Knicks Morning News (2016.07.03)

  • [New York Times] AP Sources: Mavs Plan Max Offer Sheet for Warriors’ Barnes (Sun, 03 Jul 2016 03:57:38 GMT)

    The Mavericks have informed representatives of Golden State’s Harrison Barnes that they intend to sign the restricted free agent to an offer sheet for a four-year, $95 million contract, two people with knowledge of Dallas’ plans said Saturday.

  • [New York Times] Summer League Action for NBA Teams Opens in Orlando (Sun, 03 Jul 2016 01:54:33 GMT)

    While the focus was on business, there was some basketball Saturday.

  • 212 replies on “Knicks Morning News (2016.07.03)”

    Jesus, this offseason has been a disaster. I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop where we sign Rose to an extension. This team just fucking kills me year in and year out.

    This team only kills you because you let it.

    How have the Knicks let you down this time? Say more, please.

    In other news, here is a timely message from the world of pro wrestling to all the boys and girls here:

    AWWW YEAH, KNICKERBLOGGER DOT NET! DON’T YOU DARE BE SOUR! CLAP FOR YOUR SUDDENLY POTENTIALLY WATCHABLE NEW YORK KNICKS… AND FEEL THE POWER!

    IT’S A NEW DAY, YES IT IS!

    Embrace the Power of Positivity, friends.

    I just need to know what Ja Rule thinks about the Knicks. I can’t have an opinion until Ja Rule and Stephen A Smith tell me what to think.

    To all those that liked the Rose trade at the time, how would you have felt about giving up Lopez/Grant for: Rose/Mozgov (16m/yr), Rose/Mahinmi (16m/yr), Rose/Biyombo (18m/yr), Rose/Howard (22m/yr)? Wasn’t the refrain at the time something like…hey no problem replacing Lopez? But it’s moot since Noah was always Phil’s main and only target and Rose/Noah was a fait accompli at time of Rose deal. If you believe an amnesty clause in new CBA is a near certainty, then Rose/Noah doesn’t look so bad though we may have 3 amnesty candidates in a couple of years.

    While I don’t feel so bad about the result as I did at the time of the Rose deal, I would have felt much better if Phil had not needlessly included Grant in the deal. Chicago was not walking away from a Rose–Lopez/Calderon swap. Bulls knew Rose/Noah was Jax’s end game and judged he wouldn’t let Grant hold up his grand “win-now” vision plus had time pressure to avoid 3m trade kicker affecting cap. I also wish he had put in a large bid for Johnson or Crabbe and then just paid Lance T 9-10m if that failed. This would have shown that Phil at least gave a tinker’s damn about the future.

    In a parallel universe, Phil gave Melo a megamax and partial NTC which allowed Knicks to trade him to Lakers or Clippers. We draft KP and the landscape changes. We flip Melo this summer for Russell and Randle (maybe even had chance at Melo-#2 swap). I think fans would stomach a rebuild but I also believe that they want a star or budding star which we would have had in KP.

    @5 Your reasoning is based on a faulty assumption… no one liked the Rose trade.

    All joking a salad, yes, it is bizarre how Phil is yet another Knicks GM that negotiates against themselves as doesn’t fight for that extra inch in trade or contract negotiations. If Masai Ujiri comes over too, will he also be infected by this mysterious affliction (it’s Dolan isn’t it)

    Your reasoning is based on a faulty assumption… no one liked the Rose trade.

    er and Z-man liked it, some were neutral claiming no big deal. But yeah, I should have included the word “neutral” above.

    If Masai Ujiri comes over too, will he also be infected by this mysterious affliction

    The Denver GM who followed Ujiri is quietly establishing himself as the best GM in the league. Denver/Minnesota/GSW are the best-managed franchises at the moment.

    You can see the outline of Phil’s plan here. Assuming we can roll Rose’s salary slot into an actual star player next summer (Westbrook and Paul would count, both serious longshots), and if Noah stays healthy and ages gracefully (big if), and if Melo stays healty and ages gracefully (medium sized if) and if Porzingis develops nicely (small if, knock on wood) you can see the core of a really good team starting next summer. That’s a lot of ifs in that sentence, and it would be a really good team with a relatively short window but as far as I can tell, that’s the plan.

    The most important thing in my opinion is to not throw good money after bad if the plan fails. If we’re hanging around .500 after a healthy first half this year do not trade our 1st rounder for a temporary improvement. If we miss out on Paul and Westbrook next summer, do not max Rose just to do something. If Noah or Melo deteriorate do not trade them for other struggling guys on longer deals.

    If we keep our eyes on the prize (KP’s prime) we can maybe pseudo-contend here at the tail-end of Melo’s prime without costing ourselves too much moving forward. It’s not what I would have done, but exeuted correctly there’s no reason it has to be a disaster. It’s the executing it correctly part (particularly if Phil is in LA after this year) that terrifies me.

    Re-posting from last thread:

    I don’t think it is useful to psychoanalyze fellow posters on the merits of being optimistic or pessimistic about the Knicks. Varying opinions makes for great debate.

    I DO think that it is great to point out logical flaws, baseless speculation and self-serving hyperbole. Frankly (no pun intended Frank or Frank O.) there is plenty on both sides.

    I have no problem with Phil’s choice to do a “modified rebuild.”

    Melo: Phil has operated as if Melo is a superstar in the twilight of his prime. Many here don’t agree with Phil’s perception and can back it up with advanced stats. I’m in the middle…I think Melo is better than the skeptics say and not as good as his supporters think. His current deal (around 26% of the cap) is at the high end of his value, and will settle into the middle in the next 2 years (or he can opt out of year 5.) Bottom line: he’s here and any handwringing about it is moot.

    Zinger: All arguments against Phil are watered down by his drafting of this unicorn. KP in and of himself gives us reason for optimism beyond anyone without the initials KAT. Phil deserves 100% of the credit for that. Skeptics will disagree.

    Rest of team: Rose is on a 1-year deal and is healthy and hungry. Noah is better than Lopez and will be for the length of his contract. Neither are cap-killers. Lee is a market value serviceable player who fills a glaring need. Everyone else is TBD.

    In 4 years, this will be a totally different team except for KP, without the need for a fire sale or dealing picks out of win now desperation. Nothing like prior win-now situations.

