SNY.com: NBA scouts and execs on new Knicks hires Walt Perrin and Frank Zanin

Ian Begley has a great look at Perrin and Zanin:

On Perrin:

“He’s been operating at a high level with Utah for a long time,” one member of an opposing team familiar with Perrin’s work said. “This is a really good hire. Really good.”

Said someone else familiar with the scouting/executive community in the NBA: “He’s a really good guy. No nonsense guy.”

In Utah, Perrin was most recently the VP of Player Personnel. Throughout his 19-year tenure in Utah, Perrin was regularly involved with Jazz drafts.

Utah has had plenty of strong picks during that time, including Paul Millsap (late second round, 2006), Gordon Hayward, Mo Williams (late second round pick in 2003), Rudy Gobert, and Donovan Mitchell.

The Jazz, of course, haven’t gotten every pick right during Perrin’s tenure (Trey Burke, Dante Exum), but the club’s hit rate with Perrin on board is impressive.

It’s rare that one person is solely responsible for a team drafting a player. It’s usually a collaborative process that ends with top decision-makers having the final say.

But it’s worth noting that Perrin was a driving force behind Utah selecting Mitchell in 2017. The Jazz traded up to the 13th spot in the draft to select the New York native. The Knicks had worked Mitchell out shortly before the draft but passed on him to select Frank Ntilikina.

Mitchell has blossomed into an All-Star. Perrin’s role in Utah’s decision to draft Mitchell has been well documented. But two people familiar with the dynamic said this week that Perrin “stuck his neck out” and “pushed really hard” for Utah to select Mitchell.

“Walt believed in him, and he wasn’t afraid to make a push for him,” one person familiar with the matter said.

And Zanin:

Zanin has been a scout with the Thunder for the past four years. Like Utah, the Thunder are respected throughout the league for their scouting on the college and pro level under Sam Presti.

“If Presti hires you, it says something (about your ability),” one opposing scout said when asked about Zanin.

Prior to his stint with Oklahoma City, Zanin worked closely with Billy King in Brooklyn. Zanin was an assistant GM with the Nets and elevated to acting GM after King’s dismissal. He stepped down after the Nets hired Sean Marks as general manager.

Zanin, who began his career with King in Philadelphia, was described by one opposing scout as a hard worker who doesn’t seek the spotlight. During his tenure as acting GM, Zanin was in the spotlight for a brief time — but not from his own actions.

Kobe Bryant and Zanin played at rival high schools in the Philadelphia area. The late Bryant endorsed Zanin for the full-time Brooklyn job with a tweet:

From the talk, it sure seems like Perrin has the better rep, as Zanin’s rep seems to come down to, “Well, Presti hired him, so he must be good” and “Kobe Bryant thought he would be a good GM, which means nothing, but it is nice to hear, I guess.”

But hey, positive things are still nice to here overall, right? Let’s hope that they do a good job with this year’s draft.

So, what number do you think Cole Anthony will wear?

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111 thoughts to “SNY.com: NBA scouts and execs on new Knicks hires Walt Perrin and Frank Zanin”

  1. A player like Cole Anthony makes a ton of theoretical sense in a line up with RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson as a FVV type player, but it’s so hard to look past those stats and that wingspan. I’d take him in the first round but with the Clippers pick.

    I’m cautiously optimistic about Walt Perrin, though. The Utah Jazz attract nobody in free agency, but they’re always competitive because they draft and scout well. If the Knicks can draft/scout as well as Utah, we’d be in a really good spot.

  2. A player like Cole Anthony makes a ton of theoretical sense in a line up with RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson as a FVV type player, but it’s so hard to look past those stats and that wingspan. I’d take him in the first round but with the Clippers pick.

    Oh yeah, he’s totally worth the Clippers pick. There’s a non-zero chance that Anthony turns out to be a good player in the NBA. That’s definitely worth a late first.

    I’m cautiously optimistic about Walt Perrin, though. The Utah Jazz attract nobody in free agency, but they’re always competitive because they draft and scout well. If the Knicks can draft/scout as well as Utah, we’d be in a really good spot.

    I mean, they also used top five picks on Dante Exum and Enes Kanter, ya know?

    But yes, I think that the Jazz are, in general, a quality organization, so it’s a smart group to hire a guy from. It’s certainly better than Scott Perry’s organizational pedigree, as a for instance.

  3. I’m trying to figure out everyone’s roles. Perrin and Zanin are responsible for evaluating College and NBA talent, respectively, and they seem to replace Robinson and others who were there before. That still leaves Perry to negotiate deals and contracts. What I don’t understand is what is the new capologist going to do. You need to understand the cap to set strategy but that doesn’t seem like a full time job to me. So what else will he do?

  4. Brian Cronin:
    I mean, they also used top five picks on Dante Exum and Enes Kanter, ya know?

    But yes, I think that the Jazz are, in general, a quality organization, so it’s a smart group to hire a guy from. It’s certainly better than Scott Perry’s organizational pedigree, as a for instance.

    Even those misses turned into valuable enough role players, and those guys will likely play 10+ years in the NBA. The Jazz found All Stars in Gobert, Mitchell, Hayward, Deron Williams and Mo Williams at positions in the NBA draft. That’s kinda what I mean; if the Knicks could just get useful players with their upcoming draft capital they would be in much better position. They didn’t have to draft Donovan Mitchell or SGA instead of Ntiliknox, but they should have been smart enough to take Luke Kennard and Mikal Bridges.

    I don’t expect the Perrin’s Knicks to do stupid shit like find Fred VanVleet, Pascal Siakim, Norman Powell, and OG Anunoby with no lottery picks. Imagine if the Knicks had Luke Kennard, RJ Barrett, Mikal Bridges, and Mitchell Robinson instead of Frank Ntilikina, RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, and Mitchell Robinson though. That is what I’d expect out of competent, Jazz level drafting. One no-brainer in RJ Barrett, one surplus value pick in Mitchell Robinson, and two approximate value picks that show you understand the trend the league is going in with Kennard and Bridges. Those are reasonable expectations I think. We’d be at least 5 wins better just be replacing Ntilikina and Knox with NBA players, and that’s to say nothing of the effect NBA level 3 point shooters would have had on guys like RJ Barrett and Elfrid Payton.

  5. KnickfaninNJ:
    I’m trying to figure out everyone’s roles. Perrin and Zanin are responsible for evaluating College and NBA talent, respectively, and they seem to replace Robinson and others who were there before. That still leaves Perry to negotiate deals and contracts. What I don’t understand is what is the new capologist going to do.You need to understand the cap to set strategy but that doesn’t seem like a full time job to me. So what else will he do?

    This is how I understand it:

    – Perrin is the guy in charge of drafting players and making sure we don’t take Frank Ntilikina over Luke Kennard or Donovan Mitchell.

    – Zanin is the guy responsible for making sure you don’t do dumb shit like make Dennis Smith Jr the crown jewel of your Kristaps Porzingis trade or give Tim Hardaway Jr $70M.

