Knicks Morning News (2018.05.23)

It’s awesome that both Conference Finals will go at LEAST six games. Very cool.

What an amazing win by the Rockets. Down double digits in the fourth on the road against the WARRIORS? Daaaaang.

But yeah, that last sequence by the Warriors, down two, was crazy bad.

Also – you be the coach – up two, 0.5 seconds left, you’re shooting one free throw left. Do you try to intentionally miss it to knock enough time off of the clock so that they can only attempt a miracle tap in for the tie? Or make it and then just hope they don’t make a three? I think I’d go for the intentional miss there.

I can’t believe the Rockets did it by playing D!!! GS is all running and shooting 3’s. When they fast breaks stopped, they really turned into a chucking 3 pt team.

I think I’d go for the intentional miss there.

As a coach, with this much on the line, that takes a lot of balls, but the right play.
Steph had a great look to tie the game.

When does the clock start? When it leaves the foul shooters hands, or when it makes contact with the rim/backboard? If the former, just throw the ball sky high.

The Rockets, including Harden, played some awesome defense, but both teams looked so tired and out of sorts at the end. It looked like they all ran a marathon and just wanted it to end, specially after that insane 3rd quarter sequence with their super short rotations.

My guess is that Paul was afraid of missing the rim altogether on the intentional miss, then it would be a violation, GSW ball with .5 to go down by 2. It’s a tough decision to make for sure. If Paul was 100% confident he could hit the rim, the intentional miss is for sure the right play as it literally ends the game right there.

Pretty shocked the rockets won that. Not even that they came back-they did that in the second quarter, but I thought GS would make a little run at the end to put them away.

I hate when the Warriors go away from their all time great offense and start chucking up shots. It also didn’t help that Iguodala was out for the game considering how important he is to their team. Houston is going to lose the next two games and they should be grateful the series went this far.

I really don’t like the Rockets. James Harden plays an ugly brand of basketball, Chris Paul is feisty to an annoying point, and Mike D’Antoni can’t coach. Houston did a good job of keeping themselves in the game, but GSW lost that game much more than Houston won it.

We’re supposed to be looking into hiring Jud Buechler from the Lakers’ staff. He’s been in charge of Laker player development the past few years and he coached the SL Lakers to the championship in Vegas. Seems like a solid hire.

I don’t think that’s a huge risk, but I’ve seen it happen a few times (to dumber NBA players than Chris Paul, but still).

I’ve seen it happen a decent amount of times, too. I’ve also seen players accidentally bank in a free throw when he was trying to miss. It seems surprisingly difficult to miss a free throw correctly!

I would just sink it. The risk of missing the rim altogether, running no time off the clock, and giving the other the team the ball at midcourt down 2 off a timeout is hard to quantify, but it seems high enough to want to avoid.

Went to sleep secure in the knowledge the Rockets would lose. Total shock this morning. Good for them.

Good for the NBA too because outside of Pacers-Cavs the playoffs have been mediocre.

I’m rooting for the Rockets, but I didn’t give them much of a chance to win the series. From here though (and with Iggy out) I’d say they are exactly where they wanted to be all season. Now it’s 2 out of 3 games and they are home twice. All it’s going to take is 2 hot nights out of 3 from beyond the arc to win. You can be the inferior team and come up with 2 hot nights out of 3 if you have a team like the Rockets.

I think these playoffs have been pretty fun. First round you had Jazz OKC which was a fund series. Bucks Celtics was pretty good too as was Cavs Pacers. And watching the Pelicans put in work in the first round was fun too. Second round was kind of a snooze fest but also it was fun to see LeBron melt down the raptors again. Pelicans and Jazz just happy to be in the second round. Philly Boston wasn’t as close as it could be. But I feel like a lot of times the second round is usually not close because the difference between the top 4 and the next 4 is usually pretty significant.

In a way, losing Iggy (or Draymond) is worse for the Warriors than losing Durant, Curry or Klay. One of those 3 guys goes down, the other 2 pick up the slack and take more shots. Iggy and Draymond are total X factors for that team, and their substitutes can’t even begin to replicate what they do.

