Knicks Morning News (2024.12.17)

79 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.12.17)”

Butler auditioning for us with 35/19/10 tonight. Don’t fall for it.

No reason to — he doesn’t do the “winning things” OG does anyway.

No reason to — he doesn’t do the “winning things” OG does anyway.

I have a hard time fantasizing about trades with certain teams because I just imagine we’ll get burned. Miami is one of them. That said, I think there are hypothetical deals for Jimmy that make sense.

Oh, I just remembered the Thibs drama. Nvm.

Would I rather have Jimmy than Mikal for the next two years. Sure.

Is it wildly unrealistic to think he would end up here, either then or now? Sure.

Jimmy Butler makes no sense here, E. It would be like when the Suns added Bradley Beal.

Not that he’s available or attainable but the guy we need from the Heat is Bam Adebayo. We should have tunnel vision for two-way bigs. They don’t have to hit threes they just have to be useful on offense.

Two players I like if Mitch and Precious don’t work out would be Jalen Smith and Larry Nance Jr. I think they both are attainable. Any other thoughts?

Nance Jr seems to make a lot of sense. But I also fear he’ll have enough of a market that Mitch plus draft flotsam (2nds and/or our 2030 pick swap) won’t be enough.

I like those guys but do you really want to add them to the starting lineup? If the guy we get isn’t good enough to supplant either Hart or Bridges, we’re not really solving the problem because we’ll still have the same core 5 that can’t defend well enough playing the majority of the minutes.

“Don’t fall for one of the best players of his generation playing well. It’s an apparition.”

I mean, Kobe scored 60 points in his final game, too, but if he hadn’t been retiring we wouldn’t have wanted to chase his contract to have him on the Knicks the subsequent year, either.

I was thinking in terms of some 4/5 depth coming off the bench. I can’t think of anyone who could come in and start. John Collins maybe?

I can’t think of anyone who could come in and start.

Me, neither. Normally I can find a guy by scrolling the depth charts but this is tough. Bigs went out of fashion and now they’re back but supply hasn’t kept up with demand. It’s ironic and I feel for Thibs because he likely played a major role in increasing demand.

John Collins plays worse defense than KAT. At least KAT tries.

“Butler auditioning for us with 35/19/10 tonight. Don’t fall for it.”

Also, please note that this was in a loss. To the Pistons.

Charles Bassey. Jay Huff. Santi Aldama. Drew Eubanks. Jalen Smith. Jaxson Hayes. Jock Londale. Trey Lyles.

I think Leon needs to resist the temptation to add some scrub to the team just to do something. That’s not going to move the needle. When we had no C at all, a bunch of scrub names were thrown out as possibilties, but the only names out there that made long term sense were Kessler and Towns.

We should be doing the same thing now looking for a PF or another C.

We know what we need to take another step. He does’t have to be a star scorer. He has to be a high level defensive role player.

The idea is to develp a short list, hit the phone and start talking to teams. If we can’t pull something off now, maybe we can in the off season after everyone gets to see Mitch play and a couple of our young players get more time.

I don’t consider Smith or Nance scrubs. If you know of better players who may be available, I’d love to hear who they are.

Just gave ’em to you above. I don’t think these guys are scrubs, either. Aldama especially would be quite a get, as would Huff. But the other guys are perfectly cromulent, too.

Timberwolves seem to be getting their act together….

The term scrub was harsh. A more diplomatic way of putting it is we need someone who can increase the net rating of the starting lineup if they replaced Hart or Bridges. I don’t think any of the names mentioned would do that.

They would all be good players to have off the bench, but they’d come at a high price. I’d rather be patient with Dadiet and Hukporti, both of whom seem like they could solve the depth issue in time.

I’m not sure what you mean about “fit” since you allude practically every day to the need to move OG to a different position.

Butler is a great player that still has enough left in the tank to be an upgrade over OG for this season, but he’s at the age where he’s ready to start an accelerated decline and is often hurt.

On fit, he’s not a 3 point shooter. A major part of what we are doing here (it’s working) is having all outside shooters on the court to free Brunson/Towns to get to the basket and Bridges/OG/Hart to either get to the basket or cut.

Butler is the kind of player you want to generate space FOR so he can get to his favorite spots in mid range or at the basket. He’s not the kind of player that’s generates space for others.

IMO, it doesn’t make any sense to shorten our window 2 years or so for a player that is not a ideal fit and whose extra scoring we don’t need.

