Knicks Morning News (2017.04.06)

  • [NYPost] Rose-Jennings non-reunion harsh reminder of what went wrong
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 6:12:55 PM)

    Remember that Knicks point-guard duo of Derrick Rose and Brandon Jennings everyone was so excited about? Thursday will be a harsh reminder of the pair’s epic fail as the playoff-bound Wizards visit the Garden. Rose will be in Chicago after undergoing “uncomplicated’’ arthroscopic surgery on his left knee there to repair what the Knicks term…

  • [NYPost] James Dolan flips out on taunting Knicks fan: You’re an ‘a–hole’
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 2:42:37 PM)

    Knicks owner James Dolan has turned his rage from Charles Oakley to a Knicks season-ticket holder from Astoria, Queens, engaging in a profane shouting match with him before Tuesday’s victory over the Bulls. Deadspin reported the eccentric owner owned up to cursing out a fan after he got heckled. Dolan told the website: “I did…

  • [NYPost] Knicks tanking gets tricky when the scrubs outplay the stars
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 1:18:42 PM)

    This is what tanking sounds and looks like. At Tuesday’s morning shootaround, Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek informed Maurice Ndour he would start at power forward that night against the Bulls in place of Kristaps Porzingis. Ndour thought he was joking. “I was like, ‘Me? You’re sure? Me? I’m starting?’” Ndour said. “That was my first reaction, and…

  • [NYPost] Patrick Ewing’s Georgetown plan: Hoya Paranoia meets NBA style
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 8:57:10 AM)

    Saying it’s “something I needed to do’’ and “I’m a great salesman,’’ Patrick Ewing embarked on a new career, aiming to restore Georgetown’s “Hoya Paranoia’’ image of the 1980s fostered by former coach John Thompson. With Thompson sitting in the back at Ewing’s formal press conference Wednesday in Washington, the Knicks great donned a gray…

  • [NY Newsday] Patrick Ewing had to wait far too long to be a head coach
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 7:15:00 PM)

    Why did it take 15 years for this to happen?

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Maurice Ndour shines as starter in front of his mother
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 3:14:50 PM)

    Maurice Ndour was wearing a bright green Senegal shirt and bright smile as he talked about his special day that started with a very unexpected announcement at Tuesday’s shootaround.

  • [NYTimes] Dolan Acknowledges Confronting Knicks Fan Outside the Garden
    (Thursday, April 06, 2017 3:25:51 AM)

    James L. Dolan told Deadspin that he confronted the fan on Tuesday night after the fan shouted at him to sell the Knicks.

  • [NYTimes] New York City to Pay N.B.A.’s Thabo Sefolosha $4 Million to End False-Arrest Suit
    (Thursday, April 06, 2017 12:36:05 AM)

    Mr. Sefolosha, of the Atlanta Hawks, agreed to settle his federal lawsuit against five police officers he said had used excessive force against him outside a Manhattan nightclub in April 2015.

  • [NYTimes] On Pro Basketball: In Boston, Cavaliers Make a Point: They’re Still the Cavaliers
    (Thursday, April 06, 2017 7:55:40 AM)

    A 114-91 victory over the Celtics showed that Cleveland remains fearsome, after many ups and downs this season.

  • [NYTimes] Sports Briefing: Cavaliers Rout Celtics to Retake First in East
    (Thursday, April 06, 2017 4:18:34 AM)

    LeBron James’s 36 points helped Cleveland win on the road, 114-91, and take a one-game lead over Boston with four games to play.

  • [SNY Knicks] GEICO SportsNite: Ewing introduced as Georgetown’s head coach
    (Thursday, April 06, 2017 12:38:22 AM)

    Patrick Ewing was introduced as the new head coach for the Georgetown men’s basketball.

  • [SNY Knicks] Owner James Dolan cursed at season ticket holder outside MSG
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 6:13:31 PM)

    Knicks owner James Dolan yelled and cursed at a season ticket holder Tuesday night outside Madison Square Garden, Dolan confirmed to Deadspin.

  • [SNY Knicks] Derrick Rose underwent successful knee surgery
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 2:10:19 PM)

    Derrick Rose underwent “uncomplicated” surgery for the torn meniscus in his left knee on Wednesday, the team announced.

