NY Post: Development-focused Knicks add ex-Westchester coach Mike Miller to staff

Jeffrey Epstein wrote a will just two days before his suicide, saying he had about $578 million in assets that he placed in a trust, which could complicate efforts by women who say he sexually abused them to collect damages.
Epstein, who died Aug. 10 in a federal jail cell in Manhattan, asked that Darren K. Indyke and Richard D. Kahn be appointed as executors, according to a copy of the will filed Aug. 15 with the court in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

Experts say that it’s not unusual to write your will days before you unexpectedly die, but it is far more common that people who create a will one day and die the next day knew they were going to kill themself.

This article makes me feel a lot better about the Taj Gibson overpay. Wish we had signed him instead of Noah!

Yeah, that was a sweet article. It doesn’t really affect my opinion on the signing either way, but it definitely is a nice story.

Re: Knox, it seems important to note in the SF vs PF debate that he is a woeful playmaker and I see no reason to believe that will ever change. I don’t know where to find NBA positional averages for things like AST%, but for SFs I’m fairly certain the average is a lot higher than our boy’s 6.0%. That doesn’t necessarily mean Knox can’t be a SF, but if you’re putting him there you’re putting a ton of pressure on your guards in terms of both playmaking and ball-handling (he can handle a bit in transition but you really don’t want to see him doing it in the half-court).

Overall, because of his plus shooting and not-totally-awful transition ability I think he has the necessary skillset to be an NBA player. Not a particularly impactful one, but not Frank Ntilikina either. Here’s what worries me though; I think in order for him to become legitimately productive he needs to basically limit himself to spot up 3s and transition opportunities. Is a guy who was a top-10 recruit, lead Kentucky in FGAs, got drafted in the lottery, and then lead the New York Knicks in FGAs as a rookie going to be willing to do that? Color me skeptical, so I’m still seeing either a bust or a badly overpaid chucker.

Experts say that it’s not unusual to write your will days before you unexpectedly die, but it is far more common that people who create a will one day and die the next day knew they were going to kill themself.

His cellmate was transferred hours before his death, on the very same night that he was unattended between 3 AM and 6:30 AM. Did he just guess right on both counts while preparing that will?

His cellmate was transferred hours before his death, on the very same night that he was unattended between 3 AM and 6:30 AM. Did he just guess right on both counts while preparing that will?

The whole thing with Epstein seems to revolve around people thinking that rich and powerful people had the ability to orchestrate a murder in prison.

Yet those same people are somehow closed to the possibility that a rich and powerful person had the ability to orchestrate his own suicide in prison.

I don’t really have an opinion either way, that just strikes me as stupid.

Knox, it seems important to note in the SF vs PF debate that he is a woeful playmaker

This is true, both in 1200 college minutes and 2100 NBA minutes

and I see no reason to believe that will ever change.

Of course, because he was obviously a finished product at age 19. I mean, seriously, how can you possibly say that? Here’s a clip from summer league, where Knox makes several nice passes for assists. Obviously it’s only summer league, but the vision, decision-making, willingness and mechanics were there. Is it possible that with coaching, maturity, reps, film study, better teammates, accountability, etc that he could make plays like this more often? Of course not.

I think in order for him to become legitimately productive he needs to basically limit himself to spot up 3s and transition opportunities.

Of course, because he will never improve his footwork, touch or decision-making. He is already 20, after all. No way that he becomes more efficient in other offensive areas at this point.

Frankly, I don’t think anybody coaching him or the FO gives a fuck any more about where he was drafted or what his role was in college, and I would guess that Knox doesn’t either. If you’re convinced that he an Andrew Wiggins-level head case, I guess there’s no talking you out of it. But everything he says seems to indicate that he knows he needs to improve across the board, and he clearly showed signs of better court vision and decision-making in summer league, which is all we have to go on right now.

And all signs right now seem to be pointed at the coaches and FO not coddling him with tons of undeserved minutes while losses pile up. If he’s not held accountable, then I agree that it is less likely that he will improve as a passer or will score more efficiently and play better D. But to put him in a box based on his play last year or before is counterproductive. Force him to get better and develop a well-rounded game, and if he doesn’t, simply cut him loose or trade him.

Portis seems like a guy that you like to root for when he’s on your team, but hate when he’s on the other team…kind of like a Kelly Olynyk, Tyler Hansbrough, Marcus Smart, etc. My guess is that Mirotic was an asshole and even though Portis shouldn’t have punched him, he was probably on the right side of the argument.

Occam’s razor seems to indicate he created those conditions for himself. I don’t think it’s terribly hard for a man worth $600mm to discreetly pay off a few prison workers.

Portis seems like a guy that you like to root for when he’s on your team, but hate when he’s on the other team…kind of like a Kelly Olynyk, Tyler Hansbrough, Marcus Smart, etc. My guess is that Mirotic was an asshole and even though Portis shouldn’t have punched him, he was probably on the right side of the argument.

Yeah, notice how none of the teammates defended Mirotic? Although, to be fair, they didn’t seem to be fans of Portis, either, but in that argument, the rest of the team seemed to be on Portis’ side, which is a stunning turn of events when the guy they’re siding with punched a teammate so hard that the guy missed the start of the season!

so if you’re the lakers trying to replace boogie, do you choose:
1). howard
2). noah
3). gortat
4). spreights

i think i’d go with gortat…

I’d just go with Howard, he still had good numbers when he did play in the last two seasons. You hope Lebron controls his antics and lights a bit of a fire under him, and if it doesn’t work you just cut him like the Rockets did with Melo. Those other guys are all definitely worse than Howard if he can play.

Can Howard get off the ground these days? His few highlights from last year make him look like a totally different player.

Howard.

Then you sign Melo, get Bosh/Wade to come out of retirement and then you swing for the CP3 trade. Then AD looks around and thinks “wait, am I living in my junior high fantasy world?” Then they implode, AD demands a trade and The Lakers suck for the next decade.

The way I feel about James Dolan is that if the Knicks were to win a championship under his ownership (lol), I would consider it bittersweet since I’d have to watch him celebrate it. I imagine if I were a Lakers fan, I would have a milder case of that with Dwight. One, because of his time on the Lakers, and two, because he is one of the least likable players in the NBA.

Now THAT’S a version of JD and the Straight Shot I can get behind!

He’s more goofy than anything else.

that’s kind of what i thought too, until it came out he was threatening some transgender person for revealing a relationship they had…i got to be honest, it was a little bit funny that he so happened to have some glute issue right about the same time…

yes, stretching is a key ingredient for most activities in life…

I don’t care much about Howard either, he doesn’t seem like a bad person, just a immature guy who’s become a millionaire superstar way too early. He had no reason to try to come back to play games for a Wizards team that was going nowhere, so maybe he could be healthy, I have no idea.

I did some touring many years ago that was kind of a large operation, there were like 20 people in the traveling party. It was a super fun group of people for the most part, except for one guy, who happened to be the tour manager.

This guy wasn’t really a bad person, but he was just a VIBE KILLER. He just had the lamest sense of humor, he had a terrible temper and would get super flustered and upset at the least little thing that would go wrong, he’d freak out on you if you were five minutes late for something, he would be super condescending and assholish to all the people at the venues… Nobody wanted to sit next to him on a flight, nobody wanted to eat dinner with him, people would just sort of slink away when he’d come around. Everybody talked shit about him and dreamed of the day when he wouldn’t be tour manager. I imagine this is what Dwight is like.

The lame humor was the worst part of all of it. This was a group of super funny and witty people and he would try to keep up by doing things such as his Austin Powers impersonation. HILARIOUS. Comedy gold every time.

It depends on how you value players but running a few b-ref querries Camby is one of the best players to never make an all star team

The lame humor was the worst part of all of it. This was a group of super funny and witty people and he would try to keep up by doing things such as his Austin Powers impersonation. HILARIOUS. Comedy gold every time.

I remember a particular tour, one of the longer ones I’d been on, with a hired-gun (and totally untalented) bassist who reminded me of Steve Carell’s character in Anchorman. Just totally empty but for his simmering desire to get YouTube famous. (He later went on to do unboxing videos and a 30th percentile cover of “A Whole New World” {a song that needs no covering, ever, for any reason} while making awkward eye contact with the webcam.) Let me tell y’all, it’s better to be around a total bore than a guy who thinks he’s performing stand-up all of the fucking time, especially when you’re trapped on the road with that person. I cannot fucking imagine what it’s like being on the road with Dwight Howard for eight straight months. Buses, planes, practice, locker room, games, tape sessions — these guys need to be tolerable at minimum. Dwight reminds me of an unfunny Michael Scott. This is not a compliment.

