Knicks Morning News (2017.01.25)

  • [ESPN] Wednesday’s Knicks News: Porzingis working to end shooting slump
    (Wednesday, January 25, 2017 5:10:20 AM)

    Wednesday’s Knicks News: Porzingis working to end shooting slump

  • [ESPN] Fantasy hoops: Should you trade injured bigs Porzingis, Embiid?
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 12:09:59 PM)

    Fantasy hoops: Should you trade injured bigs Porzingis, Embiid?

  • [ESPN] Curry, Warriors keep NBA merchandising edge
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 9:23:14 AM)

    Curry, Warriors keep NBA merchandising edge

  • [NYTimes] What’s Wrong With the Golden State Warriors? Warped Expectations
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 3:40:25 PM)

    When you’re absurdly good and then add Kevin Durant, the bar becomes unreasonably high even as the fundamental numbers stay about the same.

  • [NYTimes] Steve Kerr, All-Star Coach, Rips Players for ‘Mockery’ in Voting
    (Wednesday, January 25, 2017 1:37:28 AM)

    With players having a say in the starters for the game, nearly 300 names wound up on at least one ballot.

  • [NY Newsday] Willy Hernangomez energizing Knicks and earning more minutes
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 8:27:57 PM)

    DALLAS — Rookie center Willy Hernangomez is breathing down the necks of veterans Joakim Noah and Kyle O’Quinn, showing the Knicks he deserves to be in the regular rotation.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Kristaps Porzingis works with Jeff Hornacek on dwindling offense
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 6:51:52 PM)

    DALLAS — Kristaps Porzingis and Jeff Hornacek sat together under a basket and had a private film session. Hornacek’s laptop was open and he was showing Porzingis video of his shot, trying to help the Knicks’ second-year big man recapture his rhythm and form.

  • [NY Newsday] Knicks’ Kristaps Porzingis ranks seventh in NBA jersey sales
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 6:46:31 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis no longer is the rookie phenom/curiosity he was last season, but the young Knicks star continues to be a major attraction in the NBA merchandise market.

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis discovers what’s wrong with his shot
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 5:32:51 PM)

    DALLAS — Kristaps Porzingis has watched reams of video of his idol Dirk Nowitzki, borrowing from the German’s game along his European ride to the NBA. This time, however, Porzingis needed to watch tape of himself. Porzingis pored over the game film from Monday’s 109-103 Knicks victory in Indiana soon after the final buzzer. Something…

  • [NYPost] It’s time to bench Joakim Noah and unleash Knicks’ eye-opener
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 4:17:27 PM)

    DALLAS — Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek acts as if benching starting center Joakim Noah would trigger a tornado blowing the roof off the Garden in retaliation. Meanwhile, the Knicks have a tornado of a young center in their midst in Spanish rookie Willy Hernangomez — Kristaps Porzingis’ former teammate in Seville. It’s time to unleash…

  • [NYPost] Kristaps Porzingis’ decline gets more troubling with each game
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:00:01 AM)

    INDIANAPOLIS — As the profile of rookie center Willy Hernangomez rises, his best friend on the team, Kristaps Porzingis, is mired in a curious rut — and it’s not just due to his Achilles tendon injury. Entering December, the 7-foot-3 second-year phenom seemed to have a legitimate shot at making the All-Star Game as a reserve. Now…

  • [NYDN] Time for Knicks to get smart, deal Carmelo or Rose and get young
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 8:17:27 PM)

    Maybe Carmelo Anthony heard LeBron James sounding the alarm from New Orleans late Monday.

  • [NYDN] Porzingis hoping Jeff Hornacek has the cure to his shooting slump
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 6:40:24 PM)

    A day after one of the worst games in his brief career, Kristaps Porzingis huddled with Jeff Hornacek to discuss the misfiring jumper.

  • [NYDN] SEE IT: Here are the worst free throw attempts of all time
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 9:46:10 AM)

    We’re not here to excuse Joakim Noah. But offering some context is only fair.

  • [NYDN] LeBron James made a cry for help, and the Cavs need to listen
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:43:21 AM)

    On the “wow” meter, the alarm sounded by LeBron James late Monday night was pretty, well, wow-worthy.

  • [SNY Knicks] Melo a fan of St. Ray’s PG Isaiah Washington, who will be at SNY Invitational
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:00:15 PM)

    Carmelo Anthony is a fan of St. Raymond’s point guard Isaiah Washington, who will be on display in the SNY Invitational.

  • [SNY Knicks] Should the Knicks be worried about Porzingis?
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 5:20:56 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis, who recently returned from an Achilles injury, had one of his worst games of the season during Monday night’s win against the Pacers.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks were relieved after Monday’s win over Pacers
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 11:35:52 AM)

    The Knicks were relieved after Monday night’s 109-103 win over the Pacers — just the third in their last 10 games.

  • [SNY Knicks] Porzingis is NBA’s 7th most popular jersey; Rose 10th, Anthony 15th
    (Tuesday, January 24, 2017 10:35:15 AM)

    Knicks F Kristaps Porzingis has the NBA’s 7th most popular jersey, the league announced Tuesday, while Derrick Rose’s jersey ranks 10th and Carmelo Anthony’s 15th.

  • 119 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2017.01.25)”

    Derrick Needs His Space: If Brian said that he’s dead wrong. Phil didn’t have the opportunity to rebuild when he took office. He didn’t even have the courtesy of being left a first round pick for 2 of the next 3 years by his predecessor when he came into office so tanking/full rebuilding would have made zero sense.

    With this logic, you’ve just absolved every Knick GM for not rebuilding ever since the Marbury trade. You are also arguing that hte Nets shouldn’t be rebuilding. They should have signed players Chandler Parsons or Marvin Williams or some other vets so they could have a chance at 30 wins!

    Not having your picks and being a bad team is even more of a reason to rebuild since you don’t have any chance of trading those picks to up your current talent. The lotto is not the only advantage of rebuilding. By rebuilding and getting rid of all players who are “discovered”, i.e. in or near their prime, you are able to use your roster to discover and develop young talent. You don’t need picks to do this.

    So since Melo was officially NOT named an All-Star Starter, he’s finally playing like one (at least on the offensive end) — eFG 58.2, TS 62.7, USG 29.5, and averaging 26.7/6.7/3 per 36. — a reminder that he really can be a special offensive player. And actually, to my eye, his defense has been… less awful. That’s something at least.

    by the way, anyone thinking about Melo being traded to Boston – just not going to happen. Their problem is on the defensive end, not the offensive end. They’re 7th in offense and 22nd in defense – like nearly as bad as we are on D. What in the world do they need Carmelo for? So they can be 5th in offense and 28th on defense?

    I think we really should be trying to move KOQ to Boston for Jerebko and Boston’s own 2017 or 2018 first rounder (Jerebko would just be salary filler).

    @Frank

    What’s weird about Boston is they were #4 in defense just last season. Only changes are replacing David Lee, Jared Sullinger and Evan Turner with Horford, Brown and Mickey…

    Knicks are in far worse shape than most people think. There is very little talent across the roster. Even Porzingis doesn’t seem like a developing superstar and the rest of the rookies don’t really show consistently good play, only flashes of NBA-caliber play here and there.

