2016-17 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Magic

This is a big game for the Knicks, as they host the Orlando Magic without Kristaps Porzingis (I don’t like him missing multiple games with a mystery Achilles injury. How has he not had an MRI yet?!?). However, Courtney Lee, Kyle O’Quinn and Carmelo Anthony are all playing tonight, so the Knicks really:

A. need to win
B. should win.

The Magic are in the midst of a bit of a freefall, so the Knicks just have to have to have to have to take advantage, especially as they have a home and home coming up against the much tougher Milwaukee.

Let’s go, Knicks!

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186 thoughts to “2016-17 Game Thread: Knicks vs. Magic”

  1. This Orlando Magic team is ass. This has got to be the most oddball roster in the entire NBA.

  2. Ian Begley
    ESPN Staff Writer

    Kristaps Porzingis says he still feels some discomfort in his Achillies while doing “explosive” movements but that he’ll “probably” be back Wednesday.
    Share
    3m

  3. This franchise would be the definition of moronic to have KP rush back with soreness in his Achilles. We have a so called “team leader” who is so out of shape he can’t even play both sides of the court, but we’re rushing our 21 year old to play 30+ minutes a game with an injury. God, I hate how the Knicks organization is run.

  4. Should we be concerned that our team only has 1 more win than Orlando’s with 2 less games played?

  5. This team would be the definition of moronic to have KP rush back with soreness in his Achilles. We have a so called “team leader” who is so out of shape he can’t even play both sides of the court, but we’re rushing our 21 year old to play 30+ minutes a game with an injury. God, I hate how this organization is run.

    Kind of seems like everyone (including KP) have been taking the play it safe route; so I am not sure they are rushing him. If he has no soreness and is given the green light by the docs, why wouldn’t you play him on Wednesday? I get that his minutes could be a bit more limited so he doesn’t burn out, and I am certainly not suggesting he get run into the ground (ala STAT), but the only way he is going to get to elite fitness is by playing and playing starters minutes.

  6. “Welcome to Madison Square Garden, where washed up NBA guards come to revive their careers”

  7. Listen guys, you can’t hope to stop Jodie Meeks and DJ Augustin, you just have to hope you can contain them

  8. ok, I mean, we’re joking about Augustin and Meeks and all.

    but if this team starts letting ELFRID PAYTON do the same… that would be next level.

  9. wow, and, i thought our defense was bad when mr. pringles was running the show for the knicks…this is crazy – the magic scoring 30 plus in a quarter…

    that’s some funny stuff with rondo…looks like grant is gonna get his chance to shine…

  10. I would like Brandon Jennings so much more if he made jumpers on a consistent basis

  11. When we draft Ntilikina with the 8th overall pick will the fans boo him?

    Or KP was too much of a lesson for Knicks fans?

  12. James Harden beat us so bad that Brandon Jennings actually thinks he’s James Harden.

  13. Lol the improbable Kuz-Curry three gets followed up by a patented Brandon Jennings 4 point play

    This games a mess

  14. Player A
    .543 TS%
    .068 WS48
    24.8 AST%
    20.4 USG%
    $7.25M salary

    Player B
    .507 TS%
    .054 WS48
    22.7 AST%
    26.3 USG%
    $21.3M salary

  15. but if this team starts letting ELFRID PAYTON do the same… that would be next level.

    Uhhhhhh….

  16. The body language and energy of this team could best be described by the word “hangdog.”

  17. I have to think the Knicks come back and win this game. The Magic couldn’t shoot 66% from three in an empty gym. Certainly this can’t last.

  18. You cant rebuild in New York, James Dolan won’t allow it!

  19. The Knicks allow this horrible team without it’s best scorer come to MSG and score 67 points in one half.

    this is absolutely disgraceful.

    the worst part is that this damned team will probably comeback in the second half and win this game, then we’ll have to hear about resillience and god knows what other bullshit arguments.

  20. Elfrid Payton is looking like freakin’ John Stockton out there. He has 8 assists, 0 turnovers. Our guards are just not any kind of impediment whatsoever to opposing offenses.