    (Reply to @8)

    Yes but we could have this same plan without the Rose trade. In fact we probably could have flipped Rolo straight up for Beverley given what Houston has done and its remaining cap situation, and had the same plan plus a future asset and also been better positioned this year to boot.

    I equally hate both the Rose and Noah moves. Rose because it is an example of us not properly valuing our assets with both Lopez and Grant. Noah because we just paid $5 million more for a center that is injury plagued and is not appreciably better than Lopez.

    More importantly the moves by Phil make this at best a mediocre team, maybe 40 wins (without any injuries to key players). There is no long term hope attached with any of these moves and certainly no championships in the foreseeable future.

    If/when Masai Ujiri takes the job in New York he won’t be bidding against himself. He’ll instead be fleecing Sacramento or Jim Buss, and those guys will bid against themselves.

    As far as I’m concerned, the way the point guard market shaped up, it was a half savvy move to trade for Rose. We would have been stuck giving Rondo $20M AAV or we would have overpaid a wing player. Lee at $12M AAV and Noah at $18M AAV both seem like fair deals. Lopez clearly looks like a steal in this market, but that could have been negated by 4 year, $81 million deal for Rajon Rondo or the $72M for Evan Turner.

    The Rose punt makes sense. Maybe we should have kept Jerian Grant and all 22 of his 3 point shooting percentage, but Forman would have been buried alive if he didn’t get back youth. Next year is a better market for PGs, and I think Chris Paul is a lock to come to NY barring a D Rose mega max.

    Kristaps:

    “I’m young, but we don’t have ten years to win a championship ”

    He gets it.

    “er and Z-man liked it, some were neutral claiming no big deal. But yeah, I should have included the word “neutral” above.”

    Not true. I didn’t “like” the deal, but I am OK with the strategy. I had said that Phil’s weakness is as a negotiator, not as a strategist. I think what you said here is totally reasonable:

    “While I don’t feel so bad about the result as I did at the time of the Rose deal, I would have felt much better if Phil had not needlessly included Grant in the deal. Chicago was not walking away from a Rose–Lopez/Calderon swap. “

    I would have liked the Rose deal way more if Phil could have avoided giving up Grant, much like Boston refused to give up Rondo in the Big 3 deals. Obviously if Grant develops, I’ll feel even worse. If you check back, I said the same thing re: the Melo deal w/ Denver…I felt we gave up 2 pieces too many.

    But that’s different than not liking the strategy behind the trade on its face. Or than thinking that Rose and Noah are washed up at ages 27 and 31, respectively; I think they will both play better than their contracts next year, and that Noah will outperform his contract for most, if not all, of his deal.

    I would have been much more skeptical if we had given up a #1 pick, or signed the likes of Mike Conley or Dwight Howard to a max deal.

    I would have liked the Rose deal way more if Phil could have avoided giving up Grant

    Didn’t you call Holiday/2nd round pick for Grant a wash? And I don’t know how you could like the strategy and be meh about the Rose trade. Flipping Lopez for Beverley or Rubio in a 3-way is a very different strategy than trading Lopez for Rose.

    2012 vs. 2016
    Melo=Melo
    KP=STAT
    Noah=Chandler
    Rose=Kidd
    Lee=JR
    Gallo=Felton
    Lance(?)=Shump
    KOQ=Camby
    WillyH=Sheed/Kurt/KMart
    ???= Prigs, Novak, Cope
    Cap space=hopelessly capped out
    all draft picks=minimum # of draft picks

    Didn’t you call Holiday/2nd round pick for Grant a wash?

    On paper, it’s a wash. However, if we made the same deal w/o that part, the return for RoLo is greater. I think the problem with the deal is that we could have gotten more for RoLo, not for Grant. But again, that’s about Phil’s negotiating skill, not the strategy. Even if he felt that keeping Grant was less important than executing the strategy, he should have held out longer. But I don’t he got “fleeced” like many here think. Grant has potential but it is very likely he is a career backup.

    I also said that Phil wisely concluded that getting an above average big and a SG on reasonable deals was easier than getting an above average PG on a reasonable deal. That has been borne out, no?

    What makes you think that Rubio or Beverley were available for RoLo, w/o including anything else? Even so, I’d be meh on those two. At his current level of health, Rose is way better as a 1-year option, and at worst the signing doesn’t shut the door on Westbrook or CP3 for next year (although the latter would fall into the category of aging vet with questionable knees).

    @16 I don’t think Melo 2012 = Melo 2016.
    Instead I think it is more likely Melo 2012 > Melo 2016.

    You think Rose will play better than his $22M contract next year? I wish I had your confidence. I think Rose will get us 21 points 4 rebounds and 7 assists per 36 on a TS% around .520. That’s worth like $12M. In order for Rose to outperform his $22M he’ll have to put up an efficiency around .560/.520 TS/eFG. If Rose and Noah play better than their contracts we’re going to win 57 games next year.

    @7 Zanzibar

    OK, thanks for clarifying. A calculated risk on Noah’s health has a lot more upside than the alternative options you presented. Looks like Noah was Phil’s target all along. I’d have been OK with Mahinmi. Maybe Biyombo, but he’s getting paid for his performance in one playoffs run. Uncomfortably similar to a Jerome James scenario, except Biyombo has better work ethic. Noah brings a playmaking dimension to the offense that Lopez does not. He is also a better rebounder (though worse finisher) and equal if not better screen setter. His athleticism is declining but he seems more mobile than Lopez at the moment. We’ll see.

    @14 Z-Man

    Phil as strategist GM, not negotiator GM is a good way of putting it. (And not quant GM either, to the lamentations of many on Knickerblogger.)

    I also feel like Phil could have potentially turned the screws on Chicago to get one more asset out of the Rose deal. In the end it looks like he’s decided Grant is no Rondo. (Woof, Rondo’s rookie season does not have a pretty stat line.) Grant is 24 and his development may be limited to changing offensive systems. Rondo was 20-21 at the time of the Big 3 trade. Any trends on 24 year old PGs learning to shoot?

    I think Lopez was available for Oladipo, Sabonis, and Ilyasova if that’s what Serge Ibaka pulled. Anything else is unlikely, and I really don’t want Patrick Beverley anyway.

    @20: $21 mill in 2016-17=$13 mill in 2012-13. In terms of % of cap, yes, I think Rose will outperform his contract.

