Knicks Morning News (2017.01.22)

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks drop another close one, this time to Suns
    (Sunday, January 22, 2017 2:27:48 AM)

    There are the games you think you shouldn’t lose and the games you can’t bear to lose. On Thursday night, the Knicks were dealt the former. On Saturday night, they experienced the excruciating disappointment of the latter.

  • [NY Newsday] Derrick Rose not hearing whistles on his drives anymore
    (Sunday, January 22, 2017 12:47:40 AM)

    Derrick Rose was dribbling in the second quarter at Madison Square Garden on Saturday night, and then in a blink of Eric Bledsoe’s eyes, the Knicks point guard was gone. He blew past his Suns counterpart and took the ball down the lane before jamming it through the net.

  • [NY Newsday] Carmelo Anthony remains the key to Knicks’ playoff hopes
    (Sunday, January 22, 2017 12:43:01 AM)

    Carmelo Anthony has been involved in three played-out Melo-dramas this season, and not one was directly created by him.

  • [NY Newsday] Suns’ Earl Watson praises Carmelo Anthony’s offensive skills
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 10:25:49 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony may not be feeling the love from his own ownership, but opponents lately have done nothing but lavish praise on the Knicks’ much-maligned superstar.

  • [NYPost] Why Porzingis-Chandler confrontation is a good sign for Knicks
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 9:10:37 PM)

    With 2:18 left in the game Saturday night at the Garden, Kristaps Porzingis was walking toward the Knicks’ bench during a timeout when he was bumped by Tyson Chandler. It seemed innocent, but Porzingis took offense to the nudge, stopping to glare and go chest-to-chest with Chandler before players and officials stepped between them. It…

  • [NYPost] A dejected Carmelo: ‘I was just thinking the ball was in’
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:30:48 PM)

    There Carmelo Anthony sat, slumped on the scorer’s table, dejected and dazed in disbelief. Coach Jeff Hornacek threw an arm around Anthony’s shoulder. A few fans also showed the star forward support by patting his back. The potential game-winning 3-pointer already was being replayed in Anthony’s head. Already, he was wondering how the ball that…

  • [NYPost] Derrick Rose takes passive-aggressive approach to no-calls
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:28:56 PM)

    It wasn’t what Derrick Rose said. It was more what he didn’t say about his drive to the basket. With 28.5 seconds left, Rose drove after Devin Booker put the Suns up two points with a huge 3-pointer. Rose appeared to draw contact, but there was no call. “I am going to let you all…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ same old story: A painful Carmelo Anthony miss at buzzer
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 5:11:07 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony took the inbound pass from Ron Baker with 6.3 seconds remaining. With the Knicks down two, Anthony was thinking win. So he came around a screen by Baker, arose from 25 feet on the right side and fired over the Suns’ T.J. Warren. “I was thinking the ball was in,” Anthony said. So…

  • [NYPost] ‘The next Marc Gasol’ is becoming a Knicks steal
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 1:38:35 PM)

    Knicks rookie Willy Hernangomez, the 22-year-old, 6-foot-11 bundle of potential, has heard the comparison before — many times before, in fact. But it still gets him excited and makes him proud when he is linked to one of his idols, Marc Gasol, the Grizzlies’ two-time All-Star and former Defensive Player of the Year. “When I…

  • [NYPost] A Knicks and Carmelo divorce gets more sensible by the day
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 12:06:23 PM)

    Sounds like Knicks management and Carmelo Anthony need to have another conversation about his long-term future in New York. Anthony told Newsday in an article published Friday that if the Knicks want to trade him, he’d be willing to listen to what they have to offer. “I have to consider it,” he told the Long…

  • [NYPost] Carmelo puts pressure on Phil Jackson: I may leave if you ask
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:49:10 AM)

    Phil Jackson asked Carmelo Anthony if he wanted to remain a Knick. Now Anthony is publicly putting the onus right back on Jackson. The Knicks president and star met Tuesday to clear up the rumblings around the marriage, where Anthony, who has a no-trade clause, told Jackson what he has always said: He wants to be…

  • [NYTimes] Suns 107, Knicks 105: Ball Rolls Out, and Knicks Again Roll Over, Falling to Suns
    (Sunday, January 22, 2017 5:31:44 AM)

    With time running out, Carmelo Anthony hoisted a 25-foot 3-point attempt, a shot he thought would go in. It did not, and the Knicks absorbed their 13th loss in 16 games.

  • [NYTimes] On the Warriors’ Bench, Life Is Good
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 5:51:32 PM)

    James Michael McAdoo may be the last player on the bench for the N.B.A.’s best team, but his work ethic and attitude make him a valued member.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony is beating Phil Jackson at his own mind games
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:57:53 PM)

    Jackson got what he wanted; he poked Carmelo to the point where Carmelo would consider an amicable divorce.

  • [NYDN] Carmelo Anthony misses potential game-winner in Knicks loss
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:57:29 PM)

    Jeff Hornacek has tried everything.

  • [NYDN] Gregg Popovich thinks Wizards, Lowe ‘got off easy’ with Knicks
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:56:27 PM)

    The Knicks are angry. But Gregg Popovich is angrier.

  • [NYDN] Jax turns Carmelo Anthony into a sympathetic figure with silence
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:47:19 PM)

    Phil Jackson has actually done more for Carmelo Anthony than giving him a mega bucks contract with a no-trade clause.

  • [NYDN] For sake of Knicks’ rebuilding, Anthony, Jackson have to go
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:31:57 PM)

    Carmelo nor Phil will win this time, as the Knicks keep losing.

  • [ESPN] Wiz, Lowe ‘got off easy’ with fines, coach says
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 9:14:45 PM)

    Wiz, Lowe ‘got off easy’ with fines, coach says

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks lose another close one to Suns, 107-105
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:59:36 PM)

    The Knicks continued a string of close losses Saturday, falling 107-105 to the Suns at Madison Square Garden. It was their sixth consecutive loss in a game decided by four points or fewer.

  • [SNY Knicks] Tonight’s Game: Knicks vs. Suns
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 6:20:42 PM)

    The Knicks look to get back in the win column in a matchup with the Suns at 7:30 p.m.

  • [SNY Knicks] Noah available Saturday against Suns
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 5:54:34 PM)

    Knicks center Joakim Noah is available to play in Saturday night’s game against the Suns, the team announced.

  • [SNY Knicks] TheKnicksBlog Podcast: Not for Sale
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 4:45:37 PM)

    Anthony Donahue and Moke Hamilton discuss the future of Carmelo Anthony — the remaining years on his deal and his desire to stay in NYC. Later, Ant and Moke get into the Knicks’ win over Boston and Courtney Lee’s Dumb & Dumber post on Instagram.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks get chance to rebound against Suns
    (Saturday, January 21, 2017 12:53:21 PM)

    Two of the more defensively-challenged teams will clash at Madison Square Garden on Saturday when the Phoenix Suns meet the New York Knicks.

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    Mike Kurylo

    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    181 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2017.01.22)”

    1. Knicks are way better than their win-loss record.
      – We are the best in the NBA at almost making threes.
      – We’re the best at nearly covering the high pick and roll.
      – We have the best bench And they’d start on every team in basketball.
      – We are among the best at nearly closing out on threes.
      – Our strategy of encouraging guards to try and score is sheer brilliance. They take the most inefficient shots. It’s not the Knicks’ fault their shots go down.
      – Melo’s recent scoring explosion reflects his overall commitment to hard work and his teammates and is no way reflective of his recent ridiculous All Star snubbing or the unjust hammering he’s taking for being a self-focused black hole. His effort and production is consistent on both ends of the court. He’s a winner.
      – Phil Jackson knows something the rest of the league doesn’t . He’s on another plain. He’s the Desert Fox to everybody’s Montgomery.

    2. Can someone explain to me why its this big disgrace for Phil openly admitting he wants to trade Melo? The failure to produce a viable winner isn’t just his. Now mind you, this team has actually gotten worse since last season because of his terrible signings but Phil also inherited a huge fucking mess. Did anyone in their right mind believe he was going to turn this roster over in three seasons into a contender with no first round draft picks in two of his first three seasons and a lack of free agent options? The failure to win is as much Melo’s as it is Phil’s for crying out loud. Melo wasn’t able to attract any major free agents himself, Melo’s efficiency as a scorer has declined in these three years, and he hasn’t even played all that many games either.

    3. We have no idea how much unfettered autonomy PJ has . The hybrid win now while rebuilding around KP with over valued/paid name stars might be a function of ownership demands, rather than PJ’s flawed vision. Anyone who knows how to do a case study of successful NBA franchises, and as has been posted here ad nauseam, would not accept the current strategy. In my view the frequent mantra here ” because Knicks” is code for uneducated, autocratic interference by Dolan. Thus, imo we head to yet another possible knicksy tipping point about the future with the decision about Melo, Rose, et al. It has pointed out before by Brian Cronin that the Nets current paucity of draft picks places them significantly behind the Knicks in rebuilding, while also noting that because the Nets now have competent management, that they are likely to pass the Knicks, if the Knicks do not adopt a cohesive coherent action plan. We may get some answers over the next few weeks.

    4. Why would the Knicks want to trade a prodigious shooter, perceived by other players as a great scorer, with a near max contract, who less prodigious shooters want to play with, when he brings such a great and marketable name like “Melo?”
      He’s a great leader, with clear vision, who always puts team first and never pouts.
      His willingness to sacrifice his offensive output for defense is the embodiment of a team that is the epitome of a phenomenally quasi-episodically stout defense.

      Melo is a fantastically wealthy success story. Having him makes the Knicks more attractive. He’s a guy you build around.
      He makes twice as much as Steph Curry.
      He makes almost twice as much as Jimmy Butler.
      He makes a third more than Kawhi Leonard.
      He makes more than Chris Paul.
      He’s worth every penny.

