NY Post: Tom Thibodeau’s Knicks rebuild starts now: ‘A dream come true’

I watched the press conference. Bo, I agree with you. RJ was one of the two players Thibs mentioned by name as promising. I was surprised he was one of those two after his last season. I hope he’s right.

Other notes of mine are, Perry was there as GM along with Rose and Thibs as the three people giving the press conference, which suggests he’s more important in the organization than some here have suggested. I liked Thibs’ answer about changing playing styles in the NBA. He didn’t say what he would do, but he clearly has been studying different teams and how they operate. Rose thanked Dolan for providing the resources to assemble his staff. I agree with him. Dolan is not cheap about trying to make the Knicks good and it’s something to be thankful for, especially in these times when money is short.

The more I hear Thibs talk about basketball the more I like him. He’s very aware of the changes in the game, but he’s not a simpleton trend follower. I want someone that understands the game and knows how to find edges even when they don’t fit the current prevailing “wisdom”. As bad as previous management was and as much as they delayed the rebuild, we are in a good position moving forward if Thibs can develop the younger players and Rose can add the right pieces (which mostly comes down to quality shooters, a stretch PF, and some more play making).

KnickfaninNJ: I watched the press conference. Bo, I agree with you. RJ was one of the two players Thibs mentioned by name as promising. I was surprised he was one of those two after his last season. I hope he’s right.

I’m not sure why so many people here are down on RJ. I agree with Thibs.

Look at Randle. He had back to back years where his TS% was 60%. Last year it was 53.8%. That wasn’t all random or because Randle was suddenly terrible. It was because Randle does his best work inside as a 2nd or 3rd option or coming off the bench. In NY he was the #1 option getting double teamed or driving into a wall of players because there was no space.

We all know RJ has to improve his outside shot to become a star caliber player, but he wasn’t so terrible from outside that we need to panic. At this stage he does his best work inside but was in a terrible situation in NY last year just like Randle. If he can develop from outside a little (he will) and we can create more space for him to operate by adding shooters and either trading Randle or moving him to the bench, he’s going to be a lot more productive. If anything, he was better defensively than we feared and he can also rebound and make plays OK for a wing. He’s underrated right now because the stats can’t account for his teammates, the way he was forced to play, and the terrible situation he and other Knicks were in because they didn’t fit together (because our current GM and former president don’t know anything about basketball).

If we put the right pieces on the court we are going to get a double level improvement from the better players, better fit, and better coaching in combination.

I want someone that understands the game and knows how to find edges even when they don’t fit the current prevailing “wisdom”.

Strat, I think I’d prefer he start with the little-known edge that 3 points > 2 points.

I do have somewhat high hopes for Thib’s potential impact on Mitch as a defensive stud, though. On a more cynical note, the potential narrative of ‘grizzled old coach helps unlock young player’s defensive potential’ might start getting Mitch more of the media attention his play deserves.

I had a dream (nightmare?) the other day where RJ just ended up being Rodney Stuckey. I think he even grew the goatee.

It’s still a little weird to hear the name Rose when talking about the Knicks. My 1st thought isn’t Leon..it’s #25. Is that a form of Knicks Fan PTSD?

The problem with RJ is if he’s not your #1 option, what is he?

He has basically been bred in the mold of these big primary ball handlers like LeBron, Doncic, and Butler, but if that archetype doesn’t become a top-ten player, he has to become a 2nd or 3rd option. Paul George did this easily because he is a terrific outside shooter while guys like Iguodala have become glue guys.

I think RJ could eventually become a glue-guy type since he can already pass/rebound/run the break fairly well, but he still has to put in a lot of work to even get to that ideal. Maybe a guy like LaMelo can take the pressure off RJ to be a #1 option, but he needs to put in a lot of work as well.

I can imagine RJ topping out as a poor man’s smaller version of Lamar Odom. Good at a bunch of things but not great at anything. Acceptable shooter but no one would lose sleep over leaving him open. Surprisingly it may end up being his defense that keeps him in the league – I was pleasantly surprised on that end.

“Maybe a guy like LaMelo can take the pressure off RJ to be a #1 option…”

Repeat on LaMelo: .375 FG%, 250 3PT%

Why bother with LaMelo when we have Frank and Knox as equivalent #1 options?

For all of his flaws, Woodson has always struck me as an honorable, straight-up guy and a highly-valued assistant coach under a bunch of regimes. That stuff is straight Knicks PTSD.

For coaches who wanted him, I totally agree. Larry Brown and Doc Rivers, sure. But when he was placed on D’Antoni’s staff, that wasn’t his role at all, right? That’s the concern. If Thibs was like, “I’d like Woodson as my assistant coach,” it’d be a totally normal hire. Woodson being placed on his staff is the jarring thing.

I think the thing with RJ is the people are more down on him because he looked like a real NBA player from the get go. So people think for some reason his ceiling his lower. Like they take for granted that he played heavy minutes on a shitty team as a 19 year old rookie and more than held his own. And his demeanor/poise is a lot more mature than most 19 year olds. And he’s a “smart” player who didn’t do a lot of dumb shit on the court.

So we saw this game after game and took all of those positives for granted. But even though he was NBA ready body wise, that doesn’t mean as a 19 year old rookie he won’t get bigger or stronger, get better at finishing, etc.

Shooting is important, obviously, and he has a lot of work to do in that area. But the thing that gives me hope about RJ is that shooting is literally the only thing he really needs to work on to become a good NBA player. I’m not saying he doesn’t need to improve in other areas of the game cause he does, but shooting is the glaring weakness he needs to overcome but unlike a lot of other rookies, he doesn’t have 4 or 5 glaring weaknesses, he has one. He just has to shoot free throws all day and work on the 3 pointer and I believe he will put in that work because he seems determined and hard working.

I know that was a bunch of eye testy stuff but that’s what I think of RJ. He isn’t Zion or JA, but I think he can be a starter in a contending team.

I’m also not buying the conspiracy theories about Woodson being insisted on by Dolan as a spy or a lying-in-wait replacement for Thibs. For all of his flaws, Woodson has always struck me as an honorable, straight-up guy and a highly-valued assistant coach under a bunch of regimes.

Dolan ALWAYS has eyes and ears in the organization that tell him what is going on behind the scenes. It used to be Mills, but there’s every reason to think it was Woodson when Walsh and D’Antoni were in charge. It was Woodson that had a great relationship with Melo (probably better than any coach in his career). It was Melo that made a big stink about Lin, that refused to play the way MDA wanted to, and that eventually drove MDA out so Woodson could be come head coach just like Melo wanted.

Is that proof the same thing is going to happen this time. Absolutely not. But if you are a coach you need people loyal to YOU reporting to you. That goes double if Rose is crazy enough to bring Melo back.

If management is insisting on more diversity on the bench, if I was Thibs, Woodson would not be my choice and not because of my opinion of him as a coach, but because I think he plotted with Melo to take over and because Doc Rivers dumped him for some reason that was never reported.

Deeefense: It used to be Mills, but there’s every reason to think it was Woodson when Walsh and D’Antoni were in charge.

Every reason except actual evidence.

So, I’m guessing Thibs didn’t say he was going to fix anyone, a la Fiz and Mudiay? I’ll be happy if he just focuses on the team playing consistently hard defense, and on offense running pick and rolls and threes.

In Covid news, now the Cardinals have an undisclosed number of players testing positive, so another game ppd tonight.

Maybe Steve Nash needs to work some more godfather magic to help RJ shoot better, although I shudder to think that he already did and this is peak RJ. (Kidding, mostly.)

Elfrid is an example of an otherwise very good player who never learned to shoot, despite practicing, being smart, etc. There’s no guarantee that RJ improves his shooting all that much. There’s only hope that he’s young enough that the bad shooting isn’t entrenched. So I guess his floor is an Elfrid Payton-level player, especially in that he’s not particularly tall or athletic.

I think by year 3 Jimmy was mad he wasn’t getting paid like guys who didn’t work like him were getting paid and the team was just a mess (obviously, a lot of this is Thibs the GM’s fault). They played well after the trade, but I guess the players still on the team wanted him gone, or ownership was pissed at how badly Thibs bungled their personnel moves.

Deeefense: I would say a functioning brain, Melo’s relationship with him, Melo’s behavior, and who became coach counts for something, but not everyone has both a functioningbrain and understands the politics.

And not everyone is dumb enough to defend Phil and his putrid tenure in the face of MOUNTAINS OF HARD EVIDENCE by making up one self-aggrandizing lie after another. You have made an art form out of talking out of your ass, to the point that you self-exiled, changed your tag, and continue to be the poster with the least credibility on this board, a perpetual laughing stock.

And the great irony is that you bash the free press for doing exactly the same shit that you continually do. You don’t even have the integrity to practice what you preach.

Brian Cronin: Not players, a member of the team’s traveling staff. If the players test negative tomorrow, they’ll probably just continue normally.

Hmm. CBS Sports is reporting “a pair of Cardinals pitchers” tested positive. CNN just “Two members of the St. Louis Cardinals…” They need to update their online articles!

