Knicks Morning News (2023.05.27)

I don’t foresee any real “star” becoming available this summer and I see all the usual suspect types having warts. I’d frankly rather just take a swing at RJ’s upside than trade for LaVine or Beal. That kind of trade is pretty much a Spida Reprise and we saw how that worked out.

Here are the players I’d definitely make a move for:

SGA
Scoot
Giannis

Most likely, none will be available. There’s a reason for that, and a reason why the LaVines and the Beals and the Spidas of the world are available.

In the “I would probably wind up talking myself into it” category, the head of the list is KAT. Then probably PG-13. I have no interest in OG at anything like a price like RJ plus multiple unprotected 1s.

Robinson more than Grimes, yeah. But other teams’ fanbases aren’t sitting around salivating over a low-usage guy who laid massive serious brick in the postseason.

Nobody gives two shits about how they performed in the playoffs this year,

I think you’ll find a pretty big divergence of opinion from me on this one — for what should be obvious, no-purpose-to-relitigate reasons.

If you trade for Towns, the idea HAS TO be to also upgrade the perimeter defense and also make sure you keep someone like Grimes.

There’s no reason whatsoever to place Grimes on this kind of pedestal. (*) He’s eminently disposable, eminently replaceable. They played three full playoff games without him versus Cleveland and didn’t miss him at all, including on defense.

If they get a star and it “costs,” among others, Grimes, his inclusion in the deal would be the definitive non-factor.

(*) He’s not the only one on the roster in this state.

And yet many people on this blog do salivate over those exact types of players on other teams even teams worse than ours. Why is that?

I’m not sure exactly what players we’re talking about here, but my guess would be those players’ athleticism and upside. I think generally it isn’t an answer to the statement, “Leon should have drafted 18 and drafted 11” to say, “Why — we already have Quentin Grimes and Mitchell Robinson??”

But I may be missing your precise point.

Disagree with the characterization of “non-factor”, but he definitely shouldn’t be a deal-breaker either.

Fair distinction.

It’s always the guy who retaliates that gets the technical …..

Landry Fields is Quentin Grimes’s floor.

It’s late for him to change his game a lot. We’ve been through the significant athletic movement difference between catch and shoot and shooting on the move and while he sometimes looks like he can shoot on the move, he rarely if ever does.(*) And he would have test driven the idea “off-road” beyond any question. It’s tough to develop a jump shot off dribble movement this late.

In terms of drive and pass … not really. He does have the regular season move where he can get baseline past a hard (or lazy) closeout from the corner 3 position and then dish to a rim-hanging center. He rarely if ever kicks that one out to 3, which may only be because the rim-hanging center is there and available — not sure. But this is a very easy move to shut down when the other team cares and sure enough, it was pretty much completely shut down in the postseason and when he tried it a couple times versus Miami, both were turnovers.

When the competition heated up as it does in the playoffs, he did not meet the moment, or anything close. That’s pretty much the opposite of the “hidden toolbox” idea … more like a reverse hidden toolbox, where the regular season “tools” go away.

I don’t mean to be down on the guy, but this is my good faith scouting report. I just don’t see much there. He is, as his KB fans’ line of retreat holds, an NBA-caliber rotation piece. He’s good from three and he’s good on D. I just don’t see the chance of the upside from that as anything more like 20%. It seems like the line of retreat is saying it’s 50-50 either way.

At this point, though he plays kind of the same position, and though his fans insisted through much of the year that he was a better player (yes, they did do this) he doesn’t really at this point even fit into the same player profile/bucket as RJ Barrett. Quentin is a decent 3 and D, low usage guy; RJ is a personal usage creator who’s an achievable uptick in efficiency from being a star and he was basically a star in the playoffs.

(He didn’t really reinvent anything in college. He went to KU, basically got beat out by fellow freshman Ochai Agbaji, transferred to what was then a mid-major, got more playing time and grew from a freshman to a junior. Agbaji got crowded out a bit last year in Utah but is arguably still the better prospect.)

(*) There were two instances in the Miami series where he shot threes not off dribble and gather movement, but not exactly with his feet pre-set in catch and shoot position. One was in Game 5 when he came like from almost like out of bounds to his left, caught the ball and shot from the corner 3 area. Missed by a lot. The second was the final possession of Game 6 where I guess they ran the side out of bounds play for him and he caught in a bit of a different position than purely facing the basket, feet set, but still wide open at corner 3 and hoisted a UFO.

