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Knicks Morning News (2024.12.12)

  • Trae Young, Hawks charge past Knicks, into NBA Cup semifinal – Hawaii Tribune-Herald
    12/12/2024 10:05:00
     
  • Jalen Brunson on Trae Young disrespecting the Knicks logo: “We should win the game if we don’t want him to do that” – Basketball Network
    12/12/2024 09:39:00
     
  • Tom Thibodeau hints one referee was a problem in Knicks? loss – New York Post
    12/12/2024 09:27:00
     
  • Jalen Brunson Has Blunt Response to Trae Young?s Trolling – Heavy.com
    12/12/2024 08:52:44
     
  • Knicks’ NBA Cup Dream Ends vs. Atlanta – Sports Illustrated
    12/12/2024 08:01:36
     
  • Atlanta Hawks vs. New York Knicks: live game updates, stats, play-by-play – Yahoo Sports
    12/12/2024 07:45:38
     
  • Raptors’ Scottie Barnes leaves game against Knicks with sprained right ankle – NBA.com
    12/12/2024 06:49:51
     
  • Edwards: The Knicks aren?t close to NBA championship contenders – The Athletic
    12/12/2024 07:07:33
     
  • Knicks’ Precious Achiuwa: Four defensive stats in loss – CBS Sports
    12/12/2024 07:24:17
     
  • Tom Thibodeau takes subtle shot at ref after Knicks NBA Cup loss to Hawks – ClutchPoints
    12/12/2024 07:16:21
     
  • Trae Young stings MSG again as Vegas-bound Hawks top Knicks – ABC7 New York
    12/12/2024 06:33:45
     
  • Trae Young acknowledges Shaquille O’Neal as he decimates the Knicks in New York once again – Sportskeeda
    12/12/2024 06:21:00
     
  • NBA Daily Recap, Dec.11 ? Hawks eliminate Knicks, Curry misses Vegas trip and more – The Playoffs
    12/12/2024 06:01:05
     
  • Trae Young helps Hawks roll over Knicks and into NBA Cup semifinals – The Atlanta Journal Constitution
    12/12/2024 05:35:09
     
  • Glass Blowers, Hawks Dominate Offensive Boards and Deny Knicks in NBA Cup Quarters – NY Sports Day
    12/12/2024 05:11:23
     
  • Shedeur Sanders Steals Spotlight With Viral Appearance at Knicks Game – Athlon Sports
    12/12/2024 04:40:39
     
  • Grading Knicks Players After Shocking 108-100 Loss To Hawks In The Emirates NBA Cup – Fadeaway World
    12/12/2024 05:33:52
     
  • Knicks? Tom Thibodeau takes jab at officials after Wednesday’s NBA Cup loss to Hawks – Yahoo Sports
    12/12/2024 04:51:00
     
  • Knicks’ Jalen Brunson reacts to Trae Young rolling dice on logo – ClutchPoints
    12/12/2024 04:41:00
     
  • Instant Analysis: What Went Wrong In Knicks’ Disastrous Loss To Hawks – Fadeaway World
    12/12/2024 04:41:25
     
  • 106 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2024.12.12)”

    Bad loss, the building was electric, we were facing one of our greatest enemy, the start was promising but after halftime we fall flat on our faces and never hinted at changing the tide.

    Offense:

    There’s some bad luck involved but we were beaten on most 50-50 balls, our hands were slippery and some players, Bridges in particular (could someone told him he’s not in Brooklyn anymore*?), made lazy passes that lead to turnovers.

    JB had an off night but this team should have enough firepower and talent to overcome nights when he’s well guarded (or the three ball doesn’t go in), instead we failed to adjust.
    I’m probably wrong but I remember only one play in which we targeted Young, outside of that we basically put his man (mostly Bridges) in the corner and let The Rat relax.
    OG had an off night too and KAT basically has no reputation with the refs, he gets mugged and mauled in a way that would get Embiid 20 FTs a night.

    Anyway we should have been up by 15 in the first half, with all the turnovers and missed FTs Atlanta’s comeback started from our mistakes.

    Defense:

    I think on balance the defense was a little better, we just can’t stop Trae in the 3rd when the game flipped and with KAT on the bench we were destroyed under the boards.

    It’s not that we can’t get stops, but the Hawks had 22 offensive rebounds (including 4 in a single offensive sequence, by 4 different players) and when you defend well but can’t corral the caroms you lose energy and gain frustration.

    We’re small.
    Precious is a good “dynamic” rebounder but a bad one “positionally” (he’s 6’8″ and unable to box-out my late grandmother), Hart is a fantastic rebounder for his size but he’s 6’4″, Bridges is soft as mashed potatoes, OG’s defensive assignment often took him away from the boards (and he’s not a good rebounder to start with), Sims is a leaper but not a “timely” leaper.
    KAT’s basically our only “size” right now and when he’s in foul trouble we’re more or less fucked (and Mitch’s return is far than ever).

    Overall:

    We went AWOL in the last 9:50 of the 3rd (29-10 Hawks, from +10 to -9) and from then on Josh’s bomb with 5:46 that cut the lead to 6 was the closest we were in the 4th.
    No fake comeback, no urgency, no momentum.

    After 25 games and coming after two iterations of a blue collar, overachieving, never quitting team, this group looks soft and soulless.

    I’m not saying they lack effort, just that they don’t scare (and don’t bully and don’t outwork) no one anymore.

    And our coach isn’t shining, I grade his year so far underwhelming.

