Knicks Morning News (2019.06.21)

  • [Hoops Rumors] Knicks Trade With Kings, Select Brazdeikis
    (Friday, June 21, 2019 12:16:29 AM)

    JUNE 21: The deal is now official, per a press release from the Kings. JUNE 20: The Knicks acquired the No. 47 pick from the Kings and selected University of Michigan forward Ignas Brazdeikis, Shams Charania of The Athletic tweets. Sacramento received the No. 55 pick in the draft and cash, Steve Popper of Newsday […]

  • [NYPost] Where RJ Barrett’s love of Knicks first came from
    (Friday, June 21, 2019 1:36:00 AM)

    These stories don’t get much better than this: The late maternal grandfather came from Jamaica to Brooklyn and cheered for Patrick Ewing and … well let his son-in-law tell it. “I used to sit and watch the Knick games every time I went over, especially when I was courting my wife,” Rowan Barrett told The…

  • [NYPost] When the Knicks knew they were going to draft RJ Barrett
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 8:35:49 PM)

    General manager Scott Perry knew RJ Barrett eventually would be a Knick when he visited their Tarrytown campus June 10 and wowed them. “He came in and won our building over,’’ Perry said on a conference call Thursday night after Barrett officially became a Knick with the third pick in the NBA draft at Barclays…

  • [NYPost] Knicks move up in NBA draft to pick Michigan’s Ignas Brazdeikis
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 8:18:03 PM)

    The Knicks made a draft-night trade and moved up in the second round, but it was not to unload Frank Ntilikina. The Knicks swapped picks for cash considerations with Sacramento, moving from 55 to 47 to select Michigan lefty swingman Ignas Brazdeikis. Brazdeikis was born in Lithuania but grew up in Canada, meaning the Knicks…

  • [NYPost] RJ Barrett’s first night with Knicks couldn’t have been better
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 5:36:15 PM)

    Well, this was certainly a different kind of draft-night moment. At 7:51 p.m. Adam Silver, the NBA’s commissioner, walked to the podium at Barclays Center. This is when some of the best YouTube moments of all have been born: the hometown team makes a pick, the hometown fans take a moment to absorb that pick….

  • [NYPost] ESPN trolls Knicks’ futility on its NBA draft broadcast
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 4:41:49 PM)

    ESPN and a former Nets executive had a little fun with the Knicks on draft night. Before the Knicks selected RJ Barrett with the third overall pick in the NBA draft Thursday night at Barclays Center, ESPN flashed former Nets assistant general manager Bobby Mark’s “Team Needs” across its ticker. Instead of point guard or…

  • [NYPost] RJ Barrett pick sends Knicks fans into unfamiliar frenzy
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 4:39:02 PM)

    RJ Barrett has achieved the impossible — he’s made Knicks fans happy. Unlike four years ago when the Knicks used the fourth overall pick to draft Kristaps Porzingis, who was mercilessly booed by the Barclays Center crowd, the Knicks fans in Brooklyn Thursday night erupted — including Spike Lee — when Duke’s star freshman was…

  • [NYPost] Knicks take RJ Barrett with No. 3 pick in NBA draft
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 3:51:44 PM)

    RJ Barrett is trading in his flashy pink draft-night suit for the orange and blue. Barrett got his wish Thursday and fulfilled his late grandfather Noel’s prediction that one day he would be a Knick. The Knicks, as expected, took the Duke star with the No. 3 pick in the NBA draft at Barclays Center….

  • [NYPost] Warriors floating costly Kevin Durant trade scenario
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:04:37 AM)

    Kevin Durant may have a different path to the Knicks. According to ESPN’s Brian Windhorst, the Warriors are floating the idea of signing the injured forward and then later looking to trade him in a move that would potentially benefit both Durant and Golden State. The Warriors are the only team in the league that…

  • [NYPost] Coby White’s Knicks workout adds more drama to NBA Draft
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 9:45:30 AM)

    The Knicks are making the NBA draft look interesting from the outside. On Thursday, the team brought in North Carolina’s Coby White for a private workout at its facility, per ESPN.com. White, who averaged 16.1 points and 4.1 assists in his lone season at UNC, has been regularly projected to go in the bottom half…

  • [SNY Knicks] Emotional RJ Barrett embraces Knicks and New York at NBA Draft
    (Friday, June 21, 2019 1:47:56 AM)

    The Knicks made their selection of RJ Barrett official and their new forward is ready for the spotlight of New York.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks GM Scott Perry admits RJ Barrett ‘made us really comfortable at No. 3’
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 9:00:01 PM)

    The Knicks stayed at No. 3 and selected RJ Barrett out of Duke — a move many saw the team doing. And GM Scott Perry explains why he was the right man for them in the first round.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks sign UCLA F Kris Wilkes to two-way deal
    (Friday, June 21, 2019 1:18:17 AM)

    The Knicks were not done adding players once the NBA Draft ended.

  • [SNY Knicks] Get to know Knicks second-round NBA Draft pick Ignas Brazdeikis
    (Friday, June 21, 2019 12:16:55 AM)

    The Knicks traded up from the 55th to 47th pick to select Michigan forward Ignas Brazdeikis.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks select Duke G RJ Barrett with No. 3 overall pick in 2019 NBA Draft
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 7:51:38 PM)

    With the third overall pick in the 2019 NBA Draft, the Knicks selected Duke G RJ Barrett in a move everyone was expecting.

  • [SNY Knicks] WATCH: Fans react to Knicks selecting RJ Barrett
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:13:14 PM)

    The Knicks selected RJ Barrett with the No. 3 overall pick, and he was immediately showered with cheers in Barclays Center as he made his way to the stage.

  • [SNY Knicks] Teammates, fans react to Knicks picking RJ Barrett in NBA Draft
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 8:34:54 PM)

    The first three picks fell into place the way most people thought they would, and the Knicks selected RJ Barrett, the player they had seemingly targeted throughout the draft process, with the third-overall pick.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks not expecting ‘any surprises,’ will remain at No. 3 to select RJ Barrett
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 5:50:34 PM)

    RJ Barrett is going to be a Knick. SNY’s Ian Begley is hearing from a source that the Knicks don’t expect any surprises, and they will remain at No. 3 to select Barrett.

  • [SNY Knicks] With Knicks planning aggressive pursuit of free agent Kawhi Leonard, here’s what we know about their chances
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 4:22:05 PM)

    We know that the Knicks will still have interest in Kevin Durant, who is expected to miss next season as he rehabs from an Achilles injury. They are also going to be aggressive in their pursuit of NBA Finals MVP Kawhi Leonard.

  • [SNY Knicks] WATCH: Here are the Knicks Top 5 NBA Draft steals
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 3:19:15 PM)

    As the Knicks prepare to use their two picks in the 2019 NBA Draft tonight at Barclays Center, here’s a look back at their Top 5 Draft steals in franchise history.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks could target these 5 prospects with second-round pick
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 2:51:46 PM)

    We know that the Knicks are settled on taking RJ Barrett at the No. 3 pick if he’s available, but what will they do with their second round pick?

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks hold workout with UNC’s Coby White ahead of NBA draft
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 11:29:15 AM)

    The Knicks held a private workout with UNC guard Coby White on Thursday, hours before the NBA draft.

  • [SNY Knicks] Sources: Grizzlies would need to be blown away to trade No. 2 draft pick; Knicks locked in on RJ Barrett
    (Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:11:15 AM)

    This is all relevant to the Knicks, of course, because they have the No. 3 pick, right after the Grizzlies. And teams have reportedly been calling Memphis about trades for the No. 2 pick.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    202 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2019.06.21)”

    1. For anyone curious, I remain skeptical of RJ Barrett. He has some serious flaws in his game.

    2. Two Canucks (the only thing I could love more is if they drafted two italians),
      two fellow lefties (one of them shoots left and writes right, just like me),
      Frank’s still here…

      Still a lot of work to do but I’m not disappointed as in previous years.

      Only 10 days to free agency and another test for this “surprisingly steady” FO,
      really curious of what they’ll do…

      I’m eager to watch the Summer League, all our youngsters must be there right?
      Barrett, Brazdeikis, Wilkes, Knox, Robinson, Trier, maybe Frank and DSJ… should be fun!

    3. About Wilkes:

      UCLA forward Kris Wilkes has signed a two-way deal with the New York Knicks, according to ESPN’s Tim Bontemps.
      Wilkes averaged 17.4 points on 43.3 percent shooting and 4.8 rebounds during his final UCLA season.
      The 6’6″, 210-pound ex-Bruin impressed at the NBA Scouting Combine, per ESPN’s Jonathan Givony:

      Jonathan Givony @DraftExpress
      UCLA’s Kris Wilkes also dropping glimpses of his undeniable talent by making 3s off the dribble, attacking the rim in transition, and making plays defensively. Had an uneven year, but clearly has some things to work with physically and skill wise.

      Maybe they’ll find another Iso-Zo…

      In the immortal words of the Monty Python “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life”… :-)

    4. Seems like Ignas could be a role player/take some spit minutes. That’s what you want at 47. If you can get a player who stays in the league at all its probably a win.

    5. I admit I know nothing about this Michigan kid, but boy to Mills and Perry have a type:

      Brazdeikis earned a spot in the late second round thanks to his aggressive scoring instincts and toughness, which helped him earn Big Ten freshmen of the year honors. The Lithuanian-Canadian will need to improve his defense and perimeter shooting consistency to stick in the NBA.

    6. Cheers to us, Strat, for still having Frank this morning!

      The fact that no team in the league was offering a decent 2nd round pick doesn’t bode well for our irrational optimism, but hey. It’s better than trading him for another guy who can’t play defense.

    7. I admit I know nothing about this Michigan kid, but boy to Mills and Perry have a type

      And that’s what I was complaining about in the last thread. If we’re honest, though, he looks already better than Knox, so, I don’t know, it’s good? :(

    8. Im almost surprised they didn’t skip RJ because he passes too much. Does our FO know A/S/B production is important for wing prospects?

    9. Iggy (efficient scoring wing who doesn’t do anything else), Wilkes (Inefficient scoring wing) and Hinton (scoring pg with a 1.1:1 AST/TO) all signify to me that the only reason MRob got picked last year is because he was “supposed to be a lotto pick”. This front office is really quite bad at draft talent evaluation. They just want scoring guards and wings!

    10. Feeling good about the draft last night, as well as the 2-way Kris Wilkes and UDFA Amir Hinton.

      I watched a fair amount of michigan basketball this past season and Iggy was really the offensive centerpiece of that team. Knows how to score the ball, has nice touch around the rim, and is really decisive. I didn’t realize what a good shooter he was – Wasserman posted some really impressive synergy numbers for him (92nd percentile in spot up, 84th percentile PNR roll man, 89th percentile as a cutter). Sure he’s not a great athlete and probably will struggle defensively, but has good size, competitiveness, and what else do you want out of the 47th pick.

      Kris Wilkes looks like a crazy athlete with excellent size and quicks.

      Amir Hinton dominated D2 basketball for what that’s worth (cool article here by the way). He only shot 34% from college 3 but shot 89% on 360 free throws (in just 29 games) for a FTA/FGA of 0.71 — yowza. 2.3 steals/game is nice. And he has an NBA body already. All in D2 but still impressive.