    @20 Massive

    Wow, when you put those estimates down into numbers that’s kind of exciting. Looking forward to halfway decent guard play and dribble drives that defenses actually will respect. I felt so sorry for Grant once teams started going under screens and daring him to shoot.

    @22 what? lol I can assure you Lopez was not available for oladipo sabonis and ilyasova….

    Someone please help me understand why everyone here loves J. Grant so much. From watching him last year, I don’t understand the love affair.

    The Knicks are watchable again; dare I say rootable again. That’s what matters. It’s not our money. Not our team. Dolan, even in his bafoonery,has made the Knicks worth 3 billion.
    A championship in our lifetime would be nice but there was always a Jordan and now a LeBron. Enjoy the ride fellas.
    Rootable! I’ll be watching.

    Robin Lopez is better than Serge Ibaka by basically every metric out there. If Ibaka netted that catch, I think we could have landed the same package. Marco Belinelli landed a 1st rounder. So did Thad Young. Robin Lopez was worth more than Derrick Rose’s current value.

    @22

    I honestly don’t know if the Magic picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue. Ibaka has that OKC Big 3 aura, whether commensurate to his actual value or not. But let me vent: What the hell? That is a king’s ransom they gave up for someone who lost his spot to Steven Adams when the playoffs came around. If I’m going to give up an equivalent haul of Oladipo + Sabonis for a big man — it better not be someone who shrank into a floor spreader/cutter role in the WCF when KD, Russ, and Adams were blowing up the fireworks factory. Headscratcher of a decision to build around Ibaka. Also, there is a very entertaining conspiracy theory that he is actually 34 years old.

    @22 massive

    Also, while we have a better idea of Lopez’s true value on the court, it just is what it is that he doesn’t have the star reputation around the league to match. He doesn’t have the flashy shot blocking or the 3 point range, he’s never been on the DPOY ballot. He’s never gone for stat stuffing, bless him. A true star in his role (cf. Tristan Thompson.)

    So however awesome he is, he is not the kind of player that other GMs get swindled for.

    CrateCrate, Grant fell down an awful lot so people here felt sorry for him but loved that he always got up afterwards.

    I’m sorry but for better or for worse, NBA GMs don’t live and die by statistical analysis. Serge Ibaka is perceived as a star defensive player with a growing offensive game. Robin Lopez is perceived as a journeyman role player. Whether or not they are of equal value on the court, they are not fetching the same haul in a trade.

    I do agree though that we could’ve gotten a 1st for Lopez.

    “You think Rose will play better than his $22M contract next year? I wish I had your confidence. I think Rose will get us 21 points 4 rebounds and 7 assists per 36 on a TS% around .520. That’s worth like $12M.”

    21 points, 4 rebounds and 7 assists is worth like $12M? Austin Rivers just got 3/$35M. When has he put up those numbers?

    @26 CrateCrate

    People are salty about the process of the decision to trade Grant — that he was a throw-in to the Rose deal. I was disappointed too, because Grant was one of NY’s few tradable assets going into the offseason. (Lopez and KOQ’s contract were the others.)

    With the benefit of a few days of separation to think about it more clearly, though, just because Grant was one of the Knicks’ tradable assets didn’t mean that other teams really cared.

    Here’s what he had going for himself: Cost-controlled player. Backup point guard. Can run pick and roll. Good in transition. Had potential for things to go differently playing under Hornacek. He had a bunch of question marks: No NBA-level jumper. Not that young and little upside to dramatically improve (24 years old.)

    Hey, we just got a more than competent, durable, defensive minded, team oriented, three ball making SG for just over 12% of our cap space. Thanks, Phil!

    Was the Teague deal before or after the rose deal because I would have taken Teague over Rose.
    I also wold have been cool with keeping Lopez and using the money to go after two wing players and save the PG spot for next year’s draft/FA. Then again they could have waited and see who need to clear cap space and pick up some players and picks.

    Grant maybe a career back up but I am not sure Rose and Grant’s production will look different if Grant is given time next year. Plus, you need cheap back ups regardless so as long as he is a rotation level player it would be goo in my book.

    @31 reub

    Grant fell down an awful lot so people here felt sorry for him but loved that he always got up afterwards.

    he was just a little bug that tried really hard

    @36 yellowboy90

    Pass on Teague. Your next franchise point guard is not a guy who lost his spot to Dennis Schroeder. He would have wanted a long term contract, and giving big money to boring, league average players like Teague is how franchises get albatrossed. At least Rose is one year rental and he has to prove himself to the rest of the league.

    Any trends on 24 year old PGs learning to shoot?

    Grant is not Wroten. Grant was a decent shooter in college. Some draft sites even listed it as a strength. Some said he was inconsistent from 3. Nobody at the time claimed he was a poor shooter. Unlike Mudiay, his draft video showed him knocking down all his 3s, the shots clean through the net. His shooting improved over the course of the season. This is exactly the type of player you don’t abandon after one season because there is reason to believe factors other than ability account for his terrible shooting (rookie 1, inconsistent minutes, no flow in unfamiliar system).

    Lopez has a couple of real and well-known flaws. He is slow for an uptempo system and a god-awful perimeter defender in the high PnR which everybody runs these days. There’s not a single GM in the league that would consider RoLo to be the catch that Ibaka is. Ibaka is younger, more versatile, more mobile, and healthy. He led the league in blocks for 4 straight years and was in the top 3 in block% 5 years in a row. He has been as high as 6th in the league in TS% and averaged a TS% of .631 in his last 35 playoff games!!!

    Here’s their head-to-head stats:
    http://bkref.com/tiny/3aPGa

    Ibaka is better by virtually every measure, and that’s including an off year last year. I don’t see how you can think that Lopez has anywhere near the trade value of Ibaka.

    What does “we could have gotten a 1st for Lopez” mean? A top-3 pick in a great draft class? A #25-30 pick in a weak draft class?

    @36 yellowboy90

    Pass on Teague. Your next franchise point guard is not a guy who lost his spot to Dennis Schroeder. He would have wanted a long term contract, and giving big money to boring, league average players like Teague is how franchises get albatrossed. At least Rose is one year rental and he has to prove himself to the rest of the league.

