PHI 98, NYK 97 — The Knicks Suck

This has to be the Knicksiest last 48 hours. Well maybe not the Knicksiest, as they didn’t trade any draft picks for an overpaid and over-the-hill scorer in that time. But it’s hard to argue that it hasn’t been a Knickly two days.

It started when New York drops a home game to the Pelicans, competing like an actual NBA team for a half, before playing a third quarter that saw a 9 point deficit balloon to 25. In that period Knicks star Carmelo Anthony got himself ejected. And tough-guy Kyle O’Quinn decided to try to end the career of Anthony Davis. Or as I like to call Davis, “the super star most likely to move teams and win a championship in his next stop.” Way to make him cross off the Big Apple as a destination, KOQ. (Although it’s hard to argue that New York, given the current state of affairs, was a destination for The Brow anyway.)

On the court last night, the team toys with the Sixers, taking them about as seriously as the adults playing the nieces and nephew’s in a backyard game after Thanksgiving dinner. Of course despite their mediocre effort, the Knicks had the opportunity to close the game out on the final possession. Instead of running a play that might give them a chance to score, they allowed their point guard to dribble into a triple team and … well … I know you know what happened next.

If their on the court performance wasn’t enough, reports surfaced that the franchise’s main off-season acquisition, Derrick Rose, went AWOL for Monday’s game. Supposedly he left the team to go back to Chicago, but didn’t notify management with a call, text, or email, despite going to an airport. (You know the place you wait for hours doing nothing but play with your phone.)

Apparently Rose’s punishment was a $500 fine and a plane ticket back to New York. Not only is $500 less than the Knicks paid per game for Rose, it’s probably half the amount that might be worth for him to stop and pick off the floor if he dropped it. Surely it’s not even the cost of the plane ticket back to New York.

The Knicks’ suits botched their handling of this situation, much like the team bungled their last 2 games. There’s a reason some franchises win year after year. Good owners hire competent front offices and the trickle down effects results in wins. Maybe not every year, but surely more often than not. And if that were ever in doubt, look at the Los Angeles Lakers, and how their dynasty has suffered since the death of Jerry Buss. Or look at how Mark Cuban turned around perennial loser Dallas into a solid franchise.

The Knicks lose on the court, because the ownership hires the wrong front office staff, who acquire the wrong players. Our team is so incompetent that they can’t even get some basics right, like how to discipline players or what basketball philosophy to enact on the court.

This will not change, because ownership is blind to the problem. Everyone who has suffered through an addiction problem, or knows someone who has, understands there is no progress until the addict can admit they have a problem. Yet before the start of the last season MSG thought the Knicks were a playoff team, and they ended with the worst record in franchise history. This year, our “Big 3” was supposed to make the playoffs and then some. Yet statistical minded folk knew both teams were doomed to the lottery from the start.

I started this blog in 2004, and the Knicks have given me 10 losing seasons and only 4 playoff appearances. And I’m pretty sure every fan here reading this has been a Knick fan for at least that long. Last night I had my notes ready for a game recap. I had some witty ideas of a Russian/Wikileaks hacked version. But then New York put on their perverse show, and a wave of disgust came over me — and I couldn’t stomach the joy to go through with writing about them in a fun & light way. So all I’m left with is this:

The Knicks Suck.

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Mike Kurylo

Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

128 thoughts to “PHI 98, NYK 97 — The Knicks Suck”

  1. I feel your pain Mike… thanks for sticking up with this blog for such a long time, it’s been an amazing outlet to let go of our frustrations and find some solace in this complete joke of a franchise.

    on a lighter note, let’s just say that the Simpsons humour don’t translate well to swedish lol

  2. For what it is worth, apparently the actual fine was closer to Rose’s game salary, so roughly $200,000.

  3. Could there be any logical, behind the scenes reason the Rose thing was handled like it was? I mean, they certainly don’t owe the guy anything. The certainly don’t want to sign him long term to a big $$ deal. And there’s certainly no logical reason to piss off the rest of the team. Could any of these be true:
    -Phil is working on a deal to trade him, and thought a big fine / suspension would f it up?
    -Something really horrible went down for him personally, the players support him, and mgt is keeping quiet out of respect?
    -They want to sign him to 3 years at a discounted rate and are kissing his ass in hopes that he will remember in negotiation?
    -Something else? anything else?

  4. All I can say is: don’t sweat it, my fellow knickerbloggers! Enjoy all the great basketball played every night in the NBA. Root for some other team – there is no rule against it. Don’t let Dolan hijack your happiness.

  5. Could there be any logical, behind the scenes reason the Rose thing was handled like it was?

    Occam’s Razor says no. I think plain old rank incompetence is the reason.

  6. I think that because we no longer have the updates here, and the players can’t look the next day to see if they got a B- or whatever, they have lost all motivation

  7. I must say, I don’t recall seeing 2 buzzer beater winners by a trailing team more than 1 time a year. But twice in a week. That’s gotta hurt. It’s not even like the games would have gone to OT, the Knicks were gonna win the games. That’s a 4 game swing in. 2 shots

  8. The Sixers are my side-piece as a resident of the Philly region… I can honestly say I enjoy watching them even when they are getting crushed… It’s not hard to root for guys trying to make something of nothing, or something of something… or whatever… and I love seeing that bum Okafor on the bench getting 3 DNPs in a row… last night was heartbreaking, however, but not surprising… I’ve come to tolerate Rose, aside from the AWOL BS… but as a basketball player he still gives me more good vibes than bad vibes… I do question the motor sometimes because he lacks showing that TEAM-oriented emotion… as for Melo, he still gives me nothing… what he offers is complete stagnation… i cant stand his game, i dont want his game… im getting desperate…

  9. and thats what its come to… tolerating Rose… his drive last night going under the rim beating Embiid… i mean, that was awesome… it was actually inspiring… he can still inspire… even noah gets the big rebounds late despite not showing up for most of the game… i just cant take Melo… go away, guy

  10. “Feline quickness, canine attitude” is a great description of an NBA player like Rose, Iverson, et al. Clyde is a national treasure.