    What’s next:

    On paper the next 9-games stretch could help us (2 games vs Orlando w/o Paolo and Franz, 2 against the abysmal Wizards, home games with Toronto, San Antonio and Utah, away at New Orleans, Minnesota the only real hurdle), we should go at least 7-2 but so far this team has been more Forrest Gump’s chocolate box than NBA top-6 so who knows?
    Anyway I’d love to wake up Jan 3rd and be 22-12 (or even better, 23-11). 😉

    It’s too early to panic but the fit between coach and roster feels odd.
    It’s too early to panic but the vibes are bad.
    It’s too early to panic but there’s a LOT of work to do.
    Or else…

    Let’s Go Knicks!

    * I’ve never been a Bridges stan, I’m wary of players who put up numbers on shitty team (I call it “The Tony Campbell effect”) and I’m not fond of the Villanova frat narrative (I don’t like JB & Josh podcast too) but I did remember him as a good glue guy and above average defender in Phoenix when they went to the Finals.
    My expectations about him weren’t sky high (despite the overpay) but especially on defense he’s been much much worse than I thought he would be.

    A few months after the trade the “we have the perfect wings to stop Boston’s Jays” hope looks more like an LSD induced dream.
    I’d be happy to be deadly wrong.

    This team is soft and refuses to gets it’s hands dirty. They are kind of a spoiled bunch.

    I don’t see this team as soft, but we do lack size and athleticism. If Toppin can play, they should send him out there. Precious doesn’t seem to be the answer at 4/5 and Bridges can’t do the job at the point of attack. We are good but not great. Improving from here will not be easy.

    Jalen Johnson should have been a Knick.

    Oof. Last night hurt. Last night was also the reason why I wanted the Knicks to draft Daniels. I don’t know how Brunson is gonna beat that strategy, but when teams try it- I’d like to see him look to set up his guys more. I remember Jordan doing that to us when we played tough defense on him. He’d rock us to sleep by setting guys up, then go off.

    I did come away super impressed by KAT’s energy last night. He’s clearly bought in on the Thibs way and is bringing that lunch pail mentality that us Knick fans love. Now that Bridges seems to have found his shot again, Brunson has 3 guys in the starting unit whom he can set up that are reliable shooters. Added bonus- Hart has shot really well this season too. Brunson’s smart, so I’m sure he’ll figure it out.

    The good news is that there is only one Dyson Daniels. I can’t think of anyone else who defends Brunson this well.

    I don’t see this team as soft, but we do lack size and athleticism. If Toppin can play, they should send him out there.

    They should have Dadiet available to use as a bigger wing or they can bring in Chuma or Warren and cut Ryan or play him. The Knicks have players they can use they just refuse to do it

    Well that sucked.

    Yesterday was a bad day for Knicks fans. The news about Mitch was not encouraging at all and then we get this ugly loss.

    This team does not know how to win if the shots aren’t falling. It wasn’t so much the defense…giving up 108 points isn’t that bad. But we were outhustled and outmuscled, especially on the boards.

    I’m not sure what the answer here is. Mitch will help but he’s not going to be back for awhile and who knows how many minutes he’ll actually be able to play. Not to mention the fact that he has zero offensive game and is a horrible free throw shooter. At this point he’s just going to be KAT’s back up, which means, what? No Precious? No Sims?

    I’m definitely coming around to the idea that what we need is a PF who is a good defender and rebounder and can shoot the occasional 3. Who that is, though, I don’t know.

    The KAT move was a great trade but damn, this Bridges trade is not looking good at all. He’s fine but nothing to write home about.

    I’m definitely coming around to the idea that what we need is a PF who is a good defender and rebounder and can shoot the occasional 3. Who that is, though, I don’t know

    It should be Precious when he gets his game legs back under him

    Didn’t watch the game because at some point I saw a 9:30p start time online and put that into my calendar.

    Looking at the box score alone, the difference in the game was rebounds and TO’s. Both teams shot like shit. Surprised we didn’t lose by more based on REB/TO differential.

    The 5 starters are very good individually, but at this point it’s almost obvious this team is poorly constructed.

    Bridges is not a very good POA defender.

    Brunson is a target against almost any good team.

    Towns is not a good interior defender.

    It’s OK to have a defensive leak, but we are like the Little Dutch Boy.

    On top of that, we are a weak rebounding team when Towns is off the court. Sims is not good enough to be the backup and Precious is also undersized at C. OG is a weak rebounder at PF. Hart is good for his position, but he’s not going to bang with bigger longer players and make up the gap.

    The most obvious solution is to selectively sacrifice offense and just play Mitch and Towns together when Mitch is back. We don’t necessarily have to start them together or even play them a ton of minutes together every night, but there are going to be times we have to. The problem there of course is that every few weeks Mitch’s return is delayed further and we have no idea what he’ll have left or how long he’ll last when he finally does come back.

    Absent a Mitch return to good form and positive result from that combo, imo Leon is going to have to make a major change to this roster for us to actually contend.

    I’m definitely coming around to the idea that what we need is a PF who is a good defender and rebounder and can shoot the occasional 3. Who that is, though, I don’t know.

    That’s the solution if the Towns/Mitch experiment does not work, but who we trade and who we target are both question marks.

    I like Pecious, but he’s not an outside shooter and I don’t see him as an especially good defender either. I’m glad he’s back because we needed the depth, but unless he improves he’s a bench player.

    Given the timetable of Mitch coming back in late January or early February, we may be looking at making some kind of move in the off season if Mitch doesn’t work out.

    I think that besides Mitch, we should be trying to pair KAT with Huk and maybe Sims at times.

    Can I just say FUCK Adam Silver and the NBA for not giving us an injury exception last year for Mitch.