Just for shits and giggles, being that RJ is one of the physically strongest 19yo 6-6 guys I’ve ever seen and that he seems to be a very physical defender with PG skills but shooting woes, can he emulate Anthony Mason? Can he become a switchable lockdown defender.

geo:

clash, bo, KFINJ, leonam, wetbandit, totes, KYN, raven, oakman cometh, TNFH, farfa, vincoug, jk, tsam, alan, early bird, raven, ras, dred, nick c, milo, dink, E, cdiggy, donnie, big blue, strat, latke, glass half, d-mar, grocer, djphan, z-man, bruno, THCJ, oaktrees, pepper, ess-dog, owen, count de pennies, swift, mike h, knickerpowerblogger, bc, mike k, hubie, mike b – add: frank, frank o and ingmarrr…

that makes 50 🙂

As long as you keep starting that list with me, all’s good.

Maybe Woodson’s actually a good assistant? Of course, as Hamlet says, “One can smile and smile and be a villain.”

Hmm. CBS Sports is reporting “a pair of Cardinals pitchers” tested positive. CNN just “Two members of the St. Louis Cardinals…” They need to update their online articles!

Yeah, now two players have tested positive. Berry berry bad.

Farfa is still around. I was less of a fan of Silverman’s writing style than some here, but had lots of respect for him.

geo:
First things first…oops, apologies forgot mister frank and frank o…also was watching the news and saw a bit of what was taking place in Israel…troubling times around the world…I hope you are doing well ingmarrr…

clash, bo, KFINJ, leonam, wetbandit, totes, KYN, raven, oakman cometh, TNFH, farfa, vincoug, jk, tsam, alan, early bird, raven, ras, dred, nick c, milo, dink, E, cdiggy, donnie, big blue, strat, latke, glass half, d-mar, grocer, djphan, z-man, bruno, THCJ, oaktrees, pepper, ess-dog, owen, count de pennies, swift, mike h, knickerpowerblogger, bc, mike k, hubie, mike b – add: frank, frank o and ingmarrr…

that makes 50 🙂

Hey, I didn’t think I commented enough around here to make any sort of list! Brings a little warmth to my cold, dark heart.

vincoug: The Anthony Mason comp is an interesting one for RJ. He would obviously need to improve his finishing but shooting 56% at the rim isn’t that bad for a rookie. Whatever he ends up being I can’t imagine it’ll be at shooting guard and I’m hoping he plays exclusively at the 3/4 next year.

I am only presenting this in the context of RJ not improving significantly from 3 and from the FT line. If he does, maybe a Shane Battier-type is possible. The point being, I think he can be a switchable defender and a glue-guy crafty player who will do whatever it takes to win once he matures.

If he improves his already decent ball skills, another comparison I think is merited is young Penny Hardaway. Penny wasn’t a great shooter but had great chemistry with that Magic team, and was a low-assist/high TO/medium USG/good rebounding PG.

Z-man: I am only presenting this in the context of RJ not improving significantly from 3 and from the FT line. If he does, maybe a Shane Battier-type is possible. The point being, I think he can be a switchable defender and a glue-guy crafty player who will do whatever it takes to win once he matures.

If he improves his already decent ball skills, another comparison I think is merited is young Penny Hardaway. Penny wasn’t a great shooter but had great chemistry with that Magic team, and was a low-assist/high TO/medium USG/good rebounding PG.

I remember Penny being way more athletic than RJ but I was a little kid when Penny was in Orlando so I’m not sure. Of course, the comp I keep on coming back to is Rudy Gay which would be a minor disaster.

How athletic was Evan Turner? He might be a reasonable comp.

oh man, z-man – i wonder and worry a bit about knick fan in celtic land every once in a while…i remember him being so nice and helpful explaining all of derrick rose’s ailments (he’s a doc)…i also though remember one of his last comments being about some health challenges he was experiencing…it’s been a couple of years since i’ve seen him post, i hope he’s okay, and still suffering as a knick’s fan…

you have an excellent memory sir:
clash, bo, KFINJ, leonam, wetbandit, totes, KYN, raven, oakman cometh, TNFH, farfa, vincoug, jk, tsam, alan, early bird, raven, ras, dred, nick c, milo, dink, E, cdiggy, donnie, big blue, strat, latke, glass half, d-mar, grocer, djphan, z-man, bruno, THCJ, oaktrees, pepper, ess-dog, owen, count de pennies, swift, mike h, knickerpowerblogger, bc, mike k, hubie, mike b, frank, frank o , ingmarrr add: KDM, slovene knick, iojonne (???), z and KFICL (i hope you are well)…

yikes, i can’t remember, who is KDM?

ha vincoug :)…i’ll tell you – it was hard initially to remember names and most importantly persons…basketball opinions alone don’t really stick so well to names…and, to be honest, many of you write like i think and feel about stuff, so, that makes it hard for folk’s comments to really stick out and differentiate…when folks write stuff that is really easy to digest, it just doesn’t really stick as easily…

when folks say reasonable shit all the time, it just takes a while to spot something unique…

perfect example: Brings a little warmth to my cold, dark heart.…that is totally something that could easily roll off my own fingertips…

what helped me with you is your words on cooking – it just stuck with me that you really know what the heck you’re talking about when it comes to cooking…and, i love food…

absolutely no doubt: knickblogger posters >>>>>>>>> knick’s basketball team 🙂

TDM (not KDM).

Other top contributors over the years include Ben R, Flossy, Silky (née Alecto?), Max Fisher Cohen, Ephus, the aforementioned Caleb and DaJudge, Rama, David Crockett, Thomas B., cgreene, chrisk08611, DS, and authors Kevin McElroy and the brilliant Jim Cavan.

(And the geo-before-there-was-geo nice guy DanVT:)

Why isn’t Battier a coach in the NBA?

(Why isn’t Battier president of the untied states?)

@JCMacriNBA
Lance Thomas with the first 4-point play of the bubble. Naturally.

Berman on an early candidate for Thibs’ staff:

According to an NBA source, Ed Pinckney, the former Villanova star who won an NCAA title and is a product of the South Bronx projects, is expected to be strongly considered.

[…]

The 6-foot-9 former power forward would be brought in to be the Knicks big-man coach. Under David Fizdale, assistant Pat Sullivan worked with the bigs, got along well with center Mitchell Robinson and was chosen by GM Scott Perry. Sullivan still has a year left on his contract. It’s unclear if Perry will push for Sullivan, a Jersey native, to return.

Meanwhile, there have been internal talks about Pat Zipfel joining as either an advance scout or bench coach. Zipfel, who worked under Daryl Morey in Houston, is considered one of the NBA’s top advance scouts. Zipfel was Thibodeau’s advance man for part of his Bulls and Minnesota stints. The advance scout is considered part of the coaching staff.

i forgot a bunch…
clash, bo, KFINJ, leonam, wetbandit, totes, KYN, raven, oakman cometh, TNFH, farfa, vincoug, jk, tsam, alan, early bird, raven, ras, dred, nick c, milo, dink, E, cdiggy, donnie, big blue, strat, latke, glass half, d-mar, grocer, djphan, z-man, bruno, THCJ, oaktrees, pepper, ess-dog, owen, count de pennies, swift, mike h, knickerpowerblogger, bc, mike k, hubie, mike b, frank, frank o , ingmarrr, TDM, slovene knick, iojonne (???), z, KFICL, ben r, kevin mcelroy, jim caven, chrisk08611, cgreene, ephus, caleb, daarn, iserp, tastycakes, da judge, iserp, david crockett, thomas b, DS, max fisher cohen, flossy, silky and rama…

wow…

oh shit, you’re right: danvt…great voice, really nice music – lives in a small town with an absolutely lovely bookstore…

RJ is the same height as Draymond but is probably between 20-30 lbs lighter than him right now (and I’m guessing has a shorter wingspan?)

But maybe he has the potential to be that type of playmaking, small-ball PF.

Donnie Walsh:
Mason was 6’7”, 250. Barrett is 6’6”, 206. So, to guard a guy like Olajuwon in the post without help (as Mason did), would require him to gain 44lbs, all in his legs and butt. Do it, RJ!

Mase (rip) was really a unique player, haven’t seem anyone exactly like him before or since. RJ will never be the beast that Mase was on D, but he has a similar looking broken J and FT and ball skills and is more of a horizontal than vertical athlete.

ess-dog: RJ is the same height as Draymond but is probably between 20-30 lbs lighter than him right now (and I’m guessing has a shorter wingspan?)

But maybe he has the potential to be that type of playmaking, small-ball PF.

I see RJ topping out at around 220, but he doesn’t have the freaky wingspan of Draymond, so may not be as switchable. But RJ may wind up being a better scorer at a higher usage. The question is, will RJ’s ego let him embrace being a lower-usage glue guy like Mase/Draymond/Battier? He definitely has the all-around talent to be a very good one but I don’t see his USG% ever dipping into the teens.

vincoug: I remember Penny being way more athletic than

How athletic was Evan Turner?He might be a reasonable comp.

Yeah, hopefully that’s RJ’s floor…

Early Bird:
I’ve never been a fan of RJ, so I think this “down on RJ” talk is people just realizing his actual talent level isn’t as high as everyone thought.