I still think about how NBA history would have changed if Draymond didn’t get tossed for game 5 in the 2016 Finals. Warriors probably win the series, Durant probably stays in OKC and Lebron’s finals record is 2-5 instead of 3-4. Would have changed the conversation somewhat.

I know it’s hard to criticize Curry, but it seems when the Warriors are doing well, he starts playing stupidly careless basketball, trying to be too fancy. Last night, the Warriors were like 10 up and had possession when Curry just made some bad no-look pass that resulted in an uncontested layup for the Rockets. Everything went downhill from there.

Not to mention the Warriors’ vaunted passing game goes to hell under pressure. Curry and Durant become Melo-maniacs and totally ignore Thompson (who stops running and cutting knowing the ball is not coming back).

I still think the Warriors should win, but they will need to give 100% against a Houston team that has been much better than them the entire season.

i dont think intentionally missing is something that teams practice much…. and from a management standpoint you shouldnt put your players in an unfamiliar position especially at a crucial juncture

From a management standpoint, shouldn’t you be practicing all different types of reasonable end of game scenarios? Intentionally missing the second free throw (when you’re down by more than one with little time left on the clock) comes up a few times every season, no?

im not sure if the nba defined how quick a timeout could be called either… is it even possible to grab a rebound and call timeout with .02 seconds? nba should clarify that like they do with the tucker rule…

They don’t, which is why you’d be able to get the timeout even though logically it would be impossible to seriously signal and be given the timeout in less than half a second.

From a management standpoint, shouldn’t you be practicing all different types of reasonable end of game scenarios? Intentionally missing the second free throw (when you’re down by more than one with little time left on the clock) comes up a few times every season.

It’s odd how long some things take to become standard practice. Eventually, every team will have set plays and drills to close out in that situation.

I’m enjoying the Cavs-Celtics series.
I see it as a privilege to watch the GOAT, likely at the end of his peak greatness. And Boston is young, fast and exciting.

@AdamZagoria
Knicks coach David Fizdale & PG @FrankLikina are flying to Boston today and are expected to be at Game 5 of the Cavs-Celtics, per league source. After returning from France, Ntilikina met Fizdale for the first time this week &the #Knicks had about 6 guys working out in Tarrytown.

It seems like Fizdale is taking this “good relationship with players” stuff very seriously.

I like it!!

“Everyone has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth.”
-Mike Tyson

I also like what I’m seeing/hearing but what Fizdale says/does now hardly matters in the long run. If he has shitty players or bad luck, he will lose and eventually get fired by the dumbest owner in the NBA.

You’re not rooting for the Celtics bet to pay off?

1. I don’t think it’s going to any more.

2. Have you ever bet on a team you’ve hated your whole life? It’s weird because you want to root for yourself, but it’s hard to actually bring yourself to cheer for them during a game. I find myself automatically pleased when the Cavs win and annoyed when the Celtics do. So yeah, I am actively rooting for LeBron during these games. We’ll see what happens tonight, though.

If Golden State loses…. can you imagine Durant on the 76ers?
No one’s even talking about that possibility.
he’d be perfect for them. Good luck scoring when Simmons, Durant, Covington, and Embiid are on the floor.

I see it as a privilege to watch the GOAT

Didn’t realize Jordan made a comeback

I thought Scottie Pippen’s comments nailed it on the head (with the notable exception of how he tries to pin LeBron down as a small forward; he should have added positional fluidity to one of the many differences between the two eras). They’ve been wildly misconstrued and taken out of context in the Hot Take Circus, so read them for yourself if you haven’t seen them in their entirety:

There’s really no comparison. Michael Jordan played in an era where the game was different. It was being refereed different than what LeBron is playing in. LeBron plays a different role than what Michael played as a player. In all fairness to Michael, he was never asked to do things that LeBron [does] for his team. He had a lesser role. And stastically that’s why you’re seeing LeBron’s numbers are far better than Michael Jordan’s numbers in terms of what he does throughout the whole game because we didn’t utilize Michael to do things that the Cavs utilize LeBron for. So the comparison is unfair, and they play different positions. And I know a lot of times we love answering that question because we want to hear the storylines behind it, but the truth of the matter is that it’s not a fair comparison to LeBron or Michael. One guy is considered a two guard and one guy is considered a small forward. They definitely are great in their era, they’re both the greatest in their era. But to say who is the greatest, we would never know that. In my eye, Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest basketball player. But Michael and LeBron should never be really compared. It’s almost like comparing Kareem to me. That wouldn’t be fair.””

