The Athletic: Knicks, Jazz engage in Donovan Mitchell trade talks

Randle, Grimes and five firsts (though no more than two of the Knicks own) would be okay with me but getting rid of Randle is a big part of it. I still wouldn’t be thrilled. But I can’t imagine Utah wanting any part of Randle. Fournier plus multiple young guys plus 4 picks? No thanks.

i voted yes, very begrudgingly…

the size of our backcourt concerns me…who knows, maybe donovan starts playing defense again…

if our starting five includes brunson, mitchell and barrett – that’s like the land of the lilliputians out there…

and no, i myself am not even six foot, and i’m pretty sure i’ve shrunk a bit over the last decade or so…

one other thing – i keep reading folks using reddish’s name as though he’ll contribute something next season…honestly watching a few pre-season games makes me think i’d much rather have hunt on the bench than reddish…

This seems like an Isiah Thomas kind of move, which is to acquire the big name player regardless of fit or defensive ability. A Brunson/Mitchell backcourt really does not make a ton of sense, but hey! Star player!

This is also a little bit similar to acquiring Amar’e Stoudemire and then trading everything everything in the cupboard for a relatively duplicative player who doesn’t play a lot of defense in Carmelo Anthony.

I guess we have to see what is actually in the deal and whether or not it happens but this is not giving me a great feeling.

anyone else on the jazz roster we should be targeting in the deal?

JK, it’s definitely going to be like Melo and Amare all over again. As you say, Melo didn’t fit with Amare and the Knicks never fixed that. Mitchell doesn’t fit with Brunson. We won’t have much, if any, back court defense. I’m not in favor at all. We can’t make the money work unless we trade good players who are young either. The Knicks with Melo and Amare didn’t really do that well as a playoff team either as I remember. If a team with Mitchell and Gobert can’t do well in the playoffs, I don’t see why we will do any better if we have Mitchell.

As you might guess, I voted no.

I miss Steve Mills.

By reading the last thread, i’d have guessed that the poll would be a lot more lopsided in favor of not wanting Donovan. I thought i was alone on Donovan island.

Is Luka a good defender? Brunson just made the conference finals with the same type of player. Of course, Donovan is no Luka, but he’s a very good player and Brunson is fresh of meshing well in a similar situation. Let them play and then we’ll know. They’re young, we can use one of them to trade for a better star, if the pairing doesn’t work. Or a star might want to come here play with them. Who knows if KD starts listing the Knicks as cool to come play with Donovan. RJ, Randle and the 2 or 3 picks we’ll be left with, and all of the sudden we’ll have Brunson, Donovan and KD (or a similar star). With a good C, we’ll just need a reliable PF. The Warriors grabbed Otto Porter for the minimum last year, and there’s always guys like him available every season, if you’re a contender.

Question for someone more knowledgeable than me: if we extend RJ is there some sort of moratorium before we can trade him?

JK47 * This seems like an Isiah Thomas kind of move, which is to acquire the big name player regardless of fit or defensive ability. A Brunson/Mitchell backcourt really does not make a ton of sense, but hey! Star player!*

Totally agree with JK (EDIT: and GH) but CYBER (?!) is now driving the Optimist Express, so I’m conflicted 😉

With Donovan and Brunson most likely we’ll spend two years hand-wringing on this board about “spacing, chemistry, lax D, both are too short, both need the ball in hand, CAA sucks, etc.” This “non-fit” narrative also gives Thibs an excuse, and I hate that.

But I love the Knicks, so … plus ça change.

Going after Spida would have made a lot more sense if they hadn’t first signed Brunson. But now they’re locked in and I don’t see how you can possibly compete defensively in playoff games with a small backcourt of Spida and Brunson.

I’d try to send DRose their way and get Beverley back. They’re the same age and make the same money, but Beverley is very good defensively and that would give Thibs a player to rotate with Brunson and Donovan, that would probably make the backcourt a positive defensively. If Brunson+Donovan are a disaster defensively, we even could avoid giving them a lot of minutes together and start using more the Beverley+Donovan with Brunson+Quick/Grimes (the one that wasn’t traded) as backup. Of course, because politics, Brunson and Donovan will start, but after 6 mins Thibs could switch to always have a defensive presence in the backcourt. Much in line with Elfrid starting but playing less minutes than DRose, two season ago.

Greetings from Canton in NYs North Country! Glad to be away while nothing is going on in Knicksville.

I’d try to send DRose their way and get Beverley back. They’re the same age and make the same money, but Beverley is very good defensively and that would give Thibs a player to rotate with Brunson and Donovan, that would probably make the backcourt a positive defensively. If Brunson+Donovan are a disaster defensively, we even could avoid giving them a lot of minutes together and start using more the Beverley+Donovan with Brunson+Quick/Grimes (the one that wasn’t traded) as backup. Of course, because politics, Brunson and Donovan will start, but after 6 mins Thibs could switch to always have a defensive presence in the backcourt. Much in line with Elfrid starting but playing less minutes than DRose, two season ago.

They have a lot of suitors for Pat Bev, so I find it hard to believe they’d expand the trade to include him. Ainge clearly feels like he has the guy the Knicks want, ya know? I don’t see him doing extra sweetening like that. Now, throwing Mike Conley in there, then yes, I could see that, but the Knicks shouldn’t want that.

Brunson Mitchell RJ and Randle would be such a stupid team

By the way, I think Mitchell and Mitch are pretty easy to tell apart, name-wise. Mitchell is Donovan Mitchell’s last name, so he’s never going to be “Mitch,” while Mitchell is Mitchell Robinson’s first name, so he can be “Mitch.” So as long as we say “Mitchell” for Donovan Mitchell and “Mitch” for Mitchell Robinson, I don’t think that’s confusing.

