Knicks Morning News (2016.06.18)

  • [New York Times] C.C. Sabathia May Be Friends With LeBron James, but His Heart Remains in the Golden State (Sat, 18 Jun 2016 01:59:44 GMT)

    Sabathia, the owner of a miserly 0.86 E.R.A since May 4, was pulling for the Warriors on Thursday even as he delivered another sterling performance.

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    Mike Kurylo is the founder and editor of KnickerBlogger.net. His book on the 2012 Knicks, "We’ll Always Have Linsanity," is on sale now. Follow him on twitter (@KnickerBlogger).

    64 thoughts to “Knicks Morning News (2016.06.18)”

    1. RE: D Rose rumors:
      I’m a little behind on this 1, but I wanna get this out before I head to the office for a few. If the objective is to get from under Melo’s deal, don’t you have to trade him for Rose? Isn’t he a FA after this season? On top of that, he’s younger than Melo. So if he rediscovers his form, he is now a dynamic perimeter weapon that is closer to KP’s timeline. If he doesn’t, then we’re still rebuilding around KP with more cash to spend. I’d be all for that move. Either way, I think it would be a brilliant trade. Low risk, high reward.

    2. Wait..I just saw that the cap is now projected to be 94 mil. It may end up being a better offseason for our Knicks that we all first thought.

    3. As BC is always quick to point out, Melo is not waiving his NTC. My guess is that the only chance he would is to join a certain contender, which Chicago is not. That’s why I proposed the Cavs-Celts-Knicks 3-way deal. The Celts have been drooling over Love for years (who knows why, he sux!) and Cleveland would virtually guarantee Melo at least a couple of trips to the Finals on Lebron’s coattails. Melo is not getting to the finals in his late prime without a trade unless the Knicks pull a miracle blockbuster trade/FA coup for the likes of Durant, which simply ain’t happening. Sorry reub et. al. but that’s factorial.

    4. I personally heard KD’s mother say that she liked the Knicks in general and Melo in particular. And KD loves his good friend Rose. These are unmitigated facts. So there!

    5. I really don’t understand why anyone would possibly consider trading Melo for Rose (assuming Melo waives his NTC, which he won’t) If we can get Melo to agree to a trade, we need to get back real assets (healthy players, draft picks), not damaged goods and 2017 cap space.

      That 3 way deal with Boston and Cleveland works for me, with the added bonus that Boston ain’t winning anything with Kevin Love as their centerpiece.

    6. so….Melo was 31% of our salary last year. This year, he’s 26% of the cap. Is that really that bad?

    7. so….Melo was 31% of our salary last year. This year, he’s 26% of the cap. Is that really that bad?

      Definitely not with the unexpected 94 mil cap. I think the real problem is that Phil has a better chance to ink Durant now, but he and Melo play the same position. IMO, that’s not something that should give any team pause when it comes to chasing Durant. It can be worked out one way or the other.

    8. I don’t like the three way deal at all, we are getting screwed in that deal. Melo is the best player in the deal.

      Why do people insist on putting Melos name in trades, Knicks fans lack loyalty

    9. The Celts have been drooling over Love for years (who knows why, he sux!)

      Boston loves guys with a blue collar work ethic. Players who aren’t flashy, and don’t care about the bling bling and the hip hop.

    10. I don’t like the three way deal at all, we are getting screwed in that deal. Melo is the best player in the deal.

      Why do people insist on putting Melos name in trades, Knicks fans lack loyalty

      LOL..it does seem like that, doesn’t it? Personally, I still love Chris Childs (for the Kobe punch), Gerald Wilkins, Charlie Ward, Spree, H20, Hubert freaking Davis, Starks, Mark Jackson, Strickland, Ewing (of course), Oakley, Ant Mason, Derek Harper, Kiki, Lin, STAT, and several others including Melo(even JJ, Novak, and Balkman a little lol). And I still HATE REGGIE MILLER WITH A PASSION! lol..so yea..loyal to a fault with NYK, maybe even delusional(yikes!). But..when you’ve got a young, bright light like KP to build around- it’s kinda easy to put Melo’s name in the trade ring for the betterment of the team. Obviously, if we were still a playoff team at present, I don’t think many folks would be talking about possibly trading Melo.

    11. I’m gonna re-propose the 3 team trade from last thread:

      NYK SENDS: Robin Lopez and Jose Calderon
      NYK RECEIVES: Derrick Rose, Kyle Korver, Thabo Sefalosha, and CHI 2016 1st round pick.