    Teague would be a one year rental and would cost $11m+ less than Rose. Jeff was playing through injury and still had a very good year. Rose can be fully healthy next year and not match Teague’s production he had last year playing hurt. So how can you not be willing to take a risk on a better player for less money?

    Ibaka is better by virtually every measure, and that’s including an off year last year. I don’t see how you can think that Lopez has anywhere near the trade value of Ibaka.

    Well, that off year happened. Lopez was better than Ibaka last year. He’s also under contract for three more years. Ibaka is a free agent after this season. Lopez is a pretty good starter in his prime getting paid like a backup for the next 3 years. Ibaka just finished his 4th straight year of declining play and is due for a payday.

    Trey Burke traded for a 2021 second rounder.

    That may seem like shitty value for Utah right now, but I heard that there are dozens of 14 year old Mormons that can straight up ball, and all it takes is for one to slip into the 2nd round five years from now.

    @41 yes, we probably could’ve gotten a pick at least equal to the one Charlotte gave up for Marco bellinelli. Not passing a value judgement on the Lopez/rose deal (that’s been beaten to death on both sides), just stating the truth.

    @20 — 21/7/4 on .520 TS is very close to his MVP numbers. A 27 year old pg putting up those numbers is easily getting 25 million per year for 4-5 years in today’s market. I would be ecstatic if he put up those numbers.

    When you see how good this team is going to be all of you naysayers won’t know what to complain about. How about the weather?

    Nets offering Tyler Johnson 4/50. That’s 18 and 19 million over the last 2 years

    Woof. Glad we aren’t the ones making that offer. Makes me afraid someone might offer similar to Galloway.

    Disagree — I think that’s a decent risk for the Nets tho the 4th yr option seems unnecessary; don’t think Miami matches that given out year cap hits. Chances are high that 12-13m cap hit in 2019-20 for TJ will be more productive than the same for Courtney Lee.

    @20 — 21/7/4 on .520 TS is very close to his MVP numbers. A 27 year old pg putting up those numbers is easily getting 25 million per year for 4-5 years in today’s market. I would be ecstatic if he put up those numbers.

    Why? That would put his TS% between the #28 Pistons and the #29 Sixers in shooting efficiency.

    Why would we ever want a player who shoots that poorly that often?

    I just need to know what Ja Rule thinks about the Knicks

    *Dave Chappelle voice*
    WHERE IS JA??

    lol

    Yeah, why would we ever want a player on a one-year flyer playing like an MVP candidate?

    Why? That would put his TS% between the #28 Pistons and the #29 Sixers in shooting efficiency.

    Why would we ever want a player who shoots that poorly that often?

    Obviously so we can max him til he’s 33.

    Yeah, why would we ever want a player on a one-year flyer playing like an MVP candidate?

    Those are Jrue Holiday numbers. That’s okay, but do you think Jrue Holiday deserved MVP votes last year?

    Yeah, Jowles, I know of another overpaid, overated, injury-prone bum who, despite a career TS% of .516 and a career WS48 of .109, deluded the entire world into thinking that he was one of the greatest PGs who ever lived and who became a first ballot HOFer because he rode the coattails of others to two NBA championships and two close calls during maybe the best stretch of NBA basketball ever. Why would we want a year of that?

    Cole Train $$$$

    Cole Aldrich has landed a three-year, $22 million deal with the Timberwolves, league sources say

    @NYPost_Berman
    #Knicks have looked into signing Randy Foye as backup PG but now need to clear a little more cap space

    Oh hell yeah!

    What exactly is the state of the Knicks salary cap now? How can they even clear space? Trade Porzingis for a 2021 second rounder?

    The guy the Nets got from the Spurs obviously knows what he’s doing and it’s annoying

    So, what do we have left? $5M for a FA, plus the exception, plus the ability to match Galloway and Thomas?

    My main concern is not the injury risk of Rose / Noah……it’s that we have not yet targeted backups that could fill in for 15 – 20 + games if needed. I think the cheap $$ guys we pick up will be very important. Biggest need now I think is a 3rd guard, and Jack would be a nice fit.

    So, you are asking why I would be happy if a guy who many people think is going to stink put up numbers that are close to the numbers he put up when he was the league MVP (and even his harshest critics would concede had a very good year)? I don’t know. Maybe I’m not a very smart guy.

    Rose is not playing at an MVP level next year even in a reasonable best case. Remember, his supposed late season improvement in 15-16 when his TS% went above 50% was probably illusory. His shooting at the rim actually did not improve at all (from very poor sub 50% levels) in the second half. His FTA rate likewise did not improve in the second half (it actually declined to only 2.8 / 36 ). What improved was he shot 38% from 3 on a very small sample. That’s it. But Rose is a terrible career 3 point shooter and if he needs to shoot 38% from 3 to get over 50% TS over a full season, it ain’t happening. He dunked the basketball exactly one time after New Year’s. In his MVP year, he dunked the ball 11 times just in the playoffs. The idea that he’s going to revert to anywhere near 6.6 FTA/36 and 61% when he was really good smells like a complete fairy tale.

    Now that Cole is accounted for the only free agency question left is who dares approach the Boban head on.

    We could sign Chalmers for cheap and hope he heals. Even if he helps us down the line for the second half of the season and the playoffs.

    OK..so the Wizards copped Trey Burke for a 2021 2nd rounder??? Hindsight is 20/20, but Phil maybe should have gone after him. Young, still on his rookie deal, plays a position of need, and for a 2nd rounder 5 years from now? He’s worth at least a flier for that price, no?

    So, what do we have left? $5M for a FA, plus the exception, plus the ability to match Galloway and Thomas?

    Depending on how the Lee and Noah deals are structured, they might have $5 million left. They probably have less. But yes, beyond that, they have the room exception (roughly $3 million) plus the ability to re-sign Galloway and Thomas for roughly $6 million annually each.

    Here, by the way, is where things get really, really tricky. In the sense that if you give Galloway and Thomas combined roughly $12 million a year on multi-year deals, then next season, if the cap goes up $14 million, when you factor in Porzingis’ raise, Melo’s raise, possibly Noah and Lee raises (all depends on how their contracts are structured) and the Knicks’ first rounder, the Knicks will likely only have around $24 million (at most) to offer a “star” player, when the max for said star players will be $30 million for players in year 7-9 (for Westbrook) and $35 million for players in year 10-up (for Paul).