My sense is maybe the Lakers would say no, but maybe we kick them one of the protected 1sts we have.

I mean, we already knew the Lakers could have traded Westbrook for Wall and given up just a single first round pick and they balked at that, so I doubt they’re giving up two to bring back those guys in return for Westbrook. Their firsts are just so important to them right now. If it’s not Kyrie coming for them, I don’t see them parting with them and instead will just try to see if Ham can work Westbrook into the flow of things better than Vogel did.

On Mitchells defense is he just laterally deficient on that end or is it more of an effort thing. Hes built strong and has an insane wingspan so hypothetically he could stick with a lot of two’s.

I’m still against the trade after the Brunson signing and I hope this isnt our all in move.

Alan – IMHO the Melo-ness of this trade really depends on what the actual trade parameters are.
Our asset trove is much much deeper than it was back when we made the Melo trade. Back then, after we made the all-in move for Melo, we basically had nothing left other than the Tyson Chandler move which was honestly pretty awesome. And so w were stuck with no guard play and a duplicative front court with Melo/Amare, with Amare on his last legs as a supremely athletic player.

The Brunson/Mitchell fit is not great, but there theoretically could be more moves to make — assuming Rose does not get his clock cleaned by Ainge. I am hopeful that he is too shrewd a negotiator for that…. and that Dolan keeps himself out of the fray.

And Brian — I am not so sure the Lakers wouldn’t make that trade — Randle is still only 26ish, and I could see them looking at him as a buy-low talent just a little over a year from being a 2nd team All-NBA guy who is locked up for 4 years at a reasonable $ as the cap is rising. Randle as 3rd banana to AD and Lebron might just clear his head and reorient him. They showed interest in Cam last trade deadline. Rose and Clarkson are legitimate rotation players that would/could play real playoff minutes.

Frank, i think your trade works if the Lakers only send 1 unprotected pick. Jazz get 3 unprotected and 2 protected. We get Donovan. Lakers get the players. Randle would be their C, to go along with AD and Lebron to form a powerful frontcourt. DRose and Clarkson are a lot better than Westbrook and Bradley.

and even his playoff motor has been desultory.

That’s probably the biggest ding on Mitchell, that he didn’t even seem to step it up for the playoffs this year.

We can’t trade any of our centers, correct? Or is Sims eligible in a way Mitch and Hartenstein would not be?

And Frank, I hear what you’re saying to a degree. But Ainge is an even tougher negotiator than Masai was, and an absurd bar was set by the Gobert deal. Donovan is younger and, in the eyes of many within and without the NBA, a better player than Rudy. Is Ainge really going to accept a lesser package for him? If not, that would be an utterly calamitous deal.

Alan – I think we’re on the same page here.

My only hopes are:

1) Leon Rose is a much better negotiator than Tim Connelly or Billy King. This is not a high bar.

2) every negotiation is a different story even if shaped by previous transactions. As I said in a post yesterday or the day before, I am not sure that there is that much pressure on Leon to do this deal — I think fans would be reasonably happy with keeping our powder dry, adding Brunson + Hartenstein, and letting the kids grow (although now with the trade talk I assume expectations have moved a bit). This Knicks team is YOUNG, and will get better just with time. Mitchell’s trade value declines with each passing day, especially if he (and I assume Mike Conley) formally ask to be traded. And since I don’t think Donovan is the type to go Fat Harden on the Jazz, he would just bring wins to a team that clearly doesn’t want wins right now.

I guess what I’m saying is — the reason Ainge was able to extract such a ransom from Connelly is that he had plausible fall-back that the Jazz could just run it back, maybe it was Quin Snyder’s fault, blah blah blah and so we don’t need to trade Rudy. This is no longer a plausible fall-back. And so that piece of leverage is no longer available to Ainge. So if he’s planning on trading Mitchell, who else is going to offer what the Knicks can offer? I think it was Dallas Amico on twitter who said all the Knicks have to do is beat Miami’s offer, and you have to think NYK unprotected picks are probably 3x as valuable as Miami unprotected picks — and of course Ainge and Riley absolutely hate each other also.

I voted no, but I think too much is being made of the small Brunson/Mitchell backcourt.

Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars were 6’1” and 6’3” respectively and the Pistons managed pretty well as I remember

I voted no, but I think too much is being made of the small Brunson/Mitchell backcourt.

If they were known as good defenders, like, say Pat Bev, who is also short, or Thomas and Dumars, it’d be a whole other story. They’re not. Hence the concern.

This is gonna be peak Knicksy when it’s every young player and 7 first rounders

Man that would be so disheartening.

Another longer-term question – would Leon trade his godson if it made the team better? Brunson on a declining contract is probably a good trade piece but that would be pretty cold. Well I guess not that cold since he also gave his godson $100 million. I could tolerate a lot of cold for $100MM.

Well Donovan and Brunson would probably be really good on O, so it would be up to Thibs to get the most out of them on D.

BTW we’d have to send out significant salary now that we’re over the cap, so doesn’t one of Julius, Fournier or Rose have to go out?

Its not going to be all of our young players and 7 first round picks. I trust Leon to walk away if the ask is too high.

Each of these star trades is it’s own unique situation. Who else is going after Donovan? Does Utah expect more for Mitchell since they got so much for Gobert or will they be cool with anything decent because they already got so much for Gobert. Can we give them like 5 firsts and Randle and/or Fournier and/or Rose (and maybe someone like Rokas) or are they going to insist on one of our key young players.

The Brunson Mitchell back court is not ideal but if we can have bench guards that are bigger and better defenders we can figure out a rotation that works. And Thibs is a good defensive coach. Plus it can’t be worse than Kemba and Fournier, right?