      ATL SENDS: Jeff Teague, Kyle Korver, and Thabo Sefalosha
      ATL RECEIVES: Taj Gibson, Tony Snell and Jose Calderon

      CHI SENDS: Derrick Rose, Tony Snell, Taj Gibson, 2016 1st round pick
      CHI RECEIVES: Jeff Teague and Robin Lopez

      This is a great trade for Chicago, IMO. They get back two starters and some cap space to bolster their roster as they’re giving up the most salary. This makes them a 50+ win team depending on what they do in free agency. For Atlanta, they basically swap expiring deals to land one of the league’s best front courts in Millsap, Horford, and Gibson for a year, a young player in Snell, and they get a good back up for Schröder. We do it because we get to punt our cap space a season while keeping $20+ million to grab KD or Whiteside and then we get the 14th pick in the draft this Thursday.

      I’d do this deal if I were the Knicks or Bulls in an instant. It would be harder to do this trade for Atlanta, I think. Taj Gibson for Teague is fair and it gives Millsap a great back up for a season, and the trade allows for Schröder to be the starter without controversy. Picking up Tony Snell is a nice added plus since he’s young and can still be a player in this league.

    12. Boom. To make it more valuable for the Hawks, they move up to 14 and we take their 21st overall pick and select DeAndre Bembry with it. So they would essentially be using Teague to move up 7 spots in the draft while getting back Taj Gibson, Jose Calderon, and Tony Snell. I think that officially makes it a good trade for everybody involved.

      Being a GM ain’t too difficult.

    13. ATL says no. If they can’t do better for Teague, they may as well keep him. (Also– their plans kind of hinge on Harford, who’s destiny won’t be decided until after the draft).

      What if ATL lands Rose and NY lands Teague though? Teague is better, but less famous– maybe it’s time to be on the right side of wrong for a change?

    14. I I see your point toots but why ‘switch horses in mid stream ‘?

      It takes many good players to build a team and melo is a good player we need more good players. The idea of ‘dumping melo’ is not realistic for one but also unproductive towards building a team. Which is why I see the logic in going for rose because he is a good player who fills a major need for us going forward and I think Phil will use all his powers of mind control to get a deal done.

      Question, are afflalo and Williams still in the roster, can they be used as trading chips even though they have opt out clauses?

    15. Totes, going with the idea that Durant and Melo were on the team together, I would play a different style of game. Durant and Melo would be the wings with Porzingis and Lopez in the block. Now all you need is someone to distribute the ball.

      As for Rose, everything I’m reading about getting Rose is that the Bulls would get a player (like Lopez) and a pick. If that’s the case, screw it. Rose is too big a risk. I would rather hoard picks now and sign FA’s. There are other injury risks out there like Brandon Jennings. Why pay (in the form of talent) to get Rose? SMH

    16. Rose hasn’t had a good season in five fucking years and is hugely overpaid. The last time he wasn’t terrible or hurt was 2011. The thought he has any value on that contract is proof that some sports media and some front offices have no idea how to value players.

    17. Yeah no way I do any trade with Chicago that means I give up anything more valuable than Robin Lopez. I’m already willing to move Lopez for Rose because of the amount of front court talent on the market this free agency. But Lopez and a pick? Please find some rocks and kick them.

      And personally I don’t think Teague’s value is very high right now. He’s an expiring contract who lost his job to a point guard who isn’t very good (great per minute stats, but the 4 TOV/36 and the bad scoring efficiency are very important). Why would Philly take a chance on a guy that can leave next summer? Same for Utah or Milwaukee. I think Taj Gibson, Jose Calderon, Tony Snell, and the right to move up 7 slots in the draft is fair enough a haul for Teague, Korver, and Sefalosha.

    18. I also think I should make it clear that I really like the Rose 3 team trade I proposed because of the prospect of adding guys like Korver, Sefalosha, Whiteside (I will be holding out hope he comes here until he signs elsewhere), the 21st pick, and the salary cap punt that comes with the Rose, Korver, and Sefalosha contracts.

    19. @15 mase..
      Toots??? How’d you know I specialize in Dutch Ovens??? hahahahahahaaha

    20. The Bulls can have a player and a pick back for Rose, if that player is Jose Calderon and/or Kyle O’Quinn, and the pick is a top-29 protected 2017 first. If adding Derrick Rose makes the Knicks the best team in the NBA, I’m cool with handing over a pick.