    5. @4

      To me Phil and his people have excelled in one facet – they have identified and found some good, promising young talent whenever they’ve had the opportunity. KP, Willy, Kuz, and Ron aren’t a bad group considering the lack of draft picks available to this franchise the past three seasons. To me, that’s enough of a cohesive plan for a vision forward as we’ve had in a long time because the style of basketball they play is some of the most team-oriented basketball we’ve seen in a while. They share the ball, seem coachable, and want to play as a unit despite each of their clear limitations. You can really build around that going forward with coaching and patience.

    6. @5
      Totally agree, but would not the rebuild be more efficient and effective had mgt not diverted resources to rent Rose and acquire Noah?

    7. The Knicks and Jackson excel at finding inexpensive bench players every year that offer a hope of a future trade for a past performer unburdened by expectations of a better future.

    8. @6

      Totally. I don’t quite understand Phil’s thinking in certain regards. But, as you point out, the plan for this franchise hasn’t totally been about rebuilding. Melo made it clear he wanted a squad to win now and had no patience for a rebuild project. That expectation to produce a winner is part of what makes this team so schizophrenic.

    9. Phil didn’t inherit a huge mess, and if he did he got out from underneath it midway through 2015. It was Phil Jackson who gave Melo $122M and a NTC and it was Phil who gave Joakim Noah $72M and Courtney Lee $48M without even calling Hassan Whiteside. Three contracts are currently what has the Knicks’ outlook looking bad, and they are all the doing of Phil Jackson.

      So yes, this losing situation is Phil’s fault. There’s no other way to look at this. If Phil admits he wants to rebuild he will be admitting what everyone else already knows and that is that his tenure here has been a Phailure 3 seasons in. The only difference between this year and 2014 is that we have a first round pick that makes the losing all worth it.

      It’s not that Phil had to turn us into a contender in three years. Nobody in New York would have a problem with 19-25 if the team was young and promising. Instead we have 3 starters over age 30 and a point guard who has had 3 knee surgeries. The Knicks win totals since Phil has been here:

      2015: 17 wins
      2016: 32 wins
      2017: 19 wins and currently 6 games under .500

      Phil sucks. He’s been good at getting European guys and Kyle O’Quinn. Everything else he’s done has been mediocre to bad.

    10. Say what you want about Carmelo Anthony, but he is the single reason Phil Jackson could not hire Kurt Rambis to be head coach.

    11. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Because of the age, salary, and recent injury history- we are most likely stuck with Noah & Melo. Definitely Noah. If Phil can move a couple pieces around and leave us with young players/controllable assets and shooters around KP/Noah/Melo, I’d be ok with that. That means moving some or all of Lee/25/Holiday/Jennings. I bet LAC would LOVE to have Jennings right now. SVG says a Shmurda/Rubio deal will not happen, but I’d bet if Phil threw 25 in the pot, it would get a deal done that would send Shmurda to Minny with Lavine the odd man out- possibly meaning a pick or even Lavine in NY. If Phil focuses on adding youth and other assets as opposed to focusing on moving Melo, I think he can get stuff done.

    12. Supertanker….type in superteam and the auto-correct is supertanker. This is not a joke.

      hahahahahahahaha I nearly spat my orange juice!!

    13. Phil Jackson has not been focused on youth since he’s been here. He’s been focused on his triangle offense and taking pot shots at players on and off his roster via Charley Rosen.

    14. Phil didn’t inherit a huge mess, and if he did he got out from underneath it midway through 2015.

      We were a team that finished 8 games under .500, didn’t have two of our next three draft picks, had Raymond Felton as its starting PG, Tim Hardaway as its SG, and Andrea Bargiani as its starting C/PF. So basically, we were a talentless team with one superstar who was about to become a FA and no draft picks.

      I find it funny that signing Hasan Whiteside was the move forward that Phil missed out on which would have fixed our troubles. The same Whiteside who didn’t play in the NBA for two seasons between 2012-2014.

    15. took a break from my vacations to come and say that George Hill who’s totally not better than Melo has destroyed the Pacers yesterday and Utah is seventeen and four when he starts.

      my phone is also broken and I can’t type numbers hahaha

    16. And you can tell me that KP, Willy, Kuz, Baker = “some European guys” until you’re blue in the face as if it diminishes their worth but there is at least one starter, a potential starter, and two solid bench pieces there. Its a damn good value for where each player was taken.

    17. Phil Jackson has not been focused on youth since he’s been here.

      And yet I would put his youth up against the youth this franchise has accumulated in the past 14 years before he arrived. I would put it over the caliber of youth Isaiah and Walsh acquired combined.

      KP/Willy/Kuz and Ron vs. Lee/Gallo/Fields/Douglas.

      Which would you prefer?

    18. Hassan Whiteside is currently leading the NBA in rebounds per game, blocks two shots a night, has a .569 TS% (better than all Knick starters), and a WS/48 of .156 (also better than all Knick starters). Signing Hassan Whiteside to a max contract would have been a slam dunk and not calling him when we needed a center was a terrible idea.

      And everyone on that 2014 Knicks team was gone a season later excepting Melo. This mess is undoubtedly Phil’s mess. We’re a capped out loser the same way we were 3 years ago. He’s been better than the previous dreck (and by he I mean Clarence Gaines), but Phil needs to go.

    19. Id rather have a guy who brings four times more wins than losses in fifty games than Melo for eighty two games

    20. @Derrick Needs His Space

      Jackson inherited the best situation since Layden. He had a star with a great deal of trade value, and pretty much every contract on the books was set to expire within 15 months of his arrival. And it’s not like Melo was the only guy with value. Tyson and Shumpert weren’t great values but both could garner interest on the trade market. The main reason the Knicks weren’t good in 13/14 was because of Bargnani and Stoudemire eating cap room, and again, both were set to expire after Phil’s first full season.

      The picks thing was a huge problem, but when a GM/President gets fired, it’s usually because he’s created a bad situation, so few new GMs walk into Pleasantville. As far as new situations, Phil’s was pretty good.

      Jackson’s problem is that his plan failed. He thought he could outsmart other GMs or use his 12 rings to convince free agents to come to NY, and they didn’t to no one’s surprise but Phil’s. Had he accepted from the get-go that even if things had gone well in 14/15 and the Knicks had won 40 games or whatever, no premiere FA was coming here… Had he accepted that he wasn’t this big ticket that could woo talent this way, he would have done’ the only sensible thing and traded Melo and Tyson for picks.

      Rather than trying to find cheap talent through undrafted players and 2nd rounders, he’d have had some higher quality prospects with a higher likelihood of panning out, and maybe rather than our future being KP + Willy “Enes Kanter if We’re Lucky” Hernangomez, we’d likely have a couple more prospects with at least a solid starter outlook… Guys of a similar caliber to Sam Dekker or Rodney Hood. You can find that kind of talent if you get prospects/picks that aren’t these long shot types.

      One more lotto pick this summer, and we’d be looking at potentially making the playoff next year WITHOUT the terrible cap burdens of these ancient players.

    21. Get Phil Jackson a medal! He’s done a better job than Donnie Walsh, Scott Layden, Glen Grunwald, and Isiah Thomas!

      Those guys sucked too.

    22. ans if we signed Hassan everybody would be saying how ‘Phil plucked up , KP is our center for the future’.

      I think Phil last hurrah should be putting a youthful core in place. He can still do accomplish that with Noah’s contract on the books but most likely it would start with moving melo

    23. @21

      Whiteside’s VORP is also a minuscule 0.3. Compare that Kyle O’Quinn’s and Joakim’s 0.8 and 1.0 VORP scores. Also, that WS/48 of .156 you’re touting that’s so great is only .09 points higher than KOQ. Hmmmm….and we didn’t have to give KOQ a massive contract to get it.

      Its just so laughable that people think Whiteside is the difference between meaningful contention and our dismal state. Its like yelling at the crew of the Titanic for not patching it up better after hitting the iceberg. Sure, a better job could have been done but it was a sinking ship either way.

    24. How would we be saying Phil messed up? Would signing Whiteside have been worse than signing Noah through 2020? How about if we whiffed on Whiteside but offered 24 year old Bismack Biyombo the same $70M contract he got in Orlando?

      Considering what we got and for how much money we paid, we could have done a lot better.

    25. The picks thing was a huge problem, but when a GM/President gets fired, it’s usually because he’s created a bad situation, so few new GMs walk into Pleasantville. As far as new situations, Phil’s was pretty good.

      That’s euphemistic doublespeak. Its not fucking normal for a GM to inherit a shitty sub. 500 team with no first round picks, no talent, and a FA star who was able to ransom him into a deal on a rebuild. Find me any situation as fucked as that since 2013-14. Look at each sub-.500 team that season and find me a worse situation for a GM to step into. No picks, no young talent, and a disgruntled star ready to leave.

    26. @25

      A medal? No. He certainly deserves at least as much time as they’ve gotten if not more.

    27. The point isn’t that Whiteside would have saved our season. It’s that he’s 4 years younger than Joakim Noah and will give you more production over the life of the contract than what Noah will give us. It’s also a hell of a lot easier to sell free agents on joining Kristaps Porzingis, Hassan Whiteside, and Carmelo Anthony than it is to sell them on the same group plus Joakim Noah.

    28. Noah signing wasn’t terrible we all liked it when it happened… the problem was Phil overpaid, three years was all he should’ve offered for $17m per

    29. Why does Phil deserve more time when we can just fire him and keep Warkentein and Gaines Jr. in the front office? So next season he can take shots at KP for not passing enough or for not being enough of an inside presence? He has proven that he cannot develop this team into a winner.

      I can’t wait for him to re-sign Derrick Rose so we can hear about how much more time Phil Jackson deserves.

    30. How was the Joakim Noah signing good? I love Joakim Noah, I think he’s our 2nd best player behind Kyle O’Quinn, and I’m probably his biggest supporter but I would trade him yesterday. His contract is one of the worst in the league.

