NBA Finals Predictions Thread

My wish: MIA in 4
My prediction: LA in 4

To Vote or not to vote..
Despite being a “lazy – not really interested in politics – psychfreak” i must confess that i have voted in all greek elections i had the right to do it (national and municipal ones) w/o being loyal to a certain party. Picking each time whom i thought was the best candidate.

Why?
It just feels better to me to vote than not to vote

Lakers in 7.

This Ringer article about Haslem is also very good: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/9/29/21454923/udonis-haslem-miami-heat-nba-finals

I’ve got Lakers in 6, and that’s honestly just out of respect for Spo and what the Heat have accomplished during these playoffs. My instincts are more geared towards Lakers in 4-5. It’s just super hard to overcome such a massive talent deficit at the top with everyone playing 40 MPG, even if the Heat can credibly claim to have the 3rd through 10th best players in the series.

Holy fuck, what utter incompetence from MLB in starting this Yankee game.

I don’t even remember who the Heat played in the first round, but I had them losing it. I’m not betting against them anymore.

Lakers in 6. Lakers are really clicking now, especially with Rondo back. I think Bam is going to have his handful with both LBJ and AD. Just can’t see this one getting past LeBron.

That being said, real Knicks circa 99 and 04 Pistons vibe about the Heat. I hate to say it but they are very enjoyable team to get behind (as much as that pains me to say that about a Heat team).

Brian Cronin:
Wow, Marc Gasol headed to Spain.

That’s a big blow for Toronto, who I imagine were hoping to bring him back on a one-year deal for big money. That’s likely the same strategy they’ll use for Ibaka.

I dunno, he was slowing down…ujiri will figure out something to do with the cap space.

Yes, six more games to be reminded that we took Frank instead of Bam.

Voted Heat in 7. Head tells me Lakers in 5-6. Gut says Heat in 5.

Heart says: Go Nuggets!

I always root against LeBron, and I always liked Spo, Butler, and Bam. Easy call who to root for, but I had the Lakers in 6. Vogel is going iso/size, Spoelstra going passing/3s. But he who has the best two players shall win.

Imagine if prime LeBron had had a teammate who could go out and get 11 points in the first quarter against one of the best playoff defenses in the league.

Heat in 5.

Yeah, I said it.

did dis dude just did dis??????

Does anyone have any player comps for Tyler Herro? I really can’t figure out who he reminds me of. White baller comp… early career Korver?

Also I hate the puritans in this country who make it so we can’t hear the floor mics. Where are the damn dribbling noises? The swishes? All because Rondo is probably saying nasty shit to Dragic? C’mon!

Heat needs an Udonis speech right now!

I feel like I’ve only seen Herro’s best games so this is probably a very lofty comp but when he was going off for 37 against Boston I felt like I was watching Joe Dumars again.

On the more modern side, maybe CJ McCollum?

Also, Herro is 6’5″ and 195. Ray is also 6’5″; he’s listed at 205, but I think in his early years he was listed at 198.

I’m not saying Herro’s going to grow up to be Ray Allen. But when I watch him I see the same youthful, gangly bounce and shift that baby Ray had.

Hardcore

Raven, are you rubbing a Stathead subscription in my face to stir my deep well of anger because if so it is quite effective

Herro can definitely put the ball on the floor. He’s no Klay but he can get downhill. Like that.

Anyone wanna reconsider those Heat bets?

“Anyone wanna reconsider those Heat bets?”

Can i ?
LA in 1!

Well this was a fun finals… when’s the draft again?

I took LA in six. The Heat should grab a couple of games.

go yanks!

***herro…reminds me of another Kentucky product…king rex chapman…***

Drug addled Chapman, or clean-and-sober Chapman?

The period of Lakers defense from about halfway through Q1 until garbage time last night was an absolute sight to behold. The Heat just could not get any of what they wanted from their offense. Dragic being out only worsens the issue; the Heat will probably have a game where they go bonkers from 3 but after last night it’s hard to see how they’re going to score enough points to make this a long series. AD in particular was just everywhere. Also, Zach Lowe has mentioned it a couple times lately but whatever got into Lebron to get him defending again this year is a fascinating question because he’s showing that he can still be an absolute terror on that end after he rarely gave much effort for Cleveland.

The last few years the league has had an unwavering focus on spacing and shooting and if this turns into the Lakers coronation it looks like we’re headed for it will be interesting to see if there’s any reversion back towards size, length and defense.

That was a typo. I meant Lakers in 5. 🙂

Its just going to be hard for The Heat to match up when LA has the 2 best players and has such a size advantage in the front court. If The Heat had 2 Bams instead of 1, they’d have a chance. But when your small forward is Lebron and he plays like a PG and you got AD who can step out and hit a 3, its just really hard to beat that.

I think The Heat can take a game or two. They are resilient but after going up so fast in the first like that only to get demolished the rest of the way, they gotta think maybe their Cinderella run is over.

I was about to say, it’s hard for me to view LeBron James and Anthony Davis playing really well as an indictment of any particular strategy. There’s not a team in the league that would avoid getting those guys because they aren’t “small” enough or whatever.

It’s also worth noting that AD is taking three 3PA per game during the playoffs with a .378 3PT%. If anything, seems like he met the small ball revolution in the middle.

Yeah, “small ball is dead” is not the takeaway I was trying to suggest. A big part of what makes this Lakers team so dynamite is that they incorporate a lot of small ball principles without actually being small because both LBJ and AD are such amazingly versatile players. Lebron can run the point on offense but offers the size and rim protection that equals many Cs. AD can space the floor when they need that and is also maybe the best C in the league when they go small. So they can do a lot of 4-out spread PnR things and they don’t have any trouble matching up defensively with a small team like Miami from their base personnel.

All I was saying was I think a lot of commentary looked at this Lakers roster in the offseason and throughout the regular season and thought they were short on shooting and that they would have to play Davis at C when the chips were down. If they end up winning the title I do think there will be at least some reassessment in light of the way the Lakers overall size and length has really stifled even good offensive teams.

The big ball vs. small ball debate at the NBA level is kind of silly to me.

I have a LOT of respect for a handful of coaches, GMs, POBO and players around the NBA. They’ve already forgotten more than I’ll ever fully understand about the game. But I DO understand that matchups are big part of basketball at the highest level between two very good teams.

Small ball tends to win when the bigger team can’t punish the small team with inside scoring and extra rebounding because their big men are not scorers that dominant inside. It’s one thing for a big to rebound and block shots. It’s another to be able to dominate smaller players at the basket. .

That’s why I said LA was a horrible matchup for Miami. Miami has a very good team, but they don’t have the players to at least keep Lebron and Davis under control inside all while Howard is often on the court and an option. Howard is not a total dud on offense either. He can at least roll and score a bit if required. He has to be covered.

The Warriors with Durant, Curry, Thompson, and Green playing small was a kind of once in a 35 year aberration where you had 3 of the greatest shooters of all time on the same team and a 4th player that was a versatile playmaker and great defender. Had they run into another all time great big team, they would have lost too. But all time greats like Kareem, Shaq, Robinson etc.. don’t come along too often. They had so many great players and played such perfect team oriented offensive and defensive basketball they were the exception not the rule. You cant model your team with the assumption you are going to have 2 of the greatest all around offensive players ever on the same team along with an another all time great shooter and another kind of one of kind player like Green.

Big almost always beats small IF you have the right bigs.

For Miami to have any chance (and I don’t think they do) would require the run like crazy and try to get transition points because once it gets to the half court, LA’s defense smothers them and they’ll typically only get one shot and not many OREBs.

Z-man:
Ray Allen suffered from being born too early. He only put up four 3’s per 36 for his first 4 years…Herro put up 7. I also recall Ray being a better ball handler. But it’s not a crazy comparison. Redick is a bit shorter but somewhat similar.

Imagine what Bird would have done on offense in this era. He didn’t even work as hard on his 3 point shot the way players do now because they didn’t understand the value. There’s a guy that could score inside going to his left or right, in mid range, from everywhere with the 3, that could pull up, shoot off the dribble, catch and shoot, post up a smaller man, and was an all time great passer if you even tried to take things away. He probably would have scored an extra couple of points per 36 with all the extra 3s and raised his TS% substantially.

Big almost always beats small IF you have the right bigs.

Which is why I keep saying that even though I love Robinson, at the playoff level against certain teams, he’ll practically become irrelevant on offense UNLESS he expands his skillset to include posting up small men, stretching out to mid range or further, putting the ball on the floor to create a shot for himself etc..

This game is not about maximizing your TS%, BPM, WS etc… It’s about expanding your skillset so whatever matchup or strategy the other teams comes up with, you have the skills to counter it effectively.

The Honorable Cock Jowles: It’s not hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7F_-80PIWs

Yep. He’s the only legitimate comparison I’ve seen. Now make him a better 3 point shooter, raise his basketball IQ on shot selection, and get his defense up to 2nd team all defense and we’ll know. I believe he can do all that other than maybe become a plus defender, but I won’t put that past him either. He’s incredible. He’s just a little frustrating for me personally to watch at times because of the occasional very bad shot or crazy pass he makes. That’s my personal quirk. But that’s OK at his age. He’ll learn.

Yeah the Lakers aren’t an indictment of small ball.

I think “small ball” doesn’t necessarily mean you play small. I mean, ideally you’d have 5 dudes who are all 7 feet tall but can handle the ball/pass like a PG and shoot 3’s like an SG while still rebounding and blocking shots. Tall is still “better” if those tall players have the skills that typically go with smaller players.

Lebron is a beast who can play PF but pass/handle like a good PG. AD is a big who defend the paint and rebound, run pick and roll/lob but also spread the floor with outside shooting.

but when you are limited, the defense can take things away

Yes. When you are young, you are few in years.

Small ball is a great way to maximize your win total if you don’t have AD or Giannis

Wisconsin has a 7.65% state income tax rate. How much would that erode the advantage of taking the megamax this year rather than waiting for it to expire next year?

How much would it cost Giannis to go to the Heat?

And generally speaking, there are more 6’8″ guys who can shoot and drive than 7′ guys who can post-up efficiently and defend those same 6’8″ guys.

The Brooklyn Nets named Steve Nash their head coach in early September and stars Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant see Nash’s role more as a coaching collaboration, rather than top-down leadership.

“I don’t really see us having a head coach,” Irving said on Durant’s new podcast, “The Etcs.” “KD could be a head coach, I could be a head coach [some days].”

Durant followed up by agreeing with Irving, calling it a “collaborative effort” and naming assistant and former interim head coach Jacque Vaughn as someone that could fill the role any given day.

too funny…

Owen:
Wisconsin has a 7.65% state income tax rate. How much would that erode the advantage of taking the megamax this year rather than waiting for it to expire next year?

How much would it cost Giannis to go to the Heat?

It depends on the salary cap which is unpredictable right now. But based on current projections, I believe the following is correct:

After 2 years, Giannis can sign the 10 year max contract which is equivalent to the super-max. So he’d give up $13 million by signing a 2-year contract with the Heat and then re-signing with the Heat for the 10 year max. Tax differences would save about $1 million of the difference on those first two years.

