IN the NYP, Legler kinda summed up why I felt the way I did about this KAT-at-C team going into the season, and how predictably things have transpired:

After watching the Knicks get torched Friday night in Cleveland by 37 points, Legler said he expected Tom Thibodeau’s team to show “they had enough” and that “they would come out and draw a line in the sand” against the Celtics.

“And then they were down by 20 in the first quarter,” added Legler, who served as an analyst for Sunday’s game for ABC. “I know they made it a game briefly in the second half, but what we are seeing is that these three teams are so hard to guard, and the Knicks are just not an elite defensive team.

“So when you throw an average defensive team at any of those three teams when they’re playing with sharp focus — which I don’t know if Boston was doing earlier in the year, but they definitely are now — you can get some of these margins where these buzzsaw games take place and you can’t slow it down.

“And then the question becomes, what do you do about it?” Legler continued. “Well, it’s difficult because I think a lot of it is personnel-based.”

Both analysts believe the Knicks will be helped by the pending return of center Mitchell Robinson from injury for the first time since undergoing ankle surgery last May, although Legler stressed that “it’s not realistic” to expect the injury-prone 7-footer “to have a major impact right away.”

Still, Legler also noted that Towns “is totally being picked on” by opposing teams in ball-screen actions away from the basket.

“These teams in particular will just destroy you in that action. That’s all Boston runs,” Legler said. “The difference is they have five guys who all can run it at a high level and all of their guys can really shoot.

“So they force the Knicks’ other defenders into rotation and just count on the fact that it’s going to be overwhelming for them. In these matchups, it has been.”

It wouldn’t surprise me if guys like Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart are frustrated with this very stark reality. KAT’s horrific play at C makes the entire defense fall apart and just causes guys to scramble to cover for him. If you watch the highlight reel of the C’s scoring plays, time after time KAT was in the center (npi) of the actions they run.

Maybe he’s not Enes Freedom bad, but Enes Freedom didn’t cost $50+M AAV either.

Uh, I picked Cleveland to finish second last year.

And I picked them to finish 2nd this year. Strat bet on them to win the title.

It seems common these days for people to think “the whole world” thinks something when really it’s just them and their echo chamber.

KAT’s horrific play at C makes the entire defense fall apart and just causes guys to scramble to cover for him.

What, Mikal Bridges, OG Anunoby, and Josh Hart can’t rotate now? Every defense in the NBA is put into rotation routinely, but in NY the rotations are made impossible because of the 5?

Sorry, not adding up.

The claim appears to be that the wings (a) have to go off-man (*) to cover for the 5 and (b) they’re accomplished at that and deserve credit … but at the same time (c) when they go off-man in normal, stock NBA rotations they are not accomplished at that, but (d) that’s someone else’s fault.

Does not compute. No sale.

In terms of drop coverage with KAT, they (a) shouldn’t be playing it anywhere near as much, but (b) the job of perimeter defenders is to not let their man get the head of steam they routinely get before getting to KAT. They’re failing badly at this job.

KAT played in the top defense in the association last year.

(*) Query: Are these off-man movements they’re supposedly doing rogue and off-grid? Or are they in Thibs’s game plan? If they’re in Thibs’s game plan, he should take them out because they’re not working. (Of course, this question is somewhat rhetorical, inasmuch as these rogue, covering off-man movements either (1) don’t happen that much; or (2) are things they aren’t supposed to be doing or are in themselves poor defense.

E, are you coming to these conclusions after hours of film analysis or are you just doing the bit again?

Film analysis and logic.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but nothing about the Legler/Z-Man theory adds up.

The fact of the matter is that they’re playing very poor perimeter defense. That’s not the 5, it’s the guys on the perimeter. I see no need to go to some theory premised on illusory secondary and tertiary effects when the primary evidence is directly in front of our eyes.

With that said, a good part of this is likely scheme. The fact that Thibs likes his guys to pack in is oft-noted and essentially established fact at this point. It’s been mentioned dozens if not hundreds of times on KB since 2020. So what some people are interpreting as “scrambling” by the wings to help the 5 is in fact, instead, “Thibs’s defense.” He needs to change it, or he needs to go. The league has progressed beyond his schemes.