      One thing for sure, it looks like Perry/Mills are all about the wings and on athletic upside.

    11. all signify to me that the only reason MRob got picked last year is because he was “supposed to be a lotto pick”.

      I was thinking the same thing!! I think the fact that they acquired one great defensive player was totally by accident.

      This is Isiah-era philosophy. Perhaps unsurprising since Mills learned from Isiah. It’s concerning.

    12. This front office is really quite bad at draft talent evaluation. They just want scoring guards and wings!

      I mean, they came out of the draft last year with Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Allonzo Trier, and you’re telling me you know they’re really bad at draft evaluation?

      Knox was really bad last year, but other than SGA, it’s hard to see a guy that they obviously should have taken over him. Mikal Bridges was so good for PHX that they promptly drafted his clone a year later in Cam Johnson.

      This whole board has PTSD from the last 20 years. If anything, the Knicks have drafted very well over this last disastrous period. It’s just all the other FO moves that have generally been bad.

    13. Brazdeikis Barrett earned a spot in the late second round the top 3 thanks to his aggressive scoring instincts and toughness, which helped him earn Big Ten freshmen of the year high school honors. The LithuanianCanadian will need to improve his defense and perimeter shooting consistency to stick in the NBA.

      Fun fact: Braz and RJ had the same BPM. Not a fan of RJ but his most important attribute is his being left-handed (part of 8% of NBA players). I’m serious here. They have an advantage since defenders are conditioned to playing against right-handed guys and it’s hard to adapt especially in the regular season. Maybe he won’t need great burst because of this? I’d try RJ at the 1 which might minimize his poor 3FG% and optimize his feel for the game particularly in PnR (needs to improve FT% though). RJ/Mitch PnR would be interesting. Yeah he could end up being Brandon Jennings but look at other guys – Harden, Fox, Russell, Simmons, Conley, Isaiah, Dragic. What have we got to lose? An added benefit might be a more switchable defense RJ/Dotson/Frank/Vonleh/Mitch.

    14. @13

      There are NCAA water boys with better statistical profiles than Knox had coming out of college. He was literally the worst possible pick at that position–anyone would have been better, and the guys picked after him up to 21 we’re all better prospects (besides Jerome Robinson). And now they draft more scoring wings and guards who can’t do anything else (RJ excepted of course) when we already have RJ, Knox, Trier (who’s still quite bad by the way, despite our loving him), and DSJ. We didn’t buy or trade for any extra seconds in a draft where they were being thrown around. Why exactly do you have confidence in Perry/Mills draft skills, when it’s looking increasingly like they just got lucky in drafting Mitch?

    15. berman’s article today claims that it was fizdale who “drove home” the knox pick last year. did we know that already?

    16. @13

      Frank, this is definitely not PTSD. People have patterns, and I believe we all remember the acquisitions made by our current front office. Mudiay, Mario, Trier, Knox, RJ, Iggy and Wilkes pretty much all fit the same mold (to different degrees of efficiency). It’s hard not to believe Vonleh and Mitch were extremely lucky accidents.

      As I said, this gets especially concerning regarding the incoming free agency.

    17. berman’s article today claims that it was fizdale who “drove home” the knox pick last year. did we know that already?

      Next guy who dares to call me out when I start on Fiz magic rants will have to fight me in Temecula

    18. Iggy loves it when opponents hate him

      I actually like him. I just don’t understand why we stock up on scoring wings.

    19. Anyway I think we should be relieved that we’re not remotely near the bottom five in front office reliability as of now: have you seen the Suns’ draft day strategy? The Wizards picking Hachimura 9th? The Heat needing at least 7 minuyes (WTF) to select Tyler Herro? The Magic going again for the same type of player – this time coming off an ACL tear?

      Not to mention the colossal cap space blunder by Pelinka, of course.

    20. I remember reading that Perry and company have some sort of spreadsheet that weights all the factors of different draft possible draft picks. When you make such a thing, you have to assign weights to different parameters. If the weights are high for factors that scoring wings are typically good at, then it will rate such players highly. So a bias towards a particular player type will be built in.

    21. It’s hard not to believe Vonleh and Mitch were extremely lucky accidents.

      Especially if you have a preconceived narrative. Hence, all moves that fit the narrative are “typical” and all that don’t are “extremely lucky accidents.”

      Was Kadeem Allen an extremely lucky accident too? Was playing DeAndre and Mitch over Kanter lucky? Where does trading Willy for 2 2nd rounders fit into the narrative? Does Kornet’s shot-blocking count as defense?

      Where does the fact that the entire league values offense over defense fit in this narrative? Didn’t the defensive-minded Celtics just draft Romeo Langford? Didn’t the analytics-minded Spurs just pass on Clark for a more offensive-minded player?

    22. Thanks Farfa for the Iggy link. It was worth the watch. From what I saw, he’s a hard-nose player that loves contact. He plays D, doesn’t mind banging down low, has a step-back 3 and can get to the line. He also seems to be able to find open spots on the floor. I don’t know how his game translates to the NBA but I like the toughness.

    23. The other thing is that since the league clearly values offense over defense right now, would it make sense that lower-cost defensive-minded guys are easier to find outside the draft process?

    24. @21

      I actually thought the Magic played the draft well – too a good player who won’t contribute much next year, likely leaving them in the lottery in a strong draft (probably) at a moment when odds on rising from the middle of the pack are higher. Sort of a Process Lite move.

    25. Z-Man, sorry if I touched a nerve there. A narrative gets only built in reverse from what you see. There’s nothing in the talent evaluation skills of this front office that inspires confidence, but that doesn’t mean they’re the worst.

      The Kadeem Allen “acquisition” is quite clearly a lucky accident, since he was kept as a two-way player until the end of the season (unlike Ellenson and Jenkins, who are by all accounts worse players and don’t play a position of need).

      Anyway I’m not here to say Perry is the worst. He clearly is not. I like his trade savviness and general steadiness he conferred to the team pretty much since day 1. I’m definitely not unhappy we have him. But I like to call an apple an apple, and there are areas of improvement in roster building that are at the same time glaring and huge.

    26. draft last year with Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Allonzo Trier, and you’re telling me you know they’re really bad at draft evaluation?

      Knox and Trier sucked so I’d say the jury is out on that one

    27. I actually thought the Magic played the draft well – too a good player who won’t contribute much next year, likely leaving them in the lottery in a strong draft (probably) at a moment when odds on rising from the middle of the pack are higher. Sort of a Process Lite move.

      Let’s say they’re sub-judice until the start of the next season. If they make a few moves the Okeke selection could make perfectly sense.

    28. I mean, they came out of the draft last year with Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Allonzo Trier, and you’re telling me you know they’re really bad at draft evaluation?

      I don’t think they’re bad at talent evaluation, but I’m worried about their talent acquisition philosophy. They’re identifying decent players, they’re just largely all the same type. It’s like I tell my friend who is 60 pounds overweight: “maybe mix in a salad”. Except in the Knicks case, it’s a two-way player. Or someone who can pass.

    29. They’re identifying decent players, they’re just largely all the same type.

      This looks a wonderful recipe for multiple divorces

    30. I think some people are being unfair to FO at the moment. Knox was a major mistake but there have been many positives. They kept Kornet (posted 1.5 RPM) instead of cutting him like many people here wanted. The WHG trade is looking better. How you gonna argue against Mitch/Vonleh/Trier/Kadeem? Regarding RJ, I would have taken the Hawks offer but RJ may have more trade value if we sign two top free agents. His trade value could be part of pitch to Kawhi and Kyrie.

      My main problem is the terrible player development exhibited last season and Fizdale and his crew’s ability to construct a coherent offense. I read FO fired the head of player development; that plus Miller now on staff are encouraging signs. We’re gonna need an A+ development team if we don’t sign top free agents and some smart coaching.
      – RJ’s got an infinite # of things to improve on
      – Vonleh’s a 3% bump from 3 away from being a quality PF. Guy defends in space, rebounds, sets picks, posts up. His shot from 3 has a nice arc sometimes but other times is flat. Might be fixable.
      – How will they work to expand Mitch’s game on offense?
      – Are they able to get just one of Trier or Dotson to average?
      – Will Fiz figure out optimal way to use Kornet?
      – Frank is better than what we witnessed so far

    31. Maybe Bec you can teach defense and you can’t teach offense.

      I don’t personally think this is true but I feel pretty confident our FO thinks it is.

      FWIW, the consistent philosophy for Perry and Mills has been to bet on athletic upside and trust Fizdale and the development staff to grow them as players.

      The Kadeem Allen “acquisition” is quite clearly a lucky accident, since he was kept as a two-way player until the end of the season (unlike Ellenson and Jenkins, who are by all accounts worse players and don’t play a position of need).

      This makes no sense at all. A two-way contract is maybe the most team-friendly contract that exists out there. Why wouldn’t you keep Allen on a 2-way if you could?

      Jenkins was ineligible for a 2-way as someone with >4 years of service.

      Ellenson’s contract was literally just potential trade fodder if we needed it. It has no bearing at all on whether the FO thinks he is better than Kadeem Allen.

      I agree with Z-man that while Perry certainly hasn’t been perfect, it’s pretty hard to argue with his record so far. Jury is still out on Knox. Mudiay wasn’t a great use of a 2nd round pick, for sure. But other than that, what are people complaining about? He turned the absolutely toxic contract of Carmelo (a contract that other teams had to give up assets to get rid of <1 year later) into Mitchell Robinson. He made perhaps the ballsiest trade of last season by jettisoning a malcontent in KP literally 5 minutes after KP and Janis tried to pull a power play on him (I would love to have seen the look on their faces), and in so doing got a couple 1st rounders and dumped Mills's THJ albatross (meanwhile the Mavs are trying to get out from under that now). If not for KD's unfortunate injury, we very well could have been signing KD and Kyrie this offseason. I think people need to look at Perry outside the context of what happened before he came.

    32. @28 Trier did not suck last year. He shot 39% on threes, 80% from on free throws, showed a good handle, and got to the line. Considering he’s an UDFA that was pretty solid production and he has a chance to improve ( I’d like to see him pass the ball every once in a while). Not every first year guy will play Rookie of the Year level basketball, let’s see how he does this year.

      Knox did suck last year, that we definitely agree on.

      I am cautiously optimistic on Barrett. He’s still very young, if he can improve on his short comings even a little he could live up to the hype.

    33. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Cheers to us, Strat, for still having Frank this morning!

      We won draft night! :-)

      I want to look at him for one more year while he’s healthy. If he doesn’t improve, then we can throw in the towel.

    34. This makes no sense at all. A two-way contract is maybe the most team-friendly contract that exists out there. Why wouldn’t you keep Allen on a 2-way if you could?

      Unless I’m mistaken (which I clearly can be and most often am) Kadeem Allen is an unrestricted free agent. Now, I don’t think there are teams who will offer him a lot more than the minimum, but he might choose to go somewhere else and I’d feel safer knowing that we already have a competent third string PG on our roster for next season, if only because it would signal that Mudiay isn’t in play anymore. And yes, Mudiay is the only one who raises PTSD issues in my brain.