In total, Giannis would lose out on $12 million by going to the Heat. Giannis would then make up ~$12 million over the remaining 3 years of what the Bucks contract would have been.

So over the next 5 years, Giannis would break even (ignoring time value of money & cost of living issues)

Early Bird: It depends on the salary cap which is unpredictable right now. But based on current projections, I believe the following is correct:

After 2 years, Giannis can sign the 10year max contract which is equivalent to the super-max. So he’d give up $13 million by signing a 2-year contract with the Heat and then re-signing with the Heat for the 10year max. Tax differences would save about $1 million of the difference on those first two years.

In total, Giannis would lose out on $12 million by going to the Heat. Giannis would then make up ~$12 million over the remaining 3 years of what the Bucks contract would have been.

So over the next 5 years, Giannis would break even (ignoring time value of money & cost of living issues)

I’m pretty sure I screwed up this math. My Excel sheet is saying Giannis actually makes more in Miami

Yea…this whole Nash in Brooklyn has become very Knicksy hasn’t it? No wait..nevermind. I don’t think Dolan fuckery at it’s finest rivals the collaborative effort comnent. Sheesh.

But..I’m excited for Doc tho!

has anyone suggested a bad contract three way where horford goes to gsw, wiggins to the cavs and love to philly. i think doc and love are pretty tight.

It would be amusing if Giannis did all this fancy calculating, moved to Miami, and then Florida instituted an income tax to pay for their covid-necessitated socialism…

Z-man: Would the Cavs play “I’m Coming Home” for their former #1 pick?

more like Motley Crue’s ” Home Sweet Home”

Re: Hampton, I believe in the progress and always thought he was ranked too low, but I’m just not sure he’s a good fit with Barrett nor is he likely to be better than him.

I’m back on the Haliburton wagon after reading more about him. He just seems like a really smart player who was able to make a lot of adjustments to his game already. Same goes for Hayes, who is my 2nd choice.

Geo, in a year in which Dolans Razor escaped to the real world somehow weaponized, you can be sure that Trump testing positive will somehow make everything much much worse.

ess-dog:
Re: Hampton, I believe in the progress and always thought he was ranked too low, but I’m just not sure he’s a good fit with Barrett nor is he likely to be better than him.

I’m back on the Haliburton wagon after reading more about him. He just seems like a really smart player who was able to make a lot of adjustments to his game already. Same goes for Hayes, who is my 2nd choice.

There’s no reason to be drafting for fit around RJ Barrett, there’s no guarantee at all that Barrett ever develops into the kind of player you build around. Passing up a better player because he might not fit with RJ is terrible. That being said, I don’t believe in Hampton and would draft Haliburton 1st overall if I could.

Doc in Philly for 5yrs
Smart move
I expected something stupid by them tbh

vincoug:
Can I ask the Jets fans on here something?What is it going to take to fire Gase?He’s a terrible coach but last night he ran out his injured, rookie tackle to see him get further injured and then calling those timeouts at the end of the game so the defense could light up the Denver QB is the dirtiest fucking thing I’ve ever seen an NFL coach do.How does he still have a job this morning?

there is no plan B…so while he deserves to be fired…I don’t think they even have a contingency plan and/or the shit they feed to the press is that it will further hurt Darnold’s development…just a pathetic franchise…not sure what that says about me giving I have been rooting for them for 48 years..

The Glass Half Rebuilt:
When this whole thing is over and we have Trevor Lawrence as the starting QB and Greg Roman as our head coach, it would have all been worth it.

from your lips to god’s ears…

Mitch McConnell actually just said that the virus “snuck up” on the President

There are no words…..

they said it is curious how prez got it

a n t i f a

How about the fact that Trump went on Hannity last night and condemned and disavowed white supremacy and had the coronavirus while he did it.

Are you not entertained?

***Would you see this as a credible narrative arc? Or would you accuse the writers of dramatic overkill?***

We haven’t even gotten to the part yet where his spittle spewing perforce at the debate infected his elderly opponent, who swiftly becomes intubated while he, himself, despite his underlying obesity, is largely asymptomatic.

“Mr. President, do you condemn white supremacy?”

(Mumbles) “Step aside. Show your pride. Take a ride.”

(Two days later) “Yes, I condemn white supremacy.”

If he dies, he dies. 208,000 plus one.

geo, i think it’s mostly to look good, I doubt Tapper, Lemon, and Cooper really give a shit, it’s their overlords telling them to look good and proper. I’ve heard this idea before, that Trump is a symptom of an American disease, not the actual disease, so I wonder if after he descended to the abyss if the country would in any way return to ‘normal’ or if the system is so irredeemably fucked that we will be living with more bullshit from Trump lites.

Swift, you’re dead on, here. This is a guy who has downplayed the severity of this thing for months, and his entire team has been making fart noises with their mouths about the dangers of shirking basic safety measures in the service of saying, “See? This isn’t a big deal.”

The conspiracies around this one are utterly absurd. Why in the hell would he throw away 10 days of vital campaign time — one month before the election — just to get out of another debate with “Sleepy Joe?” Why wouldn’t he just say that the debates are rigged against him by the Deep State Fake News Media? How could he possibly find enough people willing to commit to the conspiracy to fake Hicks’, Melania’s and his own positive tests, and then not treat him like a walking germ bomb for ten days?

Why would he risk his leaky-faucet administration revealing the most batshit insane self-own in the history of American politics? Again — ONE MONTH before the election.

The only plausible explanation is that he really is that fucking dumb to do such a thing. And even then, you know that shit would leak before he even got to try it. And then he’d call the news fake, just like Strat would.

I doubt Tapper, Lemon, and Cooper really give a shit

hey wetbandit 🙂
man, they’re in this whole politics stuff a whole lot deeper than myself…i see him clearly as an “enemy of the state”, i have to imagine folks with better access to what’s really going on – understand, he’s a very real threat to “our” democracy, and our constitution (which he treats even worse than tax laws)…
ugh, just writing all that drivel seemed extremely melodramatic, sadly though, i don’t believe it is that inaccurate…

so I wonder if after he descended to the abyss if the country would in any way return to ‘normal’ or if the system is so irredeemably fucked that we will be living with more bullshit from Trump lites

been doing some googling lately in reference to how trump has changed or altered politics and what potential influence it will have going forward…i have some early ideas, but – i know i’m not seeing a lot of the future in politics…

it can be interesting to visit the past…we’re stuck in the present, so – might as well enjoy it as much as possible…the future though has always been an interesting place for me…

it’s becoming increasingly hard though to see what’s next: more variables keep getting thrown in to the equation…again, my hero: hari seldon 🙂

oan and fox hitting the 401k biden “threat’ really hard at the moment, fox is quickly switching gears to become virus sympathetic…i need to turn this shit off and quietly pray towards my preferred life outcomes…

i blame bob for this – lord knows if he hadn’t been here i’d most likely be blissfully unaware of most of this shit…fuck you neptune city bob…

ah, sort of just kidding, if you’re still occasionally lurking, i gotta imagine days like today must be a bit tempting for you – i hope you and the family are well…

yo man donnie, i’ve spent more than my fair share of time immersed in westeros, shhhhh, i kind of really am thinking rains of castamere kind of stuff…but, i don’t really wanna share that too loudly with the world…

ma wants to be a poll watcher…went to the store yesterday and was quickly reminded that there is simply never a time when i go somewhere with mom that she does not get involved in random conversations with strangers…normally they start off with her being feisty about some subtle slight…somehow almost all the time things progress in a positive manner though…the real trouble can occur when ma and sis get together…

i just assume people are crazy and possibly dangerous unless proven otherwise…it’s not like i’m dealing with them as i would if i encountered a wild chimp, leopard, elephant or even a lemur, but yeah, i’m skeptical of folks…i do okay with people/strangers, much better though with kids and animals…

“He has received a single infusion of a promising experimental treatment: an antibody cocktail developed by the biotech company Regeneron, according to a memo from his doctor, Dr. Sean P. Conley. ”

I guess I should have scrolled down some more..

i remember spending some time at walter reed when i was young…i had some skull fracture thing…was recovering for a while from surgery and would just walk the halls…

i was having a little trouble breathing, was walking around and found this young ears, nose, throat doctor…he was really cool, took pity on me and brought me in to sit me down and take a look at me…told me i had a broken nose…said he could fix it, no problem…i asked him if it would hurt, he was like: nah, women have it done all the time, age old hustle against young men…

started packing all these gauze pads up my nose, it hurt – a bunch…i remember trying to push his hand away…he tells me he’s goona go get something and will be back in awhile…

when he shows up again, he stars laughing like crazy…i wondering what’s so funny, realized that i was trying to push the pads further up my nostril and inhaling deeply…it was cocaine gauze…he pulled out what literlaly looked like a pair of pliers and fixed my nose…

i had to take a few trips back to walter reed once i got back to school…just remember it being an old looking place, in a not so great looking area (coming from a kid who grew up on long island and was living along the hudson at the time)…

geo:
god help me, i’m feeding off the fear at fox…i think that may be even worse than vamping off the celtics sorrow…

my wife is doing cartwheels around the house and then stops and looks at me and asks “am I a bad person?” and then continues on doing cartwheels…don’t feel bad geo…my wife doesn’t have a bad bone in her body but she is so happy today..

Basically, a lot of immature or terrible human beings are revealing themselves today.

“He has received a single infusion of a promising experimental treatment: an antibody cocktail developed by the biotech company Regeneron, according to a memo from his doctor, Dr. Sean P. Conley. ”

I was holding out hope that it was bleach. Oh well.

Basically, a lot of immature or terrible human beings are revealing themselves today.

It’s perfectly normal to be happy about horrible things happening to truly terrible people. It’s not nice, but very few are nice all the time. He’s directly responsible for the pandemic going out of control in much of the US. Close to a quarter million excess deaths since March. So thoughts and prayers for the president, thoughts and prayers for excruciating pain, forever and ever, amen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkZ5e94QnWk

This Donald Trump situation is moving very quickly. He’s public enemy #2 and everything (I think Mitch McConnell is a more harmful figure) but I hope he recovers from COVID. If he dies I won’t be crying or anything. As a black man from Brooklyn I’ve heard too many horror stories to actually wish that on a person, though.

He can’t delay the election. He doesn’t control it. The states do.

If I were an evil screenwriter interested in fan service plotting 2020 I’d definitely have him on the respirator on election night watching himself lose in a massive massive landslide. And then Jared comes in and rips the tube out.

The best thing for America is for him to come through this fine and have a peaceful transfer of power, just to put all this nonsense to rest.

Deeefense:
Basically, a lot of immature or terrible human beings are revealing themselves today.

Well you’ve revealed yourself to be a despicable scumbag over months and months, so it must be gratifying to see some others catching up (still way behind you though)

i just saw on tv that a dozen people who helped set up the debate stage, etc., in cleveland have tested positive…and guess whose clan was in the crowd and likely stumbling around the facility without masks on…

Well…he has been repeatedly promoting the high quality ventilators that his crew manufactured…he might get a firsthand test drive on one of those puppies…

Donnie Walsh:
***Z-man
October 2, 2020 at 7:57 pm
The worst possible outcome is that Trump dies. The best possible outcome is that he suffers horrible and permanent complications and lives to see himself voted out of office in a landslide as he is gradually exposed for the racist, misogynist, xenophobic, empathy-less bankrupt fraud that he is. I hope he hacks away in a wheelchair hooked up to an oxygen tank for the next 20 years, unable to ever swing a golf club again without feeling excruciating pain. Let him feel every ounce of the pain that his willful disregard for the seriousness of this virus has caused countless families to feel.***

To the death?

