Knicks Morning News (2018.08.09)

#30 for breakfast

https://youtu.be/_x3jfh0YwnI

Political talk on this blog is more optimistic than Knicks talk. Amazing!

I don’t think they should stretch Noah UNTIL they have a free agent target that wants to sign here and they need the cap space to get the deal done. Doing it before then has very little upside and imo is foolish. I realize part of our strategy is to form good relationships with players and agents so the Knicks become a more attractive destination for elite players in trades and free agency. To do that, sometimes maybe you can’t fully maximize self-interest. But I see no issue with starting Kanter (25 minutes), playing Noah off the bench (10-15 minutes) and slowly easing Robinson forward from around 10 minutes to the backup role and beyond as he’s ready. That would give Noah the playing time he wants. He can also help mentor Robinson defensively and the clock will keep ticking on his contact. The closer it gets to expiration the easier it will be to move him, stretch him, or buy him out later and cost us less.

I know that the preferred solution to the current suckitude is all-out tanking for the next 3 years. But if that solution is not on the table, then what?

I’m not advocating all-out tanking for three years. I think we should compete for a playoff spot in 2019-2020. But there are two things I don’t think:

1. I don’t think it’s prudent to sacrifice future cap space in order to compete for a playoff spot in 2019-20.

2. I don’t think we need to be absolutely determined to spend all available cap space on the best players who will take our money in the summer of 2019. There’s no guarantee that we’ll do that, but stretching Noah is an extremely strong indicator that we likely will.

And let’s be real, we’ve never seen the Knicks not do this. We treat cap space like it will blow up if you don’t use it to give out long-term deals the first moment it becomes available.

Unless I don’t understand the rules, the Knicks could just as easily wait to see if Kyrie actually wants to come here (and that his knees are in good shape) before stretching Noah. I’m straining to see the upside of doing it NOW as opposed to waiting and doing it when/if we actually need the cap space. Keeping him buys some time to see how things play out and could actually save us money depending on how things go. There’s zero downside unless you are worried about Noah causing trouble or that in his 50-60 games at 15 minutes per night he might actually win us 1-2 extra games more than Kornet.

Just thinking ahead…

What’s the earliest date upon which the Knicks will be able to waive/stretch Kyrie after he’s signed to a max deal and his knees crumble into dust?

What’s the earliest date upon which the Knicks will be able to waive/stretch Kyrie after he’s signed to a max deal and his knees crumble into dust?

I believe it’s 9/1/2023…or two months after he hoists the O’Brien trophy at MSG after doing a Willis Reed on one leg in game 7.

The only difference between waiving him on 9/1/2018 and waiving him on 6/30/2019 is that it frees him from the roster (to play for another team, and to allow somebody else to play for the Knicks).

My initial thought was this is an attempt to keep Noah’s agent happy and that’s probably true. The problem I have is we’ve heard this excuse for a lot of the Knicks’ stupidity and I don’t see any other teams around the league constantly shooting themselves in the foot for this purpose.

If we need a roster spot, Mudiay, Thomas, and Baker all obviously make more sense to cut.

Making zero cost or very low cost moves to build a nice-guy reputation with agents and players is not a bad idea. I’d pit waiving Troy in this category, just. Killing $7m in space for multiple years – when we just saw very good players picked up for less – is not zero or low cost.

As Hubert and others have said, Keeping him on the roster doesn’t cost us a shot at 2019 free agency. We didn’t amnesty Chauncey until Tyson committed to sign. This is the same – Noah has no say in being waived so you enter FA negotiations with a small list of players you think it’s worth stretching Noah for. You negotiate as if you have that space and if someone commits to taking it you do the stretch. Simple.

If the logic in waiving him isn’t to make clear right now to players and agents that our chequebook is open next summer, it can only be to avoid a locker room distraction or to create a roster spot. Of the former, bluntly, be better people managers. That’s not worth $7m per. If the latter, as @17 says, there are way more obvious/lower cost candidates.

My initial thought was this is an attempt to keep Noah’s agent happy

If the 4 year $76mm deal we gave his bum client didn’t already make him happy…

Every agent in the NBA should already be overjoyed with the Knicks. Noah’s, Baker’s, Hardaway’s, Lance’s, Lee’s, Afflalo’s, Amar’e’s, Melo’s,. How much happier do we need to make these guys?