One of my past bands “hired” a friend to be our “drum tech” for a long studio session, i.e. we borrowed his amazing custom Pork Pie kit and he needed to be there to make sure it didn’t get fucked up. He was basically the guy you mentioned in your post, constantly making jokes that no one would laugh at. For three days he went hard after every low-hanging fruit, and after the first 20 minutes, the laughter stopped right quick. Once we got into the flow of things, the appetite for “humor” was totally gone. Eventually the engineer looked at me and said, “There are too many people in the studio right now.” Everyone else turned and looked at the guy, who threw his hands up in the air and was like, “Okay, I’ll go for a walk.” He shut the fuck up for the rest of the session. I don’t think Howard is capable of that.

Agree about Sabonis. Conley is a multiple all-star level player in a conference with 3-4 all-time great and other extremely good PGs. (Westbrook is overrated but will be a sure first-ballot HOFer.) Most of the rest, including Camby, are fringe all-star types, kind of random who gets on (Starks and Lee are two who made it but are similar to the guys on this list) and who doesn’t.

jamal got robbed…

Starks and Lee are two who made it but are similar to the guys on this list

I thought for a second you were saying that Courtney Lee made an All-Star Game once. I was thinking, “Dang, maybe we should have gotten a first for him if he was an All-Star!”

Nice to see how the Mets are dealing with injuries to Cano and McNeil. Rosario has stepped up big time, Conforto, Davis, Ramos and Alonso are all raking. Lagares is waking up and Panik was a great under-the-radar acquisition. It’s a fun, scrappy team to root for…great chemistry and solid but not spectacular in all areas and 5 starters that are all front-of-rotation caliber guys.

One thing I like about them is that they seem to grind out good at-bats vs. tough pitching. Not a bunch of free swingers.

Haven’t done a deep dive into the stats but my gut feeling is that Derek Harper is the best player on that list.

Just saw this on reddit. Over the last 19 years, the Seattle SuperSonics have won more playoff games, 8, than the Knicks, 7. Seattle hasn’t had a basketball team since the 2007-08 season.

The young Sabonis was, by all accounts, Jokic with great defense. (And/or Walton with healthy feet.)

@52
Nimmo and Lowrie are back playing in rehab again, so it’ll be interesting to see if either or both can get back and help with the stretch run.

I hope to never see Cespedes and Cano on the field as Mets again, but they’ll both be back next year. Well, Cano will. Who knows about Cespedes.

Apparently he looks different and better. I will believe it when I see it in the NBA.

The problem with Frank will always be that he doesn’t have any quick twitch burst. Doesn’t seem to hurt him on defense but it renders him completely useless on offense.

I like what he says about his defense and how much stronger he looks now. Apparently not getting muscled by anyone.

Man, it’s August isn’t it….

I genuinely enjoy watching him play defense. That’s really all I can say in the end about Frank.

Sabonis got hurt before he got drafted in 86 and was still rehabbing in 88 because he had to have another surgery to his achilles. That timeframe is putting him up against Magic and Jordan for MVPs . I guess if Portland was dominant during that time I could see it, but I don’t know if he would be able to pull it away from those guys.

Maybe the Barkley/Olajuwon/Robinson years? But he was slowing down a lot then, we’d have to handwave the fact that the Soviet Union completely overused him before he recovered from the other injuries. Would he have turned down his national team? Would he even have had the option to turn them down or would they have denied him clearance?

Arvydas is a serious case of what if?

His defense isn’t worth playing 4-on-5 on offense. If he plays another 1000 minutes in the NBA I’ll be shocked.

The problem with Frank will always be that he doesn’t have any quick twitch burst. Doesn’t seem to hurt him on defense but it renders him completely useless on offense.

If you listened to the podcast you would have heard the guest say Franks’s first step is among the many things that look a lot better this year.

His defense isn’t worth playing 4-on-5 on offense. If he plays another 1000 minutes in the NBA I’ll be shocked.

I know, it’s an accident that for two years the Knicks were better with him on the court than off and now France has been better in these games with him on the court than off the court (+36).

Granted, that’s not saying much because the alternatives weren’t any good either on the Knicks. But he’s s not just a good defender. He’s an “impact” defender that can pass and make plays. He’s so good at making the right play on defense, he’s messing up the other team’s offense. Even his NBA level French teammates and foreign opponents are saying that.

He doesn’t have to add much on offense. He needs a consistent 3 pointer. After that the only issue is creating the right lineups (which admittedly may be outside the range of this Knicks team/coach/management but well within the range of people that know what they are doing and that recognize his potential value with patience).

I understand the desire to have good defensive players on the Knicks but the Frank trutherism is just insane. You can’t play in this league with a .400 eFG%, period. There is no amount of defense that compensates for that. Dude could add 50 points of eFG% and still be godawful.

There’s nothing more to say about it. I don’t care if he locked down Tunisia’s point guard. Just stop already.

Sabonis and Bird aren’t what-ifs. They are, despite their injuries, both on the short list of greatest basketball players to ever play.

Ralph Sampson is a big what-if. He was a few years ahead of his time and a few injuries short of becoming truly dominant.

Brandon Roy is a sad case of losing to injury, but he wasn’t on track to be an all time great I don’t think.

While Ewing doesn’t really qualify as a “what if?” I think he’d have had a shot to be equal to or better than Hakeem and Robinson if his knees hadn’t given him problems his entire career- he had surgeries to clean out cartilage after each of his first two seasons and certainly played through pain for a good chunk of his career. Go watch some Georgetown videos- he was an incredible athlete but within three or four years in the NBA he didn’t have nearly the same speed or lift.

So long as he is held accountable, I am all for giving Frank a legitimate shot of being in the rotation. Starting with seeing how he does in FIBA when the real games start.

I tend to be less pessimistic about whether Frank can be “hidden” if he becomes a top-notch defensive guard/wing. I know his offensive numbers were atrocious the last 2 years, but I agree with Strat (and always have on this point) that if he can post 36% on reasonably high volume (say 5 attempts per 36) and only drive opportunistically then he can be a very valuable rotation piece. His shot doesn’t look broken. He was just miscast as a PG from the get-go and would fail in that role no matter how many reps he gets.

You don’t need Harden or Curry to make that work, just a reasonably good offensive lineup. Put him out there with Mitch, a PG and 2 scorers (out of Trier/Ellington/DSjr/maybe Iggy) and let him disrupt the high PnR. See if he can learn to rebound a bit.

Frank already is a top-notch defensive guard/wing. And his ceiling is 1st team all-defense and best wing/point defender in the association. Yes, his offense is so shitty that he’ll probably never be playable enough to play enough to actually be voted 1st team all-defense. Trading him at this low ebb at this age would still be sub-Isiah-caliber GMing, a quintessentially textbook solution in search of a problem.

He doesn’t have to add much on offense.

Is any more evidence needed that the Frankophiles are not living in reality?

I was convinced that Frank’s first step was much improved when he drove on known defensive specialist Omar Abada and *almost* scored a layup.

Right, but he offsets the shitty TS% with elite-level defense.

He’s shitty on offense and great on defense. That’s worse than being shitty on defense and great on offense, but still.

If he was shitty on offense and just mediocre or average on defense, we wouldn’t be having the debate/conversation. And if the same front office that handed Ron Baker 2/9 decides not to exercise the 4th year option … well, that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

What problem exactly does trading him solve? Freeing up minutes for Elfrid Payton? I think not. Puffing up this front office by making the previous one look worse on this one than it really was? I really, really think not.

While Ewing doesn’t really qualify as a “what if?” I think he’d have had a shot to be equal to or better than Hakeem and Robinson if his knees hadn’t given him problems his entire career- he had surgeries to clean out cartilage after each of his first two seasons and certainly played through pain for a good chunk of his career. Go watch some Georgetown videos- he was an incredible athlete but within three or four years in the NBA he didn’t have nearly the same speed or lift.

I don’t think of “what if” scenarios that involve congenital health problems are really what ifs. Tall athletes with chronic knee issues are pre-programmed to be what they are. I think “what if”s should be about freak injuries/bad decisions. Ewing wasn’t as good as Olajuwon because he wasn’t physically as good as Olajuwon. But a player like Sampson, who had an impact injury to his knee and then rushed his rehab, derailing his career before his prime, is a real what if. Same with Len Bias, Drazen Petrovich, etc.

For Sabonis, the only what if is how much better than Robinson, Ewing, Daugherty, etc he would have been had he come and played against them in his prime. We already know he would have been an all time great, because he already is an all time great, just not in the NBA.

If you were playing a pick up game and the other team had a guy who was killing you, and you had a guy who could stop or marginally disrupt that guy, and on offense hardly took any shots -only when he was wide open and hit a decent % of them, and passed/moved the ball to the open guys on his team… wouldn’t you want to play with that guy? I just don’t understand the hate for Frank. He has a place on a winning team.

Even if Frank is phenomenal at defense, he’s a wing. In today’s NBA, wing defense has limited value. Stopping the pick and roll comes first.
As soon as it became clear Frank couldn’t play pg, his defensive value plummeted. Most modern 2’s park on the perimeter and shoot threes. Frank standing next to them does not add significant value.

