SNY.com: Knicks Mailbag: What would you do as the team’s GM?

Ian Bagley did a mailbag at SNY and he had an interesting question about what he would do if he were made GM of the Knicks with a relatively long term contract:

@Bennie_Blanco: Play the GM role and tell us what moves you would make to improve next season
How many years do I have on my contract? If I have long-term job security, I’m using my picks to draft players, continuing to try to find a strong young core to build around and one that’s attractive to free agents. If I’m on a short-term deal, I would, selfishly, take more of a ‘quick fix’ approach to try to get this team in the playoffs ASAP so I can keep my job.

For argument’s sake, let’s say I have a five-year deal with a team option for the fifth season.

In that case, I’d look for a lead guard who can knock shots down with my lottery pick. I think this type of guard can benefit Robinson and Barrett. I’d also look for a perimeter shooter/big man who can shoot later in the draft (New York has a late first-round pick and early second-round pick).

Again, I’m thinking of benefitting Barrett and Robinson – and balancing out my roster – with these selections.

I’d use my cap space this summer to do one of the following: trade for an unwanted contract and acquire draft picks/young players in the deal; overpay for a young player in free agency by offering a big-money, short-term contract; if OKC will agree to a deal that doesn’t include future draft picks or Barrett/Robinson, trade for Chris Paul and see if he is open to restructuring his contract (if it’s allowed under the next CBA). Getting Paul on the roster will jumpstart the Knicks’ effort to build a winning culture and benefit New York’s young players exponentially, I think.

No one on my roster would be totally off limits in trade talks. If the opportunity to trade for a young, ascendant star presented itself, I’d be open to packaging picks/young players to get the deal done.

Lastly, depending on how the offseason goes, I would sell my roster on the idea of trying to make the playoffs in 2020-21. This, ideally, would engender a winner’s mentality among the young Knicks. But I wouldn’t be upset if we ended up in strong lottery position again in 2021, when the draft is expected to include several talented players.

I think some of those ideas are a bit contrary to each other (“I’d take on players for draft picks, but also trade for Chris Paul’s gigantic contract without getting anything in return”), but for the most part, I think Begley’s take on the future of the team is reasonable enough.

What do you folks think about his ideas?

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866 thoughts to “SNY.com: Knicks Mailbag: What would you do as the team’s GM?”

  1. Swift, I hope you know that out of a desire for internal consistency, it is still my solemn duty to roast you for, you know, liking the Knicks and thinking they’re ever going to be good. It’s just a bad take, through and through, so I will be here to remind you that the Knicks will never be good until Jim Dolan is banned via executive order from the state of New York.

    On the plus side, my phone is no longer producing smoke when I load the thread. It’s a good day in KB Land.

  2. The most interesting statement is the one about Chris Paul. There is certainly the possibility that Rose sees him as a great PR move with limited long-term consequences, and the more I think about it, the more likely it seems. One would think that Paul is still hungry for a championship, so he’d probably not be on board with the Knicks, but who else can eat that horrendous contract for 2 years?

  3. Paul basically means writing off the Giannis Sweepstakes, if not all the marquee free agents next summer. Which might make it an oddly healthy move. He’d make the team better in the short term, and possibly in the long term if you believe that guys like Mitch and RJ and this years picks need a great point guard to fully unlock their potential.

    That said, I still probably wouldn’t do it.

  4. I’ve said this before but given how truncated next season looks like it will be, this “off-season” is the easiest punt decision of all time.

    I was a fan of Paul before the world changed, but now just take advantage of this gift and set yourself up to make moves in the summer of 2021. Noah will be gone by then. Randle’s deal will be non guaranteed for the following season. Knox and Frank will have been decided.

    It’s a great opportunity to do nothing – unless a complete no-brainer deal falls into your lap – and a terrible time to pay a premium to make a splash.

  5. Unless someone is paying through the nose to unload Paul I can’t see it being realistic. And I can’t see him being happy here. As I have said before.

    As for what I would do as GM? Hope to get lucky in the draft.

  6. Owen:

    As for what I would do as GM? Hope to get lucky in the draft.

    Sadly, this is the wrong draft. Even more reason to suck for the 2021 draft.

  7. I’d be fine with doing nothing. And Rose is afforded patience right now, both by Dolan and the fan base. But new GMs tend to have itchy trigger fingers.

    The low-key moves re: Harper and Pinson were a good start. It looks superficially like the team is prioritizing defense, speed, 3pt shooting and IQ. But these guys are so low on the depth chart, who knows?

    The draft will tell us a lot. So will decisions on the team options. So will the first few days of free agency. I’m not a big fan of overpaying Christian Wood or FVV. I’d rather pay a known commodity like Bertans. I also think that trading Randle should be a priority. If it takes Paul to do that, I’d have mixed feelings, but damn, I’d sure rather watch Paul running the offense than Randle spinning his way into another turnover.

  8. I’m looking at a list of UFA in summer of 2021. Tons of player options at the top (Paul, LeBron, Kawhi, Griffin, George) that will likely be accepted, since a shrinking cap would limit how much they could re-up for. And neither Griffin ($38.9M) nor Paul ($44.2M) will be offered anything close to what they’re promised in 2021-22, so luckily, the Knicks likely won’t be able to fuck themselves by offering them contracts.

    After that, there are:

    Hayward
    Conley
    Lowry
    DeRozan
    Otto Porter
    Holiday
    Gobert
    Davis
    Drummond
    Adams
    Giannis
    Aldridge
    Batum
    Oladipo
    THJ (lol)
    Schroder
    Fournier
    Dieng
    Portis
    Danny Green
    Iguodala
    Oubre
    James Johnson

    And a bunch of other people not worth talking about. If I were running the show, and I never would, because I’m not totally incompetent, I would mark 2021 as not an opportunity to make a splash in free agency, but to absorb unpalatable contracts for the teams jockeying to sign some collection of the above players.

    I mean yeah, if you have an opportunity to sign Giannis and Davis — meaning that they have agreed to team up, and express publicly their desire to come to NY — then you do it 10 out of 10 times and start selling off draft assets to fill out the team with shooters and defenders. But that seems totally unlikely.

  9. ess-dog: Sadly, this is the wrong draft. Even more reason to suck for the 2021 draft.

    Well, getting lucky in this draft is probably less about winning the lottery than in other drafts. I mean, is there a single guy that you would surely pick 1-3? Even LaMelo is a huge leap of faith. I think that there’s a better than 50% chance that the best player in this draft is picked at of after our draft spot. So getting lucky is successfully identifying that guy. Or picking a Mitch-level sleeper at one of the lower picks we have.

  10. Thank you, everyone, for the support. It means a lot.

    I’m of 2 minds when it comes to CP3. On the one hand, he’s still REALLY good and it feels like we could get him from OKC without giving up any young players or picks and might even get back a pick. Plus, next season will be truncated and then he’s an expiring contract and maybe by then a contender would trade for him at the deadline for a final championship push. Plus, even if we draft a PG like LaMelo, that PG won’t be ready to lead right away and having CP3 as a mentor could be huge for that player (plus you can always roll with 2 PG line ups).

    On the other hand…its a huge contract. And if next year’s draft is so much better, it might be wise to have one more year of sucky basketball to get through to get one more lottery pick.

    But then again, we have the extra Dallas pick and second rounders plus with the Corona hurting teams financially, it might be easier the next few drafts to throw cash towards some teams to move up.

    Here is what I would look to do.

    1. Hopefully draft LaMelo or Halliburton.
    2. Trade Randle
    3. Sign Gallo to a short term deal.
    4. Maybe package our second rounder or some cash with our clippers pick to move up in the draft this year for our second pick. Pick a stretch 4.
    5. Bring back Elf (I know) and Taj and Bullock. Let Ellington go.
    6. Resign Dot to a team friendly deal. Same with Harkless
    7. Bring Iggy and Wooten up to the big boy team.

    Roll with this team:

    Halliburton or LaMelo/Elf
    RJ/Frank/Dotson
    Harkless/Bullock/Iggy
    Gallo/Knox
    Mitch/Taj/Wooten

    This team wouldn’t be very good but you’d have lots of youth, better spacing than this last season and you’d probably get a lotto pick. I do Gallo over someone like Wood bc I think Gallo would be a fun reunion and is a good comp for Knox.

  11. set yourself up to make moves in the summer of 2021. Noah will be gone by then.

    Noah’s cap hold is like his plantar fasciitis – it never goes away. The 6m cap hit will be on the books for 21-22 season. What’s maddening is Noah would have been great mentor for Mitch on how to set picks, defend PnR, defend in space.

    Randle’s deal will be non guaranteed for the following season.

    4m is guaranteed. I still think we should try transitioning him to primary bench scorer at 11m/yr (if we have no better use of cap), If he balks at that role, just let him go.

  12. My condolences Swift and just want to say I’m glad you’re here again.

    I like your plan (Gallo is a fine fit and a fan favorite), but I might want to also draft a shooter like Bane and play RJ more at the 3, although we would probably start Bullock. So in effect, it’s a plan to surround RJ with shooters (Bullock, Haliburton, Gallo) and let him cook.

    Maybe we could even work a Gallo-Randle sign and trade? That might make sense for both teams.

  13. . On the one hand, he’s still REALLY good and it feels like we could get him from OKC without giving up any young players or picks and might even get back a pick.

    I just don’t see this happening. OKC is currently a good team with a ton of future picks. If they trade Paul and a pick they are a worse team and they have fewer future picks. Why would they do that? You might say money, but since the Harden trade OKC has clearly been willing to take on expensive players in order to be good. Of course if they get useful players back they might trade Paul, but trading away useful players is clearly not something the Knicks should be doing.

  14. I’m really interested to see how the Celtics situation plays out. Hayward is opting in for sure and Tatum is up for a max deal. Their mother load of draft picks is pretty much shot. So that will be $100 mill in cap space on Tatum, Walker, Brown and Smart in 2021-22. That does not seem like an ECF team.

  15. The thing we have to factor in is that a lot of teams are going to be financially hurting for a while in the wake of the pandemic. So saving money on bad contracts might be more imperative for its own sake than for cap space, which would give us more opportunities than usual to flex Dolan’s wallet and collect assets. I don’t know that. Paul trade is the best way to do that, but we’ll see soon how much patience and savvy Rose has, given the options he’ll have.

  16. Swift, I hope you know that out of a desire for internal consistency, it is still my solemn duty to roast you for, you know, liking the Knicks and thinking they’re ever going to be good.

    Swift, there’s nothing I could say which would help with your unfathomable loss. BUT there is something I’ll tell you which will help against Jowles. If he ever tries to roast you by bringing up Bargs or your foolish optimism, put him on the grill by reminding him of his MAGA-like devotion to Berri and the horrible defunct WP metric.

    Maybe there is something I could say on a more serious note though. My cousins lost their infant to SIDS. Time is on your side. They were zombies for a period but went on to have a now healthy 2yo. In addition to a support group, maybe consider marriage counseling. A tragedy of this nature often puts great stress on a marriage. Just the two of you airing out your feelings with a skilled facilitator might help preempt any future problems. Also, perhaps contact Jim Cavan for any advice on what helped them. Whatever path you take, your being a naturally optimistic person should stand you in good stead.

  17. The thing we have to factor in is that a lot of teams are going to be financially hurting for a while in the wake of the pandemic.

    This is true. I heard somewhere that the cap for next year is likely to be set somewhere around the cap value for this year, but I think that is an artificial number to avoid the chaos in team cap planning that a sharply lowered cap would cause. It won’t reflect real expected revenue. But once the numbers are in for the coming season, I suspect the cap will have to go down because revenue drops will be obvious. So the time to make trades and take on salaries would be during the coming season when revenue drops are clear but before the trade deadline. That means we should keep our powder dry over the summer and specifically not trade for Paul.

  18. No matter what we do, I do think we should be looking to throw in cash or second round picks to move up, both this year and next, with our later first round picks. With teams being financially hit hard, The Knicks have an advantage cause Dolan is so rich and is still willing to spend.

    So 5 million plus a late first rounder could move us up to a late lotto pick. Or 5 million plus a second rounder could move us up to the late first round. Or 5 million alone could net us another pick. Teams will be strapped for cash and we should be looking to take advantage of that.

  19. I would think that if there’s a player that they especially covet, they will be amenable to spending to move up, sort of like they did for Iggy. But again, this draft is so nebulous, you would have to be pretty high on a given player, or pretty high on something else, to move up.

  20. yeah, but maybe next year’s draft will be the time to make a move like that with the Dallas pick (assuming its a late first rounder). Use the Dallas pick and a second rounder/cash to move up to the lotto and snag 2 lotto picks next year when its supposed to be a really strong draft. Teams are going to be reeling from the financial fallout of covid for several seasons at least.

  21. What’s maddening is Noah would have been great mentor for Mitch on how to set picks, defend PnR, defend in space.

    Yeah, but they’d never be on the floor together and you can pay coaches whatever you want. Tying up any amount of cap space so Noah can whisper in Mitch’s ear on the bench and maybe play 12 MPG? Pass.

    The stretch waive was fucking stupid, but so was the Noah contract. Where’s Deeefense at? I think it’s his cue to come in and defend Phil Jackson.

  22. There are times moving up can be a savvy play (see Doncic, Luka) but I just don’t see it in this draft. There’s almost no order of picks 1-8 or so that would surprise me, and I could be talked into and out of 4-5 different players with the #1 overall pick.

    Maybe if someone like Devin Vassell starts slipping it could make sense to package our two later picks for him, but I don’t see that happening. I see this draft as one where you simply want as many darts as possible.

    As for Chris Paul, it’s a tired discussion at this point. We’ve been over it a million times and I still haven’t seen a single coherent explanation as to what benefits it would bring to the Knicks in the short or long term. To be clear, so we don’t waste a ton of time, there is zero chance OKC unloads him with sweetener. They simply have no urgent reason to do so.

  23. This Athletic piece on Alex Kline, new Knicks hire, is interesting. Apparently he is a juggernaut.

    https://theathletic.com/1902889/2020/07/02/the-equivalent-of-a-lottery-pick-the-meteoric-rise-of-knicks-scout-alex-kline/?source=emp-shared-article

    “They don’t breed people like this,” Winter recalled last month. “Sometimes people take a job and they half-ass it. This kid, at 15 years old, was a gunner and he was out-scooping pretty much 90 percent of the industry who covered college basketball recruiting. I wanted that guy on my team.”

    Last month, the Knicks made the same decision. The franchise hired Kline as a scout, bringing the 26-year-old aboard as team president Leon Rose continues to refurbish the organization in his image. It was a well-received choice for what is usually a little-considered job.

  24. Yeah, but they’d never be on the floor together and you can pay coaches whatever you want. Tying up any amount of cap space so Noah can whisper in Mitch’s ear on the bench and maybe play 12 MPG? Pass.

    I’m suggesting Knicks shouldn’t have waived him. He and Mitch would have been together for the 18-19 season. Noah’s contract then expires and he’s gone – no 6m cap hold for the next 3 years. And the fact that they’re not on the floor together is a plus. Mitch gets to watch him from the bench for 15-20 mpg and Noah coaches him in practices.

  25. Yeah, that’s fair. I do wonder what the market for his expiring contract would have been like.

  26. Sign Gallinari for 2 years.

    The team needs a stretch 4.

    He loves NY.

    NY loves him.

    He wants a multi-year contract (that’s what kept him out of Miami at the trade deadline), but he doesn’t necessarily want a very long contract because he’s on record saying he would like to finish his career in Italy.

    I can’t see how this doesn’t happen other that our management is incompetent.

  27. I can’t see how this doesn’t happen other that our management is incompetent.

    I agree. How would you feel about bringing Phil Jackson back as an adviser?

  28. Well, not coherent basketball or cap-wise certainly doesn’t rule it out. As I said, it would be a PR move more than anything else, and new GMs tend to want to make splashy moves. I agree that OKC is unlikely to package him with picks. So it becomes a matter of 1) will Rose do it (certainly possible) and 2) what will come of it if it happens, i.e. what would be the most positive path from there? (certainly interesting.)

    More generally, it’s pretty limiting to only discuss moves that are in line with what we personally would or wouldn’t do. I agree that it’s silly to discuss the merits of trading draft picks for Griffin or Wall…that would mean that we were in for total insanity and ineptitude. I don’t think a Paul trade is quite that desperate or far-fetched, so even if it isn’t what I would do, I think it’s worth discussing in terms of “if they do it, then what?”

  29. Swift, I just went back to the previous thread and read about your tragedy. I am so terribly sorry for your loss. The closest I’ve ever been to something like that is my sister losing her only son at the age of 8 and a sister in law who’s had two miscarriages, but no surviving children. When friends have children die, I post what I think is the most moving and powerful poem about the loss of a child ever, “On my First Son” by Ben Jonson. Jonson, a contemporary of Shakespeare, lost two young children to the plague, including a son who apparently died on his 7th birthday:

    Farewell, thou child of my right hand, and joy;
    My sin was too much hope of thee, lov’d boy.
    Seven years tho’ wert lent to me, and I thee pay,
    Exacted by thy fate, on the just day.
    O, could I lose all father now! For why
    Will man lament the state he should envy?
    To have so soon ‘scap’d world’s and flesh’s rage,
    And if no other misery, yet age?
    Rest in soft peace, and, ask’d, say, “Here doth lie
    Ben Jonson his best piece of poetry.”
    For whose sake henceforth all his vows be such,
    As what he loves may never like too much.

  30. Danilo Gallinari will be 32 next season and has a long injury history. Hot take incoming, but I would actually not hold it against management if we didn’t give him a big contract covering years in which we’re likely to be bad anyway.

    I also don’t think Phil Jackson was a good executive though, so you should take all of my basketball opinions with a grain of salt.

  31. When I look at the Knicks roster and think about what I would do as GM, I am struck by the shortage of good two way players. Robinson can both defend and score efficiently, although his scoring is limited. Other than that who do we have? So we have to choose, defense or offense first. If we go defense first our lineup is something like Frank, Mitch, Dotson, Bullock and Harkless; a lineup that would be abysmal on offense. If we go offense first, then maybe Randle, Portis, Payton, Barrett and Dotson? That line up probably wouldn’t be good at anything. It’s really hard to pickfor offense since our only go to scorer is Randle and our only volume three point shooter of any reasonable percentage is Portis. From this i come to the conclusion we’re better off focusing on defense, but we are still going to be bad. We should keep Portis even though he’s overpaid because we need shooting off the bench and I don’t see us doing much with the cap space we would free up by releasing him. We should expect to be bad, draft the best player available and hope some if our players get better at scoring (I’m looking at you, Frank, RJ and Knox). It will be painful, but failing some brilliant deal by our management team, that’s what we are stuck with.

  32. I mean, they have to at least hit the salary floor, and what good veteran looking for a ring is going to want to come to the Knicks? Sure, Wood or Bertrans would be better, but I think after last year’s free agency, Knick fans should come prepared with a heavy dose of realism.

  33. I look at our roster and I see a roster that could be decent in a few years except that we lack an ascending superstar and until we get that (legit) superstar, it doesn’t really matter. You can have good players, even decent starters, and still only be ok (if you’re coached well) if you don’t have a star. Until you have a star player, a real superstar, you will never be more than average at best.

    I mean dudes like Dotson, Bullock, Peyton, Randle, Taj, Frank…even RJ and Mitch (who I think both have the floor of decent NBA starter)…all of them would look like good rotation players on a team that had, say, James Harden or The Greek Freak or peak CP3 or peak Durant or whoever. We used to give Ruru a hard time about gravity effect bc he was using it to defend Melo but real, legit superstars like Lebron, etc…do have a gravity affect in that they make their other teammates better just by taking the pressure off of them. Ellington is a decent 3 point shooter when given open looks but looked like garbage on a team with poor spacing, bad 3 point shooting and no star players. James Harden draws so much attention on offense it makes everyone else’s job easier. Hell, peak Melo with peak Chandler and good ball movement bc of Kidd gave us a 54 win team that maybe could have made the finals if injuries didn’t derail that team.

    So we need a superstar and hopefully we draft one in the next few drafts cause until that happens, it won’t really matter if we get decent role players or not. We should slot RJ and Mitch in as starters for the future but I don’t think we can pencil either of them in as stars in the making. I think for both you are looking at fringe all star players at their peak though Mitch could still surpass that if he really takes some leaps forward.

    So use those extra picks, those second round picks and that cash to trade up the next few years. Tank/develop for one more year. Take on extra salary to get another pick. We need more lotto tickets.

  34. I suppose that one predictably rosy spin on getting Paul would be that it would help eliminate players who some people think would be good if only we had a great PG who put them in a position to be successful. (Or, it would help eliminate that line of thinking altogether when it failed.)

    Another angle is that while Paul ate up cap space, he would increase the trade value of otherwise lousy players. Kind of like playing for the Spurs increased the trade value of their role players.

  35. Another rosy take on getting CP3 I heard was that instead of having 40 million tied up in 3 average veterans, eating minutes otherwise taken by young players, you’d have 40 million tied up in one GOOD player who would make the young players better but there would be more minutes to go around for the young players.

  36. swiftandabundant:
    Another rosy take on getting CP3 I heard was that instead of having 40 million tied up in 3 average veterans, eating minutes otherwise taken by young players, you’d have 40 million tied up in one GOOD player who would make the young players better but there would be more minutes to go around for the young players.

    I think that’s what alsep meant when he said it might be an “oddly healthy move.” But if he gets hurt, it’s a huge short-term albatross…

  37. Off topic but I’m about halfway through Harvey Araton’s When the Garden Was Eden and have learned a ton despite having previously considered myself decently well-versed in Knicks history. This is embarrassing but I’m not sure I knew who Cazzie Russell was before reading.

    Anyway, great book for anyone but especially those who, like me, didn’t get to experience those teams.

    It would be so nice to have a good team, man.

  38. Just in from Woj:

    The NBA is closing in on signing off on a second “bubble” in Chicago for the eight teams that were not invited to play in Orlando, enabling mini-training camps and subsequent games against other clubs with a target date of September, sources tell ESPN’s Jackie MacMullan.

    Does this have any chance of actually working out? Why Chicago?

  39. The greatness of those Knicks teams from a fan’s perspective was only surpassed by Marv Albert’s greatness as a radio play-by-play guy. Home games were not regularly televised so you relied on him to paint the picture for you and you could literally visualize the games based on his brilliance. Same was true for the Rangers radio broadcasts. Breen is a pretty good runner-up but Marv in his radio prime was without peer. And the TV guys (mainly Bob Wolff and Cal Ramsay) were so-so at best, so you would almost rather hear the games on radio.

    What’s really funny is remembering back on how the TV picture seemed pretty clear at the time (and I watched many games on a “portable” with rabbit ears and the back half on that you had to pound on from time to time to unscramble the picture.) It’s crazy how bad it looks on today’s big-screen HD TVs.

  40. Just read about your loss swiftandabundant.
    Fuck…

    A few years ago a cousin of mine lost his 2yrs old first born son after a battle with child brain cancer.
    Despite the devastation he and his wife stood together, never forgot the little boy and found the strength to carry on.
    They have 2 young girls nowadays who both know about their unfairly lost brother and “keep” him in their hearts.

    Life is not fair but goes on….

    My thoughts and prayers are with you man

  41. (Or, it would help eliminate that line of thinking altogether when it failed.)

    Like the theory that veteran mentorship matters in skill development terms, this idea cannot fail, it can only be failed. Unfortunately.

  42. if I was knick GM…i would make sure and keep my resume updated and looking fresh on linkedin…because that is a short lived gig….

    turning this abomination of a roster into anything resembling a winner…hmm…get gandalf and have him wave his wand over it and hope that this years picks turn out to be useful players…ad or giannis decide to come here and then by some miracle we make a few good FA signings and/or trades…and in like two or three years we win 48 games..

    realistically…no matter the GM…with JD around…we will suck for the foreseeable future…

  43. btw on knicks vinly…i have the 69-70 season lp narrated by marty glickman…good shit…

  44. pepper: realistically…no matter the GM…with JD around…we will suck for the foreseeable future…

    I would believe that if it weren’t for the Rangers. Not that they’ve racked up Stanley Cups, but at least they are not a league-wide laughing stock. Let’s wait and see what Rose does. So far he’s hired good people (WWW doesn’t really count) and made a couple of decent bottom of roster moves. And the last move prior to that was ditching Mook for a good return over Mills’ objections. So fwiw the needle is pointed up right now, at least until the next move.

  45. I still want picks, at least 2, from OKC to take back CP3 since few teams will be looking to add $40M to the payroll at this point.

    May be a rare opportunity to improve in the short run and long run.

    No idea if OKC will actually dump salary, but they have to be considering it. They can afford to give up the picks.

  46. I agree with tnfh in that they won’t give up picks just to dump him. Now that could change if he demands a trade, but right now they might as well keep him. It’s only 2 years.

  47. If i were Knicks GM I’d go “Crocodile mode”.
    Wait in the mud till a team “In Need” gets near me.
    Patience is my name.
    Lurking is my game.

  48. Swift, I’ve been thinking about you a lot today. I don’t know you in real life but it does feel like one of my “real” friends has suffered a great loss and I feel sick about it. And in turn that’s been making me think about this blog and how much I value all of the people here. This is really a great community and I have lots of respect for all of the regulars here. It’s a smart and soulful bunch.

    In that light I want to apologize again to wetbandit, if you’re reading, for saying some pretty insulting things about you a few weeks back. My emotions were running kind of high and I was out of line. You’re not a bad person and you didn’t deserve that. I’m truly sorry and I hope you’ll accept my apology.

  49. things are little busy at work; but, i’ve been reading what everyone has been writing and thinking all morning as to what moves i might make as knicks’ GM…

    i still got nothing…back to work i guess…

  50. I’m really interested to see how the Celtics situation plays out. Hayward is opting in for sure and Tatum is up for a max deal. Their mother load of draft picks is pretty much shot. So that will be $100 mill in cap space on Tatum, Walker, Brown and Smart in 2021-22. That does not seem like an ECF team.

    Yeah, I don’t think they handled things incorrectly, per se, but it sure hasn’t worked out great for them, either.

  51. there is always so much more that connects us than what separates us…physical characteristics, personal experiences and beliefs, personality (not sure if your personality is actually a physical characteristic or not) are meaningful, but, not the whole of it when it comes to community participation…

    i know it’s weird – i always keep in mind that we all gotta get up and shit (if you’re lucky and things are flowing smoothly inside) in the morning…it kind of puts things in perspective for me…the fact that many of you are trusting enough to share your life – definitely helps me to see the world a little clearer…

    if mike k and bc do nothing else of any significance in life (i’m sure they have and will do more) – creating and maintaining this community is a job well done…i know i lean on you all quite often…

  52. The NY Knuckleheads should hope they are in the same position 3 years from now that the Celtics are in now.

  53. swiftandabundant,

    I haven’t been reading the message board much, I just learned about your tragedy.

    I can’t imagine the kind of pain you and your wife are going through. There are no words I can say to help ease the pain. I’m so sorry. All I can say is that I care. I hope the pain eases and I hope you have another child that can bring you the joy you deserve.

  54. Oh, no doubt, the Celtics are fine in a general sense. They are likely to be very competitive for years to come. I’m more saying that 5 years ago they looked like a lock for a dynastic run, and now it looks like that isn’t necessarily going to happen. And as Brian said, they didn’t really do anything wrong and actually made some absolutely brilliant moves. Hayward’s injury, and Isaiah’s injury sure didn’t help, but they definitely played it very conservatively and never swung for the fences for a true max superstar when they had the assets. It seems like Ainge just refuses to even consider overpaying in any single transaction. Not sure if that is always a good thing.

  55. Ainge may suffer from paralysis by analysis.

    He’s one player away from serious contention. He’s needs a good center. They have some young players that may develop into what they need, but they don’t need that much.

  56. jiminy al – you should have warned us about that guy’s mug jumping out at us once we clicked…that kind of scared me sober there for a second or so…

    honestly, i think we all are quite aware – that when the rest of the league zigs, we’re gonna zag…considering our roster – no real surprise, although i mean, can’t we at least get 10 warm bodies to throw on our jersey…

    i miss our man frank…

  57. When i press on my cellphone’s central internet “key” i get news related to my recent searches.
    You know: knicks, porn and other serious stuff like cat news, Kardashian news, music, cinema….
    The latest knicks news that i saw (but didn’t press to read the whole article)were:
    Lebron was almost a knick until….
    Jabbar was almost a knick until…
    Doc Rivers is maybe on the knicks coaching list….

    I have the slight impression that they treat knicks fans as experimental hamsters but I’m not sure 100% yet.

  58. @Owen

    Just read the Athletic piece on Kline, and immediately came here to discuss it. Having a prodigy like this on board is exciting. Can’t wait to see how he’ll do.

  59. Would be nice for Iggy, Wooten, and a few other kids to get more game action, but this all seems like such a bad idea, so…

  60. I hadn’t checked in on this site in a couple of days until now and just like everyone else I want to send my condolences to you Swift, I can’t imagine the pain you and your wife are going thru but I wish you all the best.

    This separate bubble for the 8 loser teams might be the dumbest idea ever. Anyway today was a great day just being able to see video of Judge taking BP and Cole on the Yankee Stadium mound blowing 99 mph gas by hitters. Have no idea if the MLB season will be played but man just the site of basically spring training footage was a sight for sore eyes so I hope they can somehow pull off the season. I have no interest whatsoever in this NBA Orlando bubble thing so for me right now it’s all about MLB and watching European soccer.

  61. Z-man
    July 2, 2020 at 9:06 pm
    This bit on P&T is funny!

    The Lonzo Ball clip was epic!

  62. “Pretend the short guy is Marc Gasol” while watching the video gave me a few good laughs!

  63. It just reinforces how much of a crap shoot this draft is, relatively speaking. I honestly think that there will be a whole bunch of NBA rotation players out of this draft, and maybe a few stars, but who the hell are they? If ever we needed a wunderkind scout like Kline on the staff, this is the time!

  64. The other “on the down-low” hire is that capologist guy, Brock Aller. With the cap likely to contract significantly, having brain power in that realm is more important than ever. It Aller can convince Rose to use our cap space to maneuver into more/better draft picks for Kline to do his thing. This will definitely be a thing as teams become desperate to free up space or avoid luxury tax.

  65. To be clear, so we don’t waste a ton of time, there is zero chance OKC unloads him with sweetener. They simply have no urgent reason to do so.

    Why don’t you think money is a reason?

    The thunder are gonna be in some serious financial pain, and they won’t have their usual corporate welfare check to get by on.

  66. Hubert: The thunder are gonna be in some serious financial pain, and they won’t have their usual corporate welfare check to get by on.

    Have you read anything that verifies that they are looking to dump Paul for this reason?

  67. Z-man: Have you read anything that verifies that they are looking to dump Paul for this reason?

    Do I need to?

    TNFH posited that it is an absolute certainty that no reason exists that would cause Clay Bennett to want to offer a sweetener to escape from an $88 million debt in the midst of the worst economic crisis since 1929.

    And you need me to find an article that explains why that might be wrong?

  68. Let’s just sum this up:

    According to TNFH…. If given the choice between a first round pick or keeping $88 million… There is a zero percent chance that Clay Bennett would value the $88 million more than the first round pick.