RJ was the #1 player out of HS which often generates unwarranted hype

RJ scored lots of points in college, another source of unwarranted hype, despite his poor efficiency

RJ played on a successful college team (thanks Zion!!), but ignore the fact the team underperformed

From the tape I’ve seen RJ:

– Only goes left
– Isn’t explosive or quick enough to get by anyone
– can’t shoot
– passes out of set plays but otherwise struggles to make reads

Maybe RJ can become a solid player, but I’ve always thought his most likely outcome is inefficient/high-usage psuedo-star.

Oh, I’ve always been down on RJ. I watched a lot of Duke basketball that year because Zion was such an exciting player and I came away seriously unimpressed by Barrett. I was devastated when we fell to 3rd in the draft. Luckily, this year’s draft sucks so there’s almost no outcome that could upset me that much.

Ntilakilla:
Didn’t Woodson have serious ties to the same Creative Artist’s Agency which Leon Rose worked for? He even dumped his agent back in 2012 to sign with them at the same time it was rumored that the agency had major influence in the Knicks organization from Carmelo Anthony, to assistant general manager Allan Houston, to player personnel director Warkentien. One Knicks player went so far as to anonymously identify CAA as a major problem in the locker room.

Yeah, Woodson definitely seems like a plant in what is an inept revolving door franchise.

This is typical half-baked conspiracy-theory BS. We all know that CAA was an influence. CAA had lots of influence all over the NBA. That doesn’t make Woodson a Dolan rat who stabbed D’Antoni in the back. D’Antoni was perfectly capable of running himself out of town, especially when he didn’t have an engine for his rigid system.

But at that point you’re basically punting on defense and hoping RJ’s offensive playmaking can carry your team. I would much rather see RJ at SF and hope that works out.

Yeah, I could see a little bit of 4 in Barrett, but he definitely should at least play the 3.

***“Didn’t Woodson have serious ties to the same Creative Artist’s Agency which Leon Rose worked for?… Woodson definitely seems like a plant in what is an inept revolving door franchise.***

I don’t get this. Leon Rose was Tom Thibodeau’s agent for his entire career up until the moment Rose took the job at MSG. Why would he need a plant?

I don’t get this. Leon Rose was Tom Thibodeau’s agent for his entire career up until the moment Rose took the job at MSG. Why would he need a plant?

Because their professional relationship changed and Rose’s job isn’t to represent Thibodeau anymore?

This sounds promising, from Begley:

There is internal consideration in the organization to hire a significant number of player-development coaches for Thibodeau’s staff, per SNY sources.

Those coaches would be hired in addition to the assistant coaches who will work under Thibodeau.

The Knicks have one of the youngest rosters in the NBA and have seven first-round draft picks over the next four years. So it’s fair to assume that they see player development as a top priority.

***Because their professional relationship changed and Rose’s job isn’t to represent Thibodeau anymore?***

But that makes Woodson moot too. You can’t have the cake and eat it too.

I remember back when Jeff Van Gundy was saying stuff on TV in defense of Thibodeau and critical of the Bulls front office, Rose called him and asked him not to interfere because it was throwing smoke on the fire in Chicago and making it harder for Thibs to do his job. Presumably the two of them know how to navigate the politics of NBA offices together, without the need for moles.

***What player? Funny how it’s an anonymous source whose identity was never revealed, yet you swallow it like it’s gospel, and coming from Chris Broussard no less. Was it Amare? Chandler? Kidd? Bargnani? It means absolutely nothing without some verification.***

It was Chris Smith.

This is a good game!

i’m not sure why ppl are so down on rj…. everyone was so gungho on mega prospects of frank and that he’s only 19 years old and he’ll figure it out eventually that when we actually get a real prospect we’re making comps to rodney stuckey…..

rj put in a normalish rookie year….. he was never mega superstar level of upside….. but he’s got a lot of the other rj (richard jefferson) … jason richardson…. and those type of wings…. about above average…..

what he struggled with is shooting… and there’s no guarantee that it will develop…. but he was scoring pretty well inside although not efficiently…. he drives to the basket so much and he meets a lot of resistance when he does and he’s just not athletic or skillful enough to finish when he gets late pressure….

he was starting to deal with it much better as the season progressed…. but his 2p fg% is still in ‘fine’ territory….. his free throw shooting was also much better after the disastrous first month….. if you expect those things to improve then you’re going to have about a league average shooting guard next year…. which is really good for a 20 year old…..

next year is key tho…. there’s no guarantee that shooting develops but generally it does… especially for a guy that works hard…. the secondary skills are there and they are for real…. he’s a good prospect…. he’s one to be patient with…..

Z-man:
Why can’t we be Memphis?

Since I live in TN, easy for me to root for them. But yeah, I wish the Knicks had Jah.

Why the hell have Nurcic try to guard JJJ out at the three point line?

This is a great finish

I mean if we get this version of Melo for the minimum I guess I won’t complain

I can hear it now…I’m comin’ home, I’m comin’ home…

OT! Melo misses a game winning 3

Spot Up Shooter Melo!

CJ!

djphan: everyone was so gungho on mega prospects of frank and that he’s only 19 years old and he’ll figure it out eventually

I have no idea where you got the idea that everyone was gungho on Frank. There’s several years worth and tens of thousands of posts arguing that Frank is a terrible prospect.

More importantly, Frank was drafted for his defense and so his inability to score is less relevant than RJ’s inability to score. Frank-ophiles believe Frank’s defense is good enough to outweigh any offensive shortcomings (as a Frank-hater, I must admit there have been stretches of his defense that make question myself). But when you draft a player based on their ability to score but it turns out that player sucks at scoring, you may have some legitimate worries about the player.

One season is certainly too short to judge a player’s NBA prospects, but he showed many of the same weaknesses as a rookie that he showed in college and HS–inability to score efficiently or shoot the ball. I don’t see why we should disregard the first month of RJ’s FT shooting sample, this is the same mistake that Ruruland consistently made with Melo. I partly blame Keith Smart, but historically RJ has struggled with FTs so I give him less of the benefit of doubt in this area.

Also, Richard Jefferson and Jason Richardson are much better athletes than RJ. Both those guys were vertical leapers in a way that Rj isn’t. However, I do approve of your comparing RJ only to other players whose initials are RJ or JR. We should do this for all players.

This fully healthy Blazers team is probably the best overall bubble (no pun intended) team but also the one I’d least like to see get the last spot. Pelicans and Grizzlies are much more fun.

Zach Collins with the bonehead move, probably doesn’t matter.

Just wanted to chime in as well to mention how awesome this finish to Memphis-Portland has been. Now time for Yankees vs Red Sox…

Griz still breathing…

Hezonja for the win!

Skinny Melo playing himself into a Knicks contract

However, I do approve of your comparing RJ only to other players whose initials are RJ or JR. We should do this for all players.

I like it. So Frank’s only FN comp in the NBA or ABA is Fritz Nagy who played one season in 1949. You are making Frank look good. 🙂

I have a question:

Why are the 2020 Playoffs dividing the playoffs between “east” and “west”? Geography is totally out the window, and they have already invited a disproportionate number of western conference teams into the bubble, so why not just take the top 16 teams and seed them as a whole? It’s what they’ve been floating for a while even without a pandemic, isn’t it the obvious thing to do now? I mean, the Wizards are 24-41, why reward them with a playoff berth over, say, the Blazers, who obviously belong on a playoff stage a lot more than Washington does?

Nice work KFICL!

Sabrina’s ankle looked like it just about exploded. Felt sick. What the hell is wrong with playing basketball in this town?

awwww, i can’t tell you how much of a smile you’ve given me KFICL…i’m so glad to hear you are well…

wow, i don’t know even what to think of your story – that is truly amazing…talk about will and perseverance…

you medical practitioners are insane :)…it’s hard to think of another group (maybe artists, educators, folks in the prayer business) who are as dedicated to their profession…whatever you are getting back from what you put in must be truly significant…

getting old just doesn’t seem to have the same meaning to you all…

Z-man:
Haha, I was hoping that some lurkers would emerge from the shadows, glad to hear you have recovered so well! I did two NYC marathons (2016 age 58 and 2018 60) but recently my back had been a disaster and even walking hurts. Not a surgical candidate yet but I can’t be like this much longer. PT, chiro and injection haven’t worked.

Sorry to hear about the back. If you ever make it up my way, I can get you in with a guy I work with who keeps the New England Patriots backs healthy.

KnickFanInCelticLand: Sorry to hear about the back. If you ever make it up my way, I can get you in with a guy I work with who keeps the New England Patriots backs healthy.

Bookmarked!

He just really needs to learn to shoot and be more efficient at the basket. It’d be gamechanging.

the thing is that he was pretty efficient near the basket…. or efficient for the amount of attempts… he was getting to the basket a lot and finishing at a 53% clip which is pretty good…. if you look at westbrook’s shooting splits he came from a worse starting point at a higher age…. and he cut down on his attempts near the basket and eventually catapulted his efficiency near the basket to >60%….

that’s the path for rj….. of course westbrook got a lot stronger and got more creative on his finishes which is what rj is gonna have to do….. but it’s something that good prospects find a way with….