If RJ could play pg on offense, Frank might have some value defending pgs.

@88, I think that’s right. Although I do think Dotson would fit better due to Trier’s ball dominance not fitting well with RJ, DSJr., and Randle also needing the ball. Hopefully he can nail 3’s off the ball.

Frank has a lot of problems but finishing at the rim isn’t really one of them. He has shot 57.7% from 0-3 feet so far in his career. That is better than Walker, Lowry, Lilliard, Russell, Westbrook, Conley, and Paul, just to name a few, shot from 0-3 feet over their first two seasons. I am not making any claims about Frank’s potential and there are many many things to criticize but finishing at the rim isn’t really one of them. Let’s at least be honest about what he sucks at.

Our rotation is pretty crunched. Unfortunately for Frank, the only place I could see him getting any real playing time is if he beats out Smith Jr. but I doubt he has the PG skills to do that.

Our wings are crowded. Morris and Ellington will probably be in the rotation at the 2 and 3 and Barrett will almost surely see some playing time so that leaves Trier or Knox fighting for that last spot in the rotation at the wing. Dotson and Iggy would have to be incredible in training camp to begin the season in the rotation unless someone gets hurt. For Frank to play at the wing he’d have to beat out Dotson, Iggy, Knox, and Trier which seems unlikely.

As for big men I see Randle and Mitch starting and then Portis and Gibson playing most of the backup minutes at the 4 and 5 with maybe a little of Morris or possibly Knox getting occasional spot minutes.

I continue to think most of you are discounting Smith when you’re putting together your rotations. I’d say he’s still the favorite to start, unless Payton blows his doors off in camp/preseason. But either way, yes, Frank is on the outside of the rotation looking in.

Payton is also at the age where PG’s make a jump, I can see him doing that this year. DSJr still has a few years, being only 22. I think DSJr will have a breakout year in ’20-21 or ’21-22. This last part is complete speculation, but that’s my 2 cents. Even without the jump, I have Payton ahead of DSJr.

Payton isn’t even that good, but our pg play has been so dreadful for so long, many of us are going to fall in love with him as he does unusual Knick pg things like “dribble”, “pentrate”, “pass” and “rebound”.

Yeah, Lucas and Hollins weren’t exactly chumps. (Also, I’ve read Halberstam’s “The Breaks of the Game,” about the season after the Blazers won the title, too many times.)

Unfortunately i haven’t seen BWalton playing and I’m not able to compare him with Arvydas Sabonis whom i happen to watch him here and there during his euro prime.
Arvydas was a Freak of Nature and among the 2 best players- till this very moment-coming from Europe.
He and Drazen were Game Dominators not just Game Changers.
If you were playing against their team you were crossing your fingers for them to get quick fouls or doin Voodoo to miss playing in the game.
Bill Walton once called Sabonis ‘a 7ft3 Larry Bird’ as i just read in wiki !

@98. Johnny Davis,Lionel Hollies, Bobby Gross, Lucas and Walton was (or were?) the starting 5. I think they are underrated and one of the 5 best teams ever. They smashed a loaded Sixers team. Beautiful team to watch. They were even better the next year before Walton got hurt. Loss of a healthy Walton the biggest loss of seeing career greatness in history of the league imho.

There’s zero chance Frank is out of the rotation once training camp rolls around. None of our guards will be able to score against him in practice. You gotta remember that whatever you think of Frank Ntilikina’s offensive game, he was worse last season than he will be coming into camp. If he can stand still and hit jumpers at a 32% rate while bringing the clamps (provided he stays healthy this year), you’re talking about a guy that you have to give 25 minutes a night. I’d guess he’s our starting 2 guard on opening night.

If he can stand still and hit jumpers at a 32% rate while bringing the clamps (provided he stays healthy this year), you’re talking about a guy that you have to give 25 minutes a night.

The Good News: Frank can score at a 32% rate
The Bad News: Only from 2p range

The Worse News: In 2 seasons Frank has not managed to surpass the paltry bar of 32% from 3. Frank’s total fg% barely surpassed it last year at .337.

Defense or not, I don’t see how Frank is playable on offense.

You guys ever stop and consider that maybe you’re overestimating Frank’s defensive prowess juuuuust a little bit? He sounds like Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen and Bill Russell combined according to some of the assessments here. Frank just demolishes opposing defenses, he wrecks every play and turns every opponent into someone who sucks even worse than Frank Ntilikina on offense according to some of you guys.

I mean he’s clearly a pretty nice defender but he’d have to be a destroyer of worlds on defense to make himself a net positive player.

Like I said, concentration camps…

JUST IN: Trump officials unveil rule allowing indefinite migrant family detentions https://t.co/oWbfguSuGe pic.twitter.com/Fk9fFxBXYs— The Hill (@thehill) August 21, 2019

Bron, while I sort of agree with some of the points you make, I disagree with the big picture and with the hyperbolic description of his prowess as a defender. He is a very good point of attack defender, but defense is more nuanced than that. He’s a god-awful defensive rebounder, especially for his size. He regressed in his second season on both ends…did opposing teams figure him out?

The biggest problem is that he was a second-round flyer that was stupidly drafted at #9 and has a $5 mill per price tag. He should have been banished to the G-League from day one until he developed, but no, let’s throw him out there and destroy any confidence he might have developed with reps against players he could handle. He wasn’t just bad. He was the worst offensive player in the league. HE DID NOT BELONG ON AN NBA FLOOR.

But here we are in year 3, and you want to commit to his future with the team based on “he’ll start hitting 3’s any day now and he shuts down Harden and Mitchell.” Seriously?

What’s the point of picking u his option? Will he willing to re-up for the minimum? Is he even worth the minimum? Can’t a long, disruptive wing who is a huge detriment on offense be had for near the minimum via other means?

As I said, Ntilikina was nowhere near ready for the NBA when he was drafted. Had he been drafted as a 2nd round draft-n-stash project, sure, keep him around until he develops. But unless he makes an impact in FIBA (and not some bs spouted by teammates or opponents) it’s time to move on.

his offense got worse year over year

When I read this and think about it, I think it can only be because of some issues that affected his play. Otherwise, players his age don’t get worse from one year to the next. Maybe they don’t figure things out and don’t get much better, but they don’t get worse. In this case I suspect all the injuries affected him and maybe his role changed a little too.

My sincere suggestion if you think Frank is going to get 25 minutes a night is to write up a list of the rotation you expect and how many minutes each guy is going to get. I’d love to see how you’re carving out that much time for him with all the vets and higher-rated prospects on this roster. There’s only 240 minutes a night.

But here we are in year 3, and you want to commit to his future with the team based on “he’ll start hitting 3’s any day now and he shuts down Harden and Mitchell.” Seriously?

Yes very serious. I believe he is an elite defender. He’s able to navigate through screens on the PnR. That’s important because you don’t want Mitch to have to switch on to the opposing 1 guard if he doesn’t have to. Mitch is able to guard the player on the perimeter but you’ve just taken the greatest shot blocker in NBA history away from the rim. You want to avoid that.

If Frank is able to shoot about 35% from 3, that would be fine because of his impact on defense. If he ends up at 37%+ you’re very happy. BTW do you know who shot 29% from 3 his first two seasons at the age of 22-24? Draymond Green. And Bruce Bowen shot around 30% his first 2 seasons at an advanced age.

I don’t know where he’ll end up in terms of 3FG% – nor does anyone else. The issue is opportunity cost here. How are you gonna better spend that money? We’re not a contender. We’ve got a lot of cap. If Frank continues to stink on offense, the cost is minimal (his 4th year). If Frank improves, the benefit is greater. benefit > cost…that’s factorial

I’m ambivalent on picking up Frank’s option because at his age there is still lots of potential upside, but he was so terrible on offense I could see us easily replacing him with a G-Leaguer at any given moment. I’ll say again, his poor defensive rebounding for a 6’6″ supposed defensive specialist is a huge red flag. If he can’t lear how to rebound better, he won’t be in the NBA, simple as that. And $6.1 million for that 4th year is not chump change.

The only way Frank plays 25 mins a game is if Strat is right and Frank is now 6 ft 8 and 240 pounds, so he can play at the 3.
The ‘2’ mins will all go to RJ, Wellington and Dotson.
Frank has no business playing the ‘1’, unless everyone else gets hurt and their G League team folds.

– So we can bring politics into threads? Or only if you have the pre-approved correct opinions?

So we can bring politics into threads? Or only if you have the pre-approved correct opinions?

Are you referring to the post #113? The post everyone else here is ignoring and not engaging with?

You should stick to basketball if you’re interested in having any sort of constructive conversation. But you knew that already.

– So we can bring politics into threads? Or only if you have the pre-approved correct opinions?

shh

You guys ever stop and consider that maybe you’re overestimating Frank’s defensive prowess juuuuust a little bit? He sounds like Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen and Bill Russell combined according to some of the assessments here. Frank just demolishes opposing defenses, he wrecks every play and turns every opponent into someone who sucks even worse than Frank Ntilikina on offense according to some of you guys.

