Marc Berman has some interesting draft thoughts:
Should the Knicks go for the best fit or the best player available in this year’s draft? — Yaron Rahmani
The Knicks need to go for the best fit and that’s a point guard for the future because it’s so difficult to snare an elite one in free agency.
It is a weak draft in which some believe there’s not a whole lot of difference among the top-12 rated players. That’s highly unusual. Might as well go for need.
The Post has learned unequivocally LaMelo Ball is currently the top-rated point guard on the Knicks’ board.
That should hardly be surprising, knowing new president Leon Rose likes to shoot for the stars. Knicks officials believe the 6-foot-7 playmaker/driver has one of the higher upsides in the entire draft despite his lack of a 3-point shot. Rose has already dealt with outspoken father Lavar Ball when his sons were briefly with Creative Artists Agency.
Enlarge ImageLaMelo Ball
The Post already has reported league insiders believe father Lavar Ball will attempt to steer him to the big-market Knicks. What does that entail if the Knicks stay at the sixth spot in the draft? They’d probably have to trade up into the top 3 with a club not so hot on either LaMelo or Lavar. Hopefully that team won’t ask for a king’s ransom.
If the Knicks remain at No. 6 after the lottery drawing, Ball is not expected to fall to that slot. Keep an eye on the Pistons and Ball in the lottery. Detroit is one of the few teams dying for a point guard, too.
If the Knicks are in the 6-10 range, Cole Anthony, Tyrese Haliburton, Killian Hayes, Tyrese Maxey — maybe even trading back for R.J. Hampton or Kira Lewis — will all be in play.
I wonder if Cole Anthony will room with RJ Barett on the road next season.
116 replies on “NY Post: Knicks mailbag: Talking NBA Draft plan and if LaMelo Ball fits”
hey farf, you leaving the house and going somewhere?
bc spinning our heads with all the new threads…
hey man, I done read and seen your comic book site and stories – you’re an amazingly active writer – are you taking a break or something 🙂
I imagine you’ve probably always have worked a lot from home…it’s definitely a lot more challenging to be productive than I ever thought…particularly with other people in the home…
never put off for tomorrow what you can postpone until the day after…ugh, I need to log in…
I don’t mind having LaMelo ranked #1. Personally I have Hayes there but reasonable minds can disagree.
I will be very mad if they trade up for him, though. I see no way the difference between Ball and Haliburton/Hayes justifies that.
I hope the Knicks win every game they play when the season restarts so they fall lower in the lottery and stay as far away as possible from LaMelo Ball.
This is so dense from so many perspectives. The knicks are devoid of frontline NBA talent with the exception of Mitch.
The best player available is the only way to go. If they actually believe La Melo is the BPA then fine….. but taking a point guard when there is a better ranked player available is sheer lunacy. The Knicks have 4 gaping holes and need to fill at least one of them one of these days.
I too was kind of curious about whether Farfa was still having car issues….
We keep thinking we have a big hole at point guard. The truth is our biggest problem was lack of shooting, not lack of point guard. Of course, our point guards aren’t good shooters, so getting one who shoots better would help. But I’m not sure that’s LaMelo Ball. Actually, I think of Peyton as Raymond Felton II. Their stats are pretty similar. But the Knicks with Felton weren’t as bad as these Knicks are. We could get better even with Felton if we got better in other areas. So I’m not convinced drafting for need means having LaMelo our top priority. On the other hand, the BPA is could easily be Wiseman, and he’s a center. If he’s available when we pick, I’m going to be thinking maybe we should trade him to Boston for Hayward.
I’m not for trading up for Ball either. And even if I would, I would not have leaked that he’s my #1 target.
So It looks like the Celts will have picks #17, 26 and 30 or something like that. After that, they will have no surplus picks. Kemba and Brown are maxed, and even with Hayward off the books in 2021-22, Tatum will need to get paid. So between those 3 and Smart, they will be around the $100 million mark. The picture doesn’t look anywhere near as rosy as it did when they first signed Hayward.
Now watch Ainge draft two sleeper superstars with this year’s picks.
I looked at Hayward in more detail and I’m reconsidering. He’s older than I thought. We really need a shooter, but I’m not sure I want to give up a draft pick for the opportunity to re-sign him in 2021 when he’s thirty.
Respectfuly, trading a lottery pick for Hayward would make no sense for us. If anything, the Celts should offer sweetener to take him off of their hands. Let them take back DSjr and Randle plus filler and give us one of their #1’s.
Not that they would do that. Some playoff team that needs shooting, like Milwaukee or Philly, might take him on. Maybe the Spurs could use him.
If we drafted Wiseman (and I’m pretty convinced that when all is said and done he will go in the top 5, maybe even #1) I wouldn’t trade him unless someone wanted to trade up for him and gave us a lower lottery pick plus another decent pick or asset.
-i really don’t like lamelo and i hate that he’s being talked as a #1 pick… we basically have seen this guy in the pro’s and the guy literally is in the same family as him….
-finally got around to watching The Last Dance and i gotta say it really did that era justice… the first 5 was much much better than the last 5 but altogether it really put that whole time in perspective… especially when i was jordan hater and tuned out when the knicks got bounced…. even hearing phil curse the team out was really cool to hear….
it also really brought home the idea that the league is just so different now…. i miss all those rivalries…. the pacers… the heat… the bulls… ESPECIALLY the bulls…. to some extent all those rivalries went out west with gs and houston and san antonio but it’s far far different than the 90s version….
and that’s another thing… yes the game today is a lot more superficially aesthetically pleasing…. but i might be in the minority but i do prefer 90s ball…. yes a lot of games were ugly slugfests…. but individual possessions meant something…. instead of the ping pong type of games we get now…. my hope is that the game reaches an equilibrium to mesh between 90s ball and money ball…. maybe a little like what we saw in the 80s….
Haha, no, my new car works just fine! Which is Alanis’ way about irony
It’s a neeeewwww caaaaaar
In the middle of a pandemic
But anyway I’m not going anywhere, sadly 🙁
Better safe than sorry, after all
I don’t disagree (it’s funny that this is a legitimately good comp because it seems like the kind of comp shitty draft analysts would lazily make), but would you not sign up for Lonzo Ball on a rookie-scale contract from this draft?