    35. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      I think we know what the issue is with talent evaluation in this front office. They overvalue scoring, shot creation, and athleticism relative to defense. They just talk about defense.

      Setting aside top two way players, if you want defense you have to accumulate players like Frank, Vonleh, Mikal Bridges etc.. They come in with the energy, length, and the instincts to defend multiple positions. Then it takes years of hard to work to hopefully turn them into low/moderate usage efficient scorers to go along with the defense. We get guys like Trier, Knox, Hezonja, Mudiay etc.. that can create on offense but that will take years of hard work (if ever) to not be a turn style every night and score efficiently.

      IMO, you start by looking for two way players, but when those aren’t available (because everyone wants them), you have to have a balanced set of priorities after that. We don’t. We lean heavily towards offense and guys that will never be really good defenders.

    36. This was a solid draft by the Knicks. They traded down to snag the guy they wanted w/o giving up an asset (#55 plus cash) and didn’t risk the #3 pick for even more risky lower picks. Sure, Barrett has his warts, but he also has some very tranferable skills like rebounding, ball-handling and finishing to his left. I like that Iggy is only 20 and a freshman so there’s lots of room for development. I also have an affinity for offensive players that can shoot well from the perimeter and drive equally well with both hands (as opposed to Knox and Barrett, who are both horrible going to their off-hand side.) If he’s a poor defender, it won’t be for lack of toughness…he seems like he likes to mix it up. Haven’t looked at Wilks yet.

    37. i just think our process really sucks…. teams like the raptors and nuggets continually hit doubles every year in the draft and take the right risks and the results are in the roster they have compiled… we managed to do that exactly once.. with the mitch pick… and it’s looking more and more likely that it was just dumb luck…

      i saw on twitter how on the espn coverage they listed our needs as… everything (starters and bench)… well aside from frank… they’ve hand selected this roster… and for the most part there are head scratchers up and down the roster….

      this offseason will likely define if they’re actually decent at evaluating talent and whether they just suck at the draft….. if we don’t grab an a-lister like kyrie or kawhi then their job becomes much harder and that’s where their skill will show…. i’m not all that optimistic…

    38. Yeah, this really is the offseason where we will really know where we stand with Perry. It’s sort of like how Phil couldn’t really be judged until he had a clean offseason to work with….and he then fucked that up (the Afflalo/Williams/Lopez offseason). So hopefully Perry can at least clear the low bar Phil set for him.

      Him having a great offseason would be so, so good to see.

    39. The more I look at it, the more I think Brazdeikis was a pretty good pick. Hilariously, he has a pretty similar statistical profile to Cam Johnson (who went 11th overall and is 4 years older).

      The problem I have is it just doesn’t seem like we were operating like a team that needs to maximize the amount of young talent on the roster. There were multiple salary dump opportunities, second rounders were being sold left and right, and intriguing guys like Ponds and Jontay Porter were undrafted. We didn’t take advantage of any of it!

      I suppose if Wilkes and the DII fellow I’ve never heard of show something I’ll be wrong, but it’s extremely difficult for me to see them being better than a lot of guys who were available. We’ll see, but my opinion of Perry took a fairly steep dive last night.

    40. Unless I’m mistaken (which I clearly can be and most often am) Kadeem Allen is an unrestricted free agent.

      he’s restricted unless the knicks don’t make a QO which i think can be only $50K if he stays on a 2-way or vet min if he switches to a regular contract

    41. I take a bit of solace by knowing that if we traded for 8 and 10 we’d have Rui Hachimura and Cam Reddish by now.

    42. he’s restricted unless the knicks don’t make a QO which i think can be only $50K if he stays on a 2-way or vet min if he switches to a regular contract

      Well then I deserve a harsh scolding, I should have figured he was restricted. Frank is 100% right on this.

    43. i just think our process really sucks…. teams like the raptors and nuggets continually hit doubles every year in the draft and take the right risks and the results are in the roster they have compiled…

      I’m not sure this is a fair comparison. I don’t know if we are matching the Nuggets or Toronto in “hitting doubles” under Perry, but it is too early to tell. Consider Fred Van Vleet. He was signed in 2016 after going undrafted. It’s only last year or maybe this year that he looks like a great pick up. How does his first year look better than Trier’s first year? Trier could just be two years behind him, but not worse.

    44. I’ll say it again about Knox…he is proficient at the single most important skill in today’s NBA: shooting the 3-ball. He also got to the line at a decent clip and should evolve into a decent FT shooter. I thought his overall game improved towards the end of the season…he rebounded better and had some nice defensive plays in transition. The overall numbers were ugly, but at worst, the jury is out on him. He should never have been starting and playing the big minutes he did, but the fact that he survived without missing much time is a positive regarding his durability (as opposed to KP and Frank, who couldn’t stay on the court.) Knox has nice tools and measurables to build on around his 3-pt shot and FTr and he seems like a grounded, dedicated kid who is still both physically and emotionally immature (not in a bad way, just seems like he’d rather play video games than go out with the big boys.) I’m looking forward to seeing whether he added enough to his game and body to become at least a valuable trade asset. Same with Frank, if he develops a consistent 36% 3-point shot and can keep from getting banged up every 5 games, then he’s an asset. Not worth the money we’re paying him, but something.

    45. The more I look at it, the more I think Brazdeikis was a pretty good pick. Hilariously, he has a pretty similar statistical profile to Cam Johnson (who went 11th overall and is 4 years older).

      i’m not some big cam johnson fan but he’s much more of pure shooter. hanzfranzeikis shot well last year but he really doesn’t look like a true sniper. not my kind of guy at all, yells a lot but doesn’t play smart d, never passes, has a fake dribble drive game that shouldn’t be too useful in the nba. kind of like a jerebko with less D. but whatever, not going to get too worked about #47. i just wish perry would stop saying culture in every sentence he utters about player evaluation. this whole shit about these interviews being such a difference maker just spanks of hubris and self deception.

    46. this whole shit about these interviews being such a difference maker just spanks of hubris and self deception.

      FIZDALE MAGIC

    47. How does his first year look better than Trier’s first year? Trier could just be two years behind him, but not worse.

      Or the more likely outcome is that Trier is not an NBA player, like the scores of other young guards in the league who are compared to solid NBA veterans only because of their favorable age.

      Frank could be three years behind Andre Roberson. Trier is a few years behind VanVleet. Knox is a few years behind Tobias Harris. (I don’t know if it’s the body type or what, but they do seem very similar to me.) DSJ is a few years behind Baron Davis. Mitch is a few years behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. (Okaay, the last one seems EXTREMELY likely.)

      We can do this all day, but the numbers say that it’s terribly unlikely that these 20th percentile players become 80th percentile players simply by aging and practicing. Impossible, no. Unlikely, yes.

    48. I think athleticism and length are so important to defense that the players who project well on that end are generally the guys drafted high. By the end the arent many left, except Bol Bol apparently.

    49. “i just think our process really sucks…. teams like the raptors and nuggets continually hit doubles every year in the draft and take the right risks and the results are in the roster they have compiled… we managed to do that exactly once.. with the mitch pick… and it’s looking more and more likely that it was just dumb luck…”

      This is asinine. The Nuggets picked a guy with a broken back over Robinson. That’s smart? A billion other teams passed on Robinson. We could have too…there were offensive guys available, including Trier, who they said they would have picked if all the “smarter” talent evaluators didn’t pass on a guy they thought would be long gone…a defensive guy at that! Now, had they drafted Trier at Mitch’s spot, as they originally intended, then you could argue that they don’t value defense.

      Nobody says that it was a “lucky accident” when the Spurs landed Kawhi after team after team passed on him, or when the Bucks landed Giannis when team after team passed on him. It’s not like Knox was slated to go 25th and Perry reached for him, or that Denver or Toronto (you know, the team that drafted Bruno Cabolco) wouldn’t have picked Knox in that spot.

    50. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      @49

      I haven’t thrown in the towel on Knox either, but I’m concerned about the defensive side of the ball. He’s already too slow to stay in front of quick SFs or switch down and he’s still way too weak to defend PFs inside or switch up.

      If we give him the benefit of the doubt and say he’ll fill out and get a lot stronger over the next few years, then he’s a future stretch PF if we are patient enough to wait 2-4 years. But still, he has some of the worst defensive instincts you are going to find and a suspect motor to match. It’s hard for me to imagine him ever not being a liability on defense. But you are right, he’ll knock down 3s and score.

    51. Or the more likely outcome is that Trier is not an NBA player

      jowles clearly made an early trip to the local dispensary this am…

    52. On the top free agents’ front, why wouldn’t KD stay a Warrior now that the narrative’s done a 180? Guy is perceived as a true warrior who risked everything for the team. And it’s clear GSW wasn’t winning the title without KD. Durant’s gotta realize his injury/age is gonna make it tough for him to be the alpha to take NYK to promised land. He should just take that lucrative 5th year from GSW. He could rehab in NY and focus on his business interests this year.

      So we’ve been promised a meeting with Kawhi. I’m pessimistic about Fiz as a coach but there’s nobody I’d rather have in that conference room than Fiz. Kyrie and Kawhi are inscrutable, it’s possible they could be swayed by FIZDALE MAGIC™. There have been reports that some people in Kawhi’s camp have been urging him to be a Knick. Just get NYK to the finals and his profile and marketability will be in Bron stratosphere (way moreso than Clippers or Nets).

    53. Or the more likely outcome is that Trier is not an NBA player, like the scores of other young guards in the league who are compared to solid NBA veterans only because of their favorable age.

      You are arguing against a point I didn’t make. I didn’t say Trier would be a good NBA player. I said it was too early to tell. Therefore you can’t conclude. Perry is doing worse than other teams with his end of draft and undrafted picks. He might be doing well, we just don’t know yet.

      Actually, Trier’s scoring in his first season was much better than Van Vleets first season. You can check it in Basketball reference.

    54. I’ll say it again about Knox…he is proficient at the single most important skill in today’s NBA: shooting the 3-ball.

      we don’t know if he’s proficient. he shot .343 from 3 last year. that’s below the league average of 35.5% and well below the average of 36.8% for players with a least 300 attempts. there are 198 players who shot at least 33% on at least 100 3PA attempts last year (knox is #160), which comes to over 6 per team. the jury is out.

    55. Fiz is a bit of a snake oil salesman. I see him as a placeholder who will help in the recruiting process but should be let go when the team becomes serious about winning.

    56. Fiz is a bit of a snake oil salesman. I see him as a placeholder who will help in the recruiting process but should be let go when the team becomes serious about winning.

      I think “snake oil salesman” is a bit much (maybe “used car salesman”?), but yeah, otherwise I totally agree. His ability to sell himself is by far his greatest skill.

    57. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Now, had they drafted Trier at Mitch’s spot, as they originally intended, then you could argue that they don’t value defense.

      All due respect, but one player does not reveal a pattern. If there are 2 guys on the board (or available in free agency) and they are generally similar but one is a defender that needs work on offense and one is a scorer that doesn’t defend, they’ve typically gone offense. Just look at our team and it’s defense since they took control. That does not mean they are dumb enough to pass on a much more talented defensive or all around player. They just value offense and shot creation more.

      Honestly though, I don’t think Mitch was some well thought out pick. I think they saw he had freak athletic ability and length (which they DO value) and took a shot. Sometimes you get lucky.