      The problem with the 3 team trade involving the Hawks is that we trade our only veteran on a value contract (Lopez) for a PG who may be totally washed up, wings who well end next season 36 and 32, respectively, and not enough cap space to offer a max to Hassan Whiteside, who isn’t coming here anyway.

    21. I can’t believe there is talk about the Knicks trading for Derrick Rose, and that there are people on Knickerblogger who think it’s a good idea. Trading for Derrick Rose would be the stupidest, and thus Knicksiest thing this franchise could possibly do. Trading something of value for Derrick Rose would truly make me think Isiah Thomas is pulling the strings.

      Rose has played 4,000 minutes since missing a year with his injury and has a .482 TS% in that span. He has amassed a .017 WS48 over the last three seasons. He has the explosiveness of a potato, can’t get to the line any more and can’t shoot from the perimeter to save his life. He is a broken down, hollowed-out husk of a player– a guy who relied on his quickness and athleticism and who now has neither. Trading for him would be Bargnani-level stupid, and I’m not even exaggerating. He would make the team worse by taking minutes from a 35-year old Jose Calderon.

      If you can get assets along with him, then great. If you have to GIVE UP something of value to acquire this living, breathing salary cap void, and he is being acquired because somebody thinks he will help the Knicks win basketball games, then stupid fucking people are running the team, full stop, 100%. Our guards suck– you don’t solve the problem of sucky guards by acquiring a guy who hasn’t played well since 2011.

    22. In any case, yes..Melo, warts and all, is a very good player. But on the flipside of that, he is 32 and dealing with injuries. So KP’s presence makes a nice window for a Melo trade to be made. Especially when he has embraced passing more and shown an ability to trust his teammates. 6 in one, half dozen in the other, I guess

    23. No, he’s not a very good player. He’s a player who takes and misses a lot of shots. It’s 2016 and we’re still pretending like he’s a franchise player. He’s not. He’s the centerpiece of a bunch of shitty Knicks teams who only won when he had an All-NBA center on the team. Get over it. It’s done.

    24. Korver, Sefalosha, Rose’s clout with other NBA players, a 1st round pick, and cap space next year bros. Rose may even help us underachieve our way to a top 10 pick. That’s what I’m willing to give up for Robin Lopez. And I think we currently have something like an expected $36 million in cap space coming up. If we take on Rose, Sefalosha, the 21st pick (DeAndre Bembry!) and Korver (around $31M in total commitments) while giving up Calderon and Lopez (about $21M in total commitments), that leaves us around $25M to go and sign Hassan Whiteside with, and I don’t think he’s been in the league long enough to command that type of money. I could totally see Hassan Whiteside’s wanting to join Rose, Korver/Bembry/Sefalosha, Melo, and Porzingis in a starting five over whatever LAL is trying to put together and Miami.

      That’s all I’m saying. If trading for Lopez for Rose gets me a salary cap punt, Hassan Whiteside/Kevin Durant, a 2016 first round pick, and the ability to turn Calderon into Sefalosha and Korver, I will do it without question. That’s a lot of value. I am only willing to give up Calderon and Lopez, and only because I believe it makes us players for Whiteside or Durant.

    25. He’s a player who takes and misses a lot of shots.

      That’s practically every NBA player except for Steph Curry lol.

    26. That’s practically every NBA player except for Steph Curry lol.

      And practically every player does not have a mega-max contract with a no-trade clause. He’s not a great player but he’s paid like one. He’s good and he will never sniff a championship unless he is turned into another Chris Bosh, i.e. the 4th-best player on a Finals team.

    27. Rose has been a shell of himself, true. But he’s what? 27? So theoretically, he still has a decent chance to get healthy and regain his form. On that chance alone, you probably make that deal if it involves Melo if you’re Phil because of Rose’s age, shorter contract, and position. If he recovers, then you have a good to great PG as opposed to a great-but-fading-because-of-injuries and age-scoring forward. If he doesn’t recover, then we still have Grant and Wroten, and more cap space to chase Westbrook with. To me, it’s a win-win, given that we’re not expected to come close to contention this season anyway.

    28. I’m down with Rose if it means the Bulls include an asset to get the Knicks to take him off their hands. But if they’re looking for assets, that’s just crazy. Rose is clearly a problem for the Bulls. The notion that they be given an asset to help them with their problems is absurd. That said, Rose is famous, so there probably will be a team who will give the Bulls something for him. That team should not be the Knicks.