    Honestly, Leon at this point should apply for it again.

    Yes, he came back for like 10 games last end of season but you cannot convince me that was wise of him to do that. He should have just sat out the whole season and playoffs and if we had that injury exception, then we could have gotten another C last season and Mitch would probably be fully healed by now.

    The boxscore lies (as they often do 😀 ) the play-by-play is more useful.

    In the last 2 minutes of the game Bridges (2), Brunson (1) and KAT (1) all went for the Julius Randle Special and scored on semi uncontested layups Atlanta was very happy to concede.

    They didn’t even try a three pointer to close the gap in the last 3:20, they simply gave up the fight and pad their stats.

    KAT has improved on defense lately, his positioning is better, his help defense, and so on, but he still isn’t that intimidating presence one would want to have. Also, defense is a team thing. Our problems often start on the perimeter with miscommunications on pick and rolls, switches etc. The thing with good defensive players such as OG and Bridges is that they are supposed to hold their own on the perimeter, help in the paint and at the same time quickly recover on the perimeter so that the defense expands and contracts accordingly. We haven’t achieved anything close to that yet on a consistent basis. Way too often both the paint/rim protection/rebounding, as well as the perimeter defense are a mess.

    Brunson is a target against almost any good team.

    So is Trae Young, but for some reason the Knicks didn’t attack him…

    So is Trae Young, but for some reason the Knicks didn’t attack him…

    At least Atlanta has Capela behind him.

    I think they hid Trae Young on Bridges (someone else may have been paying closer attention). If so, Bridges should have gone off. That he didn’t is saying something.

    Good column by Edwards in the Athletic today, deserves a link hit if possible.

    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5988793/2024/12/12/knicks-not-close-to-championship-contenders/

    Disheartening to see them fall so short in a regular season game where the other team didn’t have injuries, wasn’t schedule-harmed, wasn’t hungover, and really actually cared and prepared. The Hawks have now beaten the Knicks twice, including in a really big game; we should all disabuse ourselves of the idea that they couldn’t do what they did last night in a best of seven in April/May (assuming anyone has such an idea).

    According to NBA.com, we took 25 shots against Daniels and only 7 against Trae Young.

    Trae covered Mikal for 6:43 and Deuce for 2:41. They were his top-2 defensive assignments and each went 1-2 against him.

    The other 3 shots were Anunoby. An open 3 Trae failed to rotate fast enough, a backdoor cuts that I don’t think should have been assigned to Trae, and a transition bucket that Trae tried to flop on leading to an open dunk. None were specifically targeting Trae.

    According to NBA.com, we took 25 shots against Daniels and only 7 against Trae Young.

    I was at the game and was thinking the same thing. Why not target Trae on a switch? –

    Thibs is one hell of a leader to build the troops up and get them ready but he’s obviously not a championship level master war time conciglieri.

    Can I just say FUCK Adam Silver and the NBA for not giving us an injury exception last year for Mitch.

    Say fuck the medical staff.

    The injury exception is for players who are out for the season. Mitch played 17 games the rest of the season and 11 before the end of the season.

    Thibs is one hell of a leader to build the troops up and get them ready but he’s obviously not a championship level master war time conciglieri.

    “You’re out, Tom.”

    Can I just say FUCK Adam Silver and the NBA for not giving us an injury exception last year for Mitch.

    Honestly, Leon at this point should apply for it again.

    Yes, he came back for like 10 games last end of season but you cannot convince me that was wise of him to do that. He should have just sat out the whole season and playoffs and if we had that injury exception, then we could have gotten another C last season and Mitch would probably be fully healed by now.

    nah. the exception would have been $7.8mm. we already had a $6.8mm exception we didn’t use. didn’t cost us anything real.

    Let me start out by saying there were a lot of really disheartening things that happened yesterday. But at the same time, when you shoot 26% from three, it’s really hard to win in today’s NBA.

    Having said that, to me there are two kinds of turnovers. There’s the kind where Josh Hart drives on one of his end-to-end fast breaks and gets stripped at the last moment. Which sucks, but you kind of tip your hat because he’ll succeed or at least draw a foul 5 out of 6 times.

    Then there’s the lazy pass to a player on the other team. Which really gets my goat. Mikal has started to have about two of those a game, which is not endearing him to me.

    Mitch played 17 games the rest of the season and 11 before the end of the season.

    He only played because we didn’t get the medical exception. And he wasn’t playing a lot of minutes when he came back at the end of the regular season. I don’t think he was ready but came back because we were short manned.

    Ditto what Strat said above…i don’t even think the Mitch coming back hail mary is the elixir…they shot their load on this roster structure and looks like they missed the mark…back to the drawing board..including the head coach…the “we need to be better” explanation is going to wear thin…

    He only played because we didn’t get the medical exception. And he wasn’t playing a lot of minutes when he came back at the end of the regular season. I don’t think he was ready but came back because we were short manned.

    He was capable of playing… he played 17 ish games, not one and then broke down. He wasn’t eligible for a medical exception.

    If the medical staff was insistent on forcing a square peg into a round hole, they shouldn’t have brought him back with 11 games to go in the regular season. They should have waited another 3 weeks in the pool before putting him on the floor in a game.

    Mitch was out 15 weeks between games. Had they backed off the entire process by 3 weeks, he would have increased his recovery time by 20% and would have likely had a better out come.

    I trained a stable of equine athletes for 45 years and I can tell you if you bring an athlete back before an injury is sufficiently healed, you are going to have a shitty out come 90% of the time.