    58. I don’t know about Kawhi, but Kyrie definitely looks like a guy who can be swayed, and maybe this time he could really work his magic.

    59. well their process that skipped robinson also resulted in a really good roster which i would love to trade straight up with ours…. that they overlooked mitch in lieu of porter is not some huge oversight…. i probably would have done the same thing…. and i still would have a much better draft record than the knicks when i look at prospects in my spare time instead of actually getting paid to pay attention…

      and no the jury’s not out on knox.. it was very apparent that when he was drafted that he sucked…. and the only reason anyone doesn’t is solely because of a 3on3 in which he managed to fool fizdale that he was better than he actually was…. ain’t nobody here paid knox any mind in college…. just like how there were a whole litany of ppl having strong opinions about frank’s apparent upside based solely on youtube videos…. ppl’s opinion of knox is purely a function of his draft slot… of which he did not deserve in the first place….

    60. “we don’t know if he’s proficient. he shot .343 from 3 last year. that’s below the league average of 35.5% and well below the average of 36.8% for players with a least 300 attempts. there are 198 players who shot at least 33% on at least 100 3PA attempts last year (knox is #160), which comes to over 6 per team. the jury is out.”

      Fair, the jury is out. But considering that he was 18 when the season started and that he shot 35.4% after the all-star break (when rookies playing big minutes usually hit the rookie wall) and that he averaged 5 attempts a game, I’d say that he is more likely trending towards a league average or above 3-pt shooter. So maybe the word “promising” is better than “proficient” in that context.

    61. We signed some kid named VJ King from Louisville who seems to have been a pretty bad college basketball player. He played 400 minutes last year this one is a head scratcher

    62. well their process that skipped robinson also resulted in a really good roster which i would love to trade straight up with ours…. that they overlooked mitch in lieu of porter is not some huge oversight…. i probably would have done the same thing…. and i still would have a much better draft record than the knicks when i look at prospects in my spare time instead of actually getting paid to pay attention…

      Their “really good” roster is only “really good” because they (by Farfa’s definition) were graced by the “extremely lucky accident” of landing a top 5-10 NBA player deep in the second round. Without Jokic, they are mediocre. And this board has trashed Jamal Murray on a regular basis.

    63. I’m just pointing out that we can use the word “could” even if something is 99% likely to not happen. I like Trier and am glad this team is using roster slots on players under 25 for once. I just don’t think he’s going to make some kind of great leap into being a contributor on a serious basketball team. I hope every one of these players proves me wrong. Especially Mitch. Prove that your ceiling isn’t “6.0 BPM center on the league’s best value contract,” Mitch!

    64. I really enjoyed RJ Barrett’s press conference last night..and that suit was sharp…shaaaap! The kid just oozes confidence that doesn’t seem forced. I hope it serves him well in year 1..he’s gonna need it.

      As far as the 2nd pick, I like Brazdeikis as an energy/instant offense guy off the bench, but I would have LOVED it if we were able to trade up for Paschall instead. I think we need a power guy, and I doubt if DJ would come back to back up Mitch- as Mitch has earned the right to start. I wonder though, does this mean Vonleh and Kornet are coming back to back Mitch up?

    65. i’m not some big cam johnson fan but he’s much more of pure shooter. hanzfranzeikis shot well last year but he really doesn’t look like a true sniper. not my kind of guy at all, yells a lot but doesn’t play smart d, never passes, has a fake dribble drive game that shouldn’t be too useful in the nba. kind of like a jerebko with less D. but whatever, not going to get too worked about #47. i just wish perry would stop saying culture in every sentence he utters about player evaluation. this whole shit about these interviews being such a difference maker just spanks of hubris and self deception.

      I didn’t watch more than a game or two of Michigan so I’m going purely off his statistical profile, but 77% from the line at 6’7″ seems to indicate the guy can shoot, no? He also has a lot of encouraging synergy numbers (43% on NBA 3s, 92nd percentile out of spot-ups, 84th out of PnR, 89th as a cutter per Jonathan Wasserman).

      My strong preference was for Ponds or Porter, but I think Iggy has a good chance to land in a rotation and that’s all you can really ask for at 47. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if he starts taking minutes from Knox…

    66. I agree about the “type” issue with the FO. But the argument in their defense is that efficient shot creation from the wing is the most important thing in today’s NBA. Since our roster is so barren of talent especially in that area they want to take as many swings at getting a player at that position that over performs their projection. So now they have Knox, RJ, Mich kid etc to try and get someone in that position who can be a legitimate NBA starter.

    67. Or the more likely outcome is that Trier is not an NBA player, like the scores of other young guards in the league who are compared to solid NBA veterans only because of their favorable age.

      You are just bloviating here. Trier not being an NBA player is not the most likely out come. A fair comp for his production and style is Jamal Crawford who, when you compare their 23 year old season (Crawford’s 4 full season in the NBA) compare rather well from Trier’s perspective in 2pt%, eFG. TS%, 3pt%, etc Old Crawford managed to bink a pretty good 17 year career:

      https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Allonzo+Trier&player_id1_select=Allonzo+Trier&player_id1=trieral01&y1=2019&player_id2_hint=Jamal+Crawford&player_id2_select=Jamal+Crawford&y2=2004&player_id2=crawfja01&idx=players

    68. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Yeah, this really is the offseason where we will really know where we stand with Perry. It’s sort of like how Phil couldn’t really be judged until he had a clean offseason to work with….and he then fucked that up (the Afflalo/Williams/Lopez offseason).

      The test is not being in this position. The test is what you do when/if all the attractive free agents say no because the team still sucks. That’s the position Donnie Walsh and Phil found themselves in.

      Walsh panicked and signed Amare hoping he would help attract other free agents later and the other decided to rebuild around Melo’s window and roll some of the cap space over.

      The good news is that we have no windows now unless we sign the injured and probably declining free agent star and then feel compelled to blow things up to fit his window.

      The potentially good and bad news is that we have a shitload of free cap space. If no one really good wants it, there are only so many opportunities to take on bad contracts that actually make sense given the duration of the contract and asset being offered to take it. If we do take them, it also means we’ll have a pile of hot garbage on the team for a few years waiting for those deals to expire and won’t be able to add anyone good into cap space. That’s why rolling it over can also make sense depending on the details.

    69. We signed some kid named VJ King from Louisville who seems to have been a pretty bad college basketball player. He played 400 minutes last year this one is a head scratcher

      gonna guess he’s just sl filler. Maybe good locker guy?

    70. I don’t know about Kawhi, but Kyrie definitely looks like a guy who can be swayed, and maybe this time he could really work his magic.

      I heard someone on a podcast yesterday say something to the effect Kyrie was set on going to the Nyets, but when he heard they weren’t interested in him unless Durant came as a package, his delicate sensibilities were hurt and the Knicks are now back as the favorite. I don’t know where these guys get their stuff from, but who knows.

    71. It just occurred that these recent signings of undrafted players are for the purposes of evaluating them in summer league.

    72. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      I’m just pointing out that we can use the word “could” even if something is 99% likely to not happen.

      99% is probably a tad strong, but I get that it was hyperbole. :-)

      I think when a player is very young, you should assume some growth and development within a typical range and keep in mind that this specific player “could” exceed or not reach that typical development level. After that, you debating what “average development” is and does this player have any attributes that make it more or less likely he will develop than the average player.

      For example, if the thing that’s holding a player back is athleticism he probably has a problem. If it’s physical maturity and strength, change his diet and get him in the gym and we’ll probably be fine.

      Personally, I like the combination of intelligence and work ethic more than athleticism and other physical gifts, but if you are giving me the whole package I’m willing to wait.

    73. https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Allonzo+Trier&player_id1_select=Allonzo+Trier&player_id1=trieral01&y1=2019&player_id2_hint=Jamal+Crawford&player_id2_select=Jamal+Crawford&y2=2004&player_id2=crawfja01&idx=players

      And yet Trier is substantially worse in WS48, BPM, VORP… and Crawford wasn’t even good. He posted his first above-average WS48 at age 29, the first winning team he played for. Many of his teams in his first nine seasons were among the worst in the league.

      Crawford is the textbook definition of “gets buckets, gets paid.” If Trier is anything like Crawford, get me off of this ride.

    74. just don’t think he’s going to make some kind of great leap into being a contributor on a serious basketball team. I

      If you define success by Perry in low end and undrafted picks this way then no matter how good Perry is he will probably fail because to succeed those picks would have “be on a seriously good” basketball team. If you mean a true contender by that phrasing, There’s almost no way we will be that in the next two years unless we get really lucky in free agency.

    75. I get that people are questioning Dot, Trier, Knox, Frank, DSJ, RJ. But I think they might be looking at this in the wrong way. Instead of looking at each individual player, perhaps take a broader perspective. A sensible, pragmatic hope would be that 2 of those 6 players could be above average but we’re not sure at all who they are. Paging ptmilo — what would be the probability that 2 of those 6 players would be above average if we use the following prob for each player being above average:
      RJ (50%), Dotson (40%), Trier (40%), DSJ (40%), Knox (40%), Frank (33%).

      Mitch, Vonleh, Kornet already posted average or above average stats. Did people people think that was possible for Kornet or Vonleh? Add 2 of those guys above and 2 or 3 through free agent signings and you’ve got 7-8 above average players. Finding top tier guys is prob 80% luck. Building a roster of above average players like Toronto did pre-Kawhi takes skill.

    76. But the argument in their defense is that efficient shot creation from the wing is the most important thing in today’s NBA.

      Not from players who can’t defend.

      The most important thing in today’s NBA is not being a zero on either side of the ball.

    77. The good news is that we have no windows now unless we sign the injured and probably declining free agent star and then feel compelled to blow things up to fit his window.

      I wish this narrative would die somewhere that Durant is in some sort of decline phase. It is truly amazing how quickly he shed his decline phase the moment the playoffs began. Clearly that entire crew semi phoned it in this year during the regular season.

      Durant averaged 32.8 ppg with a super efficient .661 TS% shooting 43.8% from 3 and 90.3% from the line against the best competition during the playoffs . Everyone should decline like that!

    78. The most important thing in today’s NBA is not being a zero on either side of the ball.

      Oh, how we forget easily “Can’t play Kanter”

    79. The Knicks draft philosophy of focusing on athletic and/or good shooting wings does make some sense. Whether it is logical or not, bigs and defense first guys are seemingly undervalued in free agency and can be had on value contracts. It’s the athletic wings and shooters that get priced above their production, and thus would be more valuable on rookie contracts. It makes sense to try and gather as many of those as possible, and use free agency to get your front-court bruisers. Drafting Knox at 8 was still stupid, though.

    80. Durant is in some sort of decline phase

      He just tore his Achilles and will be 32 next time he takes a field goal attempt.

    81. 2015 NBA draft picks:

      Jahlil Okafor #3
      Mario Hezonja #5
      Emmanuel Mudiay #7
      Stanley Johnson #8
      Frank Kakinsky #9
      Cameron Payne #14

      Nearly half the 2015 lottery picks produced either a marginal starter, a marginal rotation guy, or somebody who really isn’t an NBA player.

      This draft probably won’t be any better.