One season is certainly too short to judge a player’s NBA prospects, but he showed many of the same weaknesses as a rookie that he showed in college and HS–inability to score efficiently or shoot the ball.

efficiency is not something that generally translates at a 1:1 clip… someone who shoots 3s well in college is gonna be wildly efficient but in the pro’s it’s gonna usually be a lot worse….. rj’s problem in college was that he shot way too many 3s…. and his shot selection was altogether pretty bad….

he’s come a long way to fixing that… and while he’s probably shooting too many 3s…. he wasn’t forcing too many shots ….. that’s good…. he’ll have to do better inside and shooting basically from everywhere but that’s not an impossible feat…. especially for someone who was really efficient in 2p territory in college… he’s getting to the line pretty well in the pro’s too and that’s a key foundational skill for any kind of efficiency….

Damn, Equality just kicked Black Lives Matter in the balls and pushed him to the floor. (Somewhere, Bob Neptune is smiling).

@djphan

The problem with looking at RJ’s college numbers is you also have to look at how he played in college. RJ in college didn’t have a particularly advanced scoring game; no real post moves, no real dribble moves. He mostly just bullied smaller, less athletic players. And while he could get away with that in college where he had above average strength and athleticism, it’s pretty average for an NBA player.

KP looking good

Well here’s the other problem, if RJ plays the wing in the NBA he needs to shoot threes or run the offense. He can’t shoot threes and I don’t think he’s up to running an NBA offense, evidenced by his struggles working out if anything other than a set play in college. His college playmaking numbers were also bolstered by Zion and the fact he always had the ball in his hands.

As far as RJ as a scorer at the rim, his ability is neutralized in part by his woeful FT shooting which has been an ongoing problem for him. You can’t make your living scoring at the rim unless you hit your FTs or score at a much higher % than RJ scores at.

RJ will no doubt improve as a sophomore, I just don’t see how he improves in the ways he needs to improve to the extent he needs to improve.

All that said, I love RJ the person and his work ethic. I hope he proves me wrong.

Dallas can score, but their defense is horrific.

I expect significant improvement by all Knicks youngsters under Thibs.
Whoever don’t show signs of improvement must say “bye bye my darling” without 2nd thoughts and justifications.
Elvis “It’s now or never” playing on the back…

Now that I’ve adjusted to the initial shock, I now love this format. It’s like March Madness, but with good basketball players.

I don’t think I want to go back.

Ex-Knicks showing up to play against the Rockets tonight.

I told y’all Trey Burke was good!

OMG, this is only the 2nd quarter?!

Trey Burke looks different now that he is not a Knick

Might the Rockets want to reconsider the mini-lineup?

Do you wanna win ?
Grab 2-3 hungry for Wins ex knicks players and you’re ready!
Shump and Jr
Mook and Noah
Kp Timmy Burke
Lance and Jamal !!!!!

Donnie Walsh:
Now that I’ve adjusted to the initial shock, I now love this format. It’s like March Madness, but with good basketball players.

I don’t think I want to go back.

It helps a lot that the Knicks aren’t included because:

(1) I don’t have to watch the Knicks, and
(2) I don’t have to feel resentment that the Knicks aren’t included.

Or maybe a few months off is just enough of a reset to not be exhausted by the regular season, especially 82 Knicks games.

I feel like this rest period benefited KP as much as anybody playing in the NBA this season.

But the Rockets’ defense is pure ‘Antoni.

Ntilakilla:
I feel like this rest period benefited KP as much as anybody playing in the NBA this season.

It definitely helps confirm his Mr. November rep

What if we all just pretended that our fandoms were throw-ins with the KP trade along with Courtney Lee’s contract?

The refs must want Dallas to win the game with some of these calls.

Disgruntled “star” players have gotten coaches fired all the time, whether CAA was involved or not. D’Antoni was a dead man walking as soon as Melo was brought in. I’m sure he wanted no part of that trade.

Z-man: What’s your point?

My point is that Woodson is definitely in Leon Rose’s pocket, a documented fact when he switched to the CAA the moment he became coach for a CAA-dominated Knicks team back in 2012, and was most likely chosen as a coaching assistant to Tom Thibadeau, one of the most independent-minded and strong-willed head coaches in the NBA for that reason.

You have absolutely no evidence that non-CAA players were treated worse (other than an anonymous quote via an openly homophobic reporter) or not paid as much as they would have been otherwise solely on the basis of being non-CAA

….

As to Chris Smith, do you think Giannis’ brother Thanasis is on the team on a two-year deal because of his basketball prowess?

Um, your analogy just made my point, providing the proof you claim I don’t have. CAA had as much influence in the Knicks FO as Giannis does in the Bucks FO. That’s a considerable amount of power.

D’Antoni was a dead man walking as soon as Melo was brought in. I’m sure he wanted no part of that trade.

What is your hard-on for D’Antoni? His dismissal is besides my point. I never mentioned it once and you’ve done so three times already.

also lol at jayson tatum shooting 2-18 tonight after he made the superstar leap

RJ Barrett is going to be an NBA all star before he’s 22 years old provided the Knicks put a competent roster around him. He’s largely judged here by his bad shooting numbers, but those should honestly be viewed on a scale. Last year’s Knicks team was constructed so poorly that guys saw some tremendous drops in efficiency year over year. Marcus Morris, Bobby Portis, and Frank Ntilikina were probably the only guys whose efficiency numbers didn’t suffer but other than that across the board it was a down year for the entire roster (aside from Gibson and Mitchell Robinson who did all of their damage from the dunker spot). Wayne Ellington has not been a .509 TS% guy recently, but last year he was. Julius Randle went from a .600 TS% to like .532. Reggie Bullock’s TS% dropped around 40 points. Elfrid Payton’s TS% went down 30 points.

When an entire roster of players sees a regression in their numbers, it speaks to poor roster construction, poor player development, and bad coaching. All of those guys got fired, except for Scott Perry whose trade for the LAC 1RP looks better and better each day with the way Mook has played since joining the Clippers.

Perspective is important. I’m 99% sure everybody on this board would love today’s Brandon Ingram but if we drafted him out of Duke you’d have Knox’d him. RJ Barrett’s a hard worker, he’s a high IQ player, he gets to the line a ton, and he’s very strong. He looks less athletic than he actually is because he isn’t very fluid with the ball in his hand, but where he doesn’t give you a speed/quickness advantage he gives you a strength advantage. Once the shot starts to fall and the Knicks put guys around him that play winning basketball you’ll see what we really have.

Revisiting Thibs’ comments about using the G-league, Berman suggests Perry previously fought Craig Robinson on doing that:

According to an NBA source familiar with the situation, Robinson lobbied to have the Knicks’ top prospects who weren’t getting enough NBA time to spend a few games — or weeks — in the G-League to gain rhythm and grow confidence.

Perry rejected the notion, feeling it would be perceived as too big a demotion and felt practice time as well as being around NBA coaches was more vital, according to a source. Robinson’s counter was that during the NBA season, practice time and scrimmages are limited.

Perry’s still here, but he’s a leftover of the previous regime, while Thibs is Rose’s handpicked guy. I wonder how a similar dispute between the two of them will go…

It was the typical “talk out of both sides of their mouths” Knick era. “Minutes don’t matter” and then “Wooten needs more minutes.”

I think Perry did some plus things. His Melo trade, his Morris trade and even his Hernangomez trade were. good. I was and am unhappy about the KP trade, but it got good reviews for value received at the time and if his marching orders were make room for Durant and Irving, he did his job.

“ He’s not grossly incompetent at his job the way Mills was as GM under Phil”

You gotta respect the commitment to the bit

let’s go Rangers!…oops wrong board…

I’m starting to wonder..
How much of Ntilikina’s issues are his actual game, and how much does spacing and not being flashy contribute to how he looks. I mean..I see plenty of flashes of solid game. I think previous coaches have nearly killed his confidence by starting guys like Jack and Mudiay over him..or DSJ because of his flash. None of those guys are actually better overall players than him IMO. I’m sorry..I’m a big Ntilikina fan because I’m old school and I love defense and point guards. I don’t think he’ll ever be a star, so maybe it’s time to stop expecting star qualities out of the slot he was drafted in. Not trying to move the goalposts, but history has shown that not every lottery pick is a star. Hell, even top picks underwhelm often. Even still, as much of a fan of his I am, we blew it by not drafting Donovan Mitchell. But..hindsight is 20/20, so….

The Glass Half Rebuilt: Marcus Morris, Bobby Portis, and Frank Ntilikina were probably the only guys whose efficiency numbers didn’t suffer but other than that across the board it was a down year for the entire roster (aside from Gibson and Mitchell Robinson who did all of their damage from the dunker spot).

Yes. If we ignore half the roster, we can conclude that everyone had a down year.

If the lottery gods had just gifted us one of Zion, Ja or Luka, this franchise would be in a whole other place.

So depressing….

He’s not grossly incompetent at his job the way Mills was as GM under Phil or as POBO where he did serious damage

PJ: Get me Joakim Noah
SM: He’s asking for 4/72
PJ: Listen, I don’t understand what numbers are, just sign Joakim Noah
SM: But that means we’ll have less cap space to spend on other pl—
PJ: I SAID NO NUMBERS
SM: Well who else do you want to sign
PJ: Listen, I just ate some peyote buttons and Courtney Lee appeared to me as my spirit animal, maybe sign him
SM: Okay, he wants four years
PJ: FOUR IS A NUMBER, I SAID NO NUMBERS

Ntilakilla: Um, your analogy just made my point, providing the proof you claim I don’t have. CAA had as much influence in the Knicks FO as Giannis does in the Bucks FO. That’s a considerable amount of power.