It’s certainly not ideal, but with the weakness of this draft and Lonzo’s development this season I’d sign up for that in a second.
Z-man, forget I ever mentioned it. It’s not a good idea
The thing about this draft is while it’s great optics to swing for the fences, we don’t necessarily need to. There’s not a great separation in top talent. Ending up with say..Haliburton and Nesmith or Jalen Smith would be just as effective as landing Ball and Smith or Carey. Ball arguably has the highest ceiling, but say we land Haliburton and Smith(we’d have to trade up for Nesmith), and find a trade partner for Randle or move him to the bench. Then we roll with a starting 5 of Mitch/Smith/Bullock/RJ/Haliburton. Or even Mitch/Smith/RJ/Ntilikina/Haliburton while letting Taj, Randle, and Bullock anchor the 2nd unit. Who says no to that? Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have Ball or Hayes, or even Wiseman..even Toppin to slot next to Mitch. But, it’ll be hard to mess this draft up unless you trade picks for a star not named Giannis or Kawhi.
Side Note: Ingram is restricted, but I would definitely go hard for him and give NO that late 1st and Knox to add him. Absolutely
LaMelo Ball is the same caliber point guard prospect as Luka Doncic and Trae Young. He’s that good with a ball in his hand, and I think he would have won the NPOY if he went to UCLA instead of Illawara. At the same time, his decision making scares me so much, and I’m not comfortable starting him at the point from Day 1.
The only way I’d be comfortable with LaMelo Ball is if we traded for Chris Paul (with Julius Randle leaving in the same deal), and if we bring back Marcus Morris on a two year contract to play power forward. You absolutely have to put Melo on a team where he’s around high character guys who won’t tolerate the 40 foot 3’s with 17 seconds left on the shot clock, and I like the idea of having CP3 and Mook there to punch him in the stomach every time he does something dumb.
BPA or bust. Unfortunately we have no real idea who that is, which means the Knicks can’t be doing any better.
Kira Lewis Jr. could wind up as the best PG in this draft.
To follow up on the Hayward posts, I could imagine Hayward ending up back in Utah. I wonder if the Celts might do well to offer a big package for Gobert…Hayward plus picks and Robert Williams or something like that.
That makes sense. Because of his age he’s a much better fit in Utah, where he would help them win now. And Gobert would help Boston a lot.
BPA is more of a philosophy of not making draft decisions based on your current roster than a real thing-lots of times in a draft there isn’t an obvious best player available. As Bob points out the Knicks do need a PG but they also need everything else save a good center.
LaMelo is not Doncic. That is nuts. Doncic was the POY in the second best league in the world at the same age.
i wouldn’t signup for lonzo ball no way…. and i usually have a lot of issues with big pg types unless they can be played at sf… which i don’t think lamelo could do….
the thing is… what is the upside? if you can’t score then your upside is a super role player type…. which is great… but what about the other guys?…. guys like wiseman and edwards and a few other guys have much higher and better ceilings than lamelo…
so what’s the case for lamelo? that he has a higher likelihood to hit his ceiling? with a broken jumpshot? without any hope of creating an off the dribble shot at all? to me… haliburton has similar warts but is much quicker, can defend the position very well and a much better baseline of a shooter…. lamelo is a year younger and that’s really it…
i don’t see it… i see this as a push from an agent or lamelo’s camp to catapult him on name alone …. which wouldn’t be the first or 100th time this has happened…. he hid himself in australia which is the route thon maker and other hyped but fringe prospects chose to hide themselves… real prospects don’t generally do that…. we now have a decent history of these players who chose to forgo college for overseas play and the best has been what… brandon jennings? these guys are doing this to protect their draft stock in low risk environments….
i’ve seen this story before… and while i don’t think there’s zero chance that lamelo turns out to be a good player or even the best player… i certainly think the odds are better with others…. i look at him and i see the upside as ricky rubio… and even in this draft ricky rubio isn’t going anywhere near #1….
LaMelo’s passing and rebounding numbers jump off the page. By the numbers Haliburton isn’t the passer or rebounder that LaMelo is. He has a great handle and his passes have that extra wow factor to them that makes him look capable of making something out of nothing rather than taking advantage of teammates who get themselves open. Few scouts question Ball’s athleticism or ability to blow by defenders, lots of people question Haliburton’s ability to do the same. That’s why Ball is going #1 and projected ahead of Haliburton.
Personally I put Haliburton ahead of Ball, but Ball has superstar potential few players possess. Of course that’s still nowhere near Luka’s actual production, or even Young’s.
Or LaMelo could be Jason Kidd, who also had not outside shot but elite court vision and passing when he came into the league.
I still don’t understand why Tyrese Halliburton isn’t #1. Elite Beyond-3pt shot despite form, Great catch and shoot, great passing, great finishing, great shot chart, great man/team defense- Very high iq defense and offense. The only issues are #athleticism, #flashydribblemoves, #notriskyenoughonoffense. Sounds good to me.
college ball isn’t the same as the australian league…. lamelo put up the #s he did because of extremely high usage and frankly they don’t play much defense in that league… these are rec league pickup games for the most part….
he has great vision…. but if that’s all you can do then that’s not even a good player….
at the very least hailburton has a good chance to hit his ceiling…. lamelo’s ceiling is overrated…. who is his comp? magic johnson? i feel dirty even mentioning him…. grant hill? yea no…. penny? no f’ing way….
if it’s not them then what’s this mythical upside? scouts dont’ question his athleticism but i will…. he’s pretty doughy looking for a top prospect… he’s got a great handle but he’s not all that quick nor explosive…. for his size he’s not athletic at all which is why he has no shot at SF….
he might just be a shaun livingston… who’s a decent player but the #1 pick?
LaMelo would be an easier sell if the Knicks didn’t just draft R.J. Barret, one of the worst shooters in the NBA. I don’t see how playing them together would be possible unless the Knicks are going for the lowest TS% in the league.