No. To the pain!

I don’t think I’m familiar with that term.

To the pain means that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, “Dear God! What is that thing,” will echo in your perfect ears. That is what to the pain means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever.

(Is that what you have in mind, Z-Man?)

There’s a place called Pub Street in a nearby town that serves a drink called “A Punch in the Mouth.” Tequila based, spicy, served in a martini class with a floating jalapeno slice. Had two of ’em, good primer for political blog venting.

geo:
not to be all callous and what not, but – is there a way to delay senate judge voting via virus i wonder…they can advance stuff remotely, but, i believe they have to be present to vote…

wow, there’s biological warfare going on in one of our branches of government…

can’t wait to get home and catch the rest of the cards and padres…

It is interesting that the Trump nomination of Amy Coney Barrett could have been a superspreader event as no one wore masks. Two senators have tested positive already along with others that attended. This could be where Trump caught the bug.

Well, in a topsy turvy world at least you can still count on AD being better than everyone else

It really goes to show how individual legacy is affected by team support. AD really has been this good for a few years now. Pelicans wasted yet another MVP candidate. Bad for the NBA to have the best talent to go the dumbest teams.

***It really goes to show how individual legacy is affected by team support.***

Yes. Fuck the GOP.

I’ve rooted for the Knicks to fail for years now, and it’s been good. But I’ve never truly experienced schadenfreude until today.

(Oh, and fuck you Deee and your stupid fence too.)

I wish neptune was here so I could ask him:

1. Why does Daniel Jones suck so bad?
2. Why isn’t Trump taking hydroxychloraquine?

The K-Mart neptune clone is too dumb to engage with sadly.

Bung’s logic chain is like the Arctic archipelago. Mostly uninhabited, widely separated by empty, frozen gulfs.

RIP Bob Gibson.

You have to love how, in fucking October, the only thing these imbeciles can hang their hat on, “There were some Democrat politicians who were almost as bad as Trump back in March.” Ignoring, of course, that he’s still as bad seven months later.

Real Americans in the Heartland have been yearning for a President who will tell Bob Woodward how bad a pandemic is while reassuring everyone else that all is fine and dandy. You coastal elites don’t understand this.

that fat turd christie got it too…lmfao

At this point I am just waiting for the Oompa Loompas to emerge and start singing a song about what happens when you don’t wear a mask

It’s pretty peculiar that the China Plague somehow knows to target only members of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Of the 53 GOP Senators, the three that got the virus are all on the Committee.

So coincidental….or not.
7:51 AM · Oct 3, 2020

https://twitter.com/DeAnna4Congress/status/1312404962404696068

Mike

MBunge: Let me guess. You’re one of the super-geniuses who never wonders why other places have trees but only California seems to regularly have massive wildfires.

Mike

  

What is rainfall even?

Mike

I wish (Other) Mike was at least a little more interesting. You could at least get a sense of Bob Neptune and Reub’s personalities. They were still jackass trolls, but (Other) Mike just seems like a cookie cutter Trump cultist.

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
You’re all bad people!!!!!!!!!

It is what it is.

Miami’s offense was pretty impressive last night when you consider they were down two starters, if they get Bam back and he’s healthy maybe they can make the finals a little interesting

The Honorable Cock Jowles:
I’m also bad people!!!!

Thoughts and prayers.

This series is sure looking like a sweep.

who’s the 3rd player with the positive bpm?

Just taking a quick minute away from wedding/bachelor wknd activities to say wassup and hear yall thoughts on 45 catching COVID.

Karma is indeed a bitch. And I’m with Geo: I can’t wish death on anyone regardless of how bad they may deserve it. Now, if he were to, say, somehow be made to suffer the fate of Blackheart at the end of Ghost Rider (sear his soulless-ass vessel with the anguish of all 200K Americans who passed away due to COVID), well…

JK47, I had a good time last night – cigars and Henny had me hugging the porcelain god. No hangover today, just recovering energy. Two days to go…

Rondo been’s close-ish to league average from 3 for a while now, no? He’s clearly not a sharpshooter, but he can hit open threes. He sucked ass from deep in Boston, but that was a while ago.

“It’s a disaster to have the President incapacitated, even Trump. Obviously I hate his guts but its bad for our country in so many ways.”

I’d be curious to know what the oh so many ways might be. Terribly harmful, regressive policies carried out in his absence? People in the administration finding themselves free to trample on the constitution? A sudden lack of direction on the pandemic from the White House? An immediate and rapid increase in graft and corruption within the Beltway? An abrupt move toward racial dog-whistling and maybe even outright public winking support to extremists, leading to violence in the streets?

Oh, I know. I bet it’s that foreign powers will suddenly feel enabled to meddle in our election, and who knows, even go so far as to put bounties on our soldiers?

I shudder to think those things might happen now with the President incapacitated. Maybe you’re right.

JK47, I had a good time last night – cigars and Henny had me hugging the porcelain god. No hangover today, just recovering energy. Two days to go…

Ha! That sounds like the perfect evening. I can’t avoid hangovers like I used to in my younger days… a glass of wine with dinner and my whole next day is ruined.

Sending all my love to you and the fam… good luck on Monday!

As for QAnon, I saw a lady parking in the grocery recently with a big American flag Q on the back of her car. They’re clearly getting better, I couldn’t see the seams on her face at all. Regardless, they have all the ammo they need for a civil war to stop the satanic pedophiles. Saying X might set them off only makes sense if X is oxygen.

that was very well said…it sure as heck is out and about in my neck of the woods…loud and proud they are…

owen, I don’t think you really understand how the whole “hate” thing works…i think that’s a very good thing for you though…who really needs that kind of bile floating around inside of them…

hate definitely does motivate…dispise, disgust, distaste, much more proper sentiments…less likely to lead to regret…

reminds me of probably the best line I ever heard during an argument: you can’t tell me how I feel…

yeah, at the moment, my friend pretty much shut me down with that one…having a romantic partner smarter than yourself can be tricky at times…

I’ve never married, I think I’ve only been to a couple of weddings…I imagine it’s an event you never forget…a mixture of nerves and excitement…

LeBron has compared his partnering with AD to Kobe-Shaq. I don’t agree there, very different players (in fact LeBron said he’s more like Shaq and AD said the opposite.)

I think better comparison are:
LBJ-AD:Jordan-Pippen
LBJ-AD:Bird-McHale
LBJ-AD:Magic-Worthy

or maybe the best one of all:
LBJ-AD:Oscar-Kareem

I remember trying to talk myself into Lee Nailon

Just a quick note about Bob Gibson: if you haven’t read David Halberstam’s October 1964, this would be a good time to do so. It has great stuff about Gibson and the series in general. Especially since this finals appears to be pretty dull going.

so far so good for miami…about another 20 minutes to go though…

Amazing performance.

That was a monster take by Herro vs. Rondo

That’s an all-time Finals performance by Butler. Whatever “it” is, that dude has it. Maybe they can get Bam back and steal another game? Would be great to bring this series back from the dead.

Are we sure Jimmy Butler isn’t the best player in the series?

Butler deserves his due though, that shit was old school….40 points without an attempted 3.

a very bizarre no-show from AD

did miami guard him differently this game?

my apologies…i realize less is more right now when it comes to the outside world; and, i’m afraid the enchanted silence we’ve experienced the last few days will not last much longer – this below though, this is what gives me faith and hope in my fellow human…there are some really good folks out there doing smart stuff:

The Proud Boys hashtag, which members of the far-right group have been using, was trending Sunday after gay men on Twitter hijacked it and flooded the feed with photos of their loved ones and families and with memes.

god bless and love and respect…

In a rare piece of NBA history that I didn’t know, Bill Russell won all of eleven of his NBA titles with players considered not good enough to make the Washington Generals, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar won his six titles with the cast of the Brady Bunch as his teammates (it’s why he didn’t win a title until 1971 and his final title was right before the A Very Brady Christmas reunion) and Michael Jordan won six titles with Tasmanian Devil as his only good teammate.

Brian

What an incredible performance by Butler and by the entire Heat team. I know they most likely won’t win this series, but that was a joy to watch last night. Outgunned and outmanned, they didn’t lay down and give up. Gotta give them huge credit for that.

It really is too bad Bam and Dragic are hurt. Is there any chance either of them comes back?

I remember Lebron taking the Cavs to the Finals in 2007 as one of the most impressive playoff performances I have ever seen. That was a team with such notable players as Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Anderson Varejao, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes and of course the immortal Boobie Gibson.

Interestingly, Lebron had a crap ts% for those playoffs, 51.6%, while Boobie shot 41% from three for a 61% ts%. Ride the hot hand when you can.

I don’t really care where Lebron ends up in the pantheon as long as he is inside it. He’s been amazing to watch and seems like a highly intelligent and pretty decent human being.

Sometimes there is a salient point in MBunge’s posts that gets obscured by his general obtuseness. For example:

“Hopefully all those planning to declare LeBron the GOAT with a Lakers win will remember this loss to a less talented team playing without two of its three best players.

Yes, it’s nitpicking but that’s what you do when trying to distinguish between greatness.”

It really does come down to millimeters, and it’s fair to say LeBron comes up short when it comes to killer instinct. Last night is the kind of game where you expect Jordan would step on his opponent’s throat.

I really want LeBron to be better than Jordan, mostly because (as Owen pointed out) he just seems like a really good human being. But nights like last night do make me think he’s a smidge short of MJ.

Not entirely fair, Hubert. I do think LeBron is not a outright sociopath the way Jordan and his Robin Kobe were. Which one could argue is a point in his favor (see my lean toward Kareem…). But the simple fact is that Jordan did not go 1,072-0 during his career. In fact, teams he led lost 7 playoff series. So clearly he didn’t will his team to victory every time he stepped on the court. Shit happens, even the greats come out a bit flat now and again (and he was 25-10-8 yesterday, which admittedly isn’t 61-15-10, but sometimes things don’t go your way, especially when your key teammate lays a real egg).

Any of those teams missing 2 of their 3 best players, Jowles? That was kinda the key point of the whole thing.

Any of those teams missing 2 of their 3 best players, Jowles? Otherwise they’re kinda pointless counterexamples.

LeBron has the Dallas series on his resume, a loss to a clearly inferior team. Nothing like that ever happened to MJ. It’s a differentiator.

Losing a couple games to great teams like the Sonics and Jazz isn’t really the same thing.

It always bugs me that people say Dallas was a “clearly inferior team.” What evidence do you support of this?

The Mavs were 57-25 that year in the regular season.

The Heat were 58-24. A whopping one game better in the regular season!

The Western Conference was a much tougher conference than the Eastern Conference. The 8th seed was 10 games above 500. In the East, the 8th seed was 8 games below 500.

The Mavs went 4-2 in the first round, 4-0 in the second round and 4-1 in the WCF.