    That is TNFH’s position.

    And – again – you want me to find an article that explains why he might be wrong?

    You don’t want TNFH to generate any evidence as to why there is a 100% Clay Bennett values *all* Presti’s picks more than $88mm?

  69. Yeah, I think Hubert makes a pretty good point. Given the current landscape of the world and sports, and the specific situation of OKC w/r/t surplus draft picks and location in a podunk market, you can probably extract some real nice assets for taking on the Chris Paul contract.

    I’ll take some real nice assets!

  70. As I posted earlier, I agree with Z-man. at least as far as this summer goes. OKC signed Westbrook to a huge contract to remain competitive. That established their willingness to have a huge payroll if they were good. They are in the same situation now. They have a hugely expensive player, but he makes them a good team. Historically, most large contracts that teams give up picks to trade are for mostly useless players. Not in this case. So you are suggesting that the OKC owner change his team from a mid playoff team in the West to a lottery team and actually pay picks to do that. The NBA sky hasn’t fallen yet, revenue wise. I don’t expect anything to happen to Paul until it does, at the earliest.

  71. If we are going to foray into free agency this offseason, give me either:
    1. Ingram(for Knox and one of the Dallas picks) and Bertans, while trading Randle for a bad deal and a pick.
    2. Bertans and Harris, while trading Randle for a bad deal and a pick.

    Short of that, give me a young PG who can shoot at least 35% from 3, and Jalen Smith with our 1sts- then swing for the fences with our 2nd

  72. I agree that it’s not “certain” that OKC will not add sweetener to dump Paul. But I also think saying that “they are in huge financial pain” needs to be elaborated on. They have a great fan base and with Paul, a decent team. There may be a market for Paul, he’s still a very good player. And they most likely will have to take back salary in a Paul deal. And even if they don’t, there’s a salary floor so since they can avoid being capped out/taxpayers by not keeping their UFAs, they wouldn’t “save” anywhere near $88 million. They would just have more cap space on paper. At most, they’d save $20 mill in salary over 2 years, likely at the cost of thousands of unsold tickets and other lost revenue.

    If Paul tries to force his way out, that changes things, but for now, expecting Paul to come with assets is pure speculation.

  73. One thing that became clear in looking into Paul’s OKC situation is that he is really enjoying playing there and his teammates have raved about his attitude and leadership. And Paul has raved about his teammates and is apparently really enjoying playing there.

    It paints a complicated picture for OKC going forward. If they keep Paul but dismantle the team around him, will he start pressuring OKC to trade him? Do they let Gallo and Roberson go and try to remain competitive by replacing them with lower cost guys like, say, Mook? Do they go into full rebuild mode by ditching Paul and Adams, or just wait until their contracts expire?

  74. “And they most likely will have to take back salary in a Paul deal. And even if they don’t, there’s a salary floor so since they can avoid being capped out/taxpayers by not keeping their UFAs, they wouldn’t “save” anywhere near $88 million. They would just have more cap space on paper. At most, they’d save $20 mill in salary over 2 years, likely at the cost of thousands of unsold tickets and other lost revenue.”

    You never know what another team is thinking. OKC might think they would be better off in the long term signing Bertrans and Van Vleet for 4 years at the same money (or less) the next year that CP3 is making. I just pulled that one out of my keester but they might prefer to spread that 88 million around to 2 very good or 3 good players rather than keep it with an injury waiting to happen?

    Possibilities abound when you have flexibility. Ideally I’d still want to walk away from Harkless and all the 1+1’s (portis, gibson, payton and ellington) and absorb draft picks and expirings if any deal is available. If not leave the space open to facilitate any deadline trade that net assets and if that fails an we are way below the floor then the players on the roster get a big bonus at the end of the season.

    We’re going to have 3 draft picks on next years roster plus Frank, Knox, RJ, MR Wooten, etc that all need PT.

  75. I maintain that OKC will not be dumping Paul with sweetener. I get that COVID changes the cap landscape, but I think the league will institute an artificial cap that isn’t tied to revenues at least for next season as to not disrupt planning around the original projection (e.g. the kind of planning OKC did in determining they can take on Paul’s contract for the next few years).

    After that Paul becomes expiring, and at that point I do believe Presti would be able to talk Bennett into paying the tax for one year as opposed to giving up a first-round pick.

    At a minimum, we know OKC wasn’t looking to dump him with sweetener prior to COVID. There was interest from Miami and others, but the hangup was OKC understandably thought his play made him a positive asset even with his price tag. So to subscribe to this theory you have to think the league will allow COVID to radically disrupt these kinds of calculations. I don’t see that happening.

    So sure, if OKC actually wants to dump him with a first-round pick we’re having an entirely different conversation. I’d take him on under those circumstances. It ain’t gonna happen though.

  76. bobneptune: You never know what another team is thinking. OKC might think they would be better off in the long term signing Bertrans and Van Vleet for 4 years at the same money (or less) the next year that CP3 is making. I just pulled that one out of my keester but they might prefer to spread that 88 million around to 2 very good or 3 good players rather than keep it with an injury waiting to happen?

    Of course you never know. But even scenarios like the one you propose deserve some level of scrutiny. It’s not just about what OKC prefers. Bertans and VanVleet (and other FAs) may have strong reservations about coming to OKC, especially if teams in more desirable venues are bidding for them as well, which is almost a certainty. And why are we assuming that Paul is an injury waiting to happen? He’s had hamstring problems but otherwise has played at least 1700 minutes in every season, including 2000 minutes already this year at an all-star level. I don’t see how overpaying for Bertans and VanVleet is all that much more prudent than keeping Paul around for 2 more years while building via the many draft picks they have collected. But again, the debate here is about how much they would give up to unload Paul. I haven’t seen anything that convinces me that they would give up anything of real value.

  77. Does anyone know what would happen to the luxury tax threshold if the cap shrinks substantially year over year?

    The speculation couldn’t not be more specious and idle than that in this thread, but the Paul contract becomes almost certain to warrant sweetener if the Thunder have to pay $1.50+ in taxes for every dollar over the line. The penalties become incredibly steep after the >$20M mark. They can get to $3.50 or more.

  78. The Honorable Cock Jowles: The speculation couldn’t not be more specious and idle than that in this thread, but the Paul contract becomes almost certain to warrant sweetener if the Thunder have to pay $1.50 in taxes for every dollar over the line. The penalties become incredibly steep after the >$20M mark. They can get to $3.50 or more.

    According to earlybirdrights.com (thanks, pt, love this site!) if the Thunder don’t sign their UFAs (Gallo, Roberson, Noel) and keep everyone else including Paul, Adams and Schroder, they will have a total of $106 million in salary in 2020-21. That’s over $30 mill below the current tax threshold, so no matter what happens with the cap, they will not be in the tax unless they re-sign their FAs.

    That doesn’t mean that they won’t choose get rid of Paul, but they clearly don’t need to include sweetener just to avoid the tax.

  79. Well, if OKC is willing to deal Paul but not with a sweetener, the Knicks should just walk away, unless maybe OKC would be willing to take back Randle, and hopefully DSJ as well.

    But, of course, WWRD. What will Rose do?

  80. TheClashFan: Well, if OKC is willing to deal Paul but not with a sweetener, the Knicks should just walk away, unless maybe OKC would be willing to take back Randle, and hopefully DSJ as well.

    That sounds more like what might happen. Maybe they throw in a 2nd rounder.

  81. ***Makur Maker commits to Howard! That is a little nuts and a little awesome.***

    That’s amazing, I love it.

  82. If the Thunder won’t deal Paul with a sweetener, then we should walk away. Or… perhaps WE can add the sweeteners. Two can play this game, Presti! (I read about it in James L Dolan: The Art Of The Deal)

  83. Donnie Walsh: If the Thunder won’t deal Paul with a sweetener, then we should walk away. Or… perhaps WE can add the sweeteners. Two can play this game, Presti! (I read about it in James L Dolan: The Art Of The Deal)

    lol

    I agree that we should walk away. But if we don’t, to be honest, it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to see CP3 in a Knicks uniform.

  84. I’m reading Just Mercy. Sure, there’s no institutional racism in this country. Right.

  85. My apologies, Z-Man. The salty asshole version of myself took over my phone at 2am this morning. I should have made my point without being a dick.

  86. KnickfaninNJ: So you are suggesting that the OKC owner change his team from a mid playoff team in the West to a lottery team and actually pay picks to do that.

    Yes, because there will probably be considerably less financial incentive to be a playoff team.

    Is it reasonable to expect the 2020-2021 NBA season will generate strong gate revenue for good teams?

    If everyone is playing in a 25% full arena, you’re not a title contender, and you’re cheap… Why not cut costs?

  87. Hubert, we just disagree on this. OKC has shown a recent history of not being cheap. And owners in general Strongly want to win. It’s important to their fans too.

  88. Hubert: My apologies, Z-Man. The salty asshole version of myself took over my phone at 2am this morning. I should have made my point without being a dick.

    No sweat, Hubert. Honestly, I took no offense to either your points or your tone. Just disagree with your premise, for the reasons I stated, i.e. boiling it down to $88 mill vs. draft picks is overly simplistic and not really accurate. But I agree that it isn’t a certainty that OKC doesn’t choose to do a sweetened deal.

  89. Is it reasonable to expect the 2020-2021 NBA season will generate strong gate revenue for good teams?

    If everyone is playing in a 25% full arena, you’re not a title contender, and you’re cheap… Why not cut costs?

    that’s a good point, incoming revenue will change dramatically without any or much fewer fans in attendance…

    I can’t remember what the number is, but, I thought I had seen that 40% of the league’s revenue comes from game attendance…

    honestly though – I think if we were to swap julius and DSJ for cp3, DSJ would suddenly “put it all together” and mesh perfectly with schroder and SGA, randle would become an offensive force and cp3 would totally turn in to a pumpkin…cuz, well, knicks…

    yeah, maybe do nothing of significance for next year, try to draft well and stay with these 1 year deals with options…

  90. OKC might actually go all in and use some of their picks to become MORE competitive. Maybe they’ll let gallo walk and go after Wood or use Gallo in a sign and trade with picks to get another really good player… They have some options.

  91. Tillman Fertita’s Rockets may look to sell on assets if you consider he made his money in hospitality and he used half of his net worth to buy the Rockets.

    If James Harden hit the market that would really be wild, huh? I’d definitely bet that he’s the owner doing the worst right now.

  92. “Fuckin kumbaya around here these days”

    I can end that easily:

    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/02/michigan-henry-ford-health-study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-lowers-covid-19-death-rate/5365090002/

    Cliffs Notes:

    The study analyzed 2,541 patients hospitalized among the system’s six hospitals between March 10 and May 2 and found 13% of those treated with hydroxychloroquine died while 26% of those who did not receive the drug died.

    https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

  93. Maybe bob can tell us why he has a boner about that study but is far less tumescent about this study:

    Yes … I suck! I’m happy there is a 50% increase in survival with a therapy. WTF is the matter with me.

  94. Yeeeeeah bob, we can all tell that really you’re just very desperate for the Donald Trump broken clock to be right about something.

  95. The league will freeze the cap or something similar.
    They aren’t going to screw teams and players over. They’ll probably also provide very quiet financial assistance to teams that need it. The worst outcome for the NBA is things falling apart in catastrophic ways.

    I don’t think you’ll see big moves or significant advantage being taken this summer. The league definitely doesn’t want to give the impression that a team had to trade a big contract to survive financially. It’s not even obvious the vestigial playoffs will take place. There probably won’t be a normal season next year.

  96. bobneptune:
    Maybe bob can tell us why he has a boner about that study but is far less tumescent about this study:

    I
    Yes … I suck! I’m happy there is a 50% increase in survivalwith a therapy. WTF is the matter with me.

    f you read farther on in the news article there are some much less impressive numbers and the article doesn’t explain how the study can have two such different results at the same time.

  97. The league will freeze the cap or something similar.

    This is exactly what it says in the article I linked. They will keep the cap where it is even though they know they won’t hit enough revenue to justify that number. That way teams payrolls will keep their current levels relative to the luxury tax and cap numbers and such. They will increase the escrows taken from the players salaries so that at the end of the season the correct player owner revenue split can be accomplished

  98. “Maybe bob can tell us why he has a boner about that study but is far less tumescent about this study:”

    If you would be kind enough to post the actual Oxford study rather than a description of it I’d be happy to comment.

    The Detroit study gave the hydroxychloroquine to the patients randomized within 48 hours of admission and seemingly that made the difference. It seems if you give it after the cytokine storm has fulminated it doesn’t help.

    Always happy to be of service…….

    You are pretty funny though….. an intervention seems to help critically ill patients and you are angry because it doesn’t fit within your world view.

    Am I happy about it…. bleepin right I am

  99. Wait, so the illiterate president, who knows nothing about medical science, who does not read, who asks for Powerpoint presentations to learn about his own government, who rules virtually exclusively by gut feeling, impulse and flashy sales pitches from TV personalities, who asked on national TV if maybe we could inject a disinfectant into the body, predicted the efficacy of a drug months before one localized observational trial claimed that it reduces mortality?

    Oh, okay. Shit, I almost played myself. Damn, I mean, fuck. How could I have been so blind?

  100. Thanks, Jowles. Now we get to read 150 of the next 300 posts being Bob in his usual nasty and unpleasant about how he’s so much smarter than everyone else while reveling in the attention like a desperate Kardashian in solitary isolation. Much appreciated.

  101. Guys, we’ve been getting along for, like, 24 hours! Why poke the bear?

    what’s wrong al, don’t you like arguing for arguments sake…you may need to learn to distract and guide discussions a little more – left to our own devices – we will always devolve in to a raucous of some sort…

    after all – it is the New York knicks which we care so much about…new yorkers aren’t normally the most mellow of folks…

    i grew up in a house were there was a lot of arguing (until thankfully my father decided to go try on another family)…i can’t stand arguing – it literally makes me sick…i just see no purpose to it…although, i do enjoy watching two humans beat the hell out of each other inside a cage or ring…

    literally the only two humans in the whole world i ever argue with are the two god kids – to which i am consistently reminding them of that fact…i get the dynamic though, it’s there job to push boundaries and it’s my job to try to hold the line…

    anyone else tuning in to hamilton tonight?

  102. JK47
    July 3, 2020 at 6:01 pm
    The Oxford study was a randomized, controlled clinical trial, while the Henry Ford study was observational. Observational studies aren’t useless, but they’re not as valuable as clinical trials.

    https://www.recoverytrial.net/files/hcq-recovery-statement-050620-final-002.pdf

    Hi JK

    in that link there is no information what dosages were used or at what stage of the disease the drugs were initiated.

    The Detroit study speaks of great results under a specific set of circumstances early in the disease at a specific dosage.

    If their results cannot be repeated under similar circumstances then there will be reason to doubt their results as scientific studies need to be repeatable to be valid.

  103. “his usual nasty and unpleasant”

    Really? Do I often call people racists and various other epithets unprovoked? If I do…. I apologize. I am not beyond returning fire, though.

  104. one of my favorite posts ever raven :)

    Ah took a class, it wuz a science course,
    Ah knew a guy, he wuz a astro force,
    Ahm alwuz right, Becuz ahm never wrong,
    Y’all are fools; ah looks good in a thong.

    not only is it spot on – i just love how you put it together phonetically…

    so, we’ve all had the pleasure of witnessing jowles’ glutes of steel in action…next up – we absolutely need to see bob in a thong…there is no doubt, that’d make my day…

  105. Do I often call people racists and various other epithets unprovoked?

    I love the pearl-clutching about calling racism racism.

    Okay, Bob.

    Whatever you say, bud.

  106. There are many different therapies being tried and perhaps some will work, but only hydroxychloraquine has the side effect of “owning the libs” so of course that’s the one that really piques bob’s interest

  107. Bob, the Detroit study you cite quotes both a big difference and a small difference between chloroquine and no chloroquine and doesn’t explain anything about why there are two sets of very differing results. It also doesn’t do any analysis of if there were differences in pre-existing conditions or patient health between the two groups. It’s more like a news article than a scientific paper. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, but you also can’t conclude it’s right. When a full paper is published and reviewed and the result is repeated, then I’ll have confidence in it. Before that it’s one of many news articles about studies that give very different results on chloroquine.

  108. https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext#secsect0120

    “That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, but you also can’t conclude it’s right. When a full paper is published and reviewed and the result is repeated, then I’ll have confidence in it. Before that it’s one of many news articles about studies that give very different results on chloroquine.”

    No… Knicksfan. I posted a link to the actual study published in an infectious disease journal. I assume it is reviewed by the journals editors before it is accepted to be published. Whether it is repeated …. we’ll see in the fullness of time.

    I know if I get Covid tomorrow I will consider being treated with it after consultation with my doctors not because Trump touted it but because there are real published data points that argue it has beneficial effect in early stages of the disease.

  109. ***Really? Do I often call people racists***

    You spent an entire thread RANTING AND RAVING about how racist Owen is, remember that one Bob? I do, because it was peak-level idiocy from the thread-ruining GOAT.

  110. “so, we’ve all had the pleasure of witnessing jowles’ glutes of steel in action…next up – we absolutely need to see bob in a thong…there is no doubt, that’d make my day…”

    Sorry…. no thongs but I’d be happy to send you a picture of me last summer on Fire Island on the beach and you could post it if you care to.

  111. You spent an entire thread RANTING AND RAVING about how racist Owen is, remember that one Bob? I do, because it was peak-level idiocy from a thread-ruining GOAT.

    You’d have to repost it in context of what might have provoked it and I would be happy to comment.

  112. Sometimes I wonder if our current president spends a few hours a day posting on NBA fan sites under the handle “Bob Neptune”. Like Reub and Giana, like Strat and Deeefense, so is it like Bob and Don, personality disorders and all.

  113. How many threads does Bob have to take a shit on before the moderators realize he isn’t potty trained?

  114. bob uses punctuation correctly and doesn’t capitalize random words, so he can’t possibly be Donald T.

    bob’s smarter than the average wingnut, which is kind of like having less plastic surgery than the average Kardashian.

  115. “bob’s smarter than the average wingnut, which is kind of like having less plastic surgery than the average Kardashian.”

    I think damned with faint praise is more concise :-)

  116. No… Knicksfan. I posted a link to the actual study published in an infectious disease journal. I assume it is reviewed by the journals editors before it is accepted to be published. Whether it is repeated …. we’ll see in the fullness of time.

    This is a different link to the one I read. I will read this one, but it will take a little while.

  117. “How many threads does Bob have to take a shit on before the moderators realize he isn’t potty trained?”

    Hey… I just gently tweaked Jowles’ “kumbaya” comment…. y’all didn’t need to melt down because people were actually surviving COVID. I just posted some interesting positive information in this sea of darkness.

    Should the mods choose to ban me I will certainly not reappear with an alias. But I find it pretty humorous when you can’t defeat a position with logic…. bring out the ban hammer, I guess that worked in your universities.

  118. Apropos of absolutely nothing but the site adds current avatars to old posts even if they were under a different name.

    It’s amazing how long we made it without discussing politics. An election, a new season, a Killian Hayes breakout and it will all go back to normal. Maybe.

    Looks like the Redskins are changing their name.

  119. Even my 11-yr-old son has teachable moments…
    “I guess that worked in your universities.”
    Bob, I’m pretty sure that not one of us owns a university. In fact, the only person I can think of who did own one ran it as a scam until it went bankrupt. Who was that guy again?
    When you write stuff like that, it comes across exactly as it is — a pathetic, childish attempt at being insulting. Or, since you asked earlier, a perfect example of your consistently gratuitous “nasty and unpleasant.”

  120. There’s no basketball, there will probably be no meaningful sports for quite some time, the Knicks are mired in a hopeless quagmire of suck, and we’ve pretty much been over all the best ways to cook a steak. But I still like chatting with all of you guys, so what else are we gonna talk about?

    I mean I guess we can go back to shooting the breeze about whether Phil Jackson would have totes succeeded if not for Steve Mills, but that’s way more irritating than talking about hydroxychloraquine.

  121. Ok, I read most of it. It’s a legit study but it has two issues that are significant to me and mean that verification is needed. One is that the two patient groups were quite different in some characteristics. For example the average age of patients not receiving chloroquine was 68 and the average of patients receiving chloroquine and/or Azithromycin was 63. This factor probably helped the chloroquine look better. There were other factors that differed that looked like they might help the un treated patients. It’s hard to tell how the balance of factors will work out. There quite a number of factors in the set of risk factors that had differences so the authors did a regression that used some measure of how much effect they expected each factor to have in order to try and correct for that. I think this is kind of perilous, particularly because of the second problem I see with the study. The second problem is that the authors did some sort of heart test and eliminated patients from the treatment groups if they were viewed as risks for the known heart related side effects of chloroquine and Azithromycin. This was a good thing in that it protected patients who would be vulnerable to heart problems. But, as near as I could tell, they didn’t rule anyone out of the control group (the ones not taking chloroquine or Azithromycin) for heart problems. This probably accounts for the control group being so much older than the treated groups. It has the net effect that the control group was sicker (They had heart problems) than the treated groups. If the control group had more problems to begin with it’s not surprising it had higher mortality than the treated group. So as I said, verification is needed.

  122. “Bob, I’m pretty sure that not one of us owns a university. In fact, the only person I can think of who did own one ran it as a scam until it went bankrupt. Who was that guy again?
    When you write stuff like that, it comes across exactly as it is — a pathetic, childish attempt at being insulting. Or, since you asked earlier, a perfect example of your consistently gratuitous “nasty and unpleasant.””

    No…. it stating that most of you (most) grew up within a particular echo chamber and have chosen to live in a place that is far left of center so it all seems so natural to you. The is a big “rest of the country ” out there.

  123. Of course, Bob. Only 34% of Americans have graduated from ‘university.’ Maybe ‘university’ is an echo chamber. But to me, this site is filled with extraordinarily smart people from across the spectrum — music, arts, medicine, education, business, and on and on. Almost all of them disagree with you. If super-smart people who teach at ‘university’ largely disagree with you, and the (largely amazingly wonderful) people on this site do too, maybe, just maybe, you’re on the wrong side. Or maybe you’re just on the wrong site. I’m sure you can find one that suits you better. I’d ban you because you’re an asshole about your views, not because of your views. But I’d much rather you wander off to a Breitbart site instead.

  124. . I’d ban you because you’re an asshole about your views, not because of your views.

    That is complete BS. you are not comfortable in being challenged about your belief systems because you’ve never had to defend a challenge…. you merely shout them down or expel them.

    If you are saying I don’t back down when US Grant, Teddy Roosevelt, Washington, Lincoln and Jefferson statues are torn down, well…. I’m sorry about your luck. Which is why I hope at some time the country is partitioned and you fellas can live your lives comfortably in unanimity and guys like me can live the way I’d like. You guys have your belief system and guys like me have ours. I don’t want to ram my ideas down your throat and I don’t want yours rammed down mine.

  125. Jeez Bob, I though you of all people could take a joke, especially a fecal one.

    But honestly, no one here is changing anyone’s mind about politics, so shouldn’t we just stick to discussing Grant Riller’s ceiling or Mitch’s trade value (God forbid).

  126. Looks like the Redskins are changing their name.

    What!!!

    been disconnected a bit today, sis is visiting mom, so we’re all getting a chance to spend time together…haven’t checked the news or espn in a day or so…

    good to hear the Redskins are coming to an end…I’ll be honest, back in the day I was pretty bummed to see the Redmen transition to the Red Storm – but, I was pretty ignorant towards shit that didn’t directly involve me…

    thankfully I get it now…I guess enough financial and social pressure finally got snyder to change his mind…I didn’t think he ever would…

  127. bobneptune: I hope at some time the country is partitioned and you fellas can live your lives comfortably in unanimity and guys like me can live the way I’d like. You guys have your belief system and guys like me have ours. I don’t want to ram my ideas down your throat and I don’t want yours rammed down mine.

    A modern day secessionist? How quaint!

  128. A modern day secessionist? How quaint!

    I would say and expulsionist but a rose by any other yadda yadda….

    I want everybody to be happy.

  129. thought about you on my walk bob (ma lives close by some nice trails, which have sadly become crazy popular over the last decade or so)…

    how come you never talk more about gambling…truth is, your personality is hard to deny, you seem very comfortable – being you…not a bad thing at all…you’re sharp enough to know how to get people to engage…I imagine there’s much less “thrill” though in avoiding friction…that static energy though of forces rubbing against one another, hard to deny…

    losing makes me feel way worse than winning feels good (steady philosophy for underachieving in life)…but gambling is interesting: data, figuring people out in cards, playing hunches/feelings…

    you know what would really be interesting – you have me by about a decade – how in the world are you able to manage keeping up with two toddlers?

    just thinking of that seems daunting…

    arguing politics (for the thrill of competition) is even more dull than arguing about god…

    you ain’t changing no-bodies opinion, and there’s only so much to be said, it gets a bit repetitive…

    tell us a story…an original story…

  130. Also, this article on how home field advantage disappears without fans in soccer is really fun.

    I’ve had a chance now to tune in to a few soccer games, I’m not sure why, but yeah the fake fan noise seems to work better for me…

  131. ***No…. it stating that most of you (most) grew up within a particular echo chamber and have chosen to live in a place that is far left of center so it all seems so natural to you.***

    I told you, both my parents are Republicans. I grew up surrounded by Republican office holders, from clerks, to judges, to governors, to presidents. I’ve experienced the Fox News bubble. I broke out. So did my sister. And, I’m happy to say, so have my parents, who, thanks to Trump and the fools that defend and support him, are now ashamed of their party.

    The culture war in this country is fabricated, and it’s fabricated by the far ends of the spectrum on both sides. You have bought into the right’s version, and it’s sad, because unlike the others that have eaten that shit up, you can quote Shakespeare.

  132. The culture war in this country is fabricated, and it’s fabricated by the far ends of the spectrum on both sides. You have bought into the right’s version, and it’s sad, because unlike the others that have eaten that shit up, you can quote Shakespeare.

    I just couldn’t disagree with you more. You may have your own personal experiences and your own epiphanies, but the aren’t universal.

    I believe we are living in a Stephen King novel “The Stand” and after this election there are going to be huge changes either way it falls. if the right wins with Breyer and Ginsberg on life support Trump will jam through another 2 conservatives and a couple of 300 more federal judges which will drive the left bonkers.

    If the trojan horse Biden wins his VP will be President through the 25th amendment within 6 months. The reason Biden is the nominee is the wise men in the party saw all the other candidates were too far left and were unelectable, so the made deals with Mayor Pete, Fauxcohantas, Amy K, et al to drop out simultaneously and allow the only palatable candidate to moderates to win.

    I think even the hard left was surprised how easily the people surrendered their 1st amendment rights when the had a touch of fear about corona virus.

    After the George Floyd incident the crazies took over the “movement and is now engaged in erasing history. The out come of this will not be particularly good. IMO…..

  133. how come you never talk more about gambling

    There are few things more boring than old gambling stories, but I’ve got a few doozies :-)

  134. The reason Biden is the nominee is the wise men in the party saw all the other candidates were too far left and were unelectable, so the made deals with Mayor Pete, Fauxcohantas, Amy K, et al to drop out simultaneously and allow the only palatable candidate to moderates to win.

    This is complete gibberish. How does Elizabeth Warren dropping out of the race help Joe Biden win? That makes zero sense. i mean, duh, her voters are mostly gonna go to Bernie Sanders, which helps… guess who… Bernie Sanders.

    What happened in the Dem primary is that the left wing of the party is a rump, and they’re not big enough to take over. Bernie topped out at like 30% of the vote– not bad, but not enough to win. And African-American voters, who make up a large share of the party, weren’t about to take a chance on Bernie Sanders. They voted for Biden in huge numbers.

    It’s so ridiculous to say it was “the establishment” that put Biden over. I have my argument on this honed like a knife because I’ve had it about a million times with Bernie Sanders supporters.

  135. ***There are few things more boring than old gambling stories***

    Thank you for suddenly caring about what bores the readership of Knickerblogger, Bob!

  136. most interesting topics:
    1). sex, generally though not something to be openly discussed in public, keep your weird fetishes to yourself (although, the vibrating lipstick case was kind of fascinating)
    2). sports…we’re missing the big 3 right now…I’m kind of adjusting to it though
    3). vices – we all have them, it’s good to compare notes sometimes, you know, a little self evaluation on just how fucked up am i
    4). music – you all kill it when you talk about music
    5). food – again, top notch discussion
    6). history, literature, film – check
    7). business and money – personal stuff, but interesting at times
    8). faith – not really the time or place here, divisive topic at times
    999,999). politics – who the fuck really wants to be preached to – about anything…particularly politics…

    actually, not entirely true…I find ingmarr’s discussions extremely interesting…he doesn’t fake care about the shit to have something to talk about…it’s a meaningful thing to him, it comes through, clearly – honest and interesting…

    gets off soap box and goes to bed…oh yeah, ma had a nice lodge skillet and another ceramic iron grill thing for me…mentioned something about being careful though on how you clean the skillet, no soap???

    two nights of eating steamed fish, grilled pork and lots of weird looking vegetables…meat needs to be on the menu very soon…the iron skillet must be fed…

  137. This is complete gibberish. How does Elizabeth Warren dropping out of the race help Joe Biden win? That makes zero sense. i mean, duh, her voters are mostly gonna go to Bernie Sanders, which helps… guess who… Bernie Sanders.

    Once Biden dominated in South Carolina, he was clearly going to be the candidate, but it’s fair to note that the “establishment” likely decided, “Everyone, look, Biden is clearly going to be the candidate now, the only question is whether he will win outright or whether he will have to win it at a contested convention – where he would win it,” so the “Establishment” did then get Mayor Pete and Klobuchar to drop out to make sure that the inevitable would be achieved without a contested convention.

    Again, that was only possible because it was evident from the results in South Carolina, where the African-American voted for Klobuchar in minuscule numbers and probably somehow in negative numbers for Mayor Pete, that neither of those two had a chance going forward, so why cause a contested convention for no reason? So that was involvement by the “Establishment.” It didn’t “decide the election,” though, as it was clearly the African-American voters who made it evident that they weren’t interested in anyone other than Biden. The consolidation just made it easier to avoid a disruptive contested convention (it is important to note that Warren specifically didn’t drop out at first because she was willing to go to a contested convention and hope to make the case that she was the compromise candidate between Biden and Bernie, but then the next results made it clear that Biden was going to win outright, so there was no real point in her sticking around).

  138. “This is complete gibberish. How does Elizabeth Warren dropping out of the race help Joe Biden win? That makes zero sense. i mean, duh, her voters are mostly gonna go to Bernie Sanders, which helps… guess who… Bernie Sanders.”

    Warren got 9 whole percent in NH and NV. She was a non entity. Her healthcare debacle/ miscalculation sunk her long ago.

    Biden finished 4th in IA, an incredible 5th in NH and got beaten by 26.4% by Bernie in NV, The Dem bigwigs were in panic as it looked like Bernie would win. James Clyburn stepped up to the plate to deliver the AA vote for Biden in SC.