With that said, Mikal Bridges is a poor defender in his own right, so really they’re dealing with three poor/meh defenders, not just two. That puts a ceiling on how good the defense can be. At this point, if I’m Thibs, I’m seriously thinking about starting Deuce.

Last I checked, Minny’s #1 defense had a 4x DPoY at the 5. Was that KAT?

Who cares? All that means is that if you have good defenders, your defense will tend to be good. What does that tell you, in turn, about the Knick defense and defenders?

There’s nothing magical about the 5 on defense and nothing magical about “rim protection.” That’s Thibs talking.

“That’s just E talking”

Fify

The Knicks are fifth best in the association at shooting percentage allowed from 0-3 feet. But teams are getting to that spot the third most in the league against the Knicks. And we all know the macabre numbers on the perimeter against the Knicks.

Teams get to the rim too easily against the Knicks and teams fill it up from downtown too easily against the Knicks.

This is not a rim issue or a “rim protection” issue. This is a perimeter issue.

In terms of the getting to the rim issue, KAT contributes to that because he’s poor at stopping guys from getting to the rim on him when he picks them up in the 15-ish foot range on the drop coverage Thibs insists on playing. But the other guys on the team are also doing a poor job of letting guys get into the paint and to the rim.

It’s just way too easy for teams to get to their spots on the floor against the Knicks, wherever those spots may be on any particular possession. That doesn’t vary much by defender although pretty clearly OG is the best defender in the starting lineup.

Oddly, I tend to favor E’s opinion here. Obviously KAT is miscast as the last line of defense, but I think 1. Brunson getting picked on and 2. Thibs’ rigid system are also very much to blame. We should clearly be playing some zone with this undersized group. And yes our wings aren’t playing up to snuff, but Thibs is partly behind that IMO.

Winning wo sweating on D is sweet and as it seems addictive.
Unfortunately this ain’t happening against the Top teams.

Your film analysis should be telling you that they’re getting to the rim so often because after the ball defender gets screened by KAT’s man KAT goes too deep into drop and lets the ball man get too close and doesn’t give the wing defender time to recover.

It seems common these days for people to think “the whole world” thinks something when really it’s just them and their echo chamber.

Most accurate thing I have read in quite a while, kudos… applicable in many areas.

I don’t think changing the coach is going to matter all that much. Not to say he is doing a great job or couldn’t make changes, but I think it’s likely to end up a marginal difference.

I don’t think OG and Mikal and Hart and Deuce’s perimeter defense is the issue. I have watched a lot of bad perimeter defense in my time. These guys are all ok.

I am in the Towns can’t play 5 camp. Strongly. I just don’t think you can have a good defense when he is your primary interior defender. He’s simply too slow and, for whatever reason, bad. He’s like a Bargnani out there almost. He gets rebounds and contests some shots here and there, but for the most part he is a glorified cardboard cutout.

I love him on offense. I’d love him at the 4 next to a legit defensive center. I love the way he carries himself and that he is local and how hard he plays on offense. But I don’t know if I have ever seen anyone rotate to the corner slower than him.

I think the Knicks need OG and Mikal on the ball more. Any time they get isolated on the ball handler without any screens set the defense is fine.

It’s not a coincidence the biggest defensive plays at the end of games has been made by Mikal when it’s just him one on one. I’m not just talking about his blocks, his defense on the final play against Atlanta when Young couldn’t get by him and had to throw up a floater off the side of the backboard. Against Chicago there was a similar play when White tried to drive on him and threw up a floater that hit only backboard.

If all teams did was ISO on the perimeter defenders the Knicks defense would be great but unfortunately that rarely happens.

I agree with Owen’s take. I also feel very strongly that I’d prefer to have to find a trade for Towns in this economy than a trade for Julius to push up to God tier.

Thibs should mix it up every once in a while tho. Trench warfare without a good guy trench is hard to enjoy.

Sure, it’s true that KAT is bad at drop coverage. It’s also true that it’s a bad idea to build a defense around a guy who is bad at drop coverage. It’s like trying to run SSOL with Toney Douglas as the point guard.

Part of coaching is putting guys in position to succeed. If KAT is getting endlessly roasted as the backbone of a drop coverage scheme, maybe you need to come up with some ways to mitigate that. Namely, don’t play so much drop.
Don’t build your defense around rim protection that doesn’t exist. Try something other than the one dogmatic way you insist on coaching.