    31. Derrick Rose gets you 18 points a night and “his misses help generate good offense” so don’t be surprised when we re sign him.

    32. RE: Phil’s mess:

      I can certainly see the argument for both sides. I do think it’s a little more gray than folks are painting it to be. Phil came to a team that was clumsily built, as he accurately stated before. Given the roster and lack of picks, it was definitely a mess to clean up. Beyond that, the biggest mess of it all was the dysfunction at the top. Dolan and company REALLY believed that acquiring all star players would fix everything, when all that does is make the on court product look better. That said, for all his talk of culture change, all Phil has done was added to the dysfunction more than he subtracted. As things stand now, his best moves have been Hornacek, KP, Willy, KOQ, Kuz, Baker, Lee and Plumlee. Way more potential than actual production. I wouldn’t give a damn if Phil had signed Whiteside and LeBron. As long as there is dysfunction at the top, this team will never realize any potential.

      So..it’s not all Phil or Melo’s fault. It’s the environment that has been unwittingly cultivated. Phil and Melo deserve alot of blame, but they’re only part of the problem- maybe only 40% max. It’s like marriage, sometimes you hafta put pride and ego to the side to allow course correction. No one has done that.

    33. I don’t think everyone liked the Noah signing. I think we all like Noah. He’s been a great player, one who plays the game in a style that anyone who grew up watching Ewing-Oak-Mason can appreciate. He’s a cool dude too, fiery in the right way. And he’s a New Yorker. He might have been a Knick without the Eddy Curry trade, which has always been a painful counterfactual for me.

      But he is also on the older side, injury prone, and not good enough to put us over the top in a way that would justify paying him what we are paying him with what his projections are for the next couple of years.

      Also, whoever got the Nets job got a far worse situation than Jax.

      We should have cut ties with Melo. It was a sunk cost we should have written off. Hopefully, it’s not too late to correct the mistake.

    34. @36
      By that logic the koq signing offsets Noah’s contract. $20 m for two players who are both productive, looking at the glass half full.

      So for everyone thing Phil does right he does something to phuck it up.

    35. @32

      It’s that he’s 4 years younger than Joakim Noah and will give you more production over the life of the contract than what Noah will give us.

      No, I am sorry, that is the point. You said “this losing situation is all Phil’s fault.” And the great indication you gave for how much better we could have been right now is us not giving Hasan Whiteside the same megadeal that Miami just overpaid him to get. So what is your point? That Phil should have overpaid for another talent who won’t make us into a contending team for the duration of his contract with a VORP below Noah’s and barely higher than KOQ? C’mon

      It’s also a hell of a lot easier to sell free agents on joining Kristaps Porzingis, Hassan Whiteside, and Carmelo Anthony than it is to sell them on the same group plus Joakim Noah.

      Yes, Kevin Durant would have been knocking down our door to join us instead of the Warriors with Hasan Whiteside as our center. That’s the difference between our 19-26 record and contention. Jesus.

    36. Why does Phil deserve more time when we can just fire him and keep Warkentein and Gaines Jr. in the front office?

      Who says they want the job? Who says they are even suited for it? Why does it matter if we get the same result?

    37. @Derrick Needs His Space

      You’re making it more complicated than it is. If you went back to 13/14 and held an auction to see what value in trade you could get for all the players on every team in the NBA, and then you tallied it all up in addition to future draft picks while factoring in bad contracts, the Knicks wouldn’t even be bottom 5. Here’s a list of teams that were definitely more asset poor that year: Pistons, 6ers, Bucks, Lakers, Kings, Nuggets, Nets, Bobcats.

      All those teams would probably have been willing to give up their best player + picks just to get a Melo caliber player.

      YOu wanna say Melo held the team ransom? Then every free agent player holds his team ransom.

      It’s not about how much young talent you have. It’s about how much *value* you have. You want to rebuild, you trade that value for young talent. Jackson missed that window, keeping Melo and then giving him the NTC, and then trading what value he did have beyond Melo to get Calderon and more cap space, and then finally using that cap space to bring in veteran declining players. That was a bad call, and it’s why his team sucks now.

    38. Except you’re wrong and my point still stands. Not targeting Hassan Whiteside was one of Phil’s mistakes. The Derrick Rose trade was another. Carmelo Anthony’s NTC? Huge error. The Joakim Noah and Courtney Lee signings? More mistakes. And how is a 27 year old Mindaugas Kuzminskas youth to be excited about? He’s in the prime of his career right now.

      It’s easy to say “hey if Phil didn’t hand out over $200M in bad contracts he’d be a good GM!” But he did hand out those dumb contracts and they will hamstring us for the next 3 years. Spending money is a huge part of being an NBA executive and Phil sucks at it. He will likely continue to suck at it and it will likely keep us from being 5-10 wins better a season.

    39. All those teams would probably have been willing to give up their best player + picks just to get a Melo caliber player.

      I thought Melo had a NTC that year.

    40. @latke

      +1

      It always comes down to value, and the Knicks usually pay more than the actual value of a player or give up their players for less than what they’re worth.

    41. Melo got his NTC in summer ’14. Either way, I think the point was that the NTC was another mistake of Phil’s

    42. Except you’re wrong and my point still stands. Not targeting Hassan Whiteside was one of Phil’s mistakes. The Derrick Rose trade was another. Carmelo Anthony’s NTC? Huge error. The Joakim Noah and Courtney Lee signings? More mistakes.

      Not really since Whiteside looks like another mistake for the contract he’s making. Which is precisely the point – there was no easy FA fix to make this team a winner. You want to tell me that we shouldn’t sign Rose, Noah or Lee and you get no argument from me. Where you will get an argument from me is that this team wasn’t still in the mess created by the situation Phil inherited when he took over in 13-14. Its a structurally flawed team whose only recourse a full rebuild, top to bottom. And considering that Phil has done well in the one aspect that this team needs moving forward (building via draft) I will give him the chance to continue that project.

    43. My point, again, was that the slate was wiped clean midway through the 2015 season. Everything we are dealing with right now are decisions made directly by Phil Jackson, and we still suck.

    44. Here’s a list of teams that were definitely more asset poor that year: Pistons, 6ers, Bucks, Lakers, Kings, Nuggets, Nets, Bobcats. All those teams would probably have been willing to give up their best player + picks just to get a Melo caliber player.

      Brushing past the fact most these teams had their picks moving forward and their star players locked up, I find it especially hard to believe these teams would have traded what you just said for half a season of a player who was going to enter FA. You think Detroit was going to trade Andre Drummond, plus a pick for Melo on the chance he chooses to resign with them? Knowing what we know with the NTC you have three options which Melo wants to go: Cleveland, LAC and LAL. Back then he probably had it narrowed to either LA, Chicago or NYC where he wanted to resign.

      I just find this so unbelievable.

    45. My point, again, was that the slate was wiped clean midway through the 2015 season. Everything we are dealing with right now are decisions made directly by Phil Jackson, and we still suck.

      This is just so untrue and pure 20/20 hindsight. You don’t wipe away a lack of draft assets and major talent holes in two seasons. The only thing we had to build upon from that 2013-14 team was Melo, which was contingent upon offering a NTC. Everything else either didn’t exist (like our lack of picks), was bound to be traded away at low cost (Chandler, JR Smith, Shumpert) or let go of (STAT, Felton, Bargiani, etc) for next to nothing.

    46. Whiteside had an amazing two years before this one, and so I’m more likely to countenance that he’s way better than Noah or O’Quinn despite his comparatively disappointing numbers this year (where he’s playing on a bad Miami team and struggling to perform in his new role as “the guy” on offense.)

      Phil has been a bad GM even if inherited a mediocre-to-bad situation. He’s made good plays at the margins, and in drafting KP, but that’s literally it. You can’t be a good GM just by making good plays at the margins.

      However if he manages to blow this team up in even a semi-competent fashion I will think much better of him.

    47. Yeah but you don’t have to hand out huge contracts while you are reloading your youth. Look at what Danny Ainge is doing in Boston; he’s essentially the anti-Phil Jackson in that he sucks at acquiring youth through the draft/free agency but he’s top tier at handing out contracts and trades. He didn’t hand out one big contract until last summer and that’s when his team had come off a 48 win season. Phil was looking good until last summer when he screwed us up with the Noah and Lee contracts. One bad contract is workable; look at what the Warriors were able to do with the David Lee deal on their books. But three is too much and I don’t think Phil is worth having around considering his inability to extract value from trades and sign players to good contracts. He’s also a loudmouth and has singlehandedly created a media shitshow through his comments about the team’s star player.

    48. Phil is just the latest in a long line of Knick GMs who refuse to enact a plan that has a time horizon of more than one year. They all think they can get into contention quickly and with a couple of easy moves. Obviously that comes from the top. Either Dolan orders them to operate that way or he only hires people who think that way.

      When you’re continually trying to quick-fix a 30-win team, your mostly likely outcome is a 30-win team.

      Dolan’s refusal after 15 years of ineptitude to try something different is astounding. Even lab rats stop reaching for the food when it’s electrified.

    49. @52

      According to VORP Whiteside only had one amazing season, largely because of his terrible offensive value.

      But I agree that the main issue moving forward for Phil is to blow this situation up ASAP as thoroughly and productively as possible with our young group and picks intact.

    50. @53

      Phil definitely an egomaniac who really fucked up with the Noah and Rose deals (I think Lee has value and his contract isn’t so terrible it will stop us from anything forward). But his failures have to be contextualized within the crazy situation he stepped into. He had one bankable asset when he came to take over the job and that was a player who demanded a NTC and a win now revamp. How can we judge him until that asset finally removed? His job isn’t close to being done despite all of the mistakes he’s made along the way. We finally have a GM who is oriented to the future and he actually has made good decisions in that regard. The idea that his replacement will be better is a major assumption.