    Then mysteriously the day BEFORE Super Tuesday Mayor Pete,Amy K and Tom Steyer all vanished allowing the “moderates” to coalesce around Biden. That was awfully “coincidental”. Who drops out the day before a day when 34% of the delegates including CA and TX are up for grabs????????

    I know…. they just all saw the handwriting on the wall the day before 34% of the delegates were decided. A mere coincidence, I know. Warren dropped out the next day.

    And now you are stuck with a drooler (an actual drooler) as President. Well…. I suppose it better than an avowed socialist in some ways.

  139. I hate these theories that some unknown “establishment” decided things instead a result being the product of many independant personal decisions. We run our whole economy using the latter principle, and it’s a good principle. We don’t assume that some mysterious establishment is fixing prices. Why do we assume the primaries are different.

  140. After the George Floyd incident the crazies took over the “movement and is now engaged in erasing history. The out come of this will not be particularly good. IMO…..

    It does seem like the left’s version of the tea party has gained a foothold and will only be gaining more strength. Biden as a Trojan Horse to a demented wing of idiots is a legitimate concern.

    JK keeps trying to point out the presidential nomination results as proof that the party is moderate but I don’t agree that is a proper benchmark. The Tea Party never had a strong national candidate but their influence was still considerable.

  141. “JK keeps trying to point out the presidential nomination results as proof that the party is moderate but I don’t agree that is a proper benchmark.”

    How can it be classified as moderate if you need to rally the troops to withdraw to knee cap Bernie . And Debbie Wasserman-Shultze and the DNC gave Bernie a hand job last time around, too. But I guess it depends on what the definition of “moderate” is.

    I actually think most of you guys are of good faith and view a Swedish model as being optimal. I don’t object to that other than I don’t think the economy can thrive to the degree we need with a 57% upper bracket and a 15% VAT.

    But I really think you fella are missing the larger point where your desire for some defined sort of social justice has been co-opted by a very radical fringe and I mean a really Marxist fringe. I don’t see how that can work out well.

  142. “We don’t assume that some mysterious establishment is fixing prices. ”

    Wasn’t that the genesis of anti trust law? I give the D’s great credit…. their soldiers fell right into line when the edict was given……

    I’m going to giggle when all you blue dog/moderate democrats find Stacey Abrams is president after the 25th Amendment is invoked in Biden’s first term. The term useful idiots comes to mind. It will be the #1 googled term in 2021

  143. Each of the Democratic candidates decisions to withdraw was understandable given their results in primaries. You don’t have to invoke some sort of cabal to explain them.

    I do agree that the left wing of the Democratic Party has more influence than before. I attribute both their rise and Trump’s rise to the fact that a lot people were really suffering economically in a supposedly healthy economy.

  144. On a completely different matter, it occurred to me that the Knicks might have added coaching candidates at the last minute for affirmative action reasons.

  145. Imagine thinking that the rise of the progressive left is just like the rise of the astroturfed, oligarch-financed Tea Party. Hey, which billionaires are paying staggering sums of money to promote the “tax corporations for once” agenda?

  146. marc berman sniffing glue again…devin booker is now the next big star coming to town…because he was seen at Leon Rose’s son’s bar mitzvah…

  147. Imagine thinking that the rise of the progressive left is just like the rise of the astroturfed, oligarch-financed Tea Party. Hey, which billionaires are paying staggering sums of money to promote the “tax corporations for once” agenda?

    It wasnt the tea party that got Trump elected, it was his positions on immigration and trade. Those positions appealed to different people than tea partiers; not that tea partiers were against them.

  148. Sanders had 100% name recognition, infinite amounts of small donor money and lots of infrastructure that had been built up from his 2016 campaign, and he managed about 27% of the vote and got stomped by a milquetoast moderate opponent with no money and a bare bones organization.

    His diehard fans (and I know many) are demoralized and the smart ones know they took a big step backwards in 2020 and that they definitely overestimated the size and significance of their movement.

  149. Hey, what happened to Conscientious and Entertaining Bob from last night?

    PLEAAAASE, TELL THE GAMBLING STORIES!!

  150. If you don’t think that Trump’s pledges to slash (corporate) taxes and positively gut federal agencies appealed to Tea Party voters, I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing.

  151. Let’s say you’re Amy Klobuchar. You’re running a solid fifth place, and you have little cash on hand. Does it make sense for you, in terms of your own long-term political ambitions, to slug it out until the end, earning the enmity of the candidate (Biden) who looks very likely to win? If the other guy (Sanders) wins, there’s probably no place for you in his administration. Kind of a no-brainer if you’re The Klob, right?

    Sanders’ fans complained because that’s what they do, but he wasn’t entitled to this perfectly calibrated Goldilocks environment where the bigger establishment wing of the party splits itself and he gets the nomination as a rump candidate with like 30% of the vote. That was the Sanders campaign’s stated strategy, and it turned out to be very easy to defeat.

    Because there simply was not enough of them.

  152. The youth vote is unreliable, and Sanders found that out the hard way. I’m not so sure he had a path to the nomination even if Gen Z decided to get off of their Chinese (TikTok) and Russian (FaceApp) surveillance aids for a minute to press a few buttons in a voting booth, but it sure didn’t help that so many kids stayed home on Super Tuesday.

  153. The coalescence behind Biden was clearly urged by the party establishment. But what of it? That’s what political parties do.

    Let’s examine what went on during and in the aftermath of the Republican primary in 2016. Just about every candidate called Trump the scum of the earth and warned that he would be a disaster for the Republicans. 95% of those folks are now kissing and nibbling on his morally bankrupt ass. The moral outrage and disgust they expressed (not to mention the general “family values” horseshit the platform embraces) has been replaced by lockstep obedience and a self-serving obsequiousness that is generally reserved for banana republic dictators. The Republican Party establishment is all in on this radical right-wing nut job (who really couldn’t give two shits about any of them and will turn on them soon enough.) If Trump loses in a landslide and the Republicans lose the Senate, House, and possibly the Supreme Court over the next 8 years, especially as the demographics of the country continue to shift in ways that benefit the Dems, how can anyone in their right mind question why the Dem establishment pressured failing candidates to rally around Biden?

    bob and Trump are just whining that Warren didn’t drop out in time to make Bernie more competitive on Super Tuesday, while Amy and Mayor Pete did. It was a brilliant play bu the DNC, and no amount of spin can undo its impact or split the Dems in their mission to get this asshole out of office. Whatever Joe has lost, he still has enough to look like a savior to enough Hillary haters to rid this country of the putrid stench of Trump’s tens of thousands of lies and Nazi tactics. Who the fuck cares if Biden is president for one day or eight years?

  154. They had a theory of winning that was based not just on strong youth turnout, but on a paradigm-shifting tsunami of youth turnout. It didn’t come close to materializing, and it was foolish to believe that it was going to materialize. It was outright delusional, as a matter of fact.

  155. The same Sanders fanatics who cried bloody murder when Buttigieg and Klobuchar dropped out also cried bloody murder because Elizabeth Warren didn’t drop out fast enough. But the Final Four of candidates turned out to be two moderates (Bloomberg was still in) and two progressives, a completely fair fight. The only way for Sanders to win was for the bigger coalition to split itself. It wasn’t ever going to work.

    The moderate lane of the party had a solid lead over the progressive wing from the jump. I do think that over the next decade the progressive wing will grow as the party and country gets younger, but they’re simply not the dominant force right now. They pick off a seat here or there but they’re very far from critical mass.

  156. Z-man:
    The coalescence behind Biden was clearly urged by the party establishment. But what of it? That’s what political parties do.

    Let’s examine what went on during and in the aftermath of the Republican primary in 2016. Just about every candidate called Trump the scum of the earth and warned that he would be a disaster for the Republicans. 95% of those folks are now kissing and nibbling on his morally bankrupt ass. The moral outrage and disgust they expressed (not to mention the general “family values” horseshit the platform embraces) has been replaced by lockstep obedience and a self-serving obsequiousness that is generally reserved for banana republic dictators. The Republican Party establishment is all in on this radical right-wing nut job (who really couldn’t give two shits about any of them and will turn on them soon enough.) If Trump loses in a landslide and the Republicans lose the Senate, House, and possibly the Supreme Court over the next 8 years, especially as the demographics of the country continue to shift in ways that benefit the Dems, how can anyone in their right mind question why the Dem establishment pressured failing candidates to rally around Biden?

    bob and Trump are just whining that Warren didn’t drop out in time to make Bernie more competitive on Super Tuesday, while Amy and Mayor Pete did. It was a brilliant play bu the DNC, and no amount of spin can undo its impact or split the Dems in their mission to get this asshole out of office. Whatever Joe has lost, he still has enough to look like a savior to enough Hillary haters to rid this country of the putrid stench of Trump’s tens of thousands of lies and Nazi tactics. Who the fuck cares if Biden is president for one day or eight years?

    Well said. FWIW, I don’t see Trump losing in an electoral landslide. He’s still gonna carry quite a few states, inc. the one I live in…

  157. f you don’t think that Trump’s pledges to slash (corporate) taxes and positively gut federal agencies appealed to Tea Party voters, I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing.

    Of course those voters liked Trump, but it wasn’t their votes that put him over the top in swing states and won him the election. It wasn’t those voters that won him the primaries either. There were other Republicans in favor of tea party platforms, but Trump beat them all

  158. Warren was my first choice — she is the most competent and comprehensive re: policy, and her mixed-economy approach matches my own personal politics — and Sanders was my #2, based on his popular support and desire for actual structural change. That said, I will vote for Biden any day of the week. Chomsky was right in 2016 and he’s right in 2020. I would vote for Marianne Williamson. I would vote for John Kasich (if he were the Dem nominee somehow). I would vote for Mitt Romney.

    I do know a couple real-life Bernie Bros (a vocal minority if there ever was one) and their conflation of Biden and Trump is downright maddening. It really is “taking my ball and going home,” except they haven’t bothered to check if they’re even holding anything.

  159. As an enthusiastic Bernie voter/volunteer I feel obligated to point out that literally no fellow supporter I know in real life espouses the kooky views commonly seen on twitter. We were bummed we didn’t pull it out, but none of us think there was some grand conspiracy. Of course we would’ve preferred that Warren make the same calculation as Buttigieg and Klobuchar, but her not doing so is still not a conspiracy. It was just annoying.

    We’re all voting for Biden with no hesitation. We feel good about the trend of the Democratic Party when we look at the age demographics of Sanders supporters in both the 2016 and 2020 primaries.

    The internet makes everyone look worse, except Trump supporters who are actually just bad.

  160. Another huge problem with the study Bob cited, 36% in the neither med group were given steroids compared to 79% in the HCQ group. 39% in the azithro only group compared to 74% in the HCQ+azithro. There’s a very good randomized control trial (Recovery Trial) that indicates dexamethasone decreases mortality, especially in the sickest patients. That and the age difference could easily account for the mortality differences in the study Bob cited. This is why RCTs are crucial and when you already have evidence in the form of an RCT that HCQ doesn’t work a study like this doesn’t move the needle much. The groups were just too different.

    Look Bob, if HCQ turned out to be useful I would be as happy as anyone. Evaluating these studies I really do try to check my bias, going in knowing it Irks me that the president recklessly touted something with little evidence behind it. But the evidence for HCQ remains lacking, and your reveling in this study is misplaced, unfortunately.

  161. ***Warren was my first choice — she is the most competent and comprehensive re: policy, and her mixed-economy approach matches my own personal politics — and Sanders was my #2, based on his popular support and desire for actual structural change. That said, I will vote for Biden any day of the week. Chomsky was right in 2016 and he’s right in 2020. I would vote for Marianne Williamson. I would vote for John Kasich (if he were the Dem nominee somehow). I would vote for Mitt Romney.***

    I could have written this entire paragraph, word for word, about myself.

  162. As an enthusiastic Bernie voter/volunteer I feel obligated to point out that literally no fellow supporter I know in real life espouses the kooky views commonly seen on twitter.

    Agreed. I know a handful of true Bernie Bros and they’re insufferable but many if not most of my real friends voted for Sanders in the primary and will happily vote for Biden in the general. The progressives will have their day and I’m right there with them when it happens.

  163. And the beat goes on, the beat goes on
    Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
    La de da de de, la de da de da

    I don’t know, I guess if you mixed enough sex, drugs, alcohol and rock & roll in to it, politics could, sort of, slightly be interesting…

    at least donald doesn’t deviate from his message…more crazy talk at rushmore…no matter what though, at least a third of the folks whom will vote in november are gonna be down for his dirt drawers, no matter what…

    I’m not that familiar with george wallace…from what I do know, seems like a fitting ending for the trump epilogue…

  164. Sadly, there is not usually a strong correlation between who has the best ideas, who would make the best president, and who has the greatest chance of being elected.

    Biden has a chance to be #3 while filling in boxes #1 and #2 with a prudent choice. Rightfully or wrongfully, Warren is damaged goods politically, as was Hillary before her, and would likely hurt Biden’s chances. I think a non-white female is an absolute necessity, and a choice whose politics largely overlap with Biden’s is optimal strategically. Beyond that, I’m pretty ambivalent.

  165. They had a theory of winning that was based not just on strong youth turnout, but on a paradigm-shifting tsunami of youth turnout. It didn’t come close to materializing, and it was foolish to believe that it was going to materialize. It was outright delusional, as a matter of fact.

    Early on, when the argument was that Sanders was doing better in theoretical matchups with Trump, it was based on an absurd degree of youth turnout. Basically, as you note, effectively a tsunami of new young and independent voters voting who never voted before. This was clearly present in the polls. It said Sanders would lose, like, 5% of the moderate Dems but would add, like, 9% from young voters and indie voters who otherwise would not vote, so Sanders ended up with better theoretical numbers than Biden.

    However, just looking at the numbers, it seemed absurd. For it to work, he had to have historical turnout from people who don’t vote! And sure enough, when the primaries came about, the young voters came out in greater force than normal (Sanders did have a nice turnout from young voters, don’t let people act like the young people didn’t vote. They did), but he needed a tsunami and he obviously didn’t get it. Because, well, obviously, asking for a historically high turnout as the basis for your winning strategy is not a good idea.

  166. The funny thing, of course, is that Sanders would probably be up big right now, too, if he was the candidate. Just by being not Trump.

  167. Sanders became instantly more electable a week after Super Tuesday, when a global crisis led both parties to embrace socialism. (Which is, I guess, why Breitbart News rebranded it “Marxism”)

  168. I dunno, Sanders was not popular with 60% of Dems and 90% of Reps. My guess is that many Trump haters would think of Trump as the lesser of two evils. The word socialism still terrifies non-progressives. No way he’d be at the level that Biden is right now.

  169. I agree Biden is doing better than Sanders would be doing if he were the candidate, but Sanders would still be well ahead of Trump. A half-eaten bologna sandwich would be polling ahead of Trump right now.

  170. Brian Cronin:
    I agree Biden is doing better than Sanders would be doing if he were the candidate, but Sanders would still be well ahead of Trump. A half-eaten bologna sandwich would be polling ahead of Trump right now.

    Fair enough, but there’s still more than ample reason as a liberal/Democrat to be happier that Biden is the nominee. He has a far better chance of winning.

  171. Sanders had 100% name recognition, infinite amounts of small donor money and lots of infrastructure that had been built up from his 2016 campaign, and he managed about 27% of the vote and got stomped by a milquetoast moderate opponent with no money and a bare bones organization.

    His diehard fans (and I know many) are demoralized and the smart ones know they took a big step backwards in 2020 and that they definitely overestimated the size and significance of their movement.

    You’re right, but…

    Not enough support to produce a national candidate does not mean not enough influence to wreak havoc.

    Like I said, the tea party never had 27% of the republican party behind them and they still managed to dictate terms.

  172. The word socialism still terrifies non-progressives.

    Ehhh, it’s lost its punch. Tends to happen when conservative media has labeled every prominent dem pol as a socialist since Al Gore. That’s why they’re getting nutty with the marxism labels now.

  173. The Fed buying corporate bonds and junk bonds isn’t socialism it’s uh….

    It’s a symptom of broken monetary system that advocates of sound money have been trying to get rid of for decades. The Federal Reserve system and central banking are basically a way for the banks and brokers to socialize their risks and transfer wealth from the bottom up when their risk taking goes bad – which imo is essentially reverse Robinhood evil behavior.

    To make matters worse, it’s sold to the sheeple as a way of stabilizing the economy and ensuring employment and low inflation. And the sheeple are dumb enough to buy it while they are bent over taking it where the sun never shines.

    Now back to the Knicks…. They still suck and so does management.

  174. Why don’t we be honest about hydroxychloroquine?

    The French doctor that originally published some data hinting it might be useful spelled out some very specific dosages and timings for when and how to use it to get his results. His paper had many statistical flaws and needed to be evaluated further, but given testimony by others that said they were seeing positive results also, it was studying.

    Since then practically every study has looked at different dosages, different or incomplete drug combinations, and given it to patients at stages of the illness that were different than those prescribed by the French doctor and others that claimed success with various combinations including zinc.

    I don’t know damn thing about medicine.

    However, if someone is telling you the exact dosage, drug combination, and timing of treatment that is working for him and you are doing all sorts of things that don’t match his recommendations you are either being an idiot, trying to prove it doesn’t work, or best case testing other possibilities. The latter is fine, but then if these other tests don’t work you don’t get to refute what the doctor is saying,

    Most likely this drug is not particularly effective at all, but the TRUTH is it was politicized by certain people that imo are fucking scumbags that hate Trump more than they are hoping the drug actually helps.

    That IS the truth!!! .

    Just study it correctly. Don’t use every opportunity no matter how different and flawed the study has been to trash the drug because Trump pushed it. #MediaScumbags

  175. The pandemic is the best thing that ever happened to the democrat’s chances of winning.

    1. It devastated a booming economy and employment across all ages, ethic backgrounds, races, etc…

    2. It keeps Trump from doing his popular live speeches to 10s of thousands of people across the country several times a week

    3. It keeps an early stage senility patient like Biden locked in his basement with a mask on so he doesn’t talk much.

  176. It’s a symptom of broken monetary system that advocates of sound money have been trying to get rid of for decades.

    owen’s heartbreaking ellipsis deserved this so i don’t want to hear any shit about strat lighting this fire

  177. The pandemic is the best thing that happened to the Democrats’ chance of winning because it exposes Trump as an incompetent fool who is only capable of thinking about his own re-election chances and could give one flying fuck about protecting Americans. If Trump had handled it with even a faint modicum of competence he’d be cruising to re-election but he’s Donald Trump so that was never on the table.

    Seniors bailed on him because they know they’re being asked to either never leave the houses again or to just literally drop dead. He gets HORRENDOUS marks for his handling of the virus. He’s the Phil Jackson of pandemic management.

  178. I like how when Joe Biden makes a gaff he has senility, but when Trump, oh, I don’t know, praises scientists for coming up with an AIDS vaccine, or says that Frederick Douglas is still alive, or states multiple times that his Bronx-born father was born in Germany, or says “I didn’t say Mexico would pay for the wall”, or puts his cognitive deficiencies on full display with statements like “In another sense, I tested positively toward negative, right? So no. I tested perfectly this morning, meaning I tested negative. But that’s a way of saying it. Positively toward the negative”, we are supposed to, as virtually every republican on television has said at one point or another: “pay attention to his actions, not his words.”

  179. It’s just desperation. Biden’s been surprisingly teflon so far (it reminds me of something Rick Wilson said about him as to why he felt Biden had to be the candidate – that Biden is such a known entity that you can’t convince people he’s something else), so they are trying whatever they can. Even if it shockingly foolish, like trying to make a Trump/Biden match-up about “cognitive capabilities.” It’s just magical thinking. “Biden hasn’t had a press conference!” Biden then has a totally fine (probably an actually above-average press conference, but let’s be conservative and say it was just “fine”) performance and it’s “Biden had the questions! He had a teleprompter!” when he clearly did not.

    Similarly, these magical thinking morons truly believe that a debate will be some big victory for Trump, despite Biden having had plenty of debates this year so far and being fine in them. We know what will happen. They will debate, Biden will be fine, then Fox News and OAN will tell us how the debate proves Biden’s dementia and then nothing will have changed in anyone’s opinion.

  180. Fair enough, but there’s still more than ample reason as a liberal/Democrat to be happier that Biden is the nominee. He has a far better chance of winning.

    Oh, totally agreed. It’s just funny in retrospect, like how it turned out that Clinton would have easily won in 2008 (despite Obama having the better chance of winning).

  181. “owen’s heartbreaking ellipsis deserved this so i don’t want to hear any shit about strat lighting this fire”

    Yeah, sorry. To be clear, I have no clue why anyone would think that buying energy junk bonds is a better idea than lowering the poverty rate with direct transfers to the most vulnerable. I apologize if anyone thought I was endorsing corporate welfare. I thought it was clear I was not but I have learned over the years I am often not clear. It’s terrible.

    I think that whole thing about Trump being senile based on his speech turned out to be a mistake. According to Daniel Dale anyway who spoke out against it.. May be why that tweet got taken down. I think targeting senility has some electoral downsides.

    How we ended up with a malignant narcissist born with both a silver spoon and a ham sandwich in his mouth as President I’ don’t know. He’s only the second demagogue we have elected and the first was at least competent.

    Get out and vote people.

  182. The main thing is, who is actually NOT going to vote for Biden because they think he’s senile? Clearly this is a referendum on Trump. No one who’s vote is decided right now really cares about Biden’s mental state, and I doubt that anyone still on the fence makes a decision based on that. Things that matter now are the economy, COVID, health care, and police reform. Maybe immigration. Maybe foreign policy. His vice presidential choice is probably the only thing that is connected to perceptions about Joe’s age and mental fitness. Clearly, it’s widely assumed that Joe will not serve 8 years and that if he’s elected, the VP has a strong chance of being president even before Biden finishes his first term. So picking someone who is at least as “teflon” as he is right now is critical. Duckworth might be a great strategic pick. Harris is far less risky than Warren. Rice, Demings and others all deserve strong consideration. But if he picks the right choice, I can’t see him losing any voters between now and November.

  183. Yeah, count me in as a voter who thinks Biden has definitely lost a step and just does not give a shit about that when compared to Trump’s record on, well, everything.

    Also, even if someone is a single-issue senility voter, I would not say Trump comes out as the obvious choice.

  184. Saw on Twitter that today is the 10th anniversary of the Knicks signing Amare.

    By itself, a terrible contract for an oft-injured player who was uninsurable but kicked off our best stretch of seasons in the last 2 decades.

    Without STAT we don’t get Melo or Chandler and we don’t put together that one magical season we were actually good.

    The first half a season with him was incredibly exciting with Amare leading the kids and looking like an MVP candidate briefly.

    Thoughts about Amare signing 10 years later?

  185. Yeah, sorry. To be clear, I have no clue why anyone would think that buying energy junk bonds is a better idea than lowering the poverty rate with direct transfers to the most vulnerable. I apologize if anyone thought I was endorsing corporate welfare. I thought it was clear I was not but I have learned over the years I am often not clear. It’s terrible.

    you were clear. i doubt i have single ally on this board in the great venn diagram of politics, monetary macro and whether charlie ward was a better nba player than allan houston. i don’t think think the pmccf & smccf are usefully thought of as corporate welfare or socialism any more than nba basket height should be thought of as dwarf bigotry. but i am with you and then some on the demagogue.

  186. Amare was a dumb signing, but nowhere near as dumb as the Melo trade. The team was building a young, intriguing team around Amare and blew the whole wad on Melo. Then they compounded the issue by pulling the trigger on the Billups amnesty too soon, netting us Chandler but cementing Amare’s bad contract in stone. So in and of itself it was not a disastrous move, but became one when everything else compounded it. Sort of like the Derrick Rose trade wasn’t horrific in and of itself, only when viewed as part of the horrendous Noah signing and other win-now decisions.

  187. Saw on Twitter that today is the 10th anniversary of the Knicks signing Amare.

    By itself, a terrible contract for an oft-injured player who was uninsurable but kicked off our best stretch of seasons in the last 2 decades.

    Without STAT we don’t get Melo or Chandler and we don’t put together that one magical season we were actually good.

    The first half a season with him was incredibly exciting with Amare leading the kids and looking like an MVP candidate briefly.

    Thoughts about Amare signing 10 years later?

    This is purely theoretical, because the truth was that there was no scenario where the Knicks weren’t going to spend all of their free agency money that season. That said, let’s say the Knicks just don’t sign STAT or any other big name player period that offseason. Let’s say they then decide not to trade for Melo because they’re not in a “win now” position without STAT.

    Tyson Chandler and Chris Paul were buddies and Paul was traded before the following season (he was traded a week after Chandler signed with the Knicks). So let’s say the Knicks trade, I dunno, Gallo, Mozgov and a first round pick for Paul (that’s roughly equal to the Clippers trade). The Knicks then sign Chandler. They still have a bunch of cap space left.

    Are they better off than what they actually had?

  188. I liked amare a lot, not so good on defense, but, he worked really well on the offensive end with his teammates, expect maybe for melo…

    obviously the fire extinguisher thing was a pretty dumb move – who though hasn’t fucked themselves up a bit blowing off some steam, just really bad timing…

  189. donnie’s got me thinking about what it might be like to grow up in a family where politics is a profession…

    seems like most folks in that business are pretty passionate about it…I would imagine a very outgoing and social upbringing…

    I hid in my room a lot :)

    getting ready to hit the trails again…again thinking of donnie – running similiar trails probably not so far from here (gonna be around the day creek channel, it’s cool to be around older homesteads/settlement areas, should be less folks around than the trail going to the waterfall area)…I’m okay traversing flat terrain, the steep inclines with rocks is a bit challenging though, my hips are still sore from friday…I’ve always liked being out in the heat…just wish I didn’t let myself get this out of shape…

    hopefully folks can keep slipping in some tales of fitness to help motivate and inspire…

  190. How about Berman today writing that World Wide Wes was the person who influenced Dolan to fire Grunwald and re-hire Mills. On one hand I’m tempted to say this is going to be another few long years with Rose and WWW because it seems they were hired strictly because of their “connections” which is the same reason given for Mills.

    But I’ve been pleasantly surprised by some of the front office hirings Rose has made that have been seemingly unknown guys who have a very good reputation around the league. Same with the wide cast of coaching interviews, granted Kidd and Woodson were head scratchers plus I’m sure Thibs will still get hired anyway but they have interviewed a ton of highly respected, young asst coaches. So I’m not sure what to think right now about Rose and the future of the Knicks front office, hopefully the newly hired scouts and other front office members have a much stronger voice than WWW.

  191. “I don’t think think the pmccf & smccf are usefully thought of as corporate welfare or socialism any more than nba basket height should be thought of as dwarf bigotry.”

    Going to sleep on this koan.

  192. All you can derive from this is that WWW/Rose had no interest in doing what was right for the Knicks…and honestly, why should they? However, If they now can do as well for the Knicks as they did for even their scrubbiest clients like Bargnani, we’re probably in good hands.

  193. Yeah, Rose ripping the Knicks off constantly when it was his job to rip the Knicks off constantly is nothing to hold against the guy.

  194. I don’t know. I get that idea. I just don’t have a good feeling about it. But I do like some of the hires so let’s see.

  195. I am not convinced that you can smoothly transition from trying to fuck front offices to trying to fuck players.

    I have a feeling our next few years will be “not disrespecting veteran leadership by giving them unfriendly contracts” and looking like that time a few years back when the Heat had like 6 players that made between ten and fifteen million. Solid 43-win squad too.

  196. There are a million reasons to be skeptical about Rose and WWW. I just don’t think their history of screwing the Knicks is one of them. Their future reputations are now going to be tied to their success or failure in this job. It’s no secret how badly Phil’s reputation was hurt by being comically inept as Knicks POBO.

    Agents are the ultimate pragmatists. It seems ludicrous that Rose would transition to the Knicks’ FO just for money, considering that he probably made just as much as an agent and didn’t have to worry about being hung out to dry in the tabloids and being a laughing stock. I guess that you can worry that they will be too predisposed to players that they won’t play hardball. But I don’t think they will get all that sentimental about what’s best for the player. If anything, their gravitas might work well in negotiating, as they might have a good sense of what a particular player might be worth.

  197. The most sickening aspect of the Knicks front offices has been their propensity to negotiate against themselves. From Eddy to Amare to Melo (twice!) to Ron Baker to TH2 to Courtney Lee to Bargnani to Noah to Taj to Portis…seems like every freaking deal we made looked like we paid way more than anyone else was offering. If Rose can just avoid overpaying for players he brings in, it would be a vast improvement.

  198. Say what you want about William Wesley, but according to the Forbes article written by Alex French, he turned Leon Rose into the biggest agent in the NBA in a year. Check this tweet out and listen to the podcast episode if you can. After listening to what Macri and French had to say about World Wide Wes, I’m becoming more and more convinced that we’re vastly underrating how important William Wesley is in NBA circles.

    https://twitter.com/JCMacriNBA/status/1279427784847380480

    I’d like to see a list of all of Rose’s clients, but to be the guy who represented Allen Iverson, Richard Hamilton, LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Karl Anthony Towns, Joel Embiid, Devin Booker, Chris Paul, and Victor Oladipo all because of William Wesley? Signing guys to an agency is definitely way different than actually building a team, but I get the sense that the front office guys like Perrin, Perry, Aller, Zanin, and to a lesser extent Alex Kline will be doing most of the drafting and roster construction while Wes and Rose organize for Joel Embiid and Devin Booker to team up with LaMelo Ball and RJ Barrett. This could all turn out to be another very shitty era in Knicks basketball, but William Wesley and Leon Rose seem like smart enough guys that they wouldn’t come here if they didn’t have a real plan.

  199. And interesting note about Davis Bertans:

    Bertans has had two ACL injuries in the past.

  200. ***There are a million reasons to be skeptical about Rose and WWW. I just don’t think their history of screwing the Knicks is one of them. ***

    I know it’s the honeymoon period, and we don’t want to fail a guy before he’s even taken his first test, but screwing the Knicks was NOT Rose’s job. Especially with regard to Bargnani, who already had his contract. Rose orchestrated that trade to put Bargnani in the situation that he thought would be best for him, and it was in his and his client’s significant interest for the Knicks to succeed. If he knew that trade would be an epic bust for the Knicks, then he’s a shitty agent. As an agent, he gained nothing from the draft pick that went to Toronto, and he gained nothing from Dolan eating $11,000,000 in luxury tax. His only interest in the trade was putting his client in a place he could succeed, and he didn’t. Which doesn’t bode well for his ability to build a successful team as a POBO.

  201. The Raptors were a bad team and the Knicks had just won 54 games. He got his client on to a better team.

  202. I’m sure we can all agree that predicting the next two or three years with any confidence is a fool’s errand. Until we see what they do with cap space, we have no clue. This isn’t exactly a “will Thibodeau play his starters 42 MPG in December” question.

  203. ***The Raptors were a bad team and the Knicks had just won 54 games. He got his client on to a better team.***

    Yes, but as soon as his client became a part of the “better team”, the Knicks won 37 games and the Raptors won 48 games. It didn’t show great foresight on the part of Rose. Again, it was in his interests for that trade to work out for his client. He didn’t do it to “screw the Knicks”.