    – Scott Perry helps you do smart things like get 1RPs in trades and attach team options to contract gambles.

    – Brock Aller helps Scott Perry and Frank Zanin assign value to the players they are interested in so that they don’t screw over the cap situation. I think that makes Brock Aller an analytics guy, but in a weird Knicksy way that would have made more sense if he were a real analytics guy.

  6. Who was the Knicks’ cap guy before Aller? Presumably it was one of the three guys who got fired, right?

  7. I’m pretty sure Gerald Madkins and Harold Ellis are the guys Perrin and Zanin are replacing.

    Robinson might just be gone because Mills is gone, rather than being specifically replaced by one of these guys. I’m pretty sure Robinson wasn’t a cap guy, for instance.

  8. Trying to figure out what role all these Knicks’ hires are going to have reminds of when I referee travel basketball, and see 5 dads sitting on the bench next to the kids. And they all stand up during time outs.

    I’d like to see the job descriptions – Dad A – coach. Dad B- assistant coach. Dad C – offensive coach Dad D – defensive coach. Dad E – morale booster coach (for when they’re getting their asses kicked)

  9. I mean, they also used top five picks on Dante Exum and Enes Kanter, ya know?

    Everyone will have their misses, but I think it’s fair to say Utah’s draft record stands out. Not many teams can match Millsap/Hayward/Mo Williams/Gobert/Mitchell without a single top 8 pick during the relevant time frame.

    Even Kanter was a perfectly reasonable choice at the time (just prior to the 3PT explosion) in a weak draft. The Exum draft was an absolute mess too.

    Now, how much of this was attributable to Perrin? I have no clue, but in a few years I suspect we’ll have a much better idea.

  10. I saw an article that said something like “Perrin helped draft all stars like Gordon Hayward and Deron Williams” which is funny because it’s accurate that he was an all star but picking Deron Williams one spot ahead of the best point guard of his generation was a terrible decision. I have no idea how much this guy was involved in that-like I said the other day he seems like a reasonably competent NBA guy-but it’s just funny to see that Williams debacle spun into a positive.

  11. During Perrin’s tenure the Jazz made 24 first round draft picks.

    During that same period, the Knicks made 14 first round draft picks.

    Not all the picks the Jazz made were great, but they didn’t need to all be great. That’s the great thing about getting to pick a lot.

    So hopefully Perrin can convince his bosses of the secret to success. That skill is more valuable than his “scouting ability” or his “eye for talent”.

  12. DRed:
    I saw an article that said something like “Perrin helped draft all stars like Gordon Hayward and Deron Williams” which is funny because it’s accurate that he was an all star but picking Deron Williams one spot ahead of the best point guard of his generation was a terrible decision.I have no idea how much this guy was involved in that-like I said the other day he seems like a reasonably competent NBA guy-but it’s just funny to see that Williams debacle spun into a positive.

    I might be looking at this through Knicks colored glasses, but I’m okay with taking a point guard that Jerry Sloan had to sign off on who also made multiple all star games and peaked as a top 3 (Paul, Nash, D-Will) point guard in the NBA. Passing on CP3 is obviously a bad decision, but taking Deron Williams wasn’t a harmful decision and that’s my focus. I want guys who make good decisions more often than they make harmful decisions. Raymond Felton would have been a harmful decision. Deron Williams was the wrong decision in retrospect but the Jazz still took a guy who turned out to be elite. I think that counts as a hit in the draft even though they passed on a top 5 point guard ever.

  13. hubie – other than house cleaning, work, modeling and sensual interludes with your neighbor – do you have other hobbies? do you get bored easily? why do you engage, when it’s clear the sole purpose of the exercise to to wind you up to dance like a circus bear for the entertainment of others…

    Sometimes (like now) I have a high pressure assignment, the anxiety builds up, and I can’t start it. Those are the days I’m easily agitated.

    Sometimes my work flow is tight and I’m the better version of myself.

    Alas, my neighbor moved to CA for the rest of lockdown, otherwise I would have had more enjoyable ways to work through my professional angst.

    I just crushed a long bike ride and have some meditation scheduled for the morning, so I should be able to channel the energy properly after that. Today I couldn’t get control of it and I wasted it all on a shiny object

  14. Knicks posting highlights today of the game in LA where Houston busted Kobe for 53 points. Also earlier posted about Jamal Crawford’s 52 pt game vs the Heat at MSG. I watched that game, one of the most amazing shooting performances I’ve ever seen, made 16 shots in a row at one point.

  15. Since the year 2000-01, the Jazz have won 7 WC second round games and 1 WCF game. With all the so-called success in the draft, they’ve largely been an average team. Is it possible that we’re so used to being bottom-feeders that we are maybe giving Perrin a bit too much credit?

    He’s clearly not blind or stupid, but come on. The Jazz preferred using an asset to trade up for Trey Burke and passing on Giannis. Hayward’s good and all, but they took him over Paul George. They took Ronnie Brewer over Rondo and Lowry. They took Alec Burks over Kawhi Leonard.

    Maybe if we just let him have input on picks at #25 or later he’s our guy…

  16. ***Knicks posting highlights today of the game in LA where Houston busted Kobe for 53 points.***

    I was at Staples for that game. It was one of the few games I’ve gone to over the past 20 years that wasn’t a waste of money.

  17. ***He’s clearly not blind or stupid, but come on. The Jazz preferred using an asset to trade up for Trey Burke and passing on Giannis. Hayward’s good and all, but they took him over Paul George. They took Ronnie Brewer over Rondo and Lowry. They took Alec Burks over Kawhi Leonard.***

    Picking apart drafts to find mistakes doesn’t do anybody any good, unless it’s a fireable offense type blunder. Every exec is an idiot if you want to frame them that way via the draft. (Jerry West selected Devean George instead of Andrei Kirilenko, what a fool!)

  18. I just mean it’s not cause for optimism beyond “he’s a lot better than bad.” And even if he’s good, he only has input, not final say.

  19. I periodically hate-watch the OAN network just so I know what’s on the minds of complete morons, and sure enough they’re talking nonstop about how great hydroxychloraquine is.

  20. Since Luck seems to be much more crucial than prediction through numbers, interviews and 3 on 3s wouldn’t be a pretty good idea to hire also a gypsy who reads tarrot cards, a fortune teller and an advanced stars astrologer?

  21. OAN – My father used to do that with Fox News – say he was just watching it to see what both sides were saying – and then I blocked the channel.

  22. I look forward to clicking over to the Fox News splash page after a Dem is elected President, just so I can learn about the sanctity of the position of Inspector General, and the importance of Congress as a check against executive power.

  23. Also, yesterday, we spent so much time stamping out Hubert’s HCQ defense, we missed this gem from WetBandit: “NY Times is more of a shill than CNN- the 1619 project is the quintessence of the attitude that made so much of non-coastal white America turn to Fox News and Trump.”

    http://knickerblogger.net/newsday-knicks-finalizing-deal-with-frank-zanin-to-be-assistant-gm-source-says/#comment-698221

    Basically, StickyBandit blames the NYT re-examining the legacy of slavery for causing more racism?