Also, keep in mind when we traded for Melo. Those talks started several months before the trade actually happened. UTah is going to shop around. But we have the advantage of being able to offer the most first round picks, which is what they’re going ot want.

Also, Brunson is not a bad defender. He’s small but he’s pretty decent especially with team defense.

Correct.

If we assume Robert Randolph knows anything, the current Knick offer is IQ, Rose, Fournier and five firsts. Very close to the trade I’m predicting, just that I think ultimately they give in on Grimes for Rose and that gets it done.

I’m just glad that at least one of IQ/Obi appears safe.

And how many of those firsts are ours versus ones we’ve acquired in trades?

And how many of those firsts are ours versus ones we’ve acquired in trades?

I assume it’s two from the Knicks and three of their acquired picks (presumably the protected Detroit, Washington and Milwaukee picks).

Essentially it’s three Knick firsts, since #11 became those three protected picks, so that a trade of three picks could now be “five firsts” for soundbite purposes.

Of Obi, Grimes, and IQ, Quickley is probably the one I’d be most comfortable moving in such a deal. He’s more duplicative of Brunson and Mitchell, and I feel like the other guys have higher ceilings. And/or that IQ can’t reach his ceiling if he’s not a point guard, and this team does not view him as one.

Though if Rose and IQ both go in the trade, is Deuce now the backup PG? I am skeptical that would happen.

Though if Rose and IQ both go in the trade, is Deuce now the backup PG? I am skeptical that would happen.

Yeah, I am very skeptical that Ainge takes Rose in the end. I think it’ll be IQ, Grimes, Fournier and five firsts. His “win” will be getting Grimes in place of Rose.

If we assume Robert Randolph knows anything, the current Knick offer is IQ, Rose, Fournier and five firsts. Very close to the trade I’m predicting, just that I think ultimately they give in on Grimes for Rose and that gets it done.

I’ve been told Cam isn’t worthless in trades. How about Fournier, Quick, Cam, 2 unprotected NYK picks and 3 protected?

Strat, the stats seem to indicate that Brunson is an average defender, is that true? I don’t watch the Mavs as much as you do, so your opinion is probably more accurate than mine.

“Strat, the stats seem to indicate that Brunson is an average defender, is that true? I don’t watch the Mavs as much as you do, so your opinion is probably more accurate than mine.”

I’m not going to criticize his defense because he works as hard on that end as he does on offense. He’s OK as PGs go even though he’s undersized. My problem is not with him or Mitchell as individuals. It’s the combination of both being undersized and RJ actually being small at the SF position. We are going to win a lot of games on talent. but imo there will be matchups (like the Celtics) where we are going to look like a bunch of kids playing against men.

but imo there will be matchups (like the Celtics)

then don’t trade Fournier. Problem solved.

then don’t trade Fournier. Problem solved.

Hahaha. The Celtics killer.

Thibs: “Evan, you have just one task this season, just be ready for those 4 games” LOL

Knick grief is different. It’s acceptance, but still complaining about it even though you’ve accepted it.

definitely the bargaining stage LOL.

I’m trying to comfort myself with several thoughts.

1. Mitchell is better than Melo. But honestly, I think that’s debatable. They’re basically the same caliber of player. Good all-stars that can get you to the playoffs. Mitchell has had Gobert his whole career but Melo did have Camby, KMart, Billups, etc..on his nuggets team that went to the WCF. So I don’t know. But Mitchell is younger than Melo was when we traded for him.

2. We do not have a max player like Amare on our team. Yeah Brunson and Mitchell might be redundant or problematic defensively because of their size. But Stat was 29 years old when we signed him and his knees were dust. He basically gave us nothing after his first season.

3. Unless Leon goes crazy, we should have more assets left after a Mitchell trade to still make moves. Donnie had already traded away some first rounders to clear cap for 2010 free agency. Once we traded for Melo we had no young players left except Shump and Fields and only one first rounder (that we later traded for Bargs). Right now we have 11 first rounders in our arsenal over the next 7 years and still a lot of second rounders too. We could trade four or five first rounders and still be able to draft players over the next few years. This doesn’t have to be the final iteration of our team, unlike the post Melo trade where we did not have a lot of moves left on the table.

4. We have a front office in place that has done well finding talent later in the draft.

5. We have a defense first coach. Say waht you want about Thibs, he can bring out the best defensively in teams.

>Edit: I’m positive that neither Brunson, nor Donovan, can be as bad as Fournier.<

I won't argue with that. 🙂

Everyone knows my preference. IMO you should build a team with the goal of creating a top defense and occasionally accept a weaker defender if he's an elite offensive player or fills an important need. IMO we are going to overpay for Mitchell and create a Knicks team that's going to struggle on defense. We are also going to use all our excess assets in the process.

I'm fairly high on our young players and patient enough to wait out their development. IMO, we need an upper tier two way SF or upper tier two way stretch PF, not an undersized SG. IMO, we should wait for the "fat" pitch. There are going to be more pitches. There are every year. In the mean time I think we could get some surprise developments from the young players we already have over the next couple of years, maybe even this year.

>but imo there will be matchups (like the Celtics)

then don’t trade Fournier. Problem solved.<

Good laugh.

You are keeping me from drinking early today. 🙂

Is Luka a good defender? Brunson just made the conference finals with the same type of player.

To be fair, Cyber, the only reason they didn’t get eliminated in rd 1 is Donovan’s terrible defense.

According to RAPTOR, which is nice because it allows you to see playoff & regular season numbers, Luka played very good defense (3.2) in the playoffs. On the other hand, Donovan was horrendous (-4.5).

Maybe ptmilo is right and Mitchell dogged it this year, he seemed pretty unhappy with Utah. He was stellar the previous 2 years in the playoffs and below average to passably bad on defense.