  • [SNY Knicks] Lance Thomas was held back by injuries again this season
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 11:59:28 AM)

    Lance Thomas, who is dealing with a sore right hip, will likely not play in another game this season as the Knicks continue their march to the offseason.

  • [NYDN] Ewing has work cut out to bring glory days back to Georgetown
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 9:42:07 PM)

    The biggest man on campus held a Georgetown pennant over his head on Wednesday and smiled for the cameras.

  • [NYDN] James Dolan admits he called Knicks fan an a-hole outside MSG
    (Wednesday, April 05, 2017 9:39:37 PM)

    Dolan doesn’t just berate former Knicks stars.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    79 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2017.04.06)”

    1. Anyone else wonder if it wasn’t jon abbey who got into the verbal altercation with Dolan?

    2. Re: Holiday – perhaps “no-brainer” was a little strong, but I would not be sad at all if we ended up giving him MLE (8.4MM/year) type money. Ideally not for 4 years.

      Re: his averageness as a 3/D wing.

      Hard to know what to make of the DBPM stat that someone quoted in the last thread, especially since the actual creator of BPM wrote this:

      Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don’t hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

      FWIW, by DRPM (which is admittedly an opaque stat), he is basically the #16 shooting guard if you discount dudes that have barely played (Sasha! and something called Jarell Eddie).

      3-D guys don’t just fall out of the sky, and I think dudes that are actually acceptable on both ends are more rare than people think, and certainly cost more than people think. For every Norman Powell that gets found in the 2nd round, there are ton of guys who never make it. So there is some benefit to paying a guy a reasonable salary and knowing what you’re going to get for those $. Yes, he may never grossly outperform that salary, but he’s also pretty unlikely to underperform it.

      Just as a quick and admittedly very unscientific comparison, here is Justin Holiday vs. the first 5 guys that sort of came to my head as classic 3/D guys in the same sort of player role as Holiday – Courtney Lee, Shumpert, Danny Green, Wesley Matthews, and Kent Bazemore. And again FWIW, only Danny Green and Matthews have a better DRPM than Holiday.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/Yp1ra

      They are all basically very similar, and Holiday will probably get paid a LOT less than any of them.

      It definitely makes me agree with whoever said it that we could/should sign Holiday and send Lee somewhere else.

    3. It definitely makes me agree with whoever said it that we could/should sign Holiday and send Lee somewhere else.

      You had me at “send Lee somewhere else.” :)

    4. They are all basically very similar, and Holiday will probably get paid a LOT less than any of them.

      But look at those names I had last thread, Frank…

      30-year-old Mirza Teletovic got $10 million per over four years
      26-year-old E’Twaun Moore got $8.5 million per over four years
      29-year-old Garrett Temple got $8 million per over three years
      30-year-old Courtney Lee got $12 million per over four years
      30-year-old Arron Afflalo got $12.5 million per over two years
      27-year-old Lance Thomas got the MLE over four years

      None of those dudes were hot players (except maaaaaaaaaaaybe Lee), and they all got paid. Why would Holiday not get paid? Did Garrett freakin’ Temple seriously have some buzz about him that I missed, or do teams just pay out $8 million plus to every available 3 and D guys, even the mediocre ones?

    5. None of those dudes were hot players (except maaaaaaaaaaaybe Lee), and they all got paid. Why would Holiday not get paid? Did Garrett Temple seriously have some buzz about him that I missed, or do teams just pay out $8 million plus to every available 3 and D guys, even the mediocre ones?

      Last summer feels like somewhat of an outlier in looking at contracts. Literally every single team in the league had serious cap space to play with because of the insane single season jump and that money burned a hole in everybody’s pocket leading to dumb decisions all around the league, even from some smarter teams like Portland giving Turner 4/72m and Memphis handing Parsons a 4/94m max after some secret 2nd knee surgery.

      This summer there’s less free cap per team and I don’t expect there to be as much money being thrown around. There’s a chance Holiday gets paid similarly to those guys, but I think he ends up getting something similar to Lance, which is somewhere between the average player salary and the MLE.