    51. I actually agree with both of you to some extent!

      Phil inherited a mess. He has picked up some nice players; to try to wave off that as just a bunch of “euros” is unfair. KP and Willy are very nice guys to build around. He’s made some nice value pickups like OQ, Kuz, Ron, and Plumlee. Ron and Plum might remain around as decent rotation players. Oh, and so far he’s kept all the Knicks #1 picks going forward.

      The Lee and BJ deals are okay. Lee is worth his contract and is eminently movable if desired as all teams covet three point shooting. Not a bad deal. BJ expires, so bye bye. The Chandler trade was not good, but I liked the idea behind it (get rid of malcontents and takes some flyers on young talent). Larkin (who’d been a 1st rounder the year before) and the 2nd round picks did not work out, though Phil’s been better since then on that front with minimal picks (see Willy, Baker, and Plumlee).

      Now, on the other hand, he has made some MAJOR mistakes. The NTC remains a huge albatross around Phil’s neck. The Rose trade. The Noah signing. Also, he totally botched his first head coach signing. Maybe even add the insistence that Rambis remain on H’s staff.

      The Rose trade to me is more about his sullenness and totally unwillingness to play D rather than what was given up. Getting him blows up the idea of “building a culture” of success. I liked Lopez and Grant, but they are replaceable. Holiday has been a nice pickup and there is a 2nd round pick in a very deep draft. At least Rose expires….but then there’s Noah. A likable guy, but just hurt all the time and aging…and the Bulls knew it.

      Yeah, and the Knicks weren’t getting Whiteside. He was resigning for MAX money from Miami, and everyone knew it.

    52. @Derrick

      I think you’re kinda forgetting what Melo was in 13/14. He was 29 and widely considered one of the top 8 or so players in the league (sometimes higher) by all but statheads. Look what Love got from the Cavs… Melo could have easily gotten the same package. As far as the contract extension was concerned… I think that had ot be worked out with Love just as it would have had to be worked out with Anthony.

    53. @58
      I really think that Phil’s one true fatal error was in thinking that he could take Melo to the next level as a player. He said as much to the press early on. Perhaps that’s why he resigned him with the NTC rather than look to deal him to Chicago or Houston (two teams strongly rumored to be interested in him at the time).

      But, he doesn’t have another level. On occasion he will flash some nice playmaking skills, but not consistently. And, he just does not care about defense.

      My fear is that Phil knows that Dolan will remove him from power unless he makes the playoffs this season. In that case, Melo and Rose will stay. The only good thing about that now is that it is, in effect, tanking.

    54. @58

      You’re also missing the context of any trade at that point. For all of the whining about the NTC the situation for Phil back then wasn’t much better in terms of options to move Melo. He had acquired (deservedly so IMHO) a bad reputation for his obstinacy during his last season in Denver and how he leveraged the Knicks into trading extra assets for him so he could make more money on the extension instead of FA market. He had half a season left and was notorious for not wanting to play for a small market team. It was the main reason he left a good situation in Denver to go to far worse team in NYC.

      To say the market for Melo in that context was the same as it was for Kevin Love is just untrue. Why would Detroit, for example, trade Drummond and their first round pick for half a season of a player who publicly said he wasn’t signing an extension trade or no trade that season? You think Melo was going to stay in a market like Detroit when he all but forced his way out of Denver to NYC? If we didn’t resign him, Melo was going either to Chicago or LA via FA. That was it.

    55. Phil is faulty at big contracts; lets say Phil can move melo for less sizable shorter contracts and perhaps a pick. We could be in a good position heading into the offseason.

    56. Phil is just the latest in a long line of Knick GMs who refuse to enact a plan that has a time horizon of more than one year. They all think they can get into contention quickly and with a couple of easy moves. Obviously that comes from the top. Either Dolan orders them to operate that way or he only hires people who think that way.
      When you’re continually trying to quick-fix a 30-win team, your mostly likely outcome is a 30-win team.
      Dolan’s refusal after 15 years of ineptitude to try something different is astounding. Even lab rats stop reaching for the food when it’s electrified

      Agreed. And also, lets not cast away the fact that Phil is lucky that some in the league still value Melo & 25. So in that regard, he still has time to turn it around. Many GM’s try and have unsuccessful moments. Our Knicks have been unsuccessful for so long, I can see where it is VERY hard to build the more prudent way. This team is in a market with white hot lights and doesn’t have a history of being consistently uncompetitive for more than 2 seasons in a row. We’re spoiled in that regard.

    57. @59

      If Dolan is moronic enough to remove Phil with less time served than he did Scott Layden, Isaiah Thomas, or Donnie Walsh after the mess he created then he really is the dumbest motherfucker in NBA history. We don’t even have a clue of what our team will be until Melo is gone. I seriously believe we don’t even have a clue of how our offense or roster looks together until he’s gone and our coaching staff has full power to run the team on the court as they see fit.

    58. @61

      Agree. If he can somehow get Melo to waive his NTC and parlay him for a first rounder for this coming draft I’d actually consider Phil’s tenure a plus.

    59. Isiah Thomas is one of the best GMs ever at drafting NBA talent. As a negotiator, he was just as bad as Phil Jackson.

      Check out Isiah Thomas’ drafting history before writing stupid things.

    60. @64
      Agreed, but let’s remember who/what Dolan is.
      :-)

      BTW, Phil has a monster ego. Maybe he guaranteed to Dolan that he’d have the team turned around within 3 years. If so…

    61. This team is in a market with white hot lights and doesn’t have a history of being consistently uncompetitive for more than 2 seasons in a row. We’re spoiled in that regard.

      We haven’t been competitive for at least 14 of the 17 last seasons. And even then our best result was getting shellacked in the 2nd round of the playoffs against the Pacers after barely squeaking by a washed up Celtics team without Rondo.

      We’re not spoiled at all.

    62. Derrick Needs His Space To say the market for Melo in that context was the same as it was for Kevin Love is just untrue. Why would Detroit, for example, trade Drummond and their first round pick for half a season of a player who publicly said he wasn’t signing an extension trade or no trade that season? You think Melo was going to stay in a market like Detroit when he all but forced his way out of Denver to NYC? If we didn’t resign him, Melo was going either to Chicago or LA via FA. That was it.

      This true for any superstar who gets traded. No, Detroit wouldn’t take him if Melo didn’t want to stay there just like Detroit wouldn’t take Love if Love didn’t want to stay. Any superstar heading to UFA is probably looking to join a good team or a team in a big market. My point is that Melo had that level of value, and there was nothing unique about him that made him harder to trade than any other star on an expiring deal.

      @ClashFan

      I think Melo has done better than most players at taking advantage of his gifts and working to improve as a player as he’s gotten older. You don’t survive to age 32 in the NBA without working your ass off. I think Melo, for example, adapted over the course of his career more than Kobe ever did. I don’t know how much more you could have expected from him. He just wasn’t half as physically gifted as Kobe.

      Had Phil gotten some talent around him, then I think he could have come close to reproducing what he did in his 2 best years – 12/13 & 13/14. I just think Phil proved himself either arrogant or clueless when he decided he could add the requisite amount of talent in Melo’s limited window.

      And yeah, Melo isn’t the ideal player from a character and personality standpoint. He isn’t Tim Duncan or John Stockton, who always understood exactly how good they were and always focused on doing whatever they could whether it would make a highlight or not, to improve their team. But I don’t think as far as max contract guys he’s any worse than average in that…

    63. @66

      Isaiah could draft talent and his negotiating was horrendous but that wasn’t even the worst aspect of his GM ability – it was roster construction and evaluation. Time after time after time he put together some of the most discombobulated rosters ever known to man (Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury backcourt coached by Larry Brown anyone?) and gave away serious value to do it. Just horrendous.

      Phil at least understands that putting together a winning roster means more than just stacking as many big time scorers together as possible and thinking their ppgs totals would add up to a 120 point per game team – a facet of roster construction Isaiah never seemed to master. It was as if Isaiah saw rosters in arithmetic terms where you just add raw stats together and out comes a winner as if it were an NBA 2K game. At least Phil seems to get (I think) that the sum of a team is greater than the whole of its parts.

    64. No, Detroit wouldn’t take him if Melo didn’t want to stay there just like Detroit wouldn’t take Love if Love didn’t want to stay. Any superstar heading to UFA is probably looking to join a good team or a team in a big market. My point is that Melo had that level of value, and there was nothing unique about him that made him harder to trade than any other star on an expiring deal.

      I don’t understand how you reconcile two contradictory statements in this passage: on the one hand you admit Detroit wouldn’t trade for Melo if he didn’t want to stay there (which he didn’t) and then say he had the same level of value as a Kevin Love who was willing to play in a small market team like Cleveland. Commodity value only has meaning in market context. You acknowledge the possibility of a major difference in market context (the fact that a team won’t trade major assets for a star player who doesn’t want to stay there after being traded) and then overlook it to argue there is similar level of value in each case. Well, that isn’t true if one player wants to stay and the other doesn’t.

      In fact, its interesting this is the comparison you raise between Melo and Love since they are antithetical to one another as trade commodities in the past. Melo was a small market player who regularly chose to play in a losing environment because of the destination. Love was someone who sought out a winning environment regardless of the destination.

    65. At least Phil seems to get (I think) that the sum of a team is greater than the whole of its parts.

      Correction. I mean the whole of a team is greater than the sum of its parts.

    66. You don’t survive to age 32 in the NBA without working your ass off. I think Melo, for example, adapted over the course of his career more than Kobe ever did

      Yeah, but Kobe hustled on both ends of the court. I can’t say that about Melo throughout his career.

    67. Phil at least understands that putting together a winning roster means more than just stacking as many big time scorers together as possible and thinking their ppgs totals would add up to a 120 point per game team – a facet of roster construction Isaiah never seemed to master.

      Really?

      How many winning rosters has Jackson put together?

      Lol…

      They are both TERRIBLE gms, but Isiah Thomas at least, is one of the most successful gms in history at drafting (and nothing else).