We gotta get Randle off this team. We are going to roll out 4 ball dominant guys and Mitch? It doesn’t make a lot of sense

Is Mitchell the grumpy one though? And not Gobert?

Are we giving Gober the benefit of the doubt because he’s the elite defensive guy and Mitchell is the scorer?

I mean, Gobert started covid for christ’s sake! Maybe he’s the jerk?

I don’t know. I’m grasping here. I agree, Deefense. I’d rather us wait for a better fit star player to come along because it is the nature of the NBA that these stars want to move every year now.

Melo was traded february 22nd 2011.
That day (and for the rest of the season) he was 26 year old.
When he came to the Knicks he was a 4 times All-NBA (3rd team in 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2008-2009 plus 2nd team in 2009-2010, when he went 6th in MVP voting, he was top-15 in MVP 3 other times and he was All-Rookie in 2003-2004).

Mitchell will play his first game of the year in october 2022, when he’ll be… surprise! 26 year old…
Donovan Mitchell has never been an All-NBA (he was All-Rookie in 2017-2018) and according to his BB-Ref page he never got a single vote for MVP.

Carmelo Anthony was perceived at the time, in NBA’s players and media circles, as a far better player than Mitchell is today (it’s true that metrics are more sophisticated now and many fans are “smarter”).

I HATED the Melo trade and was very vocal against it at the time (and today),
but no matter if one is Pro-Trade or Against-Trade, facts are facts.

Max, nobody is saying that Melo wasn’t much, much better than Mitchell is now (my new name for him just to spite Cyber).

But that’s actually my point. A bad trade, even for a superstar way better than Mitchell, can sink a team.

Why is everyone assuming that- for as good of a trade record that Ainge has- that he’s gonna fleece us the same way he fleeced a desperate T-Wolves that didn’t have the same quality of assets they were willing to trade as we have? If Ainge is rebuilding and Donovan doesn’t wanna stick around for it, we have more leverage than most believe

Yeah I think Melo’s rep took such a hit during the second part of his Knicks tenure that we now underrate how good he was when we traded for him.

Obviously he wasn’t Lebron or Durant but he was a top 10 player. He also rebounded very well, which is why he was able to slide over to a small ball PF so easily.

Melo led a team that went to the WCF took the eventual NBA champs to 6 games. I guess you could argue that Nuggets team had a better overall supporting cast than these Jazz teams but I don’t think Melo had one single player on those teams as good as Gobert is.

I actually think Mitchell is a step below what Melo was at the time.

Mitchell is an exciting player who can score 50 anytime, while Ja scores 52 and Clarke gets 10 put-backs due to blown coverages.

But exciting losses so there’s that! Bing bong!

(Glad you’re recovering, Max, and sorry this is where you’ve landed.)

Z-Man, I thought VERY hard about spelling it that way. And then decided today is going to be painful enough.

Also, Robert Randolph turning into a key Knicks insider was a plot twist I never would have predicted.

@Alan, if I have to bathe in this Egyptian river any longer I’m going to start growing gills

Why is everyone assuming that- for as good of a trade record that Ainge has- that he’s gonna fleece us the same way he fleeced a desperate T-Wolves that didn’t have the same quality of assets they were willing to trade as we have? If Ainge is rebuilding and Donovan doesn’t wanna stick around for it, we have more leverage than most believe.

lol dude if you don’t see what’s coming, it’s on you

Jowles, may I say that it feels kind of great to finally share your level of fatalism about this franchise?

Jowles, may I say that it feels kind of great to finally share your level of fatalism about this franchise?

fuck James Dolan (although this time, it might not be his fault)

Leon doesn’t care about draft picks — all of the draft picks are gone

I am not bullish on any of the Knicks’ young players but giving up the prospect of having any new homegrown talent for 3-5 years is pretty ugly

45-win ceiling for half a decade isn’t where I wanna be

Melo was better than Spida by quite a bit; let’s not kid ourselves or get all pissy at Phil Jackson and lose our brains.

IF this is just the three shitty protected firsts and IF it’s just Grimes and one of Obi/IQ and IF it’s just two unprotected Knick firsts, I would begrudgingly be ok with giving it a shot. (While at the same time thinking, as always, that they just should have punted the covid season and definitely exercised the 32, 18, and 11 picks they pissed away and that would have been higher anyway if they’d just played things right.)

But I don’t see any reason to think Ainge is going to be fooled by the “three [shitty protected] firsts.” He knows damn well they’re shitty protected firsts and not real firsts. It’s going to wind up being three real unprotected firsts. And the shitty protected firsts cost a real lottery pick, so the accounting when the dust settles is not going to look that great, IMO.

… most likely it’s going to be five firsts where the Jazz get to in some fashion pick the best one among the Knicks’ and the shitty protected firsts. And then the Leon shills will say, “Cheer up mate, it’s not so bad, we still have most of our firsts.”

I’ve flip flopped on Mitchell. Yesterday I was a no. Today I voted yes. Part of the reason is that a big trade is inevitable and this one is on the lower end of the risk scale. By low risk, I mean that what he brings is known without a lot of variability (think McDyess (will he recover), Marbury (will he become toxic), Bargs (will he give a shit)). In that sense Melo was the same. But the fact that Mitchell is nowhere near the talent or star level of 2011 Melo is why I trust Leon to not gut the team (or Dolan to interfere).

Why does Ainge hold all the cards?

We have all the picks, a ton of young players and just signed a big upgrade at PG. Utah just traded their best player and is in full rebuild mode. Mitchell will want out and the longer he stays (and Utah isn’t as good) the more disgruntled he will be. What other team has the picks that we have to trade?

Rose should theoretically be able to create some leverage. As best I can tell we were fully planning on trotting out this team without Mitchell, it would be awkward for the Jazz to bring him back after this, and the market for Mitchell doesn’t seem to be booming.