    6. Re: Holiday – I didn’t mean he’d make like $4MM or something – I expect him to get $8MM starting value. When I say he makes a lot less than those other guys, Danny Green took what was known to be a discount at the time, and will be making $10MM/year the next 2 seasons. Lee is getting $12+/year, Matthews was a max contract at the time, and Bazemore is stealing $17MM+ per year. By that standard, $8MM is a bargain. So we are actually agreeing.

      If he is getting offered $10+MM/year, I’d say we should probably pass. But I’m hoping he’s sort of under the radar given he’s playing limited minutes on a dumpster fire of a team.

      And yes, I do think last year was an outlier – I would hope/expect that some of those #s come down from the crazy AAV given out last summer.

    7. And meanwhile, the Lakers are just hilarious. And not for lack of trying by Walton either.

    8. The Knicks should pay Holiday whatever Jim Dolan feels like paying him. If you disagree, you’re probably an alcoholic.

    9. Why do some on here continually trash James Dolan and then try to tell him how to spend his money?

    10. Why do some on here continually trash James Dolan and then try to tell him how to spend his money?

      You do ask the good questions….

      Mr. Hamersky, if you happen to be a Knickerblogger, let me buy you a beer sometime.

    11. It’s becoming more likely that Orlando might select a hybrid forward with their draft pick after seeing their “big board” tweeted out to the world. Tatum please?

    12. Reub, are you James Dolan? I want you to be honest with us for once.

    13. Just as a quick and admittedly very unscientific comparison, here is Justin Holiday vs. the first 5 guys that sort of came to my head as classic 3/D guys in the same sort of player role as Holiday – Courtney Lee, Shumpert, Danny Green, Wesley Matthews, and Kent Bazemore. And again FWIW, only Danny Green and Matthews have a better DRPM than Holiday.

      http://bkref.com/tiny/Yp1ra

      The Spurs and Cavs were just doing what it took to keep a legitimate contender together. That’s the way the win curve works. Paying market value for average-to-mediocre players is fine in that case (I think Green is better than that but it doesn’t really matter). As for Bazemore and Matthews…wouldn’t you agree that those are objectively bad contracts? Also you only compared every player’s 2016-2017 season, even though all four of the non-Holiday guys were signed based on prior seasons in which they were significantly better.

      There is simply no way Holiday would represent good value at $6-$8m. We are in no position to try and sign guys to market value contracts. We desperately need surplus value.

    14. Also, I’d love to see the Lakers screw up their tank. But not at the expense of the 76ers picking up two additional high draft picks. Stay strong, Lakers!

    15. Holiday is probably an averagish player. He’s definitely good enough to give you minutes without fucking things up, which is valuable. You can do a lot for a team by just not giving minutes to really bad players. So if you take his 1500 minutes and give them to a crappy wing, the Knicks are going to be a game or two worse. Is that worth tying up 24 million over 3 years? Given where we are as a team, I don’t think so.

    16. Holiday is probably an averagish player. He’s definitely good enough to give you minutes without fucking things up, which is valuable. You can do a lot for a team by just not giving minutes to really bad players. So if you take his 1500 minutes and give them to a crappy wing, the Knicks are going to be a game or two worse. Is that worth tying up 24 million over 3 years? Given where we are as a team, I don’t think so.

      My guess is that Phil will continue a win-now mentality with the understanding KP, the 2017 pick, and even Willy-Billy will be the nucleus in the no-so-distant future. I think nearly everyone here agrees with you that $24 million over three years would be better spent on young players to compliment that nucleus.

    17. why are we so down on Courtney Lee? I think he’s been at or slightly better than we could have expected, and he’s not a bad value at $12M. I’d rather have him for $12M than Holliday for $8M. I could see if we move him for an asset, but I don’t get just dumping him.

    18. There’s gotta be a recording somewhere of James Dolan making racist or some other offensive comments. Then the league can go all Donald Sterling on him.

    19. it’s funny Luke Walton’s previous comments on tanking, meanwhile his 2half rotations last night were so blatant.

      He played Tyler Ennis, David Nwaba, Thomas Robinson, Tarik Black the entire 4th quarter. And sprinkled in some Corey Brew and MEtta World.