    68. We haven’t been competitive for at least 14 of the 17 last seasons

      My point exactly. We are not used to that. Up until Layden, we had competitive squads way more often than not. I’m not thinking recent history here, because it is only recently that we’ve become “accustomed” to not being competitive. We’re not Minny or LAC or even the Griz or Nets- teams who have a history more consistent with being not competitive than it does with actually being competitive. Each of their teams have had their moments, sure. I’m 39, and in most of my fandom, the Knicks have been not only popular- but competitive. Minny/LAC/Griz/Nets have not. That’s what I mean when I say we’ve been spoiled in that regard. Even before I became a Knicks fan, we were more competitive than not. Maybe I should have worded it differently, but what’s I meant.

    69. @ 76 – yeah no.

      The Knicks were good and sometimes great in the 90s. No championship but it was a great time to be a Knock fan. You could say that with pride.

      Before that…the 80s…not as bad as the last 16 years but it was some good, some bad, mostly average.

      We won 2 championships in the early 70s but that’s before my time (I’m 39 too).

      I cling to the 90s and my youth too but reality is we’ve been bad for a very long time.

    70. How many winning rosters has Jackson put together?

      I said he understands the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I never said he put a winning roster together. All of this talk about Phil’s fixation with the Triangle misses the point that what he’s trying to accomplish, right or wrong, is to create a system where players can be plugged into a work as a whole. That’s at least an understanding of roster construction which is algebraic because it looks how parts operate together. Isaiah’s logic was “how many star/scorer can I put on this team.” It was arithmetic. He probably loved to see STAT and Melo on the same team even though he didn’t make the deal.

    71. @77

      Yeah, I am with swiftandabundant on this one. Knicks have been a woeful franchise far more often than not in the past 40 years whose relevance is more attributable to the location they play and the sports lore that surrounds it (The Garden, Rucker Park, etc.) than any past team accomplishments.

    72. You look at a great player like Kawhi Leonard, for example, and its easy to see how he would not be as offensively effective on team that doesn’t prize ball movement where the ball regularly stops and players are asked to create their own offense. Leonard, for all of his many talents, not a particularly good isolation scorer for example (33% FGA). Imagine if he plays on a team like ours with a PG like Derrick Rose and a PF like Carmelo Anthony to play next to? But he plays for a team like San Antonio, which minimizes isolation play and structures an offensive team system designed to get him and his teammates the ball high percentage shots and you see how efficient he becomes.

    73. I said he understands the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

      While you may think that, what is the difference? He may be trying to create a cohesive unit that works together, but if the results are just as bad or worse than Isiah’s method of roster construction, why does it matter? Both GM’s have shown that they have no idea how to put a winning basketball team together time and time again, and both have made egregious mistakes that can be pointed out by anyone paying the slightest attention.

    74. It’s frustrating to lose like this night after night, but our only chance of being good this year was if KP broke out to star level in only his 2nd year. He did not. So unquestionably the best thing that can happen to this team now is that lose every game, gain a chance to draft another important piece for our rebuild, and encourage Melo to leave while we can still get something back for him.

      I have a question that I think needs to be discussed.

      With all the talk of KP moving to C soon, exactly how does he fit with Hernangomez long term given that he’s our 2nd best prospect and also plays C?

      I’m not suggesting we move Hernangomez any time soon. I think he’s going to be a solid starter in a couple of years and maybe even better than that. I’m just thinking about the fit with KP long term.

    75. While you may think that, what is the difference? He may be trying to create a cohesive unit that works together, but if the results are just as bad or worse than Isiah’s method of roster construction, why does it matter?

      The results are not “as bad as worse” by longshot. Yes, we have a bad team with some crappy contracts but the difference is that Isaiah would have managed to have the same quality of shitty roster without any of our picks or KP on it. We have at least accumulated young promising talent that wants to play together as a team.

    76. You look at a great player like Kawhi Leonard, for example, and its easy to see how he would not be as offensively effective on team that doesn’t prize ball movement. He’s not a particularly good isolation scorer for example (33% FGA). Imagine if he plays on a team like ours with a PG like Derrick Rose and a PF like Carmelo Anthony to play next to where the ball regularly stops and players are asked to create their own offense?

      While the Triangle promotes ball movement, Phil still didn’t do a particularly good job of acquiring players that fit this mold. He made the deals for Rose and Melo. Everyone knew Rose was the epitome of anti-triangle point guard. Phil apparently couldn’t piece together that players matter when trying to plug them into a system. The Spurs would not be the same team if they made the same stupid roster mistakes that Phil made, and they would play a different brand of basketball.

    77. I am happy that Phil is attempting to accumulate young talent (even sometimes accidentally). Let’s hope that his ability to draft productive players is close to the level of Isiah’s.

    78. With all the talk of KP moving to C soon, exactly how does he fit with Hernangomez long term given that he’s our 2nd best prospect and also plays C?

      I’ve been thinking about this a lot as well. We could go positionless and just play them both out there at the same time and they could swap roles at will (especially since Willy likes to operate out of the post.) But it seems as if Willy is interested in learning how to shoot better from outside, as we’ve seen with his tentative 3 balls and jumpers (he’s shooting 47 % from midrange and 30 % from 3 on low volume.) If he learned how to shoot, we could put him in the 4 position where he could have a really nice inside/outside game.

      We can also put KP in spot minutes at the 4. Perhaps Willy comes off the bench but closes out games like GSW death lineup.

    79. With all the talk of KP moving to C soon, exactly how does he fit with Hernangomez long term given that he’s our 2nd best prospect and also plays C?

      I’m not suggesting we move Hernangomez any time soon. I think he’s going to be a solid starter in a couple of years and maybe even better than that. I’m just thinking about the fit with KP long term.

      We should start playing them together as much as possible together to get that figured out. In the very limited minutes they’ve played together it looked pretty good. Hopefully we trade Kyle to free up more minutes for Willy.

      Its a good problem to have though.

    80. @ swift and Derrick
      Ha! True..I remember the MacLeod year..HORRIBLE, and the Don Nelson experiment was bad. But I also remember the Stu Jackson, Pitino, Riles, JVG tenures. I dunno..I guess.. personally, I wouldn’t call the team woeful- maybe because the good years were so much better than the bad years. But I can’t really argue against it when you consider the Chaney/Zeke/Fisher teams. Larry Brown gets a pass from me because not only is the dude a great coach..Zeke screwed him over big time, much like Phil is screwing Hornacek over now. What was it that Bill Parcells said about Jerrah? “If I’m going to be asked to cook the meal, I’d like to be able to pick the groceries”? In any case, shit hit the fan and the team became woefully inept & dysfunctional once Guitar Jimmy ran JVG off.

    81. @85

      I would put KP and Willy up next to any of the players Isaiah has brought to the Knicks. Especially when you look at players Isaiah passed up on getting in drafts like LaMarcus Aldridge and Joakim Noah.

    82. Also I think Willy is a top 5 rookie this year, along with Dejounte Murray, Brogdon, Juan Hernangomez, and Poeltl

      Juan looks really really good though. wish we could have grabbed him. Willy might have the higher ceiling if he can develop his passing ability, though (Willy has a chance to be Gasol-esque whereas Juan looks like he could be a super efficient stretch 4. those are their respective ceilings as i see them at least.)

    83. Sure, Phil didn’t have a lot of assets to work with when he came here. But he fucked up, because he took the few assets he DID have, and converted them into nothing.

      He had Tyson Chandler. He could have flipped Chandler for draft picks or valuable players on rookie deals. Instead he traded him primarily for a “win now” point guard named Jose Calderon, who mostly stunk out the joint. Calderon was supposed to be the ideal triangle point guard. In actuality he was the ideal “allow the other team to dribble into the paint” point guard. He did get some other pieces in the Chandler deal– a couple of second round picks, Sam Dalembert and Shane Larkin– but all of that added up to bupkis. So at the end of the day he converted a valuable asset, Tyson Chandler, into nothing.

      That trade was to be a harbinger of Phil’s tenure. He was playing “win now” ball right out of the gate, when it was obviously rebuild time. I think a lot of people, myself included, gave Phil some benefit of the doubt on that deal, because of his track record as a coach. But at this point his overall ability as a GM is clear: he inherited a mediocre team and made a bunch of lateral moves. They’re right back where they started 2.5 years into his tenure– they’re a mediocre 35-win type team with an asset here or there but not really a team that looks poised to break out in a year or two.

      He’s not very good at this.

    84. While the Triangle promotes ball movement, Phil still didn’t do a particularly good job of acquiring players that fit this mold. He made the deals for Rose and Melo. Everyone knew Rose was the epitome of anti-triangle point guard. Phil apparently couldn’t piece together that players matter when trying to plug them into a system. The Spurs would not be the same team if they made the same stupid roster mistakes that Phil made, and they would play a different brand of basketball.

      I don’t have an issue with him keeping Melo because that was a move to preserve an asset that could be traded down the line as opposed to letting him go for nothing. Also, it does bear noting that Melo in theory is the type of player who can function in any system he wants. Its not as if he doesn’t have the talent to work in that system, he simply chooses not to adhere to it. And while Rose is a horrible type of guard for a pure “triangle system” that Hornacek doesn’t even run, his acquisition of players like Willy, Noah, Lee and KOQ does show he’s thinking of the pieces that would fit his system.

    85. He had Tyson Chandler. He could have flipped Chandler for draft picks or valuable players on rookie deals

      People keep making Monday Night GM comments like this but I looked at the trades made that season. I don’t see where one team got a first round pick for a veteran player that season. I think we’re overvaluing Chandler’s worth at that time. He was injured and his stats took a serious dip that season. Same thing with Shump and JR. Both of those guys were not hot commodities for different reasons.