The Heat went 4-1, 4-1, 4-1 in the eastern conference.

So both teams lost 3 games in the playoffs before going to the Finals.

The Mavs had a super deep roster. Sure, they didn’t have a big 3 but they had a super deep roster of really good veteran players like Tyson, Kidd, Marion, Terry, etc.

goalposts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

https://knickerblogger.net/dolan-sucks-security-guards/#comment-692906

To DRed’s point, SRS is a good tool if you’re trying to suss out which teams are actual contenders for a title run. Looking at the 2011 Mavs, you can tell that the SRS took a hit during an extended injury from Dirk — between December 28 and January 14, they went 2-7 without him. When he returned on January 15, he played poorly and in limited minutes in a big loss to the Grizzlies. He bounced back the following game against the Pistons, but they still lost handily. And surprise: Tyson Chandler was injured for both of those losses!

Prior to that stretch, the Mavs were 24-5. Without that stretch, could they have had the 8+ SRS that you’d expect from a contender? Probably not, but it certainly would have made them look less like outliers. And of course, they balled out in the playoffs, smashing the Lakers in 4 and the Thunder in 5 en route to the Heatles’ first appearance.

Yeah, I remember having the argument about how well the Mavs expected W/L represented their talent in the Finals that year.

In baseball, you can model playoff outcomes based on the actual players available and their underlying predictors. I think if you did that with the Mavs they probably look like a better team.

oh yeah baby, this jordan versus lebron stuff is intense…

Was Jordan not expected to win the first two examples on the list Jowles gave? I would think the Bulls were heavily favored to win at that point, especially the Seattle series.

Generally, I like your insights, Hubert, but this seems like a weird hill to die on.

I’m not dying on any hills, Mike. LeBron has been upset (in playoff games and playoff series) *far* more often than Jordan. Whether or not this is significant is up for debate. Whether or not it’s true is not.

And FYI, no, the Bulls were not expected to win game 5 in Seattle. They were underdogs that day. They were favored in game 4, though.

And FYI, no, the Bulls were not expected to win game 5 in Seattle. They were underdogs that day. They were favored in game 4, though.

from the dept of making shit up. seattle was between +4 and +5 for game five. that series is actually part of the bulls famous 185 consecutive game run of being favs, broken in game 3 of 1997 finals.

Smdh

It really does come down to millimeters, and it’s fair to say LeBron comes up short when it comes to killer instinct. Last night is the kind of game where you expect Jordan would step on his opponent’s throat.

Where in this post does it say anything about–

losing a game (or a series) when your team was a heavy favorite to win

And then, ex post facto, you admit that you can’t find the betting information that your original post implicitly relied upon for its argument. Did you actually look up the money lines to make this argument, but silently, without telling anyone that you were referring to a fucking Vegas line? Like… what the actual fuck?

Does this pass as good argumentation in your world? Sad!

You’re merely picking on insignificant subpoints that don’t actually impact the argument.

You’ve become the board’s resident sophist. Really impressive.

You’re right, Jowles, I momentarily left open for interpretation the definition of “stepping on his opponent’s throat.”

Furthermore, I failed to exhaustively research the point spreads of approximately 400 NBA playoff games.

Here’s the thing, though, I’m not going to spend my day litigating this like it’s a grand jury hearing. If you and the Humbug want to sidestep the point and argue over whatever details I may have overlooked, go ahead.

The point was…. LeBron’s some significant L’s on his ledger. Not just the odd game here or there, but whole series where his team was heavily favored: Orlando in 2009, Boston in 2010, Dallas in 2011.

I can’t think of a single series where MJ was favored and he lost. He lost as a rookie to Milwaukee. He lost that 96 series to the Magic, which I don’t really know how to properly consider. Other than that, the only teams who ever beat were the greatest teams of all time.

In a contest as close as razor thin as MJ vs LeBron, that kind of thing is something I’d consider. If you think this unreasonable, Jowles and Milo, by all means, stop jerking each other off and make your point.

i was also a 21 year old sharkminnow in 95 taking nba scalps with my paperboy tip fund and i remember this series pretty well. the series odds moved from 8-1 to like 10-1 before it even started and the books all started closing to bulls bets period. strat used to stand outside bally’s in a tex winter houston rockets jersey railing against dean oliver’s about.com column, melrose place and how only idiots could not see that peter jennings hated freedom more than suharto.

Solid guffaw

Are we arguing over whether Lebron is better than Jordan? I hate to take either side of that debate

https://twitter.com/jackhaveitall/status/1313200529456197633

There’s not really an answer. Lebron very clearly had the more productive career. Jordan Played 36,000 or so regular season minutes before his Wizards coda, when he was good for a very old guard but nothing special compared to the rest of the league. Lebron’s at 48,000. But Jordan has those six rings, and you can argue he was a bit better than Lebron at their peaks. But on the other hand they’re close enough stat wise that you can’t say one was clearly better than the other. So it’s pretty subjective imho.

But on the other hand they’re close enough stat wise that you can’t say one was clearly better than the other. So it’s pretty subjective imho.

This is, by far, the most reasonable and therefore the only not-insufferable take. Replace LeBron with Jordan on the ’09 Cavs and they probably still win 66 and get topped by the Magic or Lakers, a la 80s Jordan. Put LeBron on the ’96 Bulls and he LeCoasts his way to a ring and then a few more, too.

MJG1789:
Can the answer be “I’ll take Tim Duncan.”

Sure! It can also be “I’ll take Lee Nailon.”

Poor Lee Nailon. I hope he doesn’t read this blog.

Kareem scores more pints and was all NBA defense more times than either of them. He just doesn’t get the press that they do.

Knick fan not in NJ:
Kareem scores more pints and was all NBA defense more times than either of them.He just doesn’t get the press that they do.

More points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks; higher FG%, eFG%, TS%, BPM, VORP, and WS/48. Some of these numbers are ridiculous too. Kareem’s career FG%, eFG%, and TS% are higher than Duncan’s single season career high. Same is true for Kareem’s eFG+ and TS+.

Having seen all three of them extensively in their primes, Kareem is definitely under-appreciated as a GOAT candidate.

Why would you say that Duncan was a better defender than Kareem?

Russell, if Wilt counts.

Yeah, I’d put Russell as the other dude in the top five with those other four. And I agree on “I don’t know how the fuck I’d order them.”

Kareem winning all of those titles with Jan Brady whining about Marcia all of the time was really impressive, though.

the doctor?

Magic is amazing (dude’s name was “Magic” and he actually lived up to it), but I’d have him, Duncan, Bird and some other guys outside the top five.

Bill Russell is a polarizing figure, even for an old-school guy like me. He was certainly an all-time great defender and rebounder (maybe #1) and underrated offensively (much in the same way that Jimmy Butler is.) He had plenty of big scoring games when his team needed him to.

But there’s no getting around that he was nowhere near the caliber offensive player of the other four.

So to put him at the same level with the other guys, you have to consider the angle: Who gives your team the best chance to win? And Russell can’t be touched there based on his team’s success.

In my own personal rating system, if you could only take 4, it would be a shame, but he’d be on the outside looking in. I’d certainly agree that Russell is arguably in the group.

What hurts Magic’s and Bird’s GOAT status is their relative lack of longevity. Magic only played like 10 seasons before he retired due to his HIV diagnosis. Bird played 13 seasons but he was basically a shell of his former self in the last 4 due to his back injury. The 10 years you’re getting of healthy, prime play from Bird and Magic are great but you’re getting 15 years from Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, and Duncan with a few extra years of subprime play.

Berman, always plugged into the front office, says:

While Rose, the Knicks rookie president, has Paul on his trade radar, putting together a package for younger Pacers’ guard Victor Oladipo is expected to be a higher priority, according to NBA officials.

Reports have surfaced — and have since been denied — that Oladipo prefers a change of scenery.

What’s paramount in the Knicks’ potential interest is GM Scott Perry drafted Oladipo while with Orlando and still is enamored. Once Perry falls in love, it’s permanent. Just ask former Orlando lottery picks, Mario Hezonja and Elfrid Payton, two recent Knicks free-agent signees.

He then proposes hypothetical trade packages for Oladipo, CP3, Embiid, Paul George, and Karl-Anthony Towns (while acknowledging the last one to be an extreme long shot), like:

One NBA personnel man said Dallas’ two first-round picks (2021, 2023), Julius Randle and Dennis Smith Jr. or Frank Ntilikina could whet the Pacers’ appetite.

Because Perry sucks and can’t let go of players he once drafted?

Alan:
Berman, always plugged into the front office, says:

He then proposes hypothetical trade packages for Oladipo, CP3, Embiid, Paul George, and Karl-Anthony Towns (while acknowledging the last one to be an extreme long shot), like:

There’s no way Embiid, PG, or KAT or being traded. Philly’s not giving up on Embiid/Simmons until they can see what a good coach will do with them. LAC is locked into their Kawhi/PG core since they traded every single available draft pick for them and they’re capped out. Unless LAC is somehow getting a better talent back in a trade, which is literally impossible if they’re trading with us, they’re not breaking up that team. KAT might become available but it won’t be this year.

Trading for Oladipo is realistic but doesn’t make sense for us. Oladipo is good (or at least was, we don’t know what he looks like after the injury) but he’s not a true difference maker and giving up two first round picks so Oladipo can drag us to 35 wins a year before he hits free agency is insane.

Very little Knicksier than trading multiple picks for Oladipo. It’s gonna happen.

For my money, Dream’s always the one that gets left off the pantheon when he actually deserves to be there.

I’d trade Randle for Oladipo because hey, maybe he reverts back to the player he was in the one season he was good, but that’s it. And I have no idea why Indiana would want Randle

I went for basketball shootaround on my own today, early in the morning, after…decades.
After warming up i took only 3s and said to myself: You go home after hitting 10 3s or after shooting 100 3s.
The Result:
10/79!
12,66%!
Man!
I now have blisters at my right pinky and at my left thumb!
It’s not easy to be GOAT!

I would do Randle for Oladipo straight up (maybe).

It saves us $4 million next year and if Oladipo plays well he fits into our lineup. If he plays like crap, we improve our draft position.

I’d really only take the trade if there’s no market for Randle, even then I’d consider rolling the dice on him putting together a better season and trading him at the deadline.

Couldn’t Golden State use Oladipo better than we could, and don’t they have better stuff to offer? Perhaps NY can absorb dead salary and some assets if a mongo 4 or 5 team trade is put together. Outside of that, I don’t see how much good can come out of an Oladipo trade involving the Knicks.

Couldn’t Golden State use Oladipo better than we could

They could use anyone better than the Knicks can, but that doesn’t mean Oladipo would be any good. 2019-20 Andrew Wiggins, step right up:

Minnesota

1455 MP
.535 TS%
7.9 TRB%
18.1 AST%
10.8 TOV%
-0.4 BPM

Golden State

403 MP
.542 TS%
7.4 TRB%
18.2 AST%
10.4 TOV%
-0.2 BPM

Maybe this year he gets a bump from Steph Curry weaving and Klay spacing. Maybe he’s exactly the same player he’s always been. Plus, Oladipo is another non-wing to exploit with point-forward wings on the switch. If the Dubs want to trade for a small scoring guard, it should be for Beal.

https://twitter.com/WALLACHLEGAL/status/1313490948995907584

Oi, Strat! Let’s see you “both sides” this one.