    Utah still has 4 PG’s though. Phil should inquire about them.

    I’m happy with C.Lee, but think I would have preferred Tyler Johnson who we could have started at SG but would have been able to backup D.Rose.

    Also Nicholson at 4/24 seem like a nice get for WAS

    Trey Burke is small and sucks

    I don’t think Burke is that bad. When the Jazz actually gave him minutes as a rookie, he didn’t shoot well, but he put up roughly 13 ppg/6apg/3rpg. So he would be a serviceable and cheap backup at a time where it looks like FA cash is gone for the Knicks. I’m not a huge fan of Burke, but I think he would have been ok as a Knick.

    @39 Zanzibar

    Here are Jerian Grant’s college 3PT% stats:
    35, 34.4, 40.8, 31.6.

    I was curious as to what Grant’s improvement from 3 looked like across the season. This is what I found:
    In the last 21 games of the season, (March & April), he shot 12/42 from 3. That’s 28.6%. He finished at 22% on the season.

    I don’t see this late season improvement you’re talking about.

    So what we’re left to go on is his college numbers with a shortened 3 point line, with a strange decline his senior year. And his good performance at his draft workout, where he out-shot Emmanuel Mudiay. I want to believe, but I don’t have much to go on.

    Maybe he improves, maybe he doesn’t. He hasn’t shown anything so far. I didn’t like giving him up either. But perhaps Phil looked at Grant’s age and his lack of improvement over the season, and decided that Justin Holiday, a 2nd round pick, and dumping Calderon’s contract was a better use of Grant and his rookie contract than betting on his improvement. If we put on our Triangular goggles, Phil successfully nabbed a 1st round draft pick out of thin air, and used it to draft a 6’5 college senior PG known for his poise and ability to run an offense. That seems like attributes he likes. Now I don’t think that Grant was set up to succeed this season, but whatever Phil saw, he wasn’t impressed. He decided that Holiday, an older 3 & D wing, was what he wanted rather than a big PG that can’t yet shoot. Goodbye, Grant.

    @42 yellowboy90

    Teague is not the same situation as rose. The Pacers acquired him with the idea of immediately negotiating a contract extension with him. They plan to lock him up. It is not a one year “show me” flier like Rose. Do you want to to get stuck with Jeff Teague for 4 years/$60M?

    Brian…..agreed, but you can probably shed O’Quinn next summer and gain back 4.5M, right? or was that already in your math?

    And…..can we only go over the cap to resign galloway and thomas if someone else makes an offer? Can you front load their deals, pay them more this year than next to ease the hit next year?

    and where the hell is lou amondson?

    @75 DRed

    But he a ROUGH RYDER tho

    Y’all must’ve forgot how at Michigan he took the BIG SHOTS and wasn’t afraid of ANYTHING.

    And…..can we only go over the cap to resign galloway and thomas if someone else makes an offer? Can you front load their deals, pay them more this year than next to ease the hit next year?

    No, they can exceed the cap for both of them right now up until the mid-level. In fact, Thomas is an unrestricted free agents, so there is no offer sheet involved with him at all. They can front load the deals a bit, but only up to the mid-level in Year 1, so probably not.

    We could sign Chalmers for cheap and hope he heals.

    Or we could sign him for expensive and hope he heals. (Thanks Phil!)

    so the Wizards copped Trey Burke for a 2021 2nd rounder??? Hindsight is 20/20, but Phil maybe should have gone after him…

    Burke is a point guard, which the Knicks don’t have many of, that is true. But that 2021 pick comes when our new contracts are set to expire… We really need to start looking at life after the Noah/Lee/Rose/Foye dynasty. What kind of a franchise do we want to leave our kids?

    We really need to start looking at life after the Noah/Lee/Rose/Foye dynasty. What kind of a franchise do we want to leave our kids?

    I laughed stupid hard lol. I really hope Foye isn’t a target though. He’s much better as a SG IMO, and he and Galloway might be a decent tandem on that 2nd unit. But I was kinda lookin forward to Holiday bein the primary wing reserve. Foye does bring more ball handling capability, but I think it’s too late for Foye. Maybe Phil’s trying to replicate the 54 win season but with regular vets and not heady vets and lockere room leaders?

    LOL..remember when Foye came out of college and folks were comparing him to D Wade??

    I’d wait until I could find guys like Lin, Novak, Cope and Gallo for free. The waiver wire will be busy soon.

    TS%
    Rose .479
    Burke .507

    WS48
    Rose .009
    Burke .074

    eFG%
    Rose .448
    Burke .483

    AST%
    Rose 25.5
    Burke 19.7

    TOV%
    Rose 13.4
    Burke 10.7

    PER
    Rose 13.5
    Burke 14.0

    WP48
    Rose -.055
    Burke -.009

    Age
    Rose 27
    Burke 23

    Knee Surgeries
    Rose 3
    Burke 0

    We’re only into our 2nd summer league game but Marvelle Harris looks pretty good. If he continues we should sign him I think

    Soulman Diabetes (I can’t be the only one who thought that was his name for a sec lol) is getting some run there today though

    I don’t see this late season improvement you’re talking about.

    I looked at his 3FG% splits in Bref: He shot about 15% in first 4 months and 30% in last 3 months. I’m too lazy to check his splits on medium and long 2s but I think he improved there as well. I think 35% college 3FG average is considered decent because many college 1 and 2s, especially team stars, shoot more off the dribble from 3 versus more spot-up in NBA.

    Nets offering Tyler Johnson 4/50. That’s 18 and 19 million over the last 2 years

    I’ll be sooo depressed if Riley doesn’t match since that is exactly what I wanted Phil to do. How about this for a balance of youth and vets, win-now versus future:

    1: Rose/Grant
    2: Johnson/Gallo
    3: Melo/Room exception or maybe LT
    4: KP/Willy
    5: Noah/KOQ

    I really hope Miami matches, because yeah, I’d hate to think Johnson was actually available (I was working under the presumption that he was not).

    Jerian Grant, pre-All Star break (51 games): .435 TS%
    Jerian Grant, post-All Star break (25 games): .548 TS%

    LOL..remember when Foye came out of college and folks were comparing him to D Wade??

    LOL… Remember when the Wolves traded down to draft Foye, but forgot to pick up any assets in the process. They traded the #6 pick (Brandon Roy) for him straight up.