    20. Dolan seems to not understand that ticketholders are paying a fee to get in. He makes it sound as if they are invited by him as if it is a private party or that they are children being allowed onto his lawn to retrieve a stray dog or a ball.

    21. why are we so down on Courtney Lee? I think he’s been at or slightly better than we could have expected, and he’s not a bad value at $12M. I’d rather have him for $12M than Holliday for $8M. I could see if we move him for an asset, but I don’t get just dumping him.

      It’s a win curve issue. Courtney Lee at $12m is probably at least close to fair value in a vacuum, but for a team like the Knicks who are bad with or without him, all he really does is take up cap space that could be used to accumulate assets. If he was 26 or so that might be different because he could conceivably be a productive player on the next good Knicks team (if it ever actually comes). The problem is he’ll be 32 next season, in which we’ll still be bad. The first chance he’ll have to be a productive player on a good team for us is in 2018-2019, in which he’ll be 33…and we’ll still probably suck.

    22. The league isn’t going to force Dolan out- he’s more late-in-life Al Davis than Donald Sterling. Plus, the Sterling situation was a perfect storm in that it was 1) a lifetime “achievement” award for a guy who was a parasite on the league for 30 years, and 2) Silver was a new commish who needed to spill some blood. The league also seemed to have Ballmer lined up as a guy willing to plunk down $2 billion. There aren’t a ton of people like that out there.

    23. accumulate assets – you mean 21 year olds who have “upside” but then in half a season or a season when they don’t improve fast enough we ship them out for other 21 year olds with “upside.”

      Build a team with good players on good contracts. Hey, trade Lee if we get a first round pick back. I get it. But I see this over and over again where people on here think any player who is over 25 who is making more than rookie scale should be shipped bc we aren’t a good team. But how do you become a good team with a roster full of unproven upside guys who are 21?

      We have 3 draft picks coming this year. A potentially top 7 pick and 2 second rounders. We got another first rounder next year (and our second). The assets, if phil doesn’t trade them, will start stacking up. We just have to be patient. In the meantime having dudes like Lee, Holiday, KQ…vets who play well and are worth their contracts…that doesn’t hurt our future at all. Its trading picks, which phil hasn’t done or signing overpaid veterans (which he has done some) is what kills us. Melo making 25 million and playing no defense kills us. Rose not playing defense and getting paid 21 million kills us.

      I can just see it now. We sign a good free agent this year with our cap space who is 28 and everyone will freak out about how we could use that money to accumulate assets. You can only accumulate so many. There are 15 roster spots. This isn’t baseball.

    24. The way the payroll of this team is structured, we’re really locked into mediocrity for quite some time. We already have a quartet of players giving us AT BEST market value on their contracts– Noah, Melo, Lee and Thomas. Much more likely is that we’re getting negative value on those four contracts. Add in Holiday at $8M per for 3 years, and that’s a really large amount of cap space tied up in guys who are break even or worse players. You would need the low-salary young guys to play like superstars to get you to 45+ wins with that much salary tied up in mediocre players. And so far the young players we have look pretty good, but they are FAR from playing like superstars.

      Giving Justin Holiday $8M per year would be yet another “win now” move for a team that stinks and is far away from being any good. So of course Phil will do it.

    25. In the big scheme of things we’re going to be mediocre and this is going to be a slow and painful “rebuild” that may or may not work out (and probably won’t, since we’re half-assing it). So whatever, sign Justin Holiday. Go nuts. Doesn’t really make much difference. There is no savior coming to save the day who understands proper roster construction, so go ahead and sign the guy who helps you win 35 games instead of 33. Maybe one of these years the ping pong ball thing works out and we get Markelle Fultz or DeAndre Ayton.

    26. It does not make sense to pay Holiday $8M. It does make sense to pay him $4-5M. 3 years, $15M would be fine.

    27. Holiday will get $8 mil per annum. As your honorary James Dolan foil you heard it here first.

    28. accumulate assets – you mean 21 year olds who have “upside” but then in half a season or a season when they don’t improve fast enough we ship them out for other 21 year olds with “upside.”