  11. The frustrating part is not that we suck. It’s that we suck with veterans like Melo, Rose, and Noah who are on their way down instead of with young players that are on their way up. Hope is a big part of it. We have 2 good young players with upside in KP and Hernangomez. The trip from there to contender is a long way away. That’s what sucks.

  12. Isola was knocking Rose for the final possession, which I think is absurd. He handled that last possession absolutely correctly. Dude drew a triple team! The most hilariously sad part about the game-winning shot was Melo not even lifting his arms on defense on McConnell’s shot.

  13. I must say, I don’t recall seeing 2 buzzer beater winners by a trailing team more than 1 time a year. But twice in a week. That’s gotta hurt. It’s not even like the games would have gone to OT, the Knicks were gonna win the games. That’s a 4 game swing in. 2 shots

    Pythagoras spares no one.

  14. I disagree about melo on the last play. It was a helter skelter type of play where the guy shot over Porsingis. So I don’t think Melos arm being there would have meant anything. He was more focused on keeping him in front of him. We’ve seen many players hit shots in Melos face with his hand up. It was a quick shot by a quicker guy.

  15. Melo was never much of a defender, but he has really been a new level of horrendous this season on the defensive end. He looks noticeably slower and less athletic this year, and his effort sucks.

    He played a better all-around floor game last year, and acted more like a leader even though the team was bad. This year he is playing like a parody of himself.

  16. I disagree about melo on the last play. It was a helter skelter type of play where the guy shot over Porsingis. So I don’t think Melos arm being there would have meant anything. He was more focused on keeping him in front of him. We’ve seen many players hit shots in Melos face with his hand up. It was a quick shot by a quicker guy.

    The clock was running down to zero, of course McConnell was going to shoot it. You can’t freeze there. That was terrible defense. Even Wally and Hahn called him out on it, and they don’t like to call players out on stuff.

  17. Someone (maybe Clyde) faulted Jennings for passing to KP who had just come in. I kinda agree there. Tho the percentages say KP should be shooting

  18. The clock was running down to zero, of course McConnell was going to shoot it. You can’t freeze there. That was terrible defense.

    I don’t disagree I just think it wouldnt have mattered

  19. Oh, okay, gotcha. I do agree with that. It probably wouldn’t have mattered. Still gotta do it.

  20. Someone (maybe Clyde) faulted Jennings for passing to KP who had just come in. I kinda agree there. Tho the percentages say KP should be shooting

    Oh sure, you can certainly argue that maybe Jennings shouldn’t pass it to KP there, but Rose’s pass was absolutely the right play.

  21. Rose was the one who poked the ball off the air ball, lol!

    Imagine if the Sixers had taken KP instead of chubby cheeked Okafor. OH MY Embiid/KP

    in other news, I dont think there is another player in sports that is so easy to like and root for as Joel Embiid. I honestly hope he avoids any more injuries and has a long career

  22. in other news, I dont think there is another player in sports that is so easy to like and root for as Joel Embiid. I honestly hope he avoids any more injuries and has a long career

    Embiid is amazing, but I think there are a lot of similarly fun-to-root-for guys out there. KP, Greek Freak and The Brow to name three.

  23. Mike, I don’t want to put salt on your wounds, but the Knicks actually gave you ELEVEN losing seasons since you launched Knickerblogger. They made the playoffs in 2004 with only 39 wins.

  24. i also think that last play was what it was and not on melo or anyone really… that $hit just happens when time is running out…

    Rose bailed himself out on that final play… not sure how i feel about it in of itself, probably not great to go baseline into the imaginary defender that is the baseline, but it ended up with good looks for the next guy… and then the next guy…

  25. I hope the Knicks figure some trades out and make good picks going forward. I would like to see the conference finals before I die.

  26. Oh sure, you can certainly argue that maybe Jennings shouldn’t pass it to KP there, but Rose’s pass was absolutely the right play.

    Oh come on. 3 point shooter open in the corner and you don’t want him to pass it? Or would you rather BJ chuck a 3 or drive and brick a layup?

  27. BJ has been hot shooting lately. Can’t fault him for the pass though, that’s major Monday morning qb

  28. and embiid’s social media game is so on point, as is his regular social game, that it gives him the edge in rootability…

  29. Oh come on. 3 point shooter open in the corner and you don’t want him to pass it? Or would you rather BJ chuck a 3 or drive and brick a layup?

    Not saying that I think Jennings made the wrong play, but at least it’s arguable. Rose’s pass, though, was clearly the right play.

  30. I don’t know if it was by design or not, but Rose made the right play there, and so did Brandon Jennings. KP came up (way) short, then all hell broke loose. I think it’s unfair to put so much blame on Melo for that last shot. He made a good job keeping McConnell from reaching the rim for a lay-up, and he was caught kinda out of balance. Of course, he’s not the best defender, and probably a player like Kawhi Leonard would defend it better, but, well, this sort of play is just something that happens in those situations, gotta live with that (I’m talking exclusively about the last play; losing the lead before was unforgivable).

  31. These two last-minute losses is the type of thing that happens to bad teams. Up there with Chandler goaltending his own dunk with the head!

  32. I don’t think Melo’s d in that last play was terrible. He moved his feet against a much faster guy to prevent a layup or a foul. That left him of balance and he had no chance to really bother the shot because he couldn’t shift his weight back toward the fade. The ridiculous Melo play came earlier when he wanted a foul call (didn’t even look like he was fouled) on his follow miss and sulked instead of running back, which led to a wide open corner three. Melo has done that exact thing so many times this year it’s stopped being noteworthy.