OG is the perfect fit on this team. He’s a high level switchable defender that can hit 3s and do enough else on offense to be the perfect 3a/3b option depending on the matchups.

I think he can play PF against some matchups, but sometimes we need more length and rebooubing. So what I’ve been saying is we need a starter quality role playing PF that can defend, rebound and hit 3s. Then we can switch OG to SF and Bridges to SG.

Shamet is playing ball again, we’re all good!

If we could get a bench big who shoots and can play the 4/5, it’d be worth it. Playing 5 out is a cheat code.

“Scrub” may have been harsh, but we need someome that legitimately moves the needle in the skills we need and is an overall plus player. The fact that we don’t need a scorer is a huge plus. That keeps the cost down. If almost all his value comes from rebounding and defending inside that’s fine as long as he can at least hit an open 3 often enough to have to be guarded.

I think the idea here is that we can start this player and possibly move Hart to the bench and gain length and interior defense without sacrificing much else Hart does because someone else can up those areas. Then Hart can still do his thing off the bench and play a lot of minutes when the matchup calls for it.

Jay Huff is our man.

This, obviously wasn’t Butler’s final game. As it is at the moment, he’s having one of the best statistical years ever for a 35+ player. But, sure, he’s just like swan song Kobe Bryant, who had played double the minutes of Jimmy Butler by this age. Got it.

LOL

I think the idea here is that we can start this player and possibly move Hart to the bench and gain length and interior defense without sacrificing much else Hart does because someone else can up those areas. Then Hart can still do his thing off the bench and play a lot of minutes when the matchup calls for it.

We could also just keep the starting lineup the same and just change the minutes distribution when we need more length, rebounding and interior defense. I really wish Mitch’s injury didn’t extend so long. It would really help if we could see what the team looks like with him coming off the bench and playing next to Towns at times.

Jimmy Butler has played 27,663 minutes. Kobe played 45,567 minutes through his age 35 season. Is that double now? Or are you counting playoff minutes, too?

“I really wish Mitch’s injury didn’t extend so long. It would really help if we could see what the team looks like with him coming off the bench and playing next to Towns at times.”

It would really help if iHart hadn’t bolted for the bag.

I am definitely Jay Huff curious, Doogie. Not enough minutes to figure out a fair price, though.

If Butler was on the Knicks he’d wind up being 3rd option behind Towns/Brunson, score similar to what OG/Bridges are scoring now assuming he replaced one of them, would have the ball in his hands less often and have fewer assists and his BPM would fall (because that’s a silly stat). He’d be the same exact player, but he’d be of less value to this Knicks team than he is to the Heat where they don’t have a true PG and absolutely need his playmaking and scoring. That doesn’t even count any impacts from less space in NY.

He would also not solve our length, interior defense or rebounding issues.

He’s a great player and he’d be an upgrade over either OG or Bridges, but it would not be worth the shorter window.

Jay Huff is 26 years old, still can’t earn steady rotation minutes and his on/off is a horror show. If I’ve ever seen him play, I can’t recall it, but at a glance he looks like a BPM star that must be a terrible overall defender and only a medicore rebounder.

Huff is averaging 2.5 blocks and 1 steal per 36 while shooting 40% from 3 in only 575 NBA minutes, almost all of which have come this year.

I remain curious.

Butler is still awesome, but we have a shot at finishing with one of the best offenses ever and we struggle on defense, so swapping OG for him would seem to be a mistake directionally. Not that we really even need to entertain the notion, but interesting enough thought experiment I guess.

Nance does strike me as a potentially intriguing buy low option. I wouldn’t feel great about swapping Mitch for him because Mitch’s upside is still much higher IMO, but if you assume we’re getting nothing from Mitch this year, you could do worse than a guy who can shoot a little and has some ball skills at the 4.

I’m somewhat partial to hoping for the best with Mitch, because there’s no player on the trade market with the potential impact of a healthy Mitchell Robinson. Seriously, a 15-20 minute (give or take depending on matchups) sprinkling of Mitchell Robinson is exactly what this team needs.

I’ll defer to the front office as to whether that’s feasible, as the bullish indicators on Mitch’s social media feeds are admittedly probably not the most reliable.