I think maybe the point of doing it early is to just get rid of him and cut ties. Fizz might think he’d be a total asshole in the locker room and poison the kids’ heads. And I can kind of see that. I don’t think you can tell him to just stay home, wouldn’t the Union not be into that?

The NBA game has changed in the middle of his career. He went from all NBA first team and the reason why team was winning 60 games to you can’t be on the team anymore; It must be really frustrating for him; needs to fins one coach who still values the skills he has more the skills he doesn’t.

Noah is clearly FAR from the athlete he was when he was at his best. He is noticeably slower and stiffer. Watch footage of him in his DPOY season then watch footage of him as a Knick– the difference is stark. He used to be able to coverage a tremendous amount of ground for a big man, and now he cannot do that at all. He is now immobile and as a result he is nowhere near the impact player on the defensive end he was in his glory days, which means he is a useless player.

I mean I guess he can still rebound and guard guys in the post, but the thing that made him special left his body a while ago.

@26

After we spent 3 days discussing, among other things, meritocracy, this is just hilarious.

It is pretty amazing that Dolan has survived this era without any serious scandle.

I get that stretching Noah seems dumb but its telling to me that even after Horns was fired that Noah is still persona non grata to this organization. If it was all just Horns being a bad coach then I feel like it would be easy to give him one more chance. But Noah missed over half of his first season, was suspended for PEDS and missed 20 games to start last year and then got into a fight with Horns. I think even though Perry and Mills fired Horns they didn’t think he was a bad person or an awful coach. Just not right for what this team is trying to do. Horns seemed relatively well liked by his players (if not well respected).

So I think while this might be with an eye for next summer and free agency, this is also as big of a culture move as far as anything else. You either have him on the team and play him and he takes minutes away from the youngsters or he sits on the bench and doesn’t play and that could recreate the same situation that led to him fighting Horns last year. Perry might see stretching him as the cost of getting rid of this mistake.

It would be one thing if Noah was still a beast on defense. But he’s not. So now he’s a negative. Veteran leadership can only go so far and we still have Lance and Lee for that.

@32, I’d happily give a up a 2021 lottery protected first round pick to anyone who will just absorb Noah & Lee.

I’d give up one second rounder to swap Noah for an expiring or two. I’d rather just put him on the inactive list if he won’t take a buyout. Correct me if I’m wrong: we can have more than 15 guys signed (ignoring the two-way contracts), we just can’t have more than 15 on the active roster.

If we don’t stretch him or buy him out there’s no reason to give Noah minutes. It’s dumber than giving Lance minutes, at least Lance is more professional.

But if we don’t give him minutes, he could end up being bad energy in the locker room. Development of our youth is so important and if we have an over the hill washed up former star demanding minutes he doesn’t deserve and being a sourpuss when he doesn’t get what he wants, that could create a toxic environment. He’s all ready done it once last year.

This is the dilemna the Knicks are facing.

What’s the difference btwn having him on the inactive list and exiling him? Like is there actually a difference bc it seems like semantics and I don’t think it would be a good look to just keep him inactive for an entire season. Is that really reasonable? How would that not create a super awkward and tense situation for everyone?

Yeah I don’t think they can really exile him the whole season when he isn’t hurt and he wants to play. I mean they CAN but I think the blow back from the players union would be too big of a risk for us.

I’d give up one second rounder to swap Noah for an expiring or two. I’d rather just put him on the inactive list if he won’t take a buyout. Correct me if I’m wrong: we can have more than 15 guys signed (ignoring the two-way contracts), we just can’t have more than 15 on the active roster.

I think you are wrong. Anyone on the inactive list is part of your fifteen man roster. And I don’t think a second rounder would do it. Denver had to give up a second round pick to move off of Chandler’s contract and Chandler is a useful player Philadelphia is expected to play. Noah would need at least a first rounder to move.

@ 42 – yeah except your murderer’s row of centers were all better than Noah last year or even the season before (before he got hurt and missed half the year). Noah can sort of defend the post and rebound now. That is it. He is washed up. Kanter and OQuinn are way better than him not to mention KP also played the C position and we had Willy too.

Noah is done. He’s been done for several years now. And even if he had anything left in the tank, he isn’t worth playing over any of our younger players.