  33. On the next episode of Melorose Place (remember that popular nightime 90s soap opera?), Jerian Grant torches the Knicks and Robin Lopez has 30 at end of the 3rd quarter. A frustrated Melo tries his patented windmill block but hits Lopez in the head knocking a wig off his head. In a shocking development, it is really Brook Lopez! Brook explains that his brother is on a plane to Chicago for “personal reasons”. Adam Silver is livid. He suspends Melo until after the All Star Break. Silver fines Chicago $500, buying Hoiberg’s defense that he couldn’t tell the difference since the guy was once dumb enough to tweet a welcome to Brook when it was Robin who was traded. And finally the Nets have to forfeit their 2021 and 2023 1st round picks because, well, they’re the Nets.

  34. Are you kidding me??

    That last offensive possession was GOOD. Rose drew a triple-team, passed to Jennings, who passed to KP for an open corner-3. If either Rose/BJ shot and missed, with an open KP in the corner, we’d have butchered him today. KP was the best shooter of the 3, in any case, and bricked it, but it’s not on him.

    Melo did not have his hand up, but he did stumble on that step-back by McConnell. Shit happens.

    THE LAST 14 MINUTES WERE THE CULPRIT. Come on, whoever saw the game, saw what Melo and Rose, and everyone else, did. The point is, it’s a sum of possessions that made up the final score, and the Knicks were horrible offensively, and incredibly horrible defensively, in that abysmal 4th quarter.

  35. Am I the only one who thinks Thibs might consider this swap: Noah/Lee/KOQ/Kuz for Pek/Cole/Hill/2017 1st round pick? He’s got his youth core and now needs some veterans. This would be a deep team:

    1: Rubio/Dunn/Jones
    2: LaVine/Lee
    3: Wiggins/Muhammed/Kuz
    4/5: KAT/Dieng/Noah/KOQ

  36. I think the Knicks have finally broken me.

    It’s not even the loss last night.

    It’s that I actually had no interest in watching the game. I didn’t even turn it on.

  37. @39

    While I do think Minnesota would be somewhat willing to part with their 2017 pick, since Rubio is very good and they might want to give Dunn a chance to run the team before drafting yet another PG (and they really don’t need Monk / Jackson), there’s surely going to be better offers if they do decide to trade it.

    btw, Rubio had 17 assists last night, and Minnesota is 7-1 when he gets 10+ assists this season.

  38. Do other teams’ fans fantasize about trading players in the first years of multi-year contracts as much as we do?

    Missing draft picks is the worst, but seeing unrealistic trades in which we’re unloading $200M of salary, all signed last summer, makes me a little sick to my stomach. It suggests to me that they were shit deals from day 1.

  39. Sucking is the appropriate thing to do right now. Hopefully we lose out the rest of the month and Melo waives his NTC and goes to LA or something. We need to suck, keep all of our picks, AND maintain cap flexibility.

  40. Looking at the box score — it is eye opening that our entire starting lineup was a net minus for the game, and in the case of Rose and Melo, REALLY net minus (-21 for Rose, -13 for Melo). This is against the worst or second worst team in the entire league.

    Props to Rose, by the way, for managing a -21 while playing statistically one of his best individual games of the year. His defense must have been extra awful yesterday.

    Very troubling to see our starting front court with a combined 11 rebounds in 85 minutes of play — gave up 18 offensive rebounds to the #22 offensive rebounding team in the league. Good job good effort guys!

  41. I think the Knicks have finally broken me.

    It’s not even the loss last night.

    It’s that I actually had no interest in watching the game. I didn’t even turn it on.

    Take the rest of the season off. I have been there many times. Sad!

  42. Despite going 3-12 in the last 15 the Knicks only have the 13th worst record in the league.

    What kinda shit is this?

  43. Man, reub’s cruise is really long

    He may have to stay in the “Caribbean” (read ‘silently pacing Bushwick Avenue’) until Melo finally shuts it down for the season to ‘contemplate surgery’.

    At that point, all the “positive nancies” (where are they now?) will reappear to claim the team was handiccapped by Melo ‘playing injured’, but next season will be better because Phil Jackson has 11 rings and Noah just needs a bit more time to get used to the subway system.

  44. I do think we should lay off Joakim Noah who has been playing about as well as we could ask for (especially since he started making more than he was missing). His FT% is terrible but his eFG% is above .500 right now and he’s one of the best rebounders in the league. The only thing keeping him back is his foul rate, and I honestly blame Rose and Melo’s perimeter defense for that.

    Lee and Noah were good signings this off season and have been valuable contributors. It’s been Rose, Melo, and KP who have been letting us down recently. I think we should give KP the next 7 or so games off so he can get that Achilles right. Jennings, Lee, Noah, O’Quinn, Hernangomez, and Kuzminskas have been good IMO. We just need better play from our big guns.

    I think we need to be working on a 4 team deal with Boston, Chicago, and LAC where we get back the Brooklyn 2017, Sacramento’s 2017 (owned by Chicago and top 10 protected) and expiring contracts, Boston gets Butler and Griffin, the Clippers get Melo and O’Quinn, and Chicago gets like Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, and the 2018 Nets’ pick. I think everyone would be happy with that.

  45. @49 I root for Milwaukee and Golden State in my spare time mainly because I’m a draft junkie. I really wanted Steph Curry and Jabari Parker to be Knicks.

  46. Courtney Lee on the radio this AM said the focus has to be on defense. at least somebody gets it.

  47. THE LAST 14 MINUTES WERE THE CULPRIT. Come on, whoever saw the game, saw what Melo and Rose, and everyone else, did. The point is, it’s a sum of possessions that made up the final score, and the Knicks were horrible offensively, and incredibly horrible defensively, in that abysmal 4th quarter.