Knicks need more efficient scorers above all else.
Ewing was released from the hospital today:
The NBA right now is all about efficient scoring. It’s very difficult to find a great player who can’t efficiently score. Can’t even name one.
“Or LaMelo could be Jason Kidd, who also had not outside shot but elite court vision and passing when he came into the league.”
Yeah…. and I could be Wilt Chamberlain if I was residing on one of Lisa Randall’s multidimensional membranes.
Comparing Kidd’s stats at Cal and La Melo’s in OZ is the proverbial Shakespearean comparison of a Hyperion to a Satyr.
Kidd’s last season at Cal he shot 36.2% on 3’s over 141 attempts…..La Melo 25% while chucking 7.7 heaves/game
2 pt % Kidd 54.5% la Melo 45.8%
APG…. Kidd 9.1 La Melo 6.8
Steals…. Kidd 3.1 La Melo 1.6
TS%…. Kidd .578 La Melo N/A
Boards Kidd 6.9 La Melo 7.6
I really don’t see the hype for LaMelo. He’s literally only a great passer with some rebounding. Poor shooting, defense, finishing… Is passing enough?
LaMelo has a very high ceiling an a somewhat low floor. His ball-handling and passing are huge plusses and shot analysts do not consider his shot to be broken. For me, it’s all about his lack of focus and maturity. I’m not sure if he ever played on a team where winning mattered all that much, I mean, his NBL team was horrible and his Lithuanian team was a terrible fit. His HS team also seemed like a joke.
My big concern is: what’s between the ears? His interview with Schmitz did not sound great. If I had gotten the sense that he was super-smart and knew exactly what he needed to do to refine his game, I’d be more optimistic.
I think he’s a great pick if you can afford to swing and miss. That’s not really us. That said, as PGs go, I’d take him over Hayes and Anthony. Just not over Haliburton.
The way I see it, Haliburton>Hayes>Edwards>LaMelo…
Also – Does a broken shot mean anything if the percentages are good?
yeah, sooooooo, ummmmm, was that like a romantic relationship kind of reference then about not getting your engine going?
is the virus putting the voodoo on getting things revved up and functioning properly at the required moment…
Just watched a few YouTube videos of Wiseman, Ball, Edwards, Anthony and the rest of the players who are probably going to be drafted on the first round.
If i were a GM I’d have a LOT of study to do to pick the right one.
Now if i were playing tavli (backgammon) while drinking ouzo on a greek island with an nba GM and he asked me to rank the 3 first ones I’d lightly say:
1Edwards – 2Wiseman – 3Ball
Also – Does a broken shot mean anything if the percentages are good?
Jamaal Wilkes made the HOF with this butt ugly stroke side-winding/slingshot stroke:
It is really hard to repeat a funky stroke….
Or this one…
Well, a lot of people, including me, saw Lonzo Ball have a .673 ts% in college and thought oh well, his shot is broken but it’s going in a lot, so he shouldn’t be terrible in the pros… and now he has a career .488 ts even after very large improvements, specially this year while having to revamp his shooting form almost entirely from scratch.
So I would say it matters, and at the same time it’s something that can be corrected with good training and a lot of hard work. Lonzo was in a good upwards trend before the season was paralyzed, and he is shooting 38% on 3s for the season on 6.5 attempts per game. My biggest fear with LaMelo is honestly if he’s willing to work this hard and really improve, because everything I’ve seen from him does not give me much confidence. Lonzo is still mostly a fringe player even while improving his shooting every year he’s been on the league, so LaMelo would have to do the same and a lot more to eventually become a star. It’s too risky for me.
Listening to people talk about LaMelo, he reminds me of Ntilikina; not in their specific skills but in the general situation of their appeal. They both played in a foreign league that isn’t one of the best ones and they both have a skill that inspires some people to really like them. For LaMelo it’s passing, for Ntilikina it’s defense. They both have a long way to go on offense. Sure, LaMelo could improve his shooting. So could Frank. It’s not surprising to me that opinions on LaMelo are polarized. It was the same with Frank when he was drafted. If we draft him, be prepared that he could take a while to develop.
The main difference is that LaMelo seems to be the polar opposite of Ntilikina in a very meaningful manner, in terms of personality. I don’t think he’ll have many issues taking the ball and being confident to shoot or dominate an offense. That makes me more interested in him, because in the NBA you need ball handlers who can do this, but it’s only a positive thing if he can actually produce efficiently while doing it, which I’m not really confident about.
It does when the percentage is from a small sample. That was Markelle Fultz’ deal.
LaMelo Ball/Frank Ntilikina might be the worst comp I’ve ever seen. With Ball, the question is whether or not his utter lack of a jump shot is a fair price to pay for his wide variety of other skills. With Ntilikina, the question is whether or not he can ever develop any tangible offensive skills at all.
More generally, I think people need to recalibrate their expectations from this draft if they’re viewing a taller Lonzo Ball as a cautionary tale. Again, Ball is not going to be #1 on my big board, but I think the only players with demonstrably higher ceilings than him are Edwards (who has a low floor) and Hayes. Ball’s passing and rebounding also give him something we haven’t seen in any of our recent lottery picks: a god damn semi-decent floor.
I’ve never thought shooting form matters much. I think most players have an innate shooting sense that matters much more than their actual form. Making adjustments can help improve shooting, but they will never transform a bad shooter into a good shooter and a good shooter will be able to hit shots despite the form.
It’s also worth noting that Ball & Fultz were sub-70% from the FT line. Haliburton is above that mark, but took only 71 FTs over 2 years.
I don’t think you understand the analogy I was drawing. Frank and LaMelo have almost nothing in common in their playing style. But they are both controversial players with major weaknesses whose stats are difficult to evaluate because of the leagues they played in.
A tall PG that can handle, rebound, and pass sounds great, but not when he’s a bad shooter, bad defender and has questionable character and basketball IQ issues.