The best coaches, guys like Pat Riley, coach to the personnel rather than doing square peg round hole. We haven’t had the personnel to run a defensive scheme built around a C playing drop coverage. Doesn’t matter. We’re gonna do it anyway.

Perhaps, in some small but well guarded place in Thibs thinking, is the true inkling that this team cannot succeed with KAT at the five. And the long game on the season was to build the team for the very moment when that 5, our only “possible” value addition roster-wise would jump into the building and land softly on bionic ankles right under the basket, quietly nudging KAT off to run around the perimeter like a moose on mescaline chasing whatever shades of defense his brain can muster as it considers its next ridiculous chandelier swinging offensive move. There’s no change to be had because, and Thibs has done shit like this if I recall, this is the defense the team will play with Mitch.

like a moose on mescaline

Made me look silly in public with that one, Meeks

I eagerly await Towns and Country. If that doesn’t fix the problem (after maybe three weeks to get integrated), then I’ll worry about our ceiling and next moves.

All that means is that if you have good defenders, your defense will tend to be good. What does that tell you, in turn, about the Knick defense and defenders?

I think it tells us you can have a great defense with KAT, but not with KAT, Brunson, and Bridges.

Josh Hart is a good, versatile, and smart defender, but he’s also limited. OG is great but one wing can’t cover for all this weakness.

It’s a bad mix, and it’s not “a tweak or two” away from being fixed.

I eagerly await Towns and Country.

Does anyone else get the feeling Mitch is just gonna be the backup center? I feel like that is what the organization treated him as when he was on the block for spare parts. But more importantly I have a really hard time seeing Bridges or Hart getting their roles reduced.

Once we stop playing the Celtics and Cavs, we will reassert ourselves as the King of the Mezz. And that is going to be just fine for Thibs, who will think that next time we can just beat the Celtics doing the same thing with better effort.

What’s going to be the impetus to drive change if we’re winning?

One of the most tiresome and largely inaccurate narratives is that Towns is getting cooked because he’s always in drop. There’s a reason that he’s often, but not always exclusively, in drop. If he pushes out onto the perimeter, it will be just another kind of disaster. He will get blown by in isolation And now your biggest guy in the paint is OG at best and often Brunson, Bridges, or Hart, so even if Towns is not abused (don’t bet on it) and the result is a miss, you now have second opportunities galore. Like the one that Kornet tipped out to Hauser for an easy 3.

There’s nothing magical about the 5 on defense and nothing magical about “rim protection.” That’s Thibs talking.

Seriously, can we just ignore E now? This is one of the dumbest things ever said here.

No, it’s not, ThisChicanery. Draymond Green is no one’s definition of a rim-protecting 5 at 6’6″, 230 lbs, and the Warriors built an all time great defense around him. Bam Adebayo is a 6’9″ power forward who averages less than 1 block per game and the Heat have built great defenses around him. The Nuggets had a defense that performed great in the postseason that was built around Aaron Gordon.

There are so many examples of teams eschewing the rim protecting 5 and building great defenses that it’s actually laughable you think the comment is stupid.

Ok take out “rim protecting” and substitute “good interior defending”. Same same.

You can’t have a good defense without one really good interior/big man defender

It’s a bad mix, and it’s not “a tweak or two” away from being fixed.

If the “tweak” is Mitch being fully integrated and being able to play 25 minutes a game at the level we know he’s been capable of playing, I think that is a rather significant tweak. Enough to beat the big three? Probably not but that’s why we play the games!

@hubert

No one mentioned shot blocking and I never said that an elite defensive 5 was a prerequisite to an elite defense, just that it’s stupid to say there’s no link between the two. And your evidence that an elite defensive 5 isn’t needed for an elite defense is to name two teams that have elite defensive 5s but who aren’t shot blockers?