    +1. Breaking down either the last offensive or defensive possession in minute detail is kind of interesting (and I’ll add that Melo has always had horrific ability to keep track of the clock – he often takes an inbounds with like 6 seconds left in a quarter, calmly walks it up and then end up jacking a half court-er, so I’m not surprised he didn’t realize that the shot was coming out in that instance) but ultimately misses a bit of the forest for the trees. That’s basically the whole point of the idea of Pythagorean record – once you’re in a 1 point game in the last 30 seconds anything can happen. If Porzingis makes an open corner 3 or McConnell misses what was ultimately a pretty tough shot even after mediocre defense, some people would probably be telling a different story this morning but ultimately the takeaway should be the same: If the Knicks were good they would not have been in that spot to begin with. The Knicks are not good.

  48. I do think we should lay off Joakim Noah who has been playing about as well as we could ask for (especially since he started making more than he was missing).

    For our pitiful stretch of 3 wins and 12 losses, Noah has actually been the guy we were hoping we’d get. His Per36 numbers for those games are: 11.1/15.0/2.6 with 0.53 TS%, while getting about 24 MPG. He isn’t the same corpse he was at the start of the season, at least. Silver lining!

  49. @54 for me, definitely, but I’d rather try to get Minnesota to take either Noah, Lance or Rose.

    on the second team thing, I recomend the Bucks and the Jazz… the greek freak is so fun to watch and the Jazz have one of the best defenses in the league and quite a few very enjoyable players to watch, like Gobert, George Hill and Hayward…. it’s a total opposite experience to watching the Knicks.

  50. For our pitiful stretch of 3 wins and 12 losses, Noah has actually been the guy we were hoping we’d get. His Per36 numbers for those games are: 11.1/15.0/2.6 with 0.53 TS%, while getting about 24 MPG. He isn’t the same corpse he was at the start of the season, at least. Silver lining!

    I’d argue it’s still a pretty big freaking problem that the C we just gave a big 4 year contract to can only play 24 MPG in year 1 of that deal and that half the time when he comes off the court they have to encase his entire body in ice, but yeah he has at least been using his minutes fairly well.

  51. and Noah seems to be one bruise away from injuring his shoulder every time he makes a play.

  52. Lee and Noah were good signings this off season and have been valuable contributors.

    Noah is playing okay in year one of a four-year deal where he will undoubtedly be getting worse each season, when the team was not going to be a contender in the first year. That was a terrible signing from the jump.

    Lee was a bit of a “meh” signing, in that his shooting skills seem to age better and he cost a lot less, so he was a fair enough signing. Although, again, even with a decent signing like Lee, the question was, “Why sign a veteran to a 4-year deal if you’re not going to be a contender in his first year?”

  53. As for Rubio I’ll say he definitely seems like the kind of guy Phil would target – he sort of perfectly represents the “middle path” Phil has tried to walk since he got here – not really rebuilding (Rubio is a vet) but also not sacrificing the future (relatively young vet on a relatively team friendly contract who could probably be had without sacrificing significant future picks). Plus he plays the game the “right way” and his play doesn’t live up to the name on the back of the jersey, two things Phil definitely goes for.

    Still I don’t really understand why Knicks fans are clamoring for an average starting PG on an ever-so-slightly team friendly deal. What’s the point of that? This team+Rubio=What exactly? What goal does that get us closer to? If we start wheeling and dealing we should be trying to get picks and young players, not mediocre vets.

  54. I do think we should lay off Joakim Noah who has been playing about as well as we could ask for (especially since he started making more than he was missing).

    As well as we could ask? He still has trouble hitting layups, he doesn’t protect the rim, he can’t play more than 20 mpg, and he can’t play back to backs! And this is in the first year of his deal, he’s only going to get worse.

  55. Can we have an unofficial second NBA team to root for?

    You know what’s funny? I have two kids that I could make into Knick fans easily. They come by and sit in front of the tv when I’m watching a game. Yet I don’t really encourage them to root for the Knicks. Because why should I give Dolan two fans that will spend their money on his product?

    Instead I encourage them to watch during the playoffs and we usually pick a team to “root” for. Last year it was the Warriors, and it’ll probably be the same this year.

    Also I can watch pretty much any game I want, and I usually put on whoever will give me an enjoyable NBA experience. It’s so much different watching a game when you don’t have all that baggage accompanying it.

  56. Still I don’t really understand why Knicks fans are clamoring for an average starting PG on an ever-so-slightly team friendly deal. What’s the point of that? This team+Rubio=What exactly? What goal does that get us closer to? If we start wheeling and dealing we should be trying to get picks and young players, not mediocre vets.

    Over the years I’ve seen this as well, and I understand the logic behind it. I call it the Erick Dampier principle.

    First off, the team sucks, so any average player is an improvement.

    Second, once any player puts on a Knicks uniform, they are instantly a better player from the Knicks’ fan perspective. So while Rubio is just average in Minnesota, he’ll be above average in New York.

  57. It sure appears that the ship is sinking. But appearances can be deceiving. We had rough water earlier today but it’s getting smoother by the minute.

    (Not on Bushwick Ave).

  58. I’m in full root-for-losses-so-we-blow-it-up-mode, but when we do blow it up the only guy I see it as definitely be worth while to trade is OQuinn.

    I see the logic in trading Lee, but what are we really gonna get back for him? He was traded for two second rounders last year and I’d say he has the same value right now. Maybe you trade him to a contender for a late first. Is that worth it? Genuinely asking, not saying it isn’t.