The desire for an upgrade at PG is understandable, but I don’t think the team should throw away a very high lottery pick or even worse trade up to get one for a very flawed player that doesn’t even fit on the team. It’s quite possible the Knicks answer to “PG of the future” is not in this draft.
The Knicks need shooters at several positions. Rose should also consider SGs, SFs, and PFs that can shoot and not focus squarely on PG unless the right player is there.
For me, LaMelo is a hard “no” for almost every reason imaginable.
What character issues does LaMelo have, aside from being Lavar’s son?
“What character issues does LaMelo have, aside from being Lavar’s son?”
Isn’t that kinda like asking, “Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln….. how did you like the play?”
It seems like maybe Lavar has become less of an issue the last few years?
I think Lavar probably wised up to the fact he could cost his sons a lot of money.
I think it’s cool that Lamelo went to Australia. I haven’t heard any negative reports about him like the ones that seem to swirl around Wiseman. Seems like a typical 18 year old hoops star with the usual pathologies but nothing too crazy.
Name an above-average PG in the past 5 years that is an inefficient shooter. I don’t see it.
Don’t think Fultz is a good example of broken shot but good shooter in college that didn’t translate. His issues appear to be medical or maybe psychological, not due a broken shot. Can’t think of one draft pick that was a great shooter with poor form that turned out bad. Maybe there’s some obvious few that I can’t think of.
” But they are both controversial players with major weaknesses whose stats are difficult to evaluate because of the leagues they played in.”
Frank isn’t really controversial. He is an excellent defensive player with an sucky/embryonic/virtually non existent offensive game. He’s only controversial if you expect him to be Clyde Drexler.
We argue about Frank all the time. And at draft time this board was divided between him and DSJ, as were draft pundits. That’s what I meant by controversial.
Halliburton’s funky shot doesn’t bother me. It seems like there’s a large enough sample size to believe his numbers are real. And his shot, while funky, isn’t “slow.” He actually seems to wind it up and release it from high, not low, so I think getting the shot off won’t be an issue for him.
I like Halliburton for a myriad of reasons. He is the dude I hope we pick. My hope is that we get a high enough spot to pick him (and not risk trading up) but Ball is off the table by then.
What character issues does LaMelo have, aside from being Lavar’s son?
Isn’t that enough?
He’s a self centered player.
I’m not sure I follow you, wetbandit.
Are there guys you’re thinking of with bad form who are good shooters? If a guy has bad form and shoots well over a large sample, then yes, who cares about the form. Often – but not always – guys with bad form and good percentages are just experiencing luck. We saw it first hand with our own Landry Fields.
Another reason form is important in draft analysis is because good form is required to get your shot off. You want fast, compact, hitch-less motion or you’ll be closed out quickly.
Well I can think of a lot of guys with poor form and are were always good shooters: Joe Ingles, Al Horford, Nash, Marion, Bird, Reggie Miller..
The question was how many guys with bad form and good shooting…. go on to be bad shooters
I think the shoplifting was LiAngelo, no? (edit: I see you removed your post)
I think pretty much every major hoop star is pretty self centered on some level.
I’d like to say that shooting form doesn’t matter, that there is more than one way to do it. But then I think about, like, Ray Allen, and how pure his form was and how much he worked on it.
If you are extraordinarily athletic you can get away with it. Durant could get away with it if his form weren’t pristine already. Dirk could. But it’s got to be an issue you worry about.
I think Lonzo will come right but it’s hard to ignore the difference between his college numbers and his pros numbers and how that lines up with scouting evaluations. It’s gone exactly as the eye test people said.
Oh, I think we’re talking about LaMelo’s shot but also Halliburton’s shot?
In his 2 years of college ball, Haliburton only took 40 more 3s than Lonzo Ball in 1yr and less than half as many FTs as Fultz in 1 yr.
The best argument in favor of Haliburton isn’t sample size, but his FT%. As TNFH pointed out previously, FT% is more predictive of NBA 3pt shooting than college 3P%. Here, sample size weighs against him.
I don’t think shooting form adds anything to this analysis. There’s probably as many players with good form who end up sucking in the NBA, despite good college numbers, as there are players with bad form. Derrick Williams comes to mind as a player with good form, good college numbers, and terrible NBA 3PT shooting.
Yeah, I mean I guess my take on shooting form would be this.
If its a bad form and the numbers are bad, then that’s problematic. If its a bad form but the numbers are good, then its probably OK. I would be wary of trying to fix someone’s form when they’re putting up good numbers.
So the form wouldn’t matter that much, then?letic
It’s like, ok this dude’s got a wingspan, or so-and-so vertical, or has some athleticism… who gives a shit, if we look at the numbers anyways
I was curious about the draft record for point guards. LaMelo is projected to go in the top six in all the draft previews I found in a quick search. So I searched for guards drafted in the top six in the last ten drafts and then picked the point guards out of the list. I found Lillard, Irving, Wall, Beal, Smart, Young, Fox, Russell, Lonzo Ball, Morant, Fulton, Exum and Culver. If LaMelo is drafted number one, which some mock drafts predict, is he really going to be as good as the better names on the list above? I doubt it, but it’s what people will expect from him. This is a draft made for disappointment.
I mean, its kind of weird/random to ask “is her really going to be as good as the better names on the list above?”
Well, I don’t know. He’s 18 (or 19 years old) and one of the top prospects in this year’s draft, so he could be as good (or better) than some of the better names on that list.
I could also ask “is he definitely better than the not so good names on this list?” That list has guards that score a lot, guards that are great passers, guards that are good on defense…it’s a nice list but its also a wide variety of players.
I have no idea what Ball can or can’t be. I guess that’s why they call it a LOTTERY? But if he’s one of the top picks in this year’s draft, then I would say there is a chance he can become as good (if not better) than the people on that list.
Also, he is not Lonzo Ball. He is LaMelo Ball. I only say this because I see a lot of people making assumptions about him based on his brother. Even if they have similarities to their game, they are different people and will therefore develop on different paths. Brook Lopez and Robin Lopez are different players. Giannis’ brother wasn’t as good as he is. It seems when a player comes into the league and is really good, then people think his brother will also potentially be good. But if a player comes into the league and isn’t good, then people assume his brother won’t be good.