    It pains me to say this, but Rose has been one of our best players. That shows how bad the team is.

    And this is all Phil Jackson’s work, no matter what the usual apologists say.

    Turner and Sullinger were actually reasonably good defenders so that hurts.

    They are also getting manhandled on the glass — it’s a pattern with Horford – Atlanta was perennially awful on the boards with him, and now Boston is. They’re 3rd worst in rebounding overall and dead last in defensive rebounding. Horford has a rebound rate of 11.4, which is bottom 7 of all centers in the league, and Olynyk, who plays a bunch of stretch 5, has a rebound rate of only 11.6. Amir Johnson used to be a good rebounder and now he’s been pretty bad too. For pete’s sake, Avery Bradley is their leading rebounder at 6.7/game! Their leading per-min rebounder is Tyler Zeller at 8.7. We have 4 guys on our team who average more than that (Noah/KOQ/Willy/Plumlee). And as great as Isaiah Thomas is, he is a total defensive liability.

    It pains me to say this, but Rose has been one of our best players. That shows how bad the team is.

    Oh for sure man. You know Rose has been one of our best players because. . .

    With this logic, you’ve just absolved every Knick GM for not rebuilding ever since the Marbury trade.

    That’s ridiculous. You don’t even make sense with these sloppy equivalences and stramman characterizations. Lets see how Phil’s situation compares to “every GM since Marbury” excluding Steve Mills whose one year as GM was irrelevant.

    Unlike in Phil’s case Isaiah Thomas himself traded away the pick that brought us Stephon Marbury in his first year as GM, not his predecessor. And the year after that Isaiah had 3 picks (8th, 30th, 54th) in the 2005 draft. Isaiah had the 20th and 29th picks in the 2006 draft despite his stupid decision to trade the rights to our own first round pick in a package for Eddie Curry as well as the 23rd pick in the 2007 draft. Donnie Walsh had the 6th and 8th draft picks in his first two years as GM until he was robbed of an opportunity to pick in the first round because Isaiah’s moronic trade for Marbury. He also had access to our 2011 first round pick where he chose 11th. That’s 3 of our first round 4 picks under his tenure. While its true that by the time Glenn Grunwald came in that our 2012 first round pick was traded away in that ridiculous deal for Tracy McGrady, unlike Phil Jackson, he also had inherited a winning team. Even then he had a first round pick in the next 2013 draft.

    In Phil’s case, he neither had two of his next three first round picks thanks to the Melo and Bargiani deals, a losing 37-45 record team which Grunwald never had to deal with, and one valued asset about to leave via FA. He had inherited a shit sandwhich created by the accumulated incompetence of predecessors who traded his picks away and a poorly constructed top heavy team with nothing of value outside of its soon to be injured superstar. It was by far the worst situation any GM in recent Knicks memory had inherited because there were no assets to rebuild…

    You know Rose has been one of our best players because. . .

    Because the team, as bad as it is, performs much worse without him.

    No matter what we think of Rose (and I want him gone today, if possible), that’s an undeniable truth.

    All I know is Phil Jackson inherited a truly bad situation and promptly made it much worse.

    That’s all there is to it.

    Whether he is worse or better thsn his predecessors is irrelevant: he has been horrendous as GM and deserves to be fired.

    At 7.0%, I’m the best 3-point shooter in my neighborhood. Much better than my uncle Oscar “The Mouth”, who has 4.5% a career average.

    Not having your picks and being a bad team is even more of a reason to rebuild since you don’t have any chance of trading those picks to up your current talent. The lotto is not the only advantage of rebuilding. By rebuilding and getting rid of all players who are “discovered”, i.e. in or near their prime, you are able to use your roster to discover and develop young talent. You don’t need picks to do this.

    Explain to me in what universe how a team rebuilds with no picks and only a star player who wouldn’t sign an extension in any trade the GM would make? Even the fucking Nets have the ability to get rid of Brook Lopez, we couldn’t even do that with Melo when Phil came in because of the leverage he had going out as a FA. We had no young talent on our squad because the Melo trade wiped out 2 of our former first round picks (Gallo and Chandler) from the team as well as two other future first rounders while the McGrady deal took away our 2010 first round pick.

    I want a tangible plan. This is bullshit. You’re just making up opportunities that didn’t exist. You have to have actual assets to rebuild with, Phil had next to none. I don’t see why people refuse to understand this basic reality of the situation he inherited. At best I’ve seen Brian Cronin swear to me we could have had Jae Crowder in a package deal for Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton instead of Shane Larkin.

    Because the team, as bad as it is, performs much worse without him.

    Not according to WS/48 or VORP. He’s actually the biggest reason for our freefall in games.

    Even Porzingis doesn’t seem like a developing superstar and the rest of the rookies don’t really show consistently good play, only flashes of NBA-caliber play here and there.

    He’s easily in the top 3 of the best players in the 2015 draft. Which means Phil did well with the 4th overall pick in that draft. Of course you fail to mention he also picked one of the top 5 players in the 2016 draft in Hernangomez with a second round pick, but that doesn’t surprise me.

    All I know is Phil Jackson inherited a truly bad situation and promptly made it much worse.

    Here is the underlying problem with the ass backwards logic directed at Phil’s first two seasons – people think he made the situation worse when that was already largely set in stone by the time he arrived. Not only was there no way our team was going to be any good, it was already set in motion that we’d regress in that time because of the lack of assets to rebuild around with. Could he have made better deals? Sure. But as I’ve said countless times before, he deserves more time to reconstruct the roster because the mess we’re in took waaaay longer to create.

    Even the fucking Nets have the ability to get rid of Brook Lopez, we couldn’t even do that with Melo when Phil came in because of the leverage he had going out as a FA.

    And Phil promptly made it worse by giving Melo the max plus a NTC!

    But then again…this was not Phil’s decision, right?

    I feel my IQ just went 30 points lower by engaging Derrick. Time to cut my losses!

    Derrick – last post from me. Will better use my time on more rational fellow Knickerbloggers.

    Ciao!

    So since Melo was officially NOT named an All-Star Starter, he’s finally playing like one (at least on the offensive end) — eFG 58.2, TS 62.7, USG 29.5, and averaging 26.7/6.7/3 per 36. — a reminder that he really can be a special offensive player. And actually, to my eye, his defense has been… less awful. That’s something at least.

    It really bugs me that he started to give a shit and play like something resembling a max player the moment his superstar pride was wounded, but it if makes him a more attractive trade asset then I am all for it. He’s at least showing me he isn’t as washed up as thought he was, just lazier and more egoistic that I assumed.

    I feel my IQ just went 30 points lower by engaging Derrick. Time to cut my losses!

    Please do. You have so precious little to begin with, squandering anymore would be a real tragedy.

    And Phil promptly made it worse by giving Melo the max plus a NTC!

