NY Post: Knicks fade late in loss to Jazz to end road trip with dud

this team seems headed to the Bill Parcells’ “you are what your record says you are” status…about a 25-35% win pctg squad…maybe some noise on that given covid and all the weird shit…but with a normal camp, fans in the stands (especially on the road)…it is very shaky..it is what is…rag tag cast offs and some youth..not a winning formula..oh and a coach that seems to be devoid of offensive ingenuity…

I have made a lot of bad decisions in my life but falling asleep at the start of the fourth quarter doesn’t appear to have been one of them…

I fell asleep in the fourth quarter last night. Did we have any discussion about Mitch’s tweet following the game? He tweeted, and then quickly deleted, “One day they’ll let me play.” And one of The Strickland guys has a thread about some of Mitch’s bad defensive habits creeping back in during the Portland game. He’s still our best defender, but it seems like he and Thibs could start beefing soon. Which would not be ideal.

The worst thing about Rivers having a big game was that it didn’t help us win, but solidified his position in the lineup ahead of Frank. IMO, Rivers is utterly pointless unless it leads to a trade, but I do not see a “Rivers” getting traded from NY at the deadline for an asset after he signed an attractive contract to be here and made a big deal about trying to help bring NY back. Rivers is a better overall player than the Frank of last year, but he does nothing really well and is as good as he’s ever going get. Frank deserves one last shot to show if he improved his offense in the offseason before we trade him or let him go.

Is Obi on some sort of minutes restriction? I don’t get why he’s not getting more run, even with his lack of D. If D is the K to TT, then Frank should be getting burn

From the Macri newsletter today:

According to multiple sources, not only Rose, but Ball and Oubre Jr are on the Knicks radar, in addition to Cavs center Andre Drummond and Rockets guard Victor Oladipo. I had previously heard DeMar DeRozan’s name come up in connection to New York, but have since heard that he is not a focus.

You’ll immediately notice some commonalities. With the exception of Rose, who is 32, all four players are between 23 and 28 years of age and theoretically in or entering their prime. None of Cleveland, Houston and New Orleans are contending teams, and yet all have payrolls between $131 and $133 million. While Golden State may fancy itself a threat in the West, they have a league-high $174 million in committed money. Last but certainly not least, all of these guys are on expiring contracts.

Here’s my guess: The Knicks are looking to capitalize on a team desperate to shed payroll and inherit talent for a cheaper price in assets than it otherwise would cost.

I do not love any of those names.

Alan:
From the Macri newsletter today:

I do not love any of those names.

All the names are creepy, just creepy… (facepalm)

We didn’t extend Frank. Unless everyone gets injured again and he goes supernova, he’s gone.

Might be a trade. Might be FA. But unfortunately it just doesn’t make sense to play him anymore.

As for the list of trade targets, we better be getting a 1st for those salary dumps. Yuck.

I might trade Randle to Houston for Oladipo just to fuck with the Mavs chances.

one other thing to consider with these rumors that if we basically punted on our 2nd rder…. and we’re trying to be buyers this year…. this could also mean bad things for our picks this year… meaning they could be used to get a vet….

which would be pretty terrible…

If Alan’s right and we are considering these players because we think we can gain by helping some teams reduce salary, I’m not sure that’s being a buyer. Are we getting talent at distressed prices or are we taking in unwanted contracts? It looks more like the latter to me.

Whatever you think of Frank and there’s no reason to turn this into a Frank thing, it looks now like he lost his minutes in the rotation because of injury, which is kind of a quintessential lame-ass coaching move. Certainly no one played their way into those minutes, so it’s not like Wally Pipp or anything.

While I definitely agree that Frank should get minutes, the reason he HAD those minutes earlier is because Rivers was hurt. So he gained minutes because of someone else’s injury, and lost his own minutes because that person recovered and he himself got injured.

Tell you what – I think he would 10000x better in the starting lineup than Payton.
Then Rivers could get his minutes too.
I really just don’t understand the Payton love from Perry on down to Thibs.

RJ slowly matriculating towards hitting 30% of his 3s

The Mitch thing is pretty interesting because it really is unclear who he’s annoyed with. I guess the coaching staff but I think if you’d told any of us (and I assume Mitch) in preseason that he was averaging 30 minutes a game we would’ve been thrilled and assumed everything was hunky-dory. Best guess has to be assumed that it’s his role in the offense he’s worried about as it really has shrunk to almost comical levels. Among qualifying players his 11.5% USG is 7th lowest in the NBA and 2.5% Ast% is dead last. Both numbers are down quite a bit from already low levels last year. Also, though it’s not the kind of thing anybody here cares about Mitch has probably noticed that his PPG is actually lower this year despite all the extra minutes.

It’s not entirely clear what Mitch wants to have happen here – they probably could be dialing up a bit more PnR stuff but for all the choppy Instagram videos of Mitch shooting 3s he still doesn’t even look at the basket if it’s as much as one dribble away. I definitely wouldn’t mind them running the occasional dribble hand-off look or quick hitting post-up for Mitch even as purely a developmental measure but right now Mitch catches the ball at the free throw line and rather than taking one power dribble and making a move to the cup he rotates in a circle until he can find someone to throw it to. I kind of doubt that’s by coaching staff dictate (we’ve seen Noel take the occasional runner or jumper) and given that those guys really do seem to have made good progress on Mitch’s foul issue I’m hesitant to be too critical.

Yeah I don’t really know what The Knicks should do right now as far as trades. I’d be down with getting rid of Elf and trying another starting PG out but who out there is really available that would be a clear upgrade. Ball has the development potential still, I guess, but the shooting is just as bad as Elf, so its not moving the needle. I’d much rather just give Quickley the starting job and see what happens. Then let Frank be the back up PG and shoot Elf to the moon. And I’m inclined to keep Randle for next year too, so that eliminates in my mind probably our biggest trade chip.

The team is improved but the offense is ugly at times. We need more shooting. But right now unless we’re taking on one of these contracts to get back some future assets, I don’t really see the point in any of them.

I mean in the Portland game Mitch was jumping up and down alone under the hoop more than once trying to get one of his teammates to throw him the ball for an easy bucket.

I think Randle’s emergence as a point forward has come at Mitch’s expense to some extent. He’s basically taken over playmaking duties for Payton (which is what renders Payton such a bad fit in the starting lineup–he’s largely a one dimensional playmaker in a starting lineup in which playmaking duties belong to someone else), and without having looked at the numbers it definitely feels like fewer of his assists go to Mitch than Payton’s did last year. This makes sense intuitively, as a lot of Randle’s assists are on kick outs and handoffs, which aren’t conducive to the kinds of plays Mitch uses (dives to the rim, basically) to score.

This isn’t a problem with any clear solutions, but so long as Payton is playing we’re really wasting the skills he does have by not running PNR with him and Mitch more frequently. As has been discussed ad nauseam, we should also be running more RJ/Mitch PNR.

This is part and parcel of the more general skepticism I have about Randle as a core piece. You maximize his value by giving him a good share of playmaking duties, but that also means fewer such opportunities for other playmakers if you have them (which is very much up in the air for us, hence me not having much of a problem with Randle’s current role).

I would be all for starting Frank and letting RJ and Randle to 80% of the ballhandler responsibility, and Frank the other 20%. Better defender than Payton, better shooter than Payton. If you’re not going to start IQ, then Frank makes a lot more sense with that lineup where the crappy shot creation that Payton brings is even less useful than it would be with another group.

Man, we are not in a position to be buyers particularly for guys like Oubre and Oladipo and Drummond. Oladipo had one awesome season 3 years ago when he put up a BPM of 5.8 but he hasn’t come close to that since and he currently has a BPM of -0.9. He also isn’t a good shooter so he doesn’t help our spacing at all.

Oubre’s just a bad player, period. He puts up decent counting stats on bad teams but that’s about it. GSW is the best team he’s ever been on and he’s been garbage this season. He also can’t shoot so he doesn’t help our spacing at all.

Drummond is fine but we already have 3 other centers on this team that do the same basic things he does so he would be pointless and would just take minutes away from Mitch. He also can’t shoot so he doesn’t help our spacing at all.

Derrick Rose sucks after his mini-renaissance the last two years. His shooting numbers have cratered again this season hitting only 45% of his shots at the rim. He literally quit on the team last time he was here and, again, he can’t shoot so doesn’t help our spacing.

Lonzo’s ok and he’s still young enough that he could improve but unless NOP is trading him for basically nothing than we’re overpaying. He also can’t fucking shoot and doesn’t help our spacing.

