’s see what happens. Great move for Utah though, and I’m a big Walker Kessler fan.

  128. i agree, Utah did great. The writing was on the wall when Snyder decided to leave and they read it.

  129. “JK47
    July 1, 2022 at 7:01 pm
    Yeah they’re hiding Towns’ greatest weakness. On paper it’s a really good team.

    This is what happens when you acquire a lot of high lottery picks err’body!”

    Minny has won zero playoff series since they tanked for KAT seven seasons ago. They are now paying 2 players super-max money and have no draft picks. If that’s what happens, I’ll be okay taking my chances with a different approach.

  130. Minny has won zero playoff series since they tanked for KAT seven seasons ago.

    The Knicks have won one playoff series in the last 22 seasons. That one playoff series win came ten years ago.

    I would go ahead and venture a guess that the Timberwolves are probably gonna be better than the Knicks for the forseeable future, especially when you consider that they won 46 games last season BEFORE adding a 3x DPOY to their roster.

    One of the reasons they’re going to be good is that they have a 20 year old future superstar on their roster who they drafted #1 overall. That was the same draft in which the Knicks acquired their now 24 year old backup power forward with the 8th overall pick.

    Hybrid method for the loss!

    I’m not saying the Wolves are going to win a title, but their ceiling is “NBA champion.” The Brunson/Randle/RJ Knicks’ ceiling is… well, it’s somewhat less than that.

  131. the conversation we all had reference happiness really helped me a lot…got me to understand – what’s important for me is identifying and understanding the components within the system and their ability to perform…

    so, my hypothalamus is flooding my body with epinephrine and cortisol…i feel like i’m living in that movie crank…now gotta figure out how to help guide my doc towards testing and possible solutions…

    it’s gonna take more time before my mind is more in control…imagine snorting a bunch of lines of coke and trying to make reasonable decisions throughout the day…

    pushing my soon to be 59 year body to physical extremes to “bleed off” the adrenaline may not be that dependable a solution as i age…it’s a catch-22, the more i read about cortisol – the other stress hormone flooding my body – the more i understand now why my immune system takes such a nose-dive during these anxiety episodes…

    the therapist kept saying i had an anxiety issue (no personality disorders detected) – i don’t really believe i have an anxiety issue, i have an endocrine system issue caused by a brain injury…

    sadly, there don’t seem to be any magic pills that address the excess production of stress hormones over prolonged periods…

    i can get tested though to observe my hormone levels…

    need to push for one of those continuous glucose monitors also…the fitbit thing has been helping me a bunch, i need more real time physical data though related towards understanding glucose and insulin levels – both of which are heavily influenced by cortisol…

    it’s funny where answers can come from…thanks…

    one last last thought – until yesterday when the therapist helped me put together the feedback from all 3 different psychological evaluations – i thought there was a very real possibility i was manic…

  132. From a Hollinger and Duncan podcast, paraphrasing: “so how is Dallas going to replace Brunson?”, “I’m sure they think with Dinwiddie”, “well ok, then how will they replace Dinwiddie?”, “um, yeah, Frank Ntilikina?, No?”

  133. Geo, that stuff sounds really hard on the body and mind. You gave my sympathies.

  134. Looking at Minnny and admittedly some cherry-picking here, but just a reminder relying on the lottery takes a bit of luck, something the Knicks decidedly lack:
    2015 Draft
    Minnny record 16-66; lottery odds 1st; lottery result 1st
    Knicks record: 17-65; lottery odds 2nd; lottery result 4th

    2020 Draft
    Minny record: 19-45; lottery odds 3rd; lottery result 1st
    Knicks record: 21-45; lottery odds 6th; lottery result 8th.

  135. @Geo: i have to say i can’t imagine what you’re going through, and i’m far far away, but whatever you need that i can help, my friend, i’m here!

  136. edit to last comment: 2020 Minny record was 19-45 (not 21-45) Knicks record 21-45 (not 19-45).

  137. Bernie, don’t forget the 2019 Draft, we tanked perfectly (worst record in the league) for Zion, then everybody knew it was a 2 player draft (Zion and Ja). So obviously the Knicks picked 3rd. Let’s hope it was the Charlie Ward curse that was putting the draft gods against us, and we’ll be super lucky next time (a la Pelicans for… Zion).

  138. “Hybrid method for the loss!”

    Do I really have to yet again go over how many teams have lapped MIN several times with the hybrid method? Or how many teams went the high draft pick method and continue to hit a hard ceiling well below “NBA champion”?

    “I’m not saying the Wolves are going to win a title”

    You shouldn’t because they won’t with this bunch

    “but their ceiling is “NBA champion.” ”

    Interesting that you’re saying that before they play a single game with this new all-in alignment. If I remember correctly, the ceiling for a team just across the river was “NBA Champion” and they had a much better “Big 3” than the T’Wolves do now. How did that work out?

    “The Brunson/Randle/RJ Knicks’ ceiling is… well, it’s somewhat less than that.””

    Agree for now, but this is nowhere near a finished product. Let’s check back when we are 7 years out from drafting RJ and have no first round picks left to trade for the next 7 years. By then, we’ll know how close Minny actually was to its “NBA Champion” ceiling and how the hybrid method worked out.

  139. On a related note, I truly hope that we don’t sell the farm for Donovan Mitchell. For me, that would be the equivalent of the Melo trade. This year should be all about:
    1) finding out what we really have with RJ, Obi, IQ and Grimes. Same for Cam and Deuce if they’re still around. Same for Sims and Keels to a lesser degree.
    2) finding out whether Brunson can help rehabilitate Randle’s value to the point where he’s either worth keeping or considered an asset in a trade.
    3) keeping the powder dry until the right players become available. Mitchell is not that guy, and dealing with Ainge is not usually a great idea.

  140. Total agreement on no Mitchell. And for those wondering “but there really isn’t anyone else in the next couple of years” remember that Kyrie will have a new set of teammates to piss off.

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