Again, the argument isn’t about CAA’s power, it’s about Mike Woodson. You keep going back to things we agree on to defend a totally different point.

Ntilakilla: What is your hard-on for D’Antoni? His dismissal is besides my point. I never mentioned it once and you’ve done so three times already.

Once again, we’re arguing about Woodson’s involvement in a CAA scheme to replace D’Antoni. What point of mine are you trying to refute?

No surprise, though, your reasoning is about as valid now as it was when you used the “pull things out of my ass” approach to defending the Ntilikina pick. How did that work out for you?

Farfa, I am sorry that it’s been such a tough stretch for you. I think it’s pretty unanimous here at KB that you deserve only the best, and hopefully that is what awaits you going forward, especially when recap time starts up again in December. Keep us informed and we’ll keep sending good karma your way.

If only Pulisic didn’t play for chelsea…

And if only he hadn’t just got injured again. Dammit.

Hey, Farfa, I hope everything works out well for you! I miss your recaps!

Pulisic is from Hershey. Best player America has ever produced. Gio Reyna is also looking like a potential star.

An Oklahoma state representative issued a statement warning Oklahoma City Thunder players against kneeling during the National Anthem, and threatened to reexamine the Thunder’s tax benefits if players kneel, per

i hear seattle’s single.

i know it is wishful thinking but it would be incredible if roberson miraculously came back near 100 pct. okc was actually a pretty dominant team with their best guys on the floor, they just had to play some really marginal guys a lot of minutes. one more rotation guy would help a lot.

the bubble has really made me appreciate the unceasing intensity of some of the veteran maniac-stars like butler, westbrook and cp3. it adds back a bit of what you lose from the empty gym.

The Glass Half Rebuilt: So yes, if you weren’t a center, Frank Ntilikina, or Marcus Morris, you struggled on offense this year. That’s the environment we put RJ Barrett into.

  

Dotson
Morris
Mitch
Taj
Trier
Harkless at .536 TS% is barely under his career .544 average
Portis
Ntilikina
Knox from .475 to .470 TS%

All of the above were above or at least near their career averages. We had 17 players log minutes, that’s 9 of them. We had 2 rookies. So of the players with a career average we can use as a comparison, you literally have to ignore over half of them to make your point.

Your sample of tremendous drops then includes:

DSJR whose shot was broken by Keith Smart over the summer

Randle who completely changed his role from PnR finisher to offense initiator and spin move extraordinaire

Bullock who suffered a severe offseason injury

Payton who came back from an injury

Kadeem Allen who played 117 minutes

Ellington for whom I have nothing witty to write

Leonam:
I think the Utah Jazz are toasted. They have absolutely no bench besides Jordan Clarkson. They have no wild card player coming back from injury, and actually lost their sharpshooter, Bogdanovic. For whatever reason, the Michael Conely trade really didn’t them any favors. He’s a far cry from the player he was in his best moments with the Grizzlies. I considered them a legit contender before the start of the season, but now I just can’t see how they will make out of the first round. Conley’s Gargantuan salary, with no production, cripples them.

They should have signed Lance Thomas

Donnie Walsh:
This is so much better than the regular NBA. I haven’t watched this much basketball in years.

I don’t miss the fans, the noise, the mascots, the cheerleaders, the T-shirt cannons, the celebrity court-side interviews, the streakers, or the Knicks.

The only thing I’d like back is the names on the jerseys because, without watching much tv over the past few years and only reading box scores, I have no idea what these guys look like.

Contract the league to 22 teams. Play a 3 week regular season and a 3 month playoff, I’m in.

agree…this is like watching the best pickup games…plus there is no home court ref bias…once this gets to the playoffs it’s going to be awesome…

d-mar:
This Clippers team is nasty, and they don’t even have Lou and Montrezl. Nothing like having 2 all-NBA players leading your squad who also happen to be superb defenders. And Beverly is like the Rodman of guards.

They’re my favorite to win it all.

Mine too, since july 2019. They may have some trouble guarding Anthony Davis, but they are more than capable of handling LeBron, and their bench is clearly better than the Lakers’. I can’t see any team beating them 4 times out of 7 (even Antetokounmpo and the mighty Bucks). But I’ve been wrong many times before.

(unlike Utah, the Lakers at least have a WILD card in Dion Waiters, someone who can get a bucket or two out of his hat).

I’m gonna miss the Yankees so much in like 4 days when the season is (rightfully) cancelled

Silver lining of being a Mets fan: I won’t miss them when the season is canceled

The Clippers are talented and very deep, and I’d probably favor them over the Lakers, but they are going to have trouble with the Lakers size

JK47: Silver lining of being a Mets fan: I won’t miss them when the season is canceled

Luis Rojas already looks shellshocked, even through his mask. Somewhere Mickey Callaway is smirking.

thenoblefacehumper:
The Pacers RECEIVED three picks for taking on T.J. Warren, who looks to have one of the best non-rookie/non-max contracts in the league and isn’t yet 27. That’s nuts.

We got Bobby Portis tho.

Kevin Pritchard is still one of the best executives in the NBA. It’s a shame we never hire a guy like that.

Nba axiom
Any player going to the knicks becomes worse

Life tip
No one ever lost by betting against the Knicks

as great as the games were on thursday/friday, duds all day today…

to be honest though, I’ve watched like a week’s worth of games the last few days…I’m pretty basketballed out right now…

got disney plus recently – for the kids 🙂

right now going through the clone wars: final season the last couple of days, still in the first story arc: 705 -708…

I started watching clone wars like five years ago – life has happened, and, I just finished the end of season six…that final arc though…

sifo-dyas, yoda, dooku, dagaboh, and best of all – moraband…the sound and in particular animation have progressed to such an unbelievable point…

yoda has been depicted in a lot of different ways over the years (I have the disney infinity yoda :), how he looks in 611 is easily his best…

i know it’s “just a cartoon”, but, it’s one of my all time favorite series…I like the tone, similiar at times to rogue one…episode 110 locked me in…

I’m hard pressed to recall another series though that simply got that much better as the show continued…

I’ve heard the final arc (709 – 712) is some of the best work of the whole show…i’m so excited…

TJ Warren scored 53 points? What the fuck

Unlike Jimmer, TJ is actually good. I can’t believe Indiana got him WITH assets.

I’m guessing 53…

I learned some things about TJ Warren tonight’

Raptors looking sharp.

It’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that AD is gonna get tired of playing with a bunch of losers and will come join the Knicks.

Donnie Walsh:
***I learned some things about TJ Warren tonight’***

Like his name?

And the team he currently plays for?

I used to follow the Suns heavily during the Nash era. Since they traded Nash, the Suns have been mostly trash, with the lone good moment being the 2013-14 season (the campaign that propelled Jeff Hornacek’s brief career as head coach). They have been one of the worst run franchises in NBA for a decade. Their incompetence is not duly exposed only because there are worse situations around the league, as in Sacramento and New York City. They have made Knicksy moves for years.

After overachieving in 2013-2014 with Hornacek, they traded for the up-and-coming Isaiah Thomas and went into 2014-15 with high expectations. When they didn’t meet those expectations, things unraveled. Since some of you seem to not know some of the blunders, I spent some time making a list of TRASH moves from 2015 onwards:

– 2015: Phoenix trade Goran Dragic (reigning MIP) to Miami for 2 1st picks in 2018 and 2019 (not bad).

– 2015: Trade Isaiah Thomas for Marcus Thornton expiring contract and Cleveland’s 2016 1st (horrific: Thomas was clearly a star in the making, and a 6MOY candidate with the Suns: in 2,5 months in Boston, he would be the Eastern Conference Player of the Week 3 times; a 1st from LeBron’s Cleveland was like a 2nd-round pick).

– 2015: Trade a Lakers protected first-round pick (top 5 protection) to Milwaukee for Brandon Knight. So they started the year with Dragic-Bledsoe-Thomas and traded that for a Bledsoe-Knight backcourt. Bledsoe would soon say “I don’t wanna be here”, and the Lakers pick was known to be a high one at the time.

(cont.)

– 2018: Trade Zhaire Smith and Miami’s 2021 1st pick for Mikal Bridges. –> Good deal, in general; one has to consider, HOWEVER, that Bridges was selected with the Lakers 1st round that was owned by Phoenix until they traded it to Milwaukee for Brandon Knight. The Bucks then traded the pick straight for the ROY Michael Carter-Williams, the ultimate Sam Hinkie deal.

– 2018: Trade Brandon Knight’s contract to Houston, but have to add Marquese Chriss (a lottery pick in 2016) as sweetener.

– 2018: 10 days before the season starts, the owner fires the GM.

– 2018: The Suns trade for Memphis’ Dillon Brooks, while the Grizzlies thought they were sending MarShon Brooks. The rest of the league laughs and the trade is cancelled.

– 2018: Trade Trevor Ariza for Kelly Oubre Jr. (great deal).

– 2019: Fire coach Koskosov after 1 (one) season as head coach (3-year contract).

– 2019: The Suns decline Bender’s fourth year option (rookie option), and he becomes a free agent.