I mean he’s clearly a pretty nice defender but he’d have to be a destroyer of worlds on defense to make himself a net positive player.

We all know Ntilikina is among the worst players in the league on offense. Here are his percentile ranks according to the advanced defensive stats:

TDPOE 62nd
DPIPM 72nd
DRPM 52nd
DRAPM 95th

Overall:

POE 4th
PIPM 10th
RPM 47th
RAPM 75th

That’s a pretty damn big swing.

I’m ambivalent on picking up Frank’s option because at his age there is still lots of potential upside, but he was so terrible on offense I could see us easily replacing him with a G-Leaguer at any given moment. I’ll say again, his poor defensive rebounding for a 6’6? supposed defensive specialist is a huge red flag. If he can’t lear how to rebound better, he won’t be in the NBA, simple as that. And $6.1 million for that 4th year is not chump change.

I agree that Ntilikina sucks today and is likely the worst bust the Knicks have had in ages, but $6.1M on a 22-year-old player is not a lot of money, especially when you’re looking at a 35-win season as an optimistic bet. If you decline the option, he walks for nothing. What’s the point of saving that $6M?

TDPOE

Now you’re just making shit up. POE?

@131 if he shows like literally any development in FIBA and preseason, I would agree. But he has to show something, don’t you think? I mean, was it that big a deal that guys like Bender and Hezonja did not have their options picked up?

Now you’re just making shit up

https://www.bball-index.com/poe-explanation/

https://www.bball-index.com/about/about-the-data/

I don’t really care much about FIBA, which is basically a high-level rec league (limited practices, intuitive systems, lots of players who have never played together),

This is a bit of a superficial take. These guys often know each other and played together before, spend a relatively long time in close proximity to each other, practice their asses off, play a good amount of serious friendly’s (probably more serious than NBA preseason) and the tournament is excellent competition and pretty high stakes, especially for the top 10 teams. There’s probably 5-10 teams that would compete well with the bottom 5 teams in the NBA. FIBA is much higher level than typical Euroleague, as each team is kind of an all-star team.

Also, think abut how many NBA teams have major personnel shakeups and have about the same amount of time to gel before the season starts. I would compare FIBA to the first couple of weeks of the NBA season for the bottom 10-15 NBA teams, except with higher stakes. There’s no “let’s see how this 19yo rookie develops” or tanking in FIBA, the best players play and they play every game to win.

If Frank thrives in that environment, that’s a really good sign for him and supports picking up his option. If he sucks or gets benched….G-League here he comes.

Yeah as bad as he has been, it seems fine to pick up Frank’s option for the season and see how it plays out. His money isn’t that much and at best we’re a fringe playoff team this year. So why not see if he can prove anything at all. Who knows, maybe we resign him for the vet minimum and then he takes a leap to serviceable role player!

Knicks: yeah, I’d go ahead and pick up Frank’s option and move him to the wing. He just doesn’t seem to have the mindset for a PG. If he struggles in camp and can’t get good minutes, send him to D League and tell him to shoot, shoot, shoot. The rebounding is a concern, but he just needs to be coached and prodded to collapse in a bit when the opposing team shoots.

Mets: so fun to watch now. BVW is an idiot, but maybe he’s a good luck charm, too? The young core is fun, and not having to watch Cano’s lazy ass in the field and not running out ground balls is a joy. Sadly, Jared Kelenic got promoted again (to AA now), and is off to a good start there. Wow does that trade suck.

Sadly, Jared Kelenic got promoted again (to AA now), and is off to a good start there. Wow does that trade suck.

The opportunity cost is the worst part about that trade. BVW could have gotten some useful things for that Kelenic/Dunn package. Kelenic is a top 10 prospect and just screams future All-Star.

BVW did make two good moves: the JD Davis trade was legit genius, as he was picked up for Ross Adolph (not a prospect), Scott Manea (not a prospect) and Luis Santana, a fringy prospect who is still young but who has had a disappointing season. Davis, obviously can mash like nobody’s business and has already been a key player for the Mets.

The other great move he made was the third round pick of Matthew Allan and the gaming of the slot system to sign him. That was straight up stealing a first round pick.

Frank needs to spend some time with a motivational speaker or something. Maybe train in the desert with Rocky like in Creed 2.
Shump was never passive the way Frank is, and as much I’ve hoped for the best with him, unless this changes, he’s going to continue to be garbage offensively and on the boards.

I think Cano is poised to join a list of Mets greats that already includes David Wright, Yoenis Cespedes, and Johan Santana.

Guys who had big money deals that let the Wilpons claim an inflated payroll total but whose salaries were mostly covered by insurance.

My tin foil hat Mets fan friend is convinced the Wilpons broke Cespedes’ ankles (for the insurance coverage)

I mean really, the guy stepped in a hole and broke both his ankles??

I don’t know much about the Mets’ FO beyond that the Cano deal seemed stupid from the start. Beyond that, it does seem like they’re actually in a good position going forward. Calloway seems to have turned it around and the team is as fun to watch right now as any team in the league. Last night’s game was a blast to attend, my first this year and I’m thinking of going back for more. Maybe they deserve a little wiggle room, especially the manager.

PRIDE’A YONKERS BABY!

Frank can be the worst offensive player in basketball again next year and it would still make sense to pick up his option.

These Frank arguments are like phases of the moon cycle. Since we’re all restrating our opinions, I’ll restate mine:

He’s been shit, but he has one elite skill (pnr defense), so we should probably just wait til he’s 22 before we kick him to the curb.

some juicy b-ball discussions going on…looking forward to the world championships next week…plus, the start of college football…

sports interest wise, the summer months can drag a bit…

good to see the amazings hanging in there…they got some really nice young players on the roster…

as a yanks fan, the thing that’s been on my mind a bunch the last month or so is what to do with miguel andujar…no way you move gio out of the third base position…even if he wasn’t hitting so well, that glove work of his is sexy…

not sure though exactly what’s going on with gio’s contract…i know he’s on a one year deal, not sure what “rights” the yanks may have to sign him for next year…

maybe miguel can find a way in at first base…although to be honest – they should probably just park lemahieu there…

i’m not so sure they should hang on to andujar or frazier…they’re both ready for the bigs, but, are getting squeezed out of the lineup…

I guess I find myself in the bland middle on Frank. I think he’s a valuable defender, but the guy simply has to shoot much better to be a rotation guy.

I don’t worry about the rebounding as long as other guys can handle that aspect while he’s out on the perimeter checking shooters. If he can defend well, switch on nearly everyone, AND make shots, he’s valuable and worth keeping.

If we’re serious about positionless basketball then improved Frank is one of our main future guys.

I think he’s going to improve enough to be a rotation player in a year or two, but I still predict he will be traded to Orlando.

What worries me most about Frank is not his offense or his rebounds or his dribble but…his desire and his will to play for the Knicks and stay in the nba.
Same worries that i have about the Knicks this season:
Do we REALLY want to WIN ? Or are we going to tank/suck once more incognito ?

Two way players win chips.

Great two way players are Ultra Rare.
Great Defenders are Rare.
Great Offensive players are more common.

Rare is Good.
🙂

Guards + wings who are great on D can be neutralized much easier than great offensive players. Check out this article about Kawhi from 2016. It’s all about how the Spurs defensive rating was worse with Kawhi on the floor. Basically whoever Kawhi was covering would park themselves in the corner and never touch the ball, allowing the Spurs opponent to essentially play 4v4 against weaker defenders.

Frank is nowhere close to Kawhi’s defensive skill level. But if he ever got there it still may not help much unless the Knicks had a lineup full of plus defenders to negate the freeze out strategy. Which will never happen with this front office.

I think it is reasonable to look at Frank’s FIBA output, but you probably have to put some caveats on it. Warm up stage is a bit of a mixed bag given teams are working out rotations etc. My only concern is that France have a relatively soft group stage (Dominican Republic Jordan and Germany) so any decent output could be followed with “but he was only playing X team”. That being said, the expectation would be he lights up lesser teams. If he can’t be productive against the lower seeds in decent minutes, that is somewhat a red flag.

As for the FO’s off season, I don’t see how you can give it higher than a C. Drop some or all of Bullock, Ellington, Portis, and Gibson and you give it a B. Maybe B+ because of the crafty contracts.

But we did sign all those guys, for reasons hard to understand.

as a yanks fan, the thing that’s been on my mind a bunch the last month or so is what to do with miguel andujar…

They really missed the boat when they could have sold high on him this summer. I was dying for them to move him for a starter. Even healthy, he’s too bad to play 3B and his BABIP last year was so high it suggested he’d level off even if he didn’t get hurt.