      Mike

    82. https://twitter.com/kirkgoldsberry/status/1141856260188463106/photo/1

      i’m normally not a big proponent of shot charts but the one goldsberry posted was a bit telling for a variety of reasons…. one… rj got and made the shots he wants and generally has a good feel about where he should be shooting… that’s good… two… he really sucks when shooting on the right side of the court… coupled with his weak drive with his offhand probably means something…. but i don’t view it as major and absolutely fixable but something to monitor as he develops….

      i am pretty optimistic about his prospects although there’s a fair amount of reason to be leery but on the whole he should be a plus…. in a probably rich man’s version of jrich kind of way… he’s coming in with a decent amount of talent and it seems like he has that kobe/jordan mentality of working hard…. he put on a lot of muscle when he came on at duke and really focused on his jumper…. his jumper as inconsistent as it was in duke was probably worse in his hs days…. so if you have doubts about who he is at the moment i think that’s fair… but there’s good reason that he can smooth out those rough edges in his game….

      i have reservations about the rest of the draft process and i definitely preferred culver over rj… but we drafted a decent player and when you draft decent players things can change for the better… and hopefully this is the start of that….

    83. Durant is in some sort of decline phase

      He just tore his Achilles and will be 32 next time he takes a field goal attempt.

      Another strawman argument raised by Jowels. Strat used the verb “declining” and the present continuous tense denotes an action that began previously and continues through the present.

      Durant wasn’t declining prior to his injure so you are FOS per usual.

    84. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      @82

      I’ll grant that Durant was probably not going all out in the regular season this year so he would be fresh and healthy for the playoffs. At his age that’s probably smart because you can’t go all out all year. But he’ll be quite a bit older towards the end of that contract.

      He also just ruptured his achilles and he’ll be 32 when he starts playing again. He’s declining now for sure let alone at the end of the contract.

    85. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Via Berman

      “Brazdeikis was one-and-done at Michigan, started all 37 games, shot 39.2 percent from 3-point range and averaged a team-high 14.8 points — the first Michigan freshman to lead the team in scoring since ex-Knick Trey Burke in 2011-12.

      Defense isn’t his strong suit, but he projects as a nice bench scorer.”

    86. Not going all out and resting yourself more in the regular season in order to be effective in the playoffs is definitely a sign of decline. Just because it was effective doesn’t mean it’s not a sign of decline.

    87. He also just ruptured his achilles and he’ll be 32 when he starts playing again. He’s declining now for sure let alone at the end of the contract.

      Never let the facts get in the way of a good discussion. The average recovery length of an NBA player with this injury is 269 days. Kobe and Wes Mathews both made it back in less than 8 months so it is not unreasonable to expect him to be fully ready around March 15th.

      Durant has a much lighter build than anyone on this list and uses explosion less, too. His game is predicated on extreme skill , height and length and less so on power, bullying people and explosion.

      https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-kevin-durants-injury-means-for-kd-the-finals-and-free-agency/

    88. Not going all out and resting yourself more in the regular season in order to be effective in the playoffs is definitely a sign of decline. Just because it was effective doesn’t mean it’s not a sign of decline.

      Not going all out in meaningless game is smart. Christ the great Pop and all smart organizations don’t even dress players every night just for this purpose.

      And pray tell how much did Kevin “decline” this past season. Or let me ask it another way. On June first 2019 how many players in the NBA/world were better than Kevin Durant? One? Two maybe? That’s some bloody decline!

    89. I like Perry, and think he’s been a relatively alright GM. He makes good moves at the margins, usually (Trier, Kornet, Mitch). I’m just questioning his draft philosophy of “all the athletic one way wings, please”. When it comes down to what we’ve spent our picks on, rather than what we’ve signed on UDFA, it’s overwhelmingly the case that we’ve gone for one way scorers. And that’s pretty Knicksy. He’s not a bad gm, but I definitely think his biggest weakness is draft night decision-making.

    90. Five thirty right on R.J. Barrett.

      Some see DeMar DeRozan. Others see the most overrated player in college basketball. In other words, he’ll fit in nicely in New York.

    91. Durant wasn’t declining prior to his injure so you are FOS per usual.

      Here are some BPM numbers on the last three years of Kevin Durant.

      BPM, regular season

      8.0, 5.6, 4.3

      BPM, postseason

      8.7, 6.4, 4.7

      Who’s full of shit, again?

      power, bullying people and explosion.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMeGQfVXcBg

      Are you serious? This dude is a downhill dunker in traffic. He uses his amazing length and height WITH his explosiveness. He’s incredibly aggressive and athletic. The idea that he’s some kind of Andre Miller seven-footer is patently absurd.

      The decline phase of Durant will still be MUCH better than most NBA players. He’s still in decline AND COMING OFF ONE OF THE WORST INJURIES A BASKETBALL PLAYER CAN HAVE.

    92. RJ attempted 237 3 point shots in college, DeRozan attempted 36. RJ had 164 assists, DeMar had 51. They’re not that similar-RJ was a significantly better college player.

    93. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Never let the facts get in the way of a good discussion. The average recovery length of an NBA player with this injury is 269 days. Kobe and Wes Mathews both made it back in less than 8 months so it is not unreasonable to expect him to be fully ready around March 15th.

      If you think he’s going to rush back to play with this garbage Knicks team after rushing back may have contributed to the injury to begin with I think you are very likely to be wrong. It’s more likely to be just like KP. There’s no point to pushing for an early return date when the team stinks and would be better off losing games. It would be more likely with the Warriors, but even there I doubt it. At his age, he’s declining from here.

    94. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      I’ve come to the conclusion that RJ Barrett is either going to become a stud player or an overrated scorer we all hate within 2 years.

      One the one hand I see passing and rebounding skills at the SG position that give me visions of occasional triple doubles and a generally diverse set of skills. One the other hand I see an overly cocky player with a scorer’s mindset that can’t shoot from outside, doesn’t use his play making abilities to their potential, and lacks effort on defense.

    95. Five thirty eight compares Barrett to both Carmelo and Diangelo Russell as similar players. Those are two quite different players, so it seems to me there is no good comp for him. But either one is reasonable or very good value for the number three pick.

    96. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      By the way, it was reported again today that it was Fizdale that pushed hard for Knox over Bridges or whoever else they had in mind. So for better or worse, they were on the fence and that one is on Fizdale.

    97. I’m okay with last night’s draft. Iggy is hard nosed, enthusiastic guy.

      My only gripe is why not just buy a 2nd round pick rather than spend $ to just move up? Spend a bit more and take a second flyer on someone.

      The big question is now what will they do with all the cap space? If they can talk Kawhi into coming, then bully on them! If not, time to start renting cap space. No, I don’t want the Kevin and Kyrie Show.

      Play all the kids! Commit to the long haul, b/c I don’t see any true shortcut ahead.

    98. You know what’s great, though? Not signing Durant to a max and then having his Achilles blow up.

      hard nosed, enthusiastic guy.

      I’m fine with it too, but I’m getting some real Ron Baker vibes out here.

    99. I haven’t looked intensely at this, but to me Trier feels a bit like Nate Robinson is his ceiling, which maybe saying a bit too much for Trier…but his first year stats comport well with Robinson’s lifetime

    100. Or someone who can pass.

      Is this not the single thing that Barrett is supposed to actually be good at?

      Bron made some good points about development above. If the FO is recognizing that development was not what it should have been last season that’s a good sign.

    101. I’m actually with HCJ.
      The Knicks simply cannot give a max contract to Durant and his repaired achilles.
      Paying for past performance is one thing, particularly for Durant, who even in decline is a top 10 player.
      But with the worst possible injury at 32, that would be foolish, imho

    102. Here are some BPM numbers on the last three years of Kevin Durant.

      So we can cherry pick a single metric and make a concise generalization from that , eh!

      I guess Mickey Mantle was in his decline phase after 1956 because he never matched his ridiculous Triple Crown year.

      I will stipulate he will never have another season like 2014 but if he is still a top 5 player in the game (prior to injury) aren’t you stretching the definition of decline?

    103. Its generally agreed upon that the best players in the league are worth significantly more than the max. Isn’t it possible he declined and is still worth the max. We could sign him for a 1yr deal with a player option. It mitigated the downside since we aren’t competing this year or likely next year either. The 1+1 seem like player favorites anyway.

    104. The Knicks are mired in a seriously bad place, consider:

      Memphis has sucked for about two years and managed to reload with Jaren Jackson, Ja Morant, and Clarke.

      New York has sucked this entire century and look at their roster.

      Fuck me . …..Dolan’s Razor, it’s a real thing

    105. Some comps for RJ:

      The jump shot of Ben Simmons
      The passing ability of Carmelo Anthony
      The basketball mind of Stephon Marbury
      The finishing ability of Frank Ntilikina
      The defense of Enes Kanter
      The toughness of Andrea Bargnani

      We’re doomed!!

    106. Is it good to tear your achilles? Dr. Neptune investigates.

      As probably the only person here who has managed professional athletes (race horses) for 40 years, I can tell you from experience load bearing flexor tendon injuries suck. They are generally not career ending.

      And… I am not advocating signing Durant. I was the guy for the past few days advocating trying to buy up anyone’s first rounder that wanted to keep under the tax line (Charlotte) or wanted more space for UFA’s. I am perfectly happy with that.

      However it seems as though (by their actions last night) they feel they have a good chance of still signing Durant and KI. I don’t think that is a terrible idea.

      As much of a loon as Kyrie seems to be, he is still one of the top guards in the game in his prime. He is worthy of a max. Even an injured Durant I see as coming back as a Reggie Miller on steroids type player. Otherworldly shooters like Durant and Miller age gracefully ( reggie had a ws/48 = .189 and a BPM =2.9 as a 38 year old FFS!). They have similar skill sets and physical stature except Durant was better at all phases of the game. at 6′ 11″ Durant will never have difficulty getting his shot off and his range is virtually unlimited. That will not change. His defense (as it is ) is predicated on absurd length, not strength or quickness.

      The history of Achilles injuries is known as far as I know so the re-injury risk is minimal and I think Durant will still be an excellent player for the next 4 years. Will he be peak Durant…. no, but he will be the best player to play here since peak Ewing….. yes. The combination of those two if any of the current players progress will give us 3 excellent seasons of hoops around here.

    107. The toughness of Andrea Bargnani

      Not really fair, Bargs was pretty tough. I mean, he really hit the floor HARD.

      Thank you, try the veal….

    108. Its generally agreed upon that the best players in the league are worth significantly more than the max. Isn’t it possible he declined and is still worth the max.

      The whole point of signing megastars like Kevin Durant is that they’re supposed to give you SURPLUS value beyond the max. If you pay Durant $40M and he gives you $60M of production, you’re winning. If you pay him $40M and he gives you $40M worth of production, not so much. If you pay $40M and get $30M of production, that’s not a good contract.

    109. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Memphis has sucked for about two years and managed to reload with Jaren Jackson, Ja Morant, and Clarke.

      New York has sucked this entire century and look at their roster.

      You are making a good point. It’s easy to evaluate the moves that were made. What’s more difficult is to evaluate the moves that were NOT made. We obviously have not made any moves that moved us forward significantly recently.