Hard pass on Butler at this stage for this roster. And it would have nothing to do with how he’s playing. Replacing a starter would affect the team chemistry on offense way too much. Our weakest 3pt shooter is shooting 40% from 3 with all the spacing. Let’s say you replace him with Butler who typically doesn’t shoot 3’s. Guess who else is thriving in the midrange? THE GUY YOU GAVE UP 5 PICKS FOR! And I don’t think Leon and Co want to trade Mikal for Butler, and neither does Riley. As far as the Knicks are concerned- Bridges, Hart, and Brunson know each other damn near inside and out, and they all can play. So that’s important irregardless of Bridges’ slow start. That leaves OG as the headliner for that trade. Both Butler and OG can do what the other can’t. Case in point- Butler can’t play the 4 for us. And that would mean we’d be moving 2/5 of the starting lineup to accommodate Butler. Not worth it with the way this team is built. I would think you’d do something like that to win a chip this season or next at the latest. Do we really wanna do that to this team, as opposed to building what just may be the 2nd best team in the East by season’s end? 3rd at worst, if Cleveland proves me wrong?

You seem much more interested in the factuality of the math than in the significance of the gap. For someone who is purportedly tiptoeing along the edge of the obligatory cliff, Jimmy Butler is actually a lot closer to Karl Anthony-Towns than to Kobe Bryant, whom you compared his recent performance to, when it comes to minutes played. As CarMax and Indiana Jones both agree, it’s not the years that matter, it’s the milage.

Jay Huff is ungettable–the Grizz are not letting him go after just signing him to a very team-friendly long-term deal.

Jalen Smith looks the part as a backup 5, but his defense isn’t good despite solid block numbers.

Jock would be good but is too useful as Steven Adams insurance for the Rockets to let him go.

Bassey is intriguing and I would kick the tires on him.

Likewise with Nance, who can and has played as an undersized 5.

The perfect low-cost get for us would, no joke, be Ben Simmons. He is a high level defender, ball-handler, and rebounder who can play the 5 on defense and wouldn’t clog the lane as hard as a Gobert-type because he can slash and handle the ball. He is personally insufferable but would be a great addition to this team and can lead the 2nd unit or anchor it as the 5. But he’s too expensive to acquire this season, since his contract is 40m. Perhaps we should look into him next year.

I think the options basically boil down to: Mitch and one of: rolling the dice on Robert Williams or acquiring someone stable but unremarkable like Nance or Bassey.

Also, I don’t think acquiring Butler is facially insane, but I think it causes more problems than it solves. He doesn’t really stretch the floor and has lost a step on D, which is where our problems are. I think he’s going to age gracefully, but there still is a high risk that his next contract blows up in the face of the franchise that signs him. Obviously the Towns/Butler thing would need to be vetted as well.

An idea: what about Kevin Love? He’s allegedly decent at defense now and could be our ageless Al Horford type. I don’t think he can play C for extended periods, but he’d be a great option to have at PF, and maybe spot minutes at C?

I know KAT and Thibs have made their peace, but I have a much harder time imagining KAT and Butler burying the hatchet, and that’s before you get into the many other questions and problems underlying a potential Butler trade. Much like Playoff Rotation Vildoza, it ain’t happening.

You seem much more interested in the factuality of the math than in the significance of the gap. For someone who is purportedly tiptoeing along the edge of the obligatory cliff, Jimmy Butler is actually a lot closer to Karl Anthony-Towns than to Kobe Bryant, whom you compared his recent performance to, when it comes to minutes played. As CarMax and Indiana Jones both agree, it’s not the years that matter, it’s the milage.

The reason his career minutes are low is because he’s constantly having knee and other injury issues and only plays 60 games per season hoping to have enough in the tank for a solid playoff run.

Mitch might be the answer, and I don’t think that we should rush him back. We are the 3 seed without him. KAT has shown he is mobile enough to play the 4. Even if Mitch doesn’t come back until after the all-star break, that is more than enough time to get ready for the playoffs.

He’s not a fit. Bad idea.

The other conversation about a 2-way big is more on point. Mitch is, as Noble says, exactly what this team needs…but will he ever play again? With those ankles, it’s hard to know what to expect. And so finding a very limited player who can guard bigs and shoot from outside should be the focus. I just didn’t think Precious is it.

I think the options basically boil down to: Mitch and one of: rolling the dice on Robert Williams or acquiring someone stable but unremarkable like Nance or Bassey.

The best option may be waiting until the off season to see what’s available then instead of doing something that makes no real long term sense and doesn’t move the needle much anyway.

I just didn’t think Precious is it.

I think the Precious hype was way overblown. I’ll grant that he’s still young enough to improve, but he’s too small to be a C except in emergencies and he doesn’t have enough of an outside shot to be a PF.