    They should have kept Mitch swimming in the pool for his cardio, jumping in the pool to moderately stress the bone to accelerate healing and in the weight room to keep varying muscle groups balanced and strong and then amped him up on the floor when he was radiographicly and symptomatically healed.

    And had Embiid not yanked him off balance to the floor, he might still be playing.

    The Mitch news is very disheartening. Not to be alarmist, but it suggests to me that the surgery did not do the job and that another surgery might be necessary. Or that it will be a chronic problem.

    “You’re out, Tom.”

    –Why do you hurt me Michael? I’ve always been loyal to you. I mean, what is this?
    –So… you’re staying?
    –Yes, I’m staying.

    We should stop looking at Mitch as if he is a messiah. Even if he is not traded, it won’t take more than fifteen-twenty games at most before he is hurt again.

    Its not even about Mitch getting hurt again. He won’t play more than 20 minutes a game tops from this point on in his career.

    He can’t score except dunks and he can’t shoot free throws. He’ll be good if we’re leading games and we need to hold down the fort for a few minutes while KAT sits. But he’s not going to turn things around in a game where we’re behind.

    This is at least the 4th setback (and I am not counting the Embiid cheap shot) on Mitch’s ankle going back to the original injury last year. Wondering if another surgery is needed is not being alarmist. Though didn’t he tweet something last week about having great news?

    He didn’t say anything regarding whether or not it had to do with his injuries at all. Maybe he bought a new truck.

    Leon Rose pushed in all of his chips for a player who is a mediocre offensive player and poor defender. It’s like we traded five first round picks for the 2020s equivalent of Rudy Gay.

    I’m just not seeing it with Mikal. That was a very foolish trade and it makes you really question this FO’s ability to evaluate players.

    Sequence to start the second with 4 stupid TOs that had nothing to do with ATL:

    Towns travel
    Mikal with THAT bad pass
    KAT hits a 3
    Deuce just fumbles his handle
    Payne missed 3
    Hart missed layup
    Hart shuffles his feet for a travel

    This was an atrocious game by the Knicks.

    Leon Rose pushed in all of his chips for a player who is a mediocre offensive player and poor defender.

    Although, it was terrible timing, that’s just one swing and a miss. You cant hit them all. His batting average has been solid. Especially the KAT grand slam. Hence, I’m not worried about the overall ability to evaluate piches and ability to hit.

    You only get one chance to do your “all-in” move, and Leon whiffed. Hard. You really need to get that one right.

    There’s not really a great way to recover from “traded five first round picks for Rudy Gay.” A blunder like that leaves a permanent scar.

    Signing Nova players worked a charm for Leon. But seems like he went to the well one too many times. Hopefully I am proven wrong–this time last year inconsistent DDV taking minutes from IQ was a legitimate gripe.

    A single out is too low of stakes to make the metaphor work. It’s like we bet 24 of our 27 outs on a 2.5 WAR player hitting 4 HRs.

    And it’s hard to call KAT a grand slam given how much he cripples our defense.

    There’s not really a great way to recover from “traded five first round picks for Rudy Gay.” A blunder like that leaves a permanent scar.

    The more games we play like this, the higher the level of concern. Still, there is a ton of time left. So the jury is still out on that.

    I think a point that is being missed with Mitch is that while we don’t know what we’ll actually get when he’s back (20 minutes per game, re-injured, yadda yadda) — I think one almost certain thing is that he’s going to be super rusty, based on previous returns from injuries. So the best possible iteration of Mitch wouldn’t happen for a while, no matter what.

    So when Mitch comes back, no matter what it’ll be a while (if ever) before he becomes a real help.

    I blame myself. Way too positive last game, like an ordinary fan. But the Great Clown Pagliacci is no ordinary fan.

    I turned the game off when they pulled even in 3q, knew it in my bones that this was a collapse and there’d be no semblance of a comeback.
    There really is a palpable lack of resiliency on this team. If we’re not blowing opponents out, we fold like a cheap suit when they make a run.

    I understand that we missed threes, and would have won if we hit just a third of our attempts, but man was this demoralizing. We seem way too slow, unathletic, and old for a team with no core pieces over 30.

    It’s gonna get tiresome having to face up to this over and over until 2031, but the Bridges trade got us here. Could we get Dyson Daniels for him straight up today? I’m pretty sure we could have got DD for less than 5 1RP…

    Did our management not check the metrics on Bridges’ defense for the prior whole year? Why did they think he could guard the Trae Youngs of the world?

    Like Strat says, we’re left needing a major, unicorn level piece (a PF who can rebound, protect the rim, AND spread the floor). With our current asset position we may as well be in need of a spaceship.

    We could have spent our asset chest on filling that need and bringing any of the legion of 3&D wings that are better than Bridges. Any of those five picks could have yielded one if we’d just drafted. Sigh.

    We only really need Mitch for the playoffs. We are playing .600 ball without him. That should keep us at a 3 or 4 seed. This is a very good team.

    Rudy Gay was at least a higher-usage guy and was quite a bit better at 28 than Mikal has been, but that doesn’t undercut what JK wrote in the least. Trading five 1s for Rudy Gay would have been really, really stupid which pretty much tells you what trading five 1s for Mikal was.

    At this point in the season, both Mikal and OG are negative OBPM guys. It’s obvious why; neither does anything on offense except make a relatively efficient low-usage number of shots — and Mikal doesn’t even do that anymore. Neither passes or facilitates anything; neither hits the offensive glass; both are all-but-worthless when a set or series of sets winds down to six-ish seconds on the shot clock and the ball swings to them, leaving only individual improvisation to create a good look. They are the quintessential niche, role players. In context, there’s nothing at all wrong with that — but this isn’t the context.