The only trades we should be looking at are ones that ship out guys like Rivers, Burks, Payton, and whoever else for draft picks or young players that have shown any sort of promise. We shouldn’t be trading for players that Thibodeau wants because, as he showed in Minnesota, he’s a terrible judge of talent and can’t build a winning team as GM (he gave a max contract to Andrew fucking Wiggins!). If we’re actually looking to bring in players he wants than the entire front office and coaching staff should be fired today.

They seem to be doing a good job with RJ. Maybe that’s easier because RJ has viewed himself as the next Kobe since he was 12 and has a shield of self confidence made from vibranium

I definitely think this is a factor for Mitch. Most young guys you see pretty consistently doing 10% more than they should on offense. This hurts their production in the short-term but probably helps their development because they’re constantly stretching themselves and finding the exact limit of what they can and can’t do.

Mitch has never done that – he has always stuck to exactly the thing he does better than just about anybody, which is catch the ball in the radius of the basket and dunk it. That definitely led to him being very productive right out of the gate but maybe it’s hurting his development. We can talk about the coaches and guys looking for him (and both things are valid) but he currently takes advantage of literally 0% of the opportunities available to him to stretch himself on offense (they do exist) and as long as that’s the case it’s hard for me to point the finger at everybody else.

thenoblefacehumper

I agree with everything in your last post.

To be clear though, assume we actually had a good PG and the playmaking shifted away from Randle a bit. That would be fine by me. I don’t think we are necessarily maximizing Randle’s value by allowing him to pile up assists. That’s just changing the boxscore numbers and who’s getting the credit. Personally, I’d way rather have Randle handle the ball less, focus on efficient scoring and rebounding and make a play if he gets doubled, He’d get fewer assists, but he’d have fewer TOs, and he and the team would be more efficient with a good PG running the show. I don’t care what his BPM is. I just want to use him right given who we have on the team and maximize that team output. For now, he has to make more plays.

RJ’s 3 point shot looked true last night. I can see All Star games in his future if this continues.

You seem to always just blow past this point when taking another swing at the individual-stats-bad piñata, but you do realize that if “using him right” resulted in less turnovers and more assists, it could actually result in his BPM (or whatever boxscore-based statistic you want to look away)?

The idea is to maximize team output.

Randle has become a playmaker in NY because we have poor PG play and because we have so few good offensive options he gets double teamed a lot and can make an occasional play out of that. He’d probably only be a 3rd option on a really good team, never see a double team, and not be asked to make as many plays. We are in the unfortunate situation of asking him to do things he should NOT be doing only because we are so bad in other areas. If his BPM or whatever says doing more is making him a better player, that’s idiotic. He’s the same player with the same skills either way. His role on the team may just vary depending on the skills of the other players on the team and how they are trying to maximize the team output. That’s all I’m saying.

That’s not a guy you can pay $20M AAV and expect to contend. We don’t have to use our imaginations here, you’re describing the 2018-2019 version of Randle. That guy was pretty good, but the difference between him and the Kanters of the world wasn’t nearly big enough to justify a contender paying him handsomely.

I’m not sure what Randle is worth, but the fact that he’s capable of making plays out of a double team or off a drive makes him a better player than Kanter regardless of whether he’s piling up those extra assists in the boxscore or not. It means if you need him to do that for whatever reason (injury to another player, makeup of the team, in a specific lineup etc..) he can do it. Kanter cannot. That’s part of what you would be paying for. You aren’t just paying for his boxscore.

I remember when D’Antoni asked Kobe to play PG for a few games because both Nash and the backup were hurt. Kobe showed he could get 10 assists a night if that’s what you wanted or needed. Jordan could have done the same thing if Pippen was out, but their role in the triangle was to score and for the playmaking to be more spread out.

some others have mentioned obi’s play of late before but if you exclude the first game of the season obi’s 2p fg% is 65%…. the thing that’s killing him right now is the lack of ftr (16% over the same span) which is directly related to a still too high 3pr (35%)…

everything else actually looks pretty good so he’s definitely still got a chance if he can refocus his game in the paint area and mix it up inside.. he’s not even all that good from 3p territory to be shooting that much anyway…..

You realize that “maximizing team output” is about scoring more points than you allow your opponent to score, right? And that’s directly related to turning possessions into points, forcing your opponent to turn fewer possessions into points, and creating a possession disparity between you and your opponent, right? And that’s measured by stats like TS% and TOV%, right?

Obviously. These stats are not disastrously wrong. They are simply not very accurate in many cases and pretty darn bad in a handful. I am describing one problem.

To maximize the team level output it may be beneficial to reduce the role of some players and increase the role of others depending on their individual skills and the makeup of the team. That could impact some player’s individual stats negatively and others positively. Those individual fluctuations related to ROLE are not always captured properly by things like BPM, WS48, etc.. Those models can’t weed out what a player is capable of doing well from what his role on the team was (maybe he was asked to do too much and it hurt his stats, maybe he was doing less than he was capable of because of all the talent on the team, maybe he was benefitting or being hurt because of the skills or lack thereof of teammates ) .

When Chris Bosh joined Miami he didn’t suddenly become a worse player than he was in Toronto. He was actually probably better at some things. His BPM and PER went down because his role was reduced and changed. I think you have to try to get past the numbers. We often do here anyway.

That list of names is concerning but not surprising if you assume Rose’s mandate is not ‘a future we can believe in’ but is ‘a now Dolan isn’t embarrassed about.’

I’ve been seeing some worrisome Derrick Rose rumors. Yikes! I would rather offer Randle, Burks’ expiring, Bullock’s expiring and both 1sts in this upcoming draft for Beal than do that. Quickley will NEVER see the floor if Rose brought Rose in lol. Me no likey.

djphan:
some others have mentioned obi’s play of late before but if you exclude the first game of the season obi’s 2p fg% is 65%…. the thing that’s killing him right now is the lack of ftr (16% over the same span) which is directly related to a still too high 3pr (35%)…

everything else actually looks pretty good so he’s definitely still got a chance if he can refocus his game in the paint area and mix it up inside.. he’s not even all that good from 3p territory to be shooting that much anyway…..

The problem continues to be that if you exclude the first game of the season he’s still on like 90 minutes played total. We’re just trying to draw from such ridiculously small samples right now because his minutes and role are so tiny. Last night he had one (1) nice post move and one (1) smooth looking jumper and threw one (1) nice looking pass so everything is right in Obi-land today but who the hell can say anything based on that. The guy needs to play.

@Owen

“Dank meme” is actually just a bunch of Germans thanking the memes as part of the meme magic ritual.

But actually memes are dank like marijuana is dank – very strong smelling and potent (which, yea, implies that the marijuana stinks, but in a good way). In other words, memes are dank if they stank soooooo good

The problem continues to be that if you exclude the first game of the season he’s still on like 90 minutes played total.

you can infer some things in small samples… and the prudent approach is to wait but it’s not the same thing as saying we know nothing about obi at this time…

and we do know some things about his game…. that’s because things like shotmix do converge in small samples… and that portends bad things…. but it’s also not too late for an intervention to occur or some light bulb to turn on for obi to change that… but make no mistake.. it is going to have to change….

Ok, I get it. I am with the teenagers. They are funny.

If we’re still parsing the social media habits of young Mitch and trying to glean anything from them, he just posted to his IG story a clip of the Clippers swinging the ball around with the caption “ball movement”

This was followed by a video of a Dodge pulling up behind a Lamborghini and doing a burnout.

Hubert:
apropos of nothing, is anyone here paying attention to this gamestop shit? I’ve got such blog envy right now. If the Knicks ever get good and we get 2.4 million members, we should totally pump a stock up together.

Two of my former students, who are obviously gamers, DMed me on LinkedIn, to tell me that they were part of this. A new and better way to level up.

apropos of nothing, is anyone here paying attention to this gamestop shit? I’ve got such blog envy right now. If the Knicks ever get good and we get 2.4 million members, we should totally pump a stock up together.

There’s a subreddit called ‘Wall Street Bets’ that’s basically a large group of amateur day traders that share memes with one another. I started following it about a year ago and it was mainly about day trading Tesla and Nio stock. Over the past few months they started sharing a bunch of memes about investing in ‘zombie’ stocks like Blackberry, AMC, Blockbuster, and Gamestop. From what I can tell, none of this started with any kind of organized plan to pump and dump or for a short squeeze. It really began as an internet joke that morphed into a runaway train.

Owen:
Yeah, I woke up this morning and three people had texted me about AMC. It’s a bubble.

I mean, it’s all a bubble, innit?

Without watching a ton of film, it’s hard to tell how much of the issue with Mitch is defenses taking things away, how much is Mitch, and how much is our playmakers. It could be a little of everything.