      What are you talking about? Here are the kind of moves I was referring to:

      http://www.derekbodner.com/2015/07/02/sixers-acquire-nik-stauskas-1st-round-pick-from-kings/
      http://www.nba.com/lakers/news/140713jeremylin/
      http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11194467/jarrett-jack-cleveland-cavaliers-headed-brooklyn-nets-boston-celtics-part-trade
      http://www.nba.com/jazz/news/jazz-acquires-biedrins-jefferson-rush-and-five-future-draft-picks-three-team-trade

      Those are just a few instances off the top of my head in which teams took advantage of other teams’ desire to free up cap space and got assets (mostly first round picks) out of it. Do you really think signing the Courtney Lees and Justin Holidays of the world is a better use of cap space than moves like these? Especially when we’re a shitty team regardless?

    29. When we add our anklebreaker we won’t be shitty next year.

    30. Let me try to phrase it in a way that might change some minds.

      If we sign Justin Holiday for $6m-$8m a year, we’ll have $18m-$20m tied up in the SG spot while getting average-to-mediocre production from that spot. Does that sound like a good idea for a team that is nowhere near contention?

    31. Phil Jackson is never going to do the “rent out cap space to acquire assets” maneuver. He’s just not that shrewd or forward-thinking. He’s only capable of making very vanilla moves. He’s here for two more offseasons, and you can expect him to spend whatever cap space he has available to make the team as good as he can in the short run, with mediocre results. That’s just how he rolls.

      He has two more years here, which very likely means two more teams that win 30-35 games, followed by two more picks in the 6-10 range.

    32. @ 35 – They aren’t necessarily better moves but those ones you mentioned aren’t necessarily better either. Assets (young players with upside) have to actually, you know, fulfill their upside. Otherwise you’ve just wasted time developing a player who doesn’t turn into anything. Shumpert comes to mind.

      A bird in the hand is sometimes worth two in the bush. I’m not against accumulating picks or young players. In fact I think we should do more of it although I think people on this blog conveniently ignore the assets accumulation phil has done (KP, Willie H, all our first round picks and multiple second rounders going forward plus maybe some potential hidden talent in Baker, NDour, etc).

      All I’m saying is that there needs to be actual real team building too and sometimes the way to do that is to have some guys like Lee, Holiday and KQ on the roster especially if they aren’t being vastly overpaid and are good players living up to their contracts.

      There’s this wet dream fantasy of stacking the team with 20 year olds on rookie contracts who all peak at the same time and give us this magical 10 year window where we compete every year. But its a fantasy that in reality does not exist. Every good team has a mix of young players with upside, middle career vets and older vets. Every roster has dudes that outperform their contracts and dudes that are overpaid.

    33. Its also silly to argue about Justin Holiday in a vacuum. We have no idea what is happening this summer. If Melo stays and we sign Holiday for 4 years at 10 million then yeah its a bad move. If Melo is shipped out, it might be good to keep Holiday at 5 to 7 million for a few years.

    34. There’s this wet dream fantasy of stacking the team with 20 year olds on rookie contracts who all peak at the same time and give us this magical 10 year window where we compete every year. But its a fantasy that in reality does not exist. Every good team has a mix of young players with upside, middle career vets and older vets. Every roster has dudes that outperform their contracts and dudes that are overpaid.

      What was the value of winning 32 games this season instead of winning 31 games?

    35. They aren’t necessarily better moves but those ones you mentioned aren’t necessarily better either. Assets (young players with upside) have to actually, you know, fulfill their upside. Otherwise you’ve just wasted time developing a player who doesn’t turn into anything. Shumpert comes to mind.

      Sure. Draft picks may very well not pan out, and they might be worse players than Lee/Holiday. My question to you is if that happens, how are we any worse off than we would be if we had used that space on Lee/Holiday instead? We’d have won maybe 5 more games, maximum, while paying a lot more for it. The only “downside” is we’re out a few unremarkable, expensive players.

      In fact I think we should do more of it although I think people on this blog conveniently ignore the assets accumulation phil has done (KP, Willie H, all our first round picks and multiple second rounders going forward plus maybe some potential hidden talent in Baker, NDour, etc).