Instead of whining about his boxscore stats and defending our early projections about his potential, we should begging God to give him a solid 3 point shot

Good news: my prayers have been answered and Frank is now a 40% 3PT shooter

Bad news: this left him with a career .477 TS%

We can keep pretending that Frank is one good 3PT shot away from being a competent offensive player, or we can acknowledge that he is a complete offensive mess who likely lacks the talent to stay on an NBA floor.

Even if we use the example of pretend, 40% 3PT shooter Frank, his defense has to be historically good to justify playing him in an era where the league average TS% is better than Kobe Bryant’s career TS%. I think he’s a good defender for sure, but the evidence suggests his impact is rather limited. The best defenders the NBA generate turnovers and end possessions. Yes, there’s more to defense than those things. No, there’s no such thing as a guy who doesn’t do them but yet is still worth playing despite a .477 TS% if we arbitrarily decide to make him Kyle Korver from 3 overnight.

I can respect the opinion of the folks who acknowledge there’s nothing here but still enjoy rooting for the kid for various reasons. Hell, I’m kind of in that category myself. For the life of me, I have no idea what the people who think there’s anything more to Frank than that are seeing, or at least pretending to see.

I guess it’s just a fan thing, though. I’m sure on sunsblogger.net there are people making 3,000 word posts about how Dragan Bender really just needs to be used correctly and has just dealt with too much coaching turnover and will soon be scooped up by the Spurs and lead them to a championship and blah blah blah. Celtics fans were making Guerschon Yabusele the centerpiece of fake Anthony Davis trades right up until the day he was unceremoniously waived.

If Frank shot 33% on threes, never shot twos and never got foul shots, wouldn’t he have a 0.666 true shooting percentage?

If Frank shot 33% on threes, never shot twos and never got foul shots, wouldn’t he have a 0.666 true shooting percentage?

It’s August, folks.

But no, it would be 50%. Still really bad!

I think the shine on Frank as a draft pick wore off a long time ago. And honestly, worrying about that is a dumb reason not to send someone down to the G-League. I know its perceived as a demotion but it really shouldn’t be for some players. We should have done that for a lot of his rookie year and he would probably be much further along than he is now.

PLAYER X:
Career FT% = 57%
Career 2FG% = 42%
Career 3FG% = 39%
Career DRB% = 9.4%
Career ORB% = 2.3%
Career FTR – .213
Career USG = 11.4%
Career STL% = 1.6%
Career TS% = 50%

Am I right that JK47, Jowles, Farfa, Noble would never want this guy on their team?
His name: Bruce Bowen. Every year except the last two when he was 35-36yo the team was better when he was on the court. Sound familiar?

Frank’s a better passer, FT shooter, and 2FG jump shooter than Bowen ever was. Bowen struggled in his first couple of years in the NBA in his mid-20’s. Did Spurs give up on him? No.

The difference between the two camps here is one would never pick up Frank’s option and would be happy to trade him for a 2nd round pick where the other would pick up his option and hope he figures things out. The latter camp is not so arrogant as the former camp in projecting Frank’s future. Rather, our view is that the potential benefit of an already historically plus player – despite atrocious offense – improving on that end outweighs the minimal opportunity cost of 6m and a roster spot.

There is something deeply admirable about our communal commitment to posting 10,000 words about Frank every single summer day.

For the record, I don’t think he is going to make it. I still hope he does. I’d rather watch him be terrible on offense than watch Knox be terrible at everything but realistically neither have any hope of being part of the Knicks team I hope to see in the next five years.

I’m not sure what I’m supposed to take away from the Bowen comparison. Bowen’s sticking in the league was certainly impressive and unlikely. What bearing does that have on Frank? Their backgrounds aren’t similar at all. Bowen played four years of D-1 ball, and showed at least a little statistical intrigue while doing so. I wouldn’t have drafted him, and no one did, but the teams that rolled the dice on him (as a UDFA, not lottery pick, for the record) had an idea of what they were getting and he turned into the 90th or so percentile outcome of that idea. That’s great.

Now tell me what it means for the guy who can’t dribble.

I’m not sure what I’m supposed to take away from the Bowen comparison.

Serious? You’ve repeatedly stated even if Frank shot 3’s at 40% he’d be a terrible player because he’d still be terrible at everything else. I give you a guy who shot 3’s at 39% and was a lousy passer, lousy rebounder, lousy free throw shooter, 50% TS, tepid FTR, shot 57% at the rim, anemic STL% and BLK%. Spurs played him because he was still a net positive.

BTW Bowen averaged 28% from 3 in 4 years of college.

Serious? You’ve repeatedly stated even if Frank shot 3’s at 40% he’d be a terrible player because he’d still be terrible at everything else. I give you a guy who shot 3’s at 39% and was a lousy passer, lousy rebounder, lousy free throw shooter, 50% TS, tepid FTR, shot 57% at the rim, anemic STL% and BLK%. Spurs played him because he was still a net positive.

BTW Bowen averaged 28% from 3 in 4 years of college.

Bro, in his day, the league shot like .510 TS% consistently. Now it’s .560 and Ntilikina is a FAR worse shooter than Bowen was for the majority of his career. And Bowen was largely a shit player on offense.

Bro, in his day, the league shot like .510 TS% consistently. Now it’s .560

I doubt it’s that great a jump but it has increased largely due to rise in Pace. Teams are pushing the ball more and scoring more in transition so you’d expect a rise in eFG%. Doesn’t seem particularly relevant to the discussion we’re having.

And Bowen was largely a shit player on offense.

That’s the gist of the matter. He was terrible on offense but still a net plus to the team. I doubt it’s a fluke that every team Frank’s ever played on he’s been a plus player. If Frank’s already a plus player, imagine if he did improve on offense…just like Bowen improved from an atrocious 28% 3FG% at Frank’s age to 39%. Frank’s already a better passer, free throw shooter and jump shooter in general. Bowen was a spot-up shooter, terrible off the dribble.

Ntilikina is a FAR worse shooter than Bowen was for the majority of his career.

You’re not adjusting for age. Here’s Bowen’s 2FG% starting at age 26: 42%, 28, 33, 39, 39. His 3FG%: 33, 26, 46, 33, 37.

I doubt it’s that great a jump but it has increased largely due to rise in Pace. Teams are pushing the ball more and scoring more in transition so you’d expect a rise in eFG%. Doesn’t seem particularly relevant to the discussion we’re having.

What it means is Bowen was able to get his TS% close to, or higher than, the league average regularly.

What’s the grand plan to get Frank to the current league average?

Bruce Bowen’s 3 best years by BPM:

1. 2005-2006, league average TS% was 53.6, Bowen’s was 54%
2. 2002-2003, league average TS% was 51.9%, Bowen’s was 56.3%
3. 2004-2005, league average TS% was 52.9%, Bowen’s was 52.1%

Yeah, sorry man, I ain’t seeing Frank Ntilikina here.

bron is buggin on ntilikoolaid

Bruce Bowen’s 3 best years by BPM:

1. 2005-2006, league average TS% was 53.6, Bowen’s was 54%
2. 2002-2003, league average TS% was 51.9%, Bowen’s was 56.3%
3. 2004-2005, league average TS% was 52.9%, Bowen’s was 52.1%

Yeah, sorry man, I ain’t seeing Frank Ntilikina here.

Making bad analogies is a big part of what we do here. BB was 31 for the earliest season you mentioned.

If you took BB through his 29 year old season he sucked really hard on the offensive end:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Bruce+Bowen&player_id1_select=Bruce+Bowen&player_id1=bowenbr01&y1=2001&player_id2_hint=Frank+Ntilikina&player_id2_select=Frank+Ntilikina&player_id2=ntilila01&idx=players

Interestingly enough…. BB got MARKEDLY better offensively AFTER 5300 minutes in the NBA. Imagine that!!!

Of course this is apropos about nothing and Frank hasn’t shown a whisp offensively, but maybe he could get til at least he graduates from college before he gets pitched into the trash heap? I think that is what the Frank-o-philes want…. its not like playing him hurts their Playoff seeding….

And just for the record…. the GIANT’s God awful bust #6 pick went 9-11 last night playing the entire first half (sans one series) on the road in the 3rd exhibition game . Just for the record his stat line looks something like:

25/30 with a 83.3% completion rate for 369 yds 2/0 TD/INT and a 140.1 QBR

The coach had the best line of the night:

All this made Shurmur quite frisky when talking about the player the Giants selected with the No. 6-overall pick.

“Like I said, you can ask me all you want about why I like him,’’ Shurmur said. “I think it’s time to start asking the people that didn’t like him what they think, quite frankly.’’

And just for the record…. the GIANT’s God awful bust #6 pick went 9-11 last night playing the entire first half (sans one series) on the road in the 3rd exhibition game . Just for the record his stat line looks something like:

25/30 with a 83.3% completion rate for 369 yds 2/0 TD/INT and a 140.1 QBR

I will admit, I am aroused. Foolish consistency is not my hobgoblin.