I think he can help us because we obviously need a ton of help at PF/C, but he should probably be more of a 3rd string guy than the backup, let alone starter.

Isn’t Jimmy Butler just the current version of Dejounte Murray or Paul George, AKA The Savior E Knows We Won’t Acquire? Jimmy Butler ain’t playing here, and yet we have now spent days talking about Jimmy Butler. Next topic.

Good news! We are now 15th on defense, technically putting us in the top half of the league to go with our 3rd best offense.

Both marks are inflated due to the terrible opposition we’ve played, but the dream of elite offense + average defense has for now been technically realized!

As CarMax and Indiana Jones both agree, it’s not the years that matter, it’s the milage.

the episode where donnie admits he’s more washed than zman’s lowball glass

Some good posting today.

After a quick spin around options, I’m thinking Nance Jr might actually be the guy. Seems like a clear upgrade on Precious, less explosive but more reliable and a better shooter from outside.

I remain intrigued by Time Lord, who would be obvious best option if he were healthy for the playoffs – still makes a huge impact on the game. But he and Mitch would be competing to see who could offer the most false hope.

Intrigued by Day’ron in Brooklyn too… Could he have iHart potential?

Back when we were trying to figure out how we were gonna pull off the Mikal trade, I mentioned Sharpe as someone we should try to target. He had an interesting combination of AST%, some amount of ability to make shots outside of Mitch range, and a decent FT% in 2023-2024 (he basically hasn’t played this year). I have no takes of my own about his defense, but the Nets were a lot better defensively with him on the floor last season, for whatever that’s worth.

Matt Ryan and Sims make the money work (Ryan can be traded on February 3rd), but I imagine we’d be very stringy with draft capital for a rental. If he’s not traded, he’s a potential buyout guy if the Nets have any interest in doing right by him–he’s glued to the bench in a contract year.

FWIW, Mitch for Nance straight up works in the Fanspo trade machine, I guess since we’d be taking back slightly less than we’re sending out. We would obviously have to send Atlanta other things, whether that’s one of the kids, 2nds, either/both of our two available pick swaps (2026/2030), or some combination thereof, since they have no need of Mitch even if he’s healthy. (It’s the same reason Nance can’t get off their bench.)

Totally forgot about Sharpe. He’d be an excellent buy-low candidate. Would we have any real advantage in re-signing him in the offseason with our cap situation?

If we traded for Sharpe, we’d have his full Bird Rights. But if he was waived and we signed him, I think we’d basically have nothing (120% of the minimum or his previous salary, which would be the minimum).

I really like Nance but I’d rather pray for Mitch to be healthy.

Onyeka is the more interesting play on Atlanta. I’d like to see Thibs have a chance to work with him.

Matt Ryan and Sims make the money work (Ryan can be traded on February 3rd), but I imagine we’d be very stringy with draft capital for a rental. If he’s not traded, he’s a potential buyout guy if the Nets have any interest in doing right by him–he’s glued to the bench in a contract year.

I don’t believe we can make this trade and still get to the mandated 14 player minimum. Ryan has a cap hit of $1,919,588. If we use Payne or Kolek at $2,087,519 with Sims we’d just make the apron after signing Shamet by ~$59,000, and that’s with waiting till 14 days after the trade deadline to maximize the proration.

Also, we are allowed to aggregate minimums if we send out less than 3 players. So there’s no need for the min + $1 deals used in the KAT trade, if anyone was wondering.

Totally forgot about Sharpe. He’d be an excellent buy-low candidate. Would we have any real advantage in re-signing him in the offseason with our cap situation?

We’d have full bird rights, it’d be a question of surpassing the 2nd apron, which we don’t necessarily need to do. For Sharpe, you almost certainly keep him and go over.

I like the idea of getting Jaylin Williams that someone floated the other day – the Thunder don’t need him and, being very short on size, actually might have a use for Sims as an emergency large human who can sort of play defense. Their salaries even match if I remember correctly, though I assume we’d have to pay a sweetener. This article talks him up as a player known mostly for defense in college despite his good shooting numbers: https://www.si.com/nba/draft/newsfeed/thunders-jaylin-williams-is-flying-under-the-radar

Also, Matt Ryan’s deal gets guaranteed on 1/10, so I assume we waive him for Shamet by then if there’s no setbacks.

you know, I almost got talked in to the jimmy butler notion…no, not really 😜

nance jr sounds good, the bigger mister williams over there in OKC would sound very interesting…

can’t imagine the cost would be cheap…more than deuce, like josh hart…

they don’t need any draft compensation, not that we have any, it would be for a player, a good one…

I’ve been lukewarm on Bellinger for a while but as a one year flyer (there’s a small buyout in 2026 the Cubs are paying half of, if we exercise it) it’s a solid move. He’s a good fielder in center and lord knows we need to protect Judge’s legs more than we’ve been able to the last few years.