    Say we trade Lee and OQ for 2-3 late first rounders/early seconds, we’d enter the draft with a lotto pick, a late first, and 3 seconds. That would instantly give us more young guys than we’ve had in decades so I guess I’m down.

  59. I’d be down with Lee for a late first, but yeah, I agree that it’s not particularly likely. But it’s not completely unlikely, either (like getting a first for Noah).

  60. rubio distributes and plays defense…two thing we dont have at pg. im not saying he makes us contenders but a secondary move to get a pick or two could infinitely improve morale.

  61. I’d be down with Lee for a late first, but yeah, I agree that it’s not particularly likely. But it’s not completely unlikely, either (like getting a first for Noah).

    Late 1st are worse than early 2nds because of the contract guarantee. Since Lee is still “young,” you trade him for whatever you can get for him. He’s going to be 36 years old and making $12.5M by the end of the contract. There is no way you get value from him by that point. Sell now.

  62. And it’s a question of what our other PG options are this offseason. Ideally, we’ll have a high draft pick and take a lead guard there. But is Rubio at that price a better or worse choice than Jeff Teague or George Hill at the max or close to it? (And that’s leaving aside guys like Paul or Lowry, who likely aren’t changing teams, and surely aren’t coming here if they do.) Having a guy who can get KP the ball in the best places to succeed, and who can play defense against opposing points, would help the team, even if Rubio’s overall growth as a player has stagnated.

  63. Although it was nice to see Melo and #25 get what they want against the Sixers in the 1st half, I was really conflicted as a Knick fan for the 1st time ever. And I’ve been a huge Knicks fan since Gerald Wilkins- I even had the black and purple Flights he endorsed. I sat through the Ewing, Spree, Strickland, Jax, and Camby trades and still felt good about being a Knicks fan. Didn’t agree with the trades, but I was still ok. But last night I just couldn’t continue to stomach the fact that #25 started, but he and Melo were doing there thing at the expense of KP. So, I stopped watching at the half. Good thing I did, because I potentially would have lost a really nice TV. KP’s last shot was poor execution, but from what I saw in the first half- he couldn’t get any rhythm whatsoever. And instead of Brett Brown having a really good defensive strategy to knock KP off rhythm, I watched 2 players that can have as big a hand as KP in the team’s future- but they are too stubborn to adapt accordingly. This tells me that they aren’t as much about team as they say. The way I look at it is…do you think Jordan would have rejected a Shaq or Dream if given a chance? Suppose Krause had a chance to draft a LeBron or Anthony Davis…or KAT or KP while Jordan played. Would Jordan not have realized how much easier the game would be for him if one of those guys were allowed to come into their own? As great a scorer Jordan was, he would have never believed he had to score and score to be effective with one of those guys alongside him. I’m just sayin..at some point you hafta use the weapons around you to help the team win, and given the clusterfuck surrounding the team- the 1st half was hard to watch for me.

  64. my argument about Rubio is he’s not an average player, as I have argued many times on this board, he is a good player on a very team-friendly contract for the next 2-3 years.

    I argue for Rubio because I assume that this team won’t be terrible enough to get Ntilikina / Fultz / Ball / Smith / Fox, and this team will pick up another guard who’s probably going to be worse than Rubio + have a larger contract… the Knicks are not picking up Lowry or Paul and Rubio is better than Teague, Jrue Holiday or other guards the Knicks could potentially target… trading for him would also allow the Knicks to probably dump a bad contract like Thomas, Lee or even Noah if something amazing happens.

    if this team manages to pick up Ntilikina or even be bad enough to have a chance on the other guys, of course I wouldn’t want Rubio.

    he’s just the best option I see for the most likely scenario: the Knicks won’t fully tank, they’ll win enough games to pick around the 11th to 13th area and Melo / Noah won’t get traded… in this scenario he provides the Knicks with a good pass-first guard who’s also a plus defender.

    George Hill would be perfect, better than him, but the Jazz are NOT letting him go.

  65. I can watch pretty much any game I want, and I usually put on whoever will give me an enjoyable NBA experience. It’s so much different watching a game when you don’t have all that baggage accompanying it.

    That’s exactly my experience. Keeps me happy – and yes, I still dream of one day the Knicks being a contender. Until then, I root for the Warriors (doing it since the Mark Jackson days).

  66. Derrick Rose and Carmelo Anthony need to go. Disappear and never be heard from again at Madison Square Garden.

  67. I’d rather have Rubio than anyone we have at guard now. He’s young enough to fit long term, makes us better now, and may still improve his shot a little

  68. Melo and Rose are so freaking toxic to this team! At the beginning of the season the ball was moving, but the have slowly forced this bad team into iso ball and the result is a disaster.

    No real or positive change will come before the two of them are gone.

  69. I must say, I don’t recall seeing 2 buzzer beater winners by a trailing team more than 1 time a year. But twice in a week. That’s gotta hurt. It’s not even like the games would have gone to OT, the Knicks were gonna win the games. That’s a 4 game swing in. 2 shots

    It’s an important point for the team going forward. Just like how their pythag suggested that they were getting lucky wins early, their pythag similarly suggests that they’re getting some unlucky losses now. So they’re probably better than this, which is the worst case scenario for the team. Worse than their early start, but better than their awful current streak. In other words, probably a roughly 39 win team.