  21. Chill out dudes we are definitely stealth tanking. 17 games in January will definitely help us get a lottery pick.

  22. Everybody who doubted needs to run to the mountain top and scream “JOAKIM NOAH IS BETTER THAN ROBIN LOPEZ”

  23. This team needs a gutting in the worst way. It’s tragic, mostly for us though… Remember that

  24. I think our starters sans KP might be legitimately worse than our bench

  25. I wonder what the optimists will say about this one

    Even if we win this is so embarrassing

  26. every game a scrub gets the chance to feel like a NBA superstar! come to the make a star foundation and your dreams will come true!

  27. One flaw I’ve noticed in our defense is that even when we play the third worst offense in the league without their leading scorer we give up like 125 points

  28. We have two more years of Mega Max Melo everyone

    Two more years of stealth tanking? Sign me up.

  29. you get an open shot! you get an open shot! everybooodyy gets an open shot!!!

    Knicks’ D is channeling Oprah every night out there.

  30. HEy if the Magic put up 120 maybe Rambis gets fired

  31. Too early in the season to start rooting for the tank? I’m going to the ASG in Feb and would like to see KP which I suppose is not looking likely at this point. This team is not good. Could be good, but would require Melo to change his stripes.

    @56 don’t worry not a chance we are winning this

  32. Payton’s agent is recording this entire game on his dvr, it will make for a sick tape when he inevitably has to find another team in the near future.

  33. Who’s better, Elfrid Payton or James Harden?

    Against the Knicks it’s hard to tell!

  34. Great turnover from resident 16 PPG scorer and former league MVP Derrick Rose

  35. out of all the horrible ugly games, this one has been the ugliest imo… or just the freshest in my memory.

  36. This doesn’t look like a stealth tank at all

    Full fledged tanks are acceptable as well.

  37. HEy if the Magic put up 120 maybe Rambis gets fired

    Rambis can never be fired. If anything, Hornacek will be fired and Rambis promoted because Triangle or something.

  38. man, Giannis is going to wreck this terrible defense so hard tomorrow.

    And then again in the game after that

  39. KP for MVP. I had no idea he was this important to our shitty defense. We’re bad with him there but we’re horrid without him.

  40. desperate Horny strikes again:

    with a game tomorrow, he’s leaving his starters on the court in an obviously lost game.

    I just can’t even figure out what aspect of this team I hate the most right now.

  41. Remember that Phil Jackson should’ve been fired on the spot for giving Carmelo an NTC

    Cant wait to extend him in two years

  42. Got two tickets to see them here in Portland for Christmas. Hopefully it’ll be a good one since the blazers don’t play defense either.

  43. @92

    Manure is better than shit, I guess.

    even Breen, who’s a very positive guy all the time, is getting pissed at Carmelo not playing defense.

  44. #93

    If they extend Melo in two years I am done with this team. There is only so much a fan can withstand.

  45. Where have you gone, Charles Oakley-O
    Knick Nation turns their lonely eyes to you
    Woo woo woo

  46. @96 he hates wearing caps but loves taking long walks on the beach, so he found a creative solution.

  47. I’d rather play and lose with the young, team oriented squad of Ron, Kuz, Ndour, Willy, etc. than play and lose this geriatric lineup of overpaid wash ups.

  48. If we played against our defense, the threes would be raining from the sky, it would be glorious!

  49. LOL the Magic have as many wins for the season as we do. Let that sink in before we laugh again at how poorly constructed they are.

  50. by the way, Jerian Grant has 9 points, 3 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals and only 1 turnover today playing extended minutes for the Bulls.

  51. Seriously though I don’t Melo extending is 100% set in stone. The fans could turn on him during his continued decline and we already have the golden boy in KP.

    He could have his wish and team up with Lebron, Wade and CP3 for the AAU tour.

  52. We can get mad at Phil all we want but this team was destined to suck major ass this season due to several irrevocable factors.

    – No depth
    -Melo’s bum ass knee

    My hope is that this is a tank and Phil trades Melo and Rose sooner rather than later.

  53. Phil better grow a pair of balls and begin to pull the trigger on some trades this upcoming deadline.

    I am sure there is some team we can fleece into trading for Rose or Noah.