Just can’t be the endgame.

larry nance is a likable basketball player but you guys are more washed than donnie if you think we should send mitch for him

The Yankees basically got Bellinger for free, or if you want to look at it another way, signed him for a 2/48 deal. Pure salary dump for the Cubs.

That’s about market rate. 1 WAR costs about $8M on the free agent market, and Bellinger can be reasonably projected to be a 3 WAR player.

I didn’t realize there was a buyout on the second year of the deal… that makes this an even better deal for the Yankees.

Nick Clowney? Chris Boucher?

Sorry. Noah Clowney. But definitely not Joakim Noah.

Just can’t be the endgame.

i’m hoping it’s not a polar bear – or am i?

i would sign pete alonso for spite and the chance he plays really well…

I didn’t think we should trade Mitch for Nance (unless the docs know his career is effectively over, in which case why would Atlanta do it), but some version of Precious plus player plus second round pick. Not sure if we can make that work financially.

We can’t get Nance with just Precious and a minimum salary or two. It would have to be Precious, Sims, and Deuce to work under the apron rules. Hard pass.

Wasn’t “Noah Clowney” Joachim’s nom de guerre?

I see Isaiah Hartenstein still does not miss floaters

I-Hart going for the MVP!

It would have to be Precious, Sims, and Deuce to work under the apron rules. Hard pass.

Deuce is a strangely difficult guy to trade. You either end up packaging him with someone else in a deal that you’d never want to make like this or you end up short when you try to trade for someone on a rookie deal (like Walker Kessler or Jeremy Sochan, two young players I like but I doubt Deuce can fetch).

Giannis really makes people look small

Yeah…not sure we’re a guarantee at 3 seed…bucks look solid…

I still don’t get why the stats from this game don’t count. Look how hard the guys are playing, it’s not like it’s an exhibition.

Not sure which one Giannis would notice less: a slight uptick to his BPM or a half million extra in his bank account.

I think the whole game doesn’t count, meaning that I don’t think that it counts in the regular season standings. It’s just kind of a one-off, the way they set it up. It’s for the $$$.

The Bucks play like they have been on such stage before while OKC plays like an inexperienced team. They missed like a million three pointers, they seem unable to find a way to score closer to the basket, and their coach seems unable to find an answer.

>As CarMax and Indiana Jones both agree, it’s not the years that matter, it’s the milage.

>>The reason his career minutes are low is because he’s constantly having knee and other injury issues and only plays 60 games per season hoping to have enough in the tank for a solid playoff run.

This. I may be missing some sarcasm here. But to argue the Jimmy is “less washed” than Kobe was because he has less minutes – seriously confuses causation w correlation. The low minutes, if anything prove that Butler is made of glass and would be a higher risk of decline, all else equal.

The report of the Bucks death may have been premature.

I knew they weren’t as bad as their terrible start, but they are almost looking contenderish. Giannis and Lillard are back to 100% and Lopez still has something left in the tank. If they can stay healthy and get anything out of Middleton they won’t be an easy out.

glad this game doesn’t count for the bucks…

just looked at their schedule, not a lot of tough games for them through the end of january…

Guys, Butler came into the league at 22, that’s why his minutes are low compared to Kobe and other teenaged rookies. It’s not because he’s made of glass. He’s had one surgery in 35 years. He plays a lot of minutes every game he plays in. He’s actually a safe bet to keep playing at a high [née “not washed”] level for a while, not the inverse.

“He plays a lot of minutes every game he plays in.”

Hmmmmmmm……. Already this season, he’s only played 25:49 against Orlando, 25:01 against Charlotte, 29:21 against the Lakers, and 29:26 against Toronto. That’s not counting the game in which he played 6:44 against Denver prior to missing the subsequent four games. He also missed one game against the Celtics for “rest.”

So in those four games (not counting the one where he got hurt), he averaged 27:24, including two games in which he averaged 25:25. Did he really “play a lot of minutes every game he plays in”?

Maybe Butler plays high “NBA average” minutes. Not every coach is Thibs

less than 30 is for scrub starters, role players, and guys who are injured a lot…

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