    How about …. examining our racist past exposed how deeply racism is institutionalized in our currently existing society.

    I really don’t want to turn this into Politi-Blogger, but that post by StickyBandit was straight-up ignorant. Shit like that has to be exposed and countered.

  24. NahNah:
    we spent so much time stamping out Hubert’s HCQ defense,

    Other people know I didn’t defend HCQ, right?

    For my own sanity, someone please confirm that the 10 times I said I don’t have an opinion on HCQ are actually there on the page and I’m not hallucinating.

  25. These words exist in you guys’ reality, right?

    I’m not feeding the troll today, but I did finally open up the bag of shrooms this weekend, so anything is possible :)

    Hubert:

    And for the record, your assumption of my take on the hydroxychloroquine was – unsurprisingly – wrong.

    Here’s my take: I don’t have one.

    Everyone reading this thread except you knows that I didn’t say it’s a good idea to take Hydroxychloroquine.

    Again, I don’t have a side in this [HCQ] thing.

  26. “I really don’t want to turn this into Politi-Blogger” Really? — yes, in fact you do. Your posts recently are the exact definition of trolling.

    In internet slang, a troll is a person who starts Flame wars or upsets people on the Internet by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, either for the troll’s amusement or a specific gain.

    You even admit you’re trying to get a rise out of our right-leaning (or far right) posters. We are besieged with stupidity everywhere else. I come here specifically to get away from it. I don’t want to spend the rest of the day reading back-and-forths on this shit. If someone posts something stupid on their own, sure, take them on then and there. But don’t try to get a rise out of them. You do the rest of us a huge disservice. So I’m going to ask nicely one more time. Keep it in your pants.

  27. I really don’t want to turn this into Politi-Blogger

    You could have stayed mum, but now that you’ve denied it, you really need to admit it. Look, we’re in “indefinite offseason” mode, and unlike in past offseasons, the downright immoral actions being taken (or not) by the dipshit-in-chief directly affect our ability to get more basketball. If there’s ever a time to talk politics, to remind people of the staggering incompetence and unmitigated evil of the narcissist currently holding the steering wheel, it’s now.

    Just say, “Yes, this is now a political thread, and I am shoveling coal into its fiery bowels,” and maintain your credibility.

  28. NahNah – Could you relax a bit? I think you are making Wetbandit’s point more than anything else.

    On the subject of racism in America, this Ezra Klein Pod with David Williams was pretty fascinating for me. He talks about all the ways people are using statistics to actually show where the profound difference in racial health outcomes come from, both in general and for Covid-19. Some of it is looking at govt data but there is also a lot of discussion of smaller studies. For instance, there is one showing that young African-Americans with similar daytime blood pressure levels to a control group saw their blood pressure remain significantly elevated at night. Essentially, you can’t rest easy in America. Discusses the concept of weathering in a lot of detail which I was not familiar with. Just a lot of stuff covered in a fascinating way.

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/social-and-behavioral-sciences/2020/05/13/david-r-williams-featured-in-voxs-the-ezra-klein-show/

    I liked the 1619 project but it was quite obviously Pulitzer hunting. Which it got.

  29. Yes, this is now a political thread, and I am shoveling coal into its fiery bowels.

    Point taken. Personal note; I can’t have these debates with the people in my life who are Righties without causing serious family fractures. So if I do it here to blow off steam, apologies all around.

  30. Utah is a small market team where most NBA players would not choose to go willingly. They have never really been bad and most years make the playoffs, which in the West is an accomplishment as you usually have to be a 50 win team or close to it to make the playoffs.

    Considering they are never a free agent destination for superstars, even when they are really good and considering they never bottom out enough to get a top 5 pick, I would say their draft and development history is pretty damn good.

    If the Knicks get to a place where they win 50 plus games and make the playoffs year after year, we WILL be a destination for elite players.

  31. I look forward to clicking over to the Fox News splash page after a Dem is elected President, just so I can learn about the sanctity of the position of Inspector General, and the importance of Congress as a check against executive power.

    You left out the evil of budget deficits

  32. There is an alternative universe where right now Hillary Clinton is being dragged in front of a senate panel investigating her mishandling of the Coronavirus, which killed 100 Americans.

  33. I just crushed a long bike ride and have some meditation scheduled for the morning

    that sounds really good…there’s a bunch of us here with a very competitive nature…it’s what helps us to be successful in many area of life…

    it’s funny, when i don’t feel like addressing an issue or problem at work – i’ll end up wasting a bunch of my time here also…instead of going back and forth with other folks i just ramble about some weird shit that my mind has fixated on…

  34. OAN – My father used to do that with Fox News – say he was just watching it to see what both sides were saying – and then I blocked the channel.

    if it ain’t some cooking or baking competition show ma will often have it locked in on cnn or msnbc when i visit…even though i’m sympathetic to their political perspective – it’s still a little hard to listen to someone yell at the tv…

    i guess it’s cathartic for a lot of folks to see trump up on the screen getting beaten like a pinata…

    i’ve mentioned it a couple of times now – but, the first time i saw OAN (at some fast food joint along 1-40 in arizona) it took me a moment to realize it wasn’t some sketch comedy show…

    content aside, something about the cameras and sets they use make the whole thing look not so legit…

  35. During Perrin’s tenure the Jazz made 24 first round draft picks.

    During that same period, the Knicks made 14 first round draft picks.

    Not all the picks the Jazz made were great, but they didn’t need to all be great. That’s the great thing about getting to pick a lot.

    So hopefully Perrin can convince his bosses of the secret to success. That skill is more valuable than his “scouting ability” or his “eye for talent”.

    Yeah, that’s an excellent point. If Rose can be convinced that more draft picks = more better, than that’d be nice.

  36. “I look forward to clicking over to the Fox News splash page after a Dem is elected President”

    Hmmmmm….. Didn’t you already get to do that in 2008 and 2012? Any more straw men rattling around in that void/echo chamber between your ears?

  37. I am not going to feed the troll. [edit: here i proceed to feed him a treat] If you think that ‘project’ wasn’t stoking concerns for racism in an overall narrative to say ‘america was always based on racism, fine. If you think mainstream media hasn’t become biased crap on both sides, fine. I am just a guy standing here in the middle, half my friends think call me a libtard, half think I’m a fascist republican. I think people come up with their opinions on each issue based on partisanship, not the other way around, and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to find tolerance for people with different views than your own and it’s become increasingly difficult for people to tolerate views that combine criticism and praise of all sides. There is no tolerance of shades of gray.

  38. Look, I know OAN is garbage TV for idiots but it’s still kind of interesting to see the angles they’re working.

    They’re running a full-blown propaganda effort in favor of Hydroxychloraquine. And in tandem with that they’re running a full-blown propaganda effort against Remdisivir.