  54. Wow, I don’t know if anyone still has MSG on, but they just showed a clip of Melo holding the ball, waving everyone off and chucking up a contested 2. In the background, you can see Hornacek walking away in disgust.

    Very interesting.

  55. your new york knickerbockers hosting their annual season long “make a star foundation”…

    that was gold Bruno…

  56. dmar, was it that play where he told everyone to clear out, then screamed at Oak to give him a screen and ended up chucking a terrible shot?

    I switched to the Bulls game before it ended

  57. Wow, I don’t know if anyone still has MSG on, but they just showed a clip of Melo holding the ball, waving everyone off and chucking up a contested 2. In the background, you can see Hornacek walking away in disgust.

    Terrible.

  58. Hope this season becomes another Melo-D’Antoni esque disaster movie that’ll definitely help us build up that loss column

  59. Speaking of Melo-D’Antoni …. looks like Pringles won that fight in the end. He’s sitting pretty in Houston as a COY candidate while an old, subpar Melo leads the team to another losing season.

  60. dmar, was it that play where he told everyone to clear out, then screamed at Oak to give him a screen and ended up chucking a terrible shot?

    Yeah, I think so, the eye opening part was that Hornacek turned away in disgust when Melo waved everyone off, didn’t even watch the shot.

    The ship be sinking

  61. In all seriousness if Horny had huge balls he’d start Kyle, KP, Holiday, Lee, Rose.

    Those are the players worthy of starting in terms of performance at this point in the season.

  62. Jimmy Butler is putting up 45 points, 11 rebounds and 6 assists on the Hornets today while playing great defense.

  63. @IanBegley

    Jeff Hornacek: “I don’t think our guys aren’t trying (on defense), maybe we’re just not capable of it. I don’t know.”

  64. I don’t know if Melo gets to stay through yet another coach. Between Rose and KP, the Knicks have his replacements in place vis a vis marketing. The usual ball hog/no D narrative will gain traction as he gets worse. I could see the shit really hitting the fan with Melo.

  65. Breen and Clyde were taking shots at Melo’s IDGAF defense near the end of the game. Hopefully that message starts permeating the organization. For a star to not even try on one side of the ball is unacceptable unless you’re James Harden.

  66. This fish is rotting from the head down. Phil Jackson does not know what the fuck he is doing.

  67. I’m sure in Phil’s addled hippie brain the reason this team is losing is that they’re not Triangling enough. I mean he really is that fucking stupid.

  68. i’m not putting the blame on hornacek… although he probably should be starting koq over noah and i hope this losing streak wakes him up to that fact…

    we are probably below average athletically at all positions kp doesn’t play so i think that’s the main reason why our defense sucks…

  69. This is the biggest moment of Horny’s young Knick career. I’ve been generally happy with him despite the pitiful team defense, but this team is on a precipice right now. Things could easily spiral out of control like they did last year. He’s got to get through to them NOW.

  70. Let the tank continue. Fuck stopping the spiral. Sit KP until that Achilles is immaculate. Let these scrubs be exposed for the shit they are.

  71. This ship be sinking, but the SS Ball and Ntilikina are raring to go! Pick your favorite!

  72. Think about if we had the 3rd pick and had drafted Okafor. Fans would burn MSG to the ground.

  73. Knowing the Knicks they’re gonna bring KP back early on Wednesday in a “must win game” and he’s gonna tear his Achilles on a fast break dunk that’s blocked by Giannis

  74. Honestly, I don’t envy Hornacek one bit. We criticize his rotations but every player on this team is seriously flawed and it must be hell to try and mix and match to find the optimal lineup while simultaneously keeping your “stars” and management happy by playing Melo for 40 minutes, starting Noah, and playing Lance Thomas for any amount of minutes

  75. What’s the highest draft position the Knicks could get if this thing really goes tits up?

    The Knicks are currently 10th in the East, but they could easily fall behind Orlando and Detroit. The bottom three teams, Brooklyn, Miami and Philly, are probably too hard to “catch.” The West is where most of the terrible teams reside these days. Phoenix, Dallas, Minnesota and the Lakers are all probably too awful to pass the Knicks in the ping pong ball standings.