  70. I feel your pain Mike… thanks for sticking up with this blog for such a long time, it’s been an amazing outlet to let go of our frustrations and find some solace in this complete joke of a franchise.

    perfect words again bruno…ditto on that sentiment…

    All I can say is: don’t sweat it, my fellow knickerbloggers! Enjoy all the great basketball played every night in the NBA. Root for some other team – there is no rule against it. Don’t let Dolan hijack your happiness.

    i really wish i could theo…yeah winning would be nice…hoping for a winner feels good…even when times get rough – the knicks are at least “fascinating” in a twisted, masochistic way (yeah, normally not my preferred method of getting down)…

    i guess you could say those few brief periods of hope and “pride” for being a knickerbocker fan have been few and far between over the last 12 years…i guarantee you that when the next glimmer of hope comes along – i’m gonna latch on as tight as i can and savor each and every second…

    ras, you had it right…in regards to being a knicks fan – i am a sucker…

    not really sure though if knowing you’re a sucker makes you more or less a sucker…at this point in life though – i’m riding on this party bus til the wheels fall off, the steering wheel detaches, the whole engine block drops to the ground and then everything catches fire and explodes…maybe then i’ll think about finding another team…

    players, front office personnel, coaches and even owners move on – fans are the only constant that last through time…

  71. I think it’s all about how much you care about basketball and the Knicks, geo.

    I for one am a basketball and soccer junkie; I’ll never not care completely about the Knicks, Rosenborg BK and São Paulo.

    however, I also love to see good basketball and soccer; so when my teams are sucking (even when they are good, really), I enjoy a lot watching great teams playing those games, even teams who are not the greatest but play really enjoyable basketball and soccer to watch.

    so yeah, I’ll still watch Knicks games, but if the game is terrible I’ll double screen the Bucks or Cavs game on league pass and I’ll watch the Jazz / Warriors / Spurs / Rockets game right after.

  72. so yeah, I’ll still watch Knicks games, but if the game is terrible I’ll double screen the Bucks or Cavs game on league pass and I’ll watch the Jazz / Warriors / Spurs / Rockets game right after.

    just to get the taste of the knicks out of your mouth…it’s important to rinse with some actual basketball :-)

  73. Where is this Minessota thing coming from? Is there a rumor or something else? I’d love to have Rubio, but I just can’t see how the Wolves would do such a trade involving Rose.

    I’d like Rubio on my team, but he alone won’t really move the needle for the Knicks in any direction (tanking or contending). Anyway, he does a bit of everything right and I’ve drafted him in fantasy leagues for years now. He just can’t shoot (even though he has great FT%!) and is not the most durable guy.

    The thing is: why would the Wolves trade him to us? What do we have that may interest them? Rubio for Rose? Nah, they already have two other PGs that need playing time in Dunn and Tyus Jones.

    Ok, so moving Rubio makes sense for them, but not for another point guard. Somebody suggested here Courtney Lee, but he would be a bench player there, behind Zach LaVine, who’s their real SG now, and I don’t see them trading Rubio for a bench player only.

    Then, and that’s my point, the Wolves would surely require someone to help them in the frontcourt. Enter KOQ. They also could want Noah, for leadership purposes (the Wolves are very young) and because of his experience alongside Thibs, but Oaq’s contract is much more valuable than Noah’s.

    So, it’s likely that the Wolves trade Rubio for us only if we give them O’Quinn. Sure, it would be great for the tank if they took Lee and Noah, but in this case I think they would send us Pekovic. In any case, I can’t see them trading for Derrick Rose, as they’re loaded with one-guards. And, even if they have interest, why would they trade anything valuable for him, knowing that his contract will expire in 5 months and he won’t be resigned by New York (i hope so)?

    Long history short, these are the posible scenarios, IMO: Rubio for Lee + O’Quinn (we still don’t get rid of Rose); Rubio + Pekovic for Lee + Noah.

    (sorry for the Ted-Nelson-size post)

  74. the whole Minnesota thing comes from the fact that presumably Thibodeau has any connection to Noah / Rose, and he’s notoriously a coach who likes veterans who are already used to his system.

    otherwise, it’s mostly just random speculation.

  75. Late first is better than 2 seconds precisely because you have the option of the 3rd/4th years – they’re TEAM options. You would prefer not to get stuck in RFA after 2 years-ish like you often do with 2nd round picks. Not to mention you’re likely getting a better player.

    I think it’s reasonably likely we could get a late 1st round pick for Lee – he’s still a good player, plays defense, and does things that a winning team would want. And the reason he only got 2 2nd’s last year is because it was a rental. he’s on a reasonable / tradeable contract and has been extremely durable in his career.

  76. #50….so you want to trade 2 guys, getting paid $30M, one of which has a NTC for two number 1 picks and a bunch of expiring contracts? do the teams you mentioned even have $30M of expiring contracts that they would part with?

    Kyle Korver is expiring, only makes $5M, and fits a need. And all Atl got back from him was a first round pick (that might as well be a 2nd rounder, because Cle will pick last-ish). KOQ’s not getting us a 1st rounder. He has no track record of being good, he’s not expiring, and his beard scratches the shit out of everyone who he man hugs.

  77. I for one am a basketball and soccer junkie; I’ll never not care completely about the Knicks, Rosenborg BK and São Paulo.

    Come on man, Rosenborg?!?! Are you kidding me, Bruno? Have you ever lived in Norway or something like that?

    I follow some soccer teams too here in Brazil, but I do it mainly during the NBA offseason. I’ve never had A favorite team (I like Vasco and Santos), but there are two teams that I definitely “hate”: Flamengo and Corinthians, haha.

  78. Well, I tuned out at the beginning of the season because I had no interest in watching a mediocre team play to a mediocre record (the worst case scenario, really).

    But then I hear about the Rose awol thing yesterday and decide to pop in to KB to see what’s up, and, wow, looks like I picked the wrong time to stop sniffing glue! (aka, following the Knicks:)

  79. KOQ’s not getting us a 1st rounder. He has no track record of being good, he’s not expiring, and his beard scratches the shit out of everyone who he man hugs.