    What up with that? Why is hydroxychloraquine the “red state” drug, and why is there this very aggressive propaganda campaign for it on Trump’s favorite garbage propaganda channel? This is not a rhetorical question, this is something I legitimately do not fully understand. Is it just the compulsive need for Trump fans to believe he’s always right about everything? I mean it was segment after segment about the hidden awesomeness of Hydroxychloraquine.

    Somebody please explain this to me.

  39. it’s becoming increasingly difficult to find tolerance for people with different views than your own

    For someone who complains about tolerance for people with different views other than your own, you sure seem to have a problem tolerating people with different views other than your own.

  40. Just to tard up this political thread with some basketball….. since no one seems to think there is big time player early in this draft, what about the notion of moving this year’s pick (assuming it is high) to a team who may have a different opinion for a young player in this draft who hasn’t established themselves or may be blocked behind another better player.

    Not saying this is THE player but a guy like Mo Bamba. He can’t get on the floor (16 mpg for 2 years) behind Nicola V and his 100 M for 4 year contract. Bamba’s metrics are pretty efficient averaging 13/12/3.5 per 36.

    More interestingly his 3 ball stats have increased from 27% at Texas, to 30% last year to 36% this year while his FT shooting improved 9% this year over last.

  41. For someone who complains about tolerance for people with different views other than your own, you sure seem to have a problem tolerating people with different views other than your own.

    When did I do that?

    I tolerate absolutely everyone’s viewpoint. I do not tolerate bias from a news source that tries to convey neutrality. I’m confused. Didn’t even think my points were at all controversial.

  42. Perrin seems like a great catch. It’s pretty good if the two times you push to move up in the draft you end up with Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert.

  43. NahNah: Personal note; I can’t have these debates with the people in my life who are Righties without causing serious family fractures

    It makes so much sense now. You don’t read the words on the page because you’re not here to honestly engage. You’re working through your self loathing and patriarchal melodrama.

    You pretend I say something that your father or some other dominant figure would say so you can argue with him. When my reply doesn’t match what he would say, you perform mental gymnastics to reconfigure my position as the one you want to argue against.

    You have irrational hatred of Z-Man, Strat, and Bob N (none of whom ever said anything to deserve the vitriol you spew at them) because they’re older dominant male figures that remind you of your family. Just like you couldn’t keep a job at a law firm because because you’re incapable of working within an authoritative structure where older voices prevail.

    But you come from generational wealth. Old school Republicans who love Reagan and voted for George HW Bush twice. They gave you a trust fund. Paid for law school. Probably pay your rent. That’s why you were able to walk away from steady income and start your own firm. You said here it serves start ups, which we all know is largely code for other trust fund babies using mommy and daddy’s money to run a business into the ground.

    You’re overwhelmed with guilt from the enormous privilege of inherited wealth that’s enabled you to carve out a place in life that’s significantly higher than where your mediocre merit would place you. So you lash out against injustice everywhere to assuage the fact that deep down you truly hate yourself for being born with a silver spoon.

    Damn, bro. You’ve got one helluva journey in front of you. Have fun with that.

  44. BobN, I like the idea in principle, but am really not sure Orlando would trade Bamba for a first round if they had to give up a future first of theirs to do so. I also think that it matters that Bamba is a center. Suppose Wiseman is available at where we pick. Would you trade for Bamba instead of picking him?

  45. bobneptune: Not saying this is THE player but a guy like Mo Bamba. He can’t get on the floor (16 mpg for 2 years) behind Nicola V and his 100 M for 4 year contract. Bamba’s metrics are pretty efficient averaging 13/12/3.5 per 36.

    More interestingly his 3 ball stats have increased from 27% at Texas, to 30% last year to 36% this year while his FT shooting improved 9% this year over last.

    I actually think this draft will have several very good players, if not quite stars, available later in the draft. The fact there’s no consensus hierarchy means we have an opportunity to draft the best player even at 7.

    Generally,when people say the draft is bad this year, they actually mean the top 1-2 picks are bad. Often, the latter picks end up being really strong.

  46. ” Why is hydroxychloraquine the “red state” drug, and why is there this very aggressive propaganda campaign for it on Trump’s favorite garbage propaganda channel? This is not a rhetorical question, this is something I legitimately do not fully understand. Is it just the compulsive need for Trump fans to believe he’s always right about everything? I mean it was segment after segment about the hidden awesomeness of Hydroxychloraquine.

    Somebody please explain this to me.”

    If you would like an actual reasoned discussion I would be happy to engage you to give you the view from the dark side.

  47. since no one seems to think there is big time player early in this draft, what about the notion of moving this year’s pick (assuming it is high) to a team who may have a different opinion for a young player in this draft who hasn’t established themselves or may be blocked behind another better player.

    Not saying this is THE player but a guy like Mo Bamba. He can’t get on the floor (16 mpg for 2 years) behind Nicola V and his 100 M for 4 year contract. Bamba’s metrics are pretty efficient averaging 13/12/3.5 per 36.

    More interestingly his 3 ball stats have increased from 27% at Texas, to 30% last year to 36% this year while his FT shooting improved 9% this year over last.

    I love Bamba, but I don’t think the Magic would move him for the Knicks’ pick, because of the underwhelming nature of this draft.

  48. Explain to me why the rather obvious propaganda network is pimping this drug so hard. It’s weird to me the NEED for some people to believe in this drug.

  49. There is no tolerance of shades of gray.

    no doubt we’re living in an age where more and more people are voicing their opinions through an increasing amount of various social channels…tribe mentality is strong…mainstream and social media has allowed us all to even more easily pick sides…

    just like there are strong incentives for marketing team jersey sales…there are strong financial incentives to market political/social viewpoints…validation of personal beliefs and behaviors plays an important role in all our lives…it’s not surprising people tend to choose sides – and, defend their choice as though their entire reality depended on it…

  50. Bob, I think there are some treasures in this draft, it’s just really hard to identify them (always the case, but especially this year with the truncated season and no obvious stand-outs). I do think Bamba is interesting, but I don’t think it’s worth a 1st rounder (on the other hand I’d trade Knox in a heartbeat). Plus we have Mitch, and almost nothing else — I know BPA etc., but still. It makes my stomach hurt to think of picking players with major skills but also major flaws with the expectation that those flaws will somehow miraculously fix themselves (see LaMelo and a few others this year; but also see Frank, Knox). That’s why Tyrese is still my guy. There’s really nothing he’s bad at, there’s a lot he’s really good at, and his upward trajectory of improvement has been clear and significant, making me think there’s more to come.

  51. Explain to me why the rather obvious propaganda network is pimping this drug so hard. It’s weird to me the NEED for some people to believe in this drug.

    honestly, some how, some way – it’s got to be tied to money…that’s usually the answer to any and most motivating factors not directly related to reproduction, food or shelter…

    in the case of OAN – it seems like that owner on the network (older gentlemen) just got himself fixated on it…

  52. @JK
    Fox News wants people to say that Trump was right all along and is smarter than everyone, and the fake news media is just going to attack everything he does and says

  53. bobneptune: Just to tard up this political thread with some basketball….. since no one seems to think there is big time player early in this draft, what about the notion of moving this year’s pick (assuming it is high) to a team who may have a different opinion for a young player in this draft who hasn’t established themselves or may be blocked behind another better player.