If your center is unguarded under the basket it is 0% his fault that he’s not being passed the ball. A huge man unguarded at the rim is the best shot in basketball. Obviously Mitch is limited in the types of shots he can take and make, but he is by far the best shot maker on the team and we should be trying to get him more shots on offense.

as for his being immature, Mitch has been the best player on the Knicks for 3 years making 1.5 million a season. Taj Gibson makes more money than Mitch. Almost any player in his situation is going to be mad that he’s not getting points because points equals money in this league.

in before strat says something something bretton woods, zman asks what a stonk is, and jowles tells a rollicking story about doing lines with david wetherell’s niece outside a sparsely attended george gilder lecture at the las vegas convention center during comdex 2002

Gamers run the world now, Illuminati and Rothschilds taking massive L’s

Stonks go up, Knicks go down

I’m not exactly sure what stonks are but i guess we can come up with something similar about the Knicks.
Stocks+Knicks= Stinks
I’ve bought many ARivers stinks yesterday during halftime.
By the end of the game i was a rich man!

It is so rare to find close to 100% consensus here on Knickerblogger, yet I’m not sure there’s a single person thus far who would argue now that we made the right call in picking Obi over Hali. I’m hoping the long game proves us wrong, but so far… sigh…

(Though I do love Quickley, and believe there is no way we would have taken him if Hali was the pick at 8.)

ESPN finally released Real Plus-Minus numbers for the season so far. It’s really, really noisy this early in the season (Patty Mills and Wayne Ellington are top 20 players so far, Anthony Davis is not). ESPN’s page for it is complete garbage, there’s no way to sort anything. I don’t know why it isn’t just added to their regular stats page. The first Knick on the list is Burks who’s ranked 88 overall with 0.99; Randle’s right behind him at 92 with 0.94. Quickley’s 3rd best on the team, 0.59. Those are the only 3 players with a positive RPM.

Other Knicks of note: Mitchell Robinson -1.3; RJ Barrett -1.37; Obi Toppin -1.99; Knox -2.03.

ptmilo:
in before strat says something something bretton woods, zman asks what a stonk is, and jowles tells a rollicking story about doing lines with david wetherell’s niece outside a sparsely attended george gilder lecture at the las vegas convention center during comdex 2002

This is a criminally underrated comment.

Also, if I may meta-blog, people have been really good this season. “Invisible Sixth Man” will be a reference here for a long time.

Bo Nateman gets the W on the coinage, a bit sad that Zzzman didn’t stick

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
Bo Nateman gets the W on the coinage, a bit sad that Zzzman didn’t stick

Nor did THC-J, damn shame

Z-man: Nor did THC-J, damn shame

Rick from Big Mouth voice: “Whatcha gonna do?”

The War of the Roses:

Leon Rose’s desire for a big name superstar versus Derrick Rose’s inherent shittiness.

wow, now they banned the group for violations of community guidelines. They’re saying it has nothing to do with fucking over wall street, it’s because they’re racist.

The snake is now eating its tail.

reddit and discord didn’t ban wsb……

If there was a fan reaction data base stat generator Knox would have easily been the King of OMG and WTF stats

Watching some of RJ’s shots over the last couple weeks, and the shot that stands out is his floater from 10 feet or so— he has really good touch on it now. Did he have that in his bag last year?

Pretty sure RJ and Rivers got together and performed a forbidden ceremony from the Malleus Maleficarum that stole Quickley’s floater so they could use it for themselves. Also explains why Quick couldn’t hit for shit yesterday.

Fun “Not Fun at all” Fact
Right after the Sac-Nyk game YouTube proposed me a 1min predraft info video by Sacramento Kings of Obi Toppin…
Fuccccck You Tube!!!!

What is even the point of trading for Derek Rose? He doesn’t even pair up with our team well when healthy and on top of his game. We need outside shooters, not another guy whose game will make our spacing even more trash.

How did the Sixers cough up that lead? Nice game winner by Tobias though.

Regarding Maxey vs. Quickley, I agree with those who feel that Maxey has more theoretical upside, but I think Quickley is more likely to reach his peak as a player. He has a very simple no-frills game…but it all starts with shooting. In today’s NBA, shooting is indispensable, especially for a PG. I think Quickley has the bare necessities to play PG…average court vision, average passing, average (maybe below average) handle, below average burst…but he’s comfortable with who he is and plays within himself. He’ll add strength and maybe get to the rim a bit more, but that won’t be where he makes his living. The kid can shoot and can put up lots of points in a hurry when he gets hot. So far he’s been streaky, but you can tell he’ll be a good shooter. He just has it.

The underrated thing for me is his defense. He’s much better than I expected. He’s bigger and stronger than some reports made him out to be, and very long for his height. He’s very aggressive and knows angles and body positioning. Again, he uses his rather average tools very well in ways that don’t always show up in the box score. He cuts things off, helps and hedges, and contests without fouling.

Mavs about to take another L? Now you have my attention

If anyone thinks Pops is overrated, look at what he’s doing this year with a team something like the Knicks, maybe a little bit better on paper but not much.

Brian Cronin: Oh man, I’d love to hear someone argue against Pops’ greatness.

I won’t debate Pops’ acumen but to suggest the Knicks talent is on par with the Spurs…now please step away from the hash pipe…

Drummond would be a good fit in Brooklyn. Not sure if I would feel great as a fan about that. Or Adam Silver.

Signs of life from Edwards.

Zion had a great night from the field that will crush his adjusted plus minis looks like.

And yeah, that Spurs starting lineup- 35-59 from the field.

Looks like all of the top 3 draft picks are starting to show out. Wiseman going 3-3 from deep suggests that he’s more than a low post guy. LaMelo showing some restraint, 1 TO in 22 mins (albeit a game low -24 /-). Edwards with 25 pts on 19 shots, 5-8 from 3. Okoro also with a nice game.

This may turn out to be quite the draft class.

What should we be willing to give up for Bradley Beal?

TopOaf

I understand everything you are saying and generally agree with it. The difference (or maybe not) is that I think role DOES often impact the bottom line stats numbers. It’s not always an equal tradeoff between doing less of one thing and more of another/more efficient at another etc… So I think you have to subjectively analyze role and adjust your thinking at times. I also think at the team level, sometimes if an individual does less (and his BPM suffers a little), the team does better because it creates even better opportunities for others. I don’t think we are really disagreeing.

Guys, i’ve gone back to only lurking, because west coast trips are not for me, the games start at 3AM here in Portugal.
And sadly we’re on top of the pandemic numbers, leading the world in deaths by 1M population for 3 of the last 4 days. We’re doing worst than Italy in the beginning, but as we only have 10M population, and the totals aren’t so impressive as other countries, like the US and the UK, we’re not on the news (i think), but the status here it’s catastrophic.
Maybe in some weeks i get back to be active on the best Knicks forum of all.
In the meantime, it would say a lot about Leon Rose if we parted with an asset, no matter how low value, for any of the players Alan mentioned.

cybersoze:
Guys, i’ve gone back to only lurking, because west coast trips are not for me, the games start at 3AM here in Portugal.
And sadly we’re on top of the pandemic numbers, leading the world in deaths by 1M population for 3 of the last 4 days. We’re doing worst than Italy in the beginning, but as we only have 10M population, and the totals aren’t so impressive as other countries, like the US and the UK, we’re not on the news (i think), but the status here it’s catastrophic.
Maybe in some weeks i get back to be active on the best Knicks forum of all.
In the meantime, it would say a lot about Leon Rose if we parted with an asset, no matter how low value, for any of the players Alan mentioned.

Stay safe Cyber!

I hope the vaccine campaign will finally stall the spread of the virus and let everyone find relief, it’s been a long, sad, painful year…

I will take a caldo verde as my payment tyvm

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
I will take a caldo verde as my payment tyvm

I mean, at least ask for original Pastéis de Santa Clara.

there’s usually one or two “stalls” at the local sesh (cannabis “farmer’s market”) selling hash…

the people selling it usually look like they cooked that shit up in their bathtub (you know, I’m not really sure how hash is made, I don’t think I really even care – was definitely a big treat when I was a kid though)…yes, appearances do matter 🙂

so many other equally potent goodies available though these days, no real need to go that route…

usually I either eat a gummy, take a droplet of tincture or puff on a pre-roll…got some “moon rocks” (weed, weed distillate, and kief) though that I’d like to enjoy, need to look at picking up a nice sherlock holmes or maybe a gandalf pipe to smoke on it…

got a bong stored away, but, thinking my bong days are behind me…

oh man, just saw hiro is heading home to pitch…one of the slowest pitchers I’ve ever seen on the mound, but, really enjoyed watching him work…

he was a good yankee…

It’s a real shift to start thinking about building around him rather than or in tandem with RJ/Mitch.