  204. Donnie Walsh: Yes, but as soon as his client became a part of the “better team”, the Knicks won 37 games and the Raptors won 48 games. It didn’t show great foresight on the part of Rose. Again, it was in his interests for that trade to work out for his client. He didn’t do it to “screw the Knicks”.

    So what was Rose supposed to do? Or not do? Did he need conclude that client sucked and would suck no matter what his situation? Is that what agents do? Maybe thought that Bargnani would be better on the Knicks, i.e on a veteran team where he had a diminished role. Was Rose supposed to talk the Knicks out of trading for him?

    I don’t get how anyone could conclude that Rose did anything wrong, or should have given a fuck about the Knicks making a colossally stupid trade for his client. Responsibility for that trade is 100% on the Knicks. Bargnani’s failures are 100% on him. Rose did his job.

  205. A lot of assumptions in this thread.

    Possible reasons to advocate for the trade to NY:

    1) New York is a bigger market
    2) NYK committed to significant playing time during trade talks
    3) NYK was a better team than TOR the prior year
    4) the belief that NYK offered “better synergy” than TOR
    5) Bargnani preferred to live in NYC
    6) TOR decommitted on Bargnani’s 2013-14 playing time before or during trade talks
    7) (added Z-man’s, which I find totally implausible) taking on a diminished role to improve production — no agent is going to advocate for this, as playing time/PPG is still a driver of contract size, especially for younger players

    I don’t think we know which of these was even a factor, to say nothing of their individual weight on the decision. And although we on KB read the tea leaves that the 48.5 O/U line on the 2013-14 Knicks’ season was hilariously off base, I think it would have been risky to disengage in trade talks on the belief that they would be quite as bad as they ended up being.

  206. i doubt i have single ally on this board in the great venn diagram of politics, monetary macro and whether charlie ward was a better nba player than allan houston

    Throw out your opening salvo. Charlie Ward v Allan Houston is provocative but not outrageous. In other words, it’s precisely the kind of conversation we need right now.

  207. In order jump start an actual basketball discussion about Charlie Ward, I compared him to Ntilikina. It was actually pretty hard to do a fair comparison because Ntilikina entered the league at 19, but Ward didn’t enter until he was 24. Ward’s first season he played less than a hundred minutes and had much worse stats than Ntilikina’s most recent (21 year old) season. Ward’s second season, when he was twenty five, was slightly better than Frank last year, but not by much.

    Honestly, I expected Frank to do worse in the comparison. Given that he should improve over the next three years (because of his age) he’s likely to be at least as good as Ward in a year or two.

  208. The Honorable Cock Jowles: 7) (added Z-man’s, which I find totally implausible) taking on a diminished role to improve production — no agent is going to advocate for this, as playing time/PPG is still a driver of contract size, especially for younger players

    I disagree with you on this. Rose would have to be incredibly stupid to assume that Bargnani would have a bigger role on a team with Melo and Amare (regardless of the truth, indications were that he would recover during the off-season; no one talked about Bargnani as a replacement for Amare.) It was nearly certain that, barring injury, his role would be a third option on offense and possibly coming off the bench.

    As to #2, this seems ridiculous. The Knicks would commit to playing time? They were giving up assets and taking on a big contract. Why would a team do that if playing time was in question? Of course he was going to play.

  209. I disagree with you on this. Rose would have to be incredibly stupid to assume that Bargnani would have a bigger role on a team with Melo and Amare (regardless of the truth, indications were that he would recover during the off-season; no one talked about Bargnani as a replacement for Amare.) It was nearly certain that, barring injury, his role would be a third option on offense and possibly coming off the bench.

    Except Amar’e was already a full-on bench player by this point, not having started a single game during the 2012-13 season, and wouldn’t even start a game until February 2014. Bargnani started 39 of 42 games and an inexplicable 22 of 29 in the following season. So you think this was just a fluke? That it was implied that he would be a bench player, with the Knicks giving up three draft picks, including a 2016 first, but then went on to be a starter by accident, even though Amar’e was healthy early in the season?

    You’re saying that it would have been implausible to believe what actually happened would happen. Kinda tenuous position, don’t you think?

  210. RIP Ennio Morricone who died overnight. Arguably/probably the greatest film composer of all time; the first time I watched The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly changed to way I listened to movies.

  211. As to #2, this seems ridiculous. The Knicks would commit to playing time? They were giving up assets and taking on a big contract. Why would a team do that if playing time was in question? Of course he was going to play.

    I have no idea what you’re trying to argue right now. I offered #2 as one of an intended-to-be-exhaustive list of reasons that Bargnani’s team (or any agent representing any player) could advocate for a trade to NYK (or any team) — and it’s… ridiculous?

    I mean, it may be stating the obvious to say that a player might advocate for a trade based on a promise of significant playing time, but then you say that Bargnani should have had no expectations of even being a starter, despite the Knicks giving up big draft assets for him? (Which Bargnani likely would not have found out until after trade talks had come to a close, as though the Knicks are going to be up front about what they want to give up for him in a trade? Huh?)

    It sounds like the trade market on Bargnani fell through after his re-injury in 2013 — from Bryan Colangelo’s own mouth — and the Knicks paid top-dollar for a scrub, while offering him significant playing time, if not a starter’s role, in the following season.

    Really not sure what your point is.

  212. I guess, but my recollection is that Amare was always promising to be fully recovered by training camp, but it never happened. But even so, was Bargnani’s role any bigger with the Knicks than it was in Toronto? If anything, it was the same or smaller, which would mean that the Knicks reneged on that promise if it was indeed promised. It’s a specious argument any way you look at it, but if you want to believe that anything was promised beyond the obvious, go right ahead.

  213. I don’t think we know which of these was even a factor, to say nothing of their individual weight on the decision.

    For emphasis–

  214. “Honestly, I expected Frank to do worse in the comparison. Given that he should improve over the next three years (because of his age) he’s likely to be at least as good as Ward in a year or two.”

    Charlie Ward is Chris Paul compared to Frank.

  215. vincoug: RIP Ennio Morricone who died overnight. Arguably/probably the greatest film composer of all time

    Bernard Herrmann sez “Hi!”

  216. I’m a Bernie supporter–JK is right about Bernie’s electoral loss. Bernie was banking on giant 18-45 turnout numbers, but turnout is so, so difficult to increase. There just wasn’t enough numbers for Bernie to win once the primary hit the southeast. Corbyn lost for similar reasons in the UK–there just wasn’t enough youth turnout to swing some key districts (especially with the moderate wing of Labour kneecapping him).

    Warren’s dropping out earlier, or Pete/Amy staying on longer wouldn’t have made a difference, because the loss was ultimately due to demographics. 61% of Dem primary voters in 2016 were 45 or above, and 27% of Dem primary voters were African American (a demographic which BIden handily wins except for the young age cohorts). The majority of primary voters are moderate-leaning older Dems. Combine that with the fact that 18-45 year olds don’t vote that much, and it’s clear why Bernie lost. The reasons for lack of 18-45 turnout are various–some structural, some just related to not caring all that much.

    I think it’s impossible for a leftish candidate to win the Democratic primary without significant electoral reform (either the implementation of ranked choice voting, or measures to increase turnout like making elections holidays mandatory appearance at the polls like in Australia, or both). The demographics currently forbid it, and even moderates sympathetic to Bernie (like some of the profs at my institution, who were left-leaning Warren or Biden supporters) are too swayed by strategic voting considerations. I think that’s on balance a bad thing, but it’s not going to get fixed by convincing people to vote for Bernie–it’s going to get fixed by reforming the impressively bad voting system (low turnout, first past the post, often winner take all) that we currently have. Places like Maine and Minneapolis are the model, in that respect.

  217. Some grist for the basketball mill: A draft analyst I like quite a bit published his mock a few weeks ago (no idea why he has Knicks at #1 but ignore that), you can find it here:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WVHKWIHbnw10sDgdU6cPuUI2WqCXGGoueU-gjAO3Dg4/edit

    His top 10 are:
    1. LaMelo
    2. Killian
    3. Okongwu
    4. Ant-Man
    5. Deni
    6. Vassell
    7. Pokusevski
    8. Okoro
    9. Hali
    10. Cole

    My list is pretty similar nowadays, with Hali higher, Cole lower, Pokusevski out, and Kira Lewis Jr. knocking on the top 10

  218. Charlie Ward is Chris Paul compared to Frank.

    You would think so, but when I compared his recent results th Ward’s first two years, the results were surprising

  219. You would think so, but when I compared his recent results th Ward’s first two years, the results were surprising

    Well, I just compared his recent results with Ward’s first two years and the results were that Ward’s were markedly better across the board such that I truly have no idea where you’re going with this one.

    Some grist for the basketball mill: A draft analyst I like quite a bit published his mock a few weeks ago (no idea why he has Knicks at #1 but ignore that), you can find it here:

    I like Cosmis too. That note on McDaniels is just, ugh, definitely true :(

  220. Ok so here is a link and some numbers. The first number is Frank last season and the second is Ward’s second season.

    Mpg: 20.8, 12.7
    FG%: .393, .399
    3P%: .321, .333
    EFG: .459,.475
    FT: .864, .685
    AST: 3.0, 2.2
    AST/36min: 5.2, 6.0
    Pts/36min: 10.8, 11.2
    Usage: 15.4, 19.0
    TS%: .497, .505

    Most of the numbers favor Ward, but only by a small amount, and this is his age 25 season compared to Ntilikina’s age 21 season.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Charlie+Ward&player_id1_select=Charlie+Ward&player_id1=wardch01&y1=1996&player_id2_hint=Frank+Ntilikina&player_id2_select=Frank+Ntilikina&player_id2=ntilila01&y2=2020

  221. Some grist for the basketball mill: A draft analyst I like quite a bit published his mock a few weeks ago (no idea why he has Knicks at #1 but ignore that), you can find it here:

    Maybe he assumes the Knicks will trade up for LaMelo. :)

  222. But Frank has played 3 seasons so why are we not comparing him to Ward’s first 3 seasons why only his first 2 especially since Ward only played 10 games and 44 mins in his rookie season?

    If you look at Ward’s 2nd thru 4th seasons it’s no comparison, Ward in his 4th season started all 82 games with a 57% TS% and he lead the NBA in defensive box plus/minus. Frank is gonna have to make one helluva jump next season (his 4th) to match Ward’s 4th season.

    Ward was an odd prospect considering his age as a rookie and obviously his career as a Heisman winning college football QB. I was not a fan of his at all in his first couple of seasons as the backup PG cause he was an awful shooter and basically started the brawl with the Heat that ended their chances in the playoffs. I did not agree with JVG naming him the starting PG for the 97-98 season with Childs coming off the bench but Ward made an incredible leap that season and became a very good 3pt shooter for the rest of his career. I will always respect Ward for how much he improved as a player during his career even if his public religious beliefs were cringe worthy. But all power to Ward for improving and becoming a solid NBA player for the majority of his career, not bad for a late 1st rd pick.

  223. wow, so wiseman isn’t even a lotto pick now??? that would definitely surprise me…

    i guess there’s a good chance we might be able to draft a “decent” point guard prospect…

    with our late first, i’m kind of hoping for rj hampton (who most likely will not be there), or lewis from ‘bama…

    cbs has us going with deni avdija, 6’9″, 220, why not…

    if i had to guess at who we will actually draft – i go with toppin…

    just looking through a few different draft lists, it’s loaded with guards…

  224. I think Ward is a good upside comp for Frank, who is still younger than lots of guys being drafted this year. The issue with Frank is that he has been a huge net negative for his entire rookie deal, and it is extremely unlikely that he becomes worth what he is getting paid next year. His overall production can likely be replaced by a minimum salary journeyman like Kadeem Allen or Trey Burke for the next 2-3. The odds of him being part of the long term picture are very slim right now. Unless he has a breakout season next year, he will have been a complete waste of a lottery pick. But yeah, he has a chance to be something like a Charlie Ward-level player in his mid-20’s.

  225. But Frank has played 3 seasons so why are we not comparing him to Ward’s first 3 seasons why only his first 2 especially since Ward only played 10 games and 44 mins in his rookie season?

    Because of their ages. Ward played a full four years of college ball. Ntilikina was much younger and had much less experience when he came into the league. That makes them hard to compare. Experience and maturity usually count for something. I handled that by thinking that Ntilikina’s latest season is probably more like what you’d get if you drafted him after a couple of years of college. So I compared the single seasons that I though were most comparable. It’s clearly not a perfect comparison, and you may think differently, but I believe age matters so that is the way I did it.

  226. Yeah it’s actually hard to compare any young player to Ward because as I mentioned he had a very unusual profile when he was drafted into the NBA. Funny thing is I think Ward was highly underrated as a defensive player, obviously those Knicks teams were great defensively but Childs was usually the PG who was credited as being the guy you put on the tougher PG’s and was also used to defend some SG’s too. But Ward statistically at least had some pretty incredible numbers when you look at his DBPM.

  227. There’s no reason to compare Ward and Houston, they are completely different players in pretty much every regard except being born-agains.

  228. I’ve completely soured on LaMelo. He’s been incredibly inefficient everywhere he’s went and his defense is, for lack of a better word, a joke. Sure the passing is nice, but too many other things have to go right for him to become a passable point guard.

    Right now, my top three are Killian, Okwongu, and Deni, and Deni is probably the player with the least amount of “fit” issues among those three. if he’s there between 4 – 9, I’d take Deni. Then I’d take one of the other point guards/wing shooters at 27 or trade up for Terry/Nesmith.

  229. “Someone says “let’s talk about Ward v Houston” and y’all make it about Frank.”

    Ha, problem is any SG will not look as good when being compared to even a decent PG like Ward. Especially a SG like Houston whose entire profile was based on scoring with decent efficiency especially for the era he played in. Both Brian and I have mentioned how much better Houston would have been if he played in today’s NBA where he would’ve presumably taken a bunch more 3pters and been able to get to the FT line alot more. Houston was an excellent 3pt/FT shooter who just didn’t take enough of both, heck in the seasons where he did up his 3pt and FT rate his %’s were even better. Career 40% from 3pt and 86% from the FT line, not too shabby.

  230. The thought in NY at the time of the Bargnani trade was that Amare was injured so often they needed a player to fill his role in the event he got hurt again. That’s where the interest in Bargnani came from. Grunfeld was against the trade but the influence from CAA (which just happened to be Rose and WWW) were in favor of it and pushed Dolan in that direction. It was terrible moves like that that gave us hope when CAA was supposedly finally being exorcised from the soul of NY.

    They were cast out. But, guess what? Satan and his demons are tricky fellows. It looked like the exorcism worked, but Satan is back and he has even more power now than before,

  231. Ok so here is a link and some numbers. The first number is Frank last season and the second is Ward’s second season.

    Mpg: 20.8, 12.7
    FG%: .393, .399
    3P%: .321, .333
    EFG: .459,.475
    FT: .864, .685
    AST: 3.0, 2.2
    AST/36min: 5.2, 6.0
    Pts/36min: 10.8, 11.2
    Usage: 15.4, 19.0
    TS%: .497, .505

    Most of the numbers favor Ward, but only by a small amount, and this is his age 25 season compared to Ntilikina’s age 21 season.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Charlie+Ward&player_id1_select=Charlie+Ward&player_id1=wardch01&y1=1996&player_id2_hint=Frank+Ntilikina&player_id2_select=Frank+Ntilikina&player_id2=ntilila01&y2=2020

    Not only that but Charlie Wards ast/tov ratio was much worse than Frank’s (kinda the PG’s #1 job) and Frank’s FT% was 20% better

    Add to that fact that Frank wasn’t orchestrating Ewing/Oakley/Mason/Starks and Charles Smith a bunch of seasoned pros who knew what they were doing on a basketball court.

    Ward had the huge advantage in big spot maturity playing in the biggest spotlight (National Championship in NCAA/Heisman Trophy) while still logging 2700 minutes of college hoops. Interesting factoid…. Charlie ward was such a good athlete he was FSU’s punter as a freshman (37.1 yds/punt.)

    And , of course Ward was 4 years older than Frank at the time of comparison.

  232. “But Frank has played 3 seasons so why are we not comparing him to Ward’s first 3 seasons why only his first 2 especially since Ward only played 10 games and 44 mins in his rookie season?”

    Oh come on…. Frank was 19-21 his first 3 seasons and Ward was 24-26. Ward had already logged 2700 minutes of ACC hoops before ever setting foot on an NBA floor at 24 FFS. Not even mentioning Ward playing in the Heisman spotlight and NCAA national championship teams for FSU. Playing for the Knicks was a step down in intensity.

  233. Oh FFS, its a joke trying to compare Frank to Ward because Frank will never come close to being as good as Ward. Frank sucks and will always suck, this reaching for comparisons and looking for faint hope that Frank might become decent is tiresome.

  234. But, guess what? Satan and his demons are tricky fellows. It looked like the exorcism worked, but Satan is back and he has even more power now than before,

    Are you talking about CAA or yourself?

  235. “Oh FFS, its a joke trying to compare Frank to Ward because Frank will never come close to being as good as Ward. Frank sucks and will always suck, this reaching for comparisons and looking for faint hope that Frank might become decent is tiresome.”

    We shall see in the fullness of time mighty swami…..

  236. Frank sucks and will always suck

    i don’t think frank sucked this year…he was inconsistent, like everyone else not named mitch (whom, despite his freakish numbers had his own struggles)…

    he was our best on-ball defender and free throw shooter…he improved on his shooting and dishing…

    i understand if you didn’t get a chance to watch a lot of games, but, frank’s impact on the defensive side (especially once we slowed down on all the useless switching we did all the time) – seems pretty obvious…i don’t think you can blame him for the train wreck the knicks are as a team…

    seriously – other than mitch – who the heck has performed well for us over the last two seasons…we need a stable front office and coaching situation…we need to better define player roles…get better fitting pieces…

    it ain’t like frank’s salary is prohibiting us from making any “meaningful” moves…frank’s one of the few decent assets we have on the team…

    i get it what many of you say reference frank – it’s like looking at a basket of rotten fruit and figuring out what the most edible pieces might be…

    until last year, last summer actually, i was out on frank…who knows, he may not be a knick much longer or find himself in a starting role on another team – but, frank ain’t the main issue (or secondary or even tertiary, he’s just developing slowly) with what’s happening out on the court…

  237. BigBlueAL: Frank sucks and will always suck, this reaching for comparisons and looking for faint hope that Frank might become decent is tiresome.

    This is pretty bold, considering that Frank improved by nearly every metric last year and was getting better as the season went on. But I guess that at age 21 it’s a lock that he will always suck. OK.

  238. if you ever see frank ntilikina try to tackle pj brown shit is about to get real and by real i mean you are about to see a flash mob lay down some serious hakuna matata harmonies lion king style

  239. I’m a sensitive soul, though I seem thick-skinned
    And it hurt that my friends never stood downwind

    yeppers, every little thing – is gonna be alright…

  240. Yes, Frank improved last season and he still was one of the worst players in the NBA. Think about that. Comparing him to Ward, look at Ward’s 4th season in the NBA. Frank would have to improve 10000X to match that season. That’s basically my point, Frank has to improve at unprecedented lengths just to become an average NBA PG like Ward.

    If Frank was on any other team not one person here would ever contemplate mentioning him as someone the Knicks should try to acquire. Frank’s contract status as the 8th overall pick makes it even worse.

  241. they suck me in all the time :)

    he still was one of the worst players in the NBA

    which statistics indicate him being one of the worst players in the league? he wasn’t even one of the worst players on our team…

  242. BigBlueAL: If Frank was on any other team not one person here would ever contemplate mentioning him as someone the Knicks should try to acquire. Frank’s contract status as the 8th overall pick makes it even worse.

    That’s true about most 21 year olds. Alternatively, if this was Frank’s 21yo rookie year and he played exactly like he did, most here would be optimistic about him. He was a horrendous draft pick, but that’s besides the point. He was not one of the worst players in the NBA this year by any statistical measure. Just bad but improving and 21 years old.

  243. I’m at my wits end with Frank. He’s run into some bad injury woes but jeeze. For the longest time I believed that his floor is “out of the league after next season” and that his ceiling was Trevor Ariza. So I did a comparison of Ntilikina to Ariza. Ariza was drafted at the same age and through his first 3 years played in a comparable amount of games and minutes. What is clear is that Ariza, at this point, was a much more efficient player. His advance stats comparison are key:
    VORP 2.0 vs -2.5
    BPM 0.1 vs -4.7
    WS 6.4 vs. -0.9
    DWS 4.2 vs 2.3
    TS% 51.9 vs .45.0
    PER 13.9 vs 7.7
    It’s not even close. Frank looks like a pure bust. At best, he rates as a 11th/12th man on the roster.

  244. okay then…figured out the ribs (came out perfecto)…letting my system clean up for a minute, but, planning on working some steaks on to the skillet later this week…

    here we go then – any suggestions on how to put together some red (marinara) gravy???

    got to leave garlic and onions alone…i prefer the sauce to be more on the sweet side…need to step up my culinary credibility…i just eat less these days, figure when i do eat, might as well put a little more effort in to it…

    i know, i can just google it, but, i like how you all include the “why” things got to be a certain way…

  245. So I did a comparison of Ntilikina to Ariza.

    i think you may have forgot to include frank’s playoff stats :)

  246. Geo, check out my man Frank Prisinzano on Instagram. All his methods are in the highlights. The sticky marinara method in the beginning should be fun for you.

  247. I think Frank Ntilikina will be traded unless they hire Tom Thibodeau. Thibodeau will value Frank’s defense enough to want to keep him around for another year and try to turn him into a poor man’s version of Jimmy Butler over time. Butler made it to the NBA at 22 and couldn’t shoot for shit from outside when he finally got there. What he had was an enormous work ethic and desire to get better (like Frank). He also the ability to get to the basket and FT line way better than Frank. If Thibodeau is crazy enough to come to NY, it will be interesting to see whether he prioritizes getting to the basket and the FT line or 3 point shooting as the area of improvement he’s looking for in year 1 from Frank.

  248. thanks hubie…

    it’d be for pasta sir…i still need to pick up that oven slab thing for making the pizza…

  249. I agree that it’s ludicrous to compare Frank to Ariza (one of the more athletic guys to ever play in the NBA) and Jimmy Butler (possible HOFer). It is definitely NOT ludicrous to compare Frank to Charlie Ward, or Darrell Walker, or other run-of-the-mill rotation players.

    Charlie Ward would have sucked a bag of dicks if he came into the NBA at 19 years old. He still pretty much sucked until he was 25 years old. There is zero reason to believe that Frank is a finished product at age 21. Zero.

  250. To be fair to Strat, he didn’t say that Frank was going to become Jimmy Butler. He said that a defensive-oriented coach would value Frank’s skillset and be more likely to value and play him. Let’s be fair here.

  251. okay, so it looks like either: red pack whole peeled plum tomatoes or san marzano peeled tomatoes are the way to go…

    okay, seems simple enough (it never ever is though):
    – lean ground beef, drain
    – dab of butter
    – i should be okay with some diced bell peppers – or, maybe just some crushed red pepper, i just got to watch out for garlic and onions
    – canned crushed or peeled tomatoes (don’t drain can)
    – fresh basil and parsley
    – salt, pepper
    – brown sugar – or – can i just use wine, i feel compelled to add wine…a little wine for the pot, a little wine for me
    – tomato paste?
    – simmer for about an hour?

  252. In terms of improvement, Franks TS% improved by .080, his WS48 improved by .082, and his BPM by 2.8. He improved his shooting % from 2, 3, and the line. He shot 48% on corner 3’s. He still has a long way to go but the improvement is meaningful in light of his age.

  253. Z-man:
    I agree that it’s ludicrous to compare Frank to Ariza (one of the more athletic guys to ever play in the NBA)

    I compared them because:
    1) They were both drafted by the Knicks
    2) Ariza was drafted in the 2nd round
    3) Never was an all-star
    4) Didn’t become a starter until his 6th season.

    If Ntilikina can’t match up with that, then he’s an absolute bust.

    Another thing that got me to post the comparison is that you posted this apology for Frank:

    Z-man: This is pretty bold, considering that Frank improved by nearly every metric last year and was getting better as the season went on. But I guess that at age 21 it’s a lock that he will always suck. OK.

  254. horny, rambis, fiz, and a little bit of miller time…it’s funny – the biggest leap yet seems to be when he played for collet over in france last summer…

  255. geo:
    okay then…figured out the ribs (came out perfecto)…letting my system clean up for a minute, but, planning on working some steaks on to the skillet later this week…

    here we go then – any suggestions on how to put together some red (marinara) gravy???

    got to leave garlic and onions alone…i prefer the sauce to be more on the sweet side…need to step up my culinary credibility…i just eat less these days, figure when i do eat, might as well put a little more effort in to it…

    i know, i can just google it, but, i like how you all include the “why” things got to be a certain way

    Geo – I made spareribs using the 3-2-1 method yesterday. Came out great.

    Your recipe is actually a bolognese.

    My home made marinara is a staple and is sweet. I make a new batch as soon as I’m low. First: No butter! Use EVOO. If you want a sweeter sauce, use Vadalia onions and garlic gets bitter if you burn it, which is easy to do. Saute the onions first on medium-high heat. When they become translucent lower the flame and add the garlic. Start with 1 can of whole and 1 can of crushed tomatoes. Add the saute onions and garlic. Dry spices are fine for sauces but. I add fresh basil and parsley (which I grow) when I make a dish with it.
    Spices:
    1/2 T oregano (I like a lot more but can be bitter to some)
    1T Basil
    Crushed Red Pepper (to taste – I make mine very spicy – 1T most folks would say 1t)
    Salt & pepper to taste.
    Bring it all to a simmer. Drop a bay leaf or two on top and simmer for 1/2 hour.

    Drink the wine. Alcohol burns off. Depending on the wine it can change your sauce significantly.
    This is a base. If you want a bolognese, saute some ground beef and add the sauce. I use this sauce to make pizza. eggplant parm and as a pasta sauce.

  256. GoNYGoNYGo – Ready for 2020 Knicks 2.0: I compared them because:
    1) They were both drafted by the Knicks
    2) Ariza was drafted in the 2nd round
    3) Never was an all-star
    4) Didn’t become a starter until his 6th season.

    If Ntilikina can’t match up with that, then he’s an absolute bust.

    Another thing that got me to post the comparison is that you posted this apology for Frank:

    Apology> Get real, GoGo. No one was harder on Frank at draft time and beyond than I was, and I agree that in terms of where and when we drafted him, he is an unmitigated bust (as I predicted, btw.). But it’s waaaaay to early to write him off as becoming a potentially productive NBA player at some point after his rookie contract. I mean, how arbitrary is it to say “If his progression doesn’t match up with Ariza’s, he’s a bust?!” I seriously don’t get why it seems unreasonable to say that he simply wasn’t ready for the NBA at age 19-21, which is true for lots of guys who eventually become good players. The fact is that he DID improve (is there any disputing that?) and if he makes the same statistical improvement next year as he did this year, he’s a legit rotation player. Even if he only improves somewhat (say, WS48=.070, BPM=0.2) , he’ll still be only 22. That’s how old Obi Toppin is right now.

  257. The thinking among some seems to be “once you’re in the NBA, age doesn’t matter any more…if you are bad after a certain amount of NBA minutes, you will be bad forever. There’s just not enough statistical data to draw that conclusion. The fact is that it is only recently that the majority of players drafted in the first round, especially in the lottery, are either college freshmen or young euro’s. There is enormous temptation for players to enter the draft too early and for teams to bank on quick development. Frank never should have been drafted where he was based solely on his production at Strasbourg. Even if he came out now in this weak draft, he probably wouldn’t have been a lottery pick. But he’d be a perfectly decent late first round flyer right now, and if he had the opportunity to re-enter the draft with a clean slate, I think he would go in the top 30 picks, give or take. It’s just that at his current salary, and for only one more year of team control, who would want to give up even a 2nd rounder for him. But I guarantee you that if we waived him, he would be picked up immediately.

  258. Z-man, that’s why I compared him to Ariza. They were the same exact age coming out and I compared their 3 years. It’s very close to the time where Frank gets written off. We disagree about how much he needs to improve to have any real value. Ariza was far ahead of Ntilikina at the same exact point in life and NBA experience. Ariza needed to improve massively from that to become a starter 3 years later. I cannot see him ever being an NBA starter and have a hard time with him even being a rotation option.

  259. Frank is like Jesus Christ before the Holy Week.
    Disbelieved by his “copatriots”.
    Ridiculed by “Romans”.
    Trusted only by the “apostles” and by the Frank believers.
    He carries the Knicks Heavy Cross on his back and fearlessly climbs NBAGolgotha.
    Till the resurrection.
    I believe.

  260. GoGo, Ariza was already an average NBA player or above from age 20-23 (his WS48 was .100 or more with both ORL and LAL.) He played a swing-forward position where he was able to be impactful on sheer athleticism. He didn’t really need to shoot or pass much, just play D, rebound, dunk and hit the uncontested corner 3. Frank is never going to be that kind of player, he’s not the elite athlete that Ariza was and couldn’t survive in an ultra low-usage role, but he’s a decent ball-handler, passer, and switchable defender. The one similarity is that Ariza’s game blossomed when he became reliable when left open from 3. That’s the big hurdle for Frank. If he keeps shooting 3’s at 30-32%, he’ll be out of the league soon. But there’s no reason to believe that he won’t improve his 3-pt shooting. He was the best FT shooter on the team last year at 86%.

  261. “The arrogant eye”
    I think i am still able to tell the difference between a likeable glue guy from an author for kids-overachiever and from a promising defensive specialist without looking at their stats.

  262. It’s crazy how many lottery picks we’ve fucked up. Frank, Knox, Jordan Hill, Frye, Sweetney…

    Only good one was Gallo and a freakishly tall guy who shoots three pointers at an average rate.

    I guess the jury’s still out on RJ.

  263. Wait, nobody is going to try to compare Frank’s first 3000 minutes in the league to LeBron’s first 3000 minutes? They both came into the league at 19, and Frank’s efficiency stats are pretty close!

  264. “They name teams out of STRENGTH, not weakness, but now the Washington Redskins & Cleveland Indians, two fabled sports franchises, look like they are going to be changing their names in order to be politically correct. Indians like Elizabeth Warren, must be very angry right now!”

    Sorry, Mr. President, but they name teams out of strength AND/OR out of wanting to immortalize a fashion trend that looked like baggy capri’s.

  265. Really, how low can he go? Oh wait, he retweeted a White Power chant and demanded an apology from Bubba Wallace. I guess we’re not at rock bottom yet.

  266. I wonder how evangelicals who are in love with Trump are interpreting the COVID-19 pandemic…

  267. wanting to immortalize a fashion trend that looked like baggy capri’s.

    I thought the knickerbocker thing was a reference to some ideal of new york aristocrats from some novel written like 100 something years ago…

    I like the knickerbocker name…trying to think of another NBA team’s name that sounds cooler…

    okay, miami heat is pretty awesome…

  268. I make a new batch as soon as I’m low.

    :)

    yeah, just need to add a little more discipline to my cooking…

    just reading what you all write and watching endless cooking shows at moms, I wanna step up my game a bit…

    I wanna beat bobby flay…

  269. “Sorry, Mr. President, but they name teams out of strength AND/OR out of wanting to immortalize a fashion trend that looked like baggy capri’s.”