    I like the idea in general but it’s hard to find a guy I would target.

    Bamba is a decent shout. I really liked Wendall Carter going into the draft but he’s had issues staying on the court.

    Two guys on my wish list, who we might not be able to get, would be Lauri Markannen and Lonzo Ball. They’re both a year away from getting paid, so we’re giving up years of rookie scale for assured quality.

  54. I mean I gotta be honest, the fact that OAN is working this so hard has pretty much convinced my that Hydroxychloraquine is complete snake oil. They’re just REALLY thirsty for it to be a miracle cure.

    The flip side of it, that they’re pooh-poohing Remdesivir, is equally strange to me. Why demonize that drug? Because it’s not Trump’s particular chosen drug? Are things really THIS juvenile? Like it’s really gotta be HCQ vs Remdesivir, and only one is the “real” drug?

  55. It makes so much sense now. You don’t read the words on the page because you’re not here to honestly engage. You’re working through your self loathing and patriarchal melodrama.

    You pretend I say something that your father or some other dominant figure would say so you can argue with him. When my reply doesn’t match what he would say, you perform mental gymnastics to reconfigure my position as the one you want to argue against.

    You have irrational hatred of Z-Man, Strat, and Bob N (none of whom ever said anything to deserve the vitriol you spew at them) because they’re older dominant male figures that remind you of your family. Just like you couldn’t keep a job at a law firm because because you’re incapable of working within an authoritative structure where older voices prevail.

    But you come from generational wealth. Old school Republicans who love Reagan and voted for George HW Bush twice. They gave you a trust fund. Paid for law school. Probably pay your rent. That’s why you were able to walk away from steady income and start your own firm. You said here it serves start ups, which we all know is largely code for other trust fund babies using mommy and daddy’s money to run a business into the ground.

    You’re overwhelmed with guilt from the enormous privilege of inherited wealth that’s enabled you to carve out a place in life that’s significantly higher than where your mediocre merit would place you. So you lash out against injustice everywhere to assuage the fact that deep down you truly hate yourself for being born with a silver spoon.

    Damn, bro. You’ve got one helluva journey in front of you. Have fun with that.

    not sure if any of that is true, or, even remotely hits the mark – but, dang was that savage and well said…

    shit nah nah, you really have a way of getting someone’s attention…

    do me hubie…do me next…i got issues, hell i got demons crawling up my ass daily – please, tell me why :)

  56. “BobN, I like the idea in principle, but am really not sure Orlando would trade Bamba for a first round if they had to give up a future first of theirs to do so. I also think that it matters that Bamba is a center. Suppose Wiseman is available at where we pick. Would you trade for Bamba instead of picking him?”

    I am postulating Bamba for the Knick’s pick with nothing else returning. Bamba plays center but per wiki has superior end to end foot speed of Westbrook and the ability to shoot from distance so why not try him at the 4?

    “At the 2018 NBA combine, Bamba measured near 7 ft 1 in (2.16 m) tall and measured a 7 ft 10 in (2.39 m) wingspan, breaking the record that was previously held by current Utah Jazz center Rudy Gobert.[20] At a private workout, Bamba reportedly ran faster than most of the NBA, including MVP Russell Westbrook, since he had a 3.04 3/4 court sprint.”

    As to Wiseman I have no idea how good he is. I DO know with limited minutes Bamba has been statistically above average NBA player …. a defensive shoot blocking force and a good rebounder with an embryonic offensive game which shows hints of solid improvement (FT% and 3 ball) He is an athletic freak who has shown already he can already play in the NBA.

    Wiseman???? I have zero idea.

    Of course… this is just spitballing but if there isn’t someone you love with your high lottery pick, there may be other options than picking someone at 4 who should probably go at 10-15 in a better draft or trade down.

    I just think Bamba is an intriguing dude and is sorta cock-blocked in Orlando. Maybe they are very high on Cole Anthony or Haliburton…..

  57. geo: honestly, some how, some way – it’s got to be tied to money…that’s usually the answer to any and most motivating factors not directly related to reproduction, food or shelter…

    Money is a factor for some parties to be against the drug, too. If we have to treat Covid-19 with something new, that’s a billion dollar drug. If we can treat it with something we already have, that’s a billion dollars off the table.

    You can be certain that the Pharma industry is desperate for HQC to be denied. Whether they have influence over politicians, media, and government agencies is a matter of opinion. But their desire is clear as day. This is the kind of thing that can mint a new Rockefeller, and they don’t want it taken away.

  58. “Explain to me why the rather obvious propaganda network is pimping this drug so hard. It’s weird to me the NEED for some people to believe in this drug.”

    First of all the Obvious propaganda network isn’t the only one out there. Hannity is a hack. Ingrham is a dyed in the wool conservative, but at least shes smart (Dartmouth, U Va law, former SC law clerk) so she actually brings on competent lawyers on and debates issues with a conservative slant. Carlson is a conservative with a libertarian bent. They are “opinion” “journalists” not news people.

    Baird, Mc Callum and Breem give news fairly straight up certainly more straight up than you will find on CNN, MSLSD or the networks.

    I mean how is it humanly possible for the news outlets to be anywhere near objective when up until 2 months ago Trump was presiding over the best statistical economy ever with zero foreign wars/entanglements and the “NEWS” was 93% negative about him???? it isn’t possible in an objective world.

  59. I like Bamba a lot. Not a fit with Mitch. Not sure why Orlando would let him go though. All arrows are up there. That’s a great factoid about his sprint speed. Lateral quickness is so much more important but I really enjoy seeing a big man in full flight on the fast break.

    I really have no idea what OAN is on about with HCQ but there is a John Oliver show on them that explains the backstory for the network. My sense is they fill the crucial function of making sure Fox News doesn’t slide to the center. I think there have also been discussions about Trump taking it over if he loses the election and making it his baby. Seems crazy but in a world where the National Enquirer turned out to be a crucial player, why not OAN?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnSILVWDKL8

  60. That’s your answer? That Fox News is pretty legit but CNN and MSNBC are not? That’s not a very interesting answer.

    Again. WHY is the kookoo bananas trash pile that is called OAN pimping Hydroxychloraquine as a miracle cure, and pooh-poohing Remdesivir as worthless? Doesn’t that give you some pause about HCQ, if those assholes are working that angle THAT hard? Because to me it sure seems like the best explanation is that HCQ is some sort of red hat snake oil, and there is some VERY motivated reasoning going on with those who are pushing it so hard.