Wonder if it’s a coincidence that Knox has the lowest salary of the three, and has an extra year in the event that he magically turns into a G-League-worthy player.

Been offline all afternoon, catching up on some bad CP3 trade rumors

The Thunder want to get rid of CP3 because he’s too old and too expensive! Our asset is our cap space, not our future picks.

The Glass Half Rebuilt: If I had to draw a line in the sand on Oladipo, it would be Kevin Knox, Julius Randle, and the 27th pick in this draft.

Why are we giving up the 27th pick in the draft? Oladipo had 1 good year and Randle isn’t coming off an injury

rip…edward van halen..

i find it amusing that even in a trade that we have no business doing that we are refusing to offer up knox…..

Alan:
More “fun” news from Berman:

Jesus H Christ in a chicken basket

I looked at Berman’s twitter feed and reaction to the proposed Payo trade is almost all negative.

For sure

Eddie Van Halen is a legendary guitar player but I was never a fan of the music. Still always makes you feel old when a contemporary goes down.

Stephen Miller positive for covid.

Does anyone know if being a nazi is a comorbidity?

can’t get any boards

DRed:
The Lakers strategy of having the two best players on the court almost every game and then hoping one or two of the 8 other guys they throw out there make some buckets too is pretty fascinating.

So, basically the Spurs in 2003 strategy.

Donnie Walsh:
And the strategy of the ‘03 Knicks!

With Frank Williams and Lavor Postell! It’s amazing to me today that I was totally convinced that those two were going to be the future of the franchise.

Am i the only one who feels like these Finals don’t feel like …Finals?

yeah, the bubble has been good but the finals haven’t really worked for me either. i’m not entirely sure why. part of it is just bam/dragic getting hurt early leading most of us to write the series off after game 1. but i don’t think that’s the whole story either. after miami won game 3 and bam returned to play full minutes in a pretty close game 4 of a 2-1 series, it seems like it should have been more fun/interesting.

i think the lack of continuity on both teams hurts a bit. my brain barely associates any of these guys with the teams that they play on, even tho lebron is on year 3 in la. that plus the bubble conditions make it seem like the pro bowl at times. i think there’s an added kicker to watching a team that has more of a continuous core and teams that have some competitive history,

i also think the announcers are doing a bad job. l love mike like everyone else, but it’s asking too much to rein in jvg and jackson. irrespective of what you think of them normally, i don’t think this spot suits them. he and jvg have a brought zero intensity to the finals and even mike is less intense. given the bubble conditions it makes it feel all the more casual and bland.

the players do seem a bit weird. honestly lebron always seems a little weird to me for whatever reason, so it might not be new. but yes, he is doing this weird thing this year where he vacillates between nonchalance and contrived hyper-intensity. it’s got to be surreal being the star of a show that relies on hyper-competitive ambiance suddenly taking your act to the geodesic dome. lebron probably wakes up feeling like gregor samsa some days, but just goes on pretending to be lebron.

one last thing. other series still had the win or go home tension they always have. the finals usually has a celebrate for days or cry on the floor tension. this time it’s gonna feel like ok bye bye gg.

I would agree the finals have been a bit of letdown relative to what came before but I thought last nights game was fantastic. Interesting strategic adjustments, amazing intensity and defensive effort from both teams, close until the last minute. It really felt to me like the whole series was hanging on some of those plays down the stretch. I don’t know how much more you could ask for on the court.

I will say that I think the off the court product has inevitably suffered – part of what makes the finals feel like the finals is the atmosphere and you just can’t replicate that: the celebrities courtside (and LA vs Miami? they would’ve had to spend half the game doing the celebrity row interludes), the buzz in the crowd, the way that infuses the play on the court. I think the NBA has done about as good a job as possible but it just isn’t the same and that missing element is way more noticeable for the finals than for what comes before; these mostly just feel like more bubble playoff games whereas normally the finals feels like a whole different beast compared to the conference finals.

And I agree with ptmilo that the announcing has been rough at times. There’s more focus on it than usual for me because of the missing other elements surrounding the game and while Breen always does his thing I think it’s past time to mix up the JVG and Jackson dynamic. It’s just too much schtick from them at this point, half the time they sound like two guys doing hacky impressions of their give and takes. They’d both be better off with different partners I think.

LeBron took some bizarre shots last night down the stretch, 30 foot 3 pointers with plenty of time on the shot clock. Didn’t end up hurting them, but still pretty poor judgment on his part.

On the other hand, if there was a statistic for and one’s, I’m sure LeBron would be the all time leader (maybe Shaq would be up there?) There are times when defenders will literally wrap their arms around him and he still manages to score.

You guys are underestimating the effect of age on Lebron. He’s 35 years old, will be 36 in December, is playing his 17th season and 14th postseason. He’s played so many postseason games that it’s the equivalent of playing an additional 3 seasons during his career. The dude’s old and not in his prime anymore. He’s not being nonchalant or not giving effort, it’s that he can’t play like that for an entire game anymore. He has to pick his spots for when he can ball out and that’s usually near the end of the game. But even sometimes not then. There were times against Denver that he was clearly just totally gassed and was pulling up for jumpers instead of driving to the basket.

Lebron and AD were All Nba first team this season. Hold your epitaphs.And almost MVP and DPOY for them.
Let’s not forget these.
During the last two games Lebron reminded me of Magic Johnson in All Star Games while AD was so goofy that reminded me of KKnox!!! LoL

It was pretty funny to hear Mark Jackson talk about how Kendrick Nunn “can score in bunches” after a couple threes, and then have him miss like 7 straight shots on his way to a game-ruining 2-11.

Knew Your Nicks:
Lebron and AD were All Nba first team this season. Hold your epitaphs.And almost MVP and DPOY for them.
Let’s not forget these.
During the last two games Lebron reminded me of Magic Johnson in All Star Games while AD was so goofy that reminded me of KKnox!!! LoL

No one’s burying Lebron, just pointing out that he isn’t the same player he was in Miami or even Cleveland; he’s obviously still great but age has clearly started to catch up to him. Same thing happened to Jordan. He was MVP in 97-98 even though he wasn’t the same kind of player that he had been in 90-91.

Anyone think Lebron can maintain a high enough level for 2 more seasons for the Lakers to 3peat?

I think he can definitely do this for next season. It should be a shorter season, which will help him I think. Less regular season games to coast through.

But 2 more years to make it back two more times and 3peat? I don’t know. Seems like a tall order for him.

vincoug:
You guys are underestimating the effect of age on Lebron.He’s 35 years old, will be 36 in December, is playing his 17th season and 14th postseason.He’s played so many postseason games that it’s the equivalent of playing an additional 3 seasons during his career.The dude’s old and not in his prime anymore.He’s not being nonchalant or not giving effort, it’s that he can’t play like that for an entire game anymore.He has to pick his spots for when he can ball out and that’s usually near the end of the game.But even sometimes not then.There were times against Denver that he was clearly just totally gassed and was pulling up for jumpers instead of driving to the basket.

This. I think we should recognize that given the age and the wear and tear the remarkable thing is the parts of games where he still looks like the same old Lebron not the parts where he doesn’t.

I think it’s in part that he is still so good that it can be hard to grasp that he has also demonstrably gotten worse. The simple narrative has to boil down to either “getting old” or “still got it” when the truth is clearly both – THCJ laid out a good summary of the lost step on offense and yet he’s still obviously one of the best offensive players in the league and also really defending hard again consistently for the first time since he left Miami. The fact that he can be clearly quite a bit worse than he was and also still very much in the conversation for the best player in the league is a testament to just how insanely good he was at his peak.

LeBron is still a fantastic defender reading passing lanes and as weakside help at the rim. He is still a nightmare for shorter players trying to shoot over him at the rim and on the perimeter. His big problem is mental lapses and not being quick enough laterally to stick with young players. He has great, great hands and is still bodying guys when they go straight at him (a la Giannis).

Lots of good highlights in here from this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYedgu-va3k

Anyone think Lebron can maintain a high enough level for 2 more seasons for the Lakers to 3peat?

Yes. The question is whether they can get the right mix of vet’s mins to run it back. They’ve got quite a few player options that could get picked up, and only have the vet’s min and MLE to work with to find that elusive glue guy. They’re losing irrelevant players in Dudley, Waiters, and JR, but Morris and Howard aren’t shoo-ins to return. Morris will probably get paid like his brother did this year.

Yes I agree, LeBron’s still the highest IQ offensive/defensive player I can think of so that makes up for a lot of the defensive lapses, but they’re still there. I still take him over anyone for a team right now, today, bar none. For a 3peat he absolutely needs elite shooters and the right vets.

I just prefer it Fair and True.

The problem you’re having is two-fold. First, as discussed, without an audience and with the stultifying duo of Mark Jackson and his stupidity, the intensity is seriously lacking. There’s less emotion for a series that is typically filled with emotion even when it’s a sweep so the whole enterprise feels flat.

Second, you only have a superficial understanding of what’s happening on the floor. Like, Lebron can’t go all out the whole time anymore. So the Lakers are trying to keep it close with a standard/sporadic effort from him and then pull ahead in the last six minutes. You don’t seem to grasp that. Likewise most adjustments and shifts pass right by you. You notice Howard when he has a run of easy buckets and good defense, or when he gets called for a lot of fouls. You don’t notice the announcers stop talking about him, or how the Heat adjusted to shut him down and exploit him. In your mind it’s all effort and talent and drive, which leads you to think that there’s something fishy going on because the Lakers could obviously dominate by just packing the paint and they aren’t doing it.

Which is totally fine! You’re a fan, all you really want is to enjoy the games and these playoffs have been harder to get into. But that’s just cause of the bubble some complications from team rosters. Nothing fishy is going on. Don’t worry about it. It’s the pandemic’s fault, and what we have is better than having nothing at all.

swiftandabundant:
I think a 3peat is going to be VERY difficult for The Lakers. Its one of the hardest things to do in sports.

I only brought it up because I think that might be Lebron’s ultimate goal before retiring.

If he can 3peat with The Lakers then that puts him at 6 rings (same as Jordan) with one 3peat and 12 Finals trips.

They could still pick up a 3rd star if they unload Danny Green and KCP.

They could still pick up a 3rd star if they unload Danny Green and KCP.

They’d both be one year salary dumps which wouldn’t be too tough but I think the only picks the Lakers can trade are second rounders starting in ’23, and a first in ’26.

Yeah. Kind of a shame, before that story broke I kind of liked the team, not that I care a damn about baseball these days either (was a Mets fan… maybe someday I’ll be again…). But they seemed to have fun.

For some of the old men on the board, I did once root for the Astros a bit. For a brief period they were made up like a team you’d make up on paper (back before analytics). Seibert as your poor man’s Tom Seaver. Jr Richards as your nutty flamethrower. Boppin’ Lee May looming at first. The middle covered by the classic all glove, absolutely no hit Tommy Helms and Roger Metzger. Third manned by the great-fielding, power-hitting poor man’s Graig Nettles, Doug Rader. An outfield with Cesar Cedeno, Jimmy Wynn, and James Watson. Outside of being in Texas, which is two strikes right there, what was there not to like. Although that’s from a Moneyball scout’s perspective (the scouts before they were all fired). I suspect if you looked at that team through a modern lens you’d gasp with horror.