    The NTC was necessary to keep the one asset this team had at that time. I didn’t like it but it made sense. After giving up our 2007 and 2008 first round choices in Chandler and Galinari, our 2012 and 2013 second round draft picks, and our 2014 and 2016 first round draft picks to get this one player on top of Raymond Felton and Timofey Mozgov it would have beyond tragic if we let him walk out the door without the prospect of keeping him so we could maybe receive something/anything in exchange for him in a trade down the road.

    Boston is not trading the pick for koq.
    Since when can’t melo rebound or play defense…. he just isn’t motivated on that end like he is in defense. He can play defense and rebound when he is motivated. Horrors and melo would make a formidable front court with all those young backups they have.

    Put melo on a contender and watch him turn into faried

    @Derrick, in a worst case scenario where all the things you are speculating to be true are actually true or even WORSE tan you present them — Carmelo is so determined to stay in NY that he will retire from basketball if he is traded, no other player on the roster could have been traded for anything more in terms of future value than they were, and those that weren’t traded had no trade value, there was still opportunity to develop the team for the future.

    Sure, Isiah traded picks for Marbury, but once he made that initial mistake, from your point of view, you would say he was smart to not bother trying to rebuild. And we can talk about picks all day long. Isiah inherited far worse contracts than Phil Jackson, and those were used to excuse not rebuilding as well. Do those go into the equation?

    My point is your criteria are wrong. Being bad means you need to rebuild. Being bad and being old and lacking picks or having bad contracts just makes that need more urgent.

    lol. Again your stupid narrative is wrong Melo has played well all month

    Its not my narrative, take it up with Frank’s stats. The only sense I can draw from that month of data you presented was that he had his best games in the past two weeks.

    So Melo has had a good few weeks and all of a sudden he’s an amazing basketball player again? Dude still has something left in the tank for sure, but he is not the same player he was a few years ago. Just look at his numbers this season. Or not, considering this is all part of some stupid narrative.

    Carmelo is so determined to stay in NY that he will retire from basketball if he is traded, no other player on the roster could have been traded for anything more in terms of future value than they were, and those that weren’t traded had no trade value, there was still opportunity to develop the team for the future.

    For one thing, unlike you, I am not a mind-reader. I don’t pretend to divine what is in Melo’s heart and I don’t particularly care to speculate about it. For another, what I do know is that from a management perspective the actual decision to keep him with a NTC made rational sense considering the very dire situation the Knicks found themselves in going into the 2014-15 season. Yes, we were never going to recoup the value of 2 first round players, 2 future first round draft picks, 2 future second round picks, and Mozgov/Felton that we lost trading for Melo. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to get something/anything in return for him instead of sinking the cost and having absolutely nothing to show for that horrendous trade outside of a 2nd round sweep in the 2013 playoffs by the Indiana Pacers.

    Sure, Isiah traded picks for Marbury, but once he made that initial mistake, from your point of view, you would say he was smart to not bother trying to rebuild.

    Wrong. You still don’t get it after I’ve explained this several times in explicit detail, do you? My argument isn’t that Phil didn’t bother rebuilding, my argument is that he couldn’t rebuild coming in as GM because he had a lack of valuable assets to do so – certainly far less than any GM we’ve seen in the past 17 years. Isaiah chose not to rebuild and trade picks to win now with middling veterans. Phil didn’t have the option to make that decision.

    I asked you in my previous post and you still can’t answer the question: explain to me how a team rebuilds with no picks and only a star player who wouldn’t sign…

    Did people expect this team to be fundamentally better than its been by now? I am thrilled at where we are in comparison to the state Phil found it. We could have done so much better by not having Rambis on our bench, trading for Noah/Rose, tanking fully to get the first pick in the 2015 draft, etc. But we actually hit big on our last two drafts, have a decent coach, and now own our own picks with some assets available to trade. Depending on how Phil handles the Melo situation at the trade deadline, this team could finally go full steam with a total rebuild. All we need to do now is watch this team lose at it was meant to do. We’re so close to the bottom I can taste it.

    Of all the things Phil has done, the NTC is the worst, only because it gave Melo all the power — and he didn’t have to do that. Melo has shown you already how much he wants to stay in NYC. Lala loves it here, his son loves it here, Melo loves it here.

    I hope this isn’t going too far afield for Knickerblogger, but I sort of feel about Phil Jackson like maybe Trump feels about the Obama administration — he’s a really smart guy, he knows tons about lots of things, but does not know how to go to the negotiating table and come back with a favorable deal. (I am not a Trump supporter at all, but I can definitely see this specific line of thinking)

    Phil has a terrible time reading the market and understanding what is agent bluff and what is real. 4 years/72MM for Noah? That was a laughable contract the second it was signed. A NTC for Melo? Was he really going to leave tens of millions of dollars on the table to go somewhere else (where he wouldn’t have a NTC either)?

    A NTC for Melo? Was he really going to leave tens of millions of dollars on the table to go somewhere else (where he wouldn’t have a NTC either)?

    Yes, because Melo had options to anywhere and we didn’t have an option to replace him. Its really as simple and profound as that.

    Everyone here acts like sinking that amount cost is no big deal in comparison to a NTC that could be waved the moment Phil decides to tell Melo that we aren’t playing for shit.

    Yes, because Melo had options to anywhere and we didn’t have an option to replace him. Its really as simple and profound as that. Everyone here acts like sinking that amount cost is no big deal in comparison to a NTC that could be waved the moment Phil decides to tell Melo that we aren’t playing for shit.

    He had options but he would have had to leave something like $30MM on the table. If you know Melo’s history, he doesn’t leave $30MM on the table.

    And even if Melo agrees to be traded, he’s not going to agree to go to Sacramento. It’s not like he has to waive the NTC under all circumstances — just for exactly the places he wants to go. So that kills the negotiating power even more.

    Phil has done a good job drafting and not trading draft picks. It’s just the negotiating part that has been really awful.

    (i’ll give him an A+ on that Willy Hernagomez 4 year 6MM contract though!!)

    My point is — a good negotiator would have said “this is what we can pay you, but we will not give you a NTC”, and forced Melo to a decision, and trusting your read that Melo really DID want to stay, whether for $ or for NYC or all of it together. Instead, it was “here is everything you want”.

    He had options but he would have had to leave something like $30MM on the table. If you know Melo’s history, he doesn’t leave $30MM on the table.

    This is where speculation into motives comes into play. I can just as easily tell you that the NTC was a deal breaker because Melo’s history suggests he wouldn’t risk the uprooting his family to live in a place they don’t want to live. I could just as easily tell you that it would be a cold day in Hell for Melo to risk playing out the end of his career in a place like Utah, Portland, etc. that his family doesn’t want to live after he worked so hard to leverage out of a winning situation in a small market city like Denver. But its all speculation.

    So Melo has had a good few weeks and all of a sudden he’s an amazing basketball player again?

    Yeah that’s exactly what I wrote.

    @ 31 Yes, of course. How could I be so silly? Carmelo’s 0.6 BPM, .126 WS/48, and .543 TS % is very deserving of making the all star game. Why stop there? I think he’s up there with Westbrook and Harden in MVP consideration tbh.

    So since Melo was officially NOT named an All-Star Starter, he’s finally playing like one (at least on the offensive end)

    I believe I called it and said he was due for a major resurgence. He couldn’t play as bad as he was playing forever.