  61. i’ve reached a better place of acceptance and a clearer understanding of the burden of expectations regarding home schooling and working from home…

    that 4 to 5 hours of daily work the teacher assigns – man, if i can get a solid hour and a half of work out of my best buddy – that’s a good day…it drive me nuts, but, so much of parenting seems to devolve to negotiations…letting him listen to the audio version of the book while following along on the pdf version of charlotte’s web…at least he’s able to comprehend and follow the story a little better that way…

    going to work and sitting at my desk for 4 or 5 hours without a break and just focused and grinding away – at the house i’ll go for about an hour or two (which includes the time i spend here) and then i gotta go do something else – cook, clean, garden, exercise, something…

    i can leave the sports and “news” on now while working and mostly ignore it (you’re inspiring me hubie, gonna tune back in to cnbc)…

    god though but do i hate the sound of lawnmowers and leaf blowers…kids yelling, dogs barking, babies screaming, balls bouncing – doesn’t faze me really – lawnmowers and leaf blowers though, gotta walk around and close all the windows for that…ugh…

    yesterday i logged on about 8 am or so, sent the last email at around 9:30 pm…maybe got a decent six hours of work in total…maybe…which pains me greatly to say – is okay…

    saul goodman…

  62. First of all I would dispute the notion the are “pimping the drug so hard”. Fox has two go to doctors: Dr Manny Alverez of HUMC and Dr Marc Siegel a professor of Medicine at NYU/Langone. They have diametrically opposed thoughts on the matter and were both given airtime.

    On Brett Baird’s 6 PM Primetime news Alverez ripped Trump a new one:

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-manny-trump-highly-irresponsible-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus

    Then on Tucker Carlson Siegel gave another point of view which I happen to agree with:

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-manny-trump-highly-irresponsible-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus

    As a sidebar… Dr Siegel’s father is 96 and had Covid 19 and was at death’s door 3 weeks ago. He was given a bolus of Plaquenil and recovered in 24 hours.

    As to Fox’s seeming pro Plaquenil bent it seems fairly simple in March a small study from France came out showing some degree of benefit from Plaquenil:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32205204/

    Since there were no other treatments at the time and the risk profile was well known about this drug from > 30 years of use Trump fast tracked its off label usage.

    Because Trump did something perfectly reasonable THIS SENT THE GREEK CHORUS INTO AN APOPLECTIC FRENZY. Trump didn’t mandate its usage…. he made it legally available and relieved physicians from liability for prescribing. He allowed patients to make informed decisions with their doctors which I think is perfectly reasonable.

    Most of the hosts on Fox seem to believe the American people should be allowed to make reasonable decisions when it comes to their health as does Trump.

    I think that is the main nexus.

  63. I’m not talking about Fox. I’ve specifically mentioned OAN several times. They ran one story after another about the miracle efficacy of HCQ and also said that Remdesivir is fake news.

    Don’t Gish Gallop me, please answer the question that I’m asking instead of the question you wish I was asking.

    Why is this batshit crazy propaganda outlet— NOT FOX NEWS, THE OTHER ONE— running breathless stories about the sheer awesomeness of HCQ? And saying that Remdesivir sucks? Is it your position that they sincerely believe what the science says about these two drugs, or is it for political reasons, such as blowing smoke up Donald Trump’s ass?

    Please answer THAT question, or don’t, but don’t answer some other question that I am not asking please.

  64. “That’s your answer? That Fox News is pretty legit but CNN and MSNBC are not? That’s not a very interesting answer.”

    I didn’t think you would find it interesting …. just likely and anathema. That doesn’t make it any less true. Again…. how is it possible fro 93% of media stories to be negative about trump if they play things straight up? Refresh my memory?

    My answer is Hannity/Ingrham/Carlson are opinion show, not news. You know what you are getting from them before you turn on the dial. Just like I am very sure if Trump cured cancer Ms. Maddow would shriek something like , ” You mean that Nazi killed 1,000 mice and 100 monkeys to do it…. Oh the humanity”

    And yes I do believe Baird. Mc Callum and Breem give more straight up news than the others.

    I mean I just gave you the perfect example on a topic of your choosing where Fox gave absolutely diametric views on a topic of the day. Tell me the last time your favorite networks did that……

    By the way are the certified Liars Brennan and Clapper still on the payroll?

  65. Any of Mo Bamba, Luke Kennard, Mikal Bridges or Devonte Graham would be nice players to add instead of picking in the lottery this summer if we chose to go that route. There are probably some other good candidates but I can’t think of any at the moment.

  66. do me hubie…do me next…i got issues, hell i got demons crawling up my ass daily – please, tell me why :)

    That almost got spit take from me. Almost.
    :-)

  67. Ok I guess you’re gonna pretend OAN, which is the fucking thing I was talking about from the jump, doesn’t exist. Way to play dumb.

    Owned the libs again I guess!

  68. JK47 – I still think the answer is that OAN exists to serve as a check against Fox News saying anything reasonable at all while also positioning themselves to be Trump’s post presidential vehicle. Trump is currently on a total tirade against Fox News, like as of an hour ago he said.

    They repeat the worst of the Democrat speaking points, and lies. All of the good is totally nullified, and more. Net Result = BAD! CNN & MSDNC are all in for the Do Nothing Democrats! Fox WAS Great!

    I think to know why Rendesivir sucks so hard you probably have to go down some QAnon rabbit hole I am too scared to venture in. Or maybe it’s simply because it’s not the one Trump is taking. But the basic idea is to just to go full Trump to borderline psychotic levels at all time and make Fox look like Mother Jones if you can.

  69. ” I’ve specifically mentioned OAN several times.”

    I cannot comment on whatever ONA or OAN is because I’ve never watched it so I will bow out. When you said the ” obvious propaganda network” I assumed you meant Fox. I mean they are the “Great Satan” of the media, aren’t they?

  70. “I care about results, not process,” should tell you everything you need to know about Bob’s authoritarian politics. He licks the boot as well as anyone I’ve seen. Everything is an undue attack on Trump, never justified.

    The very definition of a pathetic bootlicker.

  71. Ok I guess you’re gonna pretend OAN, which is the fucking thing I was talking about from the jump, doesn’t exist. Way to play dumb.

    Owned the libs again I guess!

    I told you above what I thought. When you said the obvious propaganda network I thought you were speaking about Fox…. I catually couldn’t imagine another reference with all the Fox bashing here. Only later in the thread did you switch to OAN and as i said I don’t watch so I can’t comment.

    But thanks for engaging with an open mind. Thanks for coming…..

  72. “I care about results, not process,” should tell you everything you need to know about Bob’s authoritarian politics. He licks the boot as well as anyone I’ve seen. Everything is an undue attack on Trump, never justified.

    The very definition of a pathetic bootlicker.”

    I expect better from you. When the facts are on you side pound the facts, When the law is on your side pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table.

    I’m also not sure about the authoritarian things Trump as done when compared to what has been foisted upon him for having the temerity to soul crush your team.

    Sticks and stones yadda yadda yadda….

  73. Hubert:You’re overwhelmed with guilt from the enormous privilege of inherited wealth that’s enabled you to carve out a place in life that’s significantly higher than where your mediocre merit would place you.So you lash out against injustice everywhere to assuage the fact that deep down you truly hate yourself for being born with a silver spoon.