      Phil did a great job in picking Hernangomez, no argument there. Wouldn’t it be nice if we had more chances to make those kinds of moves instead of tying up $20m in mediocre, aging shooting guards? Also Baker and NDour have been pretty much replacement level or worse. I see no reason to credit Phil for “finding” them until that changes.

      Phil Jackson is never going to do the “rent out cap space to acquire assets” maneuver. He’s just not that shrewd or forward-thinking. He’s only capable of making very vanilla moves. He’s here for two more offseasons, and you can expect him to spend whatever cap space he has available to make the team as good as he can in the short run, with mediocre results. That’s just how he rolls.

      This is almost definitely the case. I guess I’m just arguing against that approach with no actual hope.

    36. Assets (young players with upside) have to actually, you know, fulfill their upside. Otherwise you’ve just wasted time developing a player who doesn’t turn into anything. Shumpert comes to mind.

      The fact that many young players DON’T pan out seems like a pretty good argument for the fact that you need a lot of young players. Some of them are gonna bust, that is true. If you only have a small handful of these players, you really need to be near a 100% success rate or you’re kind of screwed. The Knicks are a perennial losing team, they had a few years of fringe relevance back in the early 2010’s and other than that they’ve been getting their asses kicked for a decade and a half. And they’ll probably continue to suck because nobody in charge of decision making ever has the balls to do a true rebuild that is focused on asset collection. It’s always the same half-assed attempt to put a “win now” team on the floor with the same shitty results. It’s like we REALLY need that kinda okayish backup 2-guard. Can’t use that space to do something creative and try to acquire a draft pick.

      We might have used the Derrick Williams/Arron Afflalo cap space to acquire an asset or two. We might have used the Derrick Rose trade as a means to collect an asset or two. We didn’t. What we got instead was one shitty year of Derrick Williams, Arron Afflalo and Derrick Rose. What exactly did that accomplish? We sucked anyway.

    37. Lol Phil didn’t find Baker. Baker is a scrub

      and we should have been had Ndour but he got cut 1 or 2 years ago for sasha?

    38. Essentially we are expecting any franchise changing players to come in via free agency, because Knicks. So the growth will come from the draft. In that case why are we so concerned with how much cap space we have or don’t have tied up? As a general proposition I understand it but here I don’t quite see the application. The next big expense will presumably/hopefully be when KP and Willy are off their rookie contracts and have turned out to be the frontcourt cornerstones we hoped they would be. Having a solid pro like Lee around is not a bad thing. Holiday is not so offensive though I see where the argument against him is going in that we already have Lance and Lee and do not need to corner the market on low ceiling wingmen/Fs.

    39. There’s this wet dream fantasy of stacking the team with 20 year olds on rookie contracts who all peak at the same time and give us this magical 10 year window where we compete every year.

      No. The dream is to stack the team with 20-year-olds on team-friendly deals and cut the ones who don’t pan out. Consider this gem from Frank in 2012:

      http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-monday-sep-10-2012/#comment-403679

      How is this a good system again? GMs are fired for making one or two bad high lottery picks.

      I’ve said it 100 times and I’ll say it again – just because a system can predict one or two Ty Lawsons doesn’t mean that it should be forgiven for predicting greatness for Nick Fazekas, Ahmad Nivins, Lester Hudson, Brian Zoubek, Hassan Whiteside, etc. Like Bill Clinton just said, even a broken clock is right 2x/day.

      If you sign Ty Lawson, Fazekas, Nivins, Hudson, Zoubek and Whiteside (lol) to minimum deals — let’s say 2 years guaranteed with team options in years 3 and 4 — and two of them become above-average players, like Lawson (who was good before booze caught up with him) and Whiteside (who is a nasty, max-worthy player)? Not to mention that Fazekas would have easily been a solid bench player in the NBA, given his utter dominance in foreign leagues?

      That’s six players who were rated highly via simplistic pre-draft statistics and two of them became excellent players. That is an incredible hit rate. No one expects Kuz and Hernangomez to both blossom into star players at the same time. The hope is that you beat the average GM and get surplus value out of, say, half of your signees, and cut or trade the rest. That’s all.