    Ummm…. not so much….

    https://www.nba.com/knicks/history/whatsaknickerbocker.html

    “Thus, the Knickerbocker name had been an integral part of the New York scene for more than a century when the Basketball Association of America granted a charter franchise to the city in the summer of 1946. As can best be determined, the final decision to call the team the “Knickerbockers” was made by the club’s founder, the legendary Ned Irish.

    The late Fred Podesta, the longtime Garden executive who passed away in 1999, once recalled, “The name came out of a hat. We were all sitting in the office one day – Irish, (publicity man) Lester Scott and a few others on the staff. We each put a name in the hat, and when we pulled them out, most of them said Knickerbockers, after Father Knickerbocker, the symbol of New York City. It soon was shortened to Knicks.”

  270. Perhaps to change our luck we should appeal to Father Knickerbocker and change our logo to a Father Knickerbocker logo like the Celtics have their Leprechaun logo

  271. “Perhaps to change our luck we should appeal to Father Knickerbocker and change our logo to a Father Knickerbocker logo like the Celtics have their Leprechaun logo”

    There’s an old gambler’s tale about how to change your luck if you are running badly…. ask any hooker……

  272. The New York Knickerbockers is probably the best team name in American sports. We should turn back the clock and embrace its history.

  273. I’m a southerner. I’m offended by the NY “Yankees” I don’t find honoring pillagers like “Pirates”, “Vikings” and Buccaneers” with a team name appealing either. It’s probably also somewhat offensive to have a “Saints” or “Padres” because that’s mixing a specific religion with sports which is either unfair or can be seen as promoting that religion. #CancelSports

  274. “The New York Knickerbockers is probably the best team name in American sports. We should turn back the clock and embrace its history.”

    The Knickerbockers IS a cool name but it can’t hold a candle to the UC Irvine Anteaters…….

  275. The Frank discussion will be over soon unless Tom Thibodeau is named coach. He’s the only coach I can see wanting to keep him because he’d have a role with Thibodeau. He’d be asked to play deeefense. lmao I know drafting players that can play deeefense like Frank and Porzingis is typically a novel idea in NY, but I think TT will move back in that direction and work with Frank to continue developing his offense.

  276. Knickerbocker is a dumb name and sort of has the opposite problem of the Cleveland Indians. It’s essentially calling the team the New York “New Yorkers” but specifically referring to the city’s European settlers aka the colonizers.

  277. Despite the general contempt for Frank on this board, every coach has ended up playing him substantial minutes, despite competition from players drafted in similar spots (Mudiay, DSJ). I don’t see why some coach other than Thibideau wouldn’t play him too unless we upgraded our point guard position substantially somehow.

  278. ess-dog: Knickerbocker is a dumb name and sort of has the opposite problem of the Cleveland Indians. It’s essentially calling the team the New York “New Yorkers” but specifically referring to the city’s European settlers aka the colonizers.

    I dunno, seems perfectly appropriate for the city with the most segregated school system in the country…

  279. KnickfaninNJ:
    Despite the general contempt for Frank on this board, every coach has ended up playing him substantial minutes, despite competition from players drafted in similar spots (Mudiay, DSJ). I don’t see why some coach otherthan Thibideau wouldn’t play him too unless we upgraded our point guard position substantially somehow.

    Yeah, for all of Strat’s whining, the Knicks ditched Trier and kept Frank. So much for the valuing offense over defense theory…

  280. ess-dog: It’s essentially calling the team the New York “New Yorkers” but specifically referring to the city’s European settlers aka the colonizers.

    Are you implying there is something wrong with that, too?

  281. For all the noise about Devin Booker (and don’t get me wrong, I think Booker’s great), to me the more obvious guy to go after and possibly get is Donovan Mitchell. Mitchell is not nearly as good as Booker but he’s up for his big contract soon, is from the NY area (presumably wouldn’t be turned off by Tarrytown since it’s literally 5 minutes from where grew up), is a CAA client, and famously doesn’t get along with the other star in Utah. He and RJ would be a good fit together as neither probably is best as a 100% on the ball kind of guy, and having RJ as a secondary handler would let Mitchell spend more energy on defense, which is where his strengths were actually supposed to be. Can’t you just hear the “It’s Mitchell to Mitchell!!!” alley-oop calls? God knows what Clyde would do with that.

    (never mind that it seems likely that RJ would have to go to Utah in any sort of a trade)

  282. the Knicks ditched Trier and kept Frank. So much for the valuing offense over defense theory…

    Unless Trier has personal problems we are unaware of (remember, one of the reasons he dropped in the draft was a couple of PED positives), it was a mistake to let Trier go. These idiots value offense over defense to an absurd extreme, then when the finally found a good offensive player they let him go. lmao

  283. Deeefense: Unless Trier has personal problems we are unaware of (remember, one of the reasons he dropped in the draft was a couple of PED positives), it was a mistake to let Trier go. These idiots value offense over defense to an absurd extreme, then when the finally found a good offensive player they let him go. lmao

    You have a bullshit Phil-fellating answer for everything, why should this case be any different?

  284. Z-man: You have a bullshit Phil-fellating answer for everything, why should this case be any different?

    What is your problem?

    IMO, Trier is a good prospect as a 6th man scorer off the bench. I would have kept him. The one exception would be a personal problem that we are unaware of.

    I don’t see anything too controversial about that.

    They are constantly looking for scorers. They found a pretty good one. They let him go. lmao

  285. For all the noise about Devin Booker (and don’t get me wrong, I think Booker’s great), to me the more obvious guy to go after and possibly get is Donovan Mitchell.

    I think Mitchell and Gobert have probably worked out their differences to the point where it’s unlikely Mitchell would want to leave a contender to be on a bad team in NY.

    Booker fits perfectly in NY. He’ll score a lot of points and won’t play defense. But if he’s crazy enough to want to come to NY, do we really want him?

  286. “Z-man: You have a bullshit Phil-fellating”

    Alliteration abounds on Knickerblogger :-)

  287. Deeefense: What is your problem?

    IMO, Trier is a good prospect as a 6th man scorer off the bench.I would have kept him. The one exception would be a personal problem that we are unaware of.

    I don’t see anything too controversial about that.

    They are constantly looking for scorers. They found a pretty good one. They let him go. lmao

    My problem is that whenever you are confronted with a FACT that contradicts your belief, you spin the shit out of it so that you don’t have to utter the following 3 words: I WAS WRONG!

    Despite horrific offensive numbers, the Knicks kept and played Ntilikina
    Despite outstanding offensive numbers, the Knicks waived Trier

    That’s a fact. Deal with it. the lmao is your your idiotic spin that they are so dumb they don’t even know how to prioritize what you say they are committed to prioritizing. Do you realize how petty and foolish that makes you sound?

  288. “Are you implying there is something wrong with that, too?”

    C’mon Hubert…. you know those white Europeans who constructed the most fair society in 244 years that in no particular order: brought billions out of poverty, revolutionized agriculture to feed billions, brought two world wars to conclusion, ignited the technology boom, etc, etc. Yeah…. those cocksuckers.

  289. “ess-dog
    July 7, 2020 at 9:08 am
    Bob, I think you mean “sex worker”…”

    No I meant hooker…. I never in my life ever heard anyone say, “Hey…. let’s go find the nearest ‘sex worker’ and
    #!??%& (enter your favorite sex act) the bleep out of them!”

  290. bobneptune: No I meant hooker…. I never in my life ever heard anyone say, “Hey…. let’s go find the nearest ‘sex worker’ and
    #!??%& (enter your favorite sex act) the bleep out of them!”

    Funny, I never associated with anyone who said the above with either descriptive noun. But thanks for reaffirming that you are a dirtbag of the lowest order.

  291. brought 2 world wars to conclusion….

    I mean, this is hilarious. So they get credit for eventually ending wars that they themselves started?

    Hey, thank you for putting out that fire you started that burned down half of my house and left my family homeless.

  292. Are you implying there is something wrong with that, too?

    Hell yeah, here comes “to the smallpox-resistant goes the spoils, get over it” Hubert. Tuesday’s gonna be LIT.

  293. “I mean, this is hilarious. So they get credit for eventually ending wars that they themselves started?”

    I was talking about the descendants of those evil Europeans, the Amerikans. I’m also pretty sure Japan was the only country to actually seriously bomb Amerika in 1941

  294. “Funny, I never associated with anyone who said the above with either descriptive noun. But thanks for reaffirming that you are a dirtbag of the lowest order.”

    My ass you haven’t…..

  295. bobneptune: C’mon Hubert…. you know those white Europeans who constructed the most fair society in 244 years that in no particular order: brought billions out of poverty, revolutionized agriculture to feed billions, brought two world wars to conclusion, ignited the technology boom, etc, etc. Yeah…. those cocksuckers.

    Yup, bob, those Europeans, you have to really hand it to them. Such a glorious history, full of defending individual liberty and championing the causes of the common man and woman. I’m sure you’re especially impressed with that 30’s-40’s Austrian/German guy who had that German economy running like clockwork!

  296. They name teams out of STRENGTH, not weakness, but now the Washington Redskins & Cleveland Indians, two fabled sports franchises, look like they are going to be changing their names in order to be politically correct.

    Yes, the fabled Cleveland Indians. Who can forget the heroics of Duane Kuiper and Brook Jacoby? The unforgettable managerial run of Jeff Torborg?
    The glorious 70-win seasons at Cleveland Municipal Stadium? It’s less like real life and more like a wonderful fable.

  297. bobneptune:
    “I mean, this is hilarious. So they get credit for eventually ending wars that they themselves started?”

    I was talking about the descendants of those evil Europeans, the Amerikans. I’m also pretty sure Japan was the only country to actually seriously bomb Amerika in 1941

    That’s true…except if you’re from the country of Black Amerika. (Obviously you are pining for an Afrikaner-type partition here…no one is that bad of a speller.)

  298. bobneptune:
    “ess-dog
    July 7, 2020 at 9:08 am
    Bob, I think you mean “sex worker”…”

    No I meant hooker…. I never in my life ever heard anyone say, “Hey…. let’s go find the nearest ‘sex worker’ and #!??%& (enter your favorite sex act) the bleep out of them!”

    bob also believes we should keep on using the n-word because never in his life did he ever hear anyone say, “Hey… let’s go find the nearest Afrikan-Amerikan and (enter your favorite form of lynching) the bleep out of them!”

  299. Preserving the “heritage” of the Confederate flag and the name Washington Redskins. What a great, great man.

    Let’s get Amos and Andy back on the air and do a reboot of Birth Of A Nation starring Jon Voight and Scott Baio while we’re at it.

  300. Japan was the only country to actually seriously bomb Amerika in 1941

    i don’t really like traveling much, but – before i get too damn old (like mobility wise), i’d love to take a trip there to enjoy some of the small coastal towns and a bit of the countryside…whenever i read about how cheap some of the housing has become there, i’ll fantasize a bit about maybe moving there…

  301. malika andrews has been reporting from down in the orlando bubble…they’re using some neat devices to help promote social distance and confirm virus status…

    just from reports of the different processes, seems a lot more solid than the mlb approach…

  302. i think the real big question for the day though is – go with the marinara or meat (bolognese) sauce…such weighty life choices…

  303. Yes, the fabled Cleveland Indians. Who can forget the heroics of Duane Kuiper and Brook Jacoby? The unforgettable managerial run of Jeff Torborg?
    The glorious 70-win seasons at Cleveland Municipal Stadium? It’s less like real life and more like a wonderful fable.

    This was one of the funnier parts of that tweet. There’s a whole series of well-known movies all about how they are very much not a fabled franchise!

  304. My bolognese is 2 parts beef and pork each, 1 part chopped mortadella and pancetta each; diced onion, minced carrot and celery; a can of whole peeled San Marzanos chopped up; a cup of pinot or another medium-bodied wine to deglaze with the tomatoes. You shouldn’t need much olive oil or butter after the meats render. Saute the mirepoix after that. Add a little heavy cream at the end to really send it. Simmer for as long as you want. Four hours sounds about right.

    Really good as a layer in lasagna. Despite my wife’s high caloric needs, she doesn’t allow too much red meat, so this is a special treat kinda thing.

  305. Z-man: Yup, bob, those Europeans, you have to really hand it to them. Such a glorious history, full of defending individual liberty and championing the causes of the common man and woman. I’m sure you’re especially impressed with that 30’s-40’s Austrian/German guy who had that German economy running like clockwork!

    Z-Man, we were talking about the Europeans who colonized America and founded our country.

    For all their faults, and they are many, they had nothing to do with Hitler.

  306. Hubert: Z-Man, we were talking about the Europeans who colonized America and founded our country.

    Violence inherent in the system! Violence inherent in the system!

  307. Hubert: Z-Man, we were talking about the Europeans who colonized America and founded our country.

    For all their faults, and they are many, they had nothing to do with Hitler.

    Sure, American (you know, those Americans) foreign policy had nothing to do with Hitler. Right.

  308. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Hell yeah, here comes “to the smallpox-resistant goes the spoils, get over it” Hubert. Tuesday’s gonna be LIT.

    Nah… but if you scrutinized the history of the Initial Coalescent and Middle Missouri variants, as well as the more well known Algonquin nation, with the same fervor you scrutinize your own history… I think you’d find these were some miserable cunts guilty of everything the european colonizers did… and then some.

  309. a cup of pinot or another medium-bodied wine to deglaze with the tomatoes.

    aha, very interesting…

    1 part chopped mortadella and pancetta each

    i’m pretty sure i’ve never tasted either of these…we have one or two decent italian delis in town…i need to see what they have inside…

    I think a marinara sauce besides being meatless tastes very much of fresh tomatoes

    my thought was – the marinara sauce is more versatile, and if i’d like – i can just make the meatballs separately…

  310. Look, at the end of the day, no group is perfect and any symbol associated with pretty much any group is subject to historical criticism, especially if you stretch the truth beyond recognition. If the point is that the term Knickerbocker is inherently racist, I’m not on board with that. But let’s not gloss over the history of our Eurocentric culture in defense of a team name, especially as a thinly-veiled defense of Mr. MAGA’s racist rhetoric.

  311. Z-man: Sure, American (you know, those Americans) foreign policy had nothing to do with Hitler. Right.

    It was only a matter of time til someone blamed the holocaust on Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, et al.

  312. geo: 1 part chopped mortadella and pancetta each

    i’m pretty sure i’ve never tasted either of these…we have one or two decent italian delis in town…i need to see what they have inside…

    Mortadella is bologna with lumps of lard. Pancetta is essentially unsmoked/uncured bacon.

  313. ess-dog: Violence inherent in the system! Violence inherent in the system!

    I am curious about the question I asked you. I’ll rephrase:

    Do you truly believe “Knickerbocker” is an offensive name that should be changed?

  314. Hubert: It was only a matter of time til someone blamed the holocaust on Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, et al.

    See, I thought it was only a matter of time before you made an absurdly dumb comment…and voila!

  315. Pancetta is essentially unsmoked/uncured bacon.

    i just got hungry reading this sentence…mmmmmmm bacon…

  316. I mean, most team names are silly, confusing or outdated when you really break them down. “Celtics” is probably just as bad as Knickerbockers in that regard, but often the alternative is beyond mundane — like an owner naming their team after the weather (the Heat) so as not to offend anybody.

    Seems like you can’t go wrong with a nice animal name. What about the New York Heifers?

  317. Hubert: I am curious about the question I asked you.I’ll rephrase:

    Do you truly believe “Knickerbocker” is an offensive name that should be changed?

    No, I more just think it’s a dumb name, and it’s interesting to think about its origins in light of the ‘Redskins’ mess.

  318. ess-dog: “Celtics” is probably just as bad as Knickerbockers in that regard,

    What is bad about Celtic and Knickerbocker?

  319. Nah… but if you scrutinized the history of the Initial Coalescent and Middle Missouri variants, as well as the more well known Algonquin nation, with the same fervor you scrutinize your own history… I think you’d find these were some miserable cunts guilty of everything the european colonizers did… and then some.

    So you’re saying… both sides bad?

  320. I find mortadella a little weird. Not my favorite but I found it in a recipe some years back and loved how it worked with the other meats. Pancetta is glorious. geo, if you want something relatively simple, make spaghetti carbonara with big, thick-cut chunks of pancetta (assuming you can’t find guanciale). Along with cacio e pepe, it’s the king of adult mac-n-cheese.

  321. The Honorable Cock Jowles: So you’re saying… both sides bad?

    I’m saying humanity is inherently flawed, so don’t let weaponized guilt weigh you down.

    As for this desire to make villains out of everyone in history…. imagine if we end institutional racism in our generation. What an incredible accomplishment that would be.

    But 250 years from now when we’re trying to build cities in Nebraska to replace the coastal ones that became uninhabitable, everyone alive is going to hate us because we drove cars when we knew how bad it was for the environment. They’ll be tearing down statues of Barack Obama because of the size of his carbon footprint.

    Such is life. That’s why we make bolognese.

  322. As for this desire to make villains out of everyone in history

    I feel like I’m arguing against S4E3 of The Sopranos right now.

  323. No one’s making villains out of everyone in history. We’re making villains out of people who currently use derogatory terms and images for their sports teams.

  324. Clyde has said that, because “knicker” rhymes with a common racial slur that whites have hurled at blacks in this country to subjugate them despite their supposed emancipation, when he played, the fans would incorporate said word into their nickname, and that it made the players uncomfortable. So I don’t see any reason to be sentimental for some halcyon era where the name meant something important. To me, it’s not worth crusading over, but if somebody wanted to change it, i wouldn’t stop them. It’s a dumb sounding name anyway.

  325. i just copied and pasted that whole blurb and sent an email to myself, so i don’t forget it :)

    the delis i’m thinking about our relatively close to one another and a nice bike ride away…

  326. I hardly attribute that kind of behavior to the shorts that gave the franchise its name. There’s nothing about the name “Red Sox” that can be twisted into a racist epiphet, but Bostonians have done a superb job of making sure black players know where they stand in the New England hierarchy.

    They are the Knicks, they will always be the Knicks.

  327. #CancelSports

    #CancelMovies

    #CancelArt

    #CancelTV

    #CancelSocialMedia

    #CancelSpeech

    #CancelStatues

  328. I wish I could see 100-200 years into the future when people are looking back at us and consider some of the norms and almost universally accepted ideas and behaviors of our times as wildly ignorant and barbaric.

  329. vincoug:
    No one’s making villains out of everyone in history.We’re making villains out of people who currently use derogatory terms and images for their sports teams.

    I was talking about the villainization – in this thread – of the Dutch settlers of New York, because ess-dog suggested that Knickerbocker was as bad as Indian.

    It was Jowles who threw out a straw man argument about small pox… and then another one about the Sopranos.

    Fuck that team in Washington. No one’s defending them.

  330. “Z-man: Yup, bob, those Europeans, you have to really hand it to them. Such a glorious history, full of defending individual liberty and championing the causes of the common man and woman. I’m sure you’re especially impressed with that 30’s-40’s Austrian/German guy who had that German economy running like clockwork!”

    Your interpretation of history couldn’t be more juvenile. I mean Jesus…. you make like everything bad was invented by White Europeans. Slavery was rampant on every continent. The Egyptians used conquered peoples as slaves 4000 years ago. Mansa Musa of Mali owned 10’s of thousands of slaves and notably took 12,000 slaves with him on his famous pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324. Native American tribes enslaved their conquered foes right here in North America.

    Conquering peoples and driving them off their ancestral lands? How do you think the Lakota Sioux got “ownership” of the Black Hills of South Dakota? They murdered and drove the Cheyenne off THEIR ancestral lands in the 1700’s. The followers of Mohammed conquered and enslaved people from Afghanistan to Spain a thousand years before slavery in America.

    War crimes/murder of innocents? The Imperial Japanese and Chinese under Mao were every bit as good at it as Hitler.

    The only difference being the Europeans from Democritus of Abdera to Einstein developed physics. From Hippocratus to Harvey to Fleming perfected Medicine. From Locke to Jefferson/Madison/et al developed the system of democracy.

    This combination of events pushed forward by those miserable white Europeans led to the emergence of billions out of poverty and into an area of greater individual freedom than any system anywhere else on the Earth.

  331. Deeefense:
    I wish I could see 100-200 years into the future when people are looking back at us and consider some of the norms and almost universally accepted ideas and behaviors of our times as wildly ignorant and barbaric.

    –Jefferson Davis

  332. “Clyde has said that, because “knicker” rhymes with a common racial slur that whites have hurled at blacks in this country to subjugate them despite their supposed emancipation, when he played, the fans would incorporate said word into their nickname, and that it made the players uncomfortable. So I don’t see any reason to be sentimental for some halcyon era where the name meant something important. To me, it’s not worth crusading over, but if somebody wanted to change it, i wouldn’t stop them. It’s a dumb sounding name anyway.”

    First of all they are never called the Knickerbockers…99.999% of the time they are known as the “Knicks” and Knicks doesn’t remotely sound like the n-word. But you are telling me now that every word in English that ends in -er and has an “n” somewhere in it has to be expunged from the English language??? Really #cancelpasttense.

    In this thread we learn the past tense is racist….. those sly DOG-WHISTLING white Europeans that invented the past tense! Off with their heads!

  333. So bob is essentially saying “let’s turn a blind eye to any vestige of eurocentric institutional racism and not call into question whitewashed biographies of historical figures and symbols because all other ethnic groups have engaged in racism and genocide but euros came up with great inventions along the way. And it really makes us ignorant ol’ white guys uncomfortable when you rip off the security blanket of white supremacy that we have benefitted from all of our lives (not to mention misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism, etc.) Besides, those Native Americans, Africans, Asians did horrible things so they deserve it.”

    bob probably feels like Jerry West’s dad was a great parent for beating the shit out of and terrorizing his son because look how great The Logo turned out.

  334. ess-dog suggested that Knickerbocker was as bad as Indian

    Oh come on, I simply said that “Knickerbocker is a dumb name and sort of has the opposite problem of the Cleveland Indians.” By this, I meant that it’s an interesting exercise to unravel a lot of our iconography because of the country’s fraught past.

    I was hardly suggesting that I found an old-fashioned name for New York-based Dutchmen in funny pants known for their “toughness” to be offensive. I just think it’s dumb sounding in today’s society: It’s like the team is called “The New York Dutch Settlers of New York” just like the Boston Celtics are basically “The Boston Ancient Whites From Britain.”

  335. howdy dough chew, hope all is well for you and the family, how’s your dad doing?

    i was thinking about him the other day being at the epicenter of this whole thing, and being so strong and making sure you didn’t worry too much…

  336. ***First of all they are never called the Knickerbockers…99.999% of the time they are known as the “Knicks” and Knicks doesn’t remotely sound like the n-word. But you are telling me now that every word in English that ends in -er and has an “n” somewhere in it has to be expunged from the English language??? Really #cancelpasttense.***

    I’m not telling you anything of the sort, as you’d know if you actually read what you quoted. You’d also know that I wasn’t even the one saying it, Clyde said it. So your beef is with him (Bob = Clyde Police!)

  337. “So bob is essentially saying “let’s turn a blind eye to any vestige of eurocentric institutional racism ……. Besides, those Native Americans, Africans, Asians did horrible things so they deserve it.”

    So many straw men and bullshit I don’t know where to start:

    The “turn a blind eye trope”. Didn’t say anything about excusing any past behaviors…. merely said they are universal around the world and not endemic to any particular culture.

    And where on Earth did you get this from (other than your own dark heart)….certainly not from my post:

    “Besides, those Native Americans, Africans, Asians did horrible things so they deserve it.”

    My position has been all people around the world are demonstrably grossly imperfect. As were the founders.

    However those old racist white euroguys were smart enough to install a self correcting system of government which has for some odd reason driven 10’s of millions of people from every continent to do whatever they could to get here. We must not suck quite as badly as you thing because the people of the world are voting with their feet.

    As to BLM et al….while 11 black people being killed unarmed by police from a few million encounters is 11 too many, that isn’t the reason for the inequity in out comes in America. A far greater factor is discussed by that noted right wing reactionary Obama:

    Continued…..

  338. But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing — missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

    You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled — doubled — since we were children. We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

  339. Fuck that team in Washington. No one’s defending them

    Let’s put that to the test!

    Hey bob, what do you think of Donald Trump sending out a tweet defending the name “Washington Redskins,” that was some race-baiting bullshit, amirite?

  340. But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing — missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

    You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled — doubled — since we were children.

    i literally just saw this being highlighted on Fox news yesterday :)

    very interesting to see how different news outlets handle the news…lots and lots of talk about black on black crime and how the family structure is missing within urban environments…

    i don’t know man, it’s interesting to see different approaches being used to appeal to different audiences…

    spoke to my oldest friend who lives down in florida on the 4th…we don’t communicate as much as we used to, for reasons…but, yeah – he literally regurgitated the same exact shit i’ve seen on fox news during the week…

    fortunately i was able to steer the conversation towards more common ground – just how gorgeous shannon bream is…i don’t bother disagreeing with him – cuz, much like this site – it’s simply pissing in the wind – which, if we’re being honest, we’ve probably all done before and quickly realized it not an action worth repeating…

    i’ll never forget, about a lifetime ago myself and the platoon we’re up at our missile site over in germany doing our thing…it was really windy and this one guy, who was pretty smart actually, starts pissing and pretty much soaked himself – it was absolutely hilarious…

    trump fucked up when he dumped on bubba and nascar – nascar airs on fox…they made sure to point out ratings were up – and, all was good in nascar world…

  341. can’t believe we’re still at least another 7 months or so away from having a national strategy for dealing with this virus…

  342. wtf is QAnon? i’ve read about it, and, i still don’t get exactly what it is…

    It’a a far right conspiracy created by someone (probably a single person at first, but now more likely a group of people) posting under the name Q on message boards talking about how the deep state is trying to take Trump down, while branching off into stuff like “this pizza place is a sex trafficking ring!” Really gullible morons fall for it and take it seriously and politicians are realizing that they can use it to their own ends, so we’re getting more and more QAnon-spouting politicians into Congress, like Dan Crenshaw.

  343. Z-man:
    GoGo, Ariza was already an average NBA player or above from age 20-23 (his WS48 was .100 or more with both ORL and LAL.)He played a swing-forward position where he was able to be impactful on sheer athleticism. He didn’t really need to shoot or pass much, just play D, rebound, dunk and hit the uncontested corner 3. Frank is never going to be that kind of player, he’s not the elite athlete that Ariza was and couldn’t survive in an ultra low-usage role, but he’s a decent ball-handler, passer, and switchable defender. The one similarity is that Ariza’s game blossomed when he became reliable when left open from 3. That’s the big hurdle for Frank. If he keeps shooting 3’s at 30-32%, he’ll be out of the league soon. But there’s no reason to believe that he won’t improve his 3-pt shooting. He was the best FT shooter on the team last year at 86%.

    I guess you made my point for me. Ariza was never “great”. He was good. He was good faster. Point is that Ariza is and was simply a good role player throughout his career. If Frank can’t get to that level, as you are making abundantly clear you agree with, he’s playing with one foot on the banana peel out the door.

  344. GoNYGoNYGo – Ready for 2020 Knicks 2.0: If Frank can’t get to that level, as you are making abundantly clear you agree with, he’s playing with one foot on the banana peel out the door.

    We actually have a HUGE disagreement. I am saying that at age 21 he still has plenty of time to get there. You are saying that it’s too late, he’s already behind the Ariza curve so he’s pretty much toast. I also think that every player progresses at his own rate and has his own ceiling. I don’t know why Ariza didn’t continue to blossom into an all-star, while Jimmy Butler did. It certainly isn’t because of anything that happened before age 21. But whatever, we’ll see.

  345. thanks bc, so it’s just message board stuff on the web where people say shit like morbius actually survived from planet altair iv and its descendants are now running our country and the world…

    cuz, the answer is always: it’s aliens…

    i guess blaming it all on the templars just wasn’t interesting enough for folks anymore…

  346. “Really gullible morons fall for it and take it seriously and politicians are realizing that they can use it to their own ends, so we’re getting more and more QAnon-spouting politicians into Congress, like Dan Crenshaw.”

    Yeah…. Dan Crenshaw is an ignorant putz…..not worldly and educated at all… went to high school in Ecuador and Columbia…. then to Tufts for a BA…. 10 years as a Navy Seal 2 Bronze Stars and a Purple heart in Afghanistan…. then on to Harvard for a Masters.

    We need more worldly BU bartender/geniuses like AOC and less dopes like Dan Crenshaw…..

  347. “i literally just saw this being highlighted on Fox news yesterday :)”

    Were you alive when Obama was president? It was a pretty important speech he made of Father’s day. I guess you never read Thomas Sowell…. he quotes that speech often…. that’s where I first heard those numbers quoted an I thought it rather striking. I’m guessing Obama didn’t make them up.

    By the way, the prospects of white children under similar circumstances without an adult male in the home are similar.

  348. bobneptune: By the way, the prospects of white children under similar circumstances without an adult male in the home are similar.

    And here’s where we bring up systemic problems that create the differences in the rates of absentee fathers of different races. Definitely has nothing to do with increased likelihood of mortality, incarceration, and the preference of businesses to hire white people. You know, as science repeatedly indicates.

    But of course Bob has a view of correlation that only works in contexts that favor his views. For instance, does this correlational study on hydroxychloroquine promote my position despite a lack of double-blind testing, use of placebos, and other controls? Yes, it supports my position so it must be correct. Now, does this study or hundreds of others on structural racism support my position? No, it doesn’t support my position so in this case I’ll whine about how correlation does not equal causation. #SCIENCE

  349. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    My bolognese is 2 parts beef and pork each, 1 part chopped mortadella and pancetta each; diced onion, minced carrot and celery; a can of whole peeled San Marzanos chopped up; a cup of pinot or another medium-bodied wine to deglaze with the tomatoes. You shouldn’t need much olive oil or butter after the meats render. Saute the mirepoix after that. Add a little heavy cream at the end to really send it. Simmer for as long as you want. Four hours sounds about right.

    Really good as a layer in lasagna. Despite my wife’s high caloric needs, she doesn’t allow too much red meat, so this is a special treat kinda thing.

    Mine is different, sounds great but might kill me on the spot! With my problems being weight (I’ve lost 60 off my high – yay), high blood pressure (under control) and bad triglyceride counts, I try to avoid the red meats and I include pork in that. So while your beef, pork, mortadella and pancetta combo is absolutely mouthwatering, these days I stick to ground turkey (yeah, I know that loses a lot). I wouldn’t be adding the celery but yes to the carrots. And instead of Pinot, I’ve usually gone with a something fruitier and sweeter like a splash of Montepulciano d’Abruzzo to deglaze but Pinot seems like a good deal with the sausages and pork. And if I’m going to make a bolognese, odds are strong that I veer towards making meatballs instead.