    110. If you think he’s going to rush back to play with this garbage Knicks team after rushing back may have contributed to the injury to begin with I think you are very likely to be wrong

      Who said anything about rushing back??? I merely stated the facts that the average rehab time for these injuries is much less than everyone is assuming. I assume Wes Mathews and Rudy Gay took the prudent approach with their careers, too…. don’t you think. The average becomes much less if you exclude Cousins (100 days longer than average) who is a load of a man and likely didn’t take his rehab as seriously as some others. Plus I;m sure employer who has 150M wrapped up in him will insist on him being fully healed and won’t throw him out there half assed like GS.

    111. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Who said anything about rushing back???

      My point is that average is not relevant when you are a superstar on a brand new max contract and there is absolutely no basketball reason to come back before the end of the season. You err on the side of caution like they did with KP even though based on averages, KP should have been back last year.

      Maybe I’m wrong. I’m not an MD. I’d just be shocked if he comes back next year unless “maybe” it’s with the Warriors.

    112. So we can cherry pick a single metric and make a concise generalization from that , eh!

      RAPM showed a precipitous dropoff in 2017-18. I don’t have 2018-19 numbers but I’d be amazed if he were still top 5.

      I guess Mickey Mantle was in his decline phase after 1956 because he never matched his ridiculous Triple Crown year.

      I’m going to cite the bullshit asymmetry principle in my decision to totally disregard this ridiculous comparison.

      I will stipulate he will never have another season like 2014 but if he is still a top 5 player in the game (prior to injury) aren’t you stretching the definition of decline?

      No, I’m not. It’s like you fail to see that there will be emerging superstars in this league for the duration of Durant’s contract, who will supplant the old guard. Durant is not going to just be this fixed-value entity in a declining league. We’ve now got multiple 6’10″+ point guards and a 19-year-old Charles Barkley clone and Pascal Siakam looking like Scottie Pippen yet to hit his peak. We’ve got James Harden scoring 35+ on excellent efficiency for like months on end. And the future stars keep pouring in, year after year, to diminish the relative value of those aging superstars. This happens to everyone. Durant is no exception, especially post-injury.

      Durant must remain a top-10 player if he wants to earn the enormous max he’s entitled to. Hell, he was on a team that nearly weathered the loss of an elite two-way player on their way to another championship. What do you think it’ll be like for the lowly, talent-bereft Knicks if Durant ends up a ~3 BPM player instead of the ~8 you’d expect from him “before decline?”

      I don’t see how you can look at a 32-year-old with a ruptured Achilles and see “return to form” in the forecast. It defies all reason, no matter how good he once was.

    113. The whole point of signing megastars like Kevin Durant is that they’re supposed to give you SURPLUS value beyond the max. If you pay Durant $40M and he gives you $60M of production, you’re winning. If you pay him $40M and he gives you $40M worth of production, not so much

      Yes and every 15 pick in the NBA draft should be Kawahi. If you spend 40M and get 40M of return you are generally far ahead of the game. The team that signs Kyrie to a max will be just fine. Its the teams that sign Noah and Hardaway to 72M contracts that are in trouble.

    114. If you pay $40M and get $30M of production, that’s not a good contract.

      Unless it’s on a team that needs every bit of help it can to go from, say, 55 wins to 62 wins, and also has no alternate uses for that money, like the Warriors. The issue for the Warriors is, “Do we want Durant to give us 5 WAR for $70M in salary and tax money, or do we want to save $70M and get absolutely nothing more than an open roster slot and a minimum contract in return?”

      The Knicks have a tabula rasa right now. Durant is a final piece for a deep, talented playoff team, not a foundational piece on a team full of upside-laden, intriguing, high-ceiling rookie-contract players who throw bricks like their lives depend on it.

      He is not a franchise player anymore. You cannot do a rebuild with Durant as the centerpiece.

      Yes and every 15 pick in the NBA draft should be Kawahi. If you spend 40M and get 40M of return you are generally far ahead of the game. The team that signs Kyrie to a max will be just fine. Its the teams that sign Noah and Hardaway to 72M contracts that are in trouble.

      If you spend $40M and get $40M back, you are not far ahead of the game. That’s a ridiculous assertion. Categorically false.

    115. bobneptune

      do we have any sense of guys who tore their achilles and were significantly degraded?
      I ask sincerely because the fear factor on the achilles seems awfully high for an injury were people typically can return sooner than what the expectation is.
      It seems like the reaction and what you say the expectation should be is not coherent.

      So I just don’t know.

      I would say that while Durant appears to be a splendid splinter, he’s still 6’11 and 240. By comparison, in his prime Ewing was 7’1 and 255.
      These are big people these tendons are holding together.

    116. I would say that while Durant appears to be a splendid splinter, he’s still 6’11 and 240. By comparison, in his prime Ewing was 7’1 and 255.

      I don’t care what their listed playing weights were/are the only way Ewing and Durant where ever within 15 pounds would be if you weighed Durant on earth and Ewing in the moon :-)

    117. HCJ,
      Two things jump out: the guys older than 30 take longer; and Wilkins was a beast…

    118. What do you think it’ll be like for the lowly, talent-bereft Knicks if Durant ends up a ~3 BPM player instead of the ~8 you’d expect from him “before decline?”

      I just love how you a wed to your beloved BPM like it is somehow the stat stat to rule them all. I’m surprised to find Frodo Baggins and Sam aren’t searching all over Middle Earth for it :-)

      You realize BPM has Nikola Vucevic rated (#10) ahead of Steph Curry, Paul George, Kawhi, Lillard and Durant in the top 20 right???? Well played BPM…..

    119. Bargs was pretty tough. I mean, he really hit the floor HARD.

      +1 That was an epic crash

    120. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      I don’t care what their listed playing weights were/are the only way Ewing and Durant where ever within 15 pounds would be if you weighed Durant on earth and Ewing in the moon :-)

      lmao

      Maybe Jupiter and the moon.

    121. That’s not a comprehensive list, but the pattern seems obvious.

      I’m still irked at the inclusion of all the older players who clearly had access to much worse surgeries than the players of today. This isn’t to say that Durant will heal awesomely, but I just don’t see the point of including data points for medical recoveries from 20 year ago. They’re essentially immaterial.

    122. The Knicks draft philosophy of focusing on athletic and/or good shooting wings does make some sense. Whether it is logical or not, bigs and defense first guys are seemingly undervalued in free agency and can be had on value contracts. It’s the athletic wings and shooters that get priced above their production, and thus would be more valuable on rookie contracts. It makes sense to try and gather as many of those as possible, and use free agency to get your front-court bruisers. Drafting Knox at 8 was still stupid, though.

      I don’t get this idea that we should go for the hard-to-find scorer bc defenders are undervalued and easy to find.

      You don’t balance out an offense only guy with a defensive minded guy. That actually creates two holes.

      Athletic scorers aren’t actually hard to find. They’re just not being valued around the league if they can’t defend. Allonzo Trier didn’t go undrafted bc of some freakish accident. His type is not wanted any more.

      Same with Brandon Clarke. Outstanding offensive player but he didn’t slip to the 20s bc front offices don’t understand analytics. They’re worried about his ability to defend.

      The league is about two way players, and we’re still targeting scorers. To top it all off, we often get the guys who suck at defense *and* can’t pass.

    123. I’m stunned to see how many people think that signing Durant would be a good idea. Despite medical advances, a torn Achilles is the worst injury an athlete could suffer. There is a 90% chance that, in two years, his contract would be a complete albatross.

    124. begley’s article today very specifically claims that if we miss on kyrie/durant/kawhi, not only will we not sign long term deals with plan b guys (already reported) but we also won’t use cap space to take bad contracts and acquire assets. has that been reported already?

    125. Brian,

      in NBA players, Amin et al. [81] found that 7/18 players (39%) who suffered an Achilles rupture and underwent surgical repair from 1988 to 2011 never returned to play in the NBA. Those who did return to play were also found to have a significant decrease in both playing time and performance.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5344857/

    126. begley’s article today very specifically claims that if we miss on kyrie/durant/kawhi, not only will we not sign long term deals with plan b guys (already reported) but we also won’t use cap space to take bad contracts and acquire assets. has that been reported already?

      So, just put some money in Dolan’s pocket? What’s option c?

    127. I’ve tried to articulate this previously but probably did so poorly. If we were going full rebuild then it’s probably a minimum 3 year time horizon. So there is a scenario where if you sign Durant, let your existing young players mature another year to analyze their ability and keep all your assets (6 1st rounders and 6 2nd rounders over the next 4 years) that you can quasi compete and put a better shine on the franchise w Durant for the final 3 years of his deal while continuing the rebuild in the background. You can use the remaining cap space on expirings to gain more assets or on young promising players like Russell or you can roll the dice on Kyrie as well. The only real downside to that strategy is your own picks aren’t as good but one assumes they aren’t going to tank forever anyway so you don’t lose a ton of value. The idea that HCJ espouses about there always being the next gen of talent still works bc that talent will be there in 4 years after some middling success with the additional youth on the roster from those picks. If it turns out KD is still top 10 then bonus and sell the assets and compete for a title. Does this make any sense?

    128. option c is supposedly a bunch of 1 year contracts to “maintain flexibility.” it’s going to be hard to find that many derrick williams and mario hezonjas but if anyone has the guns for it…

    129. Same with Brandon Clarke. Outstanding offensive player but he didn’t slip to the 20s bc front offices don’t understand analytics. They’re worried about his ability to defend.

      This is the first I’ve heard of this concern about a 6’7.25” guy with 6.3 blk per 100 and the third-ranked DBPM in the NCAA being unable to defend. Synergy had him 99th percentile offense and 91st defense.

      The issue with Clarke is that he looks like a smallball 5 on offense and unable to guard bigs on defense. He would be an exceptional defender against SG, SF and PFs. Taller PGs and small Cs too.

    130. If they go with Option C, the “Arron Afflalo” plan, then Scott Perry is a dipshit and will never accomplish anything here. Which, to be honest, is pretty likely. He would just be the next in a long line of idiots who doesn’t understand asset management or opportunity cost.

    131. n NBA players, Amin et al. [81] found that 7/18 players (39%) who suffered an Achilles rupture and underwent surgical repair from 1988 to 2011 never returned to play in the NBA. Those who did return to play were also found to have a significant decrease in both playing time and performance.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5344857/

      That’s what I mean, though – what is the point of including players from 1988 in such a study for today? Theres is no way that Kevin Durant and LaPhonso Ellis had the same surgery. Why compare their recovery? Rudy Gay and DeMarcus Cousins are the better comparisons.

    132. It wouldn’t be horrible to maintain cap space into the season. When it gets close to the trade deadline there are going to be teams that want to make a deal, and opportunities may arise where us having cap space is a key to getting something good.

    133. Option C sucks. 1-year deals just clog cap space and prevent deals renting cap space from happening. Also, if the guy is good, he is on the market in 1 year at a higher basis.

    134. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      The league is about two way players, and we’re still targeting scorers. To top it all off, we often get the guys who suck at defense *and* can’t pass.

      Exactly.

      The league is valuing individual defense, ability to switch, ability to space the floor, length, and other attributes not because everyone is stupid, but because they have proven to have value.