    Am I overwhelmed with guilt for my privilege in life? You fucking bet. I have dedicated much of my life to understanding structural inequality in our society. And yes, as someone who can process empathy, I have had to struggle with the realization that those very inequalities tipped the scale in my favor. And one of the reasons I bounced (or was forced out) of those law firms was because I continued to challenge the status quo in favor of those who had the scale tipped against them. I risked my sanity fighting for those rights. Ever been fired from a job when you were supporting a wife and a kid on that paycheck? That shit will flip your world around real quick.

  74. Bob, you ever consider not watching any cable news? All your criticisms of CNN & MSNBC are equally true of Fox News. Nobody’s forcing you to watch any of that shit.

    I’m 35, I never really understood the appeal of getting news information from the TV. Just read. TV is more manipulative than the written word. A lot of older people have yet to figure that out.

    It would be way more depressing if the median age of Fox News viewers wasn’t 65 .

    The Iraq war coverage was the nail in the coffin for me.

  75. I mean I ain’t gonna lie, CNN and MSNBC have pretty much morphed into mirror images of FOX. You’re not going to get an argument from me that 24 hour news entertainment is a worthwhile enterprise.

    You can tell though that bob is a connoisseur of FOX News, he seems to know the ins and outs of that particular garbage fire very well. How many hours a day of that crap do you consume, Neptune?

  76. “Bob, you ever consider not watching any cable news? All your criticisms of CNN & MSNBC are equally true of Fox News. ”

    I watch most of that for the entertainment value. I get most of my news from aggregators like Real Clear politics which has a pretty balanced presentation from left and right sources as displayed randomly from this morning’s home page pieces. A good balanced bunch POVs:

    “RCP Morning Edition
    Once Again, Democrats Are Caught In the Trump Trap John Harris, Politico
    Dear GOP: Stop Cowering Before Race Card Attacks Mollie Hemingway, The Federalist
    The Worst Is Yet to Come on Covid-19 Farhad Manjoo, New York Times
    End New York City’s Lockdown Now! David Marcus, New York Post
    The Susan Rice Email Isn’t Any Sort of Smoking Gun Chris Cillizza, CNN
    Flynn Won’t Serve Time–Others May Not Be So Lucky James Robbins, USA Today
    How YouTube and the WHO Are Facilitating China’s Lies Toby Young, The Spectator
    Trump’s WHO Criticism Is an Abdication of U.S. Leadership Michael Bociurkiw, CNN
    Covid Exposes Connectivity Gap, & the Need for 5G to Close It Don Rosenberg, RCP
    Florida Has Succeeded–Partisan Reporters Got It Wrong Gov. Ron DeSantis
    Elon Musk’s Attacks on Lockdowns Are Alienating His Fans Marina Koren, Atlantic
    How Fear, Groupthink Drove Unnecessary Global Lockdowns Yinon Weiss, RCP
    Why I’d Vote for Biden Even If I Believed Reade’s Account Katha Pollitt, The Nation
    Why Dems Are Stuck Playing Word Games Over Tara Reade Kylee Zempel, Federalist
    Tax Probe Unfairly Targets Trump VOA Nominee, Backers Say Susan Crabtree, RCP
    Trump’s Favorite TV Network Is Post-Parody Devin Gordon, The Atlantic
    NYT Rejects Column on Ventilators (Wrong Narrative) Debra Heine, Am. Greatness

  77. Imagine automatically concluding that if someone values social justice, the only logical explanation is because of… wanting to get back at mom and dad?

    It couldn’t be because you care about people other than yourself. Not possible.

  78. “Bob, you ever consider not watching any cable news? All your criticisms of CNN & MSNBC are equally true of Fox News. Nobody’s forcing you to watch any of that shit.

    I’m 35, I never really understood the appeal of getting news information from the TV. Just read. TV is more manipulative than the written word. A lot of older people have yet to figure that out.”

    A lot of older people HAVE figured out a lot of things :-) Probably more than you might expect.

    I am sure you are aware of the quotation sometimes attributed to Mark Twain and sometimes not:

    “When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

  79. “…when up until 2 months ago Trump was presiding over the best statistical economy ever with zero foreign wars/entanglements and the “NEWS” was 93% negative about him???? it isn’t possible in an objective world.”

    Maybe because he’s an extraordinarily manipulative, incompetent, ignorant, narcissistic, lying, sack of human excrement who is a known racist and misogynist (if you have a daughter, wife, or mother you should be ‘negative,’ unless you’re totally okay with stupid wealthy shitheads grabbing them by the pussy), tears families apart and releases children across the border without their parents, has or is rolling back 100+ pieces of environmental legislation, not only denies climate change but actively works to make it worse, is in bed with and/or publicly announces his admiration for the most horrific authoritarian leaders around the globe, and is attempting to emulate them here at home by dismantling our democratic system, piece by piece. And zero foreign wars/entanglements is some wild revisionism of the last two years. For some of us it’s not just about a humming economy, bobbie. It’s my son’s economy. And his son’s. It’s our country. It’s the pride we no longer take in it, because we’re a global embarrassment.

    And fuck you, NahNah. Now look where we are. Thanks a lot.

  80. Hey now Raven.

    Owen and THCJ woke up this morning and started with the politics. I stirred the pot, but I didn’t start this. You can scroll up and check for yourself.

  81. ” Ever been fired from a job when you were supporting a wife and a kid on that paycheck?”

    Nah…. no one has ever been fired from a job where their family depended on it. You are the first person that has ever happened to.

    Suck it up…. tape a fucking aspirin to it. Do you have any idea how silly that sounds?

    And what you suffered as a highly paid person is precisely why Trump won Pa, Oh, Wi. Mi , Ia, Nc. Fl and almost Mn.

    The rest of the middle class got tired of shipping jobs overseas and flooding the remaining job market with low skilled low paid potential employees as competition to depress the wages for the low skilled jobs left.

    Your party used to be the party of working middle class people…. it is not the party of the robustos and the bustos with no one in the middle.

  82. I’m not big into politics but for the life of me I can’t understand how people actually support Trump. I won’t even bad mouth his supporters because I know quite a few people who I consider to be very smart who love Trump. Let alone all the Republicans who back in 2016 when Trump was running for the nomination all knew this was going to happen and basically said we can’t have this man become president because it would ruin the Republican party let alone the country yet now every single one of them kiss his ass and defend him like crazy. It’s mind boggling to me.

  83. Yes, I started all this with a crack about blocking Fox News on my fathers tv. And by posting a link to Ezra Klein.

    Huck the Feck

  84. Maybe because he’s an extraordinarily manipulative, incompetent, ignorant, narcissistic, lying, sack of human excrement who is a known racist and misogynist (if you have a daughter, wife, or mother you should be ‘negative,’ unless you’re totally okay with stupid wealthy shitheads grabbing them by the pussy), tears families apart and releases children across the border without their parents, has or is rolling back 100+ pieces of environmental legislation, not only denies climate change but actively works to make it worse, is in bed with and/or publicly announces his admiration for the most horrific authoritarian leaders around the globe, and is attempting to emulate them here at home by dismantling our democratic system, piece by piece. And zero foreign wars/entanglements is some wild revisionism of the last two years. For some of us it’s not just about a humming economy, bobbie. It’s my son’s economy. And his son’s. It’s our country. It’s the pride we no longer take in it, because we’re a global embarrassment.

