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In the hopes that the stupidity of yesterday can be hosed off and disposed of, there’s a very interesting Macri newsletter this morning looking at on/off numbers.
Lots of data, much of it suspect of course, but my initial take-away is that Precious isn’t as useful as we thought (those of us who thought he was useful, that is), while Deuce is WAY more important than we thought. Which is interesting, and weird.
I may post a couple of points once I look at it again, as my reading comprehension is a bit limited so far this morning.
Okay, a few clips (I’d link to it but it would expose me as being Angelina Jolie, aka Salt):
‘According to Cleaning the Glass, the defensive rating of the starters with Precious at center is actually worse than with KAT at center. The offense, meanwhile, falls off a cliff when Towns is off the court, as you might expect.
Digging a little deeper, lineups with Precious at the five are hemorrhaging shot attempts in the restricted area, allowing teams to take over 36 percent of their shots from this zone – more than the league-worst Pelicans’ defense. Part of this number stems from the inordinate amount of putback attempts that Achiuwa-at-center lineups are allowing: 22.4 percent of opponents’ missed shots result in a second opportunity, which ranks in the fifth percentile league-wide.
Because the rim is so accessible, Knick defenders have sagged off of shooters to an untenable degree, resulting in a 41.4 percent make rate from deep for opponents – far worse than the worst team in the league.’
and:
‘Towns, Bridges, Hart & McBride: 125.7 OFFRTG, 109.0 DEFRTG, +16.7 NET
As of yesterday morning, 218 four-man NBA combos had played at least as many minutes as the 193 minutes that this group has together. Of those 218 foursomes, only 10 had a better net rating than this group: three from Memphis, two from OKC, two from Boston, two from Denver, and one from Dallas.
Digging a little deeper into the numbers, neither of the two most prominent alignments of this group feature McBride as the nominal point guard. One group has Cam Payne running point (146 possessions), while the other has Brunson at lead guard (123 possessions). Both are running roughshod over opposing teams, outscoring them by over 20 points per 100 possessions according to Cleaning the Glass, albeit in different ways. Predictably, the Brunson units are scorching on offense (136.6 points per 100 possessions, yowza) while the Payne groups are better on D.’
Second-to-last bit:
‘Brunson, Hart & Achiuwa: 110.6 OFFRTG, 119.5 DEFRTG, -8.9 NET
This is easily the wildest data I found when researching today’s newsletter.
So far this season, there have been 34 three-man combos that have seen at least 200 minutes of court time for the Knicks. Of those, only two have a negative net rating: Brunson, Bridges and Achiuwa, who are barely getting outscored with a negative 0.9 net rating in 349 minutes, and Brunson, Hart and Achiuwa, who are getting torched by 8.9 points per 100.’
Last bit:
‘• Anunoby & McBride: 120.5 OFFRTG, 104.4 DEFRTG, +16.1 NET
Let’s end on a high note…
The only other two-man combos in the league that have a better net rating than OG & Deuce and have seen over 500 minutes of court time all play for Oklahoma City. That’s impressive in its own right, but its how they’re doing it that stands out.’
Macri goes on to show how damned good these two are, including on offense, with almost any combo of other Knicks. Suggests something, but I don’t want to trigger anyone…
Good morning, fellow Knickerbloggers!!!
Great stuff as always, Raven. Thanks for digging in so deeply on that data.
OKC 27-of-55 (49.1 percent) from 3-point range last night versus the Pelicans. Ouch. (New Orleans shot 10-of-27 from 3 [37.0 percent]).
Good stuff Raven. I want to believe in Precious but I really don’t. Just feels like a guy who will be perpetually underwhelming
It makes you appreciate a guy like Taj Gibson, who was able to make a solid impact in the same role.
That data matches the eye test. Precious definitely has some skills, but his inconsistency dooms his lineups. He’s big and athletic, but also chaotic. Deuce, however, is a terrier, who rarely is in the wrong place. He’s just too small – but I guess not, since his lineups seen to perform so well anyway. And his shot isn’t always on. But that’s why he’s a sixth-man type and not a starter.
I’m busy today so this will likely be my only post, but it’s important to address this.
There’s a logical fail in this and in any effort to explain the bad perimeter defense as resulting from the poor defense in the lane.
Whoever wrote this sentence treats at as an automatic law of nature — the word “because” — that bad lane defense is reacted to by perimeter guys by sloughing off to help, but it isn’t even close to that. (*)
The “because” has to be independently proven. No effort is made to do so. It’s weak analysis.
(*) It’s so far off that the causal arrow may be running in the exact opposite direction — it could be that the lane defense is bad because the perimeter guys are *not* sloughing off their men enough.
Whoever wrote this (Macri, I guess) left out …
Towns, Bridges, Hart, Anunoby — 880 minutes, DRat 113.4, net rating +5.1. DRat over 4 higher when Deuce is swapped out for OG.
Deuce is the bus driver. This isn’t the first year of this kind of lineup data.
‘Brunson, Hart & Achiuwa: 110.6 OFFRTG, 119.5 DEFRTG, -8.9 NET
This is easily the wildest data I found when researching today’s newsletter.
So far this season, there have been 34 three-man combos that have seen at least 200 minutes of court time for the Knicks. Of those, only two have a negative net rating: Brunson, Bridges and Achiuwa, who are barely getting outscored with a negative 0.9 net rating in 349 minutes, and Brunson, Hart and Achiuwa, who are getting torched by 8.9 points per 100.’
precious hater here and def do not think he is a good option at the 5, but also think these some of these are punishable on-off datamining crimes. it’s important to be frenemies with your plus-minus finds, like zman and noble, and not bffs like geo and donnie.
precious, josh and jalen also played together last year for 576 minutes last year, producing +9.33 per 100. for 357 of those minutes (more than this year!) they had neither mitch nor ihart in the game. they were +10.16 per 100 in those minutes. this season’s results are hurt by opponents shooting over 44% from 3. if they were at 37% the per 100 would be roughly flat.
it’s easy to just say that they give up open 3s because they don’t guard the rim but you have to move the line in and play with 4 guys to allow anywhere near that. think the jazz and their 35.7% or the wizards and their 36.8% 3p% allowed this year are just slamming their closeouts? knicks closest defender %s on 3s with precious at the 5 are very similar to their overall, though admittedly the measurements there can be dicey.
‘Towns, Bridges, Hart & McBride: 125.7 OFFRTG, 109.0 DEFRTG, +16.7 NET
As of yesterday morning, 218 four-man NBA combos had played at least as many minutes as the 193 minutes that this group has together. Of those 218 foursomes, only 10 had a better net rating than this group: three from Memphis, two from OKC, two from Boston, two from Denver, and one from Dallas.
Digging a little deeper into the numbers, neither of the two most prominent alignments of this group feature McBride as the nominal point guard. One group has Cam Payne running point (146 possessions), while the other has Brunson at lead guard (123 possessions). Both are running roughshod over opposing teams, outscoring them by over 20 points per 100 possessions according to Cleaning the Glass, albeit in different ways. Predictably, the Brunson units are scorching on offense (136.6 points per 100 possessions, yowza) while the Payne groups are better on D.’
same same. this is a 193 minute sample when they shot 45% from 3 and opponents shot 33.8%, which has a 0% chance of holding up out of sample. last year caleb martin, jimmy, kevin love and jaquez were +26.7 in 165 mins. bey, okongwu, jj and bogdan were +18 in 184 mins. CJ, nance, murphy and jones were +17 in 190 minutes. there are many more.
lord knows i’m not against fun with numbers but it’s important that fun is tightly chaperoned and wears long pants at all times. i know the common refrain here is “yes but this fits my prior” so it’s more useful. okay but just know that’s what the data criminals just before said and she was holding the murder weapon. it’s just an annoying fact that you need really large samples for this stuff to be useful (let alone “wild”), especially when you are intentionally sifting through it for gold.