Also, how do you know he was “being a good soldier.” For all we know he might have been complaining for weeks leading up to the incident. Again, I bring up the point that even after Horns got fired, Perry and Mills seem to have no interest in trying to reintegrate him into the team. To me that is very telling.

Having Noah on the books for 6.5 million in 20-21 and 21-22 is bad but it’s not the end of the world. I would prefer if they just cut him and took the salary hit this year and next but I understand wanting the flexibility for next summer. I think keeping him is not an option at this point, the situation is toxic and he needs to be gone. If he needs to be gone then the options are moving him with an asset, stretch him after September 1st or waive him and let his contract come off in 2020. If those are the options stretching him is probably the best option because we don’t want to remove the option of making a move next summer and I believe we have to stretch him when we waive him, we can’t waive him now and stretch him later.

Noah is completely Done as a player.
Until of course the Knicks stretch his contract, he signs with the Lakers, and plays like an all star.

Wait for it…

The last time Joakim Noah was a good player was in 2014. Iggy Azalea was topping the charts and people were doing the Ice Bucket Challenge. It was a while ago.

No switching stretching.

She’s gotta have it = Spikes best movie

I don’t know how many of you heard Maggie Gray’s scathing anti-Dolan rant but she makes me wonder what kind of organization I’m supporting.

Someone please explain why the NBAPA would give a shit if we’re not violating any terms. Players don’t get to file grievances over lack of playing time.

They probably don’t give a shit about playing time. What they may give a shit about is a healthy player being told to stay away from the team for no real reason other than that the team doesn’t want to waive them just yet.

Grocer,
I looked it up, see the link below. An inactive player is simply a player on the full roster who doesn’t dress for a game. “Inactive” replaces what used to be “injured reserve”. There are some exceptions, but they are minor and don’t apply in this case.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q79

@ 42 – yeah except your murderer’s row of centers were all better than Noah last year or even the season before (before he got hurt and missed half the year). .

How would we know?

At various times he missed camp, was injured, was suspended for 20 games, told to leave, and then never played last year. As a Knick, he’s literally probably had 10 games where he was healthy, in game shape, and given minutes. He was pretty good in those 10 games.

All the issues he’s had made the signing a predictable debacle, but that’s not what we are discussing.

There’s literally no downside to keeping this guy around unless you are worried he’s going to take minutes from Kornet. Kornet is not even a NBA player. Robinson is going to get eased in regardless of whether Noah is here or not. Robinson has no idea how to play basketball yet. They aren’t going to throw him out there for 20-25 minutes a night behind Kanter right away.

You just listed all the reasons why Kanter, etc…were better than Noah last year.

“there’s literally no downside to keeping this guy around”

Except for the numerous reasons multiple posters have listed out multiple times.

Again. Horns got fired and yet Noah is still persona non grata to Mills and Perry. That should tell you something that it wasn’t just Horns being a shitty coach last year.

Look, Noah was an amazing player in his prime. And its sad to see this and it sucks we have to pay him so much money for so little production. But it is what it is at this point. There are bad options and worse options. Stretching him to open up cap space next summer, a roster spot now and free up minutes for young players is the best of the bad options available to us.

And yes, he’ll probably go to the Lakers and look decent and everyone will LOL Knicks but fuck em. We’re all about Zinger, Knox, Frank and the other young players being developed properly. For veteran leadership we still have Lance and Lee, who will still both probably play enough minutes to keep them happy until they’re traded or they’re contracts end.

Look, Noah was an amazing player in his prime. And its sad to see this and it sucks we have to pay him so much money for so little production. But it is what it is at this point. There are bad options and worse options. Stretching him to open up cap space next summer, a roster spot now and free up minutes for young players is the best of the bad options available to us.

No, stretching him on September 1st is not the best option. The opportunity to stretch him will literally never go away. There is absolutely no downside to telling him to come in and compete for minutes. The beauty of that is if it all somehow devolves into an untenable shit show, then you can stretch him! Who knows? Maybe it works out okay and you gain the opportunity to take the wait-and-see approach next offseason.

If it’s about the roster spot that’s even stupider. Mudiay and Baker both make way more sense to cut if that’s the issue (I’m assuming LT’s 2019-2020 salary becomes fully guaranteed if he’s cut, otherwise he’d be in that group too).