      That’s what I am always whining about. We need two way players.

      The popular metrics tend to focus on what’s available in the boxscore, but since it’s incomplete, if a particular player is heavily weighted with things that are not included he becomes underrated and vice versa.

      Let me make a prediction for 2-3 years from now. I’ll probably be wrong, but so be it.

      Now that everyone understands the value of a 3 pointer and getting to the rim, teams are trying to design defenses that take away the paint and include players that can switch and close out on the 3 point line better. Once they get to that stage, you may need a couple of guys that are elite in the mid range again. Players will be open in that area more often and easy looks will be tougher to come by from 3. Then players will start working their tails off on getting into the mid range and knocking down shots at better than a 50% clip. Some will get there the same way more can shoot at a 40% clip from 3. Then will also draw more fouls than they do way out on the perimeter. That will get them to the FT line more and put the other team in the penalty quicker with their starter on the bench in foul trouble and so on. The values will change again.

    135. so the thing with achilles tears is that yea a lot of ppl don’t come back and get out of the nba but those guys were bad players to begin with… and when you’re on the fringe or just not very good to begin with you can’t really afford to lose any athletic ability….

      someone like kobe might not have been necessarily in sharp decline already but he was at an age where he could have seen a large decline just due to age…. that he tore his achilles and the age he was at… he was probably not likely to see anything close to where he was before….

      Durant is significantly better than kobe…. and while it’s hard to imagine him getting back to peak durant … he will probably be still a fine player….

      for all the folks who says chris paul’s contract is an albatross…. the guy still put up a ws48 of .172 and that’s still one of the best pg’s in the league….. durant doesn’t have cp3’s injury problems… achilles are worse…. but it’s easy to see him still perform at a high level.. maybe not mvp level but still one of the best sfs in the league….

      whether that’s worthy of a max contract…. i’m still not sure…. but i don’t think it’s a slam dunk that it’s a bad idea… although i was never really big on maxing kd to begin with but that’s more for watchability reasons than the merits….

    136. Some comps for RJ:

      The jump shot of Ben Simmons
      The passing ability of Carmelo Anthony
      The basketball mind of Stephon Marbury
      The finishing ability of Frank Ntilikina
      The defense of Enes Kanter
      The toughness of Andrea Bargnani

      that’s funny :)

    137. @19 that’s an hour and a half from me. And you did call for Fiz’s head during a season where we clearly benefited from losing. So bring it on!!!

      (J/k. Your recaps were great)
      (P.S. Every time I see signs for Temecula on the highw..err I mean freeway, I think about this running gag that started on P&T)

    138. djphan,

      I don’t think it’s a slam dunk bad deal either. We are speaking of one of the greatest players to walk the earth, so there is a very good chance my reservations are unjust.
      I’m just sick of the Knicks paying max guys on the back quarter to third of their careers, let alone a guy on a catastrophic injury.
      $38.15 million is a lot of money to pay a guy on rehab

    139. plan c was always an option for moving forward…we got teased a bit with option a, and, now going with the kids may seem like a bit of a letdown…

      derrick
      sasha
      brandon
      michael
      alexey
      mario

      and many others have all had their knick moments to cause us to cheer…like a used car lot on a street with a bunch of much better, newer dealerships – you need to somehow entice folks to pay attention…

      which is to say – good chance we don’t see more than 30 wins in a season until the 2021 – 2022 season…what’s another few years, right?

    140. Was not real happy to read Begley’s thing about the Knicks not renting cap space.
      What I don’t know is exactly what that means.
      Would they take on someone like Marvin Williams, who is theoretically still a useful player while getting an asset?
      Do they just mean that they’re not taking on contracts that go into 2020-2021?
      Or are they totally opposed to the idea of renting cap space? That would be super dumb.

    141. Okay, if “Plan C” is a real thing, and the Knicks do it (as they did during Phil’s tenure), then it is time for a little Common Denominator analysis. Who’s been here through all of this? Dolan and Mills.

      I’ll actually start considering the idea that Phil was just a figurehead while here, and Mills really made all the calls. Phil collected his paycheck, showed up for events, did a few stupid tweets, then hit the bong or whatever. He was sort of like Henry Blake in MASH, but not nearly as likable. Frank Burns (Mills) is really running the Knicks’ show.

      Please don’t let this be the case.

    142. It’s the Knicks, I get it….

      But signing one year contracts for B or C-listers with the crap team we have rather than renting cap space for a year when people desperately need it seems way too on the the nose.

    143. He was sort of like Henry Blake in MASH, but not nearly as likable. Frank Burns (Mills) is really running the Knicks’ show.

      :)

      wait a minute – is fiz hotlips?

    144. Despite having a lot of qualms with his talent evaluation, I’ve thought since his arrival that Scott Perry understands the win curve and the general market dynamics of the NBA.

      If he goes all Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams on us instead of trying to find literally any asset using the cap space, he’ll have proven me wrong. There is simply no reason to sign contracts like those. None at all.

      Maybe next offseason he’ll have his own version of the Joakim Noah/Courtney Lee/Derrick Rose fiasco, starring DeMar DeRozan and Paul Millsap.

    145. As far as the 2nd pick, I like Brazdeikis as an energy/instant offense guy off the bench, but I would have LOVED it if we were able to trade up for Paschall instead. I think we need a power guy, and I doubt if DJ would come back to back up Mitch- as Mitch has earned the right to start. I wonder though, does this mean Vonleh and Kornet are coming back to back Mitch up?

      For my money, I think the MitchRob, Kornet, Vonleh trio is the best part of our roster as it is currently constructed by far.

      Rudy Gay and DeMarcus Cousins are the better comparisons.

      This doesn’t say much. Cousins looked shot in the postseason. He couldn’t move laterally to defend anyone.

    146. wait a minute – is fiz hotlips?

      Lol. Maybe.

      Actually, if we go back further, there’s Anucha Browne Sanders. But to do that we’ve gotta find a slot for the despicable Isaiah Thomas… ugh.

    147. Maybe Perry means they will move on to “promising player” signings like D’Angelo Russell – guys that are young enough to be fairly easily dealt again if need be. Maybe Brogdon fits that mold as well, idk.
      If they don’t get those guys either, then they’ll have to fill cap space with guys like Hezonja who basically want an extended tryout. Those suck, but they’re better than giving an average guy a 4-year contract for big money.

    148. For my money, I think the MitchRob, Kornet, Vonleh trio is the best part of our roster as it is currently constructed by far.

      ::sigh:: because Vonleh’s an UFA and Kornet’s a RFA. Lot of teams with cap space out there. Not sure what to expect. I hope we’re able to retain both of them, each receiving maybe something like 4-5m/yr. Shame Perry didn’t get a team option on Vonleh’s deal (we’d then have him cheap for this season and early bird rights next summer). I’m not even sure Perry wants to re-sign either of them. Dolan’s Razor mandates we lose both of them and in hteir places sign DAJ to a 1 year 20m contract w/player option and Morris for 25m on 1-and-1 deal.

      I don’t think Dolan wants to put another 17 win team on the court. And he might be right that would be asking too much patience of Knick fans, especially if Nets are getting better every season. Look for DAJ, Rubio (or Collison), and another player (SF/PF) on sweet 1-and-1 contracts.

    149. We have our dream come true at KB. They’re finally acknowledging that there are no shortcuts. Third year in a row with a lottery pick. We’re getting NBA players in the second round and as UDFA’s. We have no albatross contracts at present. Have we gotten the best value from our picks? Well, Mitch looks promising, RJ does as well. If those two fulfill all star potential we have a bunch of money to fill out the roster should other prospects crash and burn.

    150. Continued from 159

      From what I’ve read, I’m nervous about Durant and might be just as happy keeping our cap. If one or both of Kawhi and Kyrie wanna come, great, we’re back, otherwise slow rebuild.

      So in this case we either sign one year deals or, better still, take on other team’s one year deals for more draft assets. TBH, I’m not down with two years of money in this type of deal. Also, wouldn’t it be wise, perhaps, to have salary available for a deadline deal?

    151. For all of RJ Barrett’s flaws, he does come with two secondary skills: he’s a great rebounder for a wing, and he’s a very good playmaker for a wing who racks up assists.

      Lots of young guys have the “if he learns to shoot he’ll be good” tag attached to them and RJ is no exception, but in his case it’s true: if he does improve the 3-point shooting, he could be a really nice wing. There’s a plausible path to RJ developing into an All-Star.

    152. I’m totally serious when I say that I envision a 20-5-5 season on 53 TS% for RJ. That’s not a good or bad thing, but his numbers will turn a lot of heads.

    153. Yeah, there’s plenty of reasons to be optimistic about Barrett, which is much more than we had when they picked Knox, so it’s not bad. It’s disheartening that they haven’t made any other good moves, but it’s not like the draft was a total disaster.

    154. @162

      If he reaches that level it would be amazing. Rookie guards tend to suck badly, if he maintains a 53 ts% while producing rebounds and assists, it’s a great sign that he is a potential star.

    155. I’m totally serious when I say that I envision a 20-5-5 season on 53 TS% for RJ. That’s not a good or bad thing, but his numbers will turn a lot of heads.

      booked on the under, specifically the 20 and 53TS coexisting

    156. I see a left-handed early career Tyreke Evans in RJ. Those numbers are achievable, I guess.

    157. If Barrett scores 20 PPG on .530 TS% as a 19-year-old rookie, I will piss my pants with joy. I will soak them through.

    158. I think Farfa meant he’d reach that line at or around his peak, not as a rookie. I mean, that would be a Luka-lite rookie season.

    159. RJ is such a great kid that I feel bad for him that he ended up in the Dolan cesspool.
      Everyone will love him until he escapes when he’s a FA. He legitimately gives a shit and works his ass off and is all about basketball.

    160. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      I’ll actually start considering the idea that Phil was just a figurehead while here, and Mills really made all the calls.

      Mills was the GM. He had to have some power over personnel decisions. For example, it has since become pubic that it was Mills that gave Lee his contract. So who knows how many of the other deals and picks were Phil’s and how many were Mills.

      KP, Dotson, and Frank were almost guaranteed to be Gaines/Phil. I read everything Gains says. I know what he likes. They fit his profile. Willy was reported as scouted by Mills, but they were probably all on board with bringing in KP’s friend because Gaines scouted him also. I would guess that Kornet is also Gaines, but I’m less sure on that one.

      It would not shock me if Gaines got the boot later because he was the one that pushed hard for Frank (who then disappointed. Mills wanted Dennis Smith Jr and they all supposedly considered Mitchell. Based on commentary Gaines has made since I think he wanted someone other than Knox, but was on board with Trier and Robinson. He likes those two and still likes Frank and Dotson.

      As far as I am concerned Mills was plotting to take over from Phil from the start.

    161. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them! says:

      Let me take a guess about their plan “c”.

      I think they’d be willing to rent cap space for 1 year if it came with a pick because they’d get the cap space right back next year and could continue the current rebuild plan. So for example, if the Clippers were desperate enough to move Gallo by adding a sweetener, they’d probably be open to that (not that Clippers would have to, but you get what I mean).

      However, they would NOT be willing to tie up cap space for 2-3 years for a better pick because it would delay aspects of the rebuild by 2-3 years. They don’t want to rebuild via draft alone. They want to use a combination of draft picks, trades and free agency to move it along quicker.