The unselfish play and defense are reasons we hope Frank succeeds, they are not good reasons for believing he’ll succeed.

If you think Frank needs more time to develop, let someone else put in the effort and let’s sign him back when he’s actually good. For now he’s a waste of a roster spot.

The unselfish play and defense are reasons we hope Frank succeeds, they are not good reasons for believing he’ll succeed.

Yes, exactly. The people who believe frank will succeed are smoking something. Most “Frankophiles” simply hope he will and lament all the ways we’ve screwed up his development. We’re also not swayed by the circular arguments. For example:

Point: Frank is too young and undeveloped to be judged right now

Counterpoint: HIS BPM AND TS% IS BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Yeah, we get it, he’s shit. Also, if you put a Class A baseball player in the major leagues, he will strike out a shit ton. Pointing to those strikeouts doesn’t necessarily mean he can never be good, it could mean it was a stupid idea to think he could go straight to the big league. The next step in that example isn’t “throw the player away”, it’s “alter the development plan”. Frankophiles are largely irate bc the Knicks are thinking the former instead of the latter, and that’s dumb.

For now he’s a waste of a roster spot.

Why, because we really need to make room for another Wayne Ellington?

Why, because we really need to make room for another Wayne Ellington?

I’d rather take a player who might contribute within the next 3 years. So, yes.

If Frank turns into a player, it doesn’t appear to be soon. While we’re waiting for him to break out we’re giving up the opportunity to add value now.

Take Frank when there’s a reasonable chance he can contribute to the team. If he’s a project, let the project get closer to completion. No one is rushing out to sign a player to a 3 year contract when he won’t contribute over the next 3 years.

To apply that to Frank, his ideal “role” would be to limit or shut down the opposing team’s best playmaker/scorer at guard.

Don’t insult Frank or your membership to the exclusive Frankie Booster Club will be revoked. He’s able to guard SFs and some PFs. If you look at the FIBA video, he’s much stronger. He could switch 1 to 5 positions.

When you are an elite defender you can have immense value with the right team construction.

Roberson is an excellent modern day example (versus Bowen) of a guy who had a huge plus impact even while shooting 25% from 3 and 46% FT%. He did make up for it to a degree by being efficient on 2FG%. But even in years when he posted about a 51 TS he still was a huge net plus by raw on/off.

I’d rather take a player who might contribute within the next 3 years. So, yes.

It’s mind-boggling to me that anyone thinks Ellington should get minutes over Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank. But I’d have no problem if team picked up Frank’s option and sent him to G league for 3 months and gave all the SG minutes to Dot, RJ, and Zo.

The problem with Frank is that he doesn’t even have the building blocks of decent offensive play. He can’t dribble, can’t finish around the basket, doesn’t have burst or quick-twitch athleticism, isn’t a great leaper. It would be one thing if he had the terrible box score stats but you could see he had ball skills and athletic ability. But he doesn’t.

He’s good at getting skinny through screens and he can disrupt passing lanes and he can pass a little. That is it. That is the sum total of his skill set.

The other things he can’t do, you’re not going to learn them at age 22 or whatever. Guards that can’t dribble don’t have a lot of value, and neither do forwards who can’t rebound. I don’t believe “handle” is a skill you can drastically improve on. It’s an innate ability. You can tighten it up a little, but that dude is never going to be an adequate ball handler. Pretty much any random NCAA point guard has obviously better handle.

I mean, good luck to the kid but he is facing some very long odds.

Mudiay made a massive statistical improvement from his first 2 years in the league and he STILL is a terrible player not worthy of a rotation spot on anything but a terrible team at his current level. Maybe he improves more and is an asset for Utah, maybe not. That’s the kind of situation Frank needs. He needs to improve from “terrible” to “terribly mediocre” and then hook up with a playoff team who can afford to waste a 15th roster spot to develop him. In Utah, they wouldn’t have to worry about losing 60 games if he sucks.

I’d way rather watch Ellington give me 20 solid, competent minutes while developing guys like Trier, Dotson, Iggy, RJ, Wilks, DSj,…you know, guys that haven’t proven that they suck yet…

Hezonja, Mudiay, Okafor and Bender may all become stars in 5 years. Would that make their drafting teams stupid for cutting bait?

Okafor’s got major personality and work ethic issues. Don’t know enough about Bender to comment. Hezonja and Mudiay were bad on BOTH offense and defense. Frank has shown himself to be an excellent defender. BTW GSW almost regretted not picking up Looney’s 4th year option when he made steady improvement in Years 3 and 4. Somehow they managed to re-sign him dirt cheap.

In terms of shooting, there’s a bit of a precedent for these types of players to start slow (Bowen, Artest, Dray who were all older in their first NBA years). Frank’s shooting motion appears to be OK. He had the #1 rating in pull-up jumpers in a FIBA tournament. He’s had long stretches where he’s shot well from 3. No reason to write him off at this stage in terms of shooting. And he’s shot 57% at the rim despite being scared to death to drive.

Having a guy who’s able to guard the best wing on the opposing team or disrupt the opposing 1 guard is a valuable commodity. Few here appear to appreciate that. They’re the same people who gushed over Calderon’s TS% when we acquired him in that trade failing to appreciate how bad he was on defense. Focus on impact and have a bit of patience. The cost is negligible, potential benefit much greater.

I’d way rather watch Ellington give me 20 solid, competent minutes while developing guys like Trier, Dotson, Iggy, RJ, Wilks, DSj,…you know, guys that haven’t proven that they suck yet…

Such a moronic take. You know the best way to “develop” those guys? You play them. Watching Ellington play won’t improve their games one iota. And it won’t motivate them to “earn” their minutes. Dotson and Trier are 23-24yo in contract years. Define their roles and play them.

You still don’t appreciate how to evaluate players who are either terrible on defense or excellent on defense…players at the extreme. If you did, you wouldn’t have gone on a diatribe about Mudiay.
Mudiay’s been a large minus player who’s shown nothing on offense and is terrible on defense. Frank’s been a net plus player who’s excelled on defense.

Frank doesn’t just suck compared to NBA players, he sucks compared to his peers, the guys who were in his same draft class.

And I take great exception with the idea that you can hide a bad offensive player easier than you can hide a bad defender. One-way defensive players have gone the way of the dodo bird in the NBA. You ain’t playing in this league with a .400 eFG%, sorry fam.

Somebody say Yonkers?

I can respect the opinion of the folks who acknowledge there’s nothing here but still enjoy rooting for the kid for various reasons.

<– I think this is the fairest take on Frank. I would love for him to consistently give us the things we've all been longing for (great D, unselfish play, good 3-ball). But it's fair to ask if he'd been drafted if we had Perry/Mills and if the team (Phil) had actually committed to a full tank job leading up to the '17 Draft.

In other news, the Yankees are here in LA to play the Dodgers for a wknd set. Dodgers have been a beast at home, and with their starting pitching, it's pretty unreasonable to think the Yankees can sweep. But boy would that put a huge smile on my face and give me serious bragging rights at work next week. I would get a broom for my office and sweep all the Dodger fans out whenever they'd walk in. Which is everybody on campus… lol.

However, he has the talent potential and defensive instincts to be one the best defensive wings in this era.

Funny how nobody in a decision-making capacity for an NBA franchise is willing to part with a singly 2nd round pick for a chance at an all-time great defender. Maybe every single one of them, even Morey, Ujiri, Buford, Ainge, et. al. is just not as smart as you.

In terms of shooting, there’s a bit of a precedent for these types of players to start slow (Bowen, Artest, Dray who were all older in their first NBA years).

Ron Artest was a dominant college player. So was Draymond. Looney averaged 15 and 12 per 40 at a high efficiency as a college freshman and has posted positive BPM, VORP and WS48 every year. Bowen went undrafted and didn’t figure it out until he was 10 years older than Frank.

Frank accomplished absolutely nothing at Strasbourg, nothing. Frank has shown nothing in the NBA, nothing. He would have not been drafted at all if he was in the NCAA. Please stop making ridiculous comparisons.

JK47, my former supervisor shirks away from his Dodger fandom bc he claims to have been let down too many times. But I won’t let him get away with it – he’s a troll who likes to text me #lolKnicks articles, and I KNOW he’ll have something smart to say if the Dodgers take this series. He better pray the Yankees don’t sweep their asses.

d a m n

Also fuck Chase Utley.

Yeah, he’s in the pantheon of the most hated Mets opponents ever…right up there with guys like Clemens and Chipper.

But what if he played for Duke? He could have won the superlative “most likely to win ROY” like every other Duke bust over the last five years.

lol, how true

Speaking of Duke busts: would Christian Laettner fared a lot better if he played in today’s NBA vs the early 90s?

One would think so. But he was put on the Dream Team over Shaq, so there’s that…

One-way defensive players have gone the way of the dodo bird in the NBA.

There’s a good case to be made that this year’s All-Defensive First Team would be a top-3 offense. Same with the second team.