Despite being a starter for eight years, Roger Metzger had as many home runs as zero home run seasons (5 each). Bud Harrelson West.

It would be a hell of a lot better than what I am watching

***They were 200 to win the title before the playoffs. So they were the favorites. Bucks and Clippers were next at 300. The Nuggets were 2000 and the Heat were 3000.***

I’m not a gambler, but LeBron seems like as safe a bet as there is because he is the greatest of his era, has an amazing resume of playoff success and experience, and, most importantly, is NEVER injured. The Bucks were an injury to Giannis away from being thoroughly pedestrian; Kawhi is on a perpetual minutes watch; etc…

For as good as Anthony Davis is, LeBron has proven that he can carry a team of Popes, Greens, Rondos, Howards, and Kuzmas to an NBA finals. Davis being healthy is just icing.

It feels good to be connected with any possible nba trade and you stay put.
Patience Leon! Patience!!
And grab the most desperate team by the neck.
Like a crocodile!

For as good as Anthony Davis is, LeBron has proven that he can carry a team of Popes, Greens, Rondos, Howards, and Kuzmas to an NBA finals. Davis being healthy is just icing.

I don’t think he’s proven that at all. Davis has a 8.6 BPM and .285 WS48 these playoffs. LeBron without Davis is probably getting bounced in the Semis and wishing he had signed with Philly back in 2019.

In 2011, probably the only season that LeBron’s had another true superstar teammate, he had a 7.1 playoff BPM to Wade’s 8.4. The key difference is that Miami gave a lot of minutes to Haslem and Bibby, who had absolutely no call to be on the floor for 38 minutes a game, combined.

The Lakers don’t really have a weak link. Two superstars, Rondo playing playoff-level ball, and a bunch of guys holding it together long enough for their first ring.

The thing I hate about this time of year (end of Finals, Draft season, Free Agency) is that you get a lot of BS clickbait trades popping up. Like the one that brings CP3 and Oladipo to the Knicks. Why? Why would the Knicks do that? That makes you a first-round exit at best. That team is still not better than the Bucks, Heat, Celtics, Sixers, Raptors or Nets. And they’re old or coming off of serious injury, so there’s no improvement coming from development.

I don’t think anyone would have been particularly surprised if the Clippers beat the Lakers in the Western Conference finals.

The only trash teams that Lebron got to the finals were the 17-18 Cavs, who had a good offense and maybe the worst defense in the NBA and had one other player with a BPM over .2 in the playoffs and the 06-07 Cavs, where the second best Cavalier in the playoffs was Boobie Gibson, and I don’t think 35 year old Lebron can do that anymore. Hauling that ass Cavs team to the 2018 finals after leading the league in minutes played at the age of 33 is one of the most incredible feats of basketball I’ve ever seen.

His game 1 performance in the finals

I read this too quickly and thought you meant Game 1 of the Toronto series. I was like, uhhhhhhhh?

Yeah, maybe so, but he’s about to win another chip and has been playing out of his mind this year. It’s just crazy that his “decline phase” is still better than 99% of the league. It’s easy to forget the physical differences between a guy in his early 20s like Jamal Murray and a guy on the wrong side of 35. He’s just built different.

The only trash teams that Lebron got to the finals were the 17-18 Cavs, who had a good offense and maybe the worst defense in the NBA and had one other player with a BPM over .2 in the playoffs

Nance Jr. put up a very solid 3.9 BPM in those playoffs. Still a trash team though (and you still have my vote for GM)

The Honorable Cock Jowles: I read this too quickly and thought you meant Game 1 of the Toronto series. I was like, uhhhhhhhh?

Yeah, maybe so, but he’s about to win another chip and has been playing out of his mind this year. It’s just crazy that his “decline phase” is still better than 99% of the league. It’s easy to forget the physical differences between a guy in his early 20s like Jamal Murray and a guy on the wrong side of 35. He’s just built different.

Yeah there are plenty of hall of famers for whom this Lebron season (that I am calling post-peak) would mark by far their career apex. That’s pretty wild. Still I don’t think we will ever see Lebron go 47+ minutes in a finals game again like he did in 2018, leaving aside the 51 points etc. etc. He just isn’t at that same level physically anymore.

I mean, if you take Iverson off the 2001 Sixers, that team probably wouldn’t win many games, but that’s because those players were specifically put around Iverson to maximize his effectiveness. As opposed to those hodge-podge Cavs players who’s only job was to not accidentally dribble out the clock at the end of a game that LeBron is trying to win 1 vs 5.

I thought about the 2001 Sixers, but I think they still at least make the playoffs or just barely miss it. The East was not good that year.

Donnie Walsh: I mean, if you take Iverson off the 2001 Sixers, that team probably wouldn’t win many games,

“Iverson was an inefficient volume scorer who played no D and had a mediocre ast/tov ratio. The Sixers would have won more games without him.”
-Someone not named Z-man

Ahh, the 99 Knicks?

Lebron is good

What is the obsession with trading for CP3 in the NY media?

I’m more in favor of bringing in solid veterans while we draft and develop younger players than anyone here, but what good is 2 years of CP3 given where these kids are now. I wouldn’t give ANYTHING away to bring his inflated salary to NY. They should be paying someone to take it no matter how good he will be for those 2 years. He belongs on a team like the Bucks, Heat, or some other team that’s one player away.

Ugh. All we can hope is that the writer’s cluelessness is an indication that he’s just writing clickbait. After all, he says “Despite not having eye-popping numbers…” about the guy who set an all-time NBA record in FG%, among other eye poppers. But yeah, it’s true, his assists per game are pretty pedestrian…

It makes no sense to trade Mitch for a shot at LaMelo when you can probably get a pretty similar prospect at #8 in Hayes or Haliburton. It doesn’t even make sense for GS.

Trading for Paul doesn’t make sense either because it ties up your cap while making your 2021 pick significantly worse.

I think it does make sense to absorb James Johnson’s contract in return for the #17 pick, and then maybe package that with #27 to move up for another lottery prospect.

hi everyone, hope you all are staying safe and healthy…

i’m a little bored, anyone want to argue about frank with me?

in some earth shattering personal news: picked up the disney infinity rocket, groot and black panther figures…i’m buzzing pretty good over that…haven’t played them yet – but, about every hour i walk in to the room where they’re displayed and look at them…the grouping and presentation of all the figures has become pretty important to me over the last week or so…yeah, that’s my life…

kylo ren is on his way to join all the star wars figures…still not sure whether black suit spiderman is really worth it…for just a third of the cost i could pickup up another regular spiderman and have at it with a black sharpie…

oh yeah, cdiggy – if you’re out and not completely exhausted – so, now that the honeymoon is over, what’s married life like…

geo:
hi everyone, hope you all are staying safe and healthy…

i’m a little bored, anyone want to argue about frank with me?

in some earth shattering personal news: picked up the disney infinity rocket, groot and black panther figures…i’m buzzing pretty good over that…haven’t played them yet – but, about every hour i walk in to the room where they’re displayed and look at them…the grouping and presentation of all the figures has become pretty important to me over the last week or so…yeah, that’s my life…

geo…is that the original adult groot or baby groot?

do you think cole gets it done tonight?

I’m a big Tyrese fan. We talked about the shot a lot earlier (yes, a real concern, but see very successful players such as Shawn Marion; and Lonzo Ball, with his weird shot seems to have learned how to shoot [37.5 from 3 this year] — the difference being that Tyrese clearly already knows how). He’s a good defender, 6’5″, a really good passer, perhaps not super-human fast but seems excellent at slithering through crowds with the ball, and is noted for having a very high BB IQ. The three things the Knicks sorely lack right now (and for oh say the last 20 years) is 3-pt shooting, passing, and smarts. And he’s got all three. I look at LaMelo, and the only one I think he may have is passing. Tyrese may not fit the prototypical point guard mold, but I think he can play there, and frankly the way the NBA is going the more facilitators you have on the floor the better. I did a comparison with the other leading point guards in the draft and he sure looked the best of the bunch to me, in terms of being good at everything and no glaring holes. If they picked him I’d be ecstatic.

hmmmm, seems mobile posting is fine and pc not so much…

well pepper, I put together this long and winded homage to disney infinity with pics and vid clips, but, oh well – I’ll just say: if you’re between the ages of 4 and 8, it’s the coolest thing ever
…for every one else, it’s just a lot of fun…

reference the yanks, they had the advantage of starting pitching, bullpen and homerun hitters, and, yet the game is tied at 1 in the 6th…

the satan’s rays front office must be cheating fielding a team like that for 29 million a year…they should all be drug tested daily
…

it’s just not fair…

Big one from KCP. NBA desktop has a great bit on him.

Terrific game. I’d also like to have a big man who doesnt miss any free throws in the NBA Finals.

Who was it that was complaining that the finals suck? Get the fuck out that was great.

Jimmy Butler = Latrell Sprewell rightly understood.

Apparently Alsep beat me too it by quite a bit if I had scrolled up further before posting, oops

I didn’t know the tear was in his other knee. So both of his knees have now had surgery on them?

That does not sound promising.

It’d be hilariously Knicksy, though, if the Knicks then traded the two picks they got for KP for Oladipo, coming off his own major knee injury.

This Heat team is so easy to love. They are badly overmatched, it’s a terrible team matchup, and they’ve had key players hurt for almost the entire series, but they keep fighting. I always loved Butler, but even I underestimated him. Riley has to find a way to get CP3 to Miami to give him his last chance at a serious run.

Giannis seems like a WAY better idea

If Davis has a real injury this could get very spicy

Rays are a pretty great team. Not a Yankees fan but observing them on Twitter in the last 24 hours you would have thought they lost to Florida State or something. Very puzzling reaction.

Now, when the Lakers blow this series, that reaction I will understand.

I was an idiot for writing Butler off. I criticized that signing up and down and [Tommy Wiseau voice] now I am the fool.

My goodness. A great Knickerblogger rarity: The Humbly Apologetic Cock Jowles.

My goodness. A great Knickerblogger rarity: The Humbly Apologetic Cock Jowles.

A real Nostradumbass, per the late contributor, flossy.

Skip Bayless

Think of Skip Bayless as an unscrupulous boardwalk caricature artist who does his hasty sketches for a paycheck and then never thinks about the prior day’s work product again.

That’s an ingenious bet. You’re going to have a good sweat on Sunday.

just woke up from a 5 day Van Halen bender. man, that first album is fucking majestic.

these CP3 articles are worrisome bc they all come from OKC pov. “the thunder want ____, and the knicks can reach what they want by offering ____.” i’m sorry, but it should be completely the other way around. i don’t see the thunder is a position of strength here, and it concerns me that they’re being depicted that way.

Re: CP3, he will come to the Knicks if he wants to. The Thunder generally send players where they want to go, and I don’t see Paul as an exception.