I feel like you can’t build around all three of those guys. If Randle is going to be a long-term piece — and I’m not sure he should be, but I also don’t know what we could trade him for — we need more shooting, particularly a stretch 5 rather than a guy like Mitch who at the moment has no range.

Alan: I feel like you can’t build around all three of those guys. If Randle is going to be a long-term piece — and I’m not sure he should be, but I also don’t know what we could trade him for — we need more shooting, particularly a stretch 5 rather than a guy like Mitch who at the moment has no range.

I’d like to see a few more lineups with Randle at the 5, if nothing to get a sense of how the offensive end would be (and to test if they can be reasonably solid on defense).

pepper: Turkey

Also, Canada has a long hash tradition. If you ever make it to Quebec, it will come your way.

bidiong the not so great: My mother nannies them during the day and somehow being in the house with my sick sister and holding a baby that had it she never contracted it. I found that to be unbelievable

Lady Jowles’s boss apparently didn’t get it, but her husband and stepdaughter did. Two negative tests, but showing symptoms. Again, unbelievable.

oh man, just saw hiro is heading home to pitch…one of the slowest pitchers I’ve ever seen on the mound, but, really enjoyed watching him work…

he was a good yankee…

It’s downright infuriating that the Steinbrenner kids won’t go into the luxury tax. This team’s window is now and there’s never any certainty about how long that will last. Tanaka would fit perfectly in our current rotation of “Gerrit Cole and 4 dice rolls” and he wanted to come back.

You can factor this into your thinking about Randle…

It’s downright infuriating that the Steinbrenner kids won’t go into the luxury tax. This team’s window is now and there’s never any certainty about how long that will last. Tanaka would fit perfectly in our current rotation of “Gerrit Cole and 4 dice rolls” and he wanted to come back.

It’s down to just one kid now, right? RIP Hank. Or Hal. Never could tell them apart. Either way, yeah, we have the worst ownership in the sport. They need to sell.

I think you need to brace yourself for something that no one is talking about yet, but actually feels inevitable: they’re going to choose between paying Torres and Judge. And Judge will probably get traded bc paying Stanton $25mm to DH sucks.

PS remember when everyone bashed Derek Jeter for dumping the worst contract in the sport on his former team? He looks like the major winner of that trade now.

How comical is it to hear Yankee fans whine about their ownership/management being “the worst” when they are penciled into the post-season and have one of the highest payrolls in the league every year? Awww, poor babies, they might not be guaranteed World Series win #28, waaaaahhh!!!

How comical is it to hear Yankee fans whine about their ownership/management being “the worst” when they are penciled into the post-season and have one of the highest payrolls in the league every year? Awww, poor babies, they might not be guaranteed World Series win #28, waaaaahhh!!!

As a percentage of revenue, the Yankees have been 28th-30th in payroll since the next generation of Steinbrenners took over. In other words, they are not spending the money Yankee fans are giving them. Sounds like a pretty fair grievance to me.

I recently invested in the Volcano and it has been super so far.

the volcano is a really nice piece of gear – very very effective 🙂

my only issue with vaping on flower is that it can get really expensive fast…without question – consuming flower is probably the most costly way of using cannabis…

i was into the wax vaping (used pens) for a bit, but – it just gets really messy…i always laugh thinking of those folks who have those elaborate wax gear sets that require the use of a mini blow torch to get high…seriously, i can’t think of anything less conducive to kicking back than holding a blow torch in my hand while get faded…

As a percentage of revenue, the Yankees have been 28th-30th in payroll since the next generation of Steinbrenners took over. In other words, they are not spending the money Yankee fans are giving them. Sounds like a pretty fair grievance to me.

Yup. This is a team that makes their fans pay more than everyone else. They should either be spending more than everyone else, or putting their prices in line with the average cost.

brutal choice – but, if i had to choose one: i’m keeping torres over judge…

I wasn’t happy with the addition of stanton – especially after the issue with ellsbury…i mean, sure when stanton is healthy can help carry a ballclub – but – if anything has been demonstrated over the last couple of decades in baseball over and over again is that you can find ways to replace the value of one big bat…

very happy we kept lemahieu…i wish i was more excited about german coming back…

i’m okay with rolling with sanchez for another season…i think i actually trust higashioka more though right now…plus, maybe siegler has made a dramatic improvement at the plate…

Brian Cronin:
I found this part of that article odd, “This season, though, Randle has jacked his assist rate all the way up to 28.6 (TWENTY-EIGHT POINT SIX!) percent, giving him the eighth-highest single-season rate for any player with a center designation since the 1976 NBA-ABA merger.”

Randle is obviously a big, but he’s also obviously not a center, so…huh? It’s a minor point and doesn’t really change the article at all, it just struck me as odd.

Maybe a reference to one of the “notes” in the article?

One of them said:

“Randle has played 10 percent of his minutes this season at center, per Basketball-Reference.com.”

(I couldn’t find that number on Basketabll Reference, maybe it’s behind the paywall)

gonna head to amazon soon to order my gandalf pipe – i got one for you guys:

i’d like to also order a short 3 book (or so) series i haven’t enjoyed already…recently finished The Hunger Games, which i absolutely loved…

right now getting ready to re-read Darkly Dreaming Dexter (i’ve gone through about a six or so of the series) – any suggestions for an interesting book series:

something that perhaps ties in with a movie or tv show would be cool…hmmmmm, kind of wish there was a Spartacus: Blood and Sand book tie in 😛

just kidding, slightly…

i heard really good things about both the Odd Thomas and Wheel of Time series…Ringworld seems like it might also be interesting…

Now that I think of it there’s a TV tie-in too. The author is a character in the very fun and quirky Durrells in Corfu series which is based on his famous naturalist brother’s memoirs about their expat family life in Greece.

I go back and forth on trading Randle.

I think we should try to make the team better in sensible ways.

If we can bring in a player that makes us better by trading Randle (even potentially with another asset), we should do it. But I don’t think it should be some kind of goal to trade him unless as the season progresses it becomes clear that Toppin is going to become the better player and Randle can be moved without hurting the team much short and long term.

Honestly, I’m getting more open to the idea of trading Mitch instead. We all know what his “potential” is, but the truth is he hasn’t improved much on offense in 3 years, is a bit of a flake, and we have a backup that does many of the same things on defense.

Let’s say we traded Mitch and a pick (or picks) for Beal, and moved Nerlens to the starting lineup. The team would still be very young, still have plenty of upside, and be way better overall. We don’t have to (and imo shouldn’t) keep thinking about trying to maximize some fantasy future 5-6 years from now if we can get better now, remain young, and still have many ways to keep getting better in coming years.

At this point I’m sure Thibs knows a lot more than me about Mitch’s flakiness and offensive development. So I trust they know what’s he’s worth. But if he’s not really developing much, imo he’s expendable for the right player.

geo: the volcano is a really nice piece of gear – very very effective 🙂

my only issue with vaping on flower is that it can get really expensive fast…without question – consuming flower is probably the most costly way of using cannabis…

Here is my way to conserve with flower:

I take the post-volcano flower, throw it into a Magical Butter machine (their name, not mine), wait 8 hours and end up with adequate edible butter.

Also, I know someone else in this thread has hotknifed hash/ wax.

Also, also Knickerblogger is a hilarious website to participate in.

Btw Steve Cohen on twitter boasting that he beat down the little guy after changing the rules is not exactly a good look for the Mets owner.

Hubert: Yes, as a Yankees fan, I feel entitled that our team should spend money at a rate commensurate with their revenue advantage. So what?

No biggie, it just makes you a proponent of a system that is rigged heavily in favor of big market franchises with all kinds of built-in advantages. You believe that it’s okay for some teams being permanently advantaged over others, especially in that they can buy their way out of horrific management decisions, e.g. G. Stanton. The comical part is that even with those advantages, they can’t seem to figure out how to build a perennial champion.

You don’t have to believe me, but I’ve never cared much about how much the Mets spend or don’t spend. I do care about when they make stupid management decision, e.g. Robbie Cano. I just can’t imagine myself whining that my team doesn’t outspend others proportional to their team’s income or their owner’s wealth when they are spending up to a luxury tax level specifically agreed upon by owners to foster some level of parity. Sound rather petty to me.

No biggie, it just makes you a proponent of a system that is rigged heavily in favor of big market franchises with all kinds of built-in advantages.

We are asking for the Yankees to not be dead last in revenue:payroll. Is the difference between them not re-signing Tanaka, and re-signing him and incurring a luxury tax penalty of about $4M the difference between a perfectly functioning egalitarian system, and a “rigged” system?