Giannis, George, Bledsoe, Smart (meh), Gobert

Jrue, Klay, Kawhi, Draymond (meh), Embiid

@238 that’s really the point here. Developing him is (rightfully) so low on the priority list that it doesn’t even merit serious conversation. Unless and until he comes up big in FIBA and preseason, he shouldn’t even be talked about.

The comparison to Dray, Bowen, and Artest was related to shooting. Frank shot 41% from 3 and 47% from 2 at Strasbourg. Aren’t you one of the people who keeps telling us how some European league is the 2nd strongest in the world after the NBA? And didn’t you earlier appeal to authority? OK, why were so many NBA organizations ready to draft Frank 8-10? And BTW no contender would trade for a raw Frank at this time so wondering why Morey isn’t interested in Frank is, well, MO#$%IC.

Frank has shown nothing in the NBA, nothing.

Finishing 1st (or 2nd) on PnR defense next to CP3 and Oladipo is nothing? Serious? In a PnR league? Where everything starts with the high PnR? Again this just illustrates your inability to properly evaluate the potential of certain types of players. Procedure: Go to BRef or WP, look at Calderon’s TS%, praise the trade. Procedure: Go to Bref, look at Frank’s TS%, tag him a bust.

Regarding the “moronic take”, that had really nothing to do with Frank and I was being charitable there. How anyone in his right mind could justify playing Ellington over Trier/Dot/Zo/RJ at this stage is beyond me. I get that FO and Fiz might pursue wins at cost of development to try to save their jobs. I don’t get how any sane fan could justify it unless they’re hankering for a marginal win.

Making bad analogies is a big part of what we do here. BB was 31 for the earliest season you mentioned.

If you took BB through his 29 year old season he sucked really hard on the offensive end

1) Ntilikina would have to imrove a lot over the next few years just to suck as badly as Bruce Bowen did through his 29 year old season.

2) Bowen played for 4 different teams before his 29 year old season because it is impossible to invest NBA dollars into a ten-year player development plan. Frank’s age is both a blessing and a curse in this regard. He has time to improve, but Bowen, entering the league at 25, was cheap, and Frank, entering at 19, is going to be really, really expensive. It would be terrible management to invest that in Ntilikina in the hopes he develops into Bruce Bowen(!)

3) Bowen suddenly turned good at 29, when he played on a team with Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Tony Parker, Manu Ginolbi, and Greg Popovich. The Knicks simply don’t have those kinds of people on their team and probably never will. Those five people made a lot of players look really good, not just Bowen. Malik Rose’s first 8 years in the league (all with SA): .130 ws/48, 4.0 VORP; Malik Rose’s next 5 years (all with NY): -0.003 ws/48, -2 VORP. Hmm…

if you hold onto Frank through next year in the hopes of signing him cheaply, what terms make it worthwhile?

If we pick up Frank’s option this year he’s going to be “expensive” but does that really matter when we’re not competing for a championship and it would be the final year of his contract anyways?

no

And going forward after this year, couldn’t we theoretically keep him for cheap?

yes, but why

Is any team out there going to sign him for money equivalent to what he is making now?

no

Isn’t it possible that he is a bad deal but could be a bargain after this season on a new, cheap contract especially if he does improve?

Marcus Smart got a $52M deal

i n t r i g u e

I mean, really, isn’t it time to send in the men with the white coats?

Compared to another 250 comments thread on Frank’s projections maybe Trump is the sane one.

More to the point on the off-topic, our prime minister’s wife just tried to burst into the cockpit on their flight to the Ukraine because the captain didn’t bless her in his announcement, then at the greeting ceremony tossed away a piece of bread considered holy to the Ukrainians because it’s a symbol of surviving a horrible famine.
So please, when the men with the white coats finish up with Donald can they come after his good friend Bibi and his wife?

If by now people don’t see a craven, lawless, TV-junkie narcissist in the early stages of dementia, they themselves need to see a neurologist.

Are we talking about Donald Trump, Joe Biden or both here?

Are we talking about Donald Trump, Joe Biden or both here?

Which one of those men currently has the authority to order nuclear strikes?

Are we talking about Donald Trump, Joe Biden or both here?

Your logical fallacy is:

(opens envelope)

False equivalence

Which one of those men currently has the authority to order nuclear strikes?

The real problem isn’t which one has the authority but that either one of them could come 2021 and there’s no realistic alternative.

Ntilakilla is the Proud Boys of Knickerblogger

Ntilakilla is the Proud Boys of Knickerblogger

JK47, take note here. ‘

THIS is what a false equivalency looks like.

The Honorable Cock Jowles
August 23, 2019 at 12:55 pm
Ok I promised myself I wouldn’t bring up politics on this site, but Trump’s tweets about China today are truly batshit crazy (and tanking the markets)

I’m not going to touch it. If by now people don’t see a craven, lawless, TV-junkie narcissist in the early stages of dementia, they themselves need to see a neurologist.

PREACH!

The real problem isn’t which one has the authority but that either one of them could come 2021 and there’s no realistic alternative.

Bernie Sanders though, now there’s a guy who is not a doddering old man

Did I get lost and wind up on Twitter again?

hoops quote of the day from Jalen Rose:

Rose likes the Knicks’ depth at each position and the warrior spirit of some of those signed — specifically Marcus Morris and Bobby Portis, whom Rose called candidates for his “All-Dark Alley Team.”

Frank Ntilikina

Pro:

Defends well POA until switched

Moves the ball

Looks pretty unless he has frosted tips

Cons:

Has no discernible basketball skill related to putting the ball in the hoop

If we renounce him Ras will probably change his nickname and I will get confused as to why KB has become again a (sometimes lousy) political arena

FWIW, I watched some highlights of his with Strasbourg. He looked incredibly slow driving the ball as a guard. Add in the fact that he rarely drove for Strasbourg or even the U18 tournament despite being one of the older players. Despite winning MVP, he mostly stood at the top of the key and passed or shot threes from there. He rarely drove the ball. I never seriously considered him a pg prospect.

All that said, I still thought he’d be a decent 3 and D wing.

Howard is hard to pass up. If for no other reason, the Lakers obviously want Howard’s “star power” even with bad play, it’s LA.

I think a Lebron/AD at the 4/5 would dominate the NBA, scrub wings and guards be damned. I think that duo might close games out there.

There was a great aspect of the story where Howard apparently had to meet with three members of the team who objected to the idea of the Lakers signing Howard. Those three Lakers? Davis, Rondo and McGee. Yes, Javale fucking McGee had to be convinced by Dwight Howard that Howard was up to the task. High-larious.

Javale fucking McGee

that’s Javale “Two-Time Fucking NBA Fucking Champ” McGee to you, Mr. Cronin

I mean if your best possible argument is “if we give it 10 years we might get Bruce Bowen,” you’re kinda giving away the game right?

For the record, I’m pretty neutral on picking up Frank’s option. I probably lean slightly towards declining it, just because roster spots are legitimate opportunity costs and there are UDFAs, etc. with a better chance to be NBA rotation players than Frank Ntilikina. Overwhelming likelihood is that it’s a consequence free decision regardless, though.

Fuck

I mean if your best possible argument is “if we give it 10 years we might get Bruce Bowen,” you’re kinda giving away the game right?

No, that’s not the takeaway. Here they are: (1) Bowen could hit 3’s and defend and do nothing else and still be a valuable piece on a contender (2) Bowen, Artest, Dray were poor outside shooters in their early years (when they were older than Frank) and then improved to level they needed to get to(3) Bowen (and Roberson) were still plus players even in years when they had about a 510 TS.

You have to look at impact for certain types of players. Had many here realized Calderon was hopeless on defense, they wouldn’t have been fooled by his TS% when we acquired him. Frank, despite being putrid on offense except for his passing, has been a plus player every team he’s ever been on. I doubt that’s just noise. And having a guy who’s able to make life difficult for opposing 1’s or the opponent’s best wing scorer has greater value to a contending team than I think many are according here imo.

The key differences between me and others is:
(1) I value Frank’s potential contribution on defense on a future contender higher than most of you
(2) I think his shooting %’s rate to improve enough (maybe a lot) given his shooting motion

I acknowledge he’s got some key skills deficits which limit his ceiling: his lack of burst and handle. But I don’t think those will stand in the way of him being an impact player on a contender so long as his shooting percentages improve and he’s more aggressive driving to rim. Plenty of players who didn’t have burst could get to the rim. I think it’s part skill but also part mental in Frank’s case.

Pick up his option. Put Payton, Frank, and Mitch are on the court together and let Frank guard the opposing 1. Remember that rookie starting lineup which had a positive net rating and Fiz abandoned and never played again?

Jose Calderon was 33 when he came here and was past his prime. Yes, he sucked as a Knick. At his best he was a reasonably decent NBA player. At his best he shot the ball real well and dished out a shitload of assists, dude would regularly get 9+ assists per 36 in his good years. Playing in the last dying iteration of the triangle offense didn’t do him wonders, but neither did the fact that he was fucking old for a point guard.