Precious leads the Knicks in DEPM. No real indication he’s the one doing the letting down or that people are sucking on the perimeter because they have to cover for him.
As counseled several times, this idea that the perimeter defense is bad for some reason other than the perimeter players playing bad defense has to be dispensed with. It’s question begging and biased priors leading to that conclusion.
In the defense of the perimeter guys, it very well could be Thibs’s scheme. That certainly warrants a closer look. But beyond that, what you see is what you get. And what you see is no bueno.
Now I’m done for the day. Enjoy the conversation.
As usual, I don’t know wtf PT is saying beyond “You guys are idiots!” and that he’s probably correct.
Thanks, pt, as I said up top, ‘much of it suspect.’ Lies, damned lies, and statistics (including ‘…my only post’).
My only real priors are “Put Huk on Tatum!” (which thankfully wasn’t addressed here), and “Deuce is so damn cute” (which kind of was). I guess it’ll be interesting to see if any of these trends last the season…
On/off numbers from a little over half a season merit a “that’s interesting, something to watch moving forward” and nothing more. We’re 6.5 PTS/100 worse with Brunson on the floor this year, compared to +11.8 last year. All this to say, I don’t object to fun with numbers as long as we can all agree it’s just that at this point—fun with numbers.
I’m willing to believe there are schematic and/or personnel reasons for our poor opponent 3PT% ranking, I don’t think it’s drawn from a hat, but like, 38% can’t be real.
it’s like I’ve slipped in to an episode of as the world turns…
I guess to some extent there has always (at least since I’ve been lurking and then participating) a good bit of “back and forth” between posters…
you were right doogie, there does seem to have been some back and forth that I did not pick up on prior to your comment where you used the word ‘idiot’…
and you are also correct – fairness isn’t always the most important thing to me…I’m usually more concerned with moving forward…and, I don’t really like conflict…
maybe I’m in the wrong place…
Colonel Frank Fritz is a character in the movie American Beauty, played brilliantly by Chris Cooper…
a proud marine, dad, and husband…
he’s also an incredibly repressed homosexual homophobe…his wife is catatonic from drugs or whatever, his son estranged…
who knows why you truly dislike clarence to the degree you do…bigotry is just an ugly thing, that personally triggers me at times…
maybe I’m in the wrong place…
Do we really needs stats to know that when Precious (6′ 8″) is at C we are going to have some issues defending the paint and with offensive rebounding against some matchups?
Do we really need stats to know that when we play Precious at PF, we are going to have some incremetal spacing issues (let’s say relative to OG) because he can be left open away from the paint?
I like Precious, but he’s too undersized to be a C against many matchups, especially given the rest of our rotation players. And since spacing is so critical to our offensive efficiency, he’s not going to be optimal at PF unless we have 3 very good outside shooters on the court.
I have no idea what the data suggests so far (too lazy to study it), but for example I’m not a big fan of having Precious and Hart on the court at the same time. That gives the defense 2 players to potentially sag off to protect the paint. That can’t be good for our desire to get inside.
I don’t think basketball is so complex that you can’t intuit a lot of this if you uderstand the skills of the players and the general goals of an offense and defense.
Statistics are hard.
I had dinner with a friend last night, call him D.
D has a piece of another buddy, G, who has started playing online tourneys again. So far, G is running like 3400 Big Blinds below expectation over 120,000 hands. Which, in short, is a metric shit ton.
D can’t believe these numbers. He thinks there is no way to get that unlucky over 100K+ hands. He thinks G is probably playing bad. G btw gets coached by one of the best poker players in the world, who apparently looked at his numbers and just started chortling at how terribly unlucky they were.
I then pointed out to D that every year he makes a Super Bowl with another friend, N. N gets to select whichever team he wants and D takes the other side.
N selected the wrong team the first six years. Then he won last year. We were all shocked honestly. Then this year he got back on the horse and picked the Chiefs. Losing 7 of 8 coin flips is going to happen a solid 3% of the time. Which isn’t nothing but hard to come back from over a lifetime of Super Bowls.
All to say in a poorly formulated and incoherent way, variance is fucking wild in the real world and a lot of people are never going to get their head around it.
I like to use something called the eye-test. It tells me that OG Anunoby is terrific on defense. Honestly, that’s the easiest way to go about it. Strongly recommend it to everyone.
I think the best use of the lineup data is to start with an intuitive assumption based on your basketball knowledge of offense and defense.
If the data supports it, stick with that view.
If the data does not support it, dig deeper and try to understand why.
If you understand why and think it’s noise stick with it.
If you do not understand it proceed with caution. You may have overlooked something.
There’s so much noise in short term data you can’t simpy dismiss basic basketball logic if the data doesn’t support your view so far, but if it does that should add confidence to the original view.
I was wondering if this was who you meant. The character’s name is Frank Fitts.
“Colonel Frank Fritz is a character in the movie American Beauty, played brilliantly by Chris Cooper…
a proud marine, dad, and husband…
he’s also an incredibly repressed homosexual homophobe…his wife is catatonic from drugs or whatever, his son estranged…”
I know and like American Beauty, geo, and I think Chris Cooper is generally very good in everything I’ve seen him in (also “Breach”), but I did not remember that that was his character’s name. I remembered the rest, however.
“who knows why you truly dislike clarence to the degree you do…bigotry is just an ugly thing, that personally triggers me at times…”
I’m among the least bigoted people you’d ever know. I don’t like Clarence because, in addition to always having to let us know where he currently is and what he is currently eating (this isn’t Facebook, and having to read about other people’s whereabouts and meals is one of many reasons why I do not have a Facebook account), he posts about his sexual escapades, who he runs into and is attracted to in great detail, farting and urinating in bathrooms, and other totally inappropriate topics. I don’t want to read about them here…….nor anywhere else, quite frankly. And now he’s taken to calling me stupid every now and then out of the blue and without provocation, so that doesn’t endear him to me any further.
“Colonel Frank Fritz is a character in the movie American Beauty, played brilliantly by Chris Cooper…
I was wondering if this was who you meant. The character’s name is Frank Fitts.”
Frank Fritz was on American Pickers, but as far as I know he wasn’t a colonel. 🙂
Well, you are stupid. Some of my favorite people are stupid but you’re not one of them. All I can muster today. Apologies to everyone, but whatever it is it’s a stupid thing. Definitely don’t get it wet and don’t get feed it after midnight. Apologies to all.
I haven’t done any work on it yet (too busy with family), but I’ve been wondering about that particular stat.
Intuitively, we know Brunson is an issue on defense.
I’ve been wondering if part of that is because last year Brunson’s defensive issues were mitigated by having I-Hart and Mitch behind him and this year his defensive issues are being exaggerated by having Towns behind him (-1+-1=-3 theory).
That doesn’t explain all of it because Towns is still a plus on/off. It may not even explain a lot of it, but I think it might explain some of it.
For example, Towns best 2-man combination (436 minutes) is with Payne.
The Knicks have no backup C. So when Towns is off the court it’s often a disaster but when Brunson is off the court, it’s less of a problem because Towns and Payne is enough scoring against the bench units.