      But at this point his overall ability as a GM is clear: he inherited a mediocre team and made a bunch of lateral moves. They’re right back where they started 2.5 years into his tenure– they’re a mediocre 35-win type team with an asset here or there but not really a team that looks poised to break out in a year or two.

      If we were right back where we started we’d have no KP, no Willy, no first round picks for two of our next three drafts. And say what you want about Noah but he’s not as bad as Bargiani and Lee is a better SG than Tim Hardaway Jr. KOQ is also an asset. The real difference is that Melo has declined every season since he was 29 years old. But, again, I won’t blame Phil for not resigning him since the alternative was letting him and getting nada in return.

    86. It’s funny how Calderon and Rose have similar issues neither one passes like a Pg should and neither one could defend their positions.

      On top of that his two veteran Sgs that he picked up have similar problems in that they are quality 3 ball shooters whose low volume of 3pt shots reduce their effectiveness as offensive players. They also contribute nothing else to the game when it comes to rebounding and passing plus their reputation for being good defenders were over exaggerated.

    87. Phil Jackson specifically admitted he could have gotten Jae Crowder instead of the pick that turned into Cleanthony Early. That was clearly he wrong decision.

    88. I love how many of you guys say our players and their deals suck in one breath, and that we should trade them for youth and pics in another.

    89. I would be perfectly fine w/ the Rose trade if the signing of Noah had been for 1 less year.

    90. For what it’s worth, I know that Clarence Gaines likes NDour so I wouldn’t give up on him as part of our future. KP Willy Baker Kuz NDour Plumlee is encouraging going forward. Plus 3 draft picks this year. Stay strong.

    91. Plus 3 draft picks this year. Stay strong.

      It should be 4 once Phil mans up, admits the team is in full rebuild mode and gets Melo traded.

    92. @93
      Agree re the Tyson Chandler trade. I also disagree with an earlier post that that was a “win now” trade by Phil. I don’t think so.

      I think it was an attempt to begin to retool the “culture” and pick up some young assets. Felton and Chandler had become malcontents who needed to go. As you said, Chandler had been hurt, too.

      In return, Calderon was a good guy and willing passer. I see getting him as more of a “hold the fort” guy. Larkin had been a mid-1st the year before, and also 2 second rounders came in.

      I think the trade was a good try that didn’t really pan out, so I’d grade it a D. Larkin and the 2nd rounders turned out to be whiffs. And Calderon’s defense was really atrocious.

      Now, of course, Calderon is later replaced with a guy, Rose, who is as bad defensively but also sets back the “culture” quite a bit…

    93. It’s clear that there is a very low bar for Phil with some folks.

      “He’s not as bad as some of the worst GMs of all time!”

      That’s his great accomplishment here. This is truly an abused fan base. We’ll take regular incompetence over rank incompetence and be thankful for it.

    94. @102 What is your opinion on Ingram on the Lakers? Is he a bust or a slow learner? Could we get Ingram and a pick for Melo?

    95. You can’t really count Larkin as a potential asset because Phil opted to not pick up his option before he even suited up as a Knick.

      Does anyone think Rose might have some trade value? He is playing well enough, the best ball since his injury and is still a former MVP. If you squint and don’t look at defense he seems like a high quality PG. Do you think anyone would be interested as a half year rental/audition for a contract. There are other bad GMs out there.

    96. @103

      I am glad you mentioned it because I was hesitant to do it on a stats-oriented site, but the Chandler/Felton, Shump, and especially JR Smith trades were all about changing the culture on this team quick. Its a very real possibility that Phil pulled the trigger on trades to get rid of these guys way too soon at a time when their value was low, but I find it hard to imagine that any of these players were going to fetch a significantly greater value on the trade market than what we got at the time. Even a Jae Crowder wasn’t a major haul at the time. He ended up starting 41 total games in 3 seasons for the Mavericks. Acting like he was a better value than Shane Larkin at the time of the trade is really 20/20 hindsight in full effect.

    97. That’s his great accomplishment here. This is truly an abused fan base. We’ll take regular incompetence over rank incompetence and be thankful for it.

      One day detractors like you will realize that giving Phil credit for his few accomplishments as our GM and isn’t the same thing as lauding the greatness of his accomplishments. That will be the day you recognize what a strawman argument is.

    98. I don’t see where one team got a first round pick for a veteran player that season

      The same team that traded for Chandler traded a first rounder for Rondo later that season. It’s really kind of shocking to see how much better Ainge did in return for a worse player.

    99. @102

      I am always hesitant about raw and underdeveloped guys like Ingram who look like they should have stayed in college but jumped to the pros before they were ready. Considering how many top flight HS prospects fizzle out in college, I would say we could do better in a trade with LA. But if taking him meant the difference between a trade or no trade, I wouldn’t hesitate.

    100. The same team that traded for Chandler traded a first rounder for Rondo later that season.

      You think Chandler’s value to the Mavericks was comparable to Rondo’s?

    101. Two important games for the Tank Playoff run are happening today. The first, already in progress, is LAL v. DAL and the second is DEN v. MIN. Denver is only one win behind us for the season while LA is three back. Here’s to hoping they both lose. But even if they don’t, Minnesota’s got 15 wins and Dallas has 14. They aren’t too far behind us yet.

    102. The main problem Phil has had managing the team is named M E L O.

      I’m not blaming Melo. I’m saying if you have what some people consider to be a “star player to build around”, you almost can’t blow it all up and go with all young players and draft picks around him. It wouldn’t be fair or smart. The mistakes were in not parting ways with Melo right from the start and not recognizing that he’s not a #1 player on a top team. Most people here (and in the advanced stats community in general) knew he was very overrated. It was no mystery. It was barely controversial. Either he did not recognize it or he was afraid to pull the trigger on a move like that. He compounded it with the NTC.

      Phil probably knows a thousand things about basketball I will never know. But I think the advanced stats revolution left him the dust in terms of measuring how productive players are. He’s old school. He looks at “skill set” and “fit”, but he doesn’t measure player productivity well. There have been too many moves where it was almost unanimous here that the players he got sucked but for some reason Phil liked him. Then we’d be proven correct.

      There are probably a dozen regular posters on this forum that could do a better job of evaluating player productivity than Phil even if we all know less than him about coaching and basketball in a more general sense.

    103. You think Chandler’s value to the Mavericks was comparable to Rondo’s?

      At least, if not more so. But either way, the question was just whether first round picks were available for veterans that year, right?

    104. I just wanna say..alot of you are talking about Noah as if he’s STILL playing horribly. No..he’s not worth the deal Phil gave him at this point and the defense still sucks (more coaching and scheme than Noah), but his last 10 games or so- he’s been exactly what we probably hoped he’d be post injury. Double digit rebounds, a steal , a block , around 6 or 7 points (I admit that should be higher), and general orneriness towards the opposition. Maybe if Hornacek could hire his own defensive coach and install an actual scheme, Noah wouldn’t be a lame duck. But..yes..that was a bad value signing

    105. It was frustrating being a Mets fan under Omar Minaya, because it was obvious that he was miles behind the curve w/r/t advanced stats. He clearly didn’t understand BABIP and FIP (known then more commonly as DIPS) and similar concepts. Hell, he didn’t even really grasp the importance of OBP.

      He was pretty good with the draft, but didn’t get asset management, and he was horrible in the free agent market. Phil is similar to Minaya in many ways.

    106. I think it’s best to grade trades at the time they were made. The Tyson deal was fine, it just didn’t work out.

    107. Before the season was over prior to the Tyson to Dallas trade Cuban admitted he thought it was a mistake to let Tyson go and still covered him.

      Phil Jackson had all the leverage and only managed to get Felton of the books.

      He continues to pkg bad with good Just like he did with Lopez. Its funny how it was reported about the struggles Phil had trading Calderon when all it took for the Bulls to trade him was two 2nd rd picks.

    108. If Phil was an otherwise good GM I’d defend the Chandler trade. Tyson was still good in 2013-2014, but less so than usual and he missed a bunch of games. We had no reason to think he’d turn that around in his age 32 season (which he did), and had every reason to believe it was the beginning of a serious decline (it wasn’t). I disagreed with the strategy of trading Chandler for guys that were supposed to help us “win now” (Calderon and Dalembert), but the pieces we got that were more geared towards a long-term vision didn’t seem terrible at the time. Larkin was a first round pick the year before with a good college statistical profile and 34 is a nice pick to have. We definitely could’ve gotten more if we waited until the 2014-2015 deadline but Tyson also could’ve suffered a serious injury and left us with nothing.

      Of course, Phil then immediately declined Larkin’s option and drafted a shitty player at 34. He’s an awful GM. In a vacuum the trade didn’t suck though.

    109. I didn’t hate the Chandler trade at the time, and I think a lot of us gave Phil the benefit of the doubt because of his track record. I’m not trying to bash that trade. Hindsight is 20/20 and so on.

      Still though, it was a harbinger of what was to come: Phil is not the world’s most patient GM, and he’s a short-term thinker. On one level, I get it. He’s old, and he is probably not gonna be the GM here beyond his 5-year contract. He wanted to see results more quickly.

      That’s not what the team needed though. It needed a rebuild. It still needs a rebuild. He doesn’t seem to really want to do that.

    110. Rondo was having one of his super weird Rondo seasons in Boston before the trade to Dallas-he was averaging 12 assists and 8 rebounds per 36 while maybe also being detrimental to the offense (but maybe not?). I think the Mavs thought they were smart enough to maximize his strengths, but instead it went way, way wrong.

      They did also get Dwight Powell, who is low key good.

    111. @117 Jowels, I have come a long way on Chandler. I can admit when I was way off and I was about Chandler. He was a great player. It’s a fucking shame that we were not able to aquire 1 solid defensive wing player to pair with him. As Shump has been exposed for being a fake defender

    112. I think it’s best to grade trades at the time they were made. The Tyson deal was fine, it just didn’t work out.

      Oh, you know I’m all about that. I gave the Chandler trade a C at the time, and I’ll stand by that, while also noting the same thing that thenoblefacehumper said. I wanted them to deal Chandler for a pick and not use him to dump Felton, but I thought that they got an okay haul once they determined that that was what they wanted to do. In other words, it wasn’t the type of deal that I wanted them to make, but as a deal in a vacuum, it was an okay, not bad not good trade.