    LOL

  80. @91

    I did, KBrazilian, my father is norwegian (from near Trondheim, where Rosenborg is based) and I lived about 8 years on and off in Norway, before coming back sort of permanently to Brazil.

    and I’m on the same side as far as hating the same teams haha

    Rosenborg is like the easiest team to root for ever, they won the norwegian league 13 straight times in the 90s and are pretty dominant, but well, what can I do, it’s the team I started following as a child.

  81. And it’s a question of what our other PG options are this offseason.

    Who really cares who the PG is next year? Sign a couple of stopgap guys. Do NOT give out a big multi-year deal to some 30-year old vet. This team is miles away from being good. No more long-term commitments to decline phase veterans.

  82. @95

    I agree JK, but do you really see the Knicks doing that?

    there’s one thing which is the ideal course of action, which I agree it’s what you suggest; but the Knicks will most likely not follow that, so it’s worthy discussing who would be a better option in case the Knicks do what they’ve always done.

  83. @96

    You’re right. So we’ve just accepted that the Knicks will eternally make bad decisions, for the rest of time. We’re just debating about which thing might be the slightly less idiotic thing to do.

  84. unfortunately I think that’s the case…

    I really really hope any one of the scenarios people are talking about here happens, because every time the Knicks surprise us it’s just worse.

  85. if we get a halfway decent pg… like teague or dragic.. we can get to 48 wins pretty easily in my estimates… i’m not sure if that’s the right way to go… but the only way we go for a stopgap is if we bring back jennings on another shortterm deal and roll the dice on our draft pick…

  86. The Knicks can’t realistically catch Miami or Brooklyn but they’re 5 losses behind the Mavs for 3rd worst record in the league. Now is the time! Seize this moment!! With Melo and Rose leading the way, our beloved club can finally make some noise in June!

  87. if we get a halfway decent pg… like teague or dragic.. we can get to 48 wins pretty easily in my estimates…

    Oh, come on, man. This is like a 34 win team we have right now. Jeff Teague is going to add 14 wins? This team is a lot more than one league-average point guard away from 48 wins.

  88. i’m saying next year…. we’re probably more like a 37 win team this year even though we’re playing like 34… and adding 10 wins occurs very easily if you replace rose with either of teague or dragic… and add in the year 3 bump from KP and any added contributions from wily and possible outperformance from the draft pick….

    the big piece is the pg… and maybe trying to get to 48 wins isn’t a great idea given the commitment you’ll need to make to either pg but if they perform like they have this year with us… we’ll be pretty good….

  89. Melo and Noah and Lee will have another year of decline under their belts. Justin Holiday’s decent production will have to be replaced. The defense sucks really badly right now, does Jeff Teague fix the whole terrible defense by himself?

    This whole “we’re one player away from being really good” mentality is so delusional.

  90. Well…we lost to Philly- a team we should dominate- in an embarrassing manner last night. No Butler and no Mirotic means we probably lose again tonight and every player and fan should go ape shit tonight should that happen. I totally see myself watching the game laughing like so..

    https://youtu.be/x79V3_VN3bI

  91. You want at least a competent PG who can get KP the ball where he needs it so we don’t retard his development over the next few seasons while we (hopefully) rebuild. Rubio could be that stopgap guy, or someone else could.

  92. teams can improve by 10 wins … it happens all the time…. is it likely? well that depends on how likely you think we can improve the pg position…. and i’m saying if we get teague or dragic… we’re not a bad team at all….

  93. and i’m saying if we get teague or dragic… we’re not a bad team at all….

    no

  94. Going from a bad PG like Rose to a good PG like Teague would win us at least 5-6 more games over the course of a season. Probably more, but that depends on how bad Rose is for the rest of the year.

  95. Well…we lost to Philly- a team we should dominate- in an embarrassing manner last night. No Butler and no Mirotic means we probably lose again tonight and every player and fan should go ape shit tonight should that happen. I totally see myself watching the game laughing like so..

    https://youtu.be/x79V3_VN3bI

    i wonder totes what this site would become if we were able to insert stuff into our posts…i so love digging up relevant images/gifs/meme’s and vids and sticking them into posts…i imagine though the stat stuff would soon start taking a backseat to a barrage of endless images of barfnani and marbury ingesting vasoline…over and over and over again…

    hmmmm, i wonder…

  96. well, according to wp48 Teague is worth about 5.1 wins and Rose 0.2, so it would definitely have a positive impact… but this year has been somewhat of an outlier for him.

    I just want this team to tank.

  97. The guys you look to trade now are Lee, KQ, Jennings, LT, maybe Kuz and/or Holiday. They are the cheapest/best value guys on the squad that can net you something…hopefully a pick of some sort…late first rounder or second rounders.

    Really to me KP and Willie are the only untouchables.

    Rose you just ride it out and let him walk unless you can get Rubio or Dragic. Those guys would be decent starting PGs for us to work with KP while our draft pick PG develops.

    Melo’s gonna be complicated bc of the NTC. The off season might be the time to do that bc its easier to pull off a 3 team deal and teams look to shake it up when they inevitably fall short in the playoffs (Clippers and Cavs if they don’t repeat).

    Noah is impossible to deal now but if he keeps this up through the end of the year you might trick someone into trading for him in the off season. Worse case you just hold on to him. He can at least provide leadership, defense and rebounding and mentor our bigs. Having a few longer contracts like Noah and a Rubio/Dragic while we draft and develop players and KP is not going to be the worst thing in the world.

    TANK is a bad word. Ideally you draft well and a good coach (which I think Horns is) can get a young team to buy in and play well. If they develop faster and we end up in the playoffs next year or the year after…GREAT! If not, continue to draft.

    At least Phil has kept our picks going forward. We can hate on him but if he leaves us, he leaves us in better shape than Glen Grunwald. But now with the few assets we have is the time to sell and get as many picks this year as possible. The rosters are gonna expand and even 2nd rounders are gonna be more valuable.