    So best case scenario, the Knicks end up with the 8th worst record in the league. That might be do-able considering how shitty they look right now. An 8th place finish gives you a 10% chance of a top 3 pick.

  76. Tanking can be best accomplished by demoting Melo to the second unit: high pick plus Melo and Rose gone!!!!

    Instant rebuild.

  77. Just a quick diversion from the Knicks shit show, how about the fact that the 2 best players from the 2013 draft were Giannis (15) and Gobert (27)? One of the worst drafts ever, unless of course you’re a Bucks or Jazz fan.

  78. #149

    It proves that whenever an American draft is weak, your best bet is to go all in on a high ceiling/low floor Euro.

  79. i think the realistic best shot we can hope for is 11th… the west lotto teams are all probably going to finish with worse records than us unless melo or kp go down for extended time….

    ntilikina will be there… i think he’s pretty overrated since he dribbles a bit high and that usually kills most tall pg’s in this league… but there are other great prospects in the late lotto range…

  80. I imagine Ntilikina will go anywhere from 6th-10th. The top 5 seem pretty set to me barring some big late season tournament heroics.

  81. I think Ntilikina might end up being available… but if he does, it really depends on the amount of teams looking for PGs.

    Philly, Dallas and maybe Minnesota will all most certainly be looking for PGs… that probably takes Markelle Fultz, Lonzo Ball and Dennis Smith off the board, or maybe Dennis Smith. Miami depends on if they trade Dragic, the Lakers are probably stupid enough to keep Russell as their PG of the future.
    Phoenix most likely will keep Bledsoe and New Orleans will keep Holiday. Sacramento and Orlando are a wild cards as always and Portland might end up with a better record than the Knicks.

    so if the draft looks something like Celtics – Sixers – Mavericks – Suns – Kings or Wolves – Sixers (the Lakers pick is top 3 protected only) – Heat – Pelicans and the Knicks get say, the 9th overall, it is possible that Fultz, Smith, Ball, Isaac, Monk, Jackson, Tatum, Rabb and Giles will be gone, and Ntilikina and De’Aaron Fox would be available.

    Ntilikina and Fox are actually the two best defenders out of all the PGs in the draft, so I would be pretty happy with either of them… I personally favor Ntilikina because he’s taller and seems to be a better passer, but I would be ecstatic if that was the choice the Knicks were given.

  82. Click the twitter link for the Horny/Melo sequence D-Mar is talking about:

    It’s time for us to have an honest talk about Carmelo Anthony. pic.twitter.com/NgKV19KIZK— Delblogo (@Delblogo) January 3, 2017

    While there’s really no defending Melo, on the play in question he motions to KOQ to set a screen (though KOQ would’ve needed x-ray vision to see it) and waives away Jennings- then he motions for KOQ again who just sits in the lane. He probably wouldn’t have wound up with a good shot anyway but it wasn’t as bad as it looked. Still, it’s pretty obvious that Melo needs to be a second/third option at this point in his career.

  83. the Celtics might also pick a Point Guard to trade, since they only really need big men and picking Giles or Rabb or even Hartenstein in the top three would probably be a major reach.

    anyway, I highly doubt five PGs are going to get drafted before the ninth or tenth pick

  84. The Knicks are so bereft of young talent and so far away from winning that it doesn’t really matter if they get one of the top PG prospects. You go BPA. Long-term the Knicks are going to need a PG, a SG, a SF and a C.

    A smart GM wouldn’t even factor the veterans on the roster into any draft decision, because a smart GM would realize that any sort of “win now” strategy is complete folly. This core of veterans ain’t winning shit, not now, not next year and not the year after that. But then again, we don’t have a smart GM, we have Phil Jackson.

  85. I also think Jackson will be a bust, Monk is CJ McCollum and Giles is extremely gifted but is an injury risk and will most likely be very limited offensively early on, so the BPA would still most likely be a Pg

  86. I would take Ntilikina over each and everyone of those PGs outside of Fultz on the basis of defensive upside alone. His wingspan and length will be invaluable for this team moving forward as it would allow us to match him up against both guards and even some forwards on the wings. Kid is 18 years old and is just growing into his body. Can’t wait to see what kind of prowess he matures into.