    Let’s just say I stipulate all of the above is true other than incompetent . I don’t see how you can be considered incompetent while lording over the best economy ever and keeping us out of foreign entanglements. I mean those are the presidents two most important roles.

    Stipulate he is a detestable person…. I’d probably agree. That doesn’t argue against the results. One can be an effective executive while simultaneously being a scum bag. He hasn’t done a single thing “extra legal” yet the Hitler comparisons are everywhere in the media.

    He has had to suffer through the yellowist of yellow journalism since the Spanish American War foisted by “wise men” like Clapper and Brennan who spilled bile every day for years on tv calling Trump being “handled” by Putin and “Treasonous” yet when the were under oath neither could come up with a single shred of evidence to back their claims, and that’s factorial!

    Rinse and repeat/////

  85. I expect better from you. When the facts are on you side pound the facts, When the law is on your side pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table.

    Facts? A fucking Angry Fox News Uncle has the temerity to talk about facts? That’s rich.

  86. “I’m not big into politics but for the life of me I can’t understand how people actually support Trump.”

    Because they mostly didn’t like what they perceived as the country sliding into an inexorable decline. He argued to staunch the supply of cheap labor swarming across the border to depress lower middle class wages. They didn’t think ISIS was some indefeatable inevitable force of nature. They didn’t like kowtowing to the Mullahs and giving them eleventy billion dollars in cash so they could foment unrest in the middle east. They didn’t like out NATO allies not ponying up for their own defense. They didn’t like the results of NAFTA and the TPP.

    to paraphrase Yul Brenner from The King and I ,”Et cetera….. etcetera…… et cetera!”

  87. “Facts? A fucking Angry Fox News Uncle has the temerity to talk about facts? That’s rich.”

    You are the one spewing bile and hate…. not moi….. I am happy as a clam :-) But keep pounding that table…. I’m sure your slappy friends all agree in unison

  88. “keeping us out of foreign entanglements.”
    Just stop it. Yemen. Syria. Iran. There’s more, but why bother. 2019 had the highest US military death toll in Afghanistan in five years. As someone who’s spent a lot of time in Afghanistan in the early 2000s, his loosening restrictions on land mines is the equivalent of another war all by itself in terms of the carnage that will be inflicted on people for years to come.
    Willful, purposefully stupid statements are really bad optics. So stop it.
    That’s why I’m peeved at you, NahNah. I want to argue about Cole Anthony, not this garbage. I’d rather argue about KP. Melo. Five Chandlers. Anything.

  89. Well Bob, all I can say is that you have lower standards for Presidents than anyone on this board has for Ntilikina.

  90. Raven, stop putting this all on me. Take some responsibility. I already acknowledge my part and have apologized for it multiple times above. You are keeping it going all by yourself. You are also going up against Bobby N, a terribly disingenuous poster who is never backing down. Hell, he just touted Trump’s handling of the economy, and conveniently forgot to mention the current economic conditions.

    I went after Wet Bandit, a more centered poster fully capable of defending his position on the NYT and its coverage of slavery.

  91. “keeping us out of foreign entanglements.”
    Just stop it. Yemen. Syria. Iran. ”

    I must have missed it but have we invaded Iran, Yemen or Syria?

    We did justifiably and very measuredly spank Assad twice for dropping chemical weapons on his opponents and he seemingly backed off from that . We also assassinated an Iranian head of the Kuds forces which only the slappiest of the slappies would look upon as a bad thing. Are you suggesting Trump has been into the adventurism of the two preceding POTUSs.

    I’m sure you guys were all expecting Trump to be Dick Cheney on streoids but you obviously didn’t listen to him during the campaign. Sorry he disappointed y’all.

  92. Raven: That’s why I’m peeved at you, NahNah. I want to argue about Cole Anthony, not this garbage.

    Didn’t you hear? This is Owen’s fault.

  93. “Bobby N, a terribly disingenuous poster”

    How am I a disingenuous poster. I am fairly consistent in my POVs. And I certainly don’t make it seem like I was the only person in the universe with a wife and kids ever to be let go….. I’m not that delusional and self absorbed.

  94. ***I don’t see how you can be considered incompetent while lording over the best economy ever and keeping us out of foreign entanglements. I mean those are the presidents two most important roles.***

    Warren G Harding presided over a period of great economic growth and enjoyed minimal foreign entanglements. Yet he’s universally considered one of the worst presidents ever because he was a corrupt, morally imbalanced man whose economic policies couldn’t be sustained and ended in a Great Depression.

    (It’s also ironic that you point to economic growth and relative world peace because Bill Clinton got impeached by the Fox News crowd despite having both boxes checked, himself).

  95. Cheney was a colossal asshole, but he did manage to clear the very, very low bar of being functionally literate.

    “The president veers off on tangents and getting him back on topic is difficult, they said. He has a short attention span and rarely, if ever, reads intelligence reports, relying instead on conservative media and his friends for information. He is unashamed to interrupt intelligence officers and riff based on tips or gossip he hears from the former casino magnate Steve Wynn, the retired golfer Gary Player or Christopher Ruddy, the conservative media executive.”

    So is there some weird feedback loop going on here where Trump gets his news from OAN and Fox and they get their stories of the day from whatever he tweets, ad infinitum and ad nauseum? Except, of course, for the hot tips on foreign affairs from retired golfer Gary Player.

    (quote is from Jowles’ NYT link)

  96. No wonder Bob and Don are in such lockstep. They feed their minds with the same bullshit.

  97. (It’s also ironic that you point to economic growth and relative world peace because Bill Clinton got impeached by the Fox News crowd despite having both boxes checked, himself).

    Newt Gingrich was pretty honest about the fact that Bill Clinton committed the greatest political sin of all: not being a Republican.

  98. From Jowles’ article:

    The president veers off on tangents and getting him back on topic is difficult, they said. He has a short attention span and rarely, if ever, reads intelligence reports, relying instead on conservative media and his friends for information. He is unashamed to interrupt intelligence officers and riff based on tips or gossip he hears from the former casino magnate Steve Wynn, the retired golfer Gary Player or Christopher Ruddy, the conservative media executive.

    Mr. Trump rarely absorbs information that he disagrees with or that runs counter to his worldview, the officials said. Briefing him has been so great a challenge compared with his predecessors that the intelligence agencies have hired outside consultants to study how better to present information to him.

    Yeesh. And not at all surprising.

    A lot of our problems could be solved if we just created a new elected position: the glorified national spokesman. Then people like Trump can run against people like Mark Cuban and Oprah Winfrey for a position that has no power but satiates the public’s need to settle arguments via a national election.

    And then the rest of us can vote for some boring person who can handle the job of running the executive branch, preferably a governor or a general, or someone with actual experience governing.

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