Btw Steve Cohen on twitter boasting that he beat down the little guy after changing the rules is not exactly a good look for the Mets owner.

The Mets are also on the verge of signing loudmouth Trumper asshole Trevor Bauer to a huge contract, thus putting together a truly terrifying starting rotation. The days of the lovable underdog Mets who punch up at everybody else are over.

I’m chill with it.

JK47: The Mets are also on the verge of signing loudmouth Trumper asshole Trevor Bauer to a huge contract, thus putting together a truly terrifying starting rotation. The days of the lovable underdog Mets who punch up at everybody else are over.

I’m chill with it.

There’s a difference being chill with it (as fans we have no control over such things) and whining when they are not outspending every team in the league. Again, it would be different if they were not in the top-10 or something silly like that.

Lol the Yankees are not dead last in anything. Looking at it that way is so freaking bizarre. They have the second-highest payroll in baseball, a tiny bit behind the Dodgers.

I suppose you have the same expectations for things like charitable giving and worker pay for Jeff Bezos as you do for the owner of your local bodega. That’s not a perspective I share.

To be clear, you have no problem with the Steinbrenners using their market/branding advantage. You just think they should use it to pocket some extra millions, whereas I think they should use it to put the best possible product on the field.

thenoblefacehumper: I suppose you have the same expectations for things like charitable giving and worker pay for Jeff Bezos as
you do for the owner of your local bodega. That’s not a perspective I share.

To be clear, you have no problem with the Steinbrenners using their market/branding advantage. You just think they should use it to pocket some extra millions, whereas I think they should use it to put the best possible product on the field.

I don’t get off on bitching about how rich people don’t spend enough on the millionaires they employ for my entertainment, especially when they are outspending other teams by more than threefold. Whether rich owners choose to pocket the money or donate it to a charitable foundation or buy new cars for their ushers is their business. I’m fine with debating the merits of particular moves, but not out of a sense of elitist entitlement as a fan. Maybe it’s just semantics, but I think it’s different to say that they should have kept Tanaka because it was a good strategic move than to say that they should have kept Tanaka because they make a lot of money and as a fan I’m entitled to more than what fans of other teams are entitled to.

I don’t get off on bitching about how rich people don’t spend enough on the millionaires they employ for my entertainment, especially when they are outspending other teams by more than threefold. Whether rich owners choose to pocket the money or donate it to a charitable foundation or buy new cars for their ushers is their business.

I cannot relate at all to thinking there should be some kind of arbitrary limit to the advantage owners of large market teams have, BUT the limit should only apply to their ability to sign players and nothing else. So they should be free to use the advantage to buy a fourth yacht, but not to try to make their baseball team as good as possible.

Maybe it’s just semantics, but I think it’s different to say that they should have kept Tanaka because it was a good strategic move than to say that they should have kept Tanaka because they make a lot of money and as a fan I’m entitled to more than what fans of other teams are entitled to.

In my very first comment on the matter I said “Tanaka would fit perfectly in our current rotation of ‘Gerrit Cole and 4 dice rolls'”

Life long Yankees fan. Not proud of it. Can’t defend it. Understand why they’re easy to hate and agree they’re sometimes bad for baseball. Can’t help it. It’s a medical condition.

and hearing them bitch at ownership that the other 29 teams drool over

lol there are 0 teams drooling over the possibility of having whichever Steinbrenner kid didn’t die in 2020 as their owner.

This whole “who cares about percentage of revenue, it’s total dollars that matter” is a weird argument to make on this blog. You’re essentially the guy in 2006 who doesn’t understand why anyone would complain that Kobe Bryant scored 28 pts on 35 shot attempts. We should just be happy bc he was the highest scorer of the game.

i’ve told the story a million times, but – the short version is, got a tv for my b-day in ’75…just got used to watching more shows on channel 11 wpix than channel 9 wor-tv…came for abbott & costello and stayed for the scooter and bill white…

As most here know Im a huge Yankees fan and while I do at times feel frustrated with Hal reading Hubert and TNFH complain about the payroll I do kinda cringe and understand why fans of other teams would roll their eyes.

I will say the one area where the Yankees really do flex their financial muscle is in player development and analytics. They have a huge analytics department and they still employ the most scouts. Plus they spend a ton on their minor league facilities and little things like employing full time teachers to teach their young latin players english. It may seem like obvious things to do but its something most if not all of the other teams dont spend their money on. Not to mention they as they always have they spend all the international player pool bonus money they have allotted to them.

They may spend a lower % of their revenue on the payroll, which as I mentioned can be frustrating at times especially for those of us who lived through the Boss years, but they do make up for that by spending it in other areas that are not taxed and where they are allowed to spend as much as they want. Just read quotes from players who join the Yankees from other teams and many of them are in awe by how much the Yankees spend to give them the biggest advantages with things like expansive analytical reports and accommodations in their clubhouse and on the road. Players love playing for the Yankees because they are a high class organization who treats their players that way.

Famous Quotes in the near future:
“Competition is the heart and soul of all sports”
Knew Your Nicks

Full disclosure, I actually rooted hard for the Jim Leyritz team. They had some ex-Mets and were a scrappy, non-megastar (at that time) team playing the hated Braves. That was a very rootable team.

#I would love to see this blog’s reaction if the Knicks were a contender and Dolan forced the team to create a gaping hole in the starting lineup to avoid paying the luxury tax#

We would still love him.
He’s giving us the privilege to root for an underdog for 2 decades!

Hubert:
I would love to see this blog’s reaction if the Knicks were a contender and Dolan forced the team to create a gaping hole in the starting lineup to avoid paying the luxury tax.

This is a perfectly legitimate gripe and Z-Man is just being a typical, petty Mets fan.

Already happened, genius. Obviously you don’t remember when I was one of the few who wasn’t pissed at Dolan for not matching the Jeremy Lin poison pill contract. I would have been thrilled if he did, but it’s his money and I didn’t think I had any right as a fan to criticize him for not going into the luxury tax. So stick that up your whining, sniveling ass.

Z-man: Already happened, genius. Obviously you don’t remember when I was one of the few who wasn’t pissed at Dolan for not matching the Jeremy Lin poison pill contract. I would have been thrilled if he did, but it’s his money and I didn’t think I had any right as a fan to criticize him for not going into the luxury tax.

yeah, I don’t see those two things being the same at all.

But if never criticizing ownership not spending is your thing, cool. It ain’t mine.

Hubert: yeah, I don’t see those two things being the same at all.

Of course you don’t. That would involve humility.

Hubert: But if never criticizing ownership not spending is your thing, cool. It ain’t mine.

The point is that they are spending…2nd highest payroll in MLB. They just aren’t guaranteeing you a championship on paper and you can’t deal with it.

There was a book written about this a couple of years ago, believe it was called Inside the Empire. Also books like the Baby Bombers talks about how they’ve changed their player development and most of it is about spending more on analytics and player development. Plus I mean if you actually follow the team and read articles on them every year there are a ton of stuff written about it. Heck just go watch and read interviews done with guys like Britton and Stanton after they got traded to the Yankees. Granted they came from shitty franchises but they both talk about how much more analytical info they get on a daily basis from the Yankees than they’ve ever gotten before. You think DJ LeMahieu hasn’t benefited from playing with the Yankees? It’s not just Yankee Stadium, he came from playing his home games in Coors Field. Same with Gio Urshela and to a lesser extent Voit although he always had a track record of hitting in the minors so he just needed a chance but the Yankees traded for him specifically because of his analytical hitting profile.

Speaking of 20 points on 30 shots, how much longer are the Blazers going to string the corpse of Melo along? He was 3-15 tonight in a close loss.

Respectfully, BBA, I think that stuff is kinda standard for the top clubs these days. You’ll find the same anecdotes in Boston, LA, Chicago, etc.

That stuff actually isn’t that standard. Sure the big clubs invest in it but that’s why they’re the top clubs. Many franchises hardly spend anything on analytics and especially minor league infrastructure. I remember one article I read stating that the clubs who spent the most on their analytics department employed over 20 staff members while the cheapest teams only had a few people in their analytics department.

That’s an area where spending more money can make just as big an impact as player payroll. BTW you mentioned Boston and the Cubs, how are they looking right now? The Cubs just traded their best SP as basically a salary dump and the Red Sox traded their best player who is also a top 5 player in all MLB because they didn’t want to pay him. Think the Red Sox and Cubs fans are happy with their ownership right now?