Our offer should be exactly one asset better than the runner up and not an inch better than that. I guess the primary competitor is Miami, who can offer three of their own firsts if they can get OKC to unprotect their 2025 pick, Herro, Jovic, and Robinson as salary.

What’s our offer that beats that, but not by too much?

Side note: I think we should view it as something of an indictment on Mitchell as a player that OKC could easily win these sweepstakes if they wanted to, but don’t view Mitchell as good enough to deviate from their plan.

I’ve flip flopped on Mitchell. Yesterday I was a no. Today I voted yes. Part of the reason is that a big trade is inevitable and this one is on the lower end of the risk scale.

Hello there, Bernie. Donovan Mitchell island welcomes you. 😀

Note: I see someone on a boat between the island and the shore, it must be Noble. ;D

This is GOT last season level bad.

And it feels inevitable. This is like the definition of Knicksy.

Side note: I think we should view it as something of an indictment on Mitchell as a player that OKC could easily win these sweepstakes if they wanted to, but don’t view Mitchell as good enough to deviate from their plan.

They have Giddey (19) and Shai (24), why would they want Donovan?

Melo was just barely more efficient before coming over. Plus Donovan actually passes the ball.

Still do not want him. Maybe could be convinced for the right package. The right package eing one that still enables us to trade for an actual superstar down the road. I’d still be skeptical it’s possible to cover Mitchell’s defense.

NY Times, 27 October 2006:

“Marbury-Francis Pairing May Decide Knicks Season”

“The motion-oriented offense, (Isiah) Thomas has reasoned, would eliminate any concerns about how two scoring point guards would share the ball. It is tougher, however, to dismiss the concerns on defense. Marbury is listed at 6 feet 2 inches, Francis at 6-3. One of them will have to defend shooting guards, most of whom stand between 6-5 and 6-8. ‘That will be the test,’ Thomas acknowledged recently…It was (Larry) Brown who pushed the team to acquire Francis. Brown suggested then, with great enthusiasm, that Marbury and Francis could be a modern-day version of the Knicks’ renowned backcourt of Walt Frazier and Earl Monroe….” (and so it goes).

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/27/sports/basketball/27knicks.html

“Nah, they both were pretty much right at the average:
Melo TS% .532/.548 vs league average .544/.543
Mitchell TS% .569/.573 vs league average .572/.566”

Efficient was the wrong word, but Melo’s volume scoring was more impressive in 2011 than Donovans is now. For reference, 12 players in 2011 scored 20 ppg, with Melo coming in at number 6. In 2022, 27 players hit that threshhold, with Donovan coming it at 9th. Just to be clear, I’m not trying to argue that one is necessarily better or worse than the other in a vacuum but more that Melo’s scoring was more impressive at the time than Spida’s should be today.

NY Times, 27 October 2006:

“Marbury-Francis Pairing May Decide Knicks Season”

“The motion-oriented offense, (Isiah) Thomas has reasoned, would eliminate any concerns about how two scoring point guards would share the ball. It is tougher, however, to dismiss the concerns on defense. Marbury is listed at 6 feet 2 inches, Francis at 6-3. One of them will have to defend shooting guards, most of whom stand between 6-5 and 6-8. ‘That will be the test,’ Thomas acknowledged recently…It was (Larry) Brown who pushed the team to acquire Francis. Brown suggested then, with great enthusiasm, that Marbury and Francis could be a modern-day version of the Knicks’ renowned backcourt of Walt Frazier and Earl Monroe….” (and so it goes).

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/27/sports/basketball/27knicks.html

God, I remember that trade so well. I was not a huge basketball fan at the time, but my godfather bought tickets for me, my dad, and himself soon after. It was perhaps my first unfortunate step on the pathway into the hopeless blackhole known as Knicks fandom.

If I had a time machine, I’d stop myself from going to that game.

I voted NO as well, but it’s conditional on what the deal actually is. I’d like the Knicks to keep Grimes out of it, but from what I’ve read, Utah seems to covet him. Maybe the Knicks can convince Ainge to take DRose instead b/c he can be flipped later for another pick? Probably not…

I think Mitchell is a very good player, but not a great one unless he rededicates himself to playing D . If the trade does go down, I hope Rose has some sort of side deal for Randle (or RJ, but I’d prefer Randle go), otherwise the starting lineup would be very talented but the fit would not likely be good, and could even be awful.

Report from a Utah beat writer: https://mobile.twitter.com/andyblarsen/status/1547610724733636608

Says 4 teams are in talks. Utah wants more picks and/or Grimes from NYK; more picks and Strus from Miami; OKC and Toronto aren’t close, OKC’s picks have no upside.

Depends on your opinion of Donovan. If you think he can regain his college defensive potential, sure he’s a star.

If you look at the most recent playoffs, he was unplayable.

If you take away the multi-year running DPOY, does DMitch look like a star? I’m skeptical.

It’s not about trading for a star, it’s a about trading for the right star.

Whether Mitchell is better than Anthony or not is kind of moot. The fact is, neither is/was a true superstar from a production standpoint. Anthony was, at least, a superstar from a PR standpoint, so it made a lot of business sense. This trade would be much more basketball-driven, it seems, because there’s just no equating the two from a marketability standpoint. A few first round exits in Utah simply doesn’t build the same cache as an NCAA title, two olympic tours, 4 all-nba teams, and a trip to the WCF.

here is one of the 4 proposed trades on espn+ (this is the knicks package)

New York receives:
Donovan Mitchell
Rudy Gay

Utah receives:
Evan Fournier
Cam Reddish
Obi Toppin
Miles McBride
Knicks’ 2023, 2025 and 2027 first-round picks
Mavericks’ 2023 pick (top-10 protected)
Wizards’ 2023 pick (top-14 protected)

I am honestly not sure how to vote because as everyone knows I think Leon Rose’s strategy is uncreative and bad. This would obviously be an enormous part of that strategy. We should’ve seized the opportunity to rebuild through the draft when we had the chance, etc etc etc.