    Seems like there’s a lot of LOLing at Foye’s expense. Maybe Phil can give us something more to LOL about…

    Watching our summer league team makes me wanna try masochism.

    @100
    Sustainable improvement, though? I would have liked to see Grant get a shot in Hornacek’s offense. But we’ll never find out. It’s a moot point. Phil wanted Justin Holiday instead.

    @104 [Borat voice] VERY NICE! I LIKE YOU.

    Ronnie Baker looks like a “homeless man’s Beno Udrih”…

    So the Kings have now signed Afflalo and Temple. Where does that leave Seth Curry?

    So I guess Dwight Powell is the last poison pill candidate left outside of Gallo

    I wish we had a guy who falls down a lot. Another who shoots foul shots sideways. And a third who says ole instead of playing defense.

    Those were the days!

    Labeyrie looks terrible. Baker, Harris and Plumlee have a slight pulse.

    Baker, Plumlee,Harris and Tokoto may have a chance to play with the Knicks.
    The Westchester Knicks of course.

    Labeyrie finished the game nicely with 2 alley oop dunks but he plays angry/dirty and i don’t see him in the nba…
    Unless he makes a quadrable double in the next game.

    Thanassis looks like Scottie Pippen compared to this year’s summer league team…

    Yeah they should just forget about this year’s SL team. Everybody sucks.

    EDIT: Maybe the Plumlee kid has a shot.

    What are the rules on signing dudes from other clubs summer league squads?

    Baker was by far our best player out there today. He has court sense but needs guys who can shoot to distribute to. His defense is excellent and he plays hard. He gets to the foul line and plays with his head up while not engaging in hero ball. He cuts well without the ball too. If his shot was falling more we’d be raving about him. If his shot isn’t falling he won’t make it.

    What are the rules on signing dudes from other clubs summer league squads?

    you gotta make the signing into a prom-invitation-viral-video type deal or they’ll say no

    Yeah, but have you seen my reel? Who could say no to a flash mob dancing and a guy riding a unicycle holding a sign that says, “Ron Baker, will you be our 12th man?”

    GDI Jowles we need guys on other teams and I need people who pay attention to detail

    What are the rules on signing dudes from other clubs summer league squads?

    There are no rules. Everyone, except for guys already under contract with an NBA team, are free agents.

    Wait, I thought Ron Baker was just doing us a solid before heading off to his “real” team, the Guangdong Tigers?

    What salary would you guys give for a player who put up these numbers?:

    42.3 PPG

    .45 TS%

    -25.4 BPM

    -0.040 WS/48

    Just wondering if there’s a point where high PPG doesn’t cause people’s brains to turn off.

    this is the lineup from two short seasons ago

    Lol

    Phil built that god awful team…

    But does he space the floor?

    He shoots exclusively 360° fadeaways from 35 feet. I think that’s evidence that if we can just get him to work on his shot selection, he could be an incredible player.

    He also spends all defensive possessions practicing his patented shot, but I think we can break him of that habit as well no problem.

    He also spends all defensive possessions practicing his patented shot, but I think we can break him of that habit as well no problem.

    He’s 25, with only 6 years in the league doing this. There’s plenty of time for him to develop a better defensive approach!

    He’ll be incredible with a good coach and better options around him to shoulder the offensive burden.

    Seth Curry unrestricted now. Would be a good use of our remaining $5m but I think someone will probably pay a bit more.

    I think he’d be a good fit for the Jeremy Lin role in Charlotte now they lost both him and LeeSanity

    Clippers giving Jamal Crawford plus Austin Rivers $78m over 3 years is actually the dumbest free agency move yet. This should help our CP3 chances.

    News Flash!

    That’s hilarious.

    Update: Hoiberg just tweeted congrats to David Lee and wished him well upon his return to Knicks.

    Bulls now trolling Jimmy Butler by finally freeing him from Rose then having Rondo hide in the celebration cake

    Rondo, Valentine, Butler, Gibson, and Lopez. Those guys might be better than us, too.

    Wait, never mind. Rondo is going to destroy Fred Holberg and he might have a fist fight with Jimmy Butler.

    David Lee actually wouldn’t be an awful use of the room exception, although I would imagine that they’d prefer to get a back-up point through the room.

    By the way, Crawford staying in Los Angeles for 3 years/$42 million. Yee-ikes.

    Begley:
    The Knicks are looking to fill out their bench and one position of need is backup guard. One player on the club’s list of guards, according to league sources, is Tim Frazier.

    Yeah when you look at all the guys we DIDN’T sign – Rondo, Al Jefferson, Chandler Parsons, Deng, Afflalo, Ryan Anderson, Jamal Crawford – kinda makes me feel better!
    Noah I’m ok with, but I can’t see Rose working, honestly… And maybe that’s good.
    Best case scenario is probably him putting up a -0.050 WS48 over 17 games and then getting hurt so that we don’t resign him to a much worse contract next year.

    @148 and in that case it would be great to have Lord Seth of House Curry to be the back up point guard.

    Tim Frazier looks good though. A career AST% of 34.8 and he got it as high as 40.8% most recently in New Orleans. He played around 30 minutes a night for the Pelicans last season and gave them 13.1 points, 7.5 assists, and 4.4 rebounds a game. I would not mind him at all.

    This thread has turned truly hilarious. The last 30 posts or so may be some of knickerblogger’s best work!

    David Lee actually wouldn’t be an awful use of the room exception, although I would imagine that they’d prefer to get a back-up point through the room.

    Agree, Brian. Funny thing is, David Lee was a real difference-maker in the 2015 finals, and no one can seem to find a use for him. Cripes, the guy is only 33 and has never put up a WS48 lower than .110 (last 4 years: .150, .160, .168, .161).

    Dang Nets stop it right now. If Portland does not match on Crabbe I will be upset. Same with Johnson.

    Frazier would be a fine pickup. He’s a restricted free agent I believe. I actually tweeted Clarence Gaines to consider him.

    tweeted Clarence Gaines?!

    reub, tell the truth..are you actually Phil Jackson?

    David Pick is saying that Portland won’t match the Net’s offer for Crabbe. $18M per year is a little high for a guy who doesn’t even start but I liked him, except the hair. Not anymore though since he’s becoming a Net. Boo.