    One of those types would be fine (I guess), two simply won’t work. They are in fact redundant (though there’s probably a better word to explain it), and I can’t begin to fathom why Leon thought it was a good idea to spend that level of assets to get them in tandem. Strat’s doing yeoman’s work trying to find a fix for this, but moving them both “up” on the “creativity demand position scale” (from 4/3 to 3/2) to work in Mitch Robinson really doesn’t seem like it will do much. I guess we can hope. The better idea, IMHO, would be to move Mikal to the bench to play against worse players and put him on the ball more. He can’t guard good players.

    Others can check my work, I have them at 5-6 against teams currently above .500. That seems about right.

    Regarding Mitch, I think we’re trapped in a receding horizon.

    The number of games it will take to play himself into shape is greater than the number of games it will take to get hurt again. It’s foolish to bank on him ever being back to 100% or close.

    The reaction to the Bridges trade at the time was pretty much positive on this site as I remember, granted many thought 5 picks seemed excessive. But I do remember a lot of “perfect fit” comments

    So there’s some “hindsight is 20/20” here calling this Leon’s biggest blunder, but I guess the response to that would be that he’s supposed to be smarter than us bloggers.

    We only really need Mitch for the playoffs. We are playing .600 ball without him. That should keep us at a 3 or 4 seed. This is a very good team.

    A 49-win pace isn’t exactly reassuring for an all-in team that has played the 3rd easiest schedule and had no major injuries except the guy who’s always injured. Our 2nd and 3rd best players are historically extremely brittle and have only missed 2 games.

    We’re basically on pace to match last year’s team, which was riddled by injuries and 26 games of RJ Barret at -2.0 BPM. If we ran into the Hawks in the first round, would you feel confident?

    If we met the Hawks in the playoffs with home court advantage, I’m pretty sure we’d be favored. After what I’ve endured the past 2 decades, I’ll take a 50-win team that can’t quite get over the hump, if that’s what we top out as.

    So there’s some “hindsight is 20/20” here calling this Leon’s biggest blunder, but I guess the response to that would be that he’s supposed to be smarter than us bloggers.

    Well sure, that’s the thing. I was fine with the trade at the time more or less, but I make bleeps and bloops on synthesizers and play guitar solos for a living. We’re a bunch of schnooks on a WordPress blog. Leon Rose really ought to be better at this than we are.

    We’ve reached a certain level of competence, which is at least something different. As I’ve said many times, I didn’t think we’d even make it this far. We should be a playoff team for the next few years at least.

    Serious contention with this group doesn’t look like it’s in the cards though, unless there’s some major structural change.

    We can do questions like “Are the Knicks really in a position to go all-in?” pretty well, but Leon’s in a way better position than we are to know things like the factors that led to Mikal’s regression last year and therefore how likely it was to continue. It’s his job to know the answer(s) to that question.

    There were warning signs and red flags out there.

    So it’s possible Leon whiffed on both questions:

    1. Is the roster in position for an “all-in” move?
    2. Is Mikal the right guy to push the chips in for?

    If we met the Hawks in the playoffs with home court advantage, I’m pretty sure we’d be favored. After what I’ve endured the past 2 decades, I’ll take a 50-win team that can’t quite get over the hump, if that’s what we top out as.

    We were at home and favored by 11.5 points last night, but we still got walked like a dog. Homecourt doesn’t help us as much as other teams — the bright lights seem to have a laxative effect on us, but not them somehow.

    Philly is a team that has won 50 games or so with a second round ceiling for the last half-decade. Have you been envious of their fortunes?

    It’s like we bet 24 of our 27 outs on a 2.5 WAR player hitting 4 HRs.

    Trading DDV at his peak value and disgruntled Randle coming off injury, whom we were never gonna pay near max money together and yielding the best center in the EC and frindge MVP candidate who filled a glaring roster a need during traing camp is a bottom of the 9th season saving home run. The salary cap manipulation alone was magisterial.

    Fuhgeddaboudit – I have full confidence in Leon.

    Have you been envious of their fortunes?

    Up until very recently Philly was held up as the gold standard on this blog for how to do a proper rebuild.

    Up until very recently Philly was held up as the gold standard on this blog for how to do a proper rebuild.

    It still is.

    Embiid’s brittleness notwithstanding, Philly’s problems stem from the league-mandated ouster of Hinkie and the sabotage of their rebuild by Bryan Colangelo before the yield from the Process could be realized. If not for this they’d likely be OKC East.

    Instead they are another rebuild that failed the marshmallow test and tried to contend prematurely. Like us.

    Philly went all in on Tobias Harris after Kawhi hit that fade away to win the game and moved on from Jimmy.

    Leon never sent an ALL-NBA player packing or maxed an average scrub. The overpay argument went from dlight to significant but it’s silly to say that Mikal is not a starter on a champinship caliber team at 28yrs old.

    it’s hard to ever find it (called The Godfather Saga I believe), but am I the only one who likes watching all the scenes from Godfather 1 & 2 in chronological order?

    but am I the only one who likes watching all the scenes from Godfather 1 & 2 in chronological order?

    I watched that a few times in my early 20’s when I was super into those films. It’s an interesting experience. If I remember, though, there were also some deleted scenes in that version with the young Don Corleone that were not in part 2.

    “it’s hard to ever find it (called The Godfather Saga I believe), but am I the only one who likes watching all the scenes from Godfather 1 & 2 in chronological order?”

    I’m thinking that maybe you’re the only one who has the time for it. Not sure I’m understanding “watching the scenes.” Why wouldn’t you just watch the two movies back to back?