If we really must accept that we’re not doing that, then I have to look at the realistic alternative to trading for Mitchell. To me, that looks like a lot more seasons like the 2021-2022 season. Maybe with Brunson we’re a little better and win 43 games instead of 37, but we’re not more than a play-in/low seeded playoff team regardless.

You’re right. It’s a bad plan, and it’s unlikely to work. Within that context, Leon has to consider dodging the morality issue and making the kind of aggressive move that Checketts and Grunfeld made when they acquired Sprewell.

Trading Randle to Charlotte for Bridges, and then signing Bridges to an extremely team-friendly deal, gives him the kind of impossible return on an asset that he needs to make his plan work.

Bridges then makes Obi superfluous. Now you can package Obi, IQ, Grimes, and picks to get a real star. If you land the right star and surround him with Brunson, Barrett, Bridges, and Mitch… well now you’ve got a team.

It’s going to take something extreme like that to make his plan work. He’s certainly not going to get there making trades with Danny Ainge.

Also, it’s absolutely brutal that Julius Randle decided to obliterate all his trade value right before this happened.

I’d hate to include Obi in this deal because I think a Mitchell/Obi pairing is one of the few things that would be somewhat sensible on our roster after this trade.

Mitchell is a pretty damn good ball handler in the pick and roll–he was 4th in the NBA in PnR possessions per game and 14th in PPP (filtering out guys who barely play).

But if Randle is going to be here…I don’t know how or why we wouldn’t include Obi in the trade. The Brunson/Mitchell/Barrett/Randle fit is such a mess I wouldn’t be surprised if our win total is a less than the sum of its parts situation.

New York receives:
Donovan Mitchell
Rudy Gay

Utah receives:
Evan Fournier
Cam Reddish
Obi Toppin
Miles McBride
Knicks’ 2023, 2025 and 2027 first-round picks
Mavericks’ 2023 pick (top-10 protected)
Wizards’ 2023 pick (top-14 protected)

This seems like a fair deal (more than I’d pay, but likely what an NBA team would pay). It’s insane if Utah asks for more than this, which the beat writer was saying.

@TNFH **The Brunson/Mitchell/Barrett/Randle fit is such a mess I wouldn’t be surprised if our win total is a less than the sum of its parts situation.”**

Exactly. Someone must be shouting this in the Knicks front office, no? I mean if WE see it …?

Randle has to be included in the trade and I could see Ainge actually wanting him more than Fournier since he could play Randle, up his value, and flip him for even more picks.

Randle doesn’t make sense on this team with RJ and Brunson, he makes even less sense with RJ, Brunson, and Mitchell.

We need to do whatever we can to keep our youth and move Randle and Rose. They do not fit with Mitchell and Utah mainly wants picks anyway so I think they will undervalue our young guys in the trade.

4/5 picks+Randle+Rose is the very top of what I would offer. If that doesn’t get it done walk away.

pepper: here is a bobby marks proposed trade

Well, it’ll be hard to top that trade, and we shouldn’t try to.

“Breaking news reporter Robert Randolph really feeling his oats:

just heard.from BIG source If the Knicks get Mitchell for Fournier,Quickley, and 4-1st.
KD to Knicks will be acquired in a 3-4 team deal for Randle, RJ.”

Lol, dude talks all the time but has he ever actually given accurate news?

Mitchell isnt 6ft 1… he’s about 6ft 3 in shoes when he was drafted… likely slightly bigger now… the measurements floating out there is his height without shoes which circulated around when NBA teams had a fad of showing no-shoe measurements….

he does have a large wingspan with a standing reach that makes him effectively much bigger.. his steal/block rates are really good for his position…. his size is generally not why he’s seen as a bad defender….

Who is Robert Randolph? (Google doesn’t even seem to know the answer, unless he’s some pedal-steel guitar player who played at an NBA All-Star weekend once)

That’s exactly who he is. But for Knicks fans he’s more known, and cussed out, for making the Friday Night Knicks song.

https://youtu.be/2Vx28uirfRw

Undoubtedly he got said gig by being Dolan’s guitar buddy. I wouldn’t write him off immediately as a source, however unconventional.

“The plan obviously worked great.”

I’m a Knicks fan who started rooting for the team in the 2000s. If there’s anyone who knows just how low the expectations are around here, it’s me.

Having said that, I still think it’s reasonable to ask that we keep the champagne on ice and keep the Mission Accomplished banner wrapped up until we win one (1) playoff series.

Is that fair?

Reading this thread sounds like the passengers on the Titanic if it occurred in the social media age…

I’m just glad you now seem properly alarmed, Z-Man.

@wojespn
RFA center Deandre Ayton has agreed to a four-year, $133M maximum offer sheet with the Indiana Pacers, his agents Nima Namakian (Innovate Sports) and Bill Duffy (BDA Sports WME Sports) tell ESPN. The Phoenix Suns have 48 hours to match the largest offer sheet in NBA history.

Well, Ayton will not be part of any Durant deal. (Even if Phoenix matches, they can’t trade him for a while.) And now the Suns also can’t do a sign-and-trade with Indiana. (Which almost might have been to the Pacers benefit, as now they have to find a way to get Turner off the team.)

Wow, Indy offers the max to Ayton. Good move maybe?

Well, Ayton will not be part of any Durant deal.