I think we all suspected that the Towns/Brunson combo would be and has been an issue at times. To have that combo out there, you better have some good defenders at the other slots because if there’s a 3rd negative defender, all hell might break looose.
I’m watching the highlights from the Celts-Knicks game. The first fifteen Celtics’ scoring plays shown:
1) Tatum blows by KAT on the wing with a simple in-out dribble for an uncontested dunk.
2) KAT is late and ineffective in helping Bridges on a high screen set by Kornet, Tatum pulls up and hits a 3.
3) Brown isos against Brunson in the corner, Precious leaves Horford to help protect the rim, Brown finds Horford for a wide open 3.
4) Brown isos against Hart in the lane, pivots and drains a fadeaway 12-footer with no resistance. Pretty much a mouse in the house situation.
5) Celts in transition, 5-0n-4 because Hart is late to get back, White executes a simple dump off to Kornet trailing the play at the foul line, KAT is in good rim-protection position but lets Kornet go in for a dunk. Not that it mattered because both Tatum and Horford were wide open for corner-3’s. (Hart was a fucking disaster on both ends in the first half!)
6) White dribbles against Brunson above the break and Brown, guarded by Hart, sets a screen. (NOTICE: Both defenders are undersized for their matchup!) Brunson and Hart miscommunicate, leaving White enough room to pull up for a relatively uncontested look, the kind he makes all day.
7) Tatum just inside halfcourt with Mikal playing way off of him, Kornet sets a weak screen that Mikal foolishly runs into rather than going over, KAT switches but drops way off, Tatum pulls up for a wide-open 3 five feet behind the line and makes it. Score is 22-9 at this point.
8) Deuce is slow to contest a Pritchard 3 but is lucky that he missed. However, KAT, who is in perfect rebounding position with Queta behind him, doesn’t box out Queta who cuts right in front of him to steal the rebound and make a reverse layup over him.
9) Hart turns his back on Pritchard who runs across the court to the right corner and spots up for a wide-open 3 while Hart doesn’t even bother.
10) Hart does a good job of forcing Tatum into a fadeaway jumper (the kind he usually make) but Kornet taps out the rebound. Precious was frozen and it went right by him to Tatum at the 3-pt line. Tatum swings to a wide-open Pritchard who drains the uncontested straight on 3.
11) Prichard isos against Precious, walks him into the top of the key then steps back 2 steps for a lightly contested 3.
12) Tatum isos on Precious, breaks his ankles, hits the wide open 3.
13) Tatum isos on Hart above the 3pt line straight on, Queta comes up to set a high screen, Hart doesn’t even try to go over, KAT lays back and fake-contests as Tatum walks into a 3.
14) Brown isoed on Mikal straight away, Kornet sets a screen, Mikal runs into it, Precious switches but Pritchard screens him, Mikal loses Kornet who rolls, Brown hits him for the easy finish at the rim over Hart.
15) Deuce is caught in no-man’s land, leaving Horford wide open in the right corner. Celts swing the ball to Horford, who attacks Deuce’s woefully late close-out, Mikal has to leave Brown open at the foul line to help, Horford passes to a cutting Brown for a thunderous jam.
Seems like every one of these plays was the product of mediocre to terrible defense. Maybe the Celts miss a couple of those 3’s, but they seemed to get whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. Are these problems correctable? I invite all of you to watch and tell me what you think.
In looking at the game film (which I think is the only way to really assess defensive responsibility) it was clear to me that the issue was definitely not a scheme thing. On each play, at least one player either made a conscious decision that was suboptimal (meaning that there was a choice involved), or was caught with his pants down, or was simply overmatched/overwhelmed by the bigger/better offensive player. I’d be happy to hear a counterpoint on this, but that’s the way I saw it.
okay, terrible analogy, because I couldn’t even get the character’s name correct…
thanks for getting me straight pags, my mind is simply playing tricks on me again…
looks like at one point in making the movie there was an idea of expanding the characters of Frank and Barbara Fitts to give them more depth…
the movie definitely works great as is…
there are a lot of reasons to dislike folks…so so many…
yes doogie: bigoted people is exaxtly what was/has been on my mind…
I can be wrong though…I understand that I can always be wrong…
Minny never had a good defense with KAT playing the 5. But last year when he spent two thirds of his time at the 4, the Wolves were #1 on D. Then this year, he moves back to the 5 full time and the Knicks get worse on D. What a coincidence!
I respectfully decline
I think I probably overrated Hart’s defense at the start of the season when I thought OG, Mikal and Hart would be solid enough on the perimeter to mostly make up for Towns in the middle.
No one is going to stay in front all the time, make all the correct decisions, or have all good matchups defensively. Everyone gets beat or makes a mistake sometimes, but I think I may have have overrated Hart’s overall defense because of his tendency to make key hustle plays and steals.
We knew we would have issues on defesnse and obviously do.
I think the key is still going to be trying to get to a top 10 defense so teams like Boston and OKC that are much better defensively can’t also torch us on offense.
Calling Mitch.
Are you almost ready?
Can you play with Towns?
Will moving Hart to the bench and having you in the middle enhance the overall defense and strengthen the bench?
Can you stay healthy through the playoffs?
Knicks fan want to know!!!
I now have the image of E standing in front of the mirror getting his hair straight, while writing that post with some kind of talk to text app, while also intermittently eating breakfast and watching the news…
later on for lunch, showing up at the gym for a racquetball match, and olaying while still wearing a suit and dress shoes…
and then dictating a couple of memos during the match…
you are just making this all look too easy E 😊
I agree but my eyes also tell me that the impact of OG’s terrific defense is very easy to dilute. So we might be 4 points better with him on the floor, but we still suck at defense with him on the floor.
Z-man, the only quibble I have is those were lowlights, not highlights.
geo, I have been trying to ignore his posts because at best they are uninteresting and at worst they are detrimental to the KB experience. There is a rudeness that stems from an utter inability to read the room.
For example, no one else seems to care all that much that Clarence posts weird shit about food and sex and airport bathrooms. Not my cup of tea, but easy enough to blow by. And if they were truly out of line, I trust that a bunch of of the fine posters here would rise up to protest. Then we’d find out whether Clarence was capable of reading the room.
But the other guy just can’t handle it and feels obligated to respond to everything that is posted rather than just letting it go. He fans flames rather than extinguishing them. And everyone suffers from smoke inhalation as a result. Yet he doesn’t give a shit.
And then there’s the “I am respected and beloved outside of this blog!” and “I am among the least bigoted people you would ever know” stuff. We have no way to verify this, nor should we have to. The general feedback about this poster from this community is consistently negative, with few exceptions. Yet this poster feels like the community just doesn’t get how wonderful he is or how beloved he is every place else but here.
There’s a rudeness there that is incomprehensible. Either 1) the poster is clueless about how he is perceived in the world outside of this blot, where people politely despise him, or feel sorry for him, 2) the poster purposely acts differently on KB than in the world outside of KB, or 3) the person is surrounded by folks outside of this blog who dig his schtick and actually like it.
In any case, I will go back to ignoring him and letting others engage, although it would be better reading if no one ever responded to him, especially Clarence, who kind of trolls him to the detriment of the blog. I just think that most of us wish that the inane give-and-take would stop.
Z-Man, that ranks as one of the most depressing posts I can ever remember reading here.