      So that means if they can’t get a legitimate max player, most likely they are going to try to give out 1 and 2 year contracts to young players with some hope of lasting long term, but also giving them the ability to roll over the cap space quickly to next year to try for a max player next year instead.

      That puts guys like Vonleh, Hezonja, and God forbid Mudiay back in the mix for short term deals. It also might mean players like Julius Randle are live.

    162. Lol Phil Jackson leaks literally anything if he thinks it makes him look 1% less dumb. If he had anything but final say over basketball decisions (and all the contemporaneous reporting indicated he very much had that), we would’ve found out 10 minutes after he was fired.

      But I know, Phil, like Frank, has never actually failed at anything. He has however been failed by Steve Mills, Carmelo Anthony, Joakim Noah, Courtney Lee, Derrick Rose, Frank Ntilikina, Arron Afflalo, Derrick Williams, Kevin Seraphin, Lamar Odom, and of course as has become freshly relevant, Travis Wear.

    163. A guy like Randle is going to want, and should be able to get, more than a 1 or 2 year deal.

      Doing the Plan C and just giving out pointless marginal win-earning deals to the Arron Afflalos of the world is basically just punting and saying “well, we couldn’t figure out anything smart so we did this instead.” It would be a major opportunity cost fail.

      It would say to me that these guys don’t really operate like a modern NBA front office.

    164. I forgot about Knick Legend Jason Smith, who also betrayed the Zen Master by not living up to his unlimited potential with us.

    165. My friend loves Michigan and watched every game. He knows basketball. He says Iggy can score at all 3 levels but that’s about all he brings to the table. He’s a minus defender. I asked for a comp. He said poor man’s T.J. Warren. Meh.

    166. RJ Barrett and Luka Doncic are closer than you think in similarity. They’re both big playmaking guards who were supremely decorated and successful players before they got to the NBA. We all know the Luka Doncic story, but RJ Barrett was a Consensus All American and got voted the best shooting guard in the NCAA last year (he won the Jerry West Award). He also went undefeated as a senior in high school and dominated the all star circuit that spring. Doncic also has the same weaknesses RJ has (3 point shooting, defense, and free throw shooting), and he had them in Europe if you go back and look at the numbers. Barrett and Doncic are both strong rebounding and passing wings. Barrett’s a better athlete/rebounder and Doncic is a better passer/playmaker. I would not be surprised to see Barrett put up big numbers as a rookie, and he’ll likely be lauded a superstar in the making by December the same way Porzingis was. Barrett doesn’t come with the same injury concerns as Porzingis, and I’m irrationally confident that his free throw shooting and 3 point shooting will be respectable by year 2.

      In short, I believe RJ Barrett is a lot more special than he’s given credit for around here. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong, and I cannot wait to see what he does in a Knicks jersey.

    167. i think folks underestimate how big of a deal having a SF that can pass and distribute like rj can is…. that is a pretty rare thing and opens things up for the lineup….

    168. If Barrett scores 20 PPG on .530 TS% as a 19-year-old rookie, I will piss my pants with joy. I will soak them through.

      I’d need a whole new wardrobe and new furniture to match. I think my sofa might be safe tho.

    169. A TJ Warren type of player doesn’t sound so bad to me. The Pacers just traded for him and they are a well run franchise. Given where he was picked, Iggy would be fine if he reached that level. Of course, its still clear we arent acquiring defense.

    170. I really like the early career Tyreke Evan’s comp. The difference is that Evan’s is an asshole who didnt give a shit. So if we start from that baseline I believe RJ can grow into a Paul George type of offensive player minus the crazy good 3 pt shooting of george.

    171. The thing with Barrett is that while he’s a good passer, no questions asked, his handle scares me a bit. Doncic is able to do what he does because he’s an incredibly talented dribbler, he’s able to navigate close spaces and create plays through that. I’m sure Barrett can make good passes in transition and find open guys or throw lobs, but unless his handle is up to par, it will be hard for him to be an actual playmaker if he can’t make accurate passes off the dribble or with his right hand.

      He’s crafty and seems to understand the game well, so I won’t put it past him to improve on that, but Doncic clearly arrived at the league at a superior level in this aspect of the game.

    172. I agree with you Bruno, but the difference is that I think RJ will be a secondary handler unlike Luka who is the primary. I think that will allow him to grow into a primary handler

    173. I like the NYKs’ draft. I would have been very excited had they bought an early 2nd or traded up to get Bol. Worth that slot to take a flier on Bol. But of course, somehow Denver lands him. If Bol is healthy, he is the perfect complement to Joker and would be my pick in the West.

    174. I have been pondering that plan C. It’s doable. Instead of 2 players at $70M the Knicks should look for 3 players at about $60M. They need a couple of bigs and a reliable veteran point guard. They also need at least one all-star caliber player. If they max out 1 player and then split the next max slot, that would mean a lot at this point. They could fill the bench with solid backups too.

    175. RJ Barrett and Luka Doncic are closer than you think in similarity. They’re both big playmaking guards who were supremely decorated and successful players before they got to the NBA.

      There’s a huge difference between being the best player in the 2nd best league in the world–Luka–and being kind of underwhelming in the NCAA–RJ. To put it another way RJ would not have seen more than 10 min a game on Real Madrid if he got any playing time at all. The Euroleague is notorious for not playing young guys, ask Brandon Jennings.

    176. I have been pondering that plan C. It’s doable. Instead of 2 players at $70M the Knicks should look for 3 players at about $60M. They need a couple of bigs and a reliable veteran point guard. They also need at least one all-star caliber player. If they max out 1 player and then split the next max slot, that would mean a lot at this point. They could fill the bench with solid backups too.

      Great, so that team should win about 32 games, and then pick 10th in the 2020 draft. Sounds like a solid plan.

      I have a better idea: don’t do that.

    177. The problem with splitting $60 million three ways is that anyone worth paying $20 million will be getting $30 million offers and anyone under $20 million that you get to come here by offering them $20 million aren’t worth $20 million. There are some guys who aren’t bad if you’re plugging them into good teams, but as the centerpieces of the team? They don’t exist.

    178. @182

      I think it will be his best role eventually, I was more focused on the comparison between him and Doncic, in that Doncic is a better primary ball handler and playmaker because his handle is so much more advanced.

      I don’t think anyone should be compared to Doncic, by the way, simply because of how unique of a player he is and how precocious his skill set is. Very few players, if any, come to the NBA so young and with a skill set so far developed as he did playing as a pro in Spain for years as a teenager. We shouldn’t expect Barrett to be on his level because it’s not really realistic anyway.

      What I expect from RJ is mostly that he will be a very good transition player right away, and that he will struggle in half court sets because of his poor shooting and handle. Like I said before, it’s a pick I’m excited for because there are plenty of probable scenarios in which he becomes a good player (if he improves his shooting, or the playmaking or his defense, or any combination of those). Obviously I’d rather have a guy like Zion or Doncic himself who don’t have so much to improve to be good players, but it’s good enough for the position we were in.

    179. Funny how people here rave about one-way players like Doncic and Jokic, but rag on the Knicks targeting one-way players.

    180. Is Jokic a one way player though? The eye test used to say so but the latest metrics complicate that picture. DRPM has him 17th among NBA centers. That’s pretty good. He also had a 4.3 DWS last season, the best of his career.

    181. Also, Jokic is an elite offensive player. Our problem is that we acquire guys who are decent to good offensive players who are also questionable defenders.

    182. DRPM is a noisy stat. Eye test is probably more reliable for d. If you think Jokic is even an average defensive 5, may the force be with you. I think he is in the Kanter/Vucevic/KAT class at best.

    183. Well, when you draft these guys you hope they will become elite (Knox, Trier, RJ, Iggy) just like you hope Mitch will become elite on D.

    184. Speaking of Iggy, I just watched his highlight reel from Michigan. He really does have a great motor and some prolific offensive skills. I look forward to seeing him in summer league.

    185. Denver tweaked their defensive scheme, especially how they handled defending the pick and roll, and they were able to hide Jokic’s slow-footedness on defense a lot better this past season. He’s not a strong defender, but he’s not a complete liability anymore either.

    186. Great, so that team should win about 32 games, and then pick 10th in the 2020 draft. Sounds like a solid plan.

      I have a better idea: don’t do that.

      Actually, yes. But I think we can get over 500. We’re not going from last to first overnight. It ain’t happening. Doubling our win total is better than another 17 win season. You can’t buy a championship until you develop a core of good young, cheap, players. We have to hope RJ is a star and has the type of impact Doncic had last year. Add one max next to him and assume that Mitchell Robinson plays no better or worse than the second half of last season. Now you have something.

      And Brian, we have a lot of money. I should have done the math. Based on Tommy Beer’s article in Forbes, with a core of
      Mitchell Robinson, Kevin Knox, Dennis Smith Jr., Frank Ntilikina, Damyean Dotson, RJ Barrett, Joakim Noah’s $6.44 million cap hit, and the Knicks excercise Allonzo Trier’s option and, five minimum roster charges, the Knicks have apx. $70 million to spend.

      I’m thinking that we max out one (either $33M or $27M). We know the top names but there needs to be an all-star: Kyrie, Kemba, Kawhi, Butler are the top of that tier but there are others. Get one.

      Assuming we sign a 7-9 year max, the remaining $37 needs to be spread out to fill 3 major positional needs: starting power forward, veteran backup center and veteran point guard. We would need one of them that could shoot 3’s. None of them to suck defensively and a couple need to be thumpers. I would just try to find the best way to fill those holes with that money. The rest of the team is filler.

      Done right, with at least one of our younger players developing, we could even have a good team.

    187. You mean kinda like Portland schemed for Kanter? Or Houston schemes for Harden?

      Well, yes, actually. Defense is a team concept. If you can play successfully as a member of a solid defensive team, that kinda means by nature you’re not a terrible, team-killing defender. Jokic led Denver in minutes and they were the #10 defense in the league, despite the fact that they didn’t have a shotblocking “caddy” to play next to him.

      He’s not gonna be on any all-defensive teams, but he’s not completely blowing up their defense either.

    188. DRPM is a noisy stat.

      I thought it was an improvement as far as defensive metrics go. Believe it or not, Jokic has been very consistent as far as this stat goes. It has ranked him as the 17th best defensive center in the league the past three straight NBA seasons.

      2016-17

      2017-18

      2018-19

    189. Well yeah, if we were drafting elite offensive talent I’d be fine with it. We’re not though. We do hope Knox will eventually become an elite offensive talent but there was nothing in his college game that suggested that progression at all, unlike guys like Doncic, Trae Young or DeAndre Ayton.

      If RJ or Knox end up contributing on offense at the level Jokic does, I couldn’t care less if they don’t play defense, as I agree with JK47 that Denver has shown you can compete and win a lot of games with other guys carrying the brunt of the defense. Portland also faced a similar situation as Lillard is not a good defender at all.

      Obviously I’d rather have Giannis or Kawhi or prime Lebron, dominant two way players, but those are so damn rare, there’s like only Zion in the last 3 or so drafts that might even project to be at that level eventually, maybe Ben Simmons?

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