– 2019: Three-team deal in which the Suns trade T.J. Warren – a 25-year starter with 4 more years under contract – AND the 32th pick for cash considerations (horrific deal). Warren becomes the starting SF in a playoff team.

– 2019: 2 years after not being traded for Kyrie Irving, Josh Jackson is traded to the Grizzlies, alongside 2 (TWO) 2nd-round picks (come on).

Well, that’s it. You would be hard-pressed to find much worse 5-year runs. From 2014-2015 to 2018-2019, the Suns have won 30% of their games.

Imagine being as poorly ran as the Suns and still ending up with Booker, Oubre Jr, Bridges, and Ayton.

Has Hubert been banned? Haven’t heard from him in a couple days. He’s one of the dozen or so posters who’s takes I look forward to hearing. I know he was pretty worked up in the last thread

Fetch:
Has Hubert been banned? Haven’t heard from him in a couple days. He’s one of the dozen or so posters who’s takes I look forward to hearing. I know he was pretty worked up in the last thread

Feels like a few people were given a timeout the last few days. There appears to be a few regulars missing from the comments section since July 30.

No bans since bob.

The only poster I ever supported banning here was reub. Because fuck reub. That’s what an actual, intentional troll looks like.

I could do without the insulting sexist language, but like I said earlier, there’s lots of it (sadly) on sports forums.

IIRC about reub, it got to the point where if you disagreed with him about almost anything you’d get a personal attack back.

It’s not just the language, it’s the needless provocation via a poor choice of words. Not that I’m perfect in that regard, but some just can’t resist the urge to make mountains out of molehills.

“And his running battles with a few of our regular posters have added an amusement factor to the thread.”

Z-Man, you are totally making my day…

Didn’t reub re-emerge as GianiDani or something like that?

He’s had a few over the years.

So, is Cespedes pulling a Derrick Rose on the Mets? If you missed it, he’s AWOL today.

Sounds like it, but honestly, their statement was kind of sketchy, because the reports are now that they know that he is not in any danger, but they still released the statement about being unable to contact him, which is a pretty alarming thing to say, right? So it seemed designed to just shame Cespedes.

JK47:
This is exactly like the Derrick Rose situation.

If it’s really 100% like the Derrick Rose situation Cespedes will be back in the lineup tomorrow and will face no discipline. So that’s an interesting question. Is Brodie Van Wagenen EVEN MORE incompetent than Phil Jackson? We’re about to find out!

Has he given a 5 year max contract with a no-trade clause to Cespedes? Than no, he isn’t more incompetent than Phil Jackson.

vincoug: Has he given a 5 year max contract with a no-trade clause to Cespedes?Than no, he isn’t more incompetent than Phil Jackson.

No, but he did trade away a couple of blue chip prospects to take on 5 years and about $100 million of the declining Robinson Cano up to his age 40 season (Cano’s off to a fast start this season, but it won’t last). Oh, yeah, he got Edwin Diaz, too. And, no one’s trading FOR Cano now, so it might as well include a no-trade clause!
🙂

Z-man:
It is unbelievable how bad Edwin Diaz has been. In fairness, no one could have predicted that.

Sure, but relief pitchers are so volatile, you should not trade blue chip prospects for one like him AND take on a big contract (and five years’ worth) of a declining player who you totally don’t need. Diaz should’ve been the sweetener in the deal. Instead, BVW included two very tasty sweeteners…

TheClashFan: No, but he did trade away a couple of blue chip prospects to take on 5 years and about $100 million of the declining Robinson Cano up to his age 40 season (Cano’s off to a fast start this season, but it won’t last). Oh, yeah, he got Edwin Diaz, too.And, no one’s trading FOR Cano now, so it might as well include a no-trade clause!
🙂

Oh, I’m not defending BVW he’s been godawful. I was against signing him to begin with and wanted to go with the analytics guy and not the agent. But as bad as he’s been he still isn’t give a max contract with an NTC to a 30-year old player who’s never been a top-10 guy, is coming off an injury, and looked washed up a season ago.

Just saw this. Yoenis is opting out for the rest of the season.

Just saw this.Yoenis is opting out for the rest of the season.

I really really wonder if he was sulking and now opting out b/c they were DHing him rather than letting him play in the OF. Frankly, the Mets OF play has been pretty poor, so he might have a grief. If it really is about health, how about making a phone call?

Lest he continue to feed Jowles’ anti-Boomer rants.

I mean, just last week, my pension-holding Boomer (now ex-)boss tried to hard-sell me into staying with the company I had been with for the past seven years, saying they had “done a lot for me.” When I reminded him that I had received an offer for ~30% more money for roughly the same responsibilities — proving that they had been underpaying me relative to my market value — and did not have, unlike him and those of his age group, a pension for life, stock options and a five-week vacation cap (all phased out about 15 years ago), simply for having joined the company later than he did, he doubled down on the “but [company] has done a lot for you,” angle. That’s peak Boomer, and it’s a consequence of beliefs that appear to be based on one’s age and very little else. I don’t see how else to explain hypocritical/self-blind behavior that’s rooted in being born into a different era, all the while maintaining that younger generations are spoiled and privileged.

But I don’t believe that Baby Boomers are inherently shitty. I just see OK Boomer as a movement that’s more about the shitty attitudes that are fairly common in their ranks.

JK47:
Even if the Mets were winning games they wouldn’t need Yo. If he could play in the field they’d be running him out there instead of Dom Smith and JD Davis, but apparently dude is not really healthy enough to play in the field. At this point Smith and Davis are probably both better hitters than Cespedes, so whatever, smell ya later big guy. Now you can get both of those guys in the lineup. We’re not winning anything anyway so might as well let the young guys take some cuts and play in the field.

The smart thing to do would be to move Alonso to DH, let Smith play 1B and see if you can get Davis to play a reasonably decent LF.

That’s basically what I would do too. I’d also like to see Cano playing more DH so we can get Gimenez in the lineup more often.

But I don’t believe that Baby Boomers are inherently shitty.”

Well phew, I’ll tell Jon Stewart, Nihad Awad, Ann Patchett, Barak Obama, and Esmeralda Simmons that they’re off the hook.

Sounds to me like you work in a shitty industry with shitty people. You might like to pin the blame on the older ones, but I’ve found that shitty people make up the majority of people of any particular age group. There might be flavors, but when they’re treating you like shit the flavor doesn’t really matter.

Maybe you should look for a job in a sector with a lower percentage of assholes. Hard to find, and they usually pay worse, but it might keep you from painting entire groups of people with a broad brush. Seems like that’s what we’re trying to get away from these days.

The Orlando Magic have a long way and a couple of star players to go to be good, but it’s starting to feel like the 100 year rebuild is finally leading to something worth watching.

good for you jowles, get paid now…seven years at one spot is good…you can worry about all those work “intangibles” in another decade or so…compensation is definitely key at your stage in the workforce…

if anything, hopefully you were able to also shorten your commute…

who knows, maybe your “old” boss was simply (and clumsily) try to express how much he valued your contributions…

kind of weird though when your employer expects some undying devotion for simply collecting your earnings…fuck, you do work you get paid and benefitted – otherwise, why show up at all…

Instead of banning political talk, can we ban baseball talk??

***The Orlando Magic have a long way and a couple of star players to go to be good, but it’s starting to feel like the 100 year rebuild is finally leading to something worth watching.***

FYI, the Magic played in the NBA finals within the past 10 years. (“how’s it goink, Knicks?)

Z-man: To clarify, I don’t like seeing anyone banned. That said, there are certain posters who revel in being contrarian for its own sake, and who almost never back down no matter what evidence is presented against their opinions.

Here’s the problem.

This forum (like most) has attracted many like minded individuals on many issues. The sheer volume of support behind some common views makes it more difficult to fully appreciate what the other side is saying or thinking. That’s applicable to almost any group of like minded individuals on any subject.

Go to Sloan and start focusing on playoff experience, ability to handle pressure, team chemistry, clutch play, hot hand, and some less tangible qualities and you will run into a little resistance.

Go to TNT and talk to Shaq, Kenny and Charles about BPM and they’ll laugh at you.

The thing is, people from all over the spectrum are bringing things to the table. The idea to fit it all into a coherent and more correct overall view, but that doesn’t happen unless you actually listen and are open to what others are saying. If you gain confidence in what you already think because you are surrounded by like mind people, it’s hurting your chances to learn.

The biggest problem by far (I see this everywhere) is that the harder you try to change someone’s thinking, the more they dig in and the more closed minded they become. Then all is lost.

There must be a way to lead a mule to water and make him think it was his idea. I just don’t know what it is or how to do it unless you are aware of it in yourself and actively battle it.

Sorry Jowles but I think you’re wrong here. First, almost every suite of bosses will say, “be grateful for what you’re offered.” That’s their hardline negotiating job, for better or worse (I’ll say worse). Right now most bosses by dint of age and experience (admittedly not earned in many cases) are of the boomer class, making them the hateful pricks. But I’ll guarantee you that 25-30 years from now your kid (or nephew or niece if you don’t breed) will be hearing the same thing from his/her own asshole of a boss, who’ll be um, your generation I’m guessing.