The Boston game was truly an abject disaster via eye test alone (and score). I too will not go back to the tape. There have been a few games where the Knicks D actually shows up and the guys play on a string, and I’ve even seen Brunson throw himself around at times in recent games, or at least actively stay in front of his man. I don’t know if OG is the key that turns it on or not, but the effort with Boston (as described above) was really pathetic. Like you should be ashamed you make this much money bad.
Z-Man – Excellent post. And it’s blog not blot. 🙂
Sure, I’m stupid, but you just wrote “don’t get feed it after midnight.” That doesn’t even make any sense, just as it didn’t make any sense when you wrote “God your are stupid” You said that you read and write for a living, but you don’t even know how to use commas or periods, or how to spell the word “you.” Idiot.
See, I think it’s especially important to watch and I wish everyone would. This is because certain folks (including Macri fwiw) are throwing around stats and accusations without looking at the plays themselves to see what is actually happening. And even the film raises as many questions as it answers. Was it a great screen or a bad navigation? Was it a bad decision by the player or the coach? Were the made shots 1) allowed by design and just unlucky variance, or 2) due to great offensive execution just beating good defense, or 3) due to a defensive breakdown that allowed shots that the coach didn’t want allowed?
At some point, one has to question whether the defensive personnel is even capable of consistently defending teams like the Celts and Thunder. It’s possible that you just run out of adjustments before they run out of counter-adjustments because their offensive personnel is just better than your defensive personnel.
The execution in the plays above is so poor that it’s hard to definitively answer that question. Next game will be more telling. But the trend does not look promising.
“I’m watching the highlights from the Celts-Knicks game.”
Were there any? 🙂
“Z-Man – Excellent post. And it’s blog not blot. 🙂”
Freudian slip.
“…….Clarence, who kind of trolls him to the detriment of the blog.”
Exactly.
“I just think that most of us wish that the inane give-and-take would stop.”
I in effect said the same thing last night. But if he’s going to continue to post every few hours and call me stupid for no reason, then it’s kind of on him.
OKC Starters – good on defense ?
Shai- Yes
Dort -`Yes
J Will- Yes
Chet- Yes
I Hart – Yes
Boston Starters- good on defense ?
Jrue- Yes
White- Yes
Brown- Yes
Tatum- Yes
KP or Horford- Yes
Both teams built with 2 way players. Knicks have a bad defender at PG and Center. Even if you add Mitch to the starting unit it won’t stop opposing teams from attacking these two on defense.
There’s not a single poster here that at the start of the season didn’t already know that we were going to have issues defensively, at backup C and with depth. Most of us (certainly me) thought we were going to have a top offense. That’s exactly what has happened.
We can probably do a better job on both sides with some adjustments, but I don’t think adjustments are going to change fundamental flaws with the team. There are always counter adjustments.
The good news is that some of the flaws might be eliminated (or at least reduced) with the addition of a healthy Mitch. So let’s see how that plays out. Everything changes when he’s back. We don’t know how or how much because we haven’t seen his current condition or how the new lineup combinations will work, but this is one thing we’ve been waiting for.
If Towns/Mitch is working well defensively and moving Hart to the bench is enhancing the depth of the 2nd unit, we are going to be that much closer to Boston, OKC , the Cavs and anyone else that emerges (like Denver, Dallas if the get healthy etc…)
Right.
They are both going to have a better defense than us.
But add a healthy Mitch and put Hart on the bench and I think our defense takes a bigger step up than our offense declines.
I also think the Knicks offense is better than OKC’s. So even if they have a better defense, they still have to score more than us against our improved defense with Mitch.
I don’t like to talk about Boston. Last year imo Boston was one of the greatest teams in NBA history. I think their bench may be even better this year. They haven’t peaked yet this year, but to beat that team we are all probably hoping that some combination of Horford and Holiday aging and KP being injury prone causes a decline and brings the rest of us closer to them to make beating them a little more likely. There’s nothing we can do about potentially facing a close to perfect team.
I hear that, Z-Man.
Even what he changed his name to is majorly, majorly inappropriate.
The Knicks are a good team. They’ve been one of the top offensive teams in the league all year long, and not for any gimmicky or unsustainable reasons. They’re an elite eFG% team that rarely turns the ball over, and are also an above average offensive rebounding team. That’s a good recipe for success. They’re fifth in the league in net rating, and 7th in SRS. Chalk for the Knicks is Conference Semis. Not bad.
But there is something kind of underwhelming and frustrating about where we seem to have arrived. For starters, we’ve already been at this level for a couple of seasons– good enough to win a round, but not really one of the top 4 teams in the league. Not good enough to win two rounds. It’s certainly possible the Knicks could go farther this year, but that would be surpassing expectations. Most likely one of Boston or Cleveland beats us before we get to the Conference Finals.
That would be okay, but then there’s this issue:
Jalen Brunson 28
Mikal Bridges 28
OG Anunoby 27
Josh Hart 29
Karl Anthony-Towns 29
These guys are all in their absolute primes. They’re more likely to decline than improve. We have no young players with breakout potential. We traded away every draft pick we could to assemble this team, and it’s a core that seems to have “Conference Semis” as a likely topping out point.
They’re going to have to break up this team to improve it. Leon made two big moves last year– one succeeded (KAT) and the other is looking like a mistake (Mikal). So as good as this team is, it feels a bit like treading water. This particular core of players is about as good as it’s gonna get. I find myself waiting to see if one of the core pieces can be moved to make the team more balanced and truly a contender for a title. Honestly, I don’t really see it happening, I just don’t think the front office has the chops.
As good as we are (and we are good), I find myself less interested in the games and more interested in baseball season starting. This isn’t really how I expected to feel about a solid, competitive team that has a lot of likable players on it. But it is what it is. There’s not a lot to dream on here. What you see is what you get. These are probably the salad days, so we should enjoy them I guess.
Irreverent humor is inherently just a lot more entertaining than stick-up-ass priggishness. For the record.
Oh, Doogie…
You were doing really well for awhile even if the random, Magic Johnson-esque posts about some random big’s pedestrian stat line every night were kind of boring.
But this one here is like watching Chris Moltisanti get right back on the drugs just when it seemed like he was turning his life around early in Season 6. Don’t get back on the drugs, Doogie. Think of your beautiful young family.
“Irreverent humor is inherently just a lot more entertaining than stick-up-ass priggishness. For the record.”
Entertainment is in the eye of the beholder. (But for the record, the box scores/chicken/shrimp thing was pretty damned funny. 🙂 )
JK47, you’ve arrived exactly where I was a couple of months ago when this team was assembled. This is exactly what I expected of us, and it’s why I’ve been so disappointed that this is what this build turned out to be. I know we’ve been terrible for most of the last 25 years but going all in for a 2nd round ceiling is disappointing. It just is.
I don’t post much about it these days because I’m over it. You’re correct that there is no realistic path from here unless the Nuggets’ owner sells to some asshole casino magnate that demands they swap Jokic for Towns for entirely non-basketball reason. Things like that don’t happen often, and for us they happen never.
My main hope for this era centers not around what we’ll do in the playoffs, but rather what we’ll do with this core. We need to look at how BOS and OKC built their juggernauts: by selling high on overrated/flawed/aging stars. Boston turned ancient KG/Pierce into Tatum/Brown but that likely isn’t repeatable. OKC turned Paul George into a dynasty by himself. If we sold Brunson/Towns/Bridges/Hart/OG to desperate contenders before they got too old, we could get a HUGE boatload of assets that could lead to the one thing we’ve never had in the history of our franchise: true elite talent. We’ve never had a top 5 NBA player in 80 years! We need to get one and until we do, nothing else really matters.