My brother is great at math, I’m an artist. We are not the same person even if we share personality traits and have some overlapping skills.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Lonzo is excellent on defense, LaMelo not so much. Lonzo puts the work in, I’m skeptical LaMelo will do the same.
On the plus side for LaMelo, he looks shiftier with the ball which should help in the halfcourt and he projects as a better rebounder. I really don’t think the two will end up being that similar despite the superficial similarities.
You could be right, and I hope you will be because I suspect the Knicks will pick him if he’s available. But I worry that the analysts are right, this is a weak draft, and no one on in it is as good a prospect as the top names on the list I posted.
I’m okay with getting LaMelo, as long as we don’t have to trade LaGallo, LaWilsonChandler, and LaDraftpicks to get him.
lamelo’s comps with his brother aren’t just lazy….. they have a lot of similarities right down to the numbers and the shooting form….
yes lamelo is taller… and yes lamelo drove to the basket more…. but essentially the games are very similar…. lamelo from my estimates based on his 2pt fg% is going to struggle driving and scoring efficiently because of it…. that’s essentially is lonzo’s problem…. that also is frank’s problem…. and also a problem for most tall pg’s who fail for that matter… if you can’t do that the bar for you to shoot well .. and not just in 3p land… is higher….
what lamelo has going for him is that he gets to the line better than lonzo did… it’s a lot better actually…. but it’s still not anything close to elite territory…. so what you have is essentially lonzo who gets 1-2 more ft’s a game…. which is a difference but it probably won’t make a huge one….
all this of course changes if he completely overhauls his game…. which is possible… he’s not completely untalented… and good passer’s generally adjust their games well to be productive…. what my concern is that lamelo’s version of productive is more ricky rubio than jason kidd….
and when ppl say he has all this upside… i challenge someone to bring a comp…. what level of upside are we talking here? it’s not unlimited… he is not magic… he is not even penny hardaway… so what is it?
When I read draft previews LaMelo sounds like Ricky Rubio.
Donnie – LMFAO. Best comment of the day!
To be clear, I like Halliburton. We need shooting badly. I mean, we need pretty much everything but 3 point shooting is our biggest weakness and you can’t have that in today’s game. So to get a potentially really good 3 point shooter on a rookie contract…sign me up. This year there is no top prospect really, so I think in a way its ok to draft for need since A) who is to say who the best player is and B) we have a ton of needs.
Plus, I like Halliburton’s intangibles and what he has between the ears.
My hope. We get a high enough pick that The Knicks don’t feel the need to trade up to get their guy but LaMelo is taken before Halliburton and they settle for Halliburton. Also, all this LaMelo is their top pick stuff…it could be misdirection. In the past the Knicks weren’t clever enough to do this but maybe they are now with new management?
I also like how Halliburton potentially fits with RJ and I like that Halliburton doesn’t prevent us from taking another PG or if we do the unthinkable and make that CP3 trade (giving up no assetts, of course).
this is a weak draft but it doesn’t really take much for a weak draft to turn into a pretty strong one….
the 2011 kyrie irving draft was looked at .. aside from kyrie… as a very weak draft… derrick williams came out of nowhere.. kanter never even played.. thompson rated well analytically but rated poorly with scouts… a couple of not so well known euro prospects and that was the top 5… the rest of the first round was made up of soso upper classmen….
and those upper classmen came through… klay, kemba, butler, the morris brothers, kawhi of course… and a first round littered with the who’s who of solid nba role players….
coming in… this is a weakish draft compared to what we had in the last few years…. but there are plenty of guys with talent that can contribute and pan out in big ways….. this also could be a draft where there aren’t many useful players either but sometimes when you flip a coin 10x they all come up heads….
just because it’s a weak draft doesn’t mean you can’t come away with a good player…. in fact it’s probably easier to draft one in a weak draft…
SHUT IT DOWN
LaTaNKiNg DoEnS’T LaWoRk
You described it–a taller, slightly-more-of-a-scoring-threat Lonzo Ball. I would be pretty happy with that outcome. I don’t think he has a super high ceiling (I only see that from Hayes, Edwards, and possibly Okongwu in this draft), but that would be a damn nice player to have if you ask me.
I see a lot of people assuming Haliburton is a lock to be a good 3PT shooter. I don’t know about that. I see the 3PT%, but that isn’t all that predictive of NBA 3PT% and he gets to the line so sparingly (which is a problem in and of itself) it’s hard to know what to make of his FT%.
He still might wind up being ahead of Ball for me, he definitely has a higher floor just because it’s much easier to project his statistical profile, but he comes with his share of questions too.
one of the many weird things about Lonzo is he can’t make even half of the infrequent fts he attempts.
That draft was crazy because Kawhi was so clearly a top ten pick that it just made no sense.
Just sniffed around the Shaun Livingston factoids and things I did not know — he never broke 10 pts per game, ever. And he is just barely ahead of Ben Simmons in the number of 3pters he took, with only a few going in his whole dang career. Even after all that time with GSW. So an interesting comp.
As for LaMelo, I also don’t think Lonzo is a lazy comp. Besides the genetic similarity (that Swift correctly batted away), they both play the same position with similar size, and seem to have similar skill sets and gaps. Lonzo seems to have suddenly learned how to shoot the 3 — maybe – after two years of suckitude and looking lost (yes it was the pre-Lebron Lakers mess, but still). You’d expect LaMelo to spend two years being lost as well, just because youthful point guard. But will he also suddenly learn to shoot? Not impossible, especially if Lonzo shares tips over Thanksgiving turkey or something. But good lord, even two years of a point guard with lousy shooting and lackadaisical defense would make me weep, since this team is already defined by those two traits.
Also not sure Rubio is a good comp, outside of good passer with no shot. He was/is a savant, and had six years of professional experience before coming to the NBA. I think he was only 20 (he started as a pro at 14!), but he was emotionally ready to lead a professional team.