    29. And practically every player does not have a mega-max contract with a no-trade clause. He’s not a great player but he’s paid like one. He’s good and he will never sniff a championship unless he is turned into another Chris Bosh, i.e. the 4th-best player on a Finals team.

      Honestly, at this point in his career, I agree. As much as I appreciate his once-otherworldly scoring ability- the one part of his game many thought would age well, I’m with you on that sentiment Jowles. The best part of his game seems to be getting less and less effective, most likely due to injury. Alot of miles on him pre-Knicks, and he’s had to carry a heavier load as a Knick.

    30. Rose has been a shell of himself, true. But he’s what? 27? So theoretically, he still has a decent chance to get healthy and regain his form.

      Rose had his knee surgery in 2012. That is four years ago. He has clearly never been the same since, and as an added bonus, he hurt the OTHER knee in 2013. He had season-ending surgery on his “good” knee in 2013 and then had surgery on the “good” knee AGAIN in 2014.

      He’s not going to “regain his form.” He’s finished. Kaput. Dunzo.

    31. The Knicks should not and will not send anything of value should they deal for Rose. Chicago needs to send a sweetener or two to get rid of him a year early.

      Taking on Rose’s salary would also probably be a sign that Phil has whiffed on all of the major free agents that he was interested in. Even in that case, only take him on if they send a pick or two.

      Taking him would reduce the Knicks from about $32 million in space (assuming Afflalo and DW opt out) to about $11. With possibly $1m of that going to Hernangomez, that leaves $10m. So, then look for 3rd tier wings.

    32. He’s not going to “regain his form.” He’s finished. Kaput. Dunzo.

      Most likely, unfortunately. Sucks that age doesn’t seem to be on his side. But is a 32 year old Melo with a knee and millions of NBA miles still that much better than a 27 year old Rose with bad knees and a shorter deal? Let me rephrase..will Melo in his current state be more valuable to the Knicks than Rose right now? We definitely can’t add a damaged Rose to a damaged Melo and expect a decent return. Keep in mind that Phil can sell Chicago on how much “healthier & effective” Melo is than Rose and also get picks- most likely 1sts- in return.

    33. Say what you want, but I’d rather pay The Basketball Player Formerly Known as Derrick Rose $21.9M for a year than give Mike Conley $100M over four years.

      You know what? This trade probably won’t happen anyway. The Knicks won’t give up assets and neither will the Bulls.

    34. Say what you want, but I’d rather pay The Basketball Player Formerly Known as Derrick Rose $21.9M for a year than give Mike Conley $100M over four years.

      I’m with you, but the Bulls should give a lot of stuff to get anyone to take on that contract. Rose is really, really bad. Even if he does a sudden turnaround, the best-case scenario is he develops a reliable outside shot (which he’s never had) and becomes a decent end-of-bench player on a vet’s minimum. $21.9M for Rose might be the worst value in the NBA now that Kobe’s gone.

    35. I don’t think anybody posting on this website would disagree with the fact that Derrick Rose is all time trash at this point. I will never argue that he is redeemable if put in the right system, that he still does valuable things, or any of that dumb stuff that I did when Bargnani got here. That’s crazy and has been proven crazy many times on this website. But when you consider that Derrick Rose could possibly attract the right free agent (in ways that Conley and Rondo couldn’t) if we move enough money in the deal and that we could possibly get something valuable from Chicago in any Derrick Rose trade, then a trade for him starts to make sense. If we move RoLo and Calderon in a D Rose trade and we’re able to land Durant or Whiteside, then the trade is worth it no matter if we get back a 1st round pick or not. If we get back a 2016 1st round pick for Derrick Rose or the right to swap picks with Chicago in a later year, the trade is worth it whether or not we land Durant or Whiteside.

    36. Trading in hopes of clearing cap space has been proven to be fools gold. Particularly since the cap is increasing, Every team has more cap space. Planning to have some free cap space is useful as it gives the team flexibility in trades and obviously free agency. Clearing every good player off the books to have huge cap space in hopes of hitting that home run signing very rarely works. Trading for Rose seems pretty idiotic to me as he is always hurt, doesn’t want to play hurt, skills have been in decline, and has a huge contract. No thank you unless they can get him for nothing. Trading Melo for him sounds like an idea cooked up by Dolan and Isiah in the executive washroom – imbecilic.