  98. so, look at this the other way. lets say you are a fan of a team who will pick somewhere between 15- 31. Who on your list would you trade a 1st rounder for? LT, Lee, KOQ, Jennings, Kuz, Holiday? Again, considering that Kover just went for a 1 that will likely be 30th, and he’s better than all those guys, except maybe Lee or Jennings for a team that has a very specific need.

  99. No.
    Replacing Rose with Teague will not make the Knicks into a 48-win team.

    NY is not one mediocre pg away from 48 wins. Stop the delusion.

  100. No to Teague…no no no
    No to George Hill.
    Listen..
    No doubt they’d improve the team. But as many have stated before, we are not one player away. If we were, #25 would have been that one player with the dynamic that he brings to the offense. Now..before yal call me crazy..I do think Hill and Teague are better players right now. If you are banking on one player..specifically at the PG position..then you need a Kidd, a Magic- guys who bring so much to the table that they literally make the whole team better. There is but one PG in the league today who does that. Chris Paul. As great as Steph or Westbrook is- even Kyrie- neither of those guys have ever had the effect CP3 has. Sure..Teague would be an improvement, as would Hill or any of the other names I mentioned. But considering the market pay, would you really give most of your available space to one player who doesn’t have a great and all-encompassing effect on the roster? So what..we give Teague or Hill a huge chunk of the cap just to compete for positions 4-8? Though the draft is deep, there are no Anthony Davis or KAT or even LBJ/Shaq/Duncan/Dream/Ewing types in the draft. So you’d be left with Hill/Teague, KP, Willy, Unknown Rookie with potential, and not much else. However, if we draft a great PG somehow, and let him grow with KP in the same way Penny and Shaq should have grown together, that’s a plan I can get behind no matter the team’s record.

  101. Knicks have hit rock bottom now. I don’t see any miracle on the near horizon that will change things significantly any time soon. Another dumpster fire of a season….
    As I tell my friends who are mostly fans of other NBA teams (Lakers, Bulls, etc…)- You have it easy, it is Hard Work being a fan of the Knicks

    At least they’re not moving. I live in San Diego and we just lost our football team after 56 years, not a good day.

  102. With our ‘big guns’ (Melo, Noah, Lee and Thomas – and assuming Rose is no re-signed) in decline, there is every reason to feel that bringing career mediocre pgs like Dragic, Teague or even Rubio (who is not nearly as good as fans who never saw him play think) will not result in a significantly better team. Replace Rose with any of them and we win 38 games instead of 37.

    Has anyone seen these guys actually play? more than once, more than 5 minutes????

  103. i wonder totes what this site would become if we were able to insert stuff into our posts…i so love digging up relevant images/gifs/meme’s and vids and sticking them into posts…i imagine though the stat stuff would soon start taking a backseat to a barrage of endless images of barfnani and marbury ingesting vasoline…over and over and over again

    Ha! Probably so. I turned on Masterminds today at 2pm, and by 3 I had just gotten 25 minutes into the movie due to the pause button and me laughing hysterically. I haven’t laughed that hard and often at a movie since…Coming To America?

  104. 48 wins isn’t contention… that’s roughly where boston was last year… a decent team that probably gets knocked out in the 2nd round…

  105. Speaking of sucking, the Pacers just allowed the Nuggets to score 140 points in regulation over in London. They scored 112 themselves, so you can’t say they weren’t putting on a show for the Poms.

  106. The Knicks are the #16 offense and the #26 defense. A guy like Teague improves them to what, #12 and #22? Being really generous? That don’t add up to no 48 wins.

  107. @ 113 – I don’t know but I’d be find with second rounders or very late first rounders. Honestly, with the roster expansion happening and the D-League being improved and expanded in the new CBA, player development is going to be key. I will say Willie H gave me hope that we could do a couple of draft and stash Euro guys and a few more second rounders might net us that.

    A package of Jennings and KQ, for example, could be enticing to a playoff team. You get a back up PG and a back up big for your playoff run. Jennings expires and then you have KQ for one year at 4 million which is a great price. You’d have to bring back 9 million in salary. So maybe one expiring and a few second rounders or a first rounder? I’d love to get some in this year’s draft but next year’s would do too. I’d be all about having 2 or 3 second rounders in each of the drafts the next few years. We have 2 this year all ready.

  108. Just want to point out that we’ve actually been pretty lucky with our health this year. As bad as we’ve been, we’re an injury or two to one of our starters from being even worse!

    In other words, don’t get to comfortable on the West Coast, Lonzo and Markelle.

  109. I live in San Diego and we just lost our football team after 56 years, not a good day.

    At least you don’t have to live in a place where the NFL and its owners are living with their hands in your pockets, though. The alternative was being put on the hook for a $650M share of the building of a private stadium. Fuck Dean Spanos.

    And fuck James Dolan, while we’re at it. Fuck James Dolan.

  110. At least you don’t have to live in a place where the NFL and its owners are living with their hands in your pockets, though. The alternative was being put on the hook for a $650M share of the building of a private stadium. Fuck Dean Spanos.

    Quick google search reveals, no surprise, that Dean Spanos is a big republican donor too. Guaranteed he’ll talk your ear off about “welfare queens” taking “government handouts”. Comes time to build a stadium though and if Dean the billionaire can’t get his mouth on the teat he’s taking his toys and going to LA. Seriously, fuck that guy.

  111. hmmmmm, i was thinking if the chargers don’t get a whole lot better, and quick – ain’t nobody going to those games in LA…

    but, after looking at the attendance for last year and seeing them ranked number 31…maybe they can’t do much worse – gotta imagine though the cost of them doing business is about to rise significantly when they hit LA…

    how bout them vegas raiders though…just sounds right…

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