I just want someone who can shoot. I’d take Trent Tucker.
I’d take Hubert Davis.
Its settled then. We draft LaMelo and trade for Chris Paul. Let CP3 run the show while LaMelo learns from the best there is. Then LaMelo takes over once CP3’s contract is done!
I joke…or do I?
I’ve thought about this alot actually.
If we don’t give up assets to get CP3 (like real assets..not Knox)…and in fact maybe get a draft pick back from OKC…this wouldn’t be the worse plan.
Next season will start later and be a shorter season. So you’re looking at one and 3/4’s season of CP3. LaMelo could even start some games if we rested CP3 on back to backs and in year 2 maybe LaMelo could start more or they could even start alongside each other in some 2 PG lineups with RJ at the 3.
I mean, what the heck would Chris Paul be doing on the court with a shitty team like this? He actually has an NBA-talented team with Gallinari, Steven Adams, etc. They probably have 5 players more talented than our best. What’s the point, 8-10th seed? What, the team has found its young core and is waiting for it to grow? Seriously? This would only make sense if Leon Rose started going after guys like Paul, Gallinari, Van Vleet, Bogdan, and I dunno, Marcus Morris lol
I don’t think CP3 has given up on trying to win a ring. I suspect he and his agent will do everything they can to avoid a trade to the Knicks. I doubt he wants to spend his last couple of years in the league mentoring our recent draft picks. OKC may want to move him, but even they will probably respect his wishes enough to try to find a contender. Maybe the Knicks can somehow help facilitate a deal.
Yeah, it makes zero sense for Paul to end his illustrious career on a cellar dweller.
Well, he’d be in NYC, not OKC for one thing. That’s a pretty big deal. Have you been to OKC? Its fine but it ain’t NYC.
Also, the East sucks. CP3, if healthy and starting, would make us a playoff team.
Also, people keep doing this on this blog where they act like our team was one of the worst teams in the NBA and we have absolutely no talent. That just isn’t true.
Under Mike Miller we were on a 30 to 32 win pace for the season.
Mitch Rob would be the next Tyson Chandler/DeAndre lob partner for CP3.
The Knicks probably wouldn’t be as good as OKC was this season but we’d be a playoff team in the East and he’d be playing in the Garden and would be the main draw/attraction. Plus, its 2 seasons and he could be traded to a contender potentially.
Also, like, the Knicks could make other moves AFTER they trade for CP3, right? If the idea is we are trading for him and not giving up assets in return (Knox would be fine, LOL), then we’d have draft picks and maybe some left over cap space to get another star or a good role player or two.
I agree, CP3 would probably prefer to go to a contender. But what contender could trade for him?
If the choice is between being on a good team in OKC in a tougher western conference or being on a playoff team in the East at Madison Square Garden..I think there are reasons he would prefer the knicks.
You gotta imagine that Chris Paul watches top-5 all-time PF Charles Barkley get roasted by the likes of NBA Champion Kenny Smith and sees a possible future as a scrotum-shaped, ring-less punching bag of a TV analyst for the likes of Richard Jefferson and David West. There’s no way he’s leaving the league without a last look at a championship run.
And cue swiftandabundant with the unbridled optimism.
Dude, we need unbridled optimism right now!
Look, I don’t know what Chris Paul wants. Just saying its not crazy that he would be ok coming to The Knicks and I’m having a hard time finding a contender team that could make a move for him.
If the choice is between being in OKC on a decently good team in Oklahoma City that never plays on national tv and would most likely lose in the first round of the western conference or playing for The Knicks in NYC and losing in the first round of the playoffs, I think its not crazy to want the Knicks over OKC.
I just go back to when STAT came here in 2010 and was good for that first season. Before Melo showed up, STAT was the toast of the town, on the cover of magazines, got endorsement deals he had never gotten before. The garden was packed every night, ticket sales went through the roof as did jersey sales, etc.
A star player in NYC making The Knicks respectable gets a lot of attention. We’d be decent with CP3. Not contenders but decent. And we’d have a lot of young players and picks to get better over the next few years.
Plus, he could be traded at the deadline the following year to a contender if it doesn’t work out.
I NEED OPTIMISM JOWLES! NOW MORE THAN EVER!!!
Shaun Livingston was a good role player that performed well under playoff pressure, but we already have a couple of players on this team that can become Shaun Livingston caliber players (or better) with a couple of years of development, If we come out of this draft with Shaun Livingston, that would be a major disappointment to me.
We need outside shooters that create space efficiently.
That brings me to an often overlooked player on this team. Alonzo Trier doesn’t do enough things well to be considered a future starter on a good team, but he does do several things very well. He can create his own shot, get to the FT line, shoot from 3, and score efficiently. I don’t have the foggiest idea why he’s been in the doghouse unless there are attitude or off the court issues we don’t know about. He has 6th man written all over him in bright neon lights. I think not bringing him back would be a mistake. It’s not that easy to find a young potentially high level efficient scoring machine off the bench as cheap as he’d be.
I do wish some sports writer sitting on his hands between ‘When will the NBA open’ non-stories would make some calls and write the ‘What’s up with Alonzo’ story. It’s begging to be written, and it’s a good reason for a new thread, too…
Something important to note about Livingston was that while he was nominally a PG throughout his career, he had the defensive chops (and of course, the size) to guard other positions and did so frequently in Golden State. You don’t necessarily need to get quality outside shooting from the PG position but you do generally need to have a baseline amount of shooting in every lineup and it’s harder to get that from positions further up the size spectrum. So having a limited jumpshot as a PG can be significantly less of an issue if you can guard 2s and 3s and thus easily share lineups with other small guards (particularly if the starting guards on your team happen to be arguably the two greatest shooters ever).
So I think an important question for a LaMelo-Livingston comparison is whether LaMelo will have the chops to guard positions other than the 1. He clearly has the size but I think he currently clearly doesn’t have the strength (so it will depend how he grows into his body) and the want-to is an open question. If he’s a one position defender at the 1 who can’t shoot that’s tough (and obviously an awful fit with RJ, but that’s a bit of a seperate issue). If you think in time he will be capable of playing in lineups where he guards the 2 or even the 3 in certain matchups I think it becomes a lot easier to work around that issue.