    The reason that I make the meatless marinara is that Eggplant Parmigiana, is my favorite dish to both make and eat. I really don’t want meat in that. And while I love lasagna, that’s a lot of pasta for me. Having a batch of my marinara sauce on hand, means I can whip it up a healthy version of my parm in about 40 minutes. I air-fry the eggplant, use only egg whites, whole wheat flour and whole wheat breadcrumbs.

    Actually, it’s in the oven now :)

  350. Thanks for asking about my family, geo. My dad is doing well. Wuhan is now at a new normal, I think there are still restrictions on stuff but there aren’t new cases in the area anymore.

    My grandmother passed away a couple of weeks ago, which was really sad. She fell and broke her hip and then was in the hospital for a month after the surgery because of various complications. She went home to start physical therapy and I thought that she was on her way to recover, but she died a week later.

    At the very least, she was home when she died and her two children, my mom and my uncle, were at her side.

    She was 93 and still mentally very sharp, so while I sort of knew we wouldn’t have her for more than a few years, I didn’t expect to have to grieve her passing like this. I can’t imagine what it was like for her to fight to stay alive all alone in the hospital because of pandemic restrictions for 4 weeks.

    I drove from Michigan to Poughkeepsie and back for the funeral. It helped to be there in person for the service, after how isolated and disembodied everything was about trying to support her.

  351. that’s where I first heard those numbers quoted an I thought it rather striking.

    i’m fairly familiar with the whole single parent home thing – latchkey kids unite…pretty early on in school i found demographics interesting…

    it’s not so much the reality of the situation, but, rather how it was used…the purpose of the reference in that setting…

    listen, cnn is an endless loop of coronavirus and trump hate (except for those trump campaign ads)…i get both the what and the “why” – do you :)

  352. Yeah…. Dan Crenshaw is an ignorant putz

    Hey, you said it. But yes, Dan Crenshaw is an ignorant putz. I’ll give him this much credit, he’s much better at hiding it than, say, Corey Stewart or Marjorie Taylor Greene, two more of the QAnon morons.

  353. I’m trying to stay away from the politics here. In fact, my recent absences are due, in large part, to the rancor political discussion brings here.

    But I have been bothered recently by some things that have trickled into sports. Since I typically avoid the topic, I’ll declare myself a center-left democrat. Biden and Bloomberg is where I align.

    While I am all for BLM, The issue for me is the NBA slogan on the back. I feel like that is a horrible idea. It’s comes from a good place, but I fear the unintended consequences. This policy puts pressure on everyone to conform. Not wearing a slogan will single a player out. So I don’t think all of the players will be genuine when they wear it. To make things worse, what if you’re one of the many who’s family is split? Just look at the Conways (KellyAnn and George). Will John Doe piss off half his family by wearing it? What if that player has cops in his family? Let’s take it to the next step. What if John Doe decided to wear a jersey with the slogan “White Power”? How does that impact team dynamics?

    Just like there’s supposed to be a separation of church and state in this country, I think that sports is a bad place to mix in this sort of stuff. I’m curious how you all feel?

  354. Wait a minute. Jason Kidd is a serious candidate? Berman has to be trolling us.

    Who is even Berman’s inside source now that Mills is gone?

  355. Deeefense:
    Wait a minute.Jason Kidd is a serious candidate? Berman has to be trolling us.

    This is the worst outcome, beyond Mark Jackson bad. I saw that WWW is pushing him, which is concerning.

  356. awwwww man, sorry to hear that dough chew…a lot of emotional stuff going on around us, trying to process grief during this time must be very challenging…

    you’re right, now is a tough time in many places to need an extended stay in a hospital…that is good though to hear she was able to make it home and have her kids with her when she passed, thanks for sharing that…

    that’s a good bit of a drive you took, hopefully you had a chance to think things through a little bit…

  357. Looks like the NHL probably has the best plan for handling the pandemic: stay the fuck out of the US.

    Welp, I’m off to find the nearest sex worker and love the sadness out of them.

  358. GoNYGoNYGo

    Some white people are too dense to understand that when you say “Black Lives Matter” you are not saying “White, Yellow, Brown, Red etc.. Lives Don’t Matter”. What you are really saying is “Black Lives Matter TOO” as a way of pointing out that there is racism in the world that specifically impacts black people.

    If we just added the word “TOO” we could have avoided a lot of misunderstanding and turmoil.

    However, I think it’s fair to make a distinction between “Black Lives Matter” being used as a slogan to heighten awareness of racism and the organization Black Lives Matter that has an agenda that many black people have a problem with too (including athletes and television personalities).

    That’s another communication issue.

    If I say I don’t agree with Black Lives Matter a person might call me racist when I am simply disagreeing with a couple of the stated goals of the ORGANIZATION but fully supportive of the efforts to rid the country of any systematic racism and issues with policing.

    Personally, I prefer getting my political, economic, policing, racism, and statistical insights from experts in those areas and my insights into pick and roll defense from basketball players and not the other way around. I also think whenever you mix politics with anything else, you risk backlash. But the players should be free to do what they want and if the fans get turned off because they want sports and entertainment to be a diversion from the problems of the world so be it. Both are free to do what they want.

  359. Sorry for your loss, DC. I had an uncle die a few weeks back from respiratory failure (not COVID) and not being able to be with my family during a period of grief is tough, even if it’s an older person who was in failing health.

  360. I prefer getting my political, economic, policing, racism, and statistical insights from experts in those areas

    This from the new long-time poster who said that Russian kleptocrats are more free-market than American liberals. Fuck right out of here, bud! Fuck off! Fuck! The fuck! Off!

  361. “And here’s where we bring up systemic problems that create the differences in the rates of absentee fathers of different races.”

    You can bring them up all you want but they don’t explain things like this:

    “Educational differences explain some – but not all – of the racial and ethnic differences in non-marital births; even within educational categories, the racial differences in non-marital births persist. For example, among whites who recently gave birth, 92% of those with a college degree were married in 2014. By comparison, the share among blacks was 60%”

    or

    “.The marriage rate has declined across racial and ethnic groups, but the drop has been particularly dramatic among blacks. In 2014, some 35% of black adults ages 25 and older were married, compared with 60% of whites. In 1970, this gap was considerably smaller: Fully 60% of blacks and 76% of whites were married at that time.

    Across all groups, the declines in marriage have been driven largely by increasing shares of people who have never married. This is especially common among blacks; more than one-third of those ages 25 and older have never married, compared with just 17% of whites ages 25 and older.

    Divorce, too, contributes to racial and ethnic differences in the likelihood of being married. Marriages involving black women tend to be less stable than those of whites, Hispanics or Asians. About 56% of first marriages of black women will last until their tenth anniversary, compared with 68% among marriages of white women.

    Typically more education is linked to higher marriage rates, and the relatively low educational attainment of blacks is one factor underlying the low prevalence of marriage in this group. However, even controlling for education, racial differences persist. For instance, among college graduates, less than half (46%) of blacks were married in 2014, compared with 67% of whites.”

    https://www.pewsocialtrends

  362. “Fuck right out of here, bud! Fuck off! Fuck! The fuck! Off!”

    This is not the Sufi way, Jowles…..

  363. Report: Shootings up 142% and nearly all NYC June shooting victims were minorities

    “NBC Investigative Reporter Tom Winters tweeted:

    “Every single person who has been shot in New York City this July, nearly 100 in total, has been a member of the minority community and 97% of shooting victims in June were members of the city’s minority community, the NYPD says.”

    https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/shootings-up-142-nearly-all-nyc-june-shooting-victims-were-minorities/

    #blacklivesmatter #defundpolice #eliminateplainclothsedcops

  364. How to Undo Four Centuries of Violently Enforced Racism: Criticize the Left while Insisting that Everything Was Just Fine until a Few Dozen People Tried to Start an Autonomous Zone in a Remote Part of the Continental U.S.: A Five-Paragraph Essay by Bob Neptune, with a Foreword by Tucker Carlson

  365. good for you Go NY Go…that’s good you have your health in mind when you cook or eat stuff, i need to improve in that area…

    i have a situation that requires me to be careful with the type of foods i eat, i eat the wrong stuff – it’s gonna hurt…with my diabetes i haven’t really experienced any serious negative effects…i’ve gotten the light headed thing a few times, but, nothing serious…that may be one of the reasons i’m having a hard time getting that situation under control…my chocolate and cannabis consumption has done nothing but climbed since covid…

    Just like there’s supposed to be a separation of church and state in this country, I think that sports is a bad place to mix in this sort of stuff. I’m curious how you all feel?

    we’re a collective of sorts, therefore you kind of got to go with the flow at times…but yeah, i’m not that crazy about discussing politics or a lot of senseless back in forth arguing/”debates” about it, but, other folks are…

    shoot, i’m relatively new to the site still, so, i know a lot of these same discussions have probably been going on for many, many years…personally – i’d stick to sports, drugs, video games, books/movies/tv, family and faith (i’m not really that churchy – but, i find the topic fascinating – even more divisive than politics)…

    i do a lot of a day in the life posts, which isn’t really that appropriate for the site either, just to kind of have something to say…which, is probably a somewhat sad commentary on my life…

  366. Lord Bob.

    I was raised hearing about the Moynihan report. Did you know Moynihan came from a broken family? Or that whites currently have the same rates of single motherhood as Blacks did when it was written?

    Wait a minute, Dad, is that you?

  367. favorite fox news hosts:
    1). shannon bream, those eyes though…not that i’m stalking, read she actually has some serious eye condition…not sure if i can really remember any of her words…
    2). harris faulkner – not too terrible…
    3). bret baier – seems mostly even keel…

    most despicable fox news hosts:
    3). hannity – yeah
    2). tucker carlson – ugh
    1). laura ingraham – all i can picture is her hanging out in 1692 carrying a torch and burning folks at the stake…that is one truly hateful individual…i thought i could spit a little venom and spite, even on my worse day, i can’t even come close to matching her…

  368. This is the worst outcome, beyond Mark Jackson bad. I saw that WWW is pushing him, which is concerning.

    Nothing’s Mark Jackson bad, but yeah, Jason Kidd is pretty similar.

  369. In regard to Cancel Culture, I’m getting more and more optimistic that this awful reality show we’ve been forced to watch since November 2016 is getting cancelled in the fall.

  370. @Z-Man God I hope a lot of the insanity goes away if he gets voted out. I think Biden would help some. But I think social media just demolishes the ability to discuss anything, and that’s a big part of our problem of everyone rushing to characterize any person who disagrees (even if they agree on 99% of other things) as if they’re murderous, soulless demons. Trump and the virus are definitely making everyone a lot crazier on their own though.

  371. I just hope Trump’s tweet-storm demagoguery isn’t a game-changer in the future of politics. When 35% or so of the country actually love his tactics, and his opponents are more and more tweeting back in kind, it almost seems like a 7SoL-type sea change. I also worry that if he doesn’t lose by enough, he’ll rally the troops around the banner of voter fraud, and chant “THEY HATE AMERICA! all the way to the midterms, led by Hannity and Carleson. Just today, Tucker Carleson went to great lengths to defend his position that Tammy Duckworth hates America. And he’s the most popular guy on the talking heads circuit.

  372. “Seems like they’re saying “Don’t be like them! We’re better than that!”

    Maybe…. but it seems to have a little tinge of desperation like…”Holy shit…. these whackos we’ve helped empower are actually serious about what they’ve been saying and they’ve going to hunt us down like Stalin hunted down Trotsky.” For example listen to these geniuses:

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1280562421040656395

    or

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1278737212021104641

  373. stop getting high and watching Fox News!!

    you are absolutely right donnie :)

    i was 8 years old and riding around on the back of my cousin’s motorcycle when i first smoked pot (as it was called at the time)…i can’t remember if it was upstate or out on the island…i’m thinking ballston spa at another of my cousin’s wedding…

    it was sort of cosmic justice, my cousin had me by about 9 years, just so happens that my dad had him by about 9 years…i have no doubt dad led him down some wrong paths…

    when i was around 13 living out on the island i just happened to live a few doors away from some young guys who were fairly large dealers…i didn’t really know them, but, our neighborhood was full of drugs…started smoking full time then…

    out of five and a half decades here, i’ve been sober for about a decade and a half of that time…yeah, the word addiction comes to mind…i tell myself though i’m also addicted to breathing, eating and sleeping…i mean, why else would god stick an endocannabinoid system in us, right…might as well get good use from it…more useful than the appendix or pinky toe…

    fox news has a pretty large impact on our nation…i like to see what the “other side” is thinking or saying…there’s stuff you just won’t see on cnn…i know – all the large media news outlets are pretty much mush for the mind…

    plus, helps me to better understand some of our more conservative thinking community members here…ha, i don’t even know what conservatism means anymore…

  374. @bobneptune

    The Harper’s letter signees are pretty well spread across the political spectrum with the exception of trumpy alt-righters. David Brooks and Bari Weiss are both big voices on the center-right. I think the issue the letter addresses is important, and it’s obviously succeeded in creating quite a lot of attention, so even if I feel like it could have done a better job pointing out real vulnerable people who are victims of cancel culture, I’m still happy it exists.

    @Z-Man

    It’s social media. That’s the big problem IMO. Specifically the issue of trolls and bots along with algorithms that reward the most outrageous content. Say you are an activist of some repute… every time you tweet anything that gains any traction, you get flooded by bad faith arguers who are just there to work you up. They are supported by bots that are designed to boost the most combative and emotional perspectives.

    This makes ernest conversation impossible and so every social “debate” is a mix of virtue signalers looking to get in on the back patting or to one up each other in terms of how devout of a political actor they are. One way of showing your devoutness is to find someone who doesn’t follow the group’s code properly and mock them in as brutal a way possible. The only truly contrary opinions you read in your twitter are from those with such extreme views on the other side that they’ve already dehumanized the group they’re trolling and so take pleasure in getting them worked up.

    This process just keeps increasing polarization.

    I think Trump has accelerated this whole descent into madness but hopefully also has helped us begin confronting some of its demons. Things will get bettter w/o trump and w/o corona and w/o an election coming up. But long run I’m not liking this trajectory.

  375. “David Brooks and Bari Weiss are both big voices on the center-right.”

    David Brooks is certainly a nice enough fellow (well…. if you don’t consider he swapped out his wife for his 23 year younger assistant) but has no constituency on the right. Zero…. well maybe Bill Kristol and George Will. He’s popular on the left because he doesn’t believe in the small government brand of republicanism. He was a big proponent of 2003 Iraq War. There is no center right and there is no center left. Joe Leiberman couldn’t get elected dog catcher in the dem party today.

  376. It’s social media. That’s the big problem IMO.

    Social media and the vast majority of message boards are flat-out sewers. Twitter and Facebook are well on their way to doing what Hitler and Tojo couldn’t do, which is end the American republic.

    On the other topics du jour

    –Jason Kidd smh.

    –They haven’t always been called “the Knicks” and even today Mike Breen refers to them frequently, especially in the intros, as “the Knickerbockers.” When you rewatch the 1970 and 1973 playoff games, and even through 1989, the Garden PA announcer John Condon (?), when introducing the starting lineups, would say, “And now, here they are, the New York Knickerbockers.” It’s a fantastic name on every level and like a lot of these things has linguistically taken on, through years of use, a meaning entirely different than the literal original meaning of the word. (Which is why the OED usage tables all show the historical development of the usage of English words. Languages are living things.)

    –The woke continue to miss the massive impact deindustrialization had on the United States. The real tragedy is that we didn’t meld the massive racial progress between 1965 and today with the rip-roaring industrial economy of 1955-1980-ish. But instead we sold out our industry, consigning a bunch of people to crap jobs with crap wages, no health insurance, etc. (I always try to work back to real first causes, and that’s ultimately why we had someone like George Floyd passing bad $20s, when he should have been earning nice, consistent money as something like a union-backed plant foreman.) Corporations have bought off any criticism of their practices, though, at a very cheap price. Those kind of jobs should be subsidized, heavily if necessary. The American story of the past 50 years is that we sold out our economic base, in favor of an utterly unworkable “meritocracy.” Tragic.

  377. Oh, and one more — we’re apparently at the inevitable “Welcome to the Terrordome” (*) stage of this era’s dialectic, what with the Farrakhan/”Hitler” quotes and the Jew-blaming. Of course in the one kicked off 30-ish years ago by Tawana Brawley and a much younger Al Sharpton, and progressing through vehicles such as Do the Right Thing, there are more potential voices now because of social media.

    (*) Great tune; since I don’t really do folk songs, I pretty much ignore the literal meaning of lyrics.

  378. bobneptune:
    https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/

    Hmmmmm…. it looks like a whole bunch of card carrying leftists …… are getting a wee bit nervous “the movement” is about to start eating its own….. useful idiots something something…..

    I’ve got to agree 100% with the Harper’s letter. While you say “card carrying leftists”, this is a centrist position, actually, center-right. Your statement means that you’ve become so extreme, that you can’t even recognize traditional conservative positions. It negates almost every other argument that you make. It underscores an inability to question the militant dogma you espouse. That is what scares me. People like you, who might have once been rational, are now so blinded by venomous hatred of democracy.

    Take this line, from the summary statement: “This stifling atmosphere will ultimately harm the most vital causes of our time. The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive government or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. ” Can you not understand that this is a direct criticism of the far left that calls for the repression anyone that questions their movement. The article is an attack on the attackers of free speech.

    There is no center right and there is no center left. Joe Leiberman couldn’t get elected dog catcher in the dem party today.

    This might seem true, but I believe the vast majority of the nation sits there. Biden represents that core.

    One more thing. Luis Farrakhan is not a leftist. He’s a far-right, religious fanatic. He may be black, but nothing he espouses is anything “leftist”. He is a Trump of a different color.

  379. bobneptune: “Seems like they’re saying “Don’t be like them! We’re better than that!”

    Maybe…. but it seems to have a little tinge of desperation like…”Holy shit…. these whackos we’ve helped empower are actually serious about what they’ve been saying and they’ve going to hunt us down like Stalin hunted down Trotsky.” For example listen to these geniuses:

    The Right is trying to sell the narrative that those extremist fringe players ARE the Democratic party. Of course, it has no resemblance to the truth, but that never stopped guys like you. I mean, with Trump dropping like a stone, you need something, right?

  380. The woke continue to miss the massive impact deindustrialization had on the United States. The real tragedy is that we didn’t meld the massive racial progress between 1965 and today with the rip-roaring industrial economy of 1955-1980-ish. But instead we sold out our industry, consigning a bunch of people to crap jobs with crap wages, no health insurance, etc. (I always try to work back to real first causes, and that’s ultimately why we had someone like George Floyd passing bad $20s, when he should have been earning nice, consistent money as something like a union-backed plant foreman.) Corporations have bought off any criticism of their practices, though, at a very cheap price. Those kind of jobs should be subsidized, heavily if necessary. The American story of the past 50 years is that we sold out our economic base, in favor of an utterly unworkable “meritocracy.” Tragic.”

    So much this. The Pew survey I linked earlier noted the loss of lower middle class/middle class jobs in manufacturing as a major factor in the deterioration of the AA family. Until a non-college educated person can find a job with a truly livable wage the human suffering will continue.

    I know this will bring howls from the Greek Chorus, but anyone actually interested in black lives can listen to Thomas Sowell being interviewed on Sunday night by Mark Levin.

    Sowell is a 90 year old (looks about 65) AA Columbia/Harvard/U of Chicago trained economist who is a fellow at Hoover@ Stanford. He grew up as an avowed Marxist and left the dark side.

    His view on these things are seldom heard but worth considering.

  381. “The Right is trying to sell the narrative that those extremist fringe players ARE the Democratic party. Of course, it has no resemblance to the truth, but that never stopped guys like you. I mean, with Trump dropping like a stone, you need something, right?”

    The squad dragged Pelosi to the fringe left because she saw 3 months into this congress if she didn’t move she would be replaced as speaker by 2020.

    I know…. AOC, Omar and Tlaib are centerists, right?

  382. “This stifling atmosphere will ultimately harm the most vital causes of our time. The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive government or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and makes everyone less capable of democratic participation.”

    Enough with the “both sides bad”.

    It’s almost as if some people believe that civic discourse is the backbone of a democratic republic. And that if we actually listen to the other side and compromise, we could make tremendous, lasting progress.

    Pfft.

    Only we are right! The other side is dumb!!!

  383. “One more thing. Luis Farrakhan is not a leftist. He’s a far-right, religious fanatic. He may be black, but nothing he espouses is anything “leftist”. He is a Trump of a different color.”

    My God…. Farrakhan is likely the most anti-semetic, racist bigot in this country.

  384. E:
    Oh, and one more — we’re apparently at the inevitable “Welcome to the Terrordome” (*) stage of this era’s dialectic, what with the Farrakhan/”Hitler” quotes and the Jew-blaming.Of course in the one kicked off 30-ish years ago by Tawana Brawley and a much younger Al Sharpton, and progressing through vehicles such as Do the Right Thing, there are more potential voices now because of social media.

    (*) Great tune; since I don’t really do folk songs, I pretty much ignore the literal meaning of lyrics.

    Public Enemy is vastly underappreciated. They get much less attention than their contemporaries, N.W.A., but IMHO they surpassed them on most levels.

    Fight the power comes with great responsibility
    F the police but who’s stoppin’ you from killin’ me?

  385. Z-man: The Right is trying to sell the narrative that those extremist fringe players ARE the Democratic party. Of course, it has no resemblance to the truth,

    You’re right, the Right is trying to sell that.

    You’re also right that, today, they are on the fringe.

    But this is something that moderate people are going to buy. Because the lunatic fringe has gained a foothold, and when people like me look around and see who’s coming next in the Democratic party, they all seem to look more like the fringe than the centrists.

    Granted, I am admittedly biased living in the heart of Insanity-ville, good old NYC. My conversations with Midwestern Democrats assure me the national bent of the party is not the same as here. I find that reassuring but I still see what is in front of me, and it’s frightening.

  386. The right answer is now, always was, and will always be the liberalism of the Enlightenment — rationality, science, education, knowledge of great works, open debate, commitment to finding and supporting proven truth. Whether avowed or not, cancel culture is a regressive, illiberal enemy of that and therefore must be fought. As we’re seeing now, the philosophy has a lot of natural enemies, starting with the German romantics, including tribe and tribalism, and needs a lot of support to survive. Social media is proving to be an anti-Enlightenment force. It is in no sense the “natural” or “end of history” state of humankind. Other than whatever silent faction is out there — hopefully still a majority, but I doubt it — there is no serious political faction dedicated to actual liberalism.

  387. This is the narrative that the Right is selling:
    -If you aren’t okay with Trump tweeting “White Power” and saying that there’s good people chanting “Jews will not replace us!”, you’re the lunatic fringe.
    -If you’re not okay with police strangling and shooting unarmed black men, you’re the lunatic fringe.
    -If you’re not okay with public monuments to confederates, you’re the lunatic fringe
    -If you are not ok with reopening the entire economy and ditching masks during a pandemic, you’re the lunatic fringe.
    Shall I go on?

  388. When countries don’t function well, extreme positions gain favor. This country is not functioning well at the moment. If that doesn’t get fixed, extremist positions will probably grow.

  389. My God…. Farrakhan is likely the most anti-semetic, racist bigot in this country.

    Agreed. So was Hitler and the Nazis. So is the KKK. So are all right-wing groups. He’s not talking socialism and communism. Farrakhan is absolutely far right. Think about it.

  390. The political spectrum isn’t a straight line, but instead more like a boomerang or a warped piece of plywood. “Far left” and “far right” peel back on themselves and become for all relevant intents and purposes one and the same.

  391. Hubert: You’re right, the Right is trying to sell that.
    You’re also right that, today, they are on the fringe.

    But this is something that moderate people are going to buy. Because the lunatic fringe has gained a foothold, and when people like me look around and see who’s coming next in the Democratic party, they all seem to look more like the fringe than the centrists.

    Granted, I am admittedly biased living in the heart of Insanity-ville, good old NYC. My conversations with Midwestern Democrats assure me the national bent of the party is not the same as here. I find that reassuring but I still see what is in front of me, and it’s frightening.

    100% agree. The truth is that it’s a vocal minority. The vast majority of Americans are actually centrist, which is why Biden is the ideal candidate from a political persuasion. Biden’s warts (stutter, touchie-feelie, and a son that was employed by a Ukranian company) are so minor compared to his opponent.

    The Bernie babes (AOC, Omar and Tlaib) do not represent much of the Democratic party. Truth is, the best thing might be if they break away from the Democrats or are cast aside and form a leftist party, which would give the Democrats a cleaner path to wooing the center-right. I’m not sure if that would happen, but damn, I never thought that this son of holocaust survivors would be living under Nazi rule.

  392. Hubert: Enough with the “both sides bad”.

    It’s almost as if some people believe that civic discourse is the backbone of a democratic republic. And that if we actually listen to the other side and compromise, we could make tremendous, lasting progress.

    Pfft.

    Only we are right! The other side is dumb!!!

    This begs the question( if you good gents are willing to indulge me), when you read a post from one who you almost invariably disagree with ( eg. Bob and his ” Greek Chorus”), do you ever take the time and try to grok any merit his claim may have or immediately think about how to counter it?

  393. Z-man:
    This is the narrative that the Right is selling:
    -If you aren’t okay with Trump tweeting “White Power” and saying that there’s good people chanting “Jews will not replace us!”, you’re the lunatic fringe.
    -If you’re not okay with police strangling and shooting unarmed black men, you’re the lunatic fringe.
    -If you’re not okay with public monuments to confederates, you’re the lunatic fringe
    -If you are not ok with reopening the entire economy and ditching masks during a pandemic, you’re the lunatic fringe.
    Shall I go on?

    You can go on for as long as your imagination can come up with these things.

  394. It’s social media. That’s the big problem IMO. Specifically the issue of trolls and bots along with algorithms that reward the most outrageous content. Say you are an activist of some repute… every time you tweet anything that gains any traction, you get flooded by bad faith arguers who are just there to work you up. They are supported by bots that are designed to boost the most combative and emotional perspectives.

    On a recent episode of Lawfare Podcast, a Saudi Arabia expert talked about how MBS funded a fairly small troll farm that would simply get in early on Twitter and Facebook political discussions and flood a comment with likes and comments, steering the conversation however they wished. The correspondent said it didn’t take much capital at all. Any group that doesn’t give a fuck about optics (CCP, Saudi Arabia, other oil states, GRU, the GOP) would be foolish not to do the same.

  395. Hubert: You can go on for as long as your imagination can come up with these things.

    I guess you don’t listen to Trumps speeches or Hannity or Carleson, who say this over and over. Anyone that disputes the president in any way is the radical fringe. The Democratic party is a monolith. War hero Tammy Duckworth hates America. Sen. Kennedy said if the Democrats get elected, better build a fallout shelter. But yeah, it’s my imagination.

  396. Demographics are not going to be pretty for the GOP by the end of this decade. Like it or not, the Millennials, Gen Z’s and whatever comes after them are not real responsive to Confederate Flagism and the rest of the Archie Bunker agenda that the GOP is pushing. You think shit is woke now, just wait until most Boomers have shuffled off the coil and the country is made up mostly of Millennials and Z’s. There’s a coming demographic apocalypse for Republicans and Trump is simply hastening the process. They might be able to squeeze out one more win with the Archie Bunker shit (probably not) but long-term they have some serious branding problems.

  397. I can’t remember who but there was a tweet that went around a few days ago from a conservative warning that if Biden got elected, Republicans would be hunted next year and it would be the start of a marxist revolution in this country.

    I had to eye roll and laugh so hard at that. Literally no one on the “far left” is excited about Biden. He’s about as moderate and mainstream as you can get. The idea that Comrade Biden would lead a far left bolshevick style revolution in this country is beyond laughable.

  398. Z-man: I guess you don’t listen to Trumps speeches or Hannity or Carleson

    bingo

    but if you have a clip of trump, hannity, or carlson saying “you’re a lunatic if you’re not okay with the police shooting unarmed black men”, I’ll watch it and admit that I was wrong.

  399. JK47:
    Demographics are not going to be pretty for the GOP by the end of this decade. Like it or not, the Millennials, Gen Z’s and whatever comes after them are not real responsive to Confederate Flagism and the rest of the Archie Bunker agenda that the GOP is pushing. You think shit is woke now, just wait until most Boomers have shuffled off the coil and the country is made up mostly of Millennials and Z’s. There’s a coming demographic apocalypse for Republicans and Trump is simply hastening the process. They might be able to squeeze out one more win with the Archie Bunker shit (probably not) but long-term they have some serious branding problems.

    There was a time when the conservative greatest generation said the same thing about those crazy liberal boomers.

    There’s a reason variations of the phrase: “If you’re not a liberal at 25, you’ve got no heart; if you’re not conservative at 45, you’ve got no brain” have been around since the 19th century.

    Conservatives always replenish their ranks.

    But yeah, they’re going to have to rebrand after they divorce from Trump.

  400. It’s a double whammy though because the country is also getting less white. Rapidly. So the “young people become more conservative when they get older” thing might not play out so much in the future.

    And the sheer numbers of Millennials and Z’s that identify as Democrats… well, it’s pretty eye-popping. In 2018 Pew clocked the gap at 59 D, 32 R, including leaners. That was actually up from 2014, when it was a 53-37 split.

    The Z’s? They’re even more ethnically diverse, and just as much if not more liberal than the Millennials.

  401. While it is true that people tend to get more conservative the older they get, are we certain that is going to play out with Millenials and Z the same way it did with Boomers?

    Think about it. People tend to get more conservative when they get older because they start families, buy houses, start to make and save more money at their jobs. They invest more, etc.

    But wages aren’t going up for the vast majority of people. Young people aren’t buying houses. They aren’t saving for retirement. They aren’t getting raises at their jobs. They aren’t making more money to invest. If you aren’t making more money, starting a family, etc…are you really going to become more conservative when you get older? Or are you going to want liberal programs like universal health care, a stronger social safety net, etc?

  402. The conversation constantly evolves, though, JK.

    The GOP agenda in 2016 was nothing like the agenda under Romney 4 years prior. So I don’t think it’s reasonable to project that in 2024 the GOP is going to still be pushing the Trump agenda.

    Aa for the ethnic makeup of the country, I think the GOP is going to become more ethnically diverse bc the wealth is being spread. The consistent allure of the GOP is lower taxes. As soon as they move off the Trump agenda, it’s going to be easier for the burgeoning upper middle class POC to vote with his wallet.

  403. Hubert: but if you have a clip of trump, hannity, or carlson saying “you’re a lunatic if you’re not okay with the police shooting unarmed black men”, I’ll watch it and admit that I was wrong.

    Why not just hold me to the same standard of proof that you do yourself, like when you made the following comment earlier in the thread?

    Hubert: It was only a matter of time til someone blamed the holocaust on Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, et al.

    You are more prone to selective listening than anyone on this site, other than perhaps bob and strat. You say that you don’t listen to Trump or Hannity or Carleson, but you have the audacity to opine on what they say or don’t say. You probably would argue with people on the left that when Trump retweeted a guy last week who chanted “White Power!” it was just an accident, then argue with people on the right that it is proof that he’s a racist. Must be nice not having a core, you can just bust everyone’s chops without taking a stand on anything!

  404. Also, while people might become more fiscally conservative as they get older, Millenials and Z’s aren’t going to flock to a Republican party that now overtly embraces white nationalism.