“They’re going to have to break up this team to improve it.”
Sort of agree. Brunson is obviously staying put. So one or more of KAT, Mikal, OG, or Hart likely have to go.
“Leon made two big moves last year– one succeeded (KAT) and the other is looking like a mistake (Mikal).”
I beg to differ here. KAT was a good value deal, but I would hardly look at it as a “success.” He’s been a disaster as a defensive 5, as anticipated. We paid too much for Mikal, but he is a legit 2-way player. So neither deal was a success as far as I’m concerned.
So with the two statements above in mind, my choice would be to look to trade KAT…although I don’t expect that there will be many takers for the price that would make a trade worthwhile. Next choice would be to capitalize on Hart’s career year the way that the Celts capitalized on guys like Brogdan, Timelord, and Smart.
But I wouldn’t advocate anything until I have more information, meaning the following:
-How do we look with a healthy Mitch?
-How fast will Huk develop?
-How do we fare in the playoffs with a reasonably healthy roster?
At full strength? They have only had Chet for 12 games this year, and he’s just about the perfect stretch big for their offense. While he’s not the offensive savant that KAT is (few bigs are), he’s got to add a couple points to their ORtg when he’s in form and able to play 30+ a game, especially taking minutes from players like Ousmane Dieng and Kenrich Williams.
The five best SRS seasons in league history belong to the ’71 Bucks, ’96 Bulls, ’72 Lakers, ’17 Warriors and ’97 Bulls, ranging from 11.92 to 10.70.
Playoff records:
’71 Bucks 12-2
’96 Bulls 15-3
’72 Lakers 12-3
’17 Warriors 16-1
’97 Bulls 15-4
Right now, the Thunder are sitting at 13.19 SRS, which is… absurd. And a lot of that is coming from depth.
If the Thunder don’t steamroll through the playoffs I will be shocked. They are so clearly the best team in the league, and that’s with a superstar who’s not playing superhero minutes (34 mpg, has only missed one game) yet looks like prime James Harden with a silky Jordanesque midrange game and exceptional defense, both in talent and effort. When you give SGA and Jalen Williams ~42 minutes a night and slot Chet in for 30, you’re going to see their net rating explode. And considering only one of the Cavs, Celts and Knicks can make it out of the East, they’re odds-on favorites to win the whole thing.
(What’s especially crazy to me is that the Thunder are just as exciting as they were when Durant and Westbrook were leading the charge, but the league has done a pisspoor job of marketing this new Big 3 that should be together for the next five years or more. It’s like the NBA can’t imagine itself without LeBron and Steph, even though SGA is just a pleasure to watch with the ball.
Plus they’re wholesome good fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PyYfATwgvw)
Patrick Ewing was never considered top 5 in his younger days? Or even Bernard King?
howdy z-man, thank you for your measured and well thought out words…
there is no doubt in my mind you are a about a million times more capable and able in dealing with conflict resolution than myself…just like the sun’ll come up in the east – i know you are good at it…you are still yourself, but the sense i get is that your public participation skills are really really good…
maybe no E though 😛
you know one of the most fun things clarence and i did sitting down together, naming off a bunch of other folks here at KB we would love to sit down and get to know a little better…
it was easy for us, we already had lists in our head i think…
one thing that really sticks with me: i’ve enjoyed hearing and everyone sharing their knicks’ fan allegiance story here at KB…
hearing it in person though – is next level, truly…clarence’s story was moving, because it moves him still…
a lot of you have a very similar story, i love hearing them…i am becoming more motivated to hear those stories in person…
i’m super introverted, and connect really well with other introverts (a lot of them read, extensively) – but what excites me is the idea of other introverts whom can perform so smoothly and wonderfully in public…
not easy, like being a warrior mathematician poet…
Hadn’t realized their SRS was quite that high. That undermines my confidence that they’re vulnerable without another creator beside Shai. Hmmm.
Either way, as said many times, there’s Boston, OKC, and Cleveland, and then there’s everyone else.
Hey Jowles! Did Clarence’s new tag-line get your attention?
Yes, Presti has executed the most intelligent rebuild in the history of the league. He has put together all parts of the “win trades/hoard picks/draft well/sign FAs/manage the cap” puzzle in nearly flawless succession.
And it isn’t finished! He has so much trade capital, both across the roster and in draft capital, that he can outbid anyone for any player that comes on the market. For example, he certainly could have offered a better package than Nico got for Doncic without even missing any of the players going out…except that he probably doesn’t want Doncic because Shai is already a better alpha and Doncic would not be a great fit.
In that sense, he is virtually immune from the aprons. He can swap players out to stay under the aprons as necessary without damaging the roster. He can replace players via the draft. He can avoid the primadonna diva conundrum that players like Luca, Harden, Embiid, etc. bring.
I’m just glad that they’re in the WC. Good luck to the rest of the teams out there.
Watching it once was enough. I’m sure I’d see more of i studied it, but I wasn’t focused too much on individual matchups because, whatever your opinion about OG, he’s a lot bigger than Mikal, and having him on the court gives everyone else an easier assignment. (And Mitch, of course, though that may never happen.) The thing that bothered me more was the poor awareness – it seemed obvious what was coming, and yet, for example, KAT was busy getting measured for a new suit instead of coming up to hedge on the screen, leading to a frantic closeout, which Tatum could read easily and take advantage of KAT’ s momentum to go right by him the other way. I said it in the thread, but it happened THREE TIMES. Like, I know you’re hurting, I know defense isn’t your strength, but you can’t see that shit coming so that at least you’re not doing The Kevin Knox® on one of the best individual players in the game? It seems like basic situational awareness, but whadda I know…
Thanks, geo. Would definitely like to hang with you some day, and with most posters as well. It’s a nice community we have here, even with the occasional flame wars. I think retirement has helped me to up my resistance to being triggered and triggering others…not entirely but hey, what fun would that be?
yeah, i’m with you rama…re-watching that just seems antithetical to Donnie’s: squeeze the most juice you can from being a fan, and toss the rest away like trash philosophy of fandom…
i’m with that now…
ha, for some reason answered a call listed as: wireless caller the other day…normally don’t, but…it was this pretty gentle sounding lady selling jehovah witness stuff…i told her i was already on another team 🙂
Mike K, Brian, Owen et al,
Just wondering what the threshold is for a poster like Doogie:
1. Troll that kills threads
2. Troll that kills threads and insults posters.
3. Weird infatuation with a poster where the interaction kills threads.
4. Realisation that this poster is off the spectrum.
I’m between 3 and 4 myself, but suggest between 2 and 3 is the ban hammer.
Just saying, but getting hard to comb through the great posters we have.
Ewing All-NBA 1st Team selections: 0
King may have been top 5 for about a season and a half.
If these guys were ever top 5 it was on the absolute fringe. We need someone on the level of Giannis, Luka, Jokic, SGA, etc. Someone who wins MVPs.
I am definitely out of the loop on the Clarence drama
someone give me a ptmilo-styled summary
Thank you to Jowles for normalizing my view that OKC is the greatest team in NBA history.
The important thing to keep in mind is that they’re only likely to get *better* from here. Their floor is above our ceiling and they’re farther from their ceiling than we are from ours.