I will happily give up my Haliburton fantasy for your pick-LaMelo-and-trade-for-Steph-and-Klay fantasy…
‘What’s up with Alonzo’
Trier played so little this season that I actually googled Alonzo Mourning as I tried to figure out what you were talking about. I found a Wilbon story that is classic Psycho Jordan. Apparently Wilbon went to Chicago for a Hornets game in Zo’s rookie year to profile him. He went to the Chicago locker room to get some quotes from Jordan. Jordan figured out what was going on and went ballistic, totally affronted that someone would want his thoughts on a GEORGETOWN rookie. He made it his mission to destroy Zo that night, doubleteaming him every time he got the ball. He didn’t score when Jordan was on the court.
What a bizarre dude.
***Have you been to OKC? Its fine but it ain’t NYC.***
NYC ain’t NYC anymore either.
***I’d take Hubert Davis.***
Yeah, Hubert would be good today. He could actually handle the ball and pass well too, which tends to be forgotten.
There are a bunch of guys from the 90s that were probably born 15 years too early. Guys like Davis, Dana Baros, Terry Dehere, and Scott Skiles could have been so much more.
NYC ain’t NYC anymore if you’re a regular dude making regular money. If you’re a millionaire celebrity, its probably better than ever though.
What has happened to NYC is so sad though. My brother moved to NYC in 1990 and I used to visit him all the time in high school and college. Then I moved there in 1999 and lived there through 2013. NYC in the 90’s was the best. 9-11 started changing things but even in the 2000’s it still felt like NYC in a lot of places.
But by the time I left in 2013, I really felt the sea change. Like the city wasn’t for people like me anymore. I lived out in Woodside and I loved that part of Queens cause to me it still felt like the old NYC for the working class dude.
I’ve only been back to NYC once since I moved away. I went back in 2017 and even in the 4 years that I left, the change was remarkable. For most of my time there I worked around St. Marks (I worked stage crew for Blue Man Group and also front of house sometimes at The Public). Man, St. Marks place made me so sad when I went back in 2017.
My brother is still there, living out in Woodside and he says that Woodside/Jackson Heights is still pretty much unchanged but you can see the gentrification starting to seep in around the edges. I worry this coronavirus is going to be the nail in the coffin. My brother was never going to leave and now he’s for the first time saying “I can’t do it anymore. I gotta get out.”
…he never posted a positive OBPM in a single season, had a career 21 AST% and posted a total VORP of 4.3 (11.6 wins against replacement) over 17,188 minutes played.
He had a beautiful midrange game and had a nice run as a bench player on the most stacked team of the century so far, but he was an underachiever at the #4 slot. His knee injury and comeback make for some great storytelling, but the fact is that Livingston was a career bench player. And scrolling up, I see that Lockwood said it first.
By chance, were you a youth in the 90s? A young adult or late-adolescent, writing your own coming-of-age story on the late weekend nights? Because yeah, if so, you’re going to say that NYC in the 90s was the best.
The template is:
[place I lived] in the [time during which I was becoming an adult] was the best
Here’s Paulie Walnuts, lamenting the changing of the times.
Yeah, Jowles, I was. I get the fallacy of thinking the times when you were young were the best of times. Kind of like how everyone thinks the cast of SNL when they were in 8th grade was the best (but seriously, late 80s SNL WAS the best).
But you can’t honestly tell me NYC didn’t change significantly after 9-11. The insurance rates for bars and clubs went through the roof and this lead to many amazing night club and music venues going out of business in the 2000s.
When I moved to NYC in the 90s you could go to the LES/Tribeca and for a $5 to $10 cover, go see amazing live music or hear DJ’s spin in any number of clubs, lounges or music venues. Wetlands, SOBS, Smalls, Detour, Dharma, BOB, Coney Island High, CBGB (admittedly not as cool by the late 90s but still a place to hear live music), Knitting Factory, The Bottom Line, Brownies…I could go on an on. You wanted to listen to Jazz, Hip Hop, Rock, Folk music, trip hop/electronica/dj music…didn’t matter. It was all there and you could go to 3 or 4 places a night…all within walking distance or a short cab ride away. This isn’t even mentioning the mega clubs where you’d pay $20 to $40 cover to hear electronica dance music…limelight, tunnel, twilo, life, sound factory….you could dance the night away. Not to mention all of the bars that didn’t ID people or where someone could light up a joint and no one said anything and often times that joint got passed around by complete strangers (this happened several times to me).
Sure, there was/is still live music in NYC. But the nightlife scene changed in the 2000’s and NYC became a lot less fun than it used to be. Sure, some of that is getting older and not going out as much but the easy access to it all, the cheap entertainment that was available to people…it all changed after 9-11. Not all at once but the city, which had been cleaned up to some degree in the 90s, became hyper gentrified.
New York is always changing. It wouldn’t surprise me if this crisis leads to an era that reshapes how people look at the city. Hopefully for the better.
And while there are still plenty of ways to see live music in NYC…these days its going to be more high end. Expensive concert tickets at larger venues. Its been pretty well documented how 9-11, gentrification, the 2009 financial crash (and now covid-19) has made life incredibly difficult for working class/middle class artists to make a living. Its like everything. You can pay top dollar for Broadway or concerts or get a fancy cocktail at some super nice bar for $20 but the places with $5 covers where you hear some great jazz band or a funky but fun dive bar where you can drink all night with you buddies for cheap…these places, especially in NYC, are disappearing.
***NYC ain’t NYC anymore if you’re a regular dude making regular money. If you’re a millionaire celebrity, its probably better than ever though.***
I don’t know. I think people are reconsidering dense urban living in the 21st century, and the people that have the luxury of voluntary migration are the rich people. Manhattan already had a depressed luxury real estate market before the pandemic. Now the landscape has changed even more drastically.