No, it’s not, ThisChicanery. Draymond Green is no one’s definition of a rim-protecting 5 at 6’6″, 230 lbs, and the Warriors built an all time great defense around him.

hubert wtf. draymond green is one of the best rim protectors in nba history. his unparalleled predilection for dramatically repositioning himself, contorting his entire essence and contesting something that you thought was surely an unassailable layup is something you of all people should surely recognize and appreciate. saying he’s not a rim protector because inches is one of the worst basketball things i’ve ever read and absolutely irrelevant in all other contexts as my wife will confirm.

kat has played 11,432 minutes in the nba as a center without a partner who you might call a plus rim protector. in those minutes his team’s defensive rating has been 115.38 (playoffs 117.9). the average defensive rating in the nba over that period has been 111.76. the worst defensive team over that period had a defensive rating of 114.84. if you don’t understand that having KAT without a rim protector is a massive first order hurdle to having a good defense that’s great news, because the world will forever be full of fantastic mysteries for you.

kat has played 11,432 minutes in the nba as a center without a partner who you might call a plus rim protector. in those minutes his team’s defensive rating has been 115.38 (playoffs 117.9). the average defensive rating in the nba over that period has been 111.76. the worst defensive team over that period had a defensive rating of 114.84. if you don’t understand that having KAT without a rim protector is a massive first order hurdle to having a good defense that’s great news, because the world will forever be full of fantastic mysteries for you.

Fucking thank you.

PT with the post of the season.

Pacino and Keanu squaring off.

In their 4 championship seasons, Draymond Green played the following % of time at the C position in the playoffs: 30,32,29,32. Those %s were much lower in the regular season (career 14%).

Jokic is miles better than KAT on D and on O for that matter. The smallest guy in that lineup was 6’4”. Their D rating was 15th. If you swapped out Jokic for KAT on that team, they are gone long before the finals.

Anyway, this is not about KATs inability to protect the rim. He doesn’t protect anything, except iso vs. classic bigs. Draymond would probably not take kindly to his many lapses. Jimmy sure didn’t.

Pacino and Reeves already did that movie almost 30 years ago.

his unparalleled predilection for dramatically repositioning himself, contorting his entire essence and contesting something that you thought was surely an unassailable layup is something you of all people should surely recognize and appreciate

Dude, you’re making my point (and E’s as well).

The Thibs approach to defense is to leave Andrew Bogut in because he blocks shots.

You’re suggesting that Thibs would not build a defense around Draymond?

I would take Kevon Looney over Towns as a defender.

if you don’t understand that having KAT without a rim protector is a massive first order hurdle to having a good defense

I’m pretty sure I’ve demonstrated I understand this when I said it 5,000 times. I even gave it a cute little nickname: “our thermal exhaust port.”

Dude, you’re making my point (and E’s as well).

The Thibs approach to defense is to leave Andrew Bogut in because he blocks shots.

Can you explain what you think E’s point was, because it wasn’t about shot blocking.

And as much as I dislike Thibs this is obviously not true. Joakim Noah wasn’t a great shot blocker in Chicago, even though he was an elite defender, and he didn’t have one while in Minnesota either. And KAT’s not a shot blocker and he’s not playing over some elite defensive 5 that doesn’t block shots.

You’re suggesting that Thibs would not build a defense around Draymond?

No, I don’t think Thibs would have been the revolutionary thinker who in 2015 started playing defense with 5 guys under 6’8″.

For evidence, I submit that he has OG Anunoby on his team right now, and his defense is built around KAT.

So Thibs should bench KAT and play OG at the 5?

So Thibs should bench KAT and play OG at the 5?

Flagrant foul on the play. Hubert gets two free throws and the ball.

Can you explain what you think E’s point was, because it wasn’t about shot blocking.

It seemed pretty clear to me it was about shot blocking and traditional deterrents from driving. That’s why rim protection was in quotes.

There’s a difference between:

there’s nothing magical about rim protection

and

there’s nothing magical about “rim protection”

E has told us many, many times that rebounding is part of defense. KAT is averaging almost 14 rebounds per game.

Just sayin’. 🙂

I jokingly suggested to my brother during one game near the beginning of the season that we should just play OG at the 5 and KAT at the 4 on defense. That way you don’t sacrifice the KAT at C/5-out offensive look and maybe get better defense at the anchor position.

That was a joke I made at the beginning of the season, but since then I’ve mind-tricked myself into thinking we should actually just try it–it literally cannot be worse defensively than KAT at the 5. Thibs would never, ever do it though, and his unwillingness to even consider it indicates a major problem with the way he coaches.

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