Z-man: Not generalizing per se, just reacting to certain posts that are pretty typical. I appreciate what BBA and Unreason posted.
As to the “jealousy”thing, I was raised in the Bronx yet chose the Mets when they were the laughingstock of MLB. Chose the Jets for the same reason. The Knicks and Rangers were easy, they were the only game in town. Even as a kid I’ve always had an affinity for the underdog. If the Mets or Knicks became a dynasty, I’d likely feel the way that BBA and Unreason do. You can be a lifelong fan of a dynastic team without being, well, not like BBA or Unreason.

i was born in the bronx but we moved to yonkers…but my best friend growing up was also from the bronx and I spent alot of time at his house …and he bacame a mets fan…..i forget why but I could never understand it…have to ask him next time I speak to him…sadly his dad died last week from covid and they had a service on facebook and when he got up to say a few words…talked about how his dad loved his yankees…

thenoblefacehumper: I cannot relate at all to thinking there should be some kind of arbitrary limit to the advantage owners of large market teams have, BUT the limit should only apply to their ability to sign players and nothing else.

Considering that all of the other major sports owners actually agree that there should be some kind of limit, and have jointly agreed to institute a salary cap and revenue-sharing to prevent exactly the kind of behavior you are suggesting so that a semblance competitive balance is maintained, it’s weird that you think that way. Or do you feel that way only because your beloved team is among those who benefit from your way of thinking and that 20 consecutive years of winning seasons steeped in that advantage isn’t enough? If that’s not over-the-top entitled elitist whining, I don’t know what is.

If the Yankees have a winning record in the next two seasons, that’d be thirty straight winning seasons! Heck, even if it ends at 28 seasons, it is amazing!

They still think that after they won the World Series? That’s some dedicated negging. I guess they are LA, though, so it makes sense that they’d be good at negging.

pepper:
another lifelong yankee fan…I take exception to the sweeping generlization of all of us being whining entitled brats…i never felt that way….nor did I perceive other yankee fans like that..i sat throught a lot of painful seasons pre and post steinbrenner and didn’t feel like we were supposed to win..fuck…we were pretty crappy for alot of those years…this whole excellence bullshit came after george…

.perhaps since that span in the late 90’s with Torre…the new jack yankee fans are like that…but the whole rant of us being whiners and expecting nothing less than a championship seems to be due to a jealous babbling of the fan of a team who hasn’t won shit in 35 years….

This. This is the smoke I’m here for. lol

To be fair – not all Met fans are Yankee-haters (i.e. JK47)

And yeah I’m a Yankee fan. I just want to beat the damn Astros and face the Dodgers in the WS.

JK47:
I have Dodger fan friends who are convinced that the Dodgers are run by stat nerd idiots who only know how to build the team for regular season success but don’t know how to build a champion. One of them (a very smart guy BTW) made the argument that they didn’t bother to invest in their bullpen. I pointed out that the Dodgers led the NL in bullpen FIP that year. Didn’t matter, he said.

Then I made the argument that they should have certainly won the series the year the Astros cheated, and he blamed advanced stats on that too, because when the advanced stats don’t give you enough of an edge you have to go to the next thing, which is cheating. Which didn’t make a lot of sense but what are you gonna do.

I look forward to being this spoiled someday soon.

Please tell your buddies that you have a New York transplant friend says STFU and enjoy the damn World Series title it took them 31 years to finally nab. 😉

JK47: Well, to these guys the Dodgers would have won like 8 World Series if they had like, I dunno, bunted or something

Or if Kershaw (and a lesser extent, Jansen) would’ve stop choking in the postseason before last year?? Juss sayin’…

back on topic 🙂

whew, quite the rabbit hole I’ve climb down on this pipe acquisition thing…

it’s like walking down the cereal aisle and only knowing you want a box of cereal…

does it need to be cherry wood, will rose or pear wood suffice…

do i actually need/want an exact gandalf replica…how many inches should it be: 10, 11, 13…curved or straight…

obviously a lighter doesn’t fit, so, what brand matches might help compliment the whole pipe smoking ambiance…

considering the substance, is a detachable bowl a neccesity…

I’ll need a stand…

this could take a while…

justine sounds very interesting – thanks…

Of course the Pistons beat the Lakers. Naturally.

I have absolutely no complaints whatsoever about Cashman and hope he’s the GM of the Yankees for as long as he wants. He is awesome.

I am not convinced, however, that it’s unreasonable for me to be miffed that the Steinbrenner trust fund babies are pocketing a couple of million by ducking the first luxury tax threshold rather than getting another starting pitcher.

The opening day rotation is probably something like Cole-Kluber-Taillon-Monty-German/Garcia/Schmidt. Kluber has pitched 36 innings in the last two seasons, Taillon has him beat at 37, and Montgomery is the workhorse of the bunch with 48 innings during that time.

Masahiro Tanaka had 5 straight seasons of 150+ IP prior to the shortened season, and never had an FIP worse than 4.34. Maybe I’m crazy and whiny and entitled for thinking Hal Steinbrenner should’ve incurred a ~$4M luxury tax payment to bring that dude back, but I still think it’s true. Sorry!

Brian Cashman has one fatal flaw: he can’t assemble a quality pitching staff without throwing a huge contract at someone like CC or Cole. His non obvious pitching bets (Kevin Brown, Javy Vazquez, Sonny Grey, Carl Pavano) have sunk the team
on many occasions, and what he’s doing now with the three scratch off tickets will likely sink them this year

But he is legitimately a guy that 29 other teams would die to have. Without him, the Yankees are probably the 2000 Knicks: free spending and terrible.

Strat, congratulations on nice stock thinking and gains.

Yankees fans in this thread doing a great job showing how they’re not a bunch of whiny, entitled brats. Nothing like the entitlement that 10 years is too long to go in between championships.

pepper: but the whole rant of us being whiners and expecting nothing less than a championship seems to be due to a jealous babbling of the fan of a team who hasn’t won shit in 35 years….

Mets won the pennant in 2015. When was the last time the Yankees did that?

I think I’d rather be lectured about the tragic decay of white supremacy by bobneptune than watch Yankees and Mets fans bicker about who has the right to suffer

I think I’d rather be lectured about the tragic decay of white supremacy by bobneptune than watch Yankees and Mets fans bicker about who has the right to suffer

Ha! But since you and Neptune literally made all of us sit through that lecture all spring, no one feels too bad for you right now 😉

At the very least, we can promise that — unlike your cage match with Bob — this will be over soon!

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
I think I’d rather be lectured about the tragic decay of white supremacy by bobneptune than watch Yankees and Mets fans bicker about who has the right to suffer

One of the things I appreciate about this blog is that there is barely anyone who falls into either the fanbois or hater category. I appreciate the measured posts about the Mets and Yankees, including the ones where folks admit to and reckon with their biases and can step back and be objective and self-aware.

I agree that Hal should be spending more than he does, considering how much money the Yankees make relative to other teams.

Here is the most convincing defense I’ve heard of Cashman’s pitching strategy this winter: even with Tanaka gone, the Yankees have a bunch of guys whose floor right now feels like a decent 4th or 5th starter, including Montgomery, Deivi, Schmidt, and German. The problem isn’t filling out the rotation, especially since the Yankees have a great chance of making the playoffs even without a traditional inning-absorbing rotation horse other than Cole. The problem for the team the last several years is that their top-end pitching simply has not been as good as the rotations of the teams who have knocked them out. So rather than bring back Tanaka (who is still solid, but hasn’t been the same pitcher since he lost the ability to throw his splitter) or sign some other solid number 3/4 type, Cashman is instead gambling that at least one of Kluber, Taillon, or Sevy (when he gets back) will be able to resemble the pitcher they were pre-injury. If he’s right, the Yankees go from one ace and a bunch of guys to two aces and a bunch of guys, and that’s a huge difference. And if more than one of the lotto tickets (whether one of the injured guys or one of the kids) pays off? Then good luck, everybody else.

It’s a risky strategy, and I’ll miss Tanaka. But within the limits of Hal’s budget mandate (which would preclude the team from signing Trevor Bauer), it’s a really interesting bet.

A guaranteed 150 IP above replacement level SP isn’t something to be easily replaced even with a few young talented arms.

The Mets tried that when they let Bartolo Colon go and tried to replace him with more IP from one of the best young rotations in baseball.

It wasn’t the same.

I do wonder about how the banned substance controversy will affect pitchers right now. Trevor Bauer, who has all but admitted to doctoring the ball himself with a new formula during his breakout 2020 season, said around 70% of all pitchers are doing the same to improve their spin rates. And that Angels clubhouse manager who was caught texting other pitchers around the league had some pretty big names on his like Verlander, Cole, Kluber, etc. I’d be rather worried about these pitchers this upcoming season.