And our offer is again the best offer on the table. 🙂

ess-dog, they can’t do a sign-and-trade now. Ayton signed the offer sheet. Phoenix has only two options now: let him walk for nothing, or match it, and then the earliest he can be traded is January 15, and not to the Pacers. (Woj also suggests Ayton would have veto power after Jan 15; unclear if this is specific to the contract language or just something in the CBA regarding the first season after an offer sheet.)

feel like the overall zeitgeist here is a bit too negative. i don’t think the current roster complements him well, but there are fewer trade offs on both ends in a mitchell/brunson pairing than melo/amar’e. my biggest concern with mitchell is mostly how painful it was to watch him take critical plays off on defense in the playoffs — and not just this year . he is like 30x the natural defender that booker, lavine or beal are but you rarely see those guys go full matador in the playoffs (reg season, sure, especially beal) as blatantly as donovan has. room to hope for a minor miracle, at least.

i’m still not violently against. depends on the deal.

If we’re wedded to nautical analogies, I’d make this more like The North Water (*), where ownership and senior management agree ahead of time to intentionally turf the ship into an iceberg for the insurance money.

That plan, too, was executed perfectly.

(*) Great novel, great BBC mini-series.

Actually, I take back what I said before re: Phoenix’s options. Per Bobby Marks, they still have a few hours to not totally screw this up:

@BobbyMarks42
Because the clock to match doesn’t start until midnight, both sides still have time work out a sign-and-trade before the offer sheet is officially signed.

Bizarrely, SNY claims the Knick offer earlier this week was three firsts and Mitch in a sign and trade. That’s muuuuuuch different, right? How odd.

Mitch since signed his deal, so can’t be traded this offseason.

Plus, we should still have some if not all of our protected picks leftover, so we can still draft young talent after this trade.

MItch might score a lot of points on put backs LOL.

If a Mitchell trade does lead to Randle leaving then, well, I will revise my opinion about a Mitchell trade (which is already in the “whatever” stages, so not much more room to go up!).

https://nypost.com/2022/07/13/a-donovan-mitchell-trade-could-backfire-on-knicks-scout/

I dont see the rush to make any move now and feels like we would be bidding against ourselves considering some of the packages.

Let a disgruntled Donovan play a season without Gobert covering the entire defense and I bet his value will be lower than it is now.

Julius & RJ 28 USG%
Brunson 21 USG%
D-Mitch 31 USG%

If they all stick to their good shots and cut out their bad shots this could really be something!

Julius & RJ 28 USG%
Brunson 21 USG%
D-Mitch 31 USG%

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WShMzwT-nM

It’s going to be hilarious when we trade young players like IQ and Obi plus a ton of draft picks for Donovan Mitchell, and Thibs doesn’t play him because of his defense.

That’s an awesome bit. So good that I just tweeted it. 🙂 Crediting you, of course. 😉

okay then, 60/40 split nay over yay…

without knowing any details of the trade, cuz like it ain’t happened and all, difficult to know…

just speaking from an on-court basketball perspective, size concerns – no way to even know if julius would remain once the deal begins, but, yeah we’ll need to have a really good defensive four and five available to use…

it’s tough, i’m just now getting used to the thought of brunson with the ball in his hand most the time…it’s been sooooo long since i’ve watched the knicks use a traditional point guard…

judging from the end of the seson, it “seems” clear that if julius remains his usage will go way down…it seemed like they were increasing RJ’s usage…throw in donovan, fudge, no doubt a 45 win team, but – julius and donovan are turnover machines, like everyone else i hate watching sloppy basketball…

the thought of julius and now donovan “cooking” with the ball, possession after possession does not excite me…

good thing is, i do trust both brunson and RJ with the ball in their hands…it’ll be interesting to see where things sit come training camp in a couple of months…

BTW, if the Knicks do get Mitchell, won’t Miami go all-in on Durant?

Is tonight Grimes’ last game as a Knick?

I like absolutely none of what is quoted from that article, you guys.

Shams Charania, when asked about trade talks between Utah and New York on the NBA TV broadcast, says he “expects this to be a dance that plays out over the next two-to-three weeks or the rest of the offseason.”

I feel like the overall zeitgeist here is a bit too negative.

I don’t think it’s negative enough. If I may beat the Titanic analogy to death, it’s like there’s a poll saying “should we steer away from the iceberg” and the results are split. Some people think the hull won’t be torn too bad. One guy thinks crashing into the iceberg was always the plan. And swifty (bless his heart) wants to know why no one thinks “maybe the iceberg should be afraid of us, am I right?”

That would be an outrageous return for a third tier star

I would rather have Grimes

Ainge doesn’t have to fleece us for this to be a bad trade… I mean don’t the economics of this go something like this? Mitchell’s trade value = his value to whatever team can best utilize him. If the Knicks aren’t the team that can best utilize him, both in terms of their position on the win curve and their roster composition, then a fair trade is already a crap trade for the Knicks in the same way a bargain on an ice cream cone isn’t so great if you’re not in the mood for ice cream since all you’re really buying there is sticky fingers.

You can’t just throw players into the freezer and thaw them out when your team is ready to take advantage. Players get older, their contracts cost money… Rostering any veteran is a huge risk because you use massive resources (cap and sometimes trade pieces) on something that you’re lucky if it keeps up its value. The risk is less for younger players but where is the upside? The only one is this hope of luring a true star, and I think that’s a fantasy for a team like the Knicks. I mean 20 years now the KNicks have been trying to go that route. How much evidence that it’s foolish do we need to collect ?

Melo changed his mind on the leverage, though (he said he would sign in Brooklyn, too), and that’s why the Knicks were ultimately fucked.

The Knicks tried to win at basketball by assembling a critical mass of guys who missed tons of shots and had neck tattoos, and the actual extent of the progress after more than a decade is this time they’re trying no neck tattoos.