I think deep down we all know it’s impossible to declare a GOAT. I bet 90% of the people who think Michael is the GOAT never even saw Russell or Wilt play.

The way I see the GOAT conversation is who you would take first in an all time draft to compete for the title.

The thing is are you drafting players at their peaks or are you taking longevity into consideration. The case could be made for Shaq if its just peaks or guys like Lebron or Kareem who were so good for so long.

We’ll see what happens tonight, though.

Please refrain from using the phrase “we’ll see what happens”. I hear it every day from our decisive, take charge commander-in-chief.

The thing that separated MJ from all of the rest, particularly a Chamberlain and even Lebron, was the fact the was a stone cold killer. I know its hard for people who didn’t watch him play during the late 1980s and 1990s to understand it, but there was no greater finisher in the history of professional sports than Jordan. He had an almost compulsive drive to dominate and defeat his opponents by whatever means was at his disposal. He was the meanest competitor I’ve ever seen. And I’ve never seen anything like it before or since in the game and probably never will.

If you’re drafting an all time team under today’s rules, you might take Steph Curry over Bill Russell.

I saw a little of Chamberlain and Russell at the end of their careers when I was just a kid and they already below their peak. I saw all of Kareem.

I would draft all 3 of them over Curry no matter what the rules are.

@45 Kobe was the closest to having that will to win since Jordan that I’ve seen. I am not a fan of either, but the truth is the truth.

For the “greatest team ever assembled with 4 future hall of famers” Golden State looked pretty discombobulated at the end of last night’s game. Got to give the Rockets credit for hanging in there, particularly on defense.

This is a series now for sure, Warriors better not dick around or Houston may find a way.

That backpicks.com site covered 40 players in depth, and however silly the methodology, it’s helpful to read about each player and put them in context both in their era and regarding their role on the team. Curry isn’t in the top 20, and that seems right to me.

The 3-ball has totally changed the conversation about the GOAT. Who knows how great Jerry West would be in today’s era? Would Kareem be a stretch-5 today if he had grown up shooting 3’s in the playground like today’s centers? Would Isiah have been Steph Curry plus if he had grown up shooting 3’s in the playground like Steph did? Would Bill Russell have adapted his game to be a bigger, stronger, faster, smarter Draymond Green? Would Elgin Baylor and the Big O have been a shorter but mentally tougher and better shooting versions of LeBron?

It’s really hard to compare players across eras. I think that there’s enough video evidence to conclude that Wilt is the greatest athlete to ever play basketball and holds so many records that will never be broken so he gets my vote, but you could make strong arguments for MJ, LeBron, Kareem and Russell (sorry, Ntilikilla, if you did the research, you’d discover that Russell’s desire to win and killer instinct were even more legendary than MJ’s. For example, he NEVER would have retired in his prime like MJ did.) After those 5, there are some honorable mention guys….Oscar, Bird, Magic, Duncan…but I think you can never definitively determine who the GOAT is to everyone’s satisfaction.

All that said, if I’m picking teams for the Apocalypse game 7, I’m probably taking prime Michael Jordan.

The other thing about Russell is that he was not the most physically dominant player (even though a sensational athlete) and year after year got the better of Wilt except in 1967 when Wilt had great players around him. Russell was transcendent at making his teammates better, more so than any of the other 4 GOAT candidates. Only Magic and Bird compare in that regard. You think Kyrie begs off a championship caliber team with Russell, Bird or Magic in charge? I doubt it.

I might take Russell over MJ.

And another thing: people talk about how you can’t touch anyone today without a foul being called. You couldn’t touch Jordan in the 90’s, either. Fouls were definitely harder when he played, but Jordan always had his own whistle.

All that said, if I’m picking teams for the Apocalypse game 7, I’m probably taking prime Michael Jordan.

Let’s do this. Snake style. You took MJ 1. I’m taking LeBron and Magic 2 & 3. Picks 4 & 5 to you.