Alan: I get that. But if you believe the Yankees can make the postseason even without a Tanaka-type horse, then it becomes a question of how much value said horse has in the playoffs. Tanaka has been a great playoff pitcher in the past, but he wasn’t in 2020, and the splitter issue has me worried we would ever see peak Masa again. So if Cashman only has X dollars to spend because Hal is determined to reset the CBT penalties, then Cashman had to choose between the sure thing that probably doesn’t put the team over the top against Tampa, Houston, Chicago, et al, or two guys (plus Sevy) who could flame out, but also have the potential to be lockdown arms in a short series. I’d rather have all those guys, but within that budget, I think it’s a gamble worthy trying.

Agree 100%. The real answer should be that they could have spent another $15m and have all of these guys plus Tanaka, so you have the upside and higher floor. But that would have cost Hal a few million dollars.

Sure, they spent more money to put these together, but there’s a general perception that the Yankees never have good pitching, which is really not the case.

I didn’t say they never have good pitching.

He assembles an elite bullpen year after year, which is incredibly difficult. And the depth in the rotation has always been solid. We’re rarely trotting out a 4th or 5th starter that can’t compete. All of those things contribute to the stats you posted.

He has struggled to add top line pitching, though, when not just paying the sticker price for guys like CC, Tanaka, Cole. It’s a fair gripe.

I always saw the Yankees problem being more about hitting than pitching…they seem to go for the big free swingers with huge strike zones that elite pitching can get out in tough spots. Seems to me that teams with more of the scrappier, grinder types of hitters have more success in the playoffs.

The other issue is that there is only one Mariano. Met fans (and fans of 28 other teams) have had to endure one faux-closer after another. I don’t know if Yankees fans fully appreciate how incredibly lucky they were to have the most reliable all-time great pitcher of all time closing out big games for the better part of two decades.

I actually don’t think a Beal trade would be disastrous (barring some ridiculous trade where we give up everything) since we should be able to structure it in a way that we have cap space going forward. Beal isn’t good enough to elevate a franchise on his own, but I could see him + some of our supporting pieces being a decent lure for other good players. It’s not the plan I would go for, since Beal expires in like two years anyways so if you want him that badly you’re probably better off just building the team organically while conserving cap space, but if we could do it without giving up Mitch or RJ I could see them + Beal working together well. Beal is also a much easier player to build around than, say, Randle, since Beal’s skillset seems like it could slot into pretty much any roster.

Hubert: No, Yankees fans are more like Man United fans…

You beat me to it. Was about to say the same.

thenoblefacehumper:
I like Beal but I think he’s being a little overrated right now and that’s a scary sign for what we’d have to give up for him. I don’t think he’s a top-10, or even 15, player because he is completely one-dimensional.

Macri touched on this in his newsletter today but when you take into account what we’d have to give away, I’m not convinced Beal + whoever would remain on the Knicks is even a top 5 seed in the East. We’d still have flexibility but I think it’s a move that would lower our upside.

I would much rather sign Zach LaVine as a free agent in 2022 (compare his numbers to Beal’s and tell me why one is an inefficient chucker and the other is elite) and save our trade ammo for KAT.

Definitely agree, though I’m still wary of LaVine since his defensive reputation is so bad. (I would love to see evidence to the contrary, though, since reputation is not especially reliable.) I don’t think we should go for Beal, but I also don’t think it would necessarily cripple us if the price is right. If the price is not right, hard pass. Whether or not Rose feels the same remains to be seen.

We are currently projected to pick that German kid, Franz Wagner, out of Mich with Dallas’ pick.

Anyone familiar with his game?

***Anyone else thinking about what this team would be like if we had decided to get CP3? And replaced 28 minutes of Elfrid Payton with 28 minutes of the point God? (my guess – we would be the 4 seed right now)***

I think the Knicks did decide to get CP3, but he didn’t want to play in NY.

Also, if he had said yes to a trade to the Knicks, they would have had to have at least come close to matching what the Suns gave up (4 players and a first rounder), so the experiment wouldn’t just be replacing Payton with Paul.

(In the scenarios of “woulda, coulda, shoulda” of last summer, getting assets to eat John Wall’s contract when it was first broached may have been the best use of cap space available after all. Who knew.)

The problem with edibles is almost always dosing.

I think I’ve told this story before, but:

> be me, summer of 2011, living near UChicago, 24 and way too much BDE for a scrawny 5’10” man to have
> hanging out at the uni library reading books while all the nerds studied for finals
> cutie across the way making eyes at me
> my hormone monster starts whispering in my ear
> walk over, flirt, she’s laughing, stands up
> she’s a svelte but looming 6’2″
> cool ok still let’s do this
> go on date
> good date
> we’re wrapping up and she says she’s never been able to smoke anything because of a medical condition, but wants to try cAnNaBiS
> “you’re in luck, tall girl, as I have just baked a half oz. of medical-grade flower into a single 8×8 tray of brownies”
> very very potent, like eat a gram of brownie and get lit
> she very excited, Jowles also excited
> tell her they’re pretty potent so let’s keep it chill
> hour later I’m feeling it, she’s got nothing going on
> in my haze I tell her she can have more if she wants
> goes into kitchen, eats unknown volume of brownie
> half an hour later confirm that she kisses like a UChicago undergrad (that’s shade)
> “ok let’s wrap it up, I’ll get you home”
> stands up, feels woozy
> “cool well I guess I’m driving you, my car is like right here”
> get to kitchen doorway
> grabs doorframe: “I’m going to pass out right now”
> 6’2″ girl drops to her knees and passes out face-fucking-first into my metal oven door
> she is very not awake
> I am very high and have no idea what is going on
> prop her up and rest her against my leg because I literally do not know what else to do
> she comes to and says, “you’re not going to do anything to me, are you?”
> know my own soul in that moment: “no, I’m not going to do anything to you”
> she hugs a garbage can for an hour, I basically fireman’s carry her to my car
> she stumbles to her doorway, definitely thinking I roofied her
> never…

Maybe the Knicks should’ve traded for John Wall after all??
🙂

I’m a lifer Mets fan, but have never hated the Yankees. Rather, I admire them for stuff like BigBlueAl has noted and just sort of chuckle seeing Yankees fans whine. But then again, I’m not a native New Yorker. I grew up in NW Massachusetts, so the Red Sox became the team that I sort of actively disliked b/c there were so many fans of them around me, and I was viewed as a weirdo for liking the Mets. I knew like one Yankees fan growing up, and he was a nice kid.

The 1986 WS was epic b/c my mom, one brother, and sister are all Red Sox fans. But I and my youngest brother are Mets fans. It was quite a rollercoaster ride. I’ll never forget my mom’s reaction to the 6th game after the Sox blew it…

The Infamous Cdiggy:
You too, Pepper?? I moved to Yonkers in ’83 when my parents split – I was 6 yrs old. Lived there primarily until 15 when I decided to live with my dad and go to HS in the city (ended up at Stuyvesant).

we lived on Rumsey Road for about 3 or 4 yr ..like 1968-1972 and then my folks just decided to pick up and move to Arizona…talk about culture shock…

I’m a no on Beal

djphan:
franz wagner is an interesting guy… he’s an incarnation of detlef shrempf… and that’s not even being racist…. the games are strikingly similar…. wagner is a bit heavy footed and of course whether or not he is as good as shrempf is a question mark… but he passes well and has good court instincts… shoots well enough and is tough enough inside to probably have some sort of career in the nba….

the dribble drive… the quickness and the narrow frame are some question marks to how good he can possibly be… esp when he’s matched up against opposing 3s or 4s.. i like him overall and he would be a solid pick tho….

In my stereotyping reptilian mind I immediately thought of Schrempf upon watching his highlights. Seems to be a real European defensive wiz from the scouting reports – the type of player we’ll never pick in the post-Frank era.

If the price is right I’m a yes on Beal. He’s an absolutely perfect fit for what ails this team. I don’t care if it “only” gets us to top 5. Getting to top 5 is how you get the top 10 guys to actually put us on their list.

I’ll start the bidding:
Obi
2021 Knicks unprotected
2022 swap
2023 top 5 protected
Filler

ps: other than Philly and Nets I wouldn’t be afraid of any other team in the East if you add Beal.

I’ll start the bidding:
Obi
2021 Knicks unprotected
2022 swap
2023 top 5 protected
Filler

I think that’s pretty damn close to enough to get him.

I know my Yankees fandom is a medical condition, if I had to choose rationally I’ve never pick a corporate team like them and their stupid no hair rule.
But “fandom” is irrational in itself and I was an 11 years old italian kid falling in love on TV with Gator and Nettles without knowing nothing else…
I won’t whine but Masa going home is the saddest Yankees’ transaction news I got since Andy Pettitte’s first retirement.