    37. Why are we so certain that Derrick Rose would be attractive for FA’s to come play with? I mean, I don’t personally know the man but Durant doesn’t strike me as a moron.

    38. If Chicago wants to take Calderon and KOQ back for Rose after we have a starting 2 locked up I could talk myself in to the low risk nature of the move with the upside potentially being a return to league average levels for Rose. Really though we should be focused on adding wings to this roster.

    39. Salaries for KOQ and Calderon aren’t close enough to Rose’s to do a swap. You need to include Lopez or just absorb him straight into the cap

    40. Salaries for KOQ and Calderon aren’t close enough to Rose’s to do a swap. You need to include Lopez or just absorb him straight into the cap

      We’d be taking on the extra salary in to our cap space and Chicago could do the deal because their salary goes lower.

      Including Lopez for Rose’s corpse isn’t even on the table.

    41. I think we need to see if Horny can get more consistent play out of O’Quinn before we look to move him-if he’s just a good backup he’s good value on his deal.

    42. We would have to gain an asset to take Rose and not give one (no Rolo). If he can somehow bring us KD it would be worth it even if he’s a paperweight. Plus being that it’s his contract year and that Horny works well with guards and he’ll be playing with his bff Durant in a new environment we might just get something good out of him. If not then play Grant and use him as a paperweight.

    43. If you want to move Lopez why do it with Rose? Why not at least get a future pick/players for him down the road in a separate trade?

    44. There’s a tweet somewhere that Anthony Bennett has a commitment for next season. He only, I believe, worked out with the Knicks and the Nets. Still only 23 years old and has improved his body tremendously.

    45. I can’t believe so many posters are suggesting trading a good player (Lopez) for a bad player (Rose). The biggest reason suggested seems to be to get cap space in 2017, but we already have enough cap space for one high profile signing, and luring one high profile free agent here is hard enough. Why do we need enough space for two signings? Even if we wanted more cap space, I still don’t want Rose. If we’re going to hire guys with bad stats, let it be young, inexpensive ones like Wroten, not the Derrick Roses of the world.

    46. I still prefer just maxing Evan Fournier for 21 million. We’d be a very talented young team with money left for another max next year:

      Grant
      Fournier
      KP
      Rolo
      Melo

    47. I’d be happy with getting Fournier. I’d even be happy to get Conley. They’re good players and because of the rising cap, we won’t be overpaying either of the a few years from now.

    48. Fournier would cost 5 million less than Conley and allow us to develop Grant. I’d be happy with Batum at that price too. We’d have money left over for other players too.

    49. I’m curious — where in the world did this crazy idea that Rose might be able to attract other free agents come from? My guess is that most players — even those who say good things about him — realize what we all realize — he is awful.

    50. Haha how desperate can this fanbase get

      “CARMELO AND DERRICK ROSE WILL ATTRACT THE PRIMO FREE AGENTS GUISE HAHA HE IS SUPERSTAR HAHA”

    51. Don’t hurt yourself laughing because this team is going to become good even if it’s over your dead body! It’s already starting to happen.

    52. The only thing Derrick Rose would attract would be flies, sadly. I have yet to see any evidence that Melo can attract anyone of value, either. Maybe Afflalo was a buddy of sorts, but that’s over.

      KP might help a bit with Hernangomez.

      Someone please tell me that Batum and Fournier are big fans of Melo!
      :-)

    53. I have yet to see any evidence that Melo can attract anyone of value, either.

      Lest we forget NBA Finals hero J.R. “Culture Change” Smith?

    54. Let’s just pray GS wins tomorrow so LeBron might decide to put his GM hat back on and demand Melo…………

    55. I’m curious — where in the world did this crazy idea that Rose might be able to attract other free agents come from? My guess is that most players — even those who say good things about him — realize what we all realize — he is awful.

      I don’t think Rose is a draw, but I don’t think most players are “draws.” Only the very best players in the NBA are ever really draws. You know, the MVP-level guys like Lebron, Durant and, Curry. And even there, it is not like OKC has signed a single prominent outside free agent since Durant became a star (they really haven’t had the cap space to do so, but still). That being said, I think you’d be surprised by how many players still think very highly of Rose. Melo even this past season said some very nice things about how good Rose was.

    56. Lest we forget NBA Finals hero J.R. “Culture Change” Smith?

      Even there, the Knicks had the most money to offer than any team (the only team that could have offered him more was Minnesota, and they never made him an offer). And when he re-signed here, no one else was offering him more.

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