    Melo has played 34,000+ minutes and his career TS% is .545. This season it’s .543. That’s his true level of ability. He might go on a stretch for a few games where he’s up over .600, but his efficiency numbers over his career are very stable. He is not now, nor has he ever been, a .600+ TS% player, unless you go the ruru route and cherry-pick his most efficient games.

    His aging curve looks completely normal, and he’s on the downside of that aging curve now.

    Carmelo leads the league in points attempted, rebound opportunities, steal pressures, block assists and unfairly uncalled shooting fouls. No reason a guy with those stats should not be an MVP. They should give him last year’s awards too.

    #alternativefacts

    Because the team, as bad as it is, performs much worse without him.

    How do you know this?

    Derrick Needs His Space: Wrong. You still don’t get it after I’ve explained this several times in explicit detail, do you? My argument isn’t that Phil didn’t bother rebuilding, my argument is that he couldn’t rebuild coming in as GM because he had a lack of valuable assets to do so – certainly far less than any GM we’ve seen in the past 17 years.

    I really don’t understand this. This is like saying, “i’m too poor to get a job.” The only way to get more valuable talent is rebuilding. That’s what it’s for. There are many other ways of investing in your team’s future than just getting a high lotto pick. The Rockets post McGrady/Yao prove this.

    Derrick Needs His Space:
    I asked you in my previous post and you still can’t answer the question: explain to me how a team rebuilds with no picks and only a star player who wouldn’t sign…

    First, why are you accusing me of being a mind-reader when you are saying with such confidence Melo was this uniquely untradeable star?

    Second, the same way anyone else rebuilds except without getting high draft picks. You take a policy of “We don’t care about cap space,” when it comes to trades, so if you’re trading a Tyson Chandler or an Iman Shumpert, you’re also taking back the longest, worst contracts you can so you also get the most OTHER stuff you can. Jackson did the opposite of this.

    For those players who have no future with the team and have no trade value, you waive them, clearing roster spots, minutes and shots for younger players who were maybe former #2 picks that never got a chance or recently undrafted players. If you don’t think the Knicks could have gotten at least a half dozen players like this onto the roster and given them multi-year unguaranteed contracts… I don’t know what to say. This is how the Rockets got players like Kyle Lowry, Goran Dragic, Chandler Parsons, Monrezl Harrell and many more players.

    @ Derrick Needs HIs Space – you don’t get it. Unless you agree with the hive mind on here that the future is totally lost and bleak and Phil Jackson is a complete failure, then you are an idiot. Any position that is not totally negative will be made fun of and you will be called stupid.

    Its really ridiculous. I wish there was a site somewhere between Knickerblogger and P and T where fans could root for the team and praise the positive things that are going on while also being realistic about the negative aspects of this franchise. It seems to be either or. Either you’re a knickerblogger who thinks everything is doom and gloom or you’re a rah rah Melo P and T cheerleader.

    I really don’t understand this. This is like saying, “i’m too poor to get a job.” The only way to get more valuable talent is rebuilding. That’s what it’s for. There are many other ways of investing in your team’s future than just getting a high lotto pick. The Rockets post McGrady/Yao prove this.

    Explain how.

    First, why are you accusing me of being a mind-reader when you are saying with such confidence Melo was this uniquely untradeable star?

    Its not mind-reading, its documented fact that Melo was untradable the final year of his first contract with the Knicks because he publicly declared his intention to test free agency when he opted out of the final year of his contract that would have paid him $23.3 million in the 2014-2015 season. You think a team was going to give the Knicks assets for a player whose intention was to test free agency the half season afterward?

    so if you’re trading a Tyson Chandler or an Iman Shumpert, you’re also taking back the longest, worst contracts you can so you also get the most OTHER stuff you can. Jackson did the opposite of this.

    Let’s say Phil could have gotten Crowder for Chandler and Shumpert. Is this the extent of your critique of Phil’s failure to rebuild? That he didn’t maximize his assets?

    For those players who have no future with the team and have no trade value, you waive them, clearing roster spots, minutes and shots for younger players who were maybe former #2 picks that never got a chance or recently undrafted players. If you don’t think the Knicks could have gotten at least a half dozen players like this onto the roster and given them multi-year unguaranteed contracts… I don’t know what to say. This is how the Rockets got players like Kyle Lowry, Goran Dragic, Chandler Parsons, Monrezl Harrell and many more players.

    I want a list of these younger players we had an option to play so many more minutes that you’re thinking of. It seems to me you wanted more D-League roster players.

    You have to be realistic about these things-that’s where Phil Jackson has failed. You don’t have to blow things up and mega tank like the Sixers. There are many paths to the summit. But you have to know where you’re standing first before you pick a path, and the Knicks seem to consistently think they are closer to the top then they are.

    @40

    I really don’t get it. So far the level of criticism I am reading is that Phil didn’t do a good enough job to get Jae Crowder/Kyle Lowry type players. The funny thing is that even their examples don’t make sense because a team like Houston had an asset in Rafer Alston to trade to get Kyle Lowry. I mean, I suppose we could have offered a team Raymond Felton or Iman Shumpert for a backup PG who wasn’t getting love from his team, but this is trivial shit compared to the core of young talent Phil has brought in. I think you have to balance the two against each other and recognize he’s assembled some nice overlooked talent like Kyle O’Quinn and Justin Holiday while also loading us with two very promising players in KP and Willy.

    You have to be realistic about these things-that’s where Phil Jackson has failed. You don’t have to blow things up and mega tank like the Sixers. There are many paths to the summit. But you have to know where you’re standing first before you pick a path, and the Knicks seem to consistently think they are closer to the top then they are.

    I agree 100 percent. Its my major criticism of Phil’s tenure as well as the franchise in the longer term. The Knicks are an organization of delusional half-measures. They they plan as if they are a relevant contending team when the reality shows they are a perennial loser.

    Phil could have committed more fully to his rebuild, but this team was going to be pretty shitty the first two years of his tenure without any FAs willing to join Melo. That’s the reality of the situation.

    @Derrick

    No, Phil has admonished himself for choosing a #2 pick over Crowder. That’s fake humility or retrospective thinking. In that specific trade, Jackson shouldn’t have foisted Ray Felton upon Dallas. What else might they have given us had we not forced Felton’s deal on them? My guess is we could have gotten that #2 pick AND Crowder. And at what cost? Paying Felton $4m for another two years? We used double that money on Arron Afflalo.

    I’m talking about doing what the Rockets did and PART of what the 6ers did and what the Nets have done since hiring Marks. Give minutes and roster spots to young players who are less highly touted. Trade role players to get them.

    In an alternate world not too far from our own, Kyle Lowry washes out of the league after not getting opportunities in Orlando. Montrezl Harrell labors over in Europe his entire career along with Pat Beverley and Robert Covington and Wes Matthews. Clint Capela is still a backup that no one but hardcore fans have heard of. Caris Levert plays 5 mpg and due to lack of experience in real NBA games, washes out of the league after his rookie deal. Landry Fields and Jeremy Lin are sharing an apartment because they can’t AFFORD to live on their own because no one thought much of them out of college and no one gave them minutes.