It is possible that IF (with capital letters) Mitch is healthy, our best lineup is without KAT. The dynamics would be totally different, as we would return to the brickfest of yesteryear, with Mitch and Hart catching as many offensive rebounds as possible while Brunson is doing heroics. On the other hand, we could have a really tight defensive team, which can be demoralizing for the opponents. The kind of team we saw when we just traded for OG.
The problem I see is that I am not sure that you can have the players smoothly switch from one way of playing to the other without hiccups (during the same game, at least). And this is a wishful line of thinking that can lead to stupid decisions, such as trading Doncic for Davis. Fortunately for us, we have all personnel without any need for a trade, we just need A) healthy Mitch and B) rest KAT for a couple of weeks for some nagging injury (which will be good for him anyway)
As bad as our defense was in the first half vs. the C’s, I was just as alarmed about our offense. One thing you won’t see in the highlights is how effectively the Celts neutralized us (especially KAT but Brunson too…they both had 1 made FG in the first) by funneling us into the teeth of their defensive schemes. I believe that they had 4 blocked shots well before the end of the 1st Q, with at least two of them on Josh Hart going to the rim. Just looking through the play-by-play for the first Q, there were a bunch of terrible possessions that ended with a bad look from someone like Precious or Hart. Bridges was the only guy who could get decent looks and he missed 5 of them, not including a 52-ft fling.
Something becoming obvious- you can slow down KAT by putting a big wing on him. He can’t punish them, he doesn’t have the speed advantage and it hurts the offense.
I will also say it might not be a good idea to start Precious and Hart next to them either. Clamping the court for your two best players might not be smart.
Ewing was All-NBA 1st team for the 1989-90 season. He also finished All-NBA 2nd team 6 times and finished Top 5 in MVP voting 6 times although he never finished higher than 4th.
Considering how shitty this year has been so far, the chuckles I got from Clarance’s new name and clown-boy comparing Doogie to Moltosanti feel like gifts.
He’s completely redundant, and he does come with a defensive cost. If you’re going to start blowing through draft capital, it would be better to go after a Giannis (unlikely that the Bucks will deal him, but Doncic just got moved, so stranger things have literally happened) or an elite wing defender like Dyson Daniels (again, not likely to be available) or Amen Thompson (ut prius). Sengun (not available) would be redundant too.
Crazy thing is that their team is so stacked and full of upside that it’s hard to even see where they could improve. Obviously the ORtg isn’t ideal but that is in part because they rest their best players and no one is going to run the offense the way Shai or Jalen do. You could argue that Aaron Wiggins could use replacing, but with what available player?
Knicks vs. Thunder would be the most exciting possible outcome for the season. I want it bad.
Jalen Williams looks very comfortable running the offense, but yes, having another wing to run the offense would be great for them. You’d never want to see Jimmy Butler blow up their chemistry with his nonsense, but he would be ideal playing in the SGA-Williams-[Wing]-Chet-Hartenstein lineup. Tons of spacing and shot-creation, there.
please jowles, don’t tell me that you are happily living your life with out us
🙁
“It is possible that IF (with capital letters) Mitch is healthy, our best lineup is without KAT. The dynamics would be totally different, as we would return to the brickfest of yesteryear, with Mitch and Hart catching as many offensive rebounds as possible while Brunson is doing heroics. On the other hand, we could have a really tight defensive team, which can be demoralizing for the opponents. The kind of team we saw when we just traded for OG.”
I honestly think that OG is very good but not “demoralizing” as a defensive 4, nor is Hart as a defender at any position. And so long as Brunson is out there, there is a weak link, which puts a ceiling on what the defense can be.
That’s why I think we should be less concerned about being an excellent defense and more concerned with being good enough to win the possession battle against the better teams. I don’t think Mitch-OG-Hart-Mikal-Brunson does that, but we will definitely find out once Mitch gets back…I would expect Thibs to have that lineup as part of his stock rotation.
“2. Troll that kills threads and insults posters.”
Wait a second. It’s fine for Clarence to chime in once every few hours and call me stupid out of the blue and for no reason when I wasn’t even writing to him, but it’s not OK for me to respond to it? What the hell is that?
“Crazy thing is that their team is so stacked and full of upside that it’s hard to even see where they could improve.”
Yeah, and they aren’t really fully formed…Chet just got back and Caruso has been banged up…and they haven’t really explored all of the internal improvement available to them via their unbelievably deep and young bench. It just seems like they have a million ways to beat teams….go big, small, with shooting, with defense…they can just all kinds of throw waves at opponents.
But it all starts with Shai, who is the one indispensable player on their team. And that’s where I wonder if they can be as good in the playoffs when rotations tighten and the possession battle becomes paramount. Boston has guys to more than counter everyone in the Thunder rotation except Shai, and Tatum is 90% of Shai in a 110% bigger package.
With all due respect to Brunson and KAT, we just don’t have a 2-way analog for Shai.
I think I’m one of many who is skeptical the Thunder make the Finals. I’d put money down on the field.
The Bloody-Nine says:
God your are stupid
The Bloody-Nine says:
Well, you are stupid. Some of my favorite people are stupid but you’re not one of them. All I can muster today. Apologies to everyone, but whatever it is it’s a stupid thing. Definitely don’t get it wet and don’t get feed it after midnight. Apologies to all.
That’s not insulting other posters?
wow, they paid brandon ingram while he was hurt…
okay, so rating the worst three franchises in the east:
– hornets
– bulls
– raptors
honorable mention – wiz if they don’t land that number one pick…
“4. Realisation that this poster is off the spectrum.”
And FU with your armchair diagnosis. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. You’re also the one who questioned my Knicks fandom, and you didn’t know what the fuck you were talking about then, either.
Ingram or OG? OG making more per year.
“Wait a second. It’s fine for Clarence to chime in once every few hours and call me stupid out of the blue and for no reason”
It’s not fine for him to do that. However, he is saying out loud what most others are thinking…that your posting is often stupid, and it’s stupid often enough for you to be thought of as stupid. As I said above, I wish he wouldn’t do that and would just ignore your more stupid posts, but nowhere near as much as I wish you would just stop posting stupid shit.
Again, look in the mirror and read the room.
Ingram making OG money… slow on the draw.
“What the hell is that?”
It’s called restraint. It’s what adults do. Like when someone cuts you off, you don’t ram them with your car, you curse floridly at them under your breath and move on.
Yes, Clarence shouldn’t call you names (Stop it, Clarence! Bad dog!). You’ve shown you can restrain yourself by putting down your red pen, finally. Now stop giving us your endless opinion about another poster. We don’t care. Be the better dragon.
I gave my opinion on another poster because geo specifically brought it up on his own, so I answered him. Jeezus.
And what did I say that was stupid when Clarence called me stupid? All I’d been doing when he started this latest bullshit a couple of days ago was posting about basketball. I’m not seeing it.
“someone give me a ptmilo-styled summary”
sure, easy as “someone give me a picasso-styled drawing”
I absolutely don’t understand what Toronto is doing. They’re going to pay Barnes, RJ, and Ingram $110M+/year for the next two years and they’re 16-37.
didn’t even realize while posting above the contract and its average annual value…
wow, BI got paid up north…
why not just keep siakam?
I don’t write nothin’ down, so I’ll keep this short and sweet. You’re weak. You’re outta control. And you’ve become an embarrassment to yourself and everyone else.
“I absolutely don’t understand what Toronto is doing. They’re going to pay Barnes, RJ, Ingram and IQ $142M+/year for the next two years and they’re 16-37.”
fify
“It’s “Moltisanti.”