  405. I don’t doubt the Republicans will peel off some Millennials in the long run.

    But 59-32 doe! How do you come back from that? The Millennials aren’t super young either, the oldest ones are now in their mid-30’s.

  406. Z-man: You say that you don’t listen to Trump or Hannity or Carleson, but you have the audacity to opine on what they say or don’t say. You probably would argue with people on the left that when Trump retweeted a guy last week who chanted “White Power!” it was just an accident, then argue with people on the right that it is proof that he’s a racist. Must be nice not having a core, you can just bust everyone’s chops without taking a stand on anything!

    I just think you exercised aggressive hyperbole. Was I wrong?

    And I have to say, this is the first time in my life I’ve ever been accused if not taking a stand on anything!

    My core doesn’t align with many others here, but I think it’s pretty obvious I have one, and I stand on it all the time. Way too much, in fact.

  407. So I don’t think it’s reasonable to project that in 2024 the GOP is going to still be pushing the Trump agenda.

    Donald Trump Job Approval by Party Identification, Gallup

    Republicans Independents Democrats

    2020 Jun 8-30 91 33 2
    2020 May 28-Jun 4 85 39 5
    2020 May 1-13 92 46 14
    2020 Apr 14-28 93 47 8
    2020 Apr 1-14 93 39 7
    2020 Mar 13-22 92 43 13
    2020 Mar 2-13 91 35 7
    2020 Feb 17-28 92 42 8
    2020 Feb 3-16 93 43 6
    2020 Jan 16-29 94 42 7
    2020 Jan 2-15 88 37 10

    Do you honestly use the 2012 Romney loss as evidence that the GOP may abandon a platform with 91% approval, after Ukraine aid, Russia bounties, an open embrace of white nationalism and an incredible fuck-up during the worst American crisis of our lifetime, that has left 130,000 Americans dead with tens of thousands, at least, yet to die horrible deaths, separated from their loved ones as they suffocate toward organ failure?

    Okay! Sounds about right to me!

  408. There was a great bit in Rolling Stone where the author talked to a bunch of GOP strategists off the record and they explain how you can’t even talk about possibly moving away from Trump right now if you’re a Republican politician, because Trump’s numbers among Republicans are so high. Republicans are all in with Trump’s BS.

  409. Hubert:
    The conversation constantly evolves, though, JK.

    The GOP agenda in 2016 was nothing like the agenda under Romney 4 years prior. So I don’t think it’s reasonable to project that in 2024 the GOP is going to still be pushing the Trump agenda.

    Aa for the ethnic makeup of the country, I think the GOP is going to become more ethnically diverse bc the wealth is being spread. The consistent allure of the GOP is lower taxes. As soon as they move off the Trump agenda, it’s going to be easier for the burgeoning upper middle class POC to vote with his wallet.

    And down here in the South stuff like gun rights. Seriously, that’s a big issue for lots of right leaning white folks who keep getting told that the liberals will one day come for their guns. Just throw a lot of fear mongering at the wall and some of it sticks.

    One of our Senate seats is up this fall, and the two main Republican candidates are not running away from Trump at all. One guy is clearly running as “Trump’s choice” and the other, Dr. Manny Sethi (look him up) is warning of a sort of illegal immigration apocalypse that might come. IIRC one of his ads uses the word “invasion” to describe it. Once one gets the party nomination, he’ll win in November.

    Even if Trump loses in a landslide, which I doubt, gonna take awhile to clean the stink off, if at all…

  410. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Donald Trump Job Approval by Party Identification, Gallup

    RepublicansIndependentsDemocrats

    2020 Jun 8-3091332
    2020 May 28-Jun 485395
    2020 May 1-13924614
    2020 Apr 14-2893478
    2020 Apr 1-1493397
    2020 Mar 13-22924313
    2020 Mar 2-1391357
    2020 Feb 17-2892428
    2020 Feb 3-1693436
    2020 Jan 16-2994427
    2020 Jan 2-15883710

    Do you honestly use the 2012 Romney loss as evidence that the GOP may abandon a platform with 91% approval, after Ukraine aid, Russia bounties, an open embrace of white nationalism and an incredible fuck-up during the worst American crisis of our lifetime, that has left 130,000 Americans dead with tens of thousands, at least, yet to die horrible deaths, separated from their loved ones as they suffocate toward organ failure?

    Okay! Sounds about right to me!

    But this is a game you guys play with data

    You look at that and say “91% of republicans approve of racism and white supremacy” because that’s how your side has defined Trump. But that’s not an actual honest reading of the data.

    Trump is a fucking Rorschach. Many people who approve of Trump don’t see what you see. In fact, many people just approve of trump simply because they hate democrats and democrats hate him. The more he makes dems irrationally angry, the more they like him, and they can ignore all the rest because they live in an echo chamber like most of the country.

  411. Hubert: I’m sorry, but I don’t believe that 91% of republicans approve of the white power tweet or the way he mocked a disabled reporter.I think they were just capable of ignoring it.

    I agree with Hubert. It is probably more like 70%.

  412. I agree with Hubert. It is probably more like 70%.

    Yep, and then the other 20% will just vote for him because they won’t vote for a Democrat. But they strongly disapprove of his comments!

  413. They never set foot in your world. The things that make you irate don’t even get play in theirs. 70% probably don’t even know what you’re talking about.

  414. And that 70% is just SOOOO ACCEPTING of people like McCain (rip) or Romney or Flake or Corker or Mattis or Tilleson or Steve Schmidt or Justice Roberts or other lifelong conservatives who have the audacity to take non-extreme right-wing positions or who actively criticize Trump. I’m SURE that when Trump gets trounced in November, they’ll all say “well, maybe we went a bit too far, we need to moderate our stands to appeal to more voters. I mean, how hard should it be to reprogram them after hearing Fox News and OAN blaring 24-7-365 “THEY HATE AMERICA!” “THEY WANT TO TURN US INTO A MARXIST STATE” “THEY WANT ANARCHY!” “THEY WANT TO ERASE OUR HERITAGE AND HISTORY!” “THEY ARE TAKING AWAY YOUR 2ND AMENDMENT!” “THE SQUAD IS IN CHARGE!”

  415. Hubert:
    They never set foot in your world. The things that make you irate don’t even get play in theirs. 70% probably don’t even know what you’re talking about.

    You don’t know the first fucking thing about my world or who sets foot in it. But not knowing your ass from your elbow on a given matter has ever stopped you from having an opinion, has it?

  416. Some non-zero amount of Republicans actually LIKED the white power tweet. Another large non-zero number just bought Kayleigh McEnany’s spin about it, that Trump, uh, “didn’t hear” the MAGA dude say “white power.” Another small number probably rationalized it in some other way. “Well I don’t like the way he talks but I like his policies” or whatever.

    Perhaps some tiny number thought “‘my God that is appalling and I might have to start referring to myself as an Independent.”

  417. Here, let’s ask bob, what did you think of the “white power” tweet? Multiple choice.

    A. What’s wrong with that tweet? It was fine
    B. I believe Trump and Kayleigh when they say Trump didn’t hear the guy shouting “white power” eight seconds into the video
    C. I don’t like the way he talks sometimes but man his economic policies are sweet
    D. That was appalling and I won’t try to defend it
    E. Some mixture of B and C

    Answer key: E

  418. 63% of Fox News viewers believe that Trump has done an excellent job of handling the COVID-19 pandemic. But sure, they’ll be jumping off the hard-right crazy train any day now!

  419. bobneptune:

    You can bring them up all you want but they don’t explain things like this:

    Oh my god, Bob! You learned how to use correlational studies again! This is amazing!!!

    Input: This study helps me
    Output: Correlations = Causation

    Input: This study doesn’t help me
    Output: Correlation != Causation

    Yes, if we ignore all the structural issues that exist regardless of a person’s bachelor’s degree then it’s almost like structural racism doesn’t exist. Surprisingly enough a bachelor’s degree doesn’t make a person less black.

    See generally, any studies looking at CVs & resumes of any non-white male sounding names that get ignored in favor of white male sounding names despite the resumes being identical. There’s a lot of them.

    Bob, no one is calling you racist or thinks white people deserve some inordinate amount of guilt. But these are actual factors in the lives of minorities and if people don’t acknowledge that they happen, then they can’t be fixed. Not everything is yelling overt slurs and other denigrations (like, our president) but can be as simple as saying “hi” to the white guy in the office while walking past any of the minorities. These small instances add up, you can read micromotives and macrobehavior to see how small differences on an individual level create large disproportionate opportunities.

    Moreover, much of this behavior is unconscious. The Implicit Association Test, the basis of several studies run by Harvard, has ample data on unconscious associations with members of different races and demonstrates how people have internalized racial notions regardless of the views they are willing to explicitly articulate. Yes, this includes you, white people, me, other minorities, etc.

    And if you do feel even a smidgen of white guilt, then you feel a fraction of how minorities feel and get treated every day in…

  420. Z-man: You don’t know the first fucking thing about my world or who sets foot in it. But not knowing your ass from your elbow on a given matter has ever stopped you from having an opinion, has it?

    It’s kinda weird that you thought I meant Z-Man’s personal space when I was clearly referencing the schism between what’s reported in the left media and the right media.

  421. How could you possibly know anything about the degree to which anyone steps in any world? You are pulling stuff out of your ass based on your own subjective generalizations. No surprise there.

  422. The real answer to the “white power” tweet is that the expected reaction of white people to a country becoming more tribal and reductionist identitarian by the minute would be to … surprise! … become more tribal and reductionist identitarian.

    Why anyone could possibly prefer that state of affairs to the universalist alternative is an utter mystery. If white people really and truly become really into their whiteness (as opposed to imaginary into it as they are now), they still have a lot of numbers. A lot. Indeed, this was a not insignificant factor in delivering Trump 2016. So the message to insistent tribalists would be: Be careful what you wish for. 2020-style cancelling and “only white people can be racist!!!” can only do so much. This moment will only last so long.

  423. The good news for Trump is that his “brand” will be stronger than ever when he gets defeated. I am guessing that he’ll be on Fox News nonstop with Hannity and Carleson, doing everything he can to prevent a shifting of the conservative mindset that would suggest that he might have been wrong about a few things. I could also imagine him taking over OAN and bringing his buddies along with him so he won’t have to worry about the Chris Wallaces and Bret Baiers of the world (notice how he’s been ragging on Fox and promoting OAN lately.) There is a tremendous marketing opportunity in his diehard base and you can be sure he’s gonna exploit it for every penny, no matter what it means for the country.

  424. Z-man:
    How could you possibly know anything about the degree to which anyone steps in any world? You are pulling stuff out of your assbased on your own subjective generalizations. No surprise there.

    I suggested the existence of echo chambers, and you’re saying it’s pure malarkey that I must have invented myself. Ok, Z-Man.

  425. E:
    The real answer to the “white power” tweet is that the expected reaction of white people to a country becoming more tribal by the minute would be to … surprise! … become more tribal.

    Why anyone could possibly prefer that state of affairs to the universalist alternative is an utter mystery.If white people really and truly become really into their whiteness (as opposed to imaginary into it as they are now), they still have a lot of numbers.A lot.Indeed, this was a not insignificant factor in delivering Trump 2016.So the message to insistent tribalists would be:Be careful what you wish for. 2020-style cancelling and “only white people can be racist!!!” can only do so much.This moment will only last so long.

    So you’re saying that this anti-racism/sexism/homophobia/xenophobia thing is just a fad?

  426. Hubert: I suggested the existence of echo chambers, and you’re saying it’s pure malarkey that I must have invented myself. Ok, Z-Man.

    You “suggested?” Oh, sounded like a definitive statement to me. Let’s take a look:

    They never set foot in your world. The things that make you irate don’t even get play in theirs. 70% probably don’t even know what you’re talking about.

    You be the judge.

  427. I’m saying you won’t like a world in which white people become really into their whiteness and tribal, nor will I, and so it’s best not to do things that will naturally engender that world.

    Just as the liberal ideas of the Enlightenment will always be the proper ideas, so too will the racially universalist ideas of someone like MLK and countless others — themselves a product of enlightened liberalism — always be properly preferred to tribalism and reductionist identitarianism. These are timeless ideas, superior ideas — regardless of their temporary standing in whatever time in whatever place.

  428. Sure, man. I definitely believe there are echo chambers in the US.

    Your opposition to this idea is a strange hill to die on.

  429. Hubert: Sure, man. I definitely believe there are echo chambers in the US.

    Your opposition to this idea is a strange hill to die on.

    If that’s what you meant, then that’s what you should have said. It’s really not that difficult.

  430. cancel culture is a regressive, illiberal enemy of that and therefore must be fought.

    2020-style cancelling can only do so much.

    What is ‘cancel culture’ to you? Confederate statues getting torn down? Media personalities getting dogpiled on Twitter? It’s a vague, meaningless term often used by crybabies who don’t like to be criticized.

    Unless you’re talking about ‘cancel culture’ on an institutional level as it pertains to a guy like Norman Finkelstein or something. I doubt you are though.

  431. Ask Amy Cooper what cancel culture is, or ask that uber-Karen and her husband/partner in Pacific Heights what cancel culture is. They’ll tell you. In broad strokes, it’s the alliance between Twitter mobs and corporations/workplaces to sanction private conduct surreptitiously recorded, with things like job firings.

    We can start to extend it out to things like the movement to cancel Hamilton. There are other manifestations as well. The ignoble, illiberal alliance is typically but not always between Twitter mobs and feckless businesses.

    “There’s no such thing as cancel culture” is as odd a hill to die on as “There’s no such thing as echo chambers.”

  432. Fuck Amy Cooper. I’m glad she got canceled. She could have gotten somebody fucking killed.

    If you act like a piece of garbage, guess what? There are consequences. Boo fucking hoo. You have the right to say whatever you want but you don’t have a constitutional right to make big bucks at a hedge fund.

    If there was a video of her taking a shit on Fifth Avenue she probably would have lost that job too. Turns out corporations don’t like being associated with garbage human beings. Invisible hand, consult your Ayn Rand, free markets, thanks for playing.

  433. “And if you do feel even a smidgen of white guilt, then you feel a fraction of how minorities feel and get treated every day in…”

    EB… I understand your reply is in good faith but I just disagree with a lot of what you said.

    I don’t feel a smidgen of “white guilt” because I don’t view myself a compartmentalized statistic. I consider myself an individual who is responsible for what I have done (good and bad) and not what Thomas Jefferson did 200 years ago or what Alexander Fleming did a hundred years ago. I am responsible for what Bob did/does/will do.

    I have an idea how minorities feel not because I virtue signal or have read Harvard studies but because from 1975-2000 I ran a small business with 10-15 employees and all but 3 of them were black. The horse racing business is a rather transient business yet I had guys work for me for 15 and 18 years. You know why…. not because I was woke…. but because I was a good boss who didn’t break anybodies balls if they did their work up to expectations and I paid my employees well above scale. I didn’t do that because I was a philanthropist, but because I was a capitalist and I knew if quality people wanted to work for me I would make more money…. and I did.

    Do I understand there is some racism in hiring… sure but I’m not responsible for it and feel no guilt. I support any antidiscrimination in hiring law and would like them all enforced.

    But the #1 factor that keeps the poor, poor isn’t “systemic racism” but the lack of good paying middle class jobs for able bodied citizens , God awful schools in urban areas as well as the lack of 2 parent families.

    That’s where the solution lies and not in changing the name of Ft Bragg.

    Willie Sutton was famously asked once , “Why do you rob banks” to which he replied… “Cause that’s where they keep the money!” If one actually cares about people look to actual solutions that have a chance of working.

  434. Fuck Amy Cooper. I’m glad she got canceled. She could have gotten somebody fucking killed.

    It’s a good thing the left stopped promoting their national campaign to #believewomen every time they accuse a man of something. Without his phone, that man could have been fucked.

  435. I’m glad she got canceled. She could have gotten somebody fucking killed.

    No, she couldn’t have. That’s a leftist exaggeration nonpareil. There was literally zero chance C. Cooper would have been killed by the police if they’d actually shown up, which they didn’t. They would have shown up, seen the woman was nuts, and moved on. As they do in tens of thousands of these kind of encounters yearly.

    But, like I said, there is indeed such a thing as cancel culture and this back and forth is merely further proof of the obvious.

    But the #1 factor that keeps the poor, poor isn’t “systemic racism” but the lack of good paying middle class jobs for able bodied citizens ,

    Anyone who wants to be actually educated about this stuff with serious works by serious people should put suburban white chick claptrap like “White Fragility” (lol) off to the side and start with William Julius Wilson’s work. Then turn to maybe something like the very recent “Deaths of Despair.” You also have to understand the process of social and geographic sorting that has gone on over the last 40-ish years; there I’d recommend things like Edward Luce’s “The Retreat of Western Liberalism,” Mark Lilla’s, “The Once and Future Liberal,” George Packer’s, “The Unwinding,” and Robert Putnam’s “Our Kids.” Charles Murray’s “Coming Apart” is very good too, but I realize his controversial reputation.

    The “elites” have effectively seceded from America, sorted themselves geographically and by marriage, sold out our good jobs, and now they want to start a race war to keep a united and definitive group from questioning their privileges and prerogatives. That’s a bit reductionist, to be sure, but it’s a big part of what’s going on. They’ve succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. While they make their fake “confessions” of “systemic racism” here we are, at each other’s throats, talking about everything but their past and their privileges and prerogatives and their sellout of the country. As Mad Dog Russo might say, “Masterful job by them, Mikey.”

  436. Anyone who wants to be actually educated about this stuff with serious works by serious people should put suburban white chick claptrap like “White Fragility” (lol) off to the side and start with William Julius Wilson’s work. Then turn to maybe something like the very recent “Deaths of Despair.” You also have to understand the process of social and geographic sorting that has gone on over the last 40-ish years; there I’d recommend things like Edward Luce’s “The Retreat of Western Liberalism,” Mark Lilla’s, “The Once and Future Liberal,” George Packer’s, “The Unwinding,” and Robert Putnam’s “Our Kids.” Charles Murray’s “Coming Apart” is very good too, but I realize his controversial reputation.

    Cliffs notes?

  437. From the Republican die hards that I know they don’t give a rat’s ass what Trump tweets and how racist he is, all they care about is not having a Democrat as President.

  438. Cliffs notes?

    Deindustrialization, plus my last paragraph. The cliff notes version of US history since 1980 is social and geographic sorting, secession of the elites, deindustrialization.

    I’d actually add to the reading list the two volumes of German Jew Victor Klemperer’s diaries between 1933 and 1945 for a first hand, day by day account of living under actual Nazi — as opposed to “Nazi” lol — rule. All of the hysterical “Nazi” and “fascist” nonsense of today is purely a product of social media. Without social media, it wouldn’t exist. Pre social media, David Fucking Duke, Klan Wizard, was winning offices.

  439. The GOP agenda in 2016 was nothing like the agenda under Romney 4 years prior. So I don’t think it’s reasonable to project that in 2024 the GOP is going to still be pushing the Trump agenda.

    I just had to laugh when I saw this. Here’s the GOP platform of 1864.

    Here are some samplings:

    Resolutions #1 and #2 calls the rebels traitors “….bringing to the punishment due to their crimes the Rebels and traitors arrayed against it….prosecute the war with the utmost possible vigor to the complete suppression of the Rebellion”.

    Resolution #8 is my favorite: “8. Resolved, That foreign immigration, which in the past has added so much to the wealth, development of resources and increase of power to the nation, the asylum of the oppressed of all nations, should be fostered and encouraged by a liberal and just policy.”

    Resolution #11 ain’t bad either: “11. Resolved, That we approve the position taken by the Government that the people of the United States can never regard with indifference the attempt of any European Power to overthrow by force or to supplant by fraud the institutions of any Republican Government on the Western Continent and that they will view with extreme jealousy, as menacing to the peace and independence of their own country, the efforts of any such power to obtain new footholds for Monarchical Government, sustained by foreign military force, in near proximity to the United States.”

  440. Man, it is on in here today…

    same shit but with a few different voices, and maybe some better references – I like it…wish I had time to check through all these linked sources…

    where do you think fox news finds all these african-americans to support republican “ideals” and back trump…

    I wouldn’t know where to find it, but, I wonder how much black participation in the republican party has changed over the last 3 years..

  441. I guess I’m late to this but ‘cancel culture’ is people who are traditionally punched down at standing up for themselves and punching up. It is people suffering consequences for their words and deeds that never would have paid a price before. So your typical suspects are absolutely outraged: everybody who signed that idiotic letter* is a person in a position of authority who is scared and upset that people are now publicly criticizing them instead of just accepting whatever they say as wisdom delivered from on high. That’s it. People for whom actions have never had consequences and now discovering that sometimes they do have consequences, and they are trying to shut down any and all criticism as a result. My favorite genre of this is the “major newspaper won’t publish my thoughts on a subject which is censorship” article published via another major outlet.** “Cancel culture” is a buzzword created by people who are attempting to shut down any dissent they are losing the argument in the public sphere.

    *which provides no actual examples of any of the claims it makes, and conflates social consequences with censorship backed by the violence of the state. Because getting fired from your job for making your company look bad is exactly the same as the CCP throwing thousands of HKers into forced labor camps.

    **second favorite is the crys of ‘too far’ and ‘unfair’ after someone loses their public-facing job for doing something heinous in public. GTFO.

  442. JK47: Fuck Amy Cooper. I’m glad she got canceled. She could have gotten somebody fucking killed.

    If you act like a piece of garbage, guess what? There are consequences. Boo fucking hoo. You have the right to say whatever you want but you don’t have a constitutional right to make big bucks at a hedge fund.
    So how do you feel about DeShawn Watson and Stephen Jackson? I don’t believe a word of Watson’s apology and fuck Stephen Jackson who doubled down on his bigotry.

    bobneptune:
    But the #1 factor that keeps the poor, poor isn’t “systemic racism” but the lack of good paying middle class jobs for able bodied citizens , God awful schools in urban areas as well as the lack of 2 parent families.

    Bob, totally disagree with you and your own statements are the reason. Why are there not enough good paying middle class jobs? Why are schools in urban areas so bad? Why are there less 2-parent families? You see, those are the symptoms of “systemic racism”.

    But to give you credit, when you said:

    the loss of lower middle class/middle class jobs in manufacturing as a major factor in the deterioration of the AA family. Until a non-college educated person can find a job with a truly livable wage the human suffering will continue.

    you were correct.

    The poor black person and the poor white person suffer the same. What is so evil about the GOP is that they are using blacks and mexicans the same way that Hitler used Jews and Gypsys. They are scapegoating them. Similarly, the fascist Farakhan, is scapegoating Jews and idiots like DeShawn Watson and Stephen Jackson are lapping it up. That is the right-wing, fascist tactic.

  443. well Go Ny Go, now that you’ve dipped your toes in to this not always so civil discourse of political ideology and social behavior – how ya liking it?

    i don’t know, as long as you don’t take what’s said here too seriously (although at times extremely serious subject matter) – it kinda seems a bit therapeutic to get shit off your mind :)

    just don’t forget – we all gotta eat too, and, seems like you may have some skills with the cooking food stuff…

  444. Why are there not enough good paying middle class jobs?

    Because they were all shipped overseas by the same “woke” corporate elite now “confessing” their “systemic racism.” It’s an absurdist spectacle.

    Why are schools in urban areas so bad?

    Are they, though? The real question in any event is “Why have we made going to “good” schools so important to life prospects?”

    Why are there less 2-parent families?

    Mostly capitalism, tiny bit culture. It’s extremely difficult to keep mind, family, body, soul together when both parents have to work long hours for crap wages to make the money one person used to be able to make in fewer hours. Deindustrialization is why the lack of 2 parent families became a big thing among whites, too.

    Our jobs and our wages got sold out. The 1% took all the productivity gains for itself. That’s the American story 1980-2020. That and the founding of social media. Those two things explain virtually every part of our present predicament.

    You see, those are the symptoms of “systemic racism”.

    Not really. See above. I could be sold on the idea that “meritocracy” is systemically racist, but I’d be fine doing away with many of its features. It’s been very good to me, but it’s very bad for the country as a whole. I much prefer its predecessor.

  445. BigBlueAL:
    From the Republican die hards that I know they don’t give a rat’s ass what Trump tweets and how racist he is, all they care about is not having a Democrat as President.

    Agreed, and it reminds me a couple of lines from the song “White Man in Hammersmith Palais”, by you-know-who:

    If Adolf Hitler flew in today
    They’d send a limousine anyway

  446. geo:
    well Go Ny Go, now that you’ve dipped your toes in to this not always so civil discourse of political ideology and social behavior – how ya liking it?

    i don’t know, as long as you don’t take what’s said here too seriously (although at times extremely serious subject matter) – it kinda seems a bit therapeutic to get shit off your mind :)

    just don’t forget – we all gotta eat too, and, seems like you may have some skills with the cooking food stuff…

    I have time on my hands since COVID has placed me into temporary retirement, so I jumped in. I am less concerned about Dem vs. GOP. I am more concerned about the bigotry issues. White vs Black, Black vs Jew. It all proves that anyone can be a scum-bucket bigot. The litmus test for bigotry is when any group is lumped together. When a phrase such as “blacks are…” or “Jews are…” is uttered, it makes my skin crawl. I’m OK if you say “Stephen Jackson is scum” because it’s about a single person. If someone were to imply that he spoke for all blacks, it’s prejudice and wrong. I would much rather talk hoops, but I appreciate the multi-cultural aspect of this board when it comes to those specific social issues.

    BTW, on tonight’s menu is Chicken Marsala over whole wheat linguini. Yeah, it’s lo-fat, lo-cal too!

  447. I would much rather talk hoops

    well now then – the most important question of the day: where do you stand on the great frank debate?

  448. E: Are they, though? The real question in any event is “Why have we made going to “good” schools so important to life prospects?”

    OMG did I really just read this?!

  449. You don’t need to read 100 books to know that global elites have drained the lower classes of money and time to the point that they’re all about to collapse.

    CEO pay has jumped 1000% over the last 50 years, which is ridiculous.

    Who can do anything about it? A government that isn’t on the dole. That’s why so many people responded to the Sanders campaign. Taking jobs overseas in the 80s was just bottom-line capitalism. It’s the same people who don’t want to raise the minimum wage or refuse to close tax loopholes.

    In fact, these necessary protests were pretty much inconceivable until the entire population had to stay home from jobs and school. Why do you think repubs want to reopen the economy so badly?

  450. geo: well now then – the most important question of the day: where do you stand on the great frank debate?

    I had a to-do about Frank earlier in this thread with Z-man. I was the one that compared him to Trevor Ariza :)

    Owen:
    Every internet argument ends with Hitler right?
    I need the NBA too

    Not every one, but when DeShaun Jackson quoted Hitler, well, that presses a hot button.

  451. Cancel culture and complaints about freedom of speech have become a coded terms because they are used disingenuously by the right when they are called out for their prejudices.

    The unfortunate side effect is that it’s not possible anymore to talk about actual freedom of speech concerns because as soon as most left wingers hear “freedom of speech”, they translate it to meaning, “let me say my racist thing.”

    How do we have an actual conversation about freedom of speech… you know, the right that has empowered so many progressive causes?

    And in the bigger picture, what does this say about the political climate’s effect on the usefulness of our language when we no longer have access to words that mean “freedom of speech”?

    Some of the more widely discussed instances of cancellations are David Shor and ContraPoints. But the thing that concerns me more is the all the non-famous people who now are essentially afraid to ask questions for fear they’ll say the wrong thing. Ignorance by many on the left has become almost synonymous with prejudice…

  452. The unfortunate side effect is that it’s not possible anymore to talk about actual freedom of speech concerns because as soon as most left wingers hear “freedom of speech”, they translate it to meaning, “let me say my racist thing.”

    The second part of this is correct, the first part is nonsense. You can talk about it all you want. But no one has to agree with you, and civility arguments are just glossed over arguments that power should stay with the powerful and other voices should not be heard. David Shor continues to have the right to say whatever he wants. But he never had a right to his job, and jobs have always and forever been contingent on the whims of the boss. Natalie Wynn can keep doing her thing. She wasn’t forced to quit, and she’s not entitled to political allies or kid gloves from them. Literally ever visible leftist deals with this kind of bullshit and pretty much always has. But there’s no moral lesson in either of those, being visibly political has had these exact costs for forever in America.

    But the thing that concerns me more is the all the non-famous people who now are essentially afraid to ask questions for fear they’ll say the wrong thing.

    Are you trolling here? Political speech has always had consequences. The only thing that has changed is that the previously powerless are able to flex. Hell, Bennet lost his job because he ran an opinion piece that called for violent state suppression of peaceful political speech and it spawned as many calls of “cancel culture is suppressing speech” as it did “that’s a literal threat to the 1st amendment.”

  453. @grocer

    Your description of the situations of Shor and Wynn are accurate but I think you’re being a little obtuse here. The 1st amendment protects speech, which wasn’t taken away. No one here was literally muzzled… put in prison, had their tongues cut out. Do you think anyone’s making that argument?

    The concern here is more about the values of the left. One value used to be the idea that the free discussion of ideas makes us all better: it holds us accountable to marginalized perspectives and exposes the fraudulence of hateful ideas by debunking them on a big stage.

    That value seems to be fading and being replaced by extreme cyberbullying rationalized by wild distortions of any perspective that doesn’t perfectly conform to today’s version of the leftist ideal. Not only does this approach IMO leave leftists unaccountable… they don’t have to discuss anything with people who disagree with them because they’ve all been dehumanized… but it also bombs any ideological bridge one might cross into the left. Curiosity is strictly unacceptable because you’re an immoral monster if you’re not already perfectly informed.

  454. because as soon as most left wingers hear “freedom of speech”, they translate it to meaning, “let me say my racist thing.”

    This is quite the assumption. Most left-wingers I know associate freedom of speech with the right to voice opinions without fear of prosecution by the government. It is conservatives — those of the political party that gives a >90% approval rating to Donald J. Trump, a figure that Hubert is more than happy to spin into something that fits his narrative about what right-wingers actually believe — that are prone to thinking that “freedom of speech” means the right to say hateful things in one’s place of work. I have explained what the First Amendment guarantees so many times, and with the simplest language I can muster, because of the pisspoor understanding I encounter in so, so many people, mostly people I would consider on the right.

    I would love for you to be a fly on the wall in the office of the large construction company that my wife works for. You would not believe the shit that comes out of these people’s mouths about lazy blacks, demonic lib’ruls and the Gestapo politicians in the Oregon state capital, because “I’m entitled to my opinion,” which is true in the eyes of the state’s prosecutors, but nowhere else.

    And for the record, I, like the man she accosted, think Amy Cooper should be left alone. She was not entitled to her job after she was exposed as a white person who weaponizes the police to intimidate with malintent, but she also should not receive death threats and other harassment due to a shitty, half-baked thing she did to that man.

  455. I think you’re being a little obtuse here.

    translated in to plain english: You are a total nutcase, completely deranged, delusional, paranoid. Your thought process is all fucked up. Your information train is jammed, man!