    In this alternate world, the Rockets look just like the Knicks right now because without Lowry, there’s no Toronto pick and no Harden. These unglamorous young players don’t usually turn into anything, but when they do, you can flip them again for another, better investment chip. This is how team’s get richer as opposed to vet free agents, who only become less valuable over time.

    And maybe these types of moves aren’t as glamorous or important as the high draft picks, but they’re a fundamental part of rebuilding.

    In regards to Melo’s NTC being necessary, remember that Melo was offered multiple contracts:

    Jackson ended up offering Anthony a maximum contract of $129 million over five years when the Knicks met with him during his free-agency visits. The offer was one of five contract options presented to Anthony, according to the Knicks president.
    Jackson insinuated Sunday that Anthony accepted a deal worth less than maximum money in the early seasons to help the Knicks’ financial flexibility.

    It is likely that Melo took the slightly under max contract with a NTC over a full max without. This took the tough choice of whether to tear it all down, or try to rebuild quickly around Melo, out of Phil’s hands and put it into Melo’s. But make no mistake, the NTC committed the Knicks to try to rebuild around Melo.

    What else might they have given us had we not forced Felton’s deal on them? My guess is we could have gotten that #2 pick AND Crowder.

    For 31 year old Tyson Chandler on a down season? Are you fucking nuts?

    I’m talking about doing what the Rockets did and PART of what the 6ers did and what the Nets have done since hiring Marks. Give minutes and roster spots to young players who are less highly touted. Trade role players to get them.

    We didn’t have promising role players to trade outside of Iman Shumpert due a lack of picks accumulated the prior 4 years. We had high-priced wash ups like Felton, Bargiani, Stoudemire, Metta World Peace, Kenyon Martin, and arguably Tyson Chandler at the time. These were the role players we had: Cole Aldrich, Shannon Brown, Earl Clark, Tim Hardaway, Tou’re Murray, Pablo Priginoni, Chris Smith, Jeremy Tyler, Beno Udrich. Good luck with that group. I sure would love to see what you propose Phil should’ve done with it.

    In an alternate world not too far from our own, Kyle Lowry washes out of the league after not getting opportunities in Orlando. Montrezl Harrell labors over in Europe his entire career along with Pat Beverley and Robert Covington and Wes Matthews. Clint Capela is still a backup that no one but hardcore fans have heard of. Caris Levert plays 5 mpg and due to lack of experience in real NBA games, washes out of the league after his rookie deal.

    I don’t get it. Much of what you want Phil to do he’s already done. It took a starting guard in Rafer Austin to get a Kyle Lowry, a second round pick was used to get Montrezl Harrell like we used one to get Willy Hernangomez (and we lost one before Phil came along BTW), Pat Beverley was signed abroad like we signed Kuzminskis, Robert Covington was a UDFA the way Phil acquired Ron Baker, Wes Matthews was a UDFA the way we acquired Langston Galloway.

    It is likely that Melo took the slightly under max contract with a NTC over a full max without.

    Which again shows Phil’s terrible skills as a negotiator. What was the upside of that tiny discount Melo gave the team in year two? They were able to give slightly more money to Derrick Williams or Arron Afflalo? The “discount” Melo gave the Knicks added up to nothing. And the NTC is a giant albatross.

    Thanks, Phil!

    It is likely that Melo took the slightly under max contract with a NTC over a full max without.

    Eh, I’d like to be more sure of that. There were multiple issues at stake in those negotiations, including the opt out clause in his contract.

    Not sure what we are arguing about here.

    The extent to which Phil Jackson can be blamed for this team’s status in NBA purgatory this season.

    For what it’s worth, I asked Phil this exact question at the New Yorker festival in fall ’14. I wanted to know if the NTC was given in consideration of the slight discount and I pointed out how rare it is. At the time, I was the only one of my friends freaked out by it. He demurred and said something mushy about there always being a market for Carmelo if we ever had to trade him (ignoring that Melo holds the cards). Sadly, I was so nervous that I only realized that he dodged my question after I returned to my seat (I doubt I would have got a followup question anyway…)

    Literally every player on our roster was acquired by Phil Jackson. What is the argument for him not being responsible for our terribleness?

    It is likely that Melo took the slightly under max contract with a NTC over a full max without.

    The NTC should never even have been offered, regardless of max or no max.

    I can just as easily tell you that the NTC was a deal breaker because Melo’s history suggests he wouldn’t risk the uprooting his family to live in a place they don’t want to live.

    Remember – the Knicks were the ONLY team able to give him the extra $ and the NTC. So where could he go that he wouldn’t have the risk of uprooting his family?

    So you put Melo to a choice. Do you want to give up $30MM and go somewhere else while looking like you’re bailing on the team that you held for ransom in 2010, or do you want the $ and the bright lights of MSG?

    And sure, it’s possible that he would leave, but anyone with a brain knows that Melo takes the $ when he can, and that he loves NYC. And that’s part of negotiating — knowing what the other side really wants.

    Similarly, everyone and their mother knew that Noah wanted to come back to NYC and play with Derrick Rose. You couldn’t have negotiated a 3 year deal at least? Or a partially guaranteed 4th year? For a dude who’s already 32 and plays the same position as your best player?

    Literally every player on our roster was acquired by Phil Jackson. What is the argument for him not being responsible for our terribleness?

    +1

    But you do have to give some credit for not trading picks and being good at finding young talent. Those are two actual things that he has done.

    But you do have to give some credit for not trading picks and being good at finding young talent. Those are two actual things that he has done.

    Definitely. If I’m not mistaken I believe he had an unofficial advisory role with the Pistons before taking this job. That seems far more suited to what appear to be his talents (scouting, mostly). I’d love to have Phil Jackson as chief scout or whatever, but he clearly can’t handle total control of basketball operations. He doesn’t read the market worth a damn and has poor production evaluation skills when it comes to already established players.

    It seems comedian John Henson and lots of other fans have been feuding with the Daily News drek, to the point where Bondy invited Henson on his podcast to debate, and cancelled last minute. Henson then wrote a long piece directed at those guys thats pretty interesting:

    “We have… a star player who actually WANTS to be a Knick, even though every day the media tries to run him out of town. We have a 7? 3? unicorn with the handles of a guard and a stroke like Ray Allen. We have contract flexibility, a ton of cap room, all our draft picks and some promising bench players like KOQ, Cheese, Hernan the Barbarian, Ron Burgundy and Just Holla. Hell, even “a Plumlee to be named later” has had some moments.

    Any reporter worth his salt HAS to give time to the positives as well as the negatives. Otherwise, you’re just a glorified soap opera writer, concocting “Melo-drama” at the expense of your own credibility…

    “Then don’t read that crap,” the argument goes. “Just ignore it.”

    Well, it ain’t that easy. The endless fountain of negativity surrounding the franchise pulls the team down. Don’t tell me it doesn’t. At its most destructive, bad press can create fissures between players and management, scare off potential free agents and turn a losing streak into a lost season. It costs people their jobs, gets players traded and affects the morale of the team and the fans. It’s like a low level infection that suppresses our ability to improve.”