@61 Hakeem and Bird.

I think Jordan had the single season highest peak of any player, but Kareem and soon LeBron will beat him out in longevity. LeBron probably has the most productive 8 season stretch of basketball ever, and Kareem is by far the most productive over the longest period of time. My top 3 in order (assuming LeBron ages gracefully)

1. LeBron
2. Kareem
3. Jordan

I pick that order because I value long term productivity. But if it’s game 7 of the finals, I’m taking Jordan every time. Who you want for what purpose is to some extent a pragmatic issues/relative to ones interests and values re: basketball, so I don’t think there’s a correct answer here unless lebron is posting the same stat line at 40 that he is now.

I actually think Wilt is a bit overrated because of his gaudy counting stats. Most seasons he wasn’t amazingly efficient even for his time and he was very indifferent on defense while his style of offense was generally unjustifiedly ball stopping given his relative efficiency. Certainly an all timer, but maybe in the back half of the top 10 or early part of 10-15, to me.

I’ve actually been thinking about mental toughness in today’s game. I don’t believe that any player today compares to the mentally tough players of other eras. Is it the money, the fame, how our overall culture has changed? A lot of those players were straight up killers, and I don’t think today’s best players have experienced anything like it.

And previous generations didn’t have to worry about “managing their brand” 24/7. The level of scrutiny these guys face off the court now dwarfs anything that guys in the pre-social media era had to deal with. Those vague rumors about Jordan gambling would have been repeated ad infinitum on twitter and there would have almost certainly had to have been a very public accounting both from Jordan and the league office. Now the games are only one part of an entertainment package that is 24/7 365- it’s no wonder guys may not have the same level of focus game to game as they once did.

The fact that LeBron dominates to the same degree without MJ’s sociopathic tendencies is what makes LeBron superior, to me.

I am not certain I follow this train of logic. You are essentially penalizing a player for having a valuable trait over another player.

I would also like to add another point in the case for Jordan, the fact that he was a guard who played in the most physical era in NBA history where handchecking was a daily reality for players at his offensive position.

In terms of longevity those guys also didn’t have the resources and modern medicine that Lebron utilizes.

I would also like to add another point in the case for Jordan, the fact that he was a guard who played in the most physical era in NBA history where handchecking was a daily reality for players at his offensive position.

The 90s was not the most physical era in basketball. Not even close. The Knicks were very physical, precisely because Pat Riley thought the league had gone soft and could be roughed up. But they were by no means representative of the league. Indiana came along and imitated their style. That’s about it. The other top teams of the 90s were not physical at all.

You had the Mark Price/Brad Daugherty Cavs.
The LJ/Mourning/Kendall Gill Hornets
The Dominique Wilkins/Kevin Willis Hawks
The Derrick Coleman/Kenny Anderson/Drazen Petrovic Nets
Penny and Shaq
David Robinson with Sean Elliott & Vinny Del Negro
Kemp and Payton

Talented team. But the league cracked down on physical play, brawling, and hand checking DURING Jordan’s prime. They subsequently took it to new levels after he retired. But the 90s were nothing like the 80s when it came to physical play. And like I said above, he had a special whistle. Every year the dude shot as many or more free throws as all the centers who were getting killed in the post. Part of it was his driving, obviously. But part of it was the refs protected him and you couldn’t guard him like every other player.

Talented team. But the league cracked down on physical play, brawling, and hand checking DURING Jordan’s prime.

What? You do know that Jordan’s physical prime was in the 1988-1991 era when the Pistons played. The Bad Boy Pistons, which were the most physical team in NBA history. The same Bad Boy Pistons which invented the Jordan Rules to stop him.

Here is a better video on The Jordan Rules. I would love to see Lebron deal with this kind of stuff against a team with Lambier, Rodman, Dumars, Thomas, Dantley and Salley. Those Pistons-Bulls wars of the late 1980s early 1990s are what finalized Jordan’s conversion into a total cold-blooded killer on the court. He became meaner than they were to beat them. Its no contest. He was the GOAT.