He’s 22, same as RJ. But apparently RJ can do this?

Well, obviously he can, because he did a bunch of times in the playoff cauldron.

It’s kind of strange. RJ Barrett was great in the playoffs, but everyone is projecting him down; Quentin Grimes was terrible in the playoffs, but everyone is projecting him up.

That’s kind of what I and others are getting at with the KB opinion here. It doesn’t compute at all.

And this was RJ’s second stint in the playoffs, and he was fully healthy.

Actually, no he wasn’t. He had a bad ankle.

LOL. OK, Z-Man, whatever you say.

This is obviously the time when people are going to start getting pissy and aggressive just for the purpose, so I’ll leave my comments on the matter as is.

You reap what you sow

You get pissy and belligerent at any point where you suspect that someone knows more about you about a basketball topic or basketball generally, and then if that expressed knowledge runs in a direction that you suspect is a dig at Leon Rose or Tom Thibodeau, you turn the volume up to 11.

Everyone has seen and knows this pattern, and you’re demonstrating it yet again. The conversation was perfectly fine before you staggered in looking for one of your stupid fights again.

“Grimes hasn’t reached his ceiling” is nothing more than a matter of faith. It’s possible he has, and there are parts of his game that should make one suspicious that he might have. He plays an older dude’s game in many ways, and the 3&D thing is itself kind of old dude-ish.(*)

He also might not have. But just being 22 doesn’t mean you haven’t hit your ceiling. Plenty of guys hit their ceiling then.

Grimes is becoming very theoretical yet again on KB. We’ve seen this pattern before.

(*) It’s also eminently possible that his playoff whiff will itself sap some of his confidence and keep his game stagnant — or worse. That’s been known to happen, too.

No, I think you often get pissy and belligerent, which you did again today. Now you’re playing your “let’s vote him off the island” routine again, which often happens, too.

Half the reason I post so much is because I’m not going to let you pull your bullshit unanswered. (Usually. Sometimes I do.) I was basically done for the day until you barged in with your inane bullshit about “making things up.”

The argument here has become essentially a tautology — Grimes is as good as Barrett, and they’re the same age, therefore he can grow the same way Barrett has and will … why? … because he’s as good as Barrett.

But the underlying premise is faulty and always has been. In my humble opinion. I’ve tried to explain why. If it’s not bought, fine — but there are plenty who see and buy it.

Barrett misses too many shots. Grimes doesn’t have enough game. Those are two entirely different things. They’re not even in the same analytical “pod” at this point.

Right, Z-Man — that’s what I said. One has a limited game, the other has way more game.

I’m not exactly sure why that tune needed an inferior remake. But you do you.

Who’s got the better upside?

Same answer as to Z-Man — the guy with way more game.

We’re sort of getting to the film criticism portion of the proceedings.

snazza frazza rashin’ fashin’

LOL.

I’d very much like to see Grimes replace RJ to see what would happen. Doesn’t mean it’s going to work.

I just don’t particularly like RJ because he’s bad at basketball and I do want to see if we can make the “invisible toolbox” visible. Maybe it’s there, maybe it’s not.

OK, at least it’s affirmatively out in the open and we can now move on beyond the “all anyone thinks is that he’s just a solid rotation piece with maybe some upside.”

I’ll end my part of it by saying that I think RJ Barrett has more game than Quentin Grimes and I don’t think it’s even particularly close. This fact makes his upside quite a bit higher, and in most important ways, he’s already a significantly better player. They weren’t in the same galaxy in the 2023 postseason.

I expect this opinion to be borne out over the upcoming years, and will be surprised if it isn’t. However, as with all these things, it’s possible it won’t be.

If someone is truly committed to the opposite position, I have no illusions that I’d be able to sway that person, because the debate is more akin to something like film criticism.

RJ’s 99th percentile outcome is higher than Quentin Grimes’ 99th percentile outcome, because of RJ’s shot creation ability.

If this just became a permanent sticky on the Knickerblogger rafters, we could probably move on for good — though I still think there would be some sporadic guerilla activity in the nearby hills.

But here’s the thing — so is Cam Reddish’s.

[Ducks and puts on double Kevlar body vest]