    I’m thinking that maybe you’re the only one who has the time for it. Not sure I’m understanding “watching the scenes.”

    Coppola put together a version called The Godfather Saga that puts all the scenes in part one and two in chronological order with some added scenes to it. It’s like 7 hours long or something.

    Thanks, walker. Now I’m even more certain that geo would be the only one who has time for that. I certainly wouldn’t.

    Embiid’s brittleness notwithstanding, Philly’s problems stem from the league-mandated ouster of Hinkie and the sabotage of their rebuild by Bryan Colangelo before the yield from the Process could be realized. If not for this they’d likely be OKC East.

    Part of tanking is lottery luck, draft selection and draft luck.

    1. His first move was trading Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel and a protected pick. Not exactly a good start, especially because Holiday was still very young.

    2. He selected Embiid, Okafor and Michael Carter Williams. Simmons was selected right after he left. He most likely would have made the same pick.

    Embiid is great player, but he’s always hurt. Everything else turned
    into a disaster.

    We all know the upsides of blowing up a mediocre older team and accumulating assets, but the 76ers are not the gold standard of tanking.

    Philly’s problems stem from the league-mandated ouster of Hinkie and the sabotage of their rebuild by Bryan Colangelo

    Not to drag up process arguments again but shouldn’t 4 seasons of tanking be enough time to process?

    The reaction to the Bridges trade at the time was pretty much positive on this site as I remember, granted many thought 5 picks seemed excessive. But I do remember a lot of “perfect fit” comments

    So there’s some “hindsight is 20/20” here calling this Leon’s biggest blunder, but I guess the response to that would be that he’s supposed to be smarter than us bloggers.

    There was a similar proposed trade the day before that I referred to as “insane” and said we were paying a superstar price for a guy whose offense is worse than Donte’s was last year by the metrics and whose defense is wildly overrated.

    It wasn’t that we made a slight overpay, it’s that we paid a superstar price for Quentin Grimes. We’d arguably be better off if we had kept Quentin Grimes, who can defend the PoA. We could even let Fournier walk and trade all our picks for the draft rights to the rest of the Spurs’ assistant coaching staff and be better.

    There’s a theoretical upside to Bridges that could pay off, but so far he’s undershot his lowest expectations. His efficiency is effectively the same as last year even after a significant drop in usage and playing as the 3rd banana.

    A few people on here had Bridges > Randle and said he could be the 2nd option here…

    I know I’m a bit down on the team construction right now, but I don’t think we are “all in”. I think this is fixable. I just don’t have any good ideas.

    This construction issue takes me back to something that has been discussed in the past.

    When they traded for Bridges, it made a lot of sense to me because I saw it an upgrade over DDV on both sides of the ball in the starting lineup and a strengthening of the bench scoring with DDV going there.

    At that point, I-Hart still hadn’t signed with OKC.

    It was I-Hart abandoning ship that screwed things up because then we needed a replacement C.

    Towns is obviously a much better all around player than Kessler, but Kessler is the much better interior defender. If we traded for Kessler (or someone like that) instead, I think we’d have a much less potent offense, but much less of an issue with the team construction, defense, and depth.

    I’m not saying Towns was a mistake or that Bridges was a mistake, but I think you can say the combination of Towns and Bridges was a mistake.

    There are too many holes to plug defensively.

    Towns is by all measures the best player on the Knicks. Bridges being a good defender is one of the bigger issues. Towns has held up his end of the job.

    Bridges being a good defender is one of the bigger issues.

    *Bridges being a bad defender *

    A few people on here had Bridges > Randle and said he could be the 2nd option here…

    Again, the issue with Bridges is not his scoring. He got off to a rough start from 3, but he’s playing well on offense lately.

    The problem is we have two weak defenders in Towns and Brunson. So we need all plus defenders with them to try to salvage the defense. And secondly we have some issue with rebounding when Towns is out.

    Bridges is not a disaster on defense, but he’s nowhere good enough as a POA defender. He gets burnt a LOT.

    He’s taking the brunt of the blame because we paid so much for him and expected more on D, but he’s not really the issue. The issue on D is really more about Brunson/Towns and Bridges not being part of the solution.

    it is fixable but not during this season…others on here are more adept at citing what is doable vis a vis aprons/contracts, etc…but this season strikes me as a “decent squad” but no chance at conf finals (and no amount of future “gelling” will move the needle) and go into off season with goal of correcting to the best they can the limitations of this config…

    Gonna be tough to correct when you still owe five 1s over the next seven years. They’re also facing the extension decision with Mikal. He’s only under contract through next year. There’s no serious sense in which he’s a max player.

    Throwing out politics, in pure basketball terms, the best thing to do with Mikal at this point is probably to pivot and cut your losses.

    It wasn’t that we made a slight overpay, it’s that we paid a superstar price for Quentin Grimes.

    I wish we had gotten Grimes for our pile of draft picks instead of Bridges! Grimes is 12th in DEPM this year (6th among non-bigs) and 50th overall putting up 62.5% TS. Bridges is 206th in DEPM and 106th overall. Grimes also has more than twice as many made free throws in less than half the minutes.

    Grimes has some upside remaining at 24, while Bridges peaked two seasons ago.

    Our FO really undervalues the upside of younger players. If you’re trading prospects for win-now players, the win-now players really have to be a lot higher in current value than the prospects. We failed the marshmallow test.

    Thanks, walker. Now I’m even more certain that geo would be the only one who has time for that.