I know it might not seem like it, but throwing the ball into the basket is actually kind of an important part of the game. This is why Jose Calderon played 23,000 minutes in the NBA and Frank Ntilikina is probably going to be suiting up for Limoges in the not so distant future.

Man, how about Paxton tonight? 11Ks, 1 run in 6 innings, no walks.
Just the game you need to break a 4-game slide.

No more Bruce Bowen comments. Seriously.

Bruce Bowen’s heyday in the NBA was almost 20 years ago. His last game in the NBA was 10 years ago. Let’s pick a random year from Bruce Bowen’s prime: let’s say 2003-2004, one of his better years. The league average TS% that year was .516. Bruce Bowen was playable with his .512 TS% that year because it was pretty much league average. League average TS% last year was .560, do you think Frank is ever getting anywhere near sniffing distance of that?

But the point is, that was 15 years ago. The game that Bruce Bowen was playing no longer exists. As I said before, league average TS% last year was .560, and defensive strategies have changed a lot as we’re in the era of positionless basketball and teams that look to do lots of switching on defense. Bruce Bowen type players are practically extinct. There’s what, like one left? Andre Roberson? Who is pretty much like Michael Jordan offensively compared to Frank. Roberson has managed a .500 eFG% or better, usually far better, because he can actually dunk the ball 50-60 times a year and make an occasional layup or bunny. Frank is terrified of the ball so he has 8 dunks in 2600 minutes.

You’re making terrible arguments here.

Now take your head out of the box score stats and start thinking BBall. Start focusing on how certain players with certain skills might impact the game.

And what happens on the other end, when the other team has five defenders to guard your four offensive players plus the guy who is terrified of the basketball? That doesn’t show up in the boxscore either.

I really kind of can’t believe this discussion is a thing, but then again I’ve had people on this blog tell me that I’m unqualified to talk about basketball because I just can’t see the value Andrea Bargnani brings to an NBA team. Yes, that actually happened. So I’m used to this.

Bruce Bowen’s heyday in the NBA was almost 20 years ago. His last game in the NBA was 10 years ago. Let’s pick a random year from Bruce Bowen’s prime: let’s say 2003-2004, one of his better years. The league average TS% that year was .516. Bruce Bowen was playable with his .512 TS% that year because it was pretty much league average. League average TS% last year was .560, do you think Frank is ever getting anywhere near sniffing distance of that?

After playing 2600 NBA minutes at the age of 28 BB shot at an amazing .377 TS% over 42 games. Im guessing that was below league average, too.

Did you think BB was going to shoot “league average” soon after that??? And bag a gaggle of ringzzz?

Some turrble arguments are being made here!!!

A semi-relevant question for Z-Man with respect to NYS testing data ( scores are in)
Do you evaluate individual teacher performance with the equivalent of WAR(PAR=Proficient over Replacement)? I would imagine that you could use HEDI scores to create a replacement mean. Do you compare teachers within a grade band at your school to others in your school in that grade, in your district, the City, and/or the state? Just curious.
Apologies to other KBers, but I’ve always been an education data freak and do not have access to others with any level of sophistication in this area.
( gutsy move bring Diaz in. If he’s back on track that is good news)

A semi-relevant question for Z-Man with respect to NYS testing data ( scores are in)
Do you evaluate individual teacher performance with the equivalent of WAR(PAR=Proficient over Replacement)? I would imagine that you could use HEDI scores to create a replacement mean. Do you compare teachers within a grade band at your school to others in your school in that grade, in your district, the City, and/or the state? Just curious.
Apologies to other KBers, but I’ve always been an education data freak and do not have access to others with any level of sophistication in this area.

I actually do an in-house analysis where for each teacher of ELA and math I compare a) each of their student’s test score gain/loss compared to last year’s and b) the grade each student received in the teacher’s class vs, their test score.

(b) is important because if both the course and the test are aligned to the same set of standards, there should be some correlation. When I notice a lack of correlation, I bring it up with individual teachers as necessary.

I don’t put a lot of stock in citywide or statewide comparisons. My school is sort of a niche school that has very few “peer” schools, and I look at those schools and make some superficial comparisons.

I’m also not a big believer in the HEDI system as it currently exists to the degree that it incorporates test scores, as the MoSL component is unconscionably stupid and meaningless. It tends to bump teachers I would rate “developing” into “effective” and makes it harder for me to pressure them to improve. The MoTP component, however, is based on direct observation and is therefore very valuable and telling.

How did Usa lost by Australia ?
The stats were all in favor of USA….
There has to be a mistake….

How did Usa lost by Australia ?

I’m not sure that a team starting Donovan Mitchell, Harrison Barnes, Myles Turner, Khris Middleton and Marcus Smart would make the playoffs in the NBA.

It actually does happen sometimes

That’s my concern with the Bowen example, though, honestly, it’s such an outlier that it’s practically useless as an example. Yes, there once was a guy who wasn’t good enough to play more than a single NBA minute (and that’s literally all he played in his first NBA season, a single minute) by the time he turned 26 and who reinvented his game and became relevant (and thus a good player) at the age of 28. But if you’re using that as an actual comparison example for any other NBA player, what’s the point? Frank could suck for the next FOUR seasons and the Bowen example, if relevant, could still be relevant, since, hey, yeah, Frank might have sucked for six seasons, but Bowen wasn’t even good enough to be in the NBA during those years, so who knows? Like Kevin Garnett said, anything is possible! If anything is possible, though, then what’s the point? “He’s sucked for six years, but hey, Bruce Bowen turned his career around at 28, so you can’t rule out that happening to Frank/Player X/Player X/Player Z!” Yeah, I guess you can’t literally rule it out as a possibility, but it isn’t much of a debate point to essentially shrug your shoulders and say, “Hey, there was one guy who did it, so therefore you can’t discount it from happening!”

Then a miracle happened….. he markedly improved on the offensive end. It actually does happen sometimes….

Great, well you have demolished that straw man, and refuted the argument I never tried to make, which is apparently “players can never improve.”

Score another internet win for bobneptune. That straw man never had a chance, he’s laying in the alley with blood coming out of his ears.

Frank had another very good game. I didn’t see the minutes or shot attempts but was told he shot very well.

10 pts
3 rebs
2 assists
3 stls
1 blk

Ingles: No burst, dubious handle, no athleticism… not an NBA player 😉

I’m also not a big believer in the HEDI system as it currently exists to the degree that it incorporates test scores, as the MoSL component is unconscionably stupid and meaningless. It tends to bump teachers I would rate “developing” into “effective” and makes it harder for me to pressure them to improve. The MoTP component, however, is based on direct observation and is therefore very valuable and telling.

Finally, finally we get some expert-level analysis out of Z-man. After ten years of reading his posts, better late than never!

; )

Frank had another very good game. I didn’t see the minutes or shot attempts but was told he shot very well.

If Frank can play this well against New Zealand just imagine how great he’ll be in the NBL. Gonna be a superb glue guy for the 2021 Brisbane Bullets.

I think Frank’s gonna do just fine, both at the FIBA WC as well as this season. In fact, I think all 3 point guards (Payton and DSJr) are going to step up and create an embarassment of riches this season.

create an embarassment this season.

ftfy

Now this is a depressing turn of events. Here I was in a state of euphoria watching Frank execute a vicious crossover against New Zealand when I tab to KB and find Henry George’s comment. I have a foolproof heuristic: whenever Henry George or M Bunge agrees with me the probability of my being wrong rises to 90% (it was at 55% before). I just have to pray that M Bunge doesn’t check in to support Frank. You don’t want to know the probability when both HG and M Bunge agree. To give you an idea, it soars to a level even higher than that of Z-Man making another moronic comment on this thread. [Z-Man… I kid, you know this is all benign snark, right?]

I read in here about Frank’s handles and drives that they both suck and almost the same about RJBarrett.
Tbh i really like their handles and their drives despite the fact that they lack explosiveness and speed.
They may not be Kyries or Stephs but i see quality steady handling & dribbling and drives with pretty good rhythm & body control.

Bron, the most moronic thing at all is that we essentially agree. You’re just a bit late to the party and way over the top with illogically optimistic comparisons. I have said over and over again since draft time that Frank has the potential to be an impactful 3-and-D wing at some point (and now get ribbed sometimes for being on the optimistic side of the ledger!) but that he will never, ever be a PG in the NBA. The question is when, to what degree, and at what cost? The naysayers are correct in that he is so far removed from winning playability right now that there is no cause for anything but Hail Mary-level optimism about Frank in the short run. But as I have said, if he shows any growth in FIBA and preseason, keep him around. If he continues to suck (which he has done for the past) then let some other team have the pleasure of tying up cap space while waiting for him to become a rotation player.

Let’s talk about RJB’s floor. Nothing controversial about that.

this thread has come full circle, please end it now