    40. And yes, Baker is a scrub. But Hernangomez is not. Cut Baker, keep Willy. Baby steps.

    41. This Holliday debate is so pointless. We have 3 picks in the upcoming draft I would rather that they see the playing time he’s guaranteed to get if we open the franchise wallet for him. I swear, Holliday is becoming the new Langston Galloway.

    42. Baker’s an SG. 28yo Holiday’s minutes should be going to 23yo Baker at the 2. And win now Phil’s not trading Lee for a pick. Phil shocked us last summer but prepare for this by Phil:

      (1) Our 2017 pick/Willy/Noah for Boogie (New Orleans desperate to rid themselves of Boogie)
      (2) Sign Hill or Teague for $25+m
      (3) Go over cap to sign Holiday for $6m
      (4) Use MLE or room exception on another player

      Core Win Now Roster: Teague/Hill, Lee, Melo, KP, Boogie, KOQ, Lance, Holiday, MLE

    43. I stole this off a post on another site, so I can’t swear it’s accurate, but it highlights how difficult it is to find good players:

      Of 70 top 10 picks in last 6 drafts, only 17% are at or above .100 on WS/48 (league average) so far in career.

    44. Okay. You convinced me. Why keep good players when you can gamble (and lose most of the time) instead?

    45. New Orleans is not desperate to unload Boogie LOL

      They are more desperate to unload their crap overrated coach who’s only given credit because he had steve nash and steph curry

    46. Baker’s a point guard in the triangle similar to Derek Fisher.

    47. Baker’s definitely improved over the course of the year in his ball handling and decision making within the offense and I’m hopeful this extended trial run for him at point is to put him in a position where he must improve his handle before moving him back to more of a combo guard role.

      He’s also one of the few guys that understands how to play team defense and is any type of physical in trying to contain penetration at the point of attack. He rebounds well for a guard and actually gets in the passing lanes, 2 skills I think that speak well about his defensive capability.

      He definitely needs to improve his finishing at the rim and in hitting from beyond the arc, but I’d hold onto him into next year and see if he can get better at those 2 things. He’s 21/71 from 3 so far. If he hit 5 more he’d be a 36.6% shooter. I don’t think the sample is large enough at this point to determine he’s an irredeemable mess offensively. Maybe he’ll never get better, but I think he’s the type of player we should be keeping and trying to develop.

    48. Also he’s going to cost us what? He’s an RFA this year and I’m fairly certain no team is going to tie up their cap space to get into a bidding war for Baker. Offer him another minimum for next year and a non-guaranteed or team option for a 2nd year and bring him back. Worst case he sucks and we cut him for barely any cost. If he does develop we get him for cheap over the next 2 years and have full Bird Rights on him.

    49. Yeah there’s no reason we should be cutting Baker. The guy makes $500K, 23y/o and takes up one roster spot. If he doesn’t improve at all by the end of next year, then you cut him and move on, but you definitely give him another year.

    50. Rumor is Josh Jackson could go #1 overall if a team with an established PG chooses first. Question: would you just rather pick Jackson than going for Ball/Fultz and trading away Bradley if you’re Ainge?

    51. If Ainge doesn’t want Fultz or Ball, just pick one of them and make a trade.

      I would guess that he can trade them for almost any player that he choose.

      Picking a top2 by need doesn’t seems like a smart strategy here.

    52. It depends entirely on your board. If you think Josh Jackson is the no.1 overall prospect, then you just pick him. If you think Fultz or Ball is the no.1 prospect you pick them. Bradley’s contract expires at the end of next season anyway, at which point he will be due for a big raise. He’s on a great deal right now, but becomes less valuable when you have to pay him what he’s actually worth. If you draft Fultz or Ball, you don’t have to trade Bradley. It also gives you the flexibility to just let him walk.

    53. Signing or not signing Holiday is not a big deal but putting average or better players around our developing youth is helpful even if we still have a bad record. We want the 3-5 young developing players in our rotation to be able to grow and develop without being held back by a bunch of d-league level players making mistakes. Around your young players you want solid veteran role players who will support them and not get in the way of their progress. Melo and Rose demand too much of the offense and play no defense so they are both not long term answers and they hurt our youths development, but veterans like Holiday, Lee and O’Quinn are exactly the type of players that you can insert in to a rotation around our youth without holding them back or getting in their way. And can have their minutes decreased to make room for a younger player without them throwing a fit.