Cutting Noah signals to me that this team is really looking into the QUICK HURRY UP GET SOME CAP SPACE SO WE CAN SIGN A BIG FREE AGENT strategy. I’m against this. The target seems to be Kyrie Irving, who is an injury risk who believes the earth is flat.

Is there anybody here who believes that Kyrie Irving, New York Knick, will be anything other than an injury-riddled albatross? He misses 20-30 games every year, and that is in his prime. Add another few years of wear and tear on his body and it’s pretty much a rock solid guarantee that you will have $40M of salary watching the game from the bench in an expensive suit by year three of this contract.

I really can’t believe that people are on board with this idea. Just let Noah’s stupid contract sit on the books, and let it come off, and if he pisses in the Gatorade or something send him home. The lack of patience with every single fucking thing surrounding this franchise is just unbelievable. WIN NOW! I KNOW WE’RE A 20-WIN TEAM BUT WE GOTTA WIN NOW! WE’LL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE TO BUY INTO THE DECLINE PHASE OF A PERENNIALLY INJURED PLAYER, GOTTA STRIKE WHILE THIS IRON IS HOT!

Its not just about cap space, though. If it was they could simply wait until next summer when they think they have a possible free agent target and then cut and stretch him then. I know many people do not want to trust Mills and Perry quite yet but do we really think they have no idea that they could wait until next summer to stretch him and it would have the same cap implications?

This is about moving on from Noah and not having the distraction both in the locker room and in the media.

Kyrie’s belief that the earth is flat has no impact on his ability to play basketball.

And if you believe in any sort of organized religion whatsoever, then you have no right to make fun of someone for believing the earth is flat. I mean, really…jesus came back from the dead and is the son of god and could heal people with his magical healing hands is an ok thing to believe in but believing the earth is flat makes someone crazy?

Both are equally crazy. If you believe in christianity, islam, horoscopes, the idea that “everything happens for a reason”, etc…then you are just as deluded as somoene who believes the earth is flat. At least the flat earther is basing their belief on their own two eyes and what they see and experience. They’ve never been to space so how do they know that the earth is round?

I don’t believe Kyrie’s “flat earthier” BS makes him crazy. I believe that it makes him a fucking moron. He’s very good at basketball despite being a drooling idiot but who knows, maybe the fact that he’s a complete idiot might prove to be a negative in other unforeseen ways.

Dude seems like a prime Vaseline eating candidate to me.

Flatearthers are people too.

Signing Kyrie is going to work out so badly. It’s not just KTSD talking either.

It’s a positive that our free agent target du jour actually posted a WS/48 over .200 last year. But he seems a very volatile piece to build around given his injury track record, his age, and his somewhat checkered history of getting along with teammates.

It’s far from the worst idea we have ever had but trying a patient rebuild seems much the better option.

@ 72 – the downside is that he’s a distraction. The downside is that he will be unhappy and they know this because he was unhappy last year and he ended up punching the head coach. The downside is that there’s probably a D-League player they could sign for next to nothing that will be more productive than Noah.

I am not excusing it, but whatever happened occurred because the coach embarrassed and disrespected him. He and Willy were frustrated about playing time. You simply DO NOT tell a a former DPOY and MVP vote getting veteran who’s dying to play to get dressed and be ready and then pull him him out after just a few minutes in garbage time. It’s just a stupid thing to do unless you are trying to provoke him. Unlike, Willy, he was not in a position to ask for a trade. And second, he was probably still the best or 2nd best C we had at the time when healthy and in shape. They just refused to play him.

Half the people that are in favor of buying him out are afraid he might win us a few extra games which will be bad for the tank (he won’t in limited games and minutes) and the other half think he’s totally washed up and wasting a roster spot (which would make him good for the tank if it actually did matter). So which is it?

The only somewhat reasonable view is that he’d take minutes away from Robinson. IMO, he won’t. I do not believe they are going to throw Robinson to the wolves for 20-25 minutes a night right from the start unless he makes dramatic progress in his knowledge of the game and strength between now and the start of the season. He’ll take minutes away from Kornet.

The downsides of the stretch are very obvious.

I don’t think the fact that Kyrie is not the sharpest knife in the draw is a good thing, but I don’t see it as an eliminating factor when he’s already demonstrated he is one of the best scorers in the league on a flat or round earth. Way more important are his legs.