      I’m just saying that they probably could have gotten a first for Chandler if that was the direction they has chosen to go in.

    113. @117 Jowels, I have come a long way on Chandler. I can admit when I was way off and I was about Chandler. He was a great player. It’s a fucking shame that we were not able to aquire 1 solid defensive wing player to pair with him. As Shump has been exposed for being a fake defender

      The interesting thing was that the Knicks did give him a good defensive support staff one year, when they had Lin guarding the one (not a great defender but not awful), Shumpert guarding the two (where he was best used on defense), Fields guarding the three (where he was best used defensively) and Jeffries guarding the four (which he was really good at). That team was top five in the NBA in defense.

    114. Chandler played some great ball as a Knick and we’ll always have Linsanity. Too bad he was gimpy during the playoffs.

      I can’t remember what i thought about the Chandler trade but I know I was sorry to see him go.

    115. “There are probably a dozen regular posters on this forum that could do a better job of evaluating player productivity than Phil even if we all know less than him about coaching and basketball in a more general sense.”

      Now them’s fighting words.

    116. Seeing noah be somewhat useful is a good thing but i think its clear that he cannot handle starters minutes…. koq has a much more robust game than all the other bigs but he gets jerked around for whatever reason…

    117. Seeing noah be somewhat useful is a good thing but i think its clear that he cannot handle starters minutes…. koq has a much more robust game than all the other bigs but he gets jerked around for whatever reason…

      I just can’t wait to see the team go young this season. It’s great that Noah is finally rounding into better form, but I wanna see what KOQ, Willy, and Plumlee can do with extended or more consistent minutes. Each of them have strengths to bring to the table. Then, if and when they falter, you just up Noah’s minutes again

    118. I think a computer algorithm that merely targeted players based on some rudimentary WP/WS:expected salary ratio would build a better team than Phil. I fully believe that’d be a very flawed way to build a team but at least you’d be likely to wind up with guys who were good at some stuff. No Jason Smiths, Derrick Roses, etc. Phil just does not have a good sense of production. When he acquires good players (KOQ, Hernangomez, Kuz) it’s because they caught his eye. I don’t think there’s an ounce of statistical evaluation involved.

    119. I really don’t think that Noah has played well recently despite his rebounds. He hurts us in so many ways when he’s been out there.

    120. I would absolutely love rubio on this team… but those rumors are probably leaked by rubios agent or his camp…

    121. Noahs been passable but i think a large reason we are bad on defense is because of him and having kp on the perimeter…. so i agree that hes been pretty bad…. its just that he has some uses if we dont overextend him…

    122. If we trade for Rubio then I think that we would keep Melo and still try for the playoffs this year. On paper that should be a pretty good team.

      Rubio/Jennings (assuming that Rose is traded)
      Lee/Baker/Holiday
      Noah/O’Quinn/Plumlee
      Melo/Kuz/LT
      KP/Willy

      We would probably have to trade another player of course to make the deal happen and acquire Shabazz Muhammad.

    123. This team is falling apart.

      They are not one Ricky Rubio away from being “pretty good”

      Specially if you consider that we will have to give something at least decent to get him.

    124. as I want some change to this losing culture; I’m not seeing the logic of Rubio.

      Is he a building piece to pair with KP?

      Maybe I don’t know his game enough to appreciate some upside… seems like a euro Jennings. Idk

    125. Phil is similar to Minaya in many ways.

      This is a fair comparison, IMO. But an important difference is that in basketball talent evaluation goes way further towards building a legit winner than it does in baseball. If you can identify the top players in every draft coming out of college/FA every year it goes a way longer way than in basketball because most of the development is done before they hits the professional circuit. In baseball, it still takes 3 years of development through A-levels and more complicated roster construction. Its why I am willing to stick with Phil, if he can get us a few future all-star type talents we are in a very good position.

    126. I think Rubio would be a huge upgrade and short us getting one of the top 2-3 PGs in this draft probably the best PG we really have a shot at over the next couple years. I would be okay building with KP, Rubio and Hernangomez as our core. I think Rubio is a very solid starting PG. You just need scorers around him. He is a plus defender and an outstanding passer.

      Plus if we were lucky enough to be able to grab Ntilikina we’d still need a PG for the next 2-3 years till he’s really ready to start. Rubio is perfect in that role and if he ever gets consistent with his 3 pt shot (possible since he is solid from 16+ and a 80%+ ft shooter) he becomes a very nice player long term.

    127. I don’t like the idea of a Rubio trade right now either. It jeopardizes The Tank because it takes away our LVP Derrick Rose from the team.

      BTW, we had great developments in that area today. Phoenix (15 wins) actually managed to beat Toronto, Dallas (15 wins) beat the Lakers (16 wins), and the Timberwolves (16 wins) beat the Nuggets (18 wins). The West is gradually picking up steam.

    128. As much as a high pick sounds good. Passing up ways to upgrade this team over the next 2-3 years, for the very small chance that we tank into the top half of the draft is a bad move. Even with a Carmelo trade and other moves we still probably win at least 25-30 games and will best case be in the 8-10 range with our pick.

      Passing up on Rubio, a top 15 PG who is 26, is a bad move just so we can maybe tank, which knowing this team we won’t do successfully and will end up picking at #10. Besides if the management really decides to tank they can always sit Rubio down, with a minor injury, for the stretch run.

    129. Chandler played some great ball as a Knick and we’ll always have Linsanity.

      Hate on me all you want but I find it very telling that the most memorable phase of the Melo era during the last 6+ years was the two week Linsanity period that happened in early 2011.

    130. Even with a Carmelo trade and other moves we still probably win at least 25-30 games and will best case be in the 8-10 range with our pick.

      That’s the difference between getting a Ntilikina and not getting him at all. And I am sorry, but as much as I like Rubio, I will rather go for the high upside project at this stage in the team’s rebuild phase than a serviceable middle of the road starter. Its that type of logic which has always doomed this team to mediocrity. With Rubio, we’re maybe a 35-40 win team? Is that worth a shot at a guy who could be very special and develop with KP and Willy?

      Also, the problem isn’t trading for Rubio because, as you rightly point out, we can sit him. The problem is that we lose Rose, who is so crucial to our tank he could propel us to the bottom under the right circumstances.

    131. rubio… for as bad of a shooter that he is… is a very close approximation of the latter years of jason kidd…. bad shooting.. low usage but great assist/steal rates…. and when we had kidd … melo had a career year and our offense was 3rd in the league…. if rubio ever gets a 3pt shot.. he’s easily a top 10 pg…

      not saying rubio is going to transform us into an elite offense…. but our offense will almost certainly be better and i’d say our defense will be slightly better also… his faults are something that you can live with because he brings alot of other things to the table… especially when kp and melo are at their best when others create opportunities for them….

      he’s 26 and on a very good deal…. i honestly don’t know why the wolves want to deal him….

    132. and i wouldn’t be concerned about rubio ruining the tank…. he basically only adds 2 wins this season which easily get wiped out from the games we lose due to the transition… if we need to shutdown kp then it’s not going to matter anyway….

    133. Hate on me all you want but I find it very telling that the most memorable phase of the Melo era during the last 6+ years was the two week Linsanity period that happened in early 2011.

      To be fair, Linsanity is among the most memorable periods in all of sports since the new millennium started, so that’s not really a knock against Melo, in my eyes.

    134. Its not just Rubio, its the lack of a player in Rose who is the driving force behind our tank. I seriously believe we could be a borderline a .500 team right now with even a mediocre PG. If we trade Melo and/or KOQ then that’s a different issue because then we’ve gutted ourselves of enough talent to propel our dissent. But trading for Rubio is a mistake right now. Our tank is too fragile.

    135. @148 You’re making me want Rubio more and more. The fact that the Wolves won tonight even without Rubio (who attended a funeral) might make it easier for them to trade him. Kris Dunn had 9 assists for them.

    136. You’re making me want Rubio more and more

      You would. Trading for Rubio at the fragile stage of our tank is the most Knicksian thing we can do, which is why it must never happen at all costs.

    137. @Derrick Needs His Space

      Love was leaving Minnesota because he was sick on being on a mediocre small market team, just like Melo. Yeah, Melo’s team was a little better, and we’ll never know exactly why he left, but according to Ruru, the market size in Denver had just as much to do with it as George Karl.

      So from my perspective, Rose and Love’s motivations for leaving were if not identical, similar, and if the Lebron/Kyrie core had existed in Cleveland back in 2011, I think Melo probably would have asked to be traded there or at least told Ujiri it was an option.

    138. Do you really think Ntilikina is a sure thing? He has very high upside but he has done nothing against adult competition at this point. He has a really good chance at being Exum pt 2. Rubio isn’t just a move to make us better now but could very well be our solution at PG for the next 5 years. He’s not a stopgap player. Plus Melo is still probably getting traded and we will get worse.

      We need to be real about this tank, it only happens if the front office wants it to happen. If they do then they can shut down Rubio and play more Baker as our starting PG to “see what he’s got”. If they are not on board we will win 35 games and be out of the mid lottery even with no Rubio.

    139. Love was leaving Minnesota because he was sick on being on a mediocre small market team, just like Melo

      Minnesota was a losing small-market team which had not gone to the playoffs since 2003-04. To say it was mediocre on the same level as Denver, a franchise which had gone to the playoffs every year since 2003-04 (including a trip to the Western Conference Finals a year before Melo was traded) is a real disservice to the Nuggets. In essence, Melo opted out of a winning club with 8 years of postseason presence to play on a perennial loser in a big market. Kevin Love opted out of a perennial loser to be with a legitimate contender.