    I dont agree with much of what is said, but the bits on Isola etc rudely denigrating fans on twitter was cool. I do agree that Isola does negatively affect the franchise on many levels.

    Literally every player on our roster was acquired by Phil Jackson. What is the argument for him not being responsible for our terribleness?

    I’m not rewriting what I’ve already written multiple times here.

    The sad thing is that the average fan thinks like John Henson. They think Melo is still a “star” player and that he deserves to be praised for wanting to stay in NY (just lol). They also think KP is as good a shooter as Ray Allen too, apparently. In other words, people like John Henson delude themselves into accepting mediocrity. It’s the media’s fault that the Knicks have sucked for over a decade. It’s Isola’s fault that Derrick Rose went AWOL like a child.

    Jeez, give me a fuggen break. John Henson’s crap is the lamest excuse I have ever heard for shoddy management.

    This team sucks because a succession of poor GMs built various incarnations of the team around overrated players.

    The end.

    Im not saying I agree with him on Melo, and all, but the point was the unprofessionalism and rudeness guys like Isola talk to fans and members of the Knicks. “Provide coverage that’s as detailed and comprehensive as our passion for the team! I’m tired of reading about Noah’s bad contract, Melo’s no trade clause and Phil’s mind games. That’s low hanging fruit. Yes, those are valid stories… but they’re not the ONLY stories! There IS upside here.”

    I mean, it wouldn’t shock me if free agents looked at the NY media and thought to themselves, “Fuck that.”

    Still, it’s a small slice of the pie that has made the Knicks into Sacto East.

    Check Isola’s twitter, he went in on John Henson and his asinine comments. I guess this little squabble happened a day ago.

    And no, the Knicks don’t suck because of the harsh media. The media is harsh because the Knicks suck.

    Oh geez: I am high on KPs future but FFS “handle like a guard” “stroke like Ray Allen”. Does he watch? I see KP constantly getting stripped when he tries to dribble. Last year he shot 33.3% from three. This year it is 38.8%. That’s nice but hardly Ray Allen. The inability to see reality is such a huge obstacle to overcome.

    I like our bench guys but you gotta give them more than half a season. See: Fields, Landry; Linsanity vis a vis career since then etc.

    I could go on, but you get the point.

    Free agents don’t want to come here because this team loses all the time.

    Over the last 16 years the Knicks have a .393 winning percentage. That comes out to 32 wins per year. The real elite players of this league have shown time and time again that they’re not interested in signing up for that.

    If this team had not been so soul-crushingly bad for so long, maybe the media wouldn’t have so many negative things to say.

    Derrick Rose’s Knick jersey being tenth in sales is some next level shit tbh.

    this is a little worrisome…it seems some knick moves are made with an eye towards marketing…

    the knicks though are actually in 5th for nba team merchandise…yeah, very little motivation in the front office to “fix” things when they’re still making easy money…

    howdy owen…

    Not sure what we are arguing about here.

    does it even really matter, just one unending circle jerk of why the knicks suck as bad as they do, and, what pointless ideas we can come up with to end the agony…

    hmmmm, feeling a little detached today…maybe some aimee mann will cheer me up…
    It’s not what you thought
    When you first began it
    You got what you want
    Now you can hardly stand it, though
    By now you know
    It’s not going to stop
    It’s not going to stop
    It’s not going to stop
    Till you wise up

    wonder if we’ll win tonight…

    @68

    That was a total buzzkill of a post. It should be labeled with a warning sign stating, “Abandon Hope, all ye who read this.”

    They think Melo is still a “star” player and that he deserves to be praised for wanting to stay in NY

    I think its because fans would trash the star player if he said he didnt want to be here. Its true of anyone.

    sorry ras…must be all the rain we’re getting out here in so cal…

    keep thinking that in two months phil will have been here 3 years, and, what do we have to show for it…the image of the faces d’antoni and woodson used to make on the sideline when things went wrong (which was a lot) keep going through my mind a lot lately (why couldn’t i get pics of jessica alba or kate beckinsale stuck in my head)…

    trying to remember what it felt like to win that opening round series against the celtics a few years ago…it’s tough though to remember much “good” times from the last decade and a half…

    oh well…pitches and catchers will start showing up in tampa in a few weeks – that’s a good thing…

    maybe the knicks will start playing a little better for a couple of weeks – who knows…hopefully we trade or fire someone – cuz, well that’s about all we have to look forward to for awhile…

    Im not saying I agree with him on Melo, and all, but the point was the unprofessionalism and rudeness guys like Isola talk to fans and members of the Knicks. “Provide coverage that’s as detailed and comprehensive as our passion for the team! I’m tired of reading about Noah’s bad contract, Melo’s no trade clause and Phil’s mind games. That’s low hanging fruit. Yes, those are valid stories… but they’re not the ONLY stories! There IS upside here.”

    We’re still getting a defense of the NTC, the most blatantly moronic move that the Knicks have made in years today, so it seems foolish to be complaining about debating it. It’s not “low hanging fruit” if people are defending it still.

    When we get a couple of first rounders for Melo that NTC is going to look genius. Now its fashionable around here to hate on Phil for it but the market is there.

    trying to remember what it felt like to win that opening round series against the celtics a few years ago…it’s tough though to remember much “good” times from the last decade and a half…

    Even that memory is soured when you realize that we went to the wire against a washed up Celtics team without Rondo.

    Geo I had some hope for you but now it seems that you’re sinking into the abyss too. Hold your head up and think good thoughts. We have a young core to build around, draft picks going forward, and assets to get us into the postseason or to trade for a brighter future. Yes, and Phil too, who is a winner through and through. It’s all good so stay positive.

    I’m surprised nobody has brought up the reality that for at least the next 3 years and maybe more it’s an uphill battle against GS, CLE, and SAS. It would make more sense to build on a timeline of 3-4 years out which makes every player tradeable other than Willy and KP IMO.

    I’m surprised nobody has brought up the reality that for at least the next 3 years and maybe more it’s an uphill battle against GS, CLE, and SAS. It would make more sense to build on a timeline of 3-4 years out which makes every player tradeable other than Willy and KP IMO.

    With that logic there would never be a reason to ever try to win. There will always be great teams

    It would make more sense to build on a timeline of 3-4 years out which makes every player tradeable other than Willy and KP IMO.

    Why do you think I’m so keen to tank and trade? We don’t even have a shot of winning a championship if you eliminated all three of those teams from the face of the Earth. Toronto, Houston, LA Clippers are way better teams as well.

    Not true. You will have cap problems with GS upcoming, LeBron will be feeling the effects of age and I can’t imagine the Spurs can keep it together forever. In the meantime you have a full contract cycle you can go through taking bad assets and accumulating youth through recouped assets for the next couple years while you let some of the talent you find develop. We haven’t had a cohesive unit in years and that can start being developed sooner rather than later. Sure the Celtics and Sixers and others will start coming on, but we aren’t doing anything to get to the level of Cleveland in the next 3 years. There’s no path there. No sense in acting like it’s possible because it isn’t.