I don’t write nothin’ down, so I’ll keep this short and sweet. You’re weak. You’re outta control. And you’ve become an embarrassment to yourself and everyone else.”
Yeah, I also edited it out instead of posting it, so you’re wrong, too.
lol, at least Quick plays a different position. Barnes, RJ, and Ingram are all big wings who can’t shoot and want the ball in their hands.
Geo, that made me laugh, cuz it’s true. So I did the old bref comparison, and by gum they’re pretty much the same person (although I believe Siakam plays defense?). There was one stat that kind of jumped out, though. VORP has Ingram at 8.6; Siakam is at 19.2! Not even sure how that can be.
IQ has barely played. He’s starting to get up there in games but I don’t think he’s taken on a full minutes load yet.
This seems to be the quintessential Masai formula, get a bunch of plus players then… wait till someone trades him the next Kawhi I guess?
“lol, at least Quick plays a different position. Barnes, RJ, and Ingram are all big wings who can’t shoot and want the ball in their hands.”
True, missed that part! But we definitely agree on the wtf is Masai doing part. He’s been going all Mad Hatter lately.
I came to open up one morning and there you were with your head in the toilet. Your hair was in the toilet water. Disgusting!
eFG+, career
Brandon Ingram 96
Scottie Barnes 94
RJ Barrett 91
Immanuel Quickley 95
Good luck, guys. Go get ’em.
Uh huh.
Are they plus players? I like Barnes well enough, I love Quick but he hasn’t been able to stay health, and I think RJ and Ingram are terrible. They also won 48, 49, 56, 51, and 59 games the 5 seasons before the Kawhi trade. I can’t imagine this team winning even 40 games without a miracle.
I don’t think it’s retirement because you were already retired when you demanded I meet you at a bar near MSG so you can punch me in the face 😉
But I must say you seem like a different person these days, one I actually sometimes even like.
I’m definitely with you on this, Rama. I just don’t think Jalen and Chet are ready yet. But vulnerable just means vulnerable. It doesn’t mean someone can actually get the job done.
From NY Post
He had some issues with his knee last year I thought might have impacted his ability to finish at the rim at times. He’s also had some soreness this year. Maybe that’s hurting on defense a little???
Maybe Thibs should cut his minutes. doh!!!
https://nypost.com/2025/02/10/sports/jalen-brunson-draws-inspiration-from-eagles-super-bowl-2025-run/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
And FU with your armchair diagnosis. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about
Just a couple of hundred posts that suggest I am right. Send them to your “girlfriend “ and see what she thinks. oh wait…
I think a bunch of teams have hit the all-star break with very high SRS’ in the last 25 years and then cooled off down the stretch.
I struggle with the idea OKC is an all time great team. Especially with the way most of them lost last year.
When they win a title though that is exactly what people will say.
I don’t know, it’s not crazy. Shai is an MVP caliber player. They have real talent that runs 10 deep. They have a swarm of guys who can defend.
We will see. Maybe they win three in a row and it’s academic.
Their B-Ref page is kind of insane. They have 16 players above a WS/48 of .100!
Has that ever happened?
I think adding Chet will make them a better team, as did adding I-Hart, but I don’t think that combination adds a lot to their current offense or that their offense is quite as good as ours or Boston’s when/if the latter is firing on all cylinders. IMO it’s their defense and depth that is enabling them to cruise through the league right now.
As to their SRS, I think they are a great team, just not as good as Boston from last year. That team was epic.
Depth is a great thing, especially in the regular season because their bench will tend to destroy the other team’s bench, but that suggests the gap between their starters and other top team’s starters is probably a bit lower than the overall advanatge. Their depth advantage over everyone will contribute less to their results in the playoffs when rotations are shorter.
“I don’t think it’s retirement because you were already retired when you demanded I meet you at a bar near MSG so you can punch me in the face 😉”
Yeah, that was unfortunate…especially for the big Serb I thought was you.
“But I must say you seem like a different person these days, one I actually sometimes even like.”
I think it’s more that you are coming to terms with the fact that I am way more wise, more handsome, and more knowledgeable about NBA basketball than you ever will be. Let not your heart be troubled though, it’s a very high bar in each regard, and few exceed them. Just keep on trying to be the best dad you can be and it’s all good.
I guess you can steel man Toronto’s approach by arguing all of these guys are still young and can serve as non-toxic matching salary if an intriguing opportunity presents itself.
Personally, I find the approach to be way too cute compared to a more typical bottom-out. I mean even if, say, Giannis hits the market, is a package of Clank and/or Ingram and/or IQ, salary filler, and way fewer picks than OKC can offer really going to get it done? Even if it does…what exactly is the appeal of joining whatever team remains?
I also think Barnes is immensely talented, but he’s looking more Lamar Odom than LeBron, IMO. I definitely wouldn’t try to build an NBA team around him.
The Knicks are 5th in rating and 7th in SRS but I believe when healthy are probably the 4th best team in the league. That is not a 2nd round ceiling it’s more of a 2nd round floor. The problem is the 2nd best team in the NBA, maybe the best when motivated, is the 2 seed and will face the Knicks in the 2nd round instead of the 3rd. If Boston was the 1 seed I’d give the Knicks an almost 50/50 chance to make the conference finals. As it is, it will take quite a bit of luck and good bounces to beat Boston. But if we do, I think we have a solid chance at the finals.
Building a contender is hard and unless you have a top 3 player, like SGA, or get really lucky building your team, like Boston, simply getting into the top 4-5 is quite something and means that you have a shot every year even if you might not be the favorite.
I don’t think there is a viable way, short of some miracle (like Doncic to the Lakers or drafting a star like Jokic or Manu in the 2nd round), that the Knicks can become one of the best two teams in the league. That is okay. Considering we did not draft a superstar or have an already established top-5 player force his way to us by trade or free agency where we are is quite impressive.
Almost all title favorites have a top 3 player and a true MVP contender. We do not. Brunson is top 10 and Towns is top 15 but neither is even sniffing the top 3. Boston is actually an exception to this but they are one of the best 8-deep 2-way teams I’ve ever seen.
Mitch will help, as will hopefully another big wing on the buyout market, but there is nothing we can do this year or in the next couple years to pass OKC, or Boston (till age causes them to fade), or San Antonio (once Wemby is fully formed). That does not mean we should blow it up. We are clearly in the 2nd tier (3rd-6th best team – longshot contender) and will probably be able to stay there for the next 3-4 years. If we do we have a real chance at upsetting a better team at least once and making or even winning the finals.
Perfect is the enemy of good and we cannot let our pursuit of perfection get in the way of progress. We should not look to move any of our top 5 players unless it is for a clear upgrade. Towns isn’t a perfect player, neither is Brunson, but both are exceptional and it is unlikely we can upgrade either with a trade. OG, Bridges, and Hart are moveable if a star shakes loose but we shouldn’t be looking to move them either. We definitely should not blow it up.
doogie been done dirty by dirty neuro-atypical doesn’t like farting in public but public forum begs to differ; has been to niagra falls but not sure if it was the us or canada side to which beeks naturally replies no more goddamn jerky beef the partys over but forgot the less-talented but alive belushi was dressed like a gorilla and ended up in a michael cage who obvs stole the rebounding title from oak in 88
in short its time he rebrand as downton doogie brown and post the same dumb shit but with a british accent so we can call alec burks by his porn name frank fitts
If I had to take a wild guess, I think eventually either Ingram or RJ is going to be part of a deal (along with draft picks) for an upgrade. I think Masai is in some kind of asset accumulation mode where players are the assets (instead of just picks). At some point he’ll decide who stays and who goes and then a bigger move will occur that will be a more logical fit with what remains. I’m not sure he knows what he has yet given all the injuries and how young a couple of the players are.