  87. Would you guys risk taking a chance on Giles if he were available?

    yes, he’s a top 3-5 pick if you discount the injury concerns. He’s certainly worth it at 13 or wherever he’s slated, especially if all our coveted guards are gone. I also like Markkanen if we’re out of the PG running–he looks like a legit stretch 4, and the stretchiness when coupled with Porzingis would be pretty absurd.

    I would take Ntilikina over each and everyone of those PGs outside of Fultz on the basis of defensive upside alone.

    I still think Lonzo Ball is the best prospect in this draft. But after Ball/Fultz I think Ntilikina, Monk, and Fox are relatively even. I like Ntilikina/Fox more than I like Monk, so that’s good, given that they’re slated to go later in the first compared to Monk.

    We could have 2 lottery picks (maybe more) if we were able to trade Melo to Boston. Thanks Phil! :(

  88. just look at the playoff odds and our expected record we’re sitting at 38 wins currently and i just don’t see us finishing any worse than 36 wins… that puts us at #11…

    in the 10-13 range that probably puts us in the running for ntilikina, giles and fox… og anunoby is an interesting name also if we want to move to a smaller lineup while grooming melo’s replacement…. giles has a ton of issues besides the injury risks and i don’t think we need a pf….

    i think fox is the best player now out of all those names but the conference schedule is just starting so these will all change by end of season…

  89. Is Fox good enough to get away with being a 14.3% 3pt shooter?

    I think so: shooting in general and especially 3 point shooting is quite volatile year to year, and shooting is also one of the things you can teach someone from the ground up in a way that you can’t with other skills (see: Kawhi Leonard); Fox does literally everything other than shoot the three really well–excellent rebounder, passer, defender, and he gets lots of steals. I’m skeptical of Monk because he doesn’t do anything other than score at a very efficient clip (reminds me of Jamal Murray from last year), and I’m skeptical that he can keep those numbers up in the stratosphere where they currently are when he transitions to the NBA given the increased athleticism, physicality, and general competence. Since he doesn’t do much of anything else well, he’s probably gonna be a pretty volatile player, at least in his first few years.

  90. yeah, and even shooting so putridly bad from 3, he still gets to the line a lot (6 attempts per game) and is an absolutely elite defender and handler / passer.

    he could become Elfrid Payton if he cannot develop a better jump shot, but I agree with Silky that it’s something that can be taught.

    Ntilikina would still be my pick because of his tantalizing potential… if he ever figures everything out, he’ll be unstoppable. He’s tall and long, meaning he can look and pass over most PGs in the league, and scouting reports have said that he seems to understand the game at an elite level, both defensively with his reads and positioning and offensively distributing the ball… he also has a more developed jump shot than Fox.

  91. just look at the playoff odds and our expected record we’re sitting at 38 wins currently and i just don’t see us finishing any worse than 36 wins… that puts us at #11…

    I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

    The Knicks Pythag record coming into tonight’s game was 13-20, and it will be 13-21 tomorrow morning. That’s a 31 win pace. If the Knicks play at their Pythag pace for the remainder of the season, they would go 18-30 the rest of the way. That would put them at 34 wins.

    But they certainly could play even worse than that. They’ve been healthy. An injury here or there and a lot of minutes for the likes of Lance Thomas and Sasha Vujacic, combined with a regression of their Pythag luck could result in somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 wins.

    I dream big, I know.

  92. Let’s let the body get cold before we start tanking. This team has enough talent that it’s not going to crater enough to get a great pick. And we’re a couple wins away from being a 4-seed again.

  93. Apparently Ntilikina lit the U18 FIBA championship up this past week or so.

    We should really make a play for him (i.e. trade up) if he’s not going top 7

  94. I know the appeal of a Lonzo Ball. I get that he has Kidd 2.0 written all over him. But that shot looks tore up from the floor up.

  95. Put it this way — given the wins we’ve already banked, we’re closer to being a playoff team than a team that would get a really interesting draft pick.