    Even that memory is soured when you realize that we went to the wire against a washed up Celtics team without Rondo.

    man, i though you was about to give me some kind of pep talk…”shit, things ain’t really that bad”, “at least we got kp and willy” or something…hell, you’re trying to taint the one lone positive memory i still have from the last 16 years…

    “WHAT IF THIS IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS?”
    Melvin Udall: It’s not true. Some of us have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car. But, a lot of people, that’s their story. Good times, noodle salad. What makes it so hard is not that you had it bad, but that you’re that pissed that so many others had it good.

    fuck, i do wish the warriors, raptors and clippers still sucked worse than us…

    Glad to see so many are embracing the power of The Tank.

    Resistance is futile.

    The Spurs can definitely keep it together forever. Dejuonte Murray and Kawhi Leonard will see to it. You’re talking about a team with 8 losing seasons since they’ve been founded.

    The Spurs are a great organization but its not like they are a perennial juggernaut designed to win every year. Even in their heyday they were a franchise that won championships spread out. I would love for us to be a version of that organization in the East contending with them year in and out. Cavs will be good for 2-4 years and then fall off the map real ugly. The Warriors are an interesting case as we don’t quite understand how well that entire system will hold up as its core gets older. But right now should be our time to develop and grow.

    UMMMMMM:

    @ESPNSteinLine: Story posting now with @chrisbhaynes: ESPN sources say Knicks HAVE tried to engage Cleveland in Melo-for-Love trade talks but were rebuffed

    Per the trade machine that works as a 1 for 1 trade?!

    OK here come the hard questions.

    Would anyone do Melo+a 2018 first for Love?
    Melo + a lotto protected 2018 first for Love?

    The Cavs were never going to trade a younger, better player than Melo for Melo. What DOES work is this:

    Knicks get: Jerebko, Brown, filler
    Celtics get: Tristan Thompson
    Cavs get: Melo
    Nets get: Frye

    Boston sends their 2018 first to NY (obviously we’ll ask for more), everyone sends a 2nd to BK so they have incentive to take in Frye (Knicks could just do it themselves if BK isn’t interested). Celtics get major help with their rebounding issue, Nets get some picks, Cavs get Melo without trading Love, Knicks are free of Melo and have an extra pick.

    Ok, here’s a fun exercise I just thought of:

    Instead of Phil Jackson getting the pres gig in ’14, you do. You know that Dolan really wants to keep Melo, but he did agree per the terms of your contract, that he will not meddle at all with your duties.

    You have no first round draft pick that year, one 1st in 2015, and none again in 2016.

    And…

    You decide not to resign Carmelo Anthony.

    What do you do next?

    (Please try to make the arguments for your decisions plausible based on reality and known history, like player performance leading to the end of ’13-’14 season).

    Go!

    I said it first and will repeat it now: the Knicks will need to sweeten the pot with a couple of picks (or take some extreme garbage back) for a team to take Melo off their hands.

    Only morons keep thinking Melo is much wanted around the league, when in reality it’s nearly impossible to come up with a team that would
    1. Get Melo’s approval for a trade
    2. Be in a position to trade for him
    3. Benefit from it record-wise (they may just be interested in the picks or something else the Knicks will have to give)

    Melo will be expensive to get rid of. Easily, worst of Jackson’s many blunders at the helm.

    This should be entertaining but at the very least not offering a no-trade clause, LOL. Get someone to sign-and-trade for Melo if possible, get actual value for Tyson Chandler (although to be fair I defended the trade at the time for the second-round picks and value), and get actual value for JR (or just waive him) and Shumpert and go full-on tank for 2015.

    I wish Phil had gotten more value for the players but at the very least, no no-trade clause and more of a hardline on what they were willing to pay him. They told Jeremy Lin to go out and get his market value, right?

    @89 Spot on. This site has a lot of smart, eloquent posters that go completely dumb when the subject of trades comes up. Melo does not have much value at all.

    P.S. @71 I’m now in Southern California myself. Nice to see clear skies again, but I’m glad the rain has alleviated drought conditions.

    @86: why do we want Love again?

    Originally posted this like 35 years ago, still relevent.
    Bernard King suckz. No way should we have paid him. He’s shoot first, his vorp and +/# blow plus he’s a straight up dick who doesn’t want to be here. We should bench his ass, play Louis Orr and TANK. Sure, we won’t get the first of second pick, so we will miss out on Akeem / Sam Bowie, but we should be able to land Lancaster Gordon at 8th and build around him and Trenttraps Tuckazingus. Maybe trade a vet like Truck Robinson to the bulls for their 1st. rounder. As long as we DO NOT pay Rory Sparrow. Plus, coach Hubie is a pawn who doesnt’ know WTF he’s doing.

    A response to yesterday’s comment, re tanking….the time we picked jordan hill 8th right after steph curry went 7th, all because we won another game or two. My question is, why didn’t we pick Demar Derozan, who went 9th, or Jrue Holliday or Taj Gibson? Or, why did teams pass on Steph for Hasheem Thabeet, Ricky Rubio, Tyreke Evans or Jonny Flynn?

    The draft is uncertain, man. Still rather pick ealier. just not going to lose on purpose.

    The Curry year was the most defensible, really. The worst was the last two wins in 2015 and the three game winning streak in the Westbrook/Love year. Those were both scenarios where they knew they’d be in spot X if they just played as poorly as they had the rest of those seasons.

    D’Antoni wanted Curry. It was well publicized. We didn’t get Curry due to winning too many games. I’m not playing the hypothetical game unnecessarily re: Derozan, Holiday, etc. The Knicks wanted Curry. The Knicks did not get Curry because we picked one too late. That’s a thing that actually happened.

    Is anyone seriously arguing that tanking isn’t something you should do sometimes or that the Knicks wouldn’t be much better off if we had done it?

    You can make an argument that we are close enough to the playoffs that we shouldn’t tank. I don’t happen to think that’s a particularly intelligent argument but it’s not an alternative fact. But there is zero question that there have been a number of years where the Knicks made pretty dumb decisions that kept us from maximizing our chances at a higher pick.

    It’s easy to get frustrated at the wins at the end of seasons but it’s hard to get mad. The end of the NBA season is a race to the bottom and you can’t lose every game. You set up a team to struggle and lose lots of games but players and coaches have pride and will always try to win. You trot out a bunch of d-league players and they will try to win because playing well could get them a contract. There is no sure fire way to lose games. Especially if you want to not completely thumb your nose at the NBA like Philadelphia or Minnesota and blatantly try to lose.

    This season we need to start the rebuild, trade for long term pieces and draft picks but this idea that we can simply tank our way to a top 5 pick is absurd. We have too many wins already and even if we trade Melo, trade O’Quinn and sit KP till he’s completely healthy we will still win 30+ games.

    If Mark Stein is right that Phil approached Cleveland about a Melo-Love trade, that is a very good sign even if he got rebuffed. It means he is exploring opportunities and is ready to move on. It may also mean that Melo has given tacit consent to a trade (to certain teams).

    Does anyone doubt even a little that if we had drafted Curry we would have traded him because of his bum ankles?