I’m not nearly as doom-and-gloom as some others–being a top 5 or so team for 3-4 years is nothing to squeeze at and gives you as good a chance as many a past champion have had.
A debilitating Hart injury would end whatever prospects we might have this year, though, and given his frenetic play style I hate the idea of it moving forward too.
At the end of the day, this blog is a special place for me, and like geo said, I’m very thankful that it has carried on for so long, through thick and thin. I have definitely benefited via my participation here in ways that transcend Knicks basketball.
Backing off, especially in instances when enough long-time posters call out for it, is the least I can do to show my appreciation.
Donnie that was very hard to read but when I made it to the end I wheezed.
I think next year is our best year and then it declines. Possibly sharply.
We should be gearing up for one run with this team in ’26 and then trading KAT, Hart, and OG, while they’re hot so we can make a second run with Brunson.
THCJ,
Just to clarify my opinion on OKC, I bet several teams to win the NBA championship in varying sizes. My largest pre season win bet was OKC at +565 (+219 now). I have a small one on the Cavs at +4602 (+751 now) and a couple of others. My biggest flub was the 76ers at +933 (+10138 now). I knew they had injury issues, but this season has been ridiculous (kind of like my Memphis bet from last year) that has been somewhat vindicated this year when healthier. I still think they are not impossible if they sneak into the playin and are 100% (seems very unlikely given Embiid is a mess)
This post is aimed at no one and for everyone.
It would be better if we all just ignored posts that annoy us and even ignore pointed and personal attacks. Arguing about who started what, and who is to blame, and who is or isn’t annoying on a online forum is not only a bad look but ultimately pointless.
It’s like arguing with the crazy guy on the corner with the Jesus sign. You can never win, because you can’t reason with unreasonable people, and to everyone walking by you look just as crazy and irrational as the lunatic you are are arguing with.
If we ignore problematic posts, or posts that annoy us there will be less of those posts. Have faith that if someone truly steps over the line there are people here that will step in if need be. Let Mike and the moderators do their job.
We do not need YOU (if you think I’m talking to you I probably am) to step in.
“doogie been done dirty by dirty neuro-atypical doesn’t like farting in public but public forum begs to differ; has been to niagra falls but not sure if it was the us or canada side to which beeks naturally replies no more goddamn jerky beef the partys over but forgot the less-talented but alive belushi was dressed like a gorilla and ended up in a michael cage who obvs stole the rebounding title from oak in 88
in short its time he rebrand as downton doogie brown and post the same dumb shit but with a british accent so we can call alec burks by his porn name frank fitts”
Would fool most but to the discerning eye clearly a cheap imitation.
“Just a couple of hundred posts that suggest I am right. Send them to your “girlfriend “ and see what she thinks. oh wait…”
What the fuck are you insinuating by putting the word “girlfriend” in quotes, exactly? And how in the hell would I “send” posts to her? I’m not going to send her the URL and have her do searches on it…….for nothing at all. That doesn’t even make sense, as usual.
And I never said that I didn’t know which side of Niagara Falls I was on. You’re making shit up, too.
they seem to be assembling a recent vintage Knicks team but without the elite offensive rebounding you need to make it workable.
Flight just got cancelled while I’m at the terminal and this dapper older gent next to me turns to his lovely partner and says “You know, I’m pushing the limit on my brainwave right now.” I hear that.
As for Toronto, I think it is all about Barnes. Toronto is building like he is a future MVP candidate and if that was true the moves they are making start to make some sense. Simply bring talent into the organization around your superstar and have faith that his talent will help put it all together, and then move the players that don’t fit perfectly, since good player always have value.
The problem is Barnes, while good, in my opinion is not looking like a generational type talent. So their move out of the bottom seems premature and likely to lock them in as a 6-10 seed for the foreseeable future.
I happen to know you were high at my mother in law’s wake. You were talking non-stop for twenty minutes, nothing but gibberish.
Apropos of nothing, I just want to highlight this amazing line from ptmilo so we can remember why we come here. Bravo!
You may be right if the Mitch/Towns combo fails.
IMO, if you want to have a top defense and Brunson is the PG you need a defensive anchor in the paint and 3 other good defenders.
If KAT is the 5, you can’t have any defensive weaknesses like Brunson at PG or anywhere else and still be a top defensive team.
Towns/Brunson are a bad combo. We knew it before the season started. We can mitigate the problem with other good defenders, but we can’t be a top defensive team.
You can win a championship with Mikal Bridges as one of your starters (in fact having him is pretty good goal). So he’s solid here even if we overpaid to get him.
So let’s set aside whether we won any past deals or not and decide what the next BIG move might be IF the Mitch at the 5 and Towns at the 4 experiment fails.
I don’t think we are going to trade Brunson under almost any circumstances. It’s his team, his father is on the staff, the fans love him, the media loves him, the organization loves him etc…
That means if Mitch/Towns doesn’t work, we may need to trade Towns.
What we trade him for depends on why the combo failed and if Mitch holds up.
“I happen to know you were high at my mother in law’s wake. You were talking non-stop for twenty minutes, nothing but gibberish.”
Nah, that wasn’t me. You clearly have me confused with someone else entirely. That explains quite a lot. 🙂
Lakers are signing Alex Len and waiving Christian Wood. If the Lakers, absolutely desperate for big men, are cutting Wood loose, he’s not even worth considering when our 15th spot opens up.
Lakers are desperate…they gave Alex len a job….oops al scooped me
christian wood’s career didn’t age well…
In other words, he basically got it right
I think Wood is still hurt. If Wood gets healthy he might be a decent pickup for the playoffs.
Unfortunately, I imagine the Lakers think the same thing so there is probably a good chance he is a long way from healthy.
It’s amazing how fast the market for centers has changed in a few years. When the Knicks signed Hartenstein, the market for centers was not strong. Everyone wanted shooters instead of rim protectors. Of course, you did need a center but it wasn’t a position where you expected to spend a lot of money for a role player type of center. Now teams are having trouble finding centers at a reasonable price.
“Donnie that was very hard to read but when I made it to the end I wheezed.
In other words, he basically got it right”
Nuh uh. There were 13 statements in there, and only five of them could even be considered to be correct. 38.5 percent is a decent 3-point shooting percentage, but it’s a pretty poor amount of statements to get correct in a single forum post.
Pro tip – stranded or delayed at LAX? Go get the Italian at Crowns in terminal 4 next to gay 49.
Edit: gate
Oof.
I tried, man. I tried.
Fun is fun, but fact is, Doogie makes this site suck. Trade deadline to draft is my off-season here so I won’t say he chased me off, but when the most vocal guy says absolutely nothing of substance, there’s not much left in the wake.
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2025/1/23/24350229/nba-draft-2026-ranking-aj-dybantsa-cam-boozer-darryn-peterson take next season off and tank.
Bill Simmons recently compared Barnes to Iguodala when he was miscast as a #1 on Philly and I thought that made sense.
McCullar has a right calf strain
Crazy fact I just realized: Mitch is younger than all 5 Knicks starters.
Possibly the worst part of the Knicks being good is fucking TNT all the time…
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