***Melo changed his mind on the leverage, though (he said he would sign in Brooklyn, too)***

That was after leveraging Denver into trading him (they didn’t want to), and was leverage to get New York to act at the deadline rather than waiting for the off-season to just sign him outright. Point is: Rose was driving Anthony to New York no matter what, he wasn’t goingk anywhere else. And now Ainge is at the wheel with Rose in the trunk, a full tank of gas and a half-pack of cigarettes. (No iceberg in this metaphor, sorry. There is literally nothing in his way, not even a toll-booth or a “work-zone fines doubled” sign.)

So our offer is much better than Presti’s or Ujiri’s and somewhat better than Riley’s. I know who I think are the quality GM’s here.

Hubert you are describing a typical car salesman. That’s Danny.

He got inside a couple of times but the fact that Grimes has been getting to rim fairly regularly makes Deuce look bad by comparison. McBride’s future is as the guy who Thibs puts in for one defensive possession every other week.

Nicos, you’re just jealous cuz he’s cute and has way better hair. 9-13 for 23 is good (w 5 rebs and 5 assts), and he had a few good penetrations for layups.

So lonely on Deuce Island…

(Hey, is that the Titanic I see sailing by in the distance…? Hi guys!)

Jazz beat writers and the Salt Lake Tribune are publicizing deals that are lopsided in favor of their franchise, this is something we’ve never seen before, right? LOL

Just relax, guys, it’s a negotiation. And no one is a sucker for negotiating. You’re only a sucker if you make the (bad) deal.

“Jazz beat writers and the Salt Lake Tribune are publicizing deals that are lopsided in favor of their franchise, this is something we’ve never seen before, right? LOL”

But how would that benefit the Jazz? The Jazz benefit the most if there’s actual competition for a trade, in this case if the Heat or OKC or anyone else joins the race and it becomes a bidding war. By claiming such a prohibitive price it effectively takes away some of those competitors, for example, the Heat can’t even possibly offer 6 1sts because they literally are not allowed by the rules with their current draft capital. I don’t see how Ainge would benefit from a report like this, specially since the actual negotiations are obviously going on behind the scenes as we speak and reports from the media are unlikely to sway a team to make an inquiry one way or another.

What, no deal yet? Shame on all y’all…

rama: I don’t know if I can stay a fan. I see Donnie Walsh being trumped by a bunch of dipshits who got Melo to NY in exchange for any hope of building a championship team…and ruined any joy in rooting for this team as well. It’s way too much to give up. Dolan is an idiot and/or still being counseled by that snake Isaiah. And now Melo gets NY and his max deal, and we get years of second round exits.

Can we all really root for second round exits for years? Year after year of futility? I don’t know. truly. This might be it for me, after a fucking decade of hoping for a change.

If only current me could travel back in time and tell myself that it will be even worse then I thought…I did bail until they got the T-1000, but it was still not worth it…

It is kind of funny to read this tweet from Woj back then from a Donnie Walsh ally:

Donnie Walsh ally says of steep price paid for Melo: “This is all Dolan. All Isiah. All (Worldwide) Wes and Leon Rose…”

If I may beat the Titanic analogy to death, it’s like there’s a poll saying “should we steer away from the iceberg” and the results are split. Some people think the hull won’t be torn too bad. One guy thinks crashing into the iceberg was always the plan. And swifty (bless his heart) wants to know why no one thinks “maybe the iceberg should be afraid of us, am I right?”

the iceberg is simply there to add character to those who survive…

excellent way of putting it hubie – what would it take for us to win this deal…i think it’s safe to say adding donovan mitchell to your roster is a positive thing…can you imagine all the opportunities for mitch with jalen and donovan playing a 2 man game to the rim…donovan can pass…

gotta imagine his agents are trying to get through to thibs to let him know he’ll go all in on defense…

you’re right though about ainge hubie, he ain’t looking for no fair deal…

But how would that benefit the Jazz? The Jazz benefit the most if there’s actual competition for a trade, in this case if the Heat or OKC or anyone else joins the race and it becomes a bidding war. By claiming such a prohibitive price it effectively takes away some of those competitors, for example, the Heat can’t even possibly offer 6 1sts because they literally are not allowed by the rules with their current draft capital. I don’t see how Ainge would benefit from a report like this, specially since the actual negotiations are obviously going on behind the scenes as we speak and reports from the media are unlikely to sway a team to make an inquiry one way or another.

I agree, Bruno. So i see 2 explanations, one being the beat writers / media outlets think they’re helping, but in fact they’re not helping at all, or there’s only one team bidding (i think it’s this one) and for you to try to extract maximum value, you send some insane propositions to the public, to put some pressure on the other side.

I have to say i’m lowering what i think is the smartness level of this board, each day by a little, if you guys keep saying that the Melo deal is exactly the same as the (possible) Donovan deal.

There are ways it isn’t the same. Mostly because we whiffed on The Decision and blundered into a capped out low-IQ overrated team. Mitchell’s salary is locked in for 3 years at a reasonable number and he’s probably more rootable than Melo. But there are definite similarities. Mostly the dread of getting fleeced. Had the Melo deal involved 2 less pieces it might not have hurt quite as much.

Where i said “exactly the same” can be “analogous”. We are in a much different position now, we’ll keep at least 3 picks to trade, at the time we were left with no picks, and we’ll keep a healthy team around Donovan, at the time we didn’t have a team around Melo, we had the always injured Amare, old man Billups (which we amnestied in the offseason), Landry Fields and Ronny Turiaf. It’s “analogous” to what we’ll have around Donovan, for sure.

can you imagine all the opportunities for mitch with jalen and donovan…

Yeah he’ll probably lead the league in blocked shot attempts from all the guards we won’t be able to cover.

What’s the alternative? Hope that it crashes and burns so that Dolan can fire Leon and hire (not Masai)?