Second, it’s not just a ‘hot take;’ it can be considered age discrimination under the Federal Age Discrimination and Employment Act. I’m going to guess you’d be pretty disturbed by someone using derogatory, inflammatory or dismissive language against any particular gender, race, religion, national origin, disability or sexual orientation. So what makes ageism somehow okay?

When someone holds an essentially facist POV that the media is the worst scum on earth, there is no reason to listen to them any further, since this perverted world view is probably integrated into how they feel about everything else. I have no interest in respectfully listening to fascists explain why the scientific community has it all wrong about everything, whether it is about the science of basketball analytics, or of COVID-19, or of global warming, etc. It is so disingenuous to call the vast majority of posters here who don’t respect posters like you or bobn “like-minded” because there are significant political and philosophical differences between various individuals in that camp. But the typical reaction of ignorant naysayers is “all you libruls yadayada…” and that is the shit you’re trying to pull here. I’m not buying it.

Maybe Isaac should have just taken the fucking knee.

Karma, neh?

…age group.

You can’t just go around dismissing people for being a certain age. You dismiss them for saying things like, “In my day, I worked full-time at Burger King and put myself through school on $2.50 an hour. Why can’t you?” (My mom did this, except she didn’t malign anyone for not working hard enough to succeed, etc. She was, however, oblivious that her hourly wage at that Burger King, and later hair salon, came out to anywhere between $18-24/hr in today’s money. We didn’t even get into the difference in cost of tuition.)

Again, the phrase is an attack on a worldview first and foremost. It is not an attack for merely being old.

so goes the ohtani experiment…arm situation again…hmmmmm, maybe it’s time to take the hint – let the guy just bat…

“ so goes the ohtani experiment…arm situation again…hmmmmm, maybe it’s time to take the hint – let the guy just bat…”

I’m thinking high-leverage reliever/closer. I don’t think you can give up on the two-way experiment just yet, it’s too valuable if it works out and he’s clearly individually talented enough at both.

But yeah, doesn’t seem like SP1 and full time DH is sustainable.

Last post from me on this because I don’t want it to turn into two guys squabbling (ban me!).

Jowles you’re not wrong in the particulars of your argument, but I still think it’s myopic. I’m of a somewhat different generation than you, yet when I was 9 I used to sit on the curb with my best friend for hours talking about how the damn world was absolutely no question doomed — nuclear war, rivers burning, an endless litany (yeah I never got many dates). And it was those damn old guys who did it then, too. I guess in my case it was the silent generation, but before that it was the greatest generation, and before that the lost generation, and so on.

You say YOU’LL never be condescending to kids on their way up when you get old(er). But that’s my whole point. Calling it “okay Boomer” right now paints everyone born between 1945-1964 as being that way. When the kids of today start calling your generation out for all the bullshit ‘your’ group will do between now and then (and trust me it will not be pretty), you’ll be all “Hey, it wasn’t me! I even have a thread back in 2020 where I specifically say I’d never do that!” But you DID call out 73 million other people for the same thing.

Right. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion of how Mark Jackson morphed from one of the more joyful basketball players to watch to one of the more hateful announcers (and possibly people) around. (Hint to my point — it’s not a morph, it’s the same thing, seen from two different perspectives).

I guess that not having Mark Jackson hired as NYK coach is worth the price of listening to his tired schtick.

it was cool – jason tatum’s young son was one of those fans 🙂

I had expected to hear more player chatter on the court, but, they’ve totally drowned out the court sounds…

Man, Giannis had Korver wide open in the corner.

Budz got outcoached this game

thenoblefacehumper: The Rockets’ defense is underrated. They’re tiny, but have a lot of switchable guys and have made Giannis’ life as hard as humanly possible.

Agreed. Harden has improved on D and Westbrook’s intensity level is insane. He seems to be getting how good of a defender he can be. Speaking of which, Marcus Smart is really a menace out there.

Nice 1-11 game for TH2 (while getting torched for 30 by Booker). Definitely don’t miss that guy.

Trey Burke also came back to Earth

Ess I just looked at the box on that — TH2 missed a 27 ft 3pter with 2 seconds left but WTF KP taking a 62-ft 3pter with 5 second left? After a full time out? Anyone watch that? I’m presuming it’s not the world’s worst ATO…?

It’s a mistake. It was a long three, but not more than, like, 34 feet.

As a person born in 1958, I have no issue with the ok boomer moniker, my girls get a kick out of it. But be careful when making generalizations about how good boomers had it compared to later generations. Maybe it’s true in terms of job security and benefits, but the menu of options available to millenials/GenZ on so many fronts is exponentially greater. And not all boomers are equal. The advantages were mainly enjoyed by middle-class or above White, straight men. And even for them, the expectation for the vast majority was that you would get married in your late teens or early 20’s and work at a job that didn’t require more than a high school education, and was probably somewhere near where you grew up. Then there was this thing called the draft. Things like anxiety and depression, ADHD, autism spectrum, etc. were poorly understood and resulted in horrible stigmatization. Stuff like that gets swept under the rug.

Since this is a sports blog, just think of how today’s athletes have it compared to boomer generation athletes.

THCJ’s situation is more about his boss being a dick than a boomer. There were plenty of dick bosses back in the boomer days, including those from the greatest generation who would sneer at anyone who didn’t salute the flag and keep his hair short. Many were racist and sexist, and nearly all were homophobic.

What was considered to be middle class back then would feel like poverty today in so many regards.

abc/espn really need to do better with the fake crowd. Celtics/Blazers was a very entertaining game that I eventually had to mute because the crowd was drowning out even the announce team

Z-man:
Budz got outcoached this game

It’s shocking but probably true.

Giannis and Lopez did well against the small ball lineups, but I think the Rockets did a great job of stripping the ball when the Bucks went inside. The Bucks had 22 TOs. It seemed like a lot of them were strips inside the paint or going inside.

That matchup is no contest if they meet in the finals. The Bucks are not going to be that sloppy and blow games like that when they are in better form for the playoffs. But I doubt we’ll see that finals because Houston’s small ball is not going to get by the Lakers or any team that can punish them with a big man. They’ll have a huge edge with their 5 out spacing against teams that can’t punish them back, but the Bucks and LA can and will.

Mike D’ Antoni is a mad scientist. He needs 3tment.
Budz needs serious playoff adjustments.
Giannis needs Hakeem post moves to get the ring since his 3 is still raw.
And i need vacations.

things are never as bad at the doom and gloomers suggest

outstanding student loan debt currently stands around $1,500,000,000,000 but ok ________

So the Knicks had 2 wins less for the bubble and 2 wins more for the bottom of the east.
How do you call that ?
I call it: Stuck in the middle with… shit!

Still remember the moment a young(and not so smart as it seemed)man who was about 20yrs old was talking about a 50yrs old co-worker of ours calling him “old man” to me while i was 42yrs old.
It felt awkward, dividing and sad…

(That’s not directed against Jowles/ I understood his thinking/Just wanted to express my sadness on disrespectful behaviour)

Knew Your Nicks:
So the Knicks had 2 wins less for the bubble and 2 wins more for the bottom of the east.
How do you call that ?
I call it: Stuck in the middle with… shit!

@KYN, If I were still a member, I would certainly be nominating you for membership in the Friar’s Club. You have the rare gift of schtick
https://friarsclub.com/

@clashfan
According to historians Socrates lived somewhere close to the area where i live for 44yrs.
There’s definitely something in the water…Or the air…or the sun!

@Bo
Thanks man! I could use a little fun after all this sadness with the youths!!!

Coaches of the year come and go but the memories of Fizdale will stay forever.

Alot of talk last night about how the Bucks defensive philosophy of defending the paint at all times and allowing a ton of 3pters is going to doom them once again in the playoffs. It was pretty astonishing at the amount of wide open 3pters the Rockets were able to generate seemingly at will against the Bucks D.

interesting stuff going on out here in the PAC-12…this may just be the worm that turns on the ncaa:
https://theundefeated.com/features/pac-12-followed-the-money-and-found-a-movement/

“I’d care about the future but the absence of a nuclear war means climate change/student debt/ect is nothing to worry about” is a really bracing take. I’m totally convinced!

@BobbyMarks42
Remove Toronto (the favorite) from the equation and the hard part is identifying a team willing to spend good $$ (think 18-20M) on Fred VanVleet- Projected teams w/room- Atlanta, Charlotte, Detroit, Miami and New York. Might come down to the Raptors bidding against themselves.

What is the contract amount at which you’d be comfortable signing VanVleet as a free agent? Does a number exist, or would the loser’s tax make him not worth even considering?

geo:
4 years at an aav of $22 mil…start at 19, end at 24…

the chances of getting an impact point guard in the draft are just so rare…

i’m not sure what this means: would the loser’s tax make him not worth even considering?

I think that is right in the sweet spot but Toronto likely will pay to keep him…is Lowry near the end of his deal?

i’m not sure what this means: would the loser’s tax make him not worth even considering?

It means we’d have to overpay to get a good player — or even a mediocre FA — to sign here, because we’ve been so terrible for so long. See also every single contract we handed out last summer, the uninsured Amare max deal, etc. FVV is really good, would be our best point guard since at least Marbury (to revisit a recent conversation) and would probably do wonders for Mitch, RJ, and maybe some of our other prospects, while also not forcing us to reach for a PG in this weird draft. But is he worth $22 mil a year, or more?