    Swift just told you he had watched it too! (Please don’t slip back to off-season doogie just because the knicks lost the ist)

    Mikal was never a poa defender. Thibs is just stuborrn and loves Hart so he won’t let Deuce start and take that assignment against teams like Hawks, Warriors, Cleveland etc…but I think he would do that in a ATL first round matchup although probably late… by game four.

    “Gonna be tough to correct when you still owe five 1s over the next seven years.”

    Four picks and one likely meaningless pick swap, but who’s counting?

    I’ve seen clips of a younger Mikal guarding players like Dame and Steph and doing a decent job of it. Looked much more aggressive and engaged.

    He honestly looks like he’s phoning it in here.

    He’s lost a step.

    Debates can be had about how much it matters, but they don’t have very many 2s through ’31 either:

    2025 — forfeited for “tampering.”
    2026 — swap, Minnesota’s coming in
    2027 — still have
    2028 — to Detroit
    2029 — to Detroit
    2030 — to Portland
    2031 — to Charlotte

    Mikal was never a poa defender. Thibs is just stuborrn and loves Hart so he won’t let Deuce start and take that assignment against teams like Hawks, Warriors, Cleveland etc…but I think he would do that in a ATL first round matchup although probably late… by game four.

    Thibs isn’t refusing to start Deuce for Hart because he’s an idiot. He’s refusing because that would make us the worst rebounding team in the NBA. See: us getting dominated on the glass last night every minute Towns sat.

    As for why we can’t start Deuce in place of Bridges, well I’m afraid that’s yet another downside of us trading a superstar level package for the guy.

    He’s lost a step.

    Yep. And he didn’t have one to spare. No amount of gelling will get that back.

    He honestly looks like he’s phoning it in here.

    It just looks to me like he’s playing a different defense than the other 4 players on the court with him. When defensively he gets put into the screener, he plays it every time like he is expecting to switch. He doesn’t make the slightest effort to get through the screen and follow his man.

    It is baffling to me.

    I wish we had gotten Grimes for our pile of draft picks instead of Bridges! Grimes is 12th in DEPM this year (6th among non-bigs) and 50th overall putting up 62.5% TS. Bridges is 206th in DEPM and 106th overall. Grimes also has more than twice as many made free throws in less than half the minutes.

    Okay, now I’m depressed.

    Mikal was never a poa defender.

    the thing to know about people is that they just say shit either way. mikal was a fantastic poa defender. he was positionally solid but also highly disruptive, with multiple years at in phoenix at 3-4 deflections and 7-9 contests per 36, often guarding the best creator. he is miles away from that now at 1.6 and 4-5, and a smaller offensive burden doesn’t seem to be doing much to spark a reversion.

    he is still not as bad as people seem to think. and he absolutely did not get abused by trae last night; that was our very predictable drop with a 5 who particularly doesn’t and didn’t play drop well against clever passers and unusually poor help games from OG and Josh (and jalen failing to help off non-shooters). to that end: we looked tired as hell. mikal wasn’t awesome or anything but he was ok. the problem is that okay or even pretty good isn’t really enough for the hole we were looking to patch.

    https://www.si.com/nba/2021/02/03/mikal-bridges-suns-ultimate-weapon

    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3030600/2021/12/24/stalker-of-legends-how-the-suns-mikal-bridges-has-become-a-modern-day-stopper/

    Grimes is a negative OBPM guy, too, for much the same reasons Mikal and OG are … which isn’t to disagree, but only to note the fungibility of those kind of guys and to share in the bemoanment of giving up five 1s and a swap for one.

    They also have Josh Hart, the difference being that Josh does bring other things to the table. They’ve churned through/accumulated these guys to a bizarre and counterproductive degree.

    Okay… I’m trying to take a breath.

    I actually thought Mikal was okay last night. He was able to get back in the play a handful of times and I think his length deterred Trae from shooting a couple times when he got space. He got blown by a couple times, but it’s difficult for anyone to stay in front of Trae for a full game. By the numbers, the defense as a whole was successful even with all the ORebs.

    He’ll be fine on offense eventually, and we’ve started to see it, it’s just disappointing so far.

    I still think we over paid by at least 2-3 picks.

    The guarding last night was not horrible, we missed a ton of shots and got destroyed on the glass (which Bridges contributes to)

    FWIW, Cleaning the Glass has us with the 3rd best defense sans garbage time over the last 2 weeks (their cutoff not mine, we played 7 games). Granted the offenses we’ve played are marginally better than fielding 5 Josh Harrelsons, but we wouldn’t have stopped a closet full of Jorts at the beginning of the season.

    Over that time we’ve been 28th in Dreb%, which explains why it feels like we can’t rebound despite the season number being okay.

    We have the 3rd best defensive efg% and 2nd best FTrate allowed over those 2 weeks. Defensive TOV% is almost exactly average.

    I’d like to think the improvement is partly Thibs adjustments but also Mikal getting used to going over screens again instead of switching and KAT adjusting to drop C instead of playing PF next to Gobert.

    he (Bridges) was positionally solid but also highly disruptive, with multiple years in phoenix at 3-4 deflections and 7-9 contests per 36, often guarding the best creator. he is miles away from that now at 1.6 and 4-5

    Do we think Bridges knows this?

    pt with the truth:

    “that was our very predictable drop with a 5 who particularly doesn’t and didn’t play drop well against clever passers and unusually poor help games from OG and Josh (and jalen failing to help off non-shooters).”

    It was maddening to watch KAT back up to give Trae take-off space for his floater.

    Also, and this really IS eye-test, it seemed every long rebound went straight to a Hawk. We weren’t being out-rebounded or even out-hustled (oh, and yes, we were those things, too), but immensely unlucky for about 36 minutes there.