I’m of the opinion that the illegal defense rules of the 80s and 90s at least balanced out or even outweighed the minus that handchecking was for Jordan vis a vis Lebron. One reason iso basketball (and undoubtedly Michael is the greatest iso scorer in NBA history) in the late 80s and 90s was so successful is because you couldn’t overload the strong side the way everyone does nowadays (thanks to Thibs), constantly giving Jordan one on one opportunities and making doubles much harder to accomplish because any kind of zone defense was completely illegal. Imagine what Lebron would do if you effectively weren’t allowed to double him. So I think the NBA rule changes argument cuts both ways, rather than just in Jordan’s favor. At the very least it’s difficult to quantify which would’ve affected who more in the counterfactual scenarios.

Hard to believe any era could have more glorified ISO ball than I’ve seen the last few years in the conference finals and Finals series. The GSW/HOU series has literally just been an ISOfest. Start switching your weakest defender willingly on every possession onto Jordan, the actual greatest ISO player of all time, and see how that strategy works out.

I still think Jordan’s best edges Lebron’s best but if I had to pick just one and I get to have his whole career I think I’d already take Lebron

Maybe it’s just me but I would always rather have the career with 6 titles, 6 Finals MVPs, 5 MVPs, a DPOY, 9 First Team all NBA defense selections and 10 scoring titles over all of LeBrons truly considerably achievements. I get that LeBron has racked up some truly astounding numbers but I don’t think anybody’s career could hit the consistent heights on an individual and team level Jordan’s did, at least not in the modern era.

If I’m ranking a top 5 it’d be
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. LeBron
4. Magic
5. Bird

With Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem pushing real hard.

On another note Sidney Moncrief must be the most criminally underrated player in NBA history. How is that guy NOT in the hall of fame?

LeBron wouldn’t have had the space to drive that he has in this modern era though either. It’s not surprise some of the greatest shot blockers and defensive big men in NBA history existed during MJs career. It’s not just about being bigger, stronger and faster. Just getting to the rim woulf have been a much harder task then because of how much more cluttered the lane was.

Forgetting “who’s the best” or what, just imagine if you just took modern Lebron and just teleported him to 1992 and just had him show up for work one day. Can you imagine how the players of 1992 would react to, in effect, Karl Malone running the court like a point and taking one less three per game than the NBA’s leader in threes per game in 1991-92 (Vernon Maxwell)?

I mean this not as any sort of statement about Lebron being better or whatever, just noting that that would be amazing, right?

Can you imagine how the players of 1992 would react to, in effect, Karl Malone running the court like a point and taking one less three per game than the NBA’s leader in threes per game in 1991-92 (Vernon Maxwell)?

If LeBron travelled back in time to 1992, that Cavs team would have won 75 games and been considered an all time great.

That team won 57 games already, with their top 3 minute guys all posting +.200 WS/48s (Price, Nance, and Daugherty). Adding James to that mix would have made them unbeatable, even by the Jordan Bulls and Riley Knicks.

I’ve read and seen alot of stuff about Golden St losing cause they didn’t have Iggy. He is their 5th best player, your’e telling me their big 4 of Curry/KD/Klay/Green isn’t enough without Iguodola?? GTFO

LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and Russell would have been immortals in any era. It’s possible that in the 1960’s, LeBron would have been forced by rigid HS and college coaches to be a back-to-the basket PF. He wouldn’t have grown up emulating Jordan’s every move to the point where he wore his number. Maybe in today’s game, Jordan is James Harden plus on offense and the best wing defender in the league.

I was too polite in my first post about James vs. Jordan.

I think James would wilt the moment Jordan dunked over him and stared him down. If James dunked over Jordan first, Jordan would come back at him and score 5 times in a row, stare him down, and James would wilt. Again, you can argue that James has the better overall package and stats, but they aren’t even close as players and competitors. Jordan was definitely better. Jordan took pleasure in crushing other all time great players and would have sent James away whimpering.

George Hill, Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson should be enough to win a playoff series for a guy like LeBron, who normally makes his teammates much better. I guess LeBron has lost his touch, and/or he’s checked out in Cleveland and decided he’s going to let Ty Lue coach (clearly a terrible idea).

I like this game tho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCRIB6ZBSA4
Imagine if this guy grew up with a 3-pt line and emulating LeBron James…

Incredible Wilt footage.