We’ve already been seeing players choose Milwaukee, San Antonio, and other “mid-tier” cities over New York. It was basketball related, but now there could be real-life factors at play that make the OKCs of the league a lot more attractive.
I’m waffling back and forth between optimism and pessimism when it comes to covid and the long term affects it will have.
On the one hand, I can see a world where more people have flexible work schedules and can work from home, making it easier to acomodate for their families. More sick time and people being encouraged to take that. I could see this leading to a stronger social safety net…medicare for all (or whatever you want to call it), UBI, etc.
At the same time, I see this leading to more income inequality. Automation and AI technology being ramped up even faster to replace workers in the name of health and safety and more widespread civil unrest.
As far as kids/young people today. I think they have a lot of things better than we did in some ways but also have a lot of things worse. I mean, it must be amazing as a kid to have something like spotify, get into a certain band and have access to all of their music and get instant recommendations of similar artists and music and listen to literally everything that has ever been made. And while I loved the movies of my youth, kids today have so much better television and movies to choose from and again can literally watch anything ever made if they so chose. To be able to learn about stuff like that must be amazing.
But they also don’t have the freedom to be bored like we did. Just being able to go out with your friends for hours at a time and not have to be in contact with your parents, just do whatever…not have every moment in their life accounted for and planned…I can’t imagine what that must be like.
Atkinson interviewing for Knicks job….
But Thibodeau is on the inside rail
Trust the process?
I love when dusty gen–x’ers slag the city nowadays.
swift, I’m 100% with you. I went to school in NYC in the late 80s, graduated in 90 and moved into a basement in SoHo that I shared with two other people. Little Italy was still (barely) a thing, and I got fresh mozz and pasta every day (super cheap and delicious) and went out at night for almost no money. It helped that as a musician I could get into every club for free, but as you said, they were all $5 cover charges, and you could check out 6 different gigs in one night.
The key thing is catching a place between gritty despair and luxe gentrification. That was NYC in the 90s. The 80s were rough; the city had rebounded a bit after the apparently awful 70s, but there was crack and crime and plenty of white flight. And somewhere in the 2000s, it became Russian oligarchs buying penthouse apartments as investments. 9/11 was definitely a blow; it was a very quiet city for a year or two after that. But it was also the music places closing, the pizza joints being pushed out, the last of the grime being washed clean (at least in most of Manhattan). But between those decades, the 90s was awesome. Still some of the grit people associate with NY, still rough around the edges, the energy of growth was amazing.
NYC may have another moment, but there is no question that in music, letters, popular culture, finance, fashion – that was a peak period for one of the greatest cities in the world.
But I’m sure Cleveland is nice this time of year, too….
some good words swift and abundant (when just being swift ain’t enough :)…
got a call this morning from god daughter at work…she’s 18, just got her first “real” job at an amazon warehouse…freaking 17 dollars an hour…hell, amazon doesn’t even ask for proof of citizenship or a high school diploma…great opportunity for her…
for those of you familiar with warehousing – it is a pretty tough job…the first week was tough cause of the new physicality she was experiencing…the third week was tough because the mental realization that this is life going forward (working at least 40 hours a week busting your butt for the next 3 or 4 decades) finally hit her…
so, as you can imagine – a big warehouse full of not so terrifically qualified workers and what do you know – they’re seeing a lot of covid cases in the warehouse…five in the past week…
she tells me they’ll let her take up to 2 un-paid weeks off (which is amazing cuz she’s only been there three weeks)…i’m worried that once she let’s herself “quit”/finds an out – it’ll be a habit…i could hear it in her voice last week that she was looking for a way out…
i feel like one of those fox talking heads telling her – you can get sick and die just going to the store, plus – your young, if you do get sick you’ll most likely be fine and recover 100%…
i don’t know man…is demonstrating a good work ethic worth potentially getting sick, her getting her family sick…i guess for me the answer is always yes, i just don’t know how smart that really is though…
ha, yeah, no thanks 🙂
okay, i’m old and ignorant – wtf does “slag” mean…
Slag is British slang for attack someone/something with words (it evolved from slag being used to just describe a bad person, and then it evolved to being a verb used when insulting someone).
The political apathy of the average gen xer is more responsible for the hell world we live in than people care to admit.
I’m sure NYC is still fun for young people. I’m not saying that. Just that NYC in the 90s was in a nice sweet spot like geo said. Cleaned up just a bit to be safe in most areas but still gritty enough to get in trouble and very easy to go out for a night on the cheap. I can’t overstate how awesome the music/club scene was during that time. The options were endless.
Oaktree…that is probably true. We were so hell bent on not being the idealistic hippie baby boomer who then becomes a hypocritical yuppie that we just kind of removed ourselves from it all.
I’m a young gen x’er by the way. I guess I’d be in that weird Xennial generation where I have a bit of millenial and gen x’er both in me.
But Gen X’ers were also the original “generation that won’t do as well as their parents” generation. They did benefit from the 90s economy being good but many of them like my brother entered the job market in the early 90s when the economy was horrible. Then there was the dot com crash/9-11 around the 2000s and the financial crash. Millenials have had it worse, but gen x got it worse than the boomers for sure.
There’s also this thing when you’re a gen x’er where you get really annoyed at the fact that all of our culture wars are focused on boomers vs. millenials.
Apathy, or worse, force-feeding themselves shitty opinion television and believing it’s objective truth. My wife works in a Boomer-heavy office. You would not believe the cable-news bullshit they vomit on a daily basis.
Until he actually washes up -something he has shown no sign of doing – any team that has Chris Paul next year will not be in the cellar.
PS I’m feeling the love for my namesake, #44.
Pay attention to moving vans now. I saw more last weekend than ever.
I’m from a small city on the Hudson that’s recently gotten a ton of press for the cool, sleepy, artsy NYC bedroom community it’s become. I have townie friends who have for years pissed away what could have been a down payment on a modest home, and now they’re whinging about the explosion of home sales, especially in the few places that people really want to live. Most of the new residents are transplants from the city. They ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
Millennials love them some hindsight. Just wait til Gen Zers use it on you.