    Maybe we were crap at tracking those long rebounds to get there in time, but they came fast and furious and it was always to a Hawk.

    FWIW, Cleaning the Glass has us with the 3rd best defense sans garbage time over the last 2 weeks (their cutoff not mine, we played 7 games). Granted the offenses we’ve played are marginally better than fielding 5 Josh Harrelsons, but we wouldn’t have stopped a closet full of Jorts at the beginning of the season.

    5 Josh Harrelsons isn’t far off. The average Ortg of the last 7 opponents is 110.3 which would rank 25th in the league.

    The team isn’t that old. My guess is there won’t be any changes for at least another year unless for some reason things really take a turn for the worse. Right now, they’re on like a 49 win pace. I think as long as they make it out of the play in, they won’t make any big changes over the summer. If things look the same in the fall, Thibodeau is probably the first to go.

    Ideally, they’d be more proactive and make some future facing moves this spring, helping true title contenders with some of our rotation players. Think about the Spurs kind of mini resets, letting Avery Johnson go and not trading for Jason kidd to instead let Tony Parker develop. Trading for the Kawhi Leonard pick.

    If Brunson and towns are the two immovable parts, I would look at trading Hart and Anunoby with an aim of adding cheap young talent in the summer and setting up cap room down the line. See how Dadiet fits. See how bridges does with a bigger role and hope he can raise his value.

    With the personnel we have we should run a switch everything type of defense and just focus on the 3pt line as much as possible. Keep everyone covered and take away open three’s. It might hurt us at the rim but we don’t defend there particularly well anyway and it should help defensive rebounding.

    It is perfect for Bridges, OG, and Hart and probably good for Precious and McBride as well. It could be a problem for Brunson and Towns (what isn’t) but Brunson is strong and getting switched onto a bigger player isn’t the end of the world and Towns is better in space than playing drop and trying to protect the rim.

    It seems Thibs’s scheme is very wrong for both our personnel and the fact that we are an elite offensive team. Limiting 3’s and offensive rebounds is more important than trying to be a great defensive team.

    As usual, top quality post from Ben R. I’m on board. Let’s try the thing that could possibly work to make us not terrible instead of the thing that definitely won’t work to make us good.

    Thibs’s rep as a great defensive coach rests entirely on the dead ball era, where nobody had more than 3 shooters and rim protection was king. Post-Bulls, his teams average 17th in Drtg and have never been top 10 except for the empty gym year when everything was weird as hell and we were 3rd.

    He’s actually done an admirable job of evolving offensively, but in this area the game appears to have left him behind.

    i kind of remember those years when we used to play a “switch” defense…we were not very good at it…always looked like a bunch of chickens running around without heads…

    different group now, better players…

    to be honest though, i’m not watching these games nearly close enough to notice what’s going on with defenders – except the point of attack defense stuff – it’s the first action so it’s very obvious when it goes well or doesn’t…

    i was wondering whom was a better point of attack defender: deuce or josh…i’m not sure where to see that reflected in a stat…

    it definitely ain’t mikal bridges…he’s not quick at all…

    so, interesting to read above the thought that it’s probably deuce…what about cam payne, is he also quicker at the point of attack than josh?

    is lateral quickness the most important thing though for a poa defender…daniels or suggs don’t seem that quick…

    i’m not going with the mikal is phoning it in storyline…doesn’t seem that way on the court, nor in his stats…

    i’d bet on him playing better the second half of the year…it’s like he’s always pacing himself though…

    Daniels is deceptively quick for 6’7. He had one play last night where I couldn’t believe how fast he recovered.

    We need another big. OG is out of the play a lot when he contests threes and what we had behind him was totally insufficient to get a d board.

    with Shams saying Robinson likely to be cleared late Jan/Feb – we will have to see how the team works after 2̶0̶ ̶g̶a̶m̶e̶s̶ 40 games before making a call.

    oh well.

    With the personnel we have we should run a switch everything type of defense and just focus on the 3pt line as much as possible. Keep everyone covered and take away open three’s. It might hurt us at the rim but we don’t defend there particularly well anyway and it should help defensive rebounding.

    This is a good way to put it, and sums up why I have been frustrated with Thibs. We have some length and we have the three switchable wings, but we don’t really do a lot of switching and we don’t contest threes very well. As you mentioned, we’re getting torched at the rim anyway.

    I’d be looking to create more turnovers as well. Co-sign with Pags here as well that Thibs’ reputation as a defensive coach comes from a previous era. The results just haven’t been there on the defensive end since he has coached the Knicks, other than that first season which has a whiff of flukiness to it.

    Ok. Someone please put together a PowerPoint on Ben R’s idea and submit it to management. Strong consensus developing here.

    Barrett, with a 5-18 triple double, 3 blocks and 6 turnovers, is turning Westbrookian before our eyes.

    When Westbrook was doing it on the regular, he was close to averaging 30 points per game, I believe. Barrett…….well, isn’t doing that.

    I think the issue is less with roster construction as it is how its being used.

    The fact that Thibs is still trying to have KAT as a drop center is an issue, asking Bridges to chase down on every 3 attempt is an issue and play 40+ mins and also be the 2nd option at points by cutting and screening. I’m exhausted watching him. A coach either forces their way or adapts their way to their roster. Do we think that Spolz would be running this defense when he knows it’s not working?

    There are no adjustments at any point in the game (as usual I know). An 8 man rotation in Dec. is baffling to me. Im not saying Huk is the answer, but we know hes better than Sims. Why is he not getting burn? Why are we sitting through a “Cam Payne heaves the 3” offense?

    This is a coaching issue.

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