But knowing what a competitor he is, it seems like he would exhaust his winning options (Bucks, Heat) first before even considering the Knicks. The problem is, I don’t think any competitor can absorb that contract… so maybe NYK is his only option other than staying in OKC.

If it comes down to the Knicks, I’m sure Randle, Knox, and #27 gets it done. Giving up that “haul” wouldn’t upset me — it’s more about tying up our cap and winning too many games for the ‘21 draft.

i’m sorry, but it should be completely the other way around. i don’t see the thunder is a position of strength here, and it concerns me that they’re being depicted that way.

In negotiations with teams that are, you know, good, it makes some sense because Chris Paul is still very, very good. His contract is obviously insane, but for teams in that position on the win curve who cares as long as you can somehow make it work financially?

From the Knicks perspective though, I’ve yet to see a single compelling argument for giving up anything of even remote value, e.g. Kevin Knox, for Chris Paul. That has nothing to do with what Chris Paul is “worth” in a vacuum because NBA teams do not operate in a vacuum.

Here are some effects Chris Paul would undeniably have on the Knicks:
1) We’d lose the assets we traded for him
2) Our 2021 and 2022 picks would become worse by virtue of him playing well for us
3) We’d lose some ability to take on salary dumps because we’re paying one 35 year old nearly half the cap
4) We’d lose some ability to target the kind of free agents that might make sense for us for the same reason

Those are only the most obvious, irrefutable outcomes. All of them have to be justified by some vague “cultural” and/or “developmental” benefits that no one seems to be able to coherently define. No one pretends Chris Paul can be on the next contending Knicks team.

So despite Chris Paul being very good, I’m going to be furious if we give up anything at all for him. I wouldn’t even be happy to take him on as a straight salary dump. It’s a zero upside move.

I think with thibs as coach we can survive with a DSJ, frank and RJ backcourt…randle at the four and mitch handling the handling the ball a little more and shooting threes…

if we do nothing but add a day 1 functional NBA rookie we should see at least 35 to 39 wins or so…wouldn’t hurt if our shooting percentage went up a bunch through player acquisition or development…

hell, if thibs can stabilize the locker room and on court stuff and rose can spread his unique good cheer throughout the organization we may actually break even…

say what you want about the guy, but, people seem to really like him, hell he even had perry smiling in the stands – when did you ever see perry sitting next to mills and smiling…never 🙂

Heat seem less focused.

The repartee between JVG and Mark Jackson has been something….

Good first half for the Lakers but as we all know it’s only the last three minutes that count.

LeBron

Can’t believe I’m saying this, but Mark Jackson put it well there when he said Lebron would end up having the best career in professional basketball history.

lebron came into this game averaging 30-11-8. Davis has been fantastic, but he no-showed one game, so I’d give Lebron MVP

It’s shocking that the Celtics don’t have more than 17 titles. So the Lakers could theoretically pass them for the most titles next year? That’s crazy.

i’ve long wondered if the lakers were to win a title in a buckminster fuller geodome due to a massive pandemic under a narcissistic halfwit president in a year that kobe bryant died tragically and jr smith found himself in situ as the 15th man would he keep his shirt on

all in all the bubble was pretty great

haha great minds…

LeBron is amazing. Full stop.

Jordan would have won this series in two games.

these CP3 articles are worrisome bc they all come from OKC pov. “the thunder want ____, and the knicks can reach what they want by offering ____.” i’m sorry, but it should be completely the other way around. i don’t see the thunder is a position of strength here, and it concerns me that they’re being depicted that way.

Actually, I’m happy to hear they all come from OKC. The Knicks aren’t the only franchise whose fans overvalue their own players. I think it’s possible these rumors represent wishful thinking in OKC’s part or an attempt to set a high trade value for Paul.

***The East just really sucked this year.***

It turned out the West kinda sucked this year too.

Jordan would have won this series in two games.

With Jarred Kushners as his teammates.

>>> Actually, I’m happy to hear they all come from OKC. <<<

I guess so, but it would be nice to see an article that says "OKC wants ___, but there are no signs the Knicks are willing to meet their price." Assuming these beat writers know anything (perhaps an unfair assumption), the fact that they're filling in the blanks makes me think the Knicks have indicated a willingness to pay the price.

nicos: Worth noting that LBJ has played about 15,000 more NBA minutes than Jordan had when he won his last title. That’s a gigantic disparity.

Jordan played 3 years of college ball and took a baseball break. Also was smaller and played in the brutal ’90s when there was no such thing as healthy rest days or whining about back-to-backs. Jordan played all 82 games 8 times, plus an 81 and an 80. LeBron sat out 3-10 games a year pretty much every year. I don’t think the minutes differential is all that relevant.

Hubert: The year and a half off Jordan took is never given enough weight in the comparison between the two. Had he played straight through to 1998, I think it’s extremely likely his Bulls would have lost a series or two along the way.

You can also question whether or not they could have sustained their compete level during the 72 win season had they been coming off 5 consecutive deep playoff runs instead of two consecutive early exits.

We’ll never know, but part of the reason for the hiatus was that he wanted a new challenge (i.e. he was bored with how easy it was to win NBA titles.) Has he not quit basketball twice, I could just as easily imagine him winning 10 titles as not. Maybe he’d have a finals loss or two, but who knows?

I think you can argue that LeBron is as great as Jordan, but no one will never convince me that he is greater, especially if you limit the discussion to age 23-35. LeBron will tack on a bunch of stuff in his late 30’s, which is remarkable, you can rightfully give him the edge because of that. But in their peak years, Jordan vanquished more and greater teams and players, including the ferocious early-90’s Knicks.

Hubert:
Solid counterpoint by Z-Man, especially the comparison between brutality. 42 minutes in 1993 extracted a much greater physical toll on a body than 42 minutes in 2020.

For sure the game was exponentially more bruising and teams were allowed to pound the hell out of each other back then but I think that focusing exclusively on that is too narrow a measure of physical demands. The game is way more demanding from a cardio perspective now – not only is the pace just much higher (the average game has like 10-15% more possessions than in Jordan’s prime) but the changes to illegal defense have also made the average possession more kinetically demanding both offensively and defensively – more movement, more rotations.

I don’t know exactly how to balance those things but I think one strong piece of evidence is that despite sports science and nutrition advancing by leaps and bounds over the last 20 years as far as I can tell you haven’t seen big upticks in minutes for the best guys, nor have you seen a significant reduction in injuries. If the game was really less physically demanding now that is where I would expect to see the evidence for it.

IF the league was more physically demanding in the 90s…

WHY were leg injuries up so dramatically in the 2000 teens?

Assuming that medicine and technology haven’t regressed in those years, and players are given minute watches, and designate rest days, but injuries are STILL on the rise, it seems counter-intuitive to presume that the league is less physically demanding today.

I’m pretty confident we’ve reached the point with these two guys where every point has a counterpoint and a counter counterpoint, where every delineating factor is completely subjective.

That’s exactly how I feel. 1A and 1B and whenever anyone pushes too hard one way makes me suspicious to be honest. Both guys greatness is so indisputable that it feels weird to argue with – if you say Jordan was the best to ever do it how could I possibly feel compelled to argue against you? And the same goes for Lebron now in my estimation. You don’t have to agree but it feels like a weird thing to feel strongly enough about to argue against. It’s eminently reasonable.

>>> So the contexts for the two feel like a wash to me. Zach Lowe’s piece today on the whole GOAT question is very good. <<<

In which Zach Lowe echoes my contested point from last week:

The 2011 series is the stain. LeBron was bad — passive, uninvolved. He scored eight points in one game. Jordan's career low in the Finals was 22. James' failure will always mar the perception of him relative to Jordan, even on some subconscious level. It changed the way we looked at LeBron. He buckled in a very human way. Jordan seemed inhuman — impervious to fear. The 2011 Finals mortalized James. He cannot erase it, outrun it.

So obviously “count the ringz” is not how people judge this stuff, or Russell would always be the answer.

If we’re being honest the way most people look at the issue (and really most issues) is not by doing a consideration of the evidence and arriving at an answer; they arrive at the answer and then work backwards to figure out which evidence supports them. There’s no world in which any person doing a “count the ringz” argument on twitter is changing their opinion if Lebron does win two more and equal Jordan in that count. They would move onto a new piece of evidence – the 2011 finals probably – as the key reason why Jordan>Lebron.

one interesting comparison of degree of aging difficulty between jordan’s and james’ eras is the number of older players who were still great. In 97-98 when jordan won his last title at age 34-35, the following players were at least 34 and finished top 60 in VORP:

1. Jordan 34
2. malone 34
22. hornacek 34
24. stockton 35
27 mullin 34
32 schrempf 35
33 drexler 35
39 barkley 34
52 ron harper 34
55 olajuwon 35

this year it was
3. lebron
10 cp3

Deeefense: Lebron is playing so well at this age because he has the advantage of very advanced medical treatments, training, conditioning, and nutritional knowledge that players in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, never dreamed of. He’s not the only basketball player that has remained productive longer than used to be the case.

It’s part of the reason, but a far more likely reason is that he’s one of the greatest physical specimens who ever walked the earth. The first time he walked on to an NBA court as a teenager, he was the most physically imposing athlete in the league. It’s not all that surprising that he’s still great at age 35. As I pointed out earlier, Jordan was still playing at a HOF level at age 35 without LBJ’s advantages in biotechnology.

Finals MVP is a good way to compare Greatness after 1969 imo

Also Z-man…yeah you can knock Lebron for 2010 and the second time against The Spurs. But every time he faced Golden State he was an underdog. Same with the Spurs in 07. That first time against GS, they were even on paper but Kyrie and Love were hurt.

swiftandabundant: I mean, Jordan was about done when they won their last title and was pretty average when he came back with The Wizards. Lebron is in “decline” now and he’s still a top 3 player.

Jordan was far from “about done” in 1997-98. His advanced stats in both the regular season and playoffs were at “best in the league” level, and almost identical to LeBron’s age 35 advanced stats. He then took a full 3 years off before returning to the Wizards at age 38-39, so it’s hard to imagine when that drop-off would have occurred without the layoff.

I agree it’s an aesthetic question at this point. I don’t see much daylight between the two. The 6-0 Finals record has a purity to it that is unassailable. You have to really appreciate achievements like the 07 Finals appearance to give the nod to Lebron.

Setting the argument about career achievements aside, if I have to pick one guy to battle some interstellar visitors for control of Earth, I am picking peak Lebron. I think he was the better overall player.

If you recalibrate the search based on years in league and not age, are the results similar, or are there more current players in it?

if we recalibrate based in years in the league lebron is on year 17 and jordan in 97-98 was either on year 14 or year 12.5 depending on what you want to do with his field of dreams jaunt. let’s say 14.

there were still a few players on year 14 in the top 60 in vorp in 97-98. drexler, barkley, hakeem and stockton. there are zero 17 year veterans within a country mile of the top 60 in 19-20. same for 16 year veterans. pretty sure cp3 is the only 15 yr veteran in the top 60.

LeBron’s going to have a nice path to title #5 next year, too.

ptmilo:

if you’d read the three body problem you would know that aliens from the future would actually violate the limits of quantum entanglement to corrupt the wins produced formula on earth and cause all nba analysts to mysteriously commit suicide because they could not come to terms with rodman as the goat.