      Of course if you can trade those role players for future assets of some value you do it but you don’t cut them so you can simply take flyers on d-league players, undrafted rookies and late 2nd round picks.

    54. Melo and Rose demand too much of the offense and play no defense so they are both not long term answers and they hurt our youths development, but veterans like Holiday, Lee and O’Quinn are exactly the type of players that you can insert in to a rotation around our youth without holding them back or getting in their way.

      I think there’s some confusion as to what kind of players we do and do not want to have. O’Quinn is great value on his contract and relatively young. I have no problem keeping him around if we plan on retaining him long-term (if we don’t then we should trade him). Lee and Holiday (at $6-$8m a year) are less productive, more expensive, and older than O’Quinn.

      Putting together a good NBA team basically comes down to stuffing as much production under the cap as possible. O’Quinn is a net positive in that regard. Lee and Holiday are, at best, neutral. Neutral value doesn’t help a bad team like the Knicks get closer to contention, and in many cases it actually gets them further from contention.

    55. We are so far from contention that maximizing value under the cap doesn’t matter all that much right now. Our only goal should be to develop our young talent and start building a system and positive culture. We are not looking to sign a bunch of players so cap room is unimportant (even possibly harmful in the hands of Jackson) so with that in mind keeping around average rotation players with seemingly good attitudes like Holiday and Lee is not a bad idea.

      If we trade Melo we will have a huge hole at the wing and Holiday and Lee can help fill that hole until we can get better players. You seemingly cannot have too many wings these days.

    56. we have been talking about building a “system and culture” for 3 years now. just saying

    57. If anybody is dumb enough to draft Josh Jackson over Fultz and Ball they should be handed their walking papers.

    58. Not to defend Dolan, but…..
      If you are a Knicks season ticket holder, you probably are drunk. And, if you have nothing better to do than go see them play Chicago, there’s a pretty good chance you are an asshole.

    59. @68 lolol

      @65 Ben I was trying to say something like that upthread but you did it better and more concisely.

    60. Dennis Smith was kind of my “one guy I don’t want” player for a while but after assessing these guys some more he seems to be pretty much even with Fox and Ntilikina to me as an overall prospect.

    61. Agreed with lavor postell RE Baker. Offer him that deal.

      Last night I referred to Holiday as this year’s Galloway. Worth bringing back up to a point. I’d offer him 3/$12 or so. A bit more if LT could be moved. Yeah, he’ll probably get more elsewhere. I think Phil made the right move on Galloway last year.

      I really hope the Knicks can somehow parlay some combo of Melo, OQ, and/or Lee into another first round pick in this draft. Bring in 4 new guys to add to KP, Willy and co. The first cut should be Sasha. He probably wants to keep playing somewhere, but offer him an assistant coach deal.

    62. One thing good about Phil Jackson is he gives us something to look forward in June, the draft.
      Which makes him better compare to other Knicks gm in the past.
      Before Phil we are like the kings, not winning and no draft picks.

    63. It was a little bit different with Galloway.

      During that season he was 24 and although his overall number weren’t very good, there was some hope that he could improve. Holiday is mostly a finish product. On average this is what you will get from him in the next 3 years.

      But I don’t think anyone was asking to sign him for 3 or 4 years at 8 million per. Most of the posters wanted a sub MLE contract.

    64. I don’t know much about what makes a good basketball player — I’m just a stupid fake-stats guy — but maybe Dennis Smith’s little t-rex arms make for a better shooter. I dunno. I have no faith in lottery picks anyway.

    65. “I don’t know much about what makes a good basketball player — I’m just a stupid fake-stats guy —”
      I wish that I could believe that you really mean what you say.

      KP is out tonight btw.

    66. Baker has shown the ability to play solid defense, so why not bring him back? He’s sucked so far, but if he can shoot better you might get a useful player for dirt cheap. If not, well, not much wasted.

    67. I played the lottery mock draft thing on ESPN this morning and the Knicks got the no.1 pick (and selected Fultz) on the first go. As such, I am willing to fly over to the States and be the Knicks representative on lottery night.

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