    18mm for a guy who has had one good season who’s only real skill is shooting is a bit much….

    he’s young so it could work out but it’s not clear that he’s a nba player yet….

    With the Bulls signing Rondo, what’s the over/under on Jerian Grant’s minutes? I’d be surprised to see him get more than 1200 minutes.

    The Bulls may be considering waiving Jose Calderon. I would re sign him for the vet minimum so fast bro.

    Isn’t there some kind of rule about not being able to sign a player you traded away for at least a year?

    Does anyone like Frank Isola? His last three tweets are about how it’s tell that the Knicks didn’t get s meet with KD and that the Knicks summer league team should be better because they sucked. He just trolls the team, I’m pretty sure he posts here

    Isola sucks. Berman sucks. Alan Hahn has been swallowed by the Mecca of suck.

    Kings rescinded their QO to Seth Curry. He’d be nice for the room.

    Years ago, Dolan shut off the heat in the beat writer’s lounge because of negative press to Isiah’s amazing moves. Isola had the nerve to write about it, so Dolan sent him to the gulag. Why the Daily News keeps him on the beat is a mystery to me. He obviously can’t be objective, but, then again, it’s the Daily News, which is actually a lamer publication than the New York Post, which at least has some decent celebrity gossip from time to time.

    Isola is a smart guy and a good basketball analyst when he is objective. I don’t know how often that is when he speaks of the Dolan Knicks, but, let’s face it, if he says the Knicks sucks he’s right 90% of the time…

    Signed,

    Donnie “Frank Isola” Walsh

    Isola is a good radio host, I like listening to him in the morning on the way to work. He’s an a-hole at times, but it’s good listening.

    Seth Curry would be a perfect back up point, but I kinda like Tim Frazier more. Either one of those guys plus Galloway and Holiday and you’ve got yourself a stew.

    So according to Newsday, Hornacek wants to have 2 out of 3 of Rose, Melo, and Porzingis on court at all times. That sounds like a good idea. They’re also looking at a guard who can spot start because D Rose ain’t starting 82. Seeing where they are coming from, I think we’ll end up with Ramon Sessions as the back up point guard.

    >Ramon Sessions

    One of our old nemeses and decorated Jarrett Jack All-Star, eh? Sign me up.

    Hornacek wants to have 2 out of 3 of Rose, Melo, and Porzingis on court at all times.

    So I guess Melo and Porzingis will be playing 48 minutes most nights.

    So I guess Melo and Porzingis will be playing 48 minutes most nights.

    Good one, Frank!

    @162
    Z-Man, thanks for the link. That was hilarious. I love where a Kings fan came in to show sympathy.

    Prior to FA, my mantra was “Anyone but Rondo!”

    @177 one of hornaceks best qualities in Phoenix was his minutes management. Starters averaged under 35 mpg

    @180

    Rondo is low key one of my favorite players. I love watching his highlights. He’s utterly, obstinately weird. He insists on playing a different game than anyone else on the floor. Like checkers vs. Connect Four.

    Just glad he’s not on my team. I enjoy watching his weirdness from a safe distance.

    yeah, Rondo a pass first guy reckon would be good for KP and Melo… and cheap at $12M per year.. could have gotten Gasol for two year rental too..

    Happy 4th!
    So now it’s time to consider a backup PG, the most important position left to fill given Rose’s injury potential. We need someone who can step into a starter’s role and not be a complete disaster. My take:

    Tim Frazier: Most potential of any young PG still out there. Definitely the best choice for the future. I’m down with him, make it happen Phil!

    Ramon Sessions: My #1 veteran choice. Longtime KB fave, quietly one of the best reserve PGs for a decade. Biggest knock is that he can’t shot the 3, so perfect fill-in for Rose. In fact, the most Rose-like on the list. Probably gets more than we can offer…or should.

    Mario Chalmers: Recovering from an achilles rupture, which is the only reason he’s not going to get overpaid like every other decent backup PG. Might be the best option at the right price since he offers a 3-ball that Sessions doesn’t, which is needed on our bench. Should be ready by November the latest, barring any setbacks. Knows how to play on the margins for a team loaded with big names.

    Ty Lawson: hard to play when one foot is still in rehab, but has the most potential of anyone out there. If none of the above works out, I’d be OK with him at the minimum and would cut him at the first sign of trouble.

    Pablo Prigioni: Love him, but probaby couldn’t handle anything more than a reserve role at this point in his career. The dude is ageless, though!

    Grievus Vasquez: one of the worst defensive players in the league, essentially Calderon without the TS%. Pass.

    Randy Foye: really pretty bad, not worth anything above the minimum, maybe not worth even that.

    Seth Curry: not really a PG (probably good roster-filler combo guard at the minimum, though.)

    Kirk Heinrich: Can’t score, pass or defend, but otherwise pretty solid!

    Raymond Felton: NO F”N” WAY!!!!!

    More:
    Nate: maybe as a spark off the bench, still love the guy! Not a PG, though. Probably not a NFL D-back either.
    Shane Larkin: Arms too short, hands too small.
    Andre Miller: RIP, you Knick-killin’ bastard.
    Norris Cole: F*** him

    I should add that Tim Frazier is a RFA, so may not be gettable at all.

    I see Rondo in retirement opening an auto body shop, then having an affair with the wife of one of his employees, subsequently killing said employee when the affair is discovered, then conducting his own defense entirely in Esperanto. He serves 5 years in a minimum security prison in Antartica and ends up becoming a noted authority on the Emperor Penguin.

    I just watched some highlights of Frazier and had flashbacks to Linsanity. Lots of similarities! Can we poison pill him? 😉

    Coach is gonna need a math lesson if he thinks he can have 2 of the Melo/KP/Rose trio on the floor at all times. If these guys average 70% of minutes (about 34 mpg) they would have to play no more than 10% of minutes at the same time to have at least 2/3 of the court the rest of the time. That’s 4.8 minutes per game, which we know is silly because for the most they will all start and all finish together, at least until someone gets hurt.