Or Tyson Chandler, but why quibble…

Man, the three body problem. It’s a personal failing of mine I believe but I couldn’t get out of the first 60 pages.

Went for basketball shootaround again this morning.
After the 10/79 i had a few days ago on 3s
I had 10/93 today.
(It’s hit 10 3s and Go home or shoot 100 3s max)
Where are you Keith Smart ?

Jordan doesn’t have a Dallas 2011 on his resume but I’m not sure he has a Golden State 2016 on his resume either. That was the greatest finals performance I’ve ever seen- Kyrie hitting the biggest shot and Green’s suspension notwithstanding.

Now that the Heat have made it, the only seed to never make the NBA Finals is the #7 seed. What an odd little factoid.

Also, how about the fact that if the Astros make the World Series, the NFL will be the only one of the four Majors to never have a sub.-500 team make their finals (only the NHL, though, has had a sub-.500 team win the title).

It will definitely be harder next year. The West will be 4 deep with LA, LA, Denver, and Golden State. But I think that’s the entire list of teams that can win the title next year, and the Lakers are probably the best of the bunch.

But they also have the $9.3mm mid-level and the $3.6mm biannual to use. They’ll likely get an outsized return on that money. (I’d personally like to see Gallo take that mid-level. Imagine LeBron and AD surrounded by Gallo and two shooters in the backcourt.)

It is pretty funny that we’re nearing, like, Year 30 of “The West is so much better than the East.”

I actually don’t think The West is SO MUCH better than The East anymore. I think its gotten a little bit more even.

The top 5 teams in the east were about 600 winning percentage vs. the top 6 in the West. The 7th and 8th seeds in the east had below 500 records and the 8th seed in the west had a below 500 winning percentage.

Its not like it was 4 or 5 years ago. The top 5 in The East and West are pretty comparable I think.

Brian Cronin:
It is pretty funny that we’re nearing, like, Year 30 of “The West is so much better than the East.”

And there’s really no end in sight. Milwaukee is a quirky mix. The Heat are well-positioned but still a player or two short. Toronto needs even more. Boston has bet its next decade on Tatum and Brown. The Nets are counting on a nut job and an aging, injured immortal gelling for a rookie coach. Pacers seem topped out. No other team is even worth discussing except maybe the Hawks. Sheesh!

ptmilo:
one interesting comparison of degree of aging difficulty between jordan’s and james’ eras is the number of older players who were still great.In 97-98 when jordan won his last title at age 34-35, the following players were at least 34 and finished top 60 in VORP:

1.Jordan 34
2. malone 34
22.hornacek 34
24. stockton 35
27mullin 34
32 schrempf 35
33 drexler 35
39 barkley 34
52 ron harper 34
55 olajuwon 35

this year it was
3.lebron
10 cp3

That could be an indication of several things including that VORP is not very accurate. 🙂

The advanced stats argument used to be that basketball peak was mid 20s and you were already beginning to decline in your late 20s. Not as many people say that anymore.

I think you can argue that at 35 James is not as quick as he used to be, but he’s stronger and does other things better now. However, when you include personal and team expenditures, James and other elite athletes in several sports today probably spend more on advanced nutrition, training, and medical treatments than some of the guys in the 80s and 90s made in a year. No doubt James is also a physical freak and great player, but imo you can’t disregard the advantages he has now over the 80s and 90s to stay near the top of his game longer. Even rest days and minutes control is helping players last longer.

>>> I suppose it’s easy to count out the Rockets <<<

It really is.

The advanced stats argument used to be that basketball peak was mid 20s and you were already beginning to decline in your late 20s. Not as many people say that anymore.

Who doesn’t say that anymore?

And while LBJ may have had a training advantage over MJ, so has everybody else currently playing so why does that disparity ptmilo pointed out between Jordan’s era and LBJ’s exist?

I also left out Philly in the East, their prospects are diminished from what they were 3-4 years ago.

But what work could be done, really? Harris is owed $149M (!!!). Horford is owed $54.5M plus a partially guaranteed $26.5M on top of that (???). Josh Richardson (?!?) is owed $22.4M over the next two years, with a virtual guarantee he opts in for the last half of that. In total, they have $637M in total salary guarantees. They have earmarked $138M in guaranteed money in the 2022-23 season! That’s three years away!

The only bright side is their 2nd rounders over the next four years. Lots of them. And they’re going to need them if they stand any chance of finding decent shooters able to be signed for more than the vet’s min on a one-year flyer.

It’s hard to put into words just how bad Colangelo and Brand have been for that franchise. Hinkie might not have taken them to the promised land, but it’s hard to imagine him fucking up quite as badly as they have.

The Sixers management debacle is another consequence of the radical tanking strategy that Hinkie employed. It required the patience of Job to see it through, and that level of bureaucratic or consumer patience is rare. This applies to so many aspects of society, including my own field of education. Some well-intended, logically-conceived, and scientifically supported reforms require years of patience and holding the course through some difficult times to pay off…yet voters (egged on by politicians and special interests) are quick to opportunistically call the reform a failure before the timetable has played out. It is the main argument against reducing nationwide carbon emissions…not that global warming is a “hoax” but that addressing it in the most effective manner would cause too much short-term economic pain.

The irony is that Hinkie was almost there. The tanking was nearing an end organically just when he was fired.

nicos: And while LBJ may have had a training advantage over MJ, so has everybody else currently playing so why does that disparity ptmilo pointed out between Jordan’s era and LBJ’s exist?

  

There could be loads of reasons starting with VORP being a bad metric. 🙂

I really don’t know.

Most likely it’s some combination of random noise, a group of formerly great old players at that specific time hanging around longer for money or a ring, a greater pool of younger talent now to replace guys like that sooner, the 30ish guys today being so rich they can throw in the towel sooner, still be mega rich, find a 2nd career in broadcasting, coaching etc… and reduce wear and tear on their bodies long term.

I can’t remember the exact quote, but I remember Jordan saying he learned a lot about longevity from watching Bird’s career get derailed by his back while he was in his prime. We just know way more now than we used to about how to keep athletes close to their peak longer.

Tennis is the best example. Years ago a lot of top women were washed in their mid 20s and men declined in their late 20s. Now the greatest players keep going well into their 30s and still win Grand Slams.

Deeefense: There could be loads of reasons starting with VORP being a bad metric. 🙂

I really don’t know.

Most likely it’s some combination of random noise, a group of formerly great old players at that specific time hanging around longer for money or a ring, a greater pool of younger talent now to replace guys like that sooner, the 30ish guys today being so rich they can throw in the towel sooner, still be mega rich, find a 2nd career in broadcasting, coaching etc… and reduce wear and tear on their bodies long term.

Or it could be that when you can’t find a shred of evidence to support baseless assumptions, you just flatulate out a few rumbles of conjecture.

Deeefense: As great as Kawhi Leonard is, the 76ers were one crazy shot away from beating the Raptors

The game was tied before the shot. They were a full 5 minutes away at best.

Z-man: Or it could be that when you can’t find a shred of evidence to support baseless assumptions, you just flatulate out a few rumbles of conjecture.

I hope you aren’t arguing that sports medicine, nutrition, training methods, statistics on load management etc.. haven’t made huge strides in recent decades. Teams and individual players are making huge investments in those areas to keep players faster, fitter, healthier, and extend their careers because it works. I think James has a 7 figure PERSONAL budget for that all by himself and takes games off for a reason.

What I can’t do is explain some cheery picked data from a different era that’s using a broken metric.

I can only speculate as to why some players stayed on longer in that period and tell you they were all a shadow of their former peaks where athletes like James and in other sports can be great well into their 30s now if they are determined to keep competing at the highest level.

Deeefense: I hope you aren’t arguing that sports medicine, nutrition, training methods, statistics on load management etc.. haven’t made huge strides in recent decades.

I’m not arguing for anything….I’m arguing against making shit up.

Deeefense: I can only speculate as to why some players stayed on longer in that period and tell you they were all a shadow of their former peaks where athletes like James and in other sports can be great well into their 30s now if they are determined to keep competing at the highest level.

And I can only tell you that Jordan (his day’s LBJ) was not a shadow of his former peak at all at age 35. So it’s not about either MJ or LBJ. It’s about all the other players in the league, and how the actual evidence demonstrates that more stars played better for longer back then than now.

Golf is a good example. Tiger Woods (and before him Gary Player) were fitness fanatics. They stood out. Now nearly everyone on tour is a fitness fanatic.

You have to do all the fitness stuff as an aging player just to keep up. It’s feasible that the demands of defending a modern NBA offense weeds out aging players that can’t defend away from the rim. Igoudala is still effective because he can move well. Dwyane Wade could not.

Most of the guys on PT’s list would have been effective in today’s nba at age 34-35 because they were gym rats and intelligent two-way players in addition to being supremely talented in one way or another. I doubt that today’s training and fitness regimens would have made all that much difference for most of them…maybe Barkley but not for the rest.

Deeefense: Then you are wasting both of our time and doing it with a bad attitude to boot.When asked, I am willing to say I don’t know and speculate, which is exactly what I did.

This is disingenuous on a number of levels. First, your attitude is quite often smug and condescending even when you have no idea what you are talking about. Second, you are speculating to support a presupposed conclusion, not looking at the situation with an open mind at all. Third, you immediately blamed the advanced metric as you always do when it doesn’t support your predetermined and totally unsubstantiated conclusion.

If my attitude seems bad, it is out of annoyance with the total bullshit you continue to spew at every turn.

Deeefense: The 76ers were on the doorstep and blew it.

Agreed.

Deeefense: Ainge is too conservative with deals but he has several very good young players with upside and flexibility to get better. He should develop the young players and try to upgrade where he can with players ready to compete now. He’s one player away.

He did that with Kemba but that’s a lot of cap space to tie up in an untradable contract for a 1-way player. Once Tatum gets maxed, they might have to trade Smart to get the guy they need, and Smart is a big part of their team. They are still in good position, but nowhere near the dynasty C’s fans predicted 5 years ago.

Deeefense: The Nuggets, Mavs and Heat should do exactly the same thing. They should develop their young players and try to add or
and upgrade where they can with guys that are ready to compete for bigger and better things now. The Mavs are a little further behind and may need 2 more key players.

Agreed.

Deeefense: The Knicks suck and should be open to getting better any way they can other than trading for guys like CP3. Things like that make no sense to me because we’d be getting the last two puffs on a cigarette long before we are ready to compete. But I’d have no problem signing a 29 year old version of CP3, getting better, making us more attractive to free agents and in trades and going from there. We don’t need old men and we don’t have to rebuild for another 5 years via draft.

Agreed.

See? When you say reasonable stuff my attitude isn’t all that bad!

Pass. The most compelling reason is that Looney is very injury prone, so he’s not really even a piece.

but basketball isn’t tennis and all is not equal.

ha, too funny, my mind did immediately go to djokovic, nadal and also federer and serena whom are sports dinosaurs…

one thing that has changed over time in the nba is the talent pool which the sport draws upon…maybe there are just a lot better younger guys these days pushing out the “old-timers” – those aged folks creeping up on their mid thirties…