    And if we really stink up the joint, our players look terrible and lose whatever trade value they have now. If Phil ever gets the balls to try and move Melo, I want market demand for Melo to still exist.

  96. #169

    I saw the game. Its online. He was clearly the best player on both ends of the court that night. He’s 18 years old, BTW. He’s worked on his jumper as his team’s starting offguard this season. Kid has a superstar type ceiling but he’s not aggressive the way North American basketball fans expect their stars to be. He’s more in the vein of a Euro-guard who won’t take a shot or dominate the ball if the defense isn’t there.

  97. I agree Ras, I too watched it.

    he looks like the perfect player to be a secondary star next to a frontcourt superstar, that’s why I think he and KP could be insane together.

  98. he looks like the perfect player to be a secondary star next to a frontcourt superstar, that’s why I think he and KP could be insane together.

    Their combined length would immediately upgrade us on defense in a very substantive way. Ntilikina’s 7’0″ wingspan in closing and redirecting the passing lanes on the team’s primary ball handler combined with Porzingis’ 7’6″ wingspan as the best rim protector would be a super combination.

  99. Lonzo’s shot looks ugly but I’ll be damned if the thing doesn’t go in most of the time. He has a .652 TS%, .656 eFG%. Fultz’ shot certainly looks better eye test-wise. He has great form.

    I like Fultz slightly better overall, he looks like a next-gen guard to me, but you can’t go wrong with either guy in the draft.

  100. @127 Thanks for that link. Hornacek’ s reaction is priceless. I’m pretty sure ISO Melo is not what he had in mind to run that possession. This could get ugly in a hurry, which is kind of sad as the Knicks have shown some improvement at times this year.
    Do the words “Coach Killer” mean anything to you right about now?

  101. I wonder if Ball’s ugly shot mechanics won’t catch up to him in a quicker, taller league of better defenders. Its like a QB in Tebow whose funky mechanics work at the collegiate level being exposed at the NFL level professional level.

  102. I wonder if Ball’s ugly shot mechanics won’t catch up to him in a quicker, taller league of better defenders.

    It’s certainly possible but the rest of Ball’s game is so electric he has a high floor anyway. Worst case scenario he’s what, Ricky Rubio? Fultz, on the other hand, has just about everything you could want out of a guard prospect, he checks just about every box. I can’t really remember another guard coming out of college who was as versatile and polished as Fultz is right now.

  103. A Ricky Rubio type without a jumper is a PG who will have problems orchestrating in the halfcourt with opposing guards playing off.

  104. Though Dolan < Mara + Tisch and the Isiah Thomas protest fell flat, maybe it's time to crowdsource a drone to fly inside the Garden with this banner:

    20 years of bad basketball We’ve had enough.

  105. It’s not about the bad basketball. It’s about crushing our dreams with shortsighted moves (Thanks Phil!). Also, no KP games ending with an L = utter despair.

  106. The football Giants flying banner protest in 1978 led the NFL commish to intervene with ownership to hire George Young as GM, which in turn was the catalyst to change the direction of the team.

  107. Uhm, ok, but in NY you’ll always make money with basketball as long as you have at least one recognizable “star” which is, super sadly, the reason why Melo has the NTC.

  108. It’s not about the bad basketball. It’s about crushing our dreams with shortsighted moves (Thanks Phil!).

    Thank Dolan, not Phil Jackson.

    Unfortunately most fans have very short memories and are easily fooled. Nobody remembers how, when or why Phil Jackson landed in NY: his hire was annonuced exactly one day before an organized fan protest was scheduled at MSG. Yes, one day before.

    Dolan signed Jackson to a $60M contract (relative peanuts for a $3B business) and everybody forgot the march, everybody applauded the move, extolled the triangle’s magic and found deep meaning in every stupid thing coming out of Jackson’s mouth.

    Very few people realized Phil Jackson was just another big name sold to gullible fans to fuel their waning hope.

    And here we are, approaching the time for another big name, but always two consecutive wins away from fans forgetting how bad the team really is.

    Gone are the days of KOQ being a great player. Passimism (or is it reality) has taken control of the ‘optimists'” minds and the narrative begins to sound awfully similar to those of the last 20 years…

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