I’m happy we didn’t trade for CP3 and I’m torn about trading for Beal.

I want him for the right price, but I don’t think WAS will trade him for a bag of beans, the NBA market value is totally out of whack and I’m scared by the ransom our FO is eager to pay.

RJ’s and Mitch’s progress is encouraging, so is IQ and I think it’s early to give up on Toppin.
We’re due 4 picks in the first 40 (for some reason I’m irrationally excited about it) and we could keep or sell Randle in the summer. I’d rather have them wait after the draft before trading for something significant.

Quickley is close to 100% likely to have been there at 33, so really all we’d be short is the 2023 2nd rounder we got for punting on that pick.

And if anyone would rather have that pick than CP3, I don’t know what to tell you.

I’d have been fine with CP3 but I’d much rather have Beal. Not sure the dollars would have worked if CP3 were here right now.

I think the debate is going to wind up being whether to trade RJ or Randle and to me it’s a no-brainer. I fear the Knicks would rather include RJ though. (The counterbid by the Wiz to BC’s offer is going to be swap out Obi for RJ or even “we want RJ, too.”

I mean, I guess you could see Randle adjusting his game to accommodate Beal, but I just don’t really see that happening. Selling high on Randle to bring in a Bradley Beal and normalize/rightsize things is almost too good to be true.

I’m not remotely convinced Quickley would have been there at 33. I put no stock in mock drafts once you get below about 20. If I really wanted Quickley there’s no way I would have taken the risk at 25 that he’d be there at 33.

E, all merc’d out:
I’m not remotely convinced Quickley would have been there at 33.I put no stock in mock drafts once you get below about 20.If I really wanted Quickley there’s no way I would have taken the risk at 25 that he’d be there at 33.

I agree.
Some writers are saying that DAL (31th, got Terry) and maybe Boston (26th, got Pritchard) were on Quickley, the Knicks wanted Maxey and when they were burned on him they jumped on Quickley asap.

That particular trade, then, boils down to this:

would you rather have

a) CP3 and the probability (whatever you assign it) that Quickley would be available with our 2nd round pick

b) a 2nd round pick in 2023

I’ll still take A, and I don’t think it’s particularly close. But again, the idea was that Chris Paul wasn’t worth ANYTHING to this team. People wouldn’t even admit he was worth the 2nd round pick we punted on.

And I’m sure some are stubborn enough to hold that line today.

beal probably doesn’t move the needle enough to justify the haul we would have to package… this year’s pick alone could turn out better than beal…..

we are much better off playing free agency and paying whatever cost there is for the best pg that would come here to be a caretaker for the position for as long as it takes for us to find a pg in the draft….

pepper: we lived on Rumsey Road for about 3 or 4 yr ..like 1968-1972 and then my folks just decided to pick up and move to Arizona…talk about culture shock…

Were you close to Tibbets? That was our family park for all sorts of bbq’s and outdoor parties. Had a lot of family in the city (that did not have cars) so many years they’d take the 4 train to Woodlawn and catch the 4 bus or get a cab to/from Woodlawn. Man, that took me back.

CP3 to the Knicks was like Grammy award to Morbid Angel
Why?

The Infamous Cdiggy: Were you close to Tibbets? That was our family park for all sorts of bbq’s and outdoor parties. Had a lot of family in the city (that did not have cars) so many years they’d take the 4 train to Woodlawn and catch the 4 bus or get a cab to/from Woodlawn. Man, that took me back.

Yep…we lived right off the Rumsey Rd exit on the Saw Mill…Tibbets was across the street…I went to PS 23 as a wee lad…

Begley says we are still monitoring the Zach Lavine situation. He likely wouldn’t cost as much as Beal, since he’s not as good as Beal. Time once again to play the What, If Anything, Would You Be Comfortable Trading For This Guy? game!

Oh man, if you threw RJ in there, I think it’d be a lock, but I think that’d be too much for the Knicks to give up. I don’t know if I think that Beal is necessarily only a final piece (I think he’s somewhere between that and a true building block), but he sure isn’t a guy I give up all of that stuff plus RJ instead of Toppin.

Again, hard no. Why buy high on anyone when we don’t have a decent core yet? Bargains will come, we just have to be patient.

‘Hard no on Beal. Let’s stay the course for a bit. He’s more of a final piece than a building block. Let’s see if we can collect some low-cost pieces in the next 3 drafts and build from there.’

I agree with Z-Man’s take, but I’d been idly fantasizing when someone mentioned Curry coming this way (he’s clearly not). But it led to this thought exercise — if we got two light-out shooters for our guard positions, and don’t lose RJ, Randle, or Mitch, are we suddenly contenders (assuming something like cgreene’s offer for Beal and somehow nabbing someone else — yes, I don’t have that someone else in mind, it’s a thought exercise). Are we top 3 in the East? Are we a threat to go all the way? Do we still have too many holes?

I’m just trying to figure out if that’s a possible (if hugely unlikely) option for the rebuild, or not. Ignoring all the ‘ifs’ for the moment.

And yes, I really don’t want to do my work today.

Again, hard no. Why buy high on anyone when we don’t have a decent core yet? Bargains will come, we just have to be patient.

Yep, absolutely agreed. Heck, as noted, I didn’t even to buy low on CP3 if it meant giving up a draft asset.

djphan: and the cp3 deal was not wise before the season because we were still on the lowest rung on the win curve…

next year we should take a step up on the win curve since all of randle.. mitch and rj have taken steps forward this year… that provides a window of opportunity to fit in a contract where you can leverage excess value before the extensions kick in…. and it just so happens we have cp3 and lowry reaching FA this offseason to do that…

in hindsight the trade probably works.. but the decision at the time is very hard to justify…

 

I’m pretty sure CP3 is picking up that $45mm option instead of becoming a free agent this offseason.

Again, given the price that was set, no way should we have traded for CP3. But the consensus here was that we shouldn’t take CP3 for free bc he was washed and our team is garbage. I think it’s fair to say that if OKC had given us Paul for a negligible price, this team would be a lot more than the 25 win shitshow everyone said it would be. It would probably be a pretty decent team.

Brian Cronin: Yep, absolutely agreed. Heck, as noted, I didn’t even to buy low on CP3 if it meant giving up a draft asset.

A potential Beal trade is interesting to ponder. But I agree with the sentiment that this core hasn’t established itself yet to sacrifice draft capital to have a Beal-like player take us to legit contender status. BUT, if the team’s improved play this year keeps up (say they hit 30 wins), then maybe this kind of conversation makes much more sense next season.

No one thought Paul wouldn’t improve us. The consensus was he would be the best guard to grace the court since Clyde.

Most people also thought it wasn’t a great idea for building a long term contender.

I will agree I didn’t anticipate him being the difference between us being a relatively high seed and not making the playoffs at all, which it seems at the moment he could be.

I think 40 games in there will be less regret

I don’t think we are in the right place for Beal, especially if it costs RJ.
I think this will go the same way as Thibs’s time in Minnesota, at least as it pertains to when the big splash comes. Unless a really great opportunity presents itself, I think Thibs and the FO will take this year to see what they have, then make their move in/before year 2. I especially wouldn’t trade this year’s pick – even the shine has come off on some of the players, there are still a ton of guys in the top 8 that could be difference makers.

(by really great opportunity – being the high bidder on Bradley Beal is not what I mean).

As shitty as our team is right now, I like watching them and am drooling over the four picks we have in this year’s draft. giving up even one of them is not something I would do, especially a likely lottery pick.

Right? Remember how happy we were at the start of the season of the future? And then it’s, like, “Hey, how many of these picks can we trade?”

I’ll add, though, that that’s why I wanted to keep the #33 pick. I’d be even more excited about this team if they had someone like, I dunno, Isiah Joe or somebody on the team, as well. Or heck, if they had just kept Oturu!

Brian Cronin: Right? Remember how happy we were at the start of the season of the future? And then it’s, like, “Hey, how many of these picks can we trade?”

I’ll add, though, that that’s why I wanted to keep the #33 pick. I’d be even more excited about this team if they had someone like, I dunno, Isiah Joe or somebody on the team, as well. Or heck, if they had just kept Oturu!

I get that but we have plenty of young guys now and 2023 is right around the corner. Considering Thibs as pretty much a “win now first, development second” coach, chances are that whoever we drafted at that spot wouldn’t be in the rotation unless it was a guard who could shoot or someone to take Knox’s minutes. Mitch, Noel, Randle and Obi were rotation locks. So were RJ, Bullock, Burks, Payton and Rivers. So Quickley being the 10th guy is a nice draft outcome. It’s not the way I would have done things, but I’m so in love with Quickley I’m cool with the punt.

game thread?