    You think missing him by one pick was painful, think about if we had him and traded him and watched him develop into one of the greatest shooters in NBA history.

    Might of gone down as the worst Knick move ever, and that’s saying something.

    I agree that we can’t tank all the way to the bottom.

    It’s a fair question too whether the aggravation you cause a large fraction of your fanbase is worth going from, say, the 14th to the 10th pick. I hear what people are saying there. But we have done some dumb things in the tanking department, historically. Other teams have been smart about it and benefitted.

    Hopefully I wake up in six months with Ujiri having been poached and Dolan embarking on a 2 year sabbatical to find his musical voice.

    The Cavs were never going to trade a younger, better player than Melo for Melo. What DOES work is this:

    Knicks get: Jerebko, Brown, filler
    Celtics get: Tristan Thompson
    Cavs get: Melo
    Nets get: Frye

    Boston sends their 2018 first to NY (obviously we’ll ask for more), everyone sends a 2nd to BK so they have incentive to take in Frye (Knicks could just do it themselves if BK isn’t interested). Celtics get major help with their rebounding issue, Nets get some picks, Cavs get Melo without trading Love, Knicks are free of Melo and have an extra pick.

    My guess is the Cavs would much rather move Love than Tristan Thompson. I think there’s a small chance LBJ could convince himself that Melo would be a better fit than Love and honestly I don’t think Melo would make them much worse. The Cavs are about the best fit for Melo- a forward in LBJ who can defend the opposing teams best forward, LBJ also will draw the best defender so teams won’t be able to load up on Melo. You also have two guys who’ll dominate the ball and let Melo spot up which he does very well. It might be the only team where you’d really get Olympic Melo- I’m still not sure that even given that they wouldn’t be worse off with Melo. I just think it’s possible the LBJ might think Melo would be a better fit. Thompson has been really good for them in both playoff runs and he’s definitely their best five- they’re not going to move him.

    I don’t think it’s out of the question that Cleveland would accept a Melo-Love trade. LeBron runs that franchise. He is buddies with Melo and is frustrated with the current state of the team. Melo is also capable of playing the 3, which would allow LeBron to play the 4 in smaller lineups. Love is exclusively a 4.

    Mind you, I don’t think it’s smart for Cleveland to make that trade, but I could see circumstances in which it would happen.

    LeBron needs to get in his GM’s ear.

    Melo also finished slightly higher in the player vote for All-Stars than Love, even though Love is clearly having a better year. Melo’s reputation is still overinflated.

    @103

    Nicos, I agree. Melo would be his best self on Cleveland. Spotting up for jumpers, ditching the iso-ball by deferring to LeBron and Kyrie on offense, having LeBron and Shump around to guard the other team’s best wing. His efficiency would go up and his weaknesses would be minimized.

    so let me preface by saying, i acknowledge the benefit of a tank, though i’d rather win now, than later…

    now lets fast forward to the end of the year, we are on cusp of top 8 pick… we trot out our bottom 5 players for 35 minutes a night and they play in crunch time… they arent playing like superstars but the team stays afloat throughout a few games… they end up winning the last 3 games of the year, somehow… Is this anti-tank? i know that all the pro-tankers would be furious… at that point, i would be a little taken back by such wins (and i’m an anti-tanker)… just curious to what depths we go to preserve the tank… ?

    so let me preface by saying, i acknowledge the benefit of a tank, though i’d rather win now, than later…

    now lets fast forward to the end of the year, we are on cusp of top 8 pick… we trot out our bottom 5 players for 35 minutes a night and they play in crunch time… they arent playing like superstars but the team stays afloat throughout a few games… they end up winning the last 3 games of the year, somehow… Is this anti-tank? i know that all the pro-tankers would be furious… at that point, i would be a little taken back by such wins (and i’m an anti-tanker)… just curious to what depths we go to preserve the tank… ?

    DRed brought that up recently, and it’s a good point, in the sense that this particular team is weird, since there really isn’t a “bad” group of players here. They all are kind of equally mediocre. But I guess play Sasha a lot of minutes? 🙂

    In all seriousness, the way to “tank” is to trade all the veterans who have no purpose on the team (Lee, KOQ, Kuz) for as much value as possible and then play the guys you get on 10-day contracts to play at the end and rest any of your decent players for the last couple of games once you’ve established how many losses you need for spot X in the draft.

    I think we’re just gonna be stuck debating the merits of drafting De’Arron Fox in June. We’re gonna miss on the other 4 PGs and Luke Kennard will be a Spur somehow.

    Oh sure, don’t get me wrong, I’m more hopeful than I have been in quite a while, which is to say that I’m not really hopeful at all. So yes, that scenario is very likely. But hey, there’s at least sort of kind of a chance (but not really)!

    There’s plenty of terrific young players out there this year and Phil (with Clarence Gaines) will find them.

    For me, the Porzingis injury has really put a gigantic damper on things. Anything would have been tolerable as long as he was healthy and playing well.

    The goal of the Knicks should be to move the bad value contracts for good/fair value contracts, nothing more and nothing less. That means, you try to get rid of Melo, Rose, and Noah. Everyone else on the team is either a good or fair value contract and young enough to be either productive for awhile or moved at a later date. There’s not much point in rushing to move any of them now. It would be a backwards step even if it netted us a better pick this year. It’s not that easy to get guys on attractive contracts and we have few of them.

    For me, the Porzingis injury has really put a gigantic damper on things. Anything would have been tolerable as long as he was healthy and playing well.

    The injury impacted him in a few games, but imo he’s been declining for awhile now. IMO he’s playing more like Bargnani than Nowitski these days.

    He looks terrible in the post at times.

    He doesn’t rebound well.

    He gets beat defensively on the perimeter by either giving up too much space or getting blown by when he stays close.

    He looks lost and unsure of himself most of the time on offense. If you give him the ball he does nothing but shoot or quickly give it to someone else.

    He has basically been reduced to a spot up 3 point shooter that takes too many bad shots, can’t rebound well for his size & position, and has exploitable weaknesses on defense. This is coming from a guy that was mildly skeptical to begin with (thinking he might turn to be just like this), but was then convinced I was ridiculously wrong. Now I’m not so sure again.

    Strat, what makes you think Lee is on a good contract? He’s basically been a slightly better version of Arron Afflalo. I’d look to trade him ASAP, it’s not likely his value appreciates from here.

    Of the guys who I think they might actually be able to trade, Lee is my #1 “get him out while they can” contract. They could actually get value for him now, and that won’t be the case for long. Lee’s not awful, but nor is he particularly good, and he’s clearly on the decline, he’s signed for three more years and the team is not going anywhere. He makes no sense on this team. I could see a case for keeping KOQ or Kuz (but I’d still deal both), but not for Lee.

    Strat, what makes you think Lee is on a good contract? He’s basically been a slightly better version of Arron Afflalo. I’d look to trade him ASAP, it’s not likely his value appreciates from here.

    I agree with your evaluation of Lee. I think he’s been a mild upgrade over Afflalo, but I think he has way more left in the tank than AA. I think his contract is fair and we would have no trouble trading him if we wanted.

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