    140. @154

      I don’t think anything is a sure thing. Ntilikina is a raw, physically underdeveloped player with a shoddy handle and a lack of burst off the dribble. But I do believe that the Knicks as an organization needs to stop being a franchise of half-measures and commit to a full rebuild around players who project to have a bright future together. Trading for Rubio is another instance of the Knicks choosing a half-measure, mediocrity instead of trusting that its scouts can identify top talent and its coaches can develop it into something major and perennial for years down the road.

      As it stands, Ntilikina is already a far better shooter than Exum ever was coming out Australia and projects to be a freakish defensive player with a 7’o wingspan. Think of the implications that such a player could have in our backcourt defense. He was the MVP of the U18 tournament leading France to a title, the last two French teams of such caliber were led by Tony Parker in 2000 and Nicolas Batum in 2006, two good NBA players without as high a ceiling.

    141. If the trade is something like rose and koq for rubio…. you shouldnt hesitate at all to get that done….

      Ntilikina is a fine prospect but a)he is far far from a sure thing b)we would still be able in about the same pick range with or w/o rubio and c)you could always trade rubio at a later time….

      Part of building a team is getting good players…. rubio is a good player… if we arent giving up much then its a no brainer….

    142. Part of rebuilding is accumulating franchise players first, then adding mediocre players. Adding mediocre players before you accumulate franchise talent is putting the cart in front of the horse. Its why the Knicks are always in basketball purgatory, because we jump at the latest mediocre player a losing team wants to shed instead of trying to draft prime talent and build it up. If Rubio was so good, Minnesota wouldn’t try to trade him and keep Dunn. Instead, they’re doing it the right way by going at their rebuilding in the reverse order: they’re developing a young stud and shedding a middling veteran for an asset.

    143. I am neither here nor there on trading for Rubio. I think unless you are getting a franchise changing PG (think Chris Paul kind of thing) ready to contribute off the bat; it’s probably worth at least having a youngish vet running the team in the interim, and Rubio could do that. Obviously his outside shot is fairly rubbish, but a good passer like Rubio could do well in Hornacek’s system and could potentially push the pace and get some nice looks for KP and Melo if he is still around.

      Or you just keep Rose for the rest of the season and hope you end up with an alright pick. Outcome pick wise is probably going to be the same with either Rose or Rubio, hence why I am not fussed with the move (assuming any deal would involve Rose).

    144. Rubio’s contract runs for two more years after this one, so he’d really be kind of a stopgap. I’d do it if the T-Wolves were dumb enough to send him here for Noah, but come on, nobody could possibly be that dumb.

    145. Damnit, I just don’t understand you guys. We’re supposed to be tanking here to get a high pick in one of the most talented drafts in recent memory. Is a o.8 VORP, .110 WS/48 type player really worth losing out on a lottery pick? Because we’re right on the cusp of going from 12th over all to 8th pick. All it takes is a big, demoralizing losing streak. And we need our LVP for that task.

    146. let’s put it this way… we’re projected to finish around 35 wins and that puts us at pick #11…. in order for us to break into the top 10… we need to be worse than sacramento, new orleans, minny or orlando… and close about a 3 game gap between all those teams…. it’s just not happening unless kp or melo miss serious time…. the best you could hope for is probably #10 unless we strike lotto luck but the odds are virtually the same between #10-14 for that to happen….

      on the other side… we’re competing with denver or portland for the #11 or 12 pick… it’s pretty tight but i think both will finish with a better record.. but in any case… if rubio is worth 2 more wins over the course of half a season…. it’s the difference between the #11 or #12….

      it’s a bit ridiculous to pass up on talent for tanking purposes… we’re too far into the season for that and our positioning now has us basically locked into a range…. if we lose kp for the season or trade melo then we have a shot.. but that’s more likely a shot at pick #8 or 9….

    147. I’d do a Rose for Rubio trade only because Rubio has actual trade value, so if the Wolves would take him for Rose, that’d be moronic of them, but good for the Knicks. The Knicks could then flip Rubio for something even better. I bet you could get a first for Rubio while I doubt you could get one for Rose.

    148. Swapping Rubio for Noah is worth what, like half a win over the rest of the season? It’s not like we’d just be adding Rubio’s production, we’d be subtracting Noah’s. Noah has some value in his own right. He’s the only guy on the team that knows how to pull down a defensive rebound.

      Doesn’t matter though because it’s not happening because nobody wants Noah’s terrible contract.

    149. we need to be worse than sacramento, new orleans, minny or orlando… and close about a 3 game gap between all those teams…. it’s just not happening unless kp or melo miss serious time…. the best you could hope for is probably #10 unless we strike lotto luck but the odds are virtually the same between #10-14 for that to happen…

      We have the 4th worst record in the Eastern Conference over the past last ten games (3-7) and are tied for the 6th worst record in the league in that span. Yes, I definitely believe we can close a gap on most of those teams if we continue trotting out the same lineup we’ve been trotting out in that span. I especially believe we will sink like a rock at the bottom of lake if we manage to get Melo to waive his NTC and leave here.

      But I most certainly believe that we won’t do it if we half-ass our free fall by removing our .058 WS/48 point guard who is playing 32 minutes per game and replace him with a middling talent. And if we do add a middling talent like Rubio, what will it accomplish? Will it make us a playoff contender anywhere down the line for the next few years? I don’t see it. So what’s the fucking point, guys? Why is it that we have this insatiable urge to construct a perennial 35-42 win team every moment the opportunity to do so presents itself? How has that worked well for us the past 17 years?

    150. The Knicks could then flip Rubio for something even better. I bet you could get a first for Rubio while I doubt you could get one for Rose.

      If the Wolves can’t get a first rounder for Rubio what makes you think we can get one for him?

    151. i’ve said this before… and i’ll say it again…. we are a solid pg… with melo even… from being about a 48 win team next year…. of course some things have to break right but if kp makes a leap… then it very easily happens….

      46-48 wins isn’t championship caliber but no matter what we do it’s going to take awhile to be better than the cavs…. and that’s not even including outpacing the celtics and sixers with their better draft positioning in this year’s draft and their core…. and also what milwaukee’s building with giannis and not even having middleton….

      we don’t have the luxury to pass up talent… and if the twolves think dunn will be better than rubio then we should absolutely help them out in that regard….

    152. Rubio’s not really a long-term piece anyway. His contract runs through the 2018-2019 season. The season after that will be his age 29 season, and color me uninterested in an extension that covers Ricky Rubio’s decline phase. The Wolves and Knicks don’t really seem to be ideal trade partners here.

    153. i’ve said this before… and i’ll say it again…. we are a solid pg… with melo even… from being about a 48 win team next year…. of course some things have to break right but if kp makes a leap… then it very easily happens….

      No, we’re probably not because too many things would have to break right including KP staying healthy and playing around 33 minutes/game and Melo staying healthy as he gets older even though he’s averaged 54 games per season in his seven seasons as a Knick.

      But even if we were, so what?

      We’d be a team six games over .500 fielding a mediocre lineup. You want to build a team to be an 6th-8th seed that gets bounced by the Cavs, Celtics, and/or Raptors in the first round?

      I really don’t understand the logic behind this goal.

      Not only is it a surefire road to mediocrity, it actually squanders another season where we should have traded Melo before his value completely dries up. So we won’t even be able to rebuild as easily should something go wrong and our team ends up with 36 wins instead of 46.

      Its logic like this that has mired us in the dregs of the NBA for the past 17 years. Let it go and try something new.

    154. yeah if the Knicks trade Melo for future considerations and waive or trade Rose, they will probably only win 5-10 more games this season. There is only one team projected to win fewer than 27 games — the Nets. Because there are so few tankers this season, it’s still feasible to get a top 3 pick. Now, if we wait another month and the team strings some wins together, it gets a lot harder.

    155. If the Wolves can’t get a first rounder for Rubio what makes you think we can get one for him?

      The Wolves don’t want a first rounder. They’re specifically looking for a “bridge” to Kris Dunn. I doubt that that bridge would be anyone on the Knicks, so there likely isn’t a fit between the two teams, but if they’re dumb enough to take Rose for Rubio, I’d do it. The Wolves could get a first rounder for Rubio if that’s what they were looking for.

    156. @170

      Then I’d do it after we get Melo to waive his NTC. I bet we could fleece Sacramento into giving us a 2018 first rounder for him.

    157. Melo is only waiving the NTC if they engineer a trade to an acceptable location. I don’t imagine Sacramento is on the list.

    158. @172

      I meant we trade Rubio to Sacramento for a mid-first rounder. I would trade Melo wherever we could. But that Rubio trade is contingent upon moving Melo.

    159. Marc Stein
      ESPN Senior Writer

      Carmelo Anthony’s streak of seven consecutive All-Star appearances is on the line. He was last snubbed in 2009 …

    160. The only place I could see Melo agreeing to go to that might be interested in him is the Clippers. Doc might be just desperate enough to pull the trigger, and Paul and Melo are friends. I doubt that it happens though.

      More likely, the Knicks pull it together somewhat and play near .500 ball the rest of the way, finish 37-45, miss the playoffs, and get around the #10 pick.

    161. @175

      Contracts and the right to switch future picks should be the aim with that trade.

    162. More likely, the Knicks pull it together somewhat and play near .500 ball the rest of the way, finish 37-45, miss the playoffs, and get around the #10 pick.

      Ay-yep.

    163. You guys are so damn cynical its insane. How about hoping for a better tomorrow through the power of The Tank?

    164. In any case, shit hit the fan and the team became woefully inept & dysfunctional once Guitar Jimmy ran JVG off.

      Ummmm…. JVG ran himself off once he took a good look at our declining roster and he knew his value at the time was high. He quit essentially.

    165. Of course JVG was a big advocate in opposing a retooling of our roster into a younger, more athletic group. So it was ironically shady that he bailed on us the moment the getting was good.

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