    I wouldn’t worry about that, he has a history of being a good minutes manager (unlike D’Antoni, for example.). He still has no idea what his bench is going to look like.

    ptmilo
    July 4, 2016 at 9:27 am
    Coach is gonna need a math lesson if he thinks he can have 2 of the Melo/KP/Rose trio on the floor at all times. If these guys average 70% of minutes (about 34 mpg) they would have to play no more than 10% of minutes at the same time to have at least 2/3 of the court the rest of the time. That’s 4.8 minutes per game, which we know is silly because for the most they will all start and all finish together, at least until someone gets hurt.

    Maybe this is Horny’s way of telling us that D-Rose won’t be starting or finishing games… I’d be on board for that! #math #sneakyhorny

    You might notice that the one name left out of that trifecta is Noah… It actually makes a lot of sense to run triangle sets through Big Frenchy and keep Rose off the court for as much of that as possible in favor of a point that can shoot off the pass rather than the dribble.

    Maybe it’s because I have the maturity of a 12 year old but #sneakyhorny made me snort loudly on the train

    #naughtyhorny

    @186/7
    Z-Man,
    I keep reading that Galloway and Thomas are likely to return. We can go over the cap on them. Galloway is the b/u PG we need and Thomas can step in for Melo. I also read that Willie-H is getting lucrative offers in Europe and is not a shoe-in to come here. Assuming we luck out on all three, we would have a balanced 10-man team. Galloway can run the point or back shooting guard.

    Homer that I am, there are some other intriguing “former Knick” ideas. I would love to add Prigs as a guy that can come in and play 20 minutes in an emergency. Nate played with Noah and Rose and is instant energy off the bench. I just like the idea of seeing him hurdle KP in the slam-dunk contest. Stoudemire has come out saying he wouldn’t mind joining the roster and could step in for short stretches and I still have his jersey. What about Novak when we need a few threes?

    As for other backup point guards, I like Sessions and Chalmers but there are others that fit the bill.

    This is a totally disgusting thing to say but if I were Durant I’d pick the Celtics.

    Also, Coach can’t repurpose the #sneakyhorny hashtag while Isiah’s here running the Liberty without buying him a watch or something.

    Jerian Grant, pre-All Star break (51 games): .435 TS%
    Jerian Grant, post-All Star break (25 games): .548 TS%

    You can only use this type of analysis if you are trying to DEFEND the Rose trade. 🙂

    I am all for any of Prigs, Novak, Nate or Amare at the minimum. Not a penny more for any of them. Well, Nate is probably worth a bit more if he’s healthy.

    strat, I respect your point of view b/c you put your money where your mouth is. I’m feeling more and more that you are going (or goink) to be wrong on this one, though. The Knicks are making the playoffs.

    How about a friendly wager? The loser has to wear a Paul Pierce Celtics jersey to a Knicks game and sit in the 400 section, then post the photo on KB.

    Nah, I take it back, that’s sick.

    Wow. Durant to the Warriors.

    Cue the hot takes. He’s going to get destroyed in the press for this. It’ll be way worse than Lebron. As it should be. Talk about taking the easy way out.

    okay, let’s focus on getting Lance Thomas wrapped up so we can compete with GSW this year.

    I think the Eastern Conference is going to be very competitive next year. The only playoff locks I see on paper are Cleveland, Toronto and Boston. Then there about 8 teams that could finish anywhere from #4 to #11. Indiana is very different. Miami is different. Pistons are good, not great. Milwaukee is weirdly unpredictable. Charlotte will be different. Orlando is different. Atlanta is very different. The Knicks are very different. Wizards are different. The level of player movement in the East is astounding,

    Only the Nets and Sixers seem like locks not to make the playoffs. Chicago probably doesn’t make it.

    Should be an interesting year!

    Wow. The WC is now a joke. Only injury can derail the Dubs.

    Poor Thunder. So close, yet so far.

    @200 Zman,

    These are my honest feelings.

    1. I think the Rose trade was bad because he’s unlikely to regain enough form & play enough games to make a huge positive impact. If he does, then we may be in a position of taking an even bigger risk to sign him to a long team deal next year. To the extent that he helped bring in Noah and Lee, then it was a positive if you think “win now” is the right strategy. I don’t.

    2. I think the team has a very well constructed starting 5, but still has gaping holes on the bench (we’ll see what happens there).

    3. The upsides are Noah & Rose recovering much better form while giving us 70 or so games and/or KP exploding forward and becoming a real star. If it all happens, I can’t see how the Knicks aren’t a darn good team.

    4. The downsides are Rose and Noah miss significant time, Rose maintains he’s sub 50% TS% etc…

    5. I think the most likely scenario is that Rose and Noah play better than last year, but not at their peak levels and both give us 60-65 games give or take a few. I expect KP to be better, but maybe not “real star” yet.

    a. IMO Noah is a wash. He’ll give us better play than Lopez, but for fewer games.
    b. Rose will only be worth a couple of games given limited time.
    c. Lee will be worth a few games over Afflalo.
    d. KP will be worth 4-5 extra games based on improvement.
    e. Bench is a ?

    Just to keep it neat, lets call it 41 games or .500. But we have a .500 team with several players on the downside. I think we could have built a similar (maybe slightly inferior) team with most players on the upside. That would have been my preferred route.

    When it’s all said and done we’ll see what the under/over is what the other teams still do.

    I’m sure there are lots of personal reasons for KD to leave OKC but joining the Warriors feels anticompetitive. Even worse than the Decision.

    They’re going to be hated even worse than Miami was.

    So KD to the Warriors

    Next season Westbrook must be available I guess…

    Why should Durant take any grief?

    OKC traded away Harden being overly tightfisted. Durant earned his right to free agency. He made the correct move. If you could live in the Bay Area or Tornado Alley… what are you doing?

    And the team is pretty good, by the way 🙂 They’ve got 4 players better than DJ, Chief, Bird and Mc Hale

    Hopefully that increases our chances at getting Westbrook next year though idk how we’ll clear cap for him given the new signings

    strat, that’s a very level-headed assessment. The only thing I would add is that these moves might facilitate KP’s improvement. I also think it’s possible that if Rose plays well and we win for, say, 2/3 of the season, then gets hurt, Westbrook or CP3 might see that we’re a PG away from being very competitive in 2017.

    Another way of looking at it: if you weren’t going to make moves like this, then why sign Melo to a near mega-max with a NTC in the first place?

    I still think there will be opportunities for young guys with upside, like Frazier. D-League stars, etc. might be attracted to places where they can actually play right away and winning always trumps losing.

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