But is he worth $22 mil a year, or more?

What are we gonna do with that $22M otherwise?

This past year we spent $23M on Bobby Portis and Elfrid Payton. There are a lot dumber ways to spend $22M than to give it to a decent point guard.

I don’t see us drafting below #8, and I don’t think Vassell gets picked in the top-8 under any circumstances. Not saying he doesn’t deserve to be. Some argue that guys like Wiseman and Okongwu are not top-10 worthy b/c of their diminished positional value in today’s NBA but I think they both go in the top 8. The other 6 are likely to be LaMelo (lock), Edwards (lock), Toppin (lock), Hayes (ugh, highly likely), Haliburton (likely) and Avdija (likely). I also think teams are going to take a long look at Okoro in the top-8. His motor is off the charts, so maybe some team thinks that his shot will come around (hopefully not us!)

Whatever number lets the Knicks have room for a max contract in 2021, that’s how much they should offer FVV. They’re pretty clearly not development focused, so the hopes are on Giannis or AD or someone being enticed, and FVV is the only available PG that could potentially set up the success necessary.

I hope they don’t offer anything though. Feel like Fred will be the kind of Knick that’ll be almost but not quite good enough and I won’t even be able to be mad about it because he’ll be playing smart and trying so hard.

‘Raptors-Heat is the first game with both the names and social messages on the backs of the jerseys.’

Thank goodness. Love the messages, but haven’t watched enough games lately to know all the players on all the teams by face (especially with these dirty glasses). And most announcers these days talk over the action about arcane strategies or not-so-clever repartee rather than any attempt at play-by-play such as “so-and-so drives the lane…”

I’m a big proponent of the “acquire assets” philosophy but if you’re going to spend on a free agent, a competent point guard is not a bad thing to spend on. It’s not like whatever marginal few millions of dollars here and there is going to be keeping us from a run at glory. In a vacuum FVV is not a guy I’d want to sign to a max contract but the Knicks’ decades-long suckitude is kind of a unique situation.

JK I disagree, because $20+million non-superstar PGs are just as often bad investments as good. There’s really nothing in his advanced stats that suggests he’s worth that kind of money.

I just think that for a team like ours, PG is a position we should continue to try to fill via the draft or low-level trade. You almost always overpay for RFAs, and why mess up a good cap situation on an overpay, especially in this buyer’s market? Let’s try to find FVV 2.0.

Z-Man, I agree– shelling out max or near-max contracts for non-elite players is not my style.

But the guard play on this team is just SO FUCKING SHITTY that it kills everybody’s development. Signing FVV probably wouldn’t be the most ideal, optimal thing this team could do but at least we wouldn’t be trying to play and develop players with a whole phalanx of point guards who have no hope of ever throwing the ball into the basket or creating any offense.

Wow, 37 points for Mike Porter Jr. Maybe we should’ve hired the Nuggets’ GM?

I’ve never seen a player over 7’0″ move like Bol does. Could have been a Knick, but we wouldn’t want to go waste any 2nd rounders. That would be very very not good!

d-mar:
FVV seems like one of those players who’s in an ideal situation with talented teammates and a very good coach, but when you shift him to being the best player on a team (like the Knicks) it’s not gonna work out too well for anyone.

I agree. He’s a good, smart player, but his value was in his low salary more than anything else. At $20 mil, there are only 12 PGs making that or more: Brogdan, Holiday, Russell, Lillard, Irving, Conley, Kemba, Lowry, Wall, Westbrook, Paul, Curry. I don’t think FVV fits in with that group, although you could make an argument he is similar to Brogdon @ exactly $20mill. Then there’s a group between $15-20 mill: Rozier (overpaid!), Dragic, Teague (overpaid), Rubio, Knight (ugh!), Bledsoe and Schroder. The top of that group seems more like the group where FVV belongs. So $18mil/4 years or $20 mill/3 years seems okay, but anything above that is probably too much.

FVV is a tough call in the low $20s, the absolute minimum it would take. One interesting wrinkle: this year in 900 mins with lowry he’s at 14.5 pts 5.7ast per 36 TS 50.6. In 800 mins without lowry he’s at 22.3 pts 8.0 ast TS 58.

Zion and Ja not exactly tearing it up tonight.

Give me my man RJ! (-:

for the crowd that is looking for some sort of near term wins then fvv is pretty appealing…. i’ve been on record before that finding a capable pg in FA is much easier than the draft since… as we have discovered ourselves… the draft can be a crapshoot on the pg front even with a good pedigree….. and in almost all cases it takes awhile for them to develop and come into their own….

fvv isn’t perfect…. he’s short and his penetrating ability is a bit lacking but he’s a good player…. and just like with randle it would be sort of a gamble…. when you’re shopping in the less than mega superstar tier you’re going to deal with imperfect players…. and there aren’t any mega superstars coming our way….

i am more in the christian wood camp now though especially given randle’s immense struggles this season….. but i wouldn’t be totally opposed to vanvleet… there are worse things you can do than give money to a young talent……

i will say though between killian hayes and kira lewis that if you want a pg in this draft you can absolutely come away with a very capable and likely foundational piece on that front…… you can throw in haliburton too who’s more in the ‘may work out may not’ camp…..

djphan:
for the crowd that is looking for some sort of near term wins then fvv is pretty appealing…. i’ve been on record before that finding a capable pg in FA is much easier than the draft since… as we have discovered ourselves… the draft can be a crapshoot on the pg front even with a good pedigree…..and in almost all cases it takes awhile for them to develop and come into their own….

fvv isn’t perfect…. he’s short and his penetrating ability is a bit lacking but he’s a good player…. and just like with randle it would be sort of a gamble…. when you’re shopping in the less than mega superstar tier you’re going to deal with imperfect players…. and there aren’t any mega superstars coming our way….

i am more in the christian wood camp now though especially given randle’s immense struggles this season…..but i wouldn’t be totally opposed to vanvleet… there are worse things you can do than give money to a young talent……

But we have the time right now to be patient. If the cap is around $100-110 mill, do you want to be tying up 1/5 or more of the cap in FVV? A guy with a 2.4 BPM, 1.9 VORP and .137 WS48? He’s not a high-assist guy and doesn’t get to the rim or to the line?

Wow, 37 points for Mike Porter Jr. Maybe we should’ve hired the Nuggets’ GM?

It would have been nice had they just named Arturas Karnisovas the Team President, like Chicago did. Instead, they got Leon Rose as President and he obviously liked Karnisovas, but who’s taking GM when another team is giving him President duties?

OMG they didn’t implode!!

oh wait, there’s still 2 more innnings?

Raven:
Dphan, help me out here. Why are two guys who are worse at overall shooting, 3pters, rebounds, assists, and turnovers “good choices,” while the guy who’s better than them at all those things is a “maybe, maybe not” for you? The “maybe” guy also has more length than the other two. At least Hayes weighs in at 215, so that’s something — but Lewis is 165 lbs!

People have been dinging him for his athleticism and ability to shoot off the dribble. In a normal draft that would probably be enough to drop him near the end of the top 10 but this draft is terrible and all the prospects have major bust potential except him. He’s got such a high floor I’d honestly take him 1st overall and there’s no way he should drop out of the top 5.

@djphan

Come on. Lonzo’s problems go way beyond not being able to shoot off the dribble. He shot 54% on FT this year which is the first time he’s shot over 50% as a pro.

If we take Hayes over Haliburton, you can bank on Z-man going postal on KB.

From the end of a Berman piece that’s otherwise about Scott Perry’s feelings regarding his new head coach:

Perry will run the draft, to be staged Oct. 16, and deserves heavy credit for tabbing RJ Barrett at No. 3 last June and plucking Mitchell Robinson in the second round at No. 36 in 2018. There was internal support to pass on Barrett and trade back for point guard Darius Garland, among others, to snare an extra pick.

The Robinson selection is so golden it partially makes up for Perry taking Kevin Knox at No. 9 over Mikal Bridges, Michael Porter Jr., Donovan Mitchell and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.

Perry has assembled seven first-round picks in the next four drafts with cap flexibility — all factors in Thibodeau’s decision to not wait for potential openings in Houston, Philly and Brooklyn.

While Thibodeau is the sensible candidate to rep the Knicks during lottery proceedings Aug. 20, make no mistake: This is still Perry’s draft.

djphan:
yea i get that… but it’s not like we have enough of a sample that halliburton isn’t gonna turn into that… i think he has less free throws than lonzo had in college…. and i’m pretty sure he’s gonna have to tweak his shooting motion…

True, he hasn’t taken as many FTs as Lonzo did but he’s still hit them at a higher rate than Lonzo: 77% vs 67%. And even if he does need to tweak his shooting motion it’s not like it’s totally broken like Lonzo who has the weirdest shooting motion in modern NBA history.

vincoug: True, he hasn’t taken as many FTs as Lonzo did but he’s still hit them at a higher rate than Lonzo: 77% vs 67%.And even if he does need to tweak his shooting motion it’s not like it’s totally broken like Lonzo who has the weirdest shooting motion in modern NBA history.

Obviously you missed the entire Matrix era…