  456. those of the political party that gives a >90% approval rating to Donald J. Trump, a figure that Hubert is more than happy to spin into something that fits his narrative about what right-wingers actually believe

    I’m not trying to spin anything.

    I have a simple belief: it you say you approve of a president, it doesn’t mean you approve of everything he does.

    Do you disagree?

  457. @bob

    The main concern is that people acknowledge the state of affairs in society and act to change them. Your denial of the state of affairs frustrates the creation of equal opportunity.

    The relaying of your personal disposition misses the point, the reason it’s called systemic racism is that it doesn’t turn on one individual’s actions or beliefs but the beliefs, actions, and inactions of a large number of people. So sure, let’s put you to one side and grant that you’re not racist in any context or situation. You can still acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that enough people through overt action or unintentional inaction have created significant obstacles for minorities that don’t exist for white people, over and above the disappearance of the middle class.

    My point in bringing up white guilt, which seems to only have caused a massive digression (my own fault), is that if you did feel at all guilty about being white or for your race then you would begin to understand what minorities experience everyday. If anything your professed lack of guilt serves to highlight the difference in experience between white people and minorities, who don’t share that luxury.

  458. And for the record, I, like the man she accosted, think Amy Cooper should be left alone.

    i really liked how christian cooper handled the whole situation…not easy stuff to deal with, from the initial contact until now…

  459. if you did feel at all guilty about being white or for your race then you would begin to understand what minorities experience everyday. If anything your professed lack of guilt serves to highlight the difference in experience between white people and minorities, who don’t share that luxury.

    i’m not sure i understand – are you saying that minorities inherently experience feelings of guilt, or, that all white folks should feel some sense of guilt for systematic racism…

  460. tribalism and reductionist identitarianism

    you used this phrase a couple of times in your posts E, not sure exactly what “reductionist identitarianism” means, but, i like how it sounds…time to google…

  461. @latke,

    You said freedom lf speech was impossible to even talk about, and yet here we are..

    That value seems to be fading and being replaced by extreme cyberbullying rationalized by wild distortions of any perspective that doesn’t perfectly conform to today’s version of the leftist ideal.

    You’re going to have to provide examples, because nothing seems to actually comform to this. Sure, there are crazed outliers, always have been, but it’s disingenuous to conflate those outliers with some nebulous leftist program. (And all the outliers fight tooth and nail with each other anyway).

    This speech doesn’t deserve safe spaces, and it certainly doesn’t grant safe spaces to the people it is directed at. Complaints about cancel culture boil down to attempts to privledge some speech above others. This isn’t the Committee of Public Safety and the only discourse it endangers is that of unthinking privilege.

  462. It’s not really true that the good jobs were sent overseas. Those “good” jobs that are now gone from the US mostly don’t exist anywhere anymore. Technical change has eliminated them, not moved them. Other countries have the same hollowing out of middle class jobs that we do. When I lived in the Poughkeepsie area at the start of my there was a typewriter plant there and the company that owned it said they were going to move it to Mexico. PCs were already a hot commodity and to me at least, typewriters were a dying industry. Nonetheless, all the local politicians were agitating to save the typewriter plant and wanted state subsidies for it. Now that same political mentality is saying we have to bring back all the lost jobs just as they were instead trying to find new types of jobs and employment to replace them. That’s impossible, but the thought still seems to get people elected.

  463. I love when I find a “Libertarian” who complains about cancel culture.

    It’s like bro, the markets have decided that racist shit is not profitable, so don’t get mad at the cancelers, be mad at the invisible hand

  464. It’s not really true that the good jobs were sent overseas. Those “good” jobs that are now gone from the US mostly don’t exist anywhere anymore. Technical change has eliminated them, not moved them.

    Yep. Same thing for local resource extraction. Workers mostly weren’t replaced with foreigners, they were replaced by machines.

  465. @Owen,

    Fallout from political speech has been far worse in the past. Social media didn’t weaponize that fallout, it democratized and decentralized it.

    You still have the right to say whatever you want, and now you have an ability to be heard you never had before. It is fucked up to complain that people listened and paid attention. It is fucked up to think there should be no consequences to speech.

  466. To take this back to basketball, why don’t you all line up to attack my crazy. The subject of this thread is “What would you do as the team’s GM” so I’ll take a crack at something insane…

    Here’s the lineup I would try to put on the court….

    Mitch Robinson | Tyson Chandler or Amare Stoudemire | {27th Pick}
    Julius Randle | Kenny Wooten | Taj Gibson or
    Carmelo Anthony | Ignas Brazdekis | Kevin Knox
    RJ Barrett | Damyean Dotson | Jamal Crawford, Nate Robinson or Iman Shumpert
    {Lottery Pick} | Dennis Smith Jr. | Frank Ntilikina

    Go ahead. Tell me I’m insane. At least it’s crazy hoops talk!

  467. @grocer

    It’s admittedly hard to judge exactly how substantial a problem it is. In addition to the ContraPoints video I linked earlier, Matt Taibbi’s article crystalized some of my thoughts on the subject while providing several more examples: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself

    Really though this is a natural progression of polarization. Polarization and media (social and traditional) selecting the most outraging stuff is a vicious circle where the extreme representation of the other tribe causes your tribe to react more extremely, making your tribe produce more clicky hot takes, which triggers the other tribe, rinse and repeat. This process of dehumanization and demonization causes us to become more and more suspicious of and antagonistic towards any differing opinion. That, at least for me, is “cancel culture”. We anticipate malevolent intent whenever someone tries to initiate a debate, and we react accordingly.

  468. hell yes on bringing back the rooster…we got to get rid of julius first, but, even at an added cost (like an extra 3 to 4 million maybe) – still a better fit and deal…

    this is something kind of basketball related: tried watching The Basketball Tournament today on espn…didn’t really work for me…the addition of curtains to block out the stands was interesting though…

    oh yeah, since you been away for a bit Go NY Go, just to let you know – we don’t really engage much, basketball or otherwise, past about 8pm eastern…from then until the next morning it’s basically the semi-coherent drunk/stoned ramblings of me, bob and z-man…

    yeah, sorry, that’s what you’re stuck with…

  469. I love when I find a “Libertarian” who complains about cancel culture.

    It’s like bro, the markets have decided that racist shit is not profitable, so don’t get mad at the cancelers, be mad at the invisible hand

    You don’t even need to be a libertarian to deserve this scorn. You can just be anyone who fellates the free market, like the entire GOP. The libertarians are just especially egregious for the hypocrisy since Hayek and Rand are the man-gods yielded by Koch-, Olin- and Mercer-moneyed apotheosis.

    You still have the right to say whatever you want, and now you have an ability to be heard you never had before. It is fucked up to complain that people listened and paid attention. It is fucked up to think there should be no consequences to speech.

    Aaaaaaand end thread.

    I’m not trying to spin anything.

    I have a simple belief: it you say you approve of a president, it doesn’t mean you approve of everything he does.

    Do you disagree?

    I’m not going to argue with your sophistry. I’ll just give you more data from a reputable source, and you can keep peddling that line if you think it holds up.

    A full 31% of voters said that Donald Trump was a good role model. 25% of them called him even-tempered. 31% said he brings the country (hahah, I’m dying here) closer together! And 36% of them called him honest. Read that again, bud! Read it again! THIRTY-SIX PERCENT CALLED TRUMP HONEST. You think they were Democrats or something?

    Hubert: “Okay, but prove they were Republicans.'”

  470. “Fallout from political speech has been far worse in the past. Social media didn’t weaponize that fallout, it democratized and decentralized it.

    You still have the right to say whatever you want, and now you have an ability to be heard you never had before. It is fucked up to complain that people listened and paid attention. It is fucked up to think there should be no consequences to speech.”

    Should the NYTimes have fired (or forced to resign) its editorial board head because his woke/fragile minions had a hissy fit he published an editorial from a sitting US Senator?

  471. Move the goal posts much?

    My assertion was simple: Trump’s 91% approval rating among Republicans does not mean that 91% of Republicans approve of the things **you** think define Trump, e.g. white supremicism.

    Your pew research supports my thesis. Thank you.

  472. geo: are you on crack…
    chandler and stat are done…if possible we need to trade julius (he’s a backup 4 or 5)…melo – oh hell no…nate and shump – done…DSJ needs to goooooooooooo…

    No, but I did nudge the conversation back to hoops Yes, I decided to go light a fire :)
    Here’s what I really would do…

    Randle is a 3/4 but more inside than out. I really want to get Wooten and Iggy into the rotation. And then there’s Knox. We need outside shooting so I would look for a forward like Bertans, Galanari, or Marcus Morris.

    We need a depth at center and I would want it to be a veteran rim protector. There are a few of them out there. Add 2nd F/C as a deep backup up front. This could be the 27th pick.

    The back court is a frigging mess. RJ and Dotson are the players I like. The lottery pick is where I hope to find the starting PG. Frank and DSJr just clog up the works on my roster construction and I would seek to trade one or both of them for a 2nd. The only FA SG that excites me is Joe Harris so I think the reality is a lot of retreads here. We also need a prolific scorer but I don’t know where that comes from.

    How about Jamal going to the Nets? Also Michael Beasley.

    Also, I’ll argue any time of the day these days :)

  473. would you look to add more of these veteran 1 + 1 option deals, or, invest longer term, 3 plus years…

    has julius ever played the 3?

    who of the guys from last year would you consider bringing back (say bobby portis, say bobby portis, say bobby portis)…

  474. @latke,

    I don’t find Taibbi particularly useful or trustworthy, but from that article Fang’s tweet was described as part of a pattern of behavior on his part, and his defense was that he’s criticized the left and the right? It’s not a partisan issue, he simply refused to listen to what people were telling him. Now he has to listen and pay attention to keep his job. I don’t find that out of bounds at all, that sounds like a normally functioning HR dept.

    Bennet is ridiculous. I guess this is a response to Bob as well – I accidentally read his short post on it (life is better ignoring the Bobs. No one who engages in that much magical thinking and gets their talking points from 14 Words With Tucker Carlson is worth engaging with).
    Bennet solicits an op-ed on the protests from a known bomb throwing reactionary. Bennet green lights publishing the piece without having read it. It turns out that the piece advocates using force by the federal government to shutdown peaceful political speech. Yes, trolling their readership is what the Times opinion page does, but then Bennet admits to not having read it pre-publication! Bennet, who is in charge of the Times op-ed section, admits publicly, that he failed to do his job. I know that a lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around the idea that you should take responsibility for your own shit, but come on.

    I’m sure there are plenty of overreacters hanging about, tweeting shit. But I’m not seeing much overreaction in official responses. Shor fucked up his job publicly. Ditto Bennet. Fang kept his job. Wynn quit on her own. Cooper tried to swat someone, that’s a federal crime.

    ???

  475. geo: oh yeah, since you been away for a bit Go NY Go, just to let you know – we don’t really engage much, basketball or otherwise, past about 8pm eastern…from then until the next morning it’s basically the semi-coherent drunk/stoned ramblings of me, bob and z-man…

    yeah, sorry, that’s what you’re stuck with…

    you slanderous mfer

  476. geo: who of the guys from last year would you consider bringing back (say bobby portis, say bobby portis, say bobby portis)…

    Sorry, geo, I wouldn’t bring back Portis for 1/3 of his salary. And for the record, I’m sober right now.

  477. “It’s not really true that the good jobs were sent overseas. Those “good” jobs that are now gone from the US mostly don’t exist anywhere anymore.”

    Yeah…. nobody makes steel or aluminum or manufactures textiles or electronics anymore……

  478. awwwww man, ya’ll make me feel like a very, very lucky person…I appreciate you all more than you could ever know…

  479. “It turns out that the piece advocates using force by the federal government to shutdown peaceful political speech.”

    That is not what the Senator advocated, You are FOS. Completely and utterly.

    Here is what Sen Cotton actually wrote:

    “But the rioting has nothing to do with George Floyd, whose bereaved relatives have condemned violence. On the contrary, nihilist criminals are simply out for loot and the thrill of destruction, with cadres of left-wing radicals like antifa infiltrating protest marches to exploit Floyd’s death for their own anarchic purposes.

    These rioters, if not subdued, not only will destroy the livelihoods of law-abiding citizens but will also take more innocent lives. Many poor communities that still bear scars from past upheavals will be set back still further.

    One thing above all else will restore order to our streets: an overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers. But local law enforcement in some cities desperately needs backup, while delusional politicians in other cities refuse to do what’s necessary to uphold the rule of law…

    Note he was speaking of deterring RIOTING AND LAWBREAKERS and not “peaceful political speech”. Rioting and lawbreaking are not “peaceful political speech even by today’s Alice in Wonderland standards.

  480. Yeah…. nobody makes steel or aluminum or manufactures textiles or electronics anymore……

    I work for an aluminum fabricator bob. Advanced machinery and robots have eliminated the need for any kind of low skill labor at most manufacturing plants the world over. Even the skilled craftsmen are getting killed. I had to set up and program a robotic welding cell last year that eliminated a $30-35/hr job from the payroll. It fucking sucks and the same thing is happening everywhere.

    The only jobs available to people without degrees or expensive certifications are assembly and machine operator positions. And those pay jack anywhere on the planet (around $10/hr at my NJ employer). The only ‘good jobs’ are the relatively small team of specialists (programmers, engineers, machine techs) you need to keep all the automation humming. It’s bleak for average joes all over the world.

  481. Yeah…. nobody makes steel or aluminum or manufactures textiles or electronics anymore……

    Of course they do, but those industries employ many fewer employees than they used to. They are mostly quite automated. And if you consider textile sweatshops the sort of “good” jobs the US should retain, then you’re going to have to bring in very poorly paid immigrants to do them, because they are horrible jobs. And remember when Trump imposed large steel tariffs, a lot of American companies that used steel were hurt by them
    and had to shift production overseas or reduce domestic production.

  482. “Of course they do, but those industries employ many fewer employees than they used to. They are mostly quite automated. And if you consider textile sweatshops the sort of “good” jobs the US should retain, then you’re going to have to bring in very poorly paid immigrants to do them, because they are horrible jobs. ”

    So we should have an “economy” based on uber drivers and baristas and hamburger flippers? I don’t get this argument. Burlington used to employ lots of people in the south. Not every job in textiles are “sweat shops” and that should be regulated anyway.

    There isn’t a good reason iPhones can’t be manufactured in America. A few facts with sources linked below:

    iPhone7…The firm calculated that the iPhone 7 cost $219.80 in BOM costs and tacked an additional $5 as labor costs to come up with a total manufacturing cost of $224.80 for the phone. The phone retails for $649 in its starter version.

    The iPhone is primarily assembled in China by Taiwanese companies, such as Foxconn. The starting wage for an iPhone worker in China is $3.15 per hour. Much lower than the minimum wage in the U.S., which is $7.25 per hour. In 2018, it was quoted that employees at Foxconn make around $300 a month.

    So they are making $425 profit from each phone sold with $5 in labor costs. They could AT LEAST manufacture the phones for US consumption here and still make a fabulous profit.

    Well maybe Tim Cook would have to take a small pay cut from his $125,000,000 compensation last year…..

    I mean we somehow cajoled Toyota to build plants in Georgetown, KY years back…..

    https://www.investopedia.com/news/what-it-costs-apple-make-iphone-7-219-parts-5-labor-aapl-snssf/#:~:text=The%20firm%20calculated%20that%20the,%24649%20in%20its%20starter%20version.

    https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/the-cost-of-making-an-iphone.aspx#:~:text=Labor%20Costs,make%20around%20%24300%20a%20month.

  483. It would be fun to bring Gallo back although I think a decent vet point guard should be the priority.

    You can’t really start LaMelo/whoever else at the point right away. Maybe an older guy like Winston, if you take him in the 2nd round, could potentially start, but that’s still not optimal.

    So if we can’t get Vanvleet or someone else, it’s going to be Elfrid or Frank starting.

    I’m not a fan of bringing Melo back, but they’ll probably do it. Especially if they trade for CP3, which could very well happen.

    Here’s the starting lineup I’d want:

    pg: Frank
    sg: RJ
    sf: Joe Harris
    pf: Wood
    c: Mitch

    coach: Atkinson

    and this is what I think we’ll get:

    pg: CP3
    sg: RJ
    sf: Melo
    pf: Randle
    c: Taj/Mitch

    coach: Thibs

  484. ess-dog:
    It would be fun to bring Gallo back although I think a decent vet point guard should be the priority.

    You can’t really start LaMelo/whoever else at the point right away. Maybe an older guy like Winston, if you take him in the 2nd round, could potentially start, but that’s still not optimal.

    So if we can’t get Vanvleet or someone else, it’s going to be Elfrid or Frank starting.

    I’m not a fan of bringing Melo back, but they’ll probably do it. Especially if they trade for CP3, which could very well happen.

    Here’s the starting lineup I’d want:

    pg: Frank
    sg: RJ
    sf: Joe Harris
    pf: Wood
    c: Mitch

    coach: Atkinson

    and this is what I think we’ll get:

    pg: CP3
    sg: RJ
    sf: Melo
    pf: Randle
    c: Taj/Mitch

    coach: Thibs

    I think the lineup I want most is:

    PG: LaMelo/other draft PG
    SG: Frank
    SF: RJ
    PF: Knox or rookie
    C: Mitch

    I’m probably forgetting someone, but I’ve always been a fan of letting the young guys run and this lineup will help our draft position too.

    If mgmt wants to make a playoff run:

    PG: FVV/Elf
    SG: Bullock
    SF: RJ (b/c there’s no way he doesn’t start)
    PF: Randle/Gallo
    C: Wood or Bertans (if Gallo starts you can run Mitch as the starter but I doubt that happens)

  485. Bob, and I regret responding to you already, I am not surprised that was your takeaway considering your love of Tucker Carlson’s White Power Hour. The limited looting had already stopped and the “riots” we’re confined to even less time at the start. Of course the police violence was on going, but Cotton was calling for even more violent suppression of peaceful protests by the US military under a flimsy pretext. I can’t tell if you can’t hear the dog whistles or you don’t care. I suspect the later.

    In any case Bennet was forced out because he publicly failed to do his job. It’s not surprising that in your world view the bosses should receive every consideration while the workers should receive none.

  486. Yeah, this pearl-clutching over “cancel culture” is nonsense. As an undergrad and grad student I’ve TA’ed philosophy courses at several universities, from elite public college (UNC) to highly diverse urban commuter schools (Georgia State). In all of my time teaching various courses that have controversial content (e.g. bioethics, where we often talk about abortion and eugenics), I have not once felt like my ability to teach controversies was chilled by the threat of “cancellation”. In point of fact, the only university-level cancellations I’ve ever witnessed–where “cancellation” here means “bona fide violation of academic freedom”–is when a grad student who I had met at UGA was under investigation by the University System of Georgia for private comments he had made on Twitter. For the record, I think the tweets were silly, but to put him under university investigation for private tweets that were not, say, incitements to violence is a clear violation of his rights as an academic. In general, bona fide cancellations at universities–investigations or firings for protected speech, not deplatformings or disinvitations for unprotected speech–have occurred due to criticism of Israel (someone already mentioned Norman Finkelstein, but there is also Steven Salaita, among others).

    What conservatives in academia end up doing is conflating the very real left-wingedness of academia with their feeling that their speech is being chilled. This would be legit if there were biases in hiring or promotion, but there is very little evidence to support the idea that conservatives in academia are discriminated against. If anything, they’re accepted with open arms as people who widen the space of discourse, even if other academics find them politically distasteful. Loud people on social media demanding the most ridiculous kinds of comeuppance do not form a political movement that threatens the foundations of liberal discourse. It’s a myth conjured up by people with…

  487. I’m also really interested in what these three bring:

    Pinson
    Brazdeikis
    Wooten

    These are the players that we should be looking at, they have scoring flaws but have put up numbers.

    I’m probably least excited about Pinson’s potential as he’s struggled shooting in the NBA despite better G-League numbers. But he has such a unique game I don’t care.

    Honestly more excited (which is different than saying they’re better) for these guys than RJ, Knox, Frank. I live for end of the bench, garbage-time in a blowout loss, undrafted free agent player minutes.

  488. an ax to grind.

    The Harper’s Letter is dumb for perpetuating that myth, especially when many of the signatories (Hello, JK Rowling) are clearly animated by ressentiment derived from people on social media dunking on their bigoted views. 50% of it is wild-eyed anecdote and the other 50% of it is platitudes that no one actually disagrees with, e.g., “don’t fire someone for informed, good faith, respectful disagreement”. It’s all tilting at windmills. Again, there is a small contingent of people who want heads on pikes–someone tried to imply Noam Chomsky is a TERF because he and JK Rowling both signed on to the letter, which is laughable, since it’s just guilt by association–but again, that contingent is small, and is not really representative of any influential segment of the population.

    A good example of a failed right-wing cancellation is the Christian philosopher and legal theorist John Finnis (who supervised Neil Gorsuch’s DPhil). Students recently petitioned to get him removed from teaching duties at Oxford for his retrograde views regarding homosexuality, which he has compared to bestiality, among other things. He is known as a pleasant man and there was no record of discrimination against LGBTQ students. Removing him from teaching duties would have been a clear violation of academic freedom, were he removed from all teaching. What actually happens now is that he is scheduled him for non-compulsory seminars, which allows LGBTQ students to avoid having to deal with a class taught by a bigot without violating that bigot’s academic rights. In general this is how these controversies get resolved, by meeting in the middle to satisfy each party’s demands. Nothing seems out of order here by my lights.

    For some data to back up the anecdote:

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/8/3/17644180/political-correctness-free-speech-liberal-data-georgetown

  489. geo:
    would you look to add more of these veteran 1 + 1 option deals, or, invest longer term, 3 plus years…

    1+1 or not even the +1 for most. They are just better stopgaps.

    has julius ever played the 3?

    I really don’t think 3/4 even though that’s what I said. He’s a lot like Melo – a ball hog that wants to take his man one-on-one. What position is that? He’s a scoring forward that likes to play down low.

    who of the guys from last year would you consider bringing back (say bobby portis, say bobby portis, say bobby portis)…

    Portis is a dime a dozen. I would rather sign Marcus Morris (expensive) or Taj (cheap).
    Depending on how we draft, I really like Elfrid Payton. Given a choice between him, DSJr and Frank, I would take Payton 10 times out of 10.

  490. Early Bird:
    I’m also really interested in what these three bring:
    Pinson
    Brazdeikis
    Wooten
    These are the players that we should be looking at, they have scoring flaws but have put up numbers.
    I’m probably least excited about Pinson’s potential as he’s struggled shooting in the NBA despite better G-League numbers.But he has such a unique game I don’t care.
    Honestly more excited (which is different than saying they’re better) for these guys than RJ, Knox, Frank. I live for end of the bench, garbage-time in a blowout loss, undrafted free agent player minutes.

    I don’t know enough about Pinson to comment but I’m dying to see Wooten and Iggy and yes, they are ahead of Knox and Frank in my book but they’re both forwards but different types of forwards. If the Knicks don’t sign a backup rim defending center, Wooten should be in there whenever Mitch sits. The Knicks could have multiple 10 block games next season. Iggy is a scorer and a tenacious hustle player.

  491. So we should have an “economy” based on uber drivers and baristas and hamburger flippers? I

    I never said this at all. I said the good jobs that used to be don’t exist anymore. They didn’t move abroad. They are just gone. You are moving the goalposts by assuming I think Uber jobs to be good jobs. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? You still owe me an apology for the last time you did this. Now you owe me a second apology.

    I don’t consider those to be good jobs. Those are simply the kinds of new jobs our economy is creating now. That is a problem, but you don’t fight it by trying to bring non-existent jobs back from abroad.

  492. The age of good-paying industrial jobs is over. Trying to “bring the jobs back” is quixotic, because it is not economically feasible for corporations to open plants in the U.S. unless 1. you are in a state with low union membership (e.g. Kentucky) and 2. you are given significant tax incentives to open. Of course, conjoining these conditions means it is really not an economic benefit to the state, big-picture–the couple thousand jobs supplied were not bought efficiently, and while it’s good for those people, it’s overall a loss in the final, aggregate accounting. The same goes for the recent race to the bottom for the Amazon HQ. Politicians pursue these deals because people pay attention to “jobs” rather than overall economic health, and they want to be reelected or remembered fondly.

    The problem isn’t free trade–free trade per se isn’t even the cause of income inequality, it’s the lack of redistribution of the benefits of free trade that causes the increase in inequality–the problem is governments not taking the necessary steps to usher deindustrialized areas into the new economic reality. The problem is Hillary Clinton going into coal country, telling the families whose livelihood has been in coal for generations that their jobs are obsolete due to deindustrialization and climate change (which is true, but unhelpful!), and then offering them literally no other alternative, like investing in their communities via making them green energy hubs. We need more government action and coordination to solve the jobs and wage crisis that we currently have. That requires some old solutions–massive investment in new infrastructure, increasing union membership, especially in the service industries–and some new ones–like assisting economically dead zones (e.g. the Rust Belt) with the transition to an economy based in service, clean energy, medicine, and tech without selling land and the tax base out via corporate incentives. In short, the solution looks a lot like a Green New Deal.

  493. Brian, if you’re preoccupied with more important things in life, we’d all understand. Is it possible to come up with a way to share or automate the task of starting a new thread?

  494. Dink: . Advanced machinery and robots have eliminated the need for any kind of low skill labor at most manufacturing plants the world over

    Yes. This is absolutely the truth and it’s just the start of the next trend. This is what Andrew Wang was saying when he was a candidate. That’s where his universal basic income plan came from and why the following argument feels to me like attempts to cling onto something that is lost ….

    bobneptune: So we should have an “economy” based on uber drivers and baristas and hamburger flippers? I don’t get this argument. Burlington used to employ lots of people in the south. Not every job in textiles are “sweat shops” and that should be regulated anyway.

    Robotics is the next big challenge to labor – not cheap foreign labor. What’s cheaper than a human? A robot. And they work 24/7/365. Supporting factory labor now is akin to propping up blacksmiths when model-T’s were rolling out of the Ford factories. It’s throwing good money into the toilet. The greatest danger to the labor force is actually self-driving vehicles. The trucking and shipping industries are going to turn upside down. It’s a reality that is coming faster than we think. Nearly 10% of US labor is involved with that.

    Conservative thinking in as far as labor markets are concerned is short-sighted. For many, gig work is the new norm and with COVID-19 we have learned that big office buildings and call centers may no longer be needed. Remote work has become a proven reality. Brick-and-mortal retail is dying. The world is transforming at an ever hastening pace. We need to get ahead of the trend. It’s adapt or die.

  495. Move the goal posts much?

    The irony!

    My assertion was simple: Trump’s 91% approval rating among Republicans does not mean that 91% of Republicans approve of the things **you** think define Trump, e.g. white supremicism.

    Your pew research supports my thesis. Thank you.

    Peak sophistry, impotent word play, substituting slippery definitional arguments for any kind of plausible assumed reading of the word “approval,” as though I would suggest that “approves of” means “agrees with 100% of.” I quote Z-man, hitting the nail on the head:

    Must be nice not having a core, you can just bust everyone’s chops without taking a stand on anything!

    If you think that Pew article supports your thesis, you’re truly in a world of semantic bullshit all your own.

  496. ***So we should have an “economy” based on uber drivers and baristas and hamburger flippers? I don’t get this argument.***

    The argument isn’t an argument, it’s a statement of facts: automation is replacing remedial human labor. It’s like Springsteen once sang: “foreman says these jobs are going boys, and they ain’t coming back to your hometown.”

    And the solution is one you don’t like, so I won’t say it because I don’t want to trigger you. (But it starts with an S, and is rooted in the writings of Groucho’s distant cousin…)

  497. But it starts with an S, and is rooted in the writings of Groucho’s distant cousin…)

    Slapstick? That’s what it feels like, these days. The White House Press Secretary’s dad’s roofing company getting a PPP loan, designed for companies of 10 or fewer, for $1-2M, despite employing 140 people… and the obvious conflict of interest?

    Cue Bob (or Hubert, because he’s so fair and balanced!): Well, Trump probably didn’t know about that himself! Fake news!

  498. My 20-year old niece tested positive for COVID. She’ll probably be okay. My 70-year old parents with respiratory conditions who live downstairs from my brother’s family… well, that all seems pretty dodgy right now. My dad just had surgery for esophageal cancer and has recently lost 100 pounds and is very frail. My mom has COPD. They stay isolated but my 6-year old niece who lives with my brother’s family upstairs occasionally comes down for visits, so if she’s carrying the thing they will probably all have it.

    They’re getting tested today. Broward County is running out of ICU beds so they’re probably goners if they get positive tests. Not like the ICU beds will help much.

    Ron DeSantis says everything’s chill down there though, so maybe this will work out okay.

  499. In short, the solution looks a lot like a Green New Deal.

    i like your writing a lot silky, you explain things very clearly…scary stuff for the future in your words as well as some of our other posters…definitely has the sound of truth to it though…

    scary in that i don’t know whether as a nation we are adapting to the changes as well as we should…i’m all for better roads, free education/training and mandated public service…i have little to no clue though as to how a “new deal” could be implemented, or exactly what it should include – i guess that’s the part i find most frightening…

    i’ve worked as “middle management” (it’s just a part of the military structure) and also in manufacturing and logistics…yeah, i can see the automation coming…

    robbie the robot looked pretty cool back in the 50’s, now, not so much…

  500. JK47,

    I’m sorry to hear that, but even under the worst case scenario that they are positive, survival rates for the “at risk” groups are improving because we have better treatments and have learned to position people with breathing issues better instead of using incubators etc…

  501. You’re making great points, Jowles. They’re just not against anything I’ve said. Carry on, I guess.

  502. Socialism is such a misunderstood term. Our country is already rife with beloved aspects of socialism and yet getting labeled a socialist is akin to getting labeled a fascist in the minds of many Americans. The quote “Keep your Government hands off of my Medicare” pretty much sums it up.

    Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Disability, Food Stamps, Public Education (especially post-secondary) are all socialist programs. All of them involve a redistribution of wealth to some degree. Yet the same conservatives who benefit from these programs decry socialism as anti-American.

  503. I thought we peaked last year, but this is the worst election of my lifetime.

    We have a choice between an egomaniac, narcissistic, divisive, liar that views women as sex objects and an early stage senility patient with a mentally ill far left/marxist constituency dominating his party all with the full support of a corrupt and intrinsically evil mainstream media.

    That’s just peachy.

  504. sorry to hear about the family jk…i know it must be frustrating to be so far away and not be able to really do anything about the situation…

    what a heartache it must be for so many grandparents…the thing they probably love most in the world – their grandchildren, are now a potential danger to them…

  505. Hubert’s point is so incredibly vapid and self-serving that I can hardly believe he is so adamant in defending it. Clearly there are many Americans who believe that Trump can do no wrong. Then there’s a bunch who disagree with some of his statements, methods or positions but think he’s overall a great president. That was true for Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and every morally bankrupt head of state that ever existed.

    But we’re not Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Fascist Italy or those other countries. The things that his ardent supporters (again, 91% of Republicans ENTHUSIASTICALLY support his re-election) either look the other way at or actually embrace are completely contrary to who we are supposed to be as a country….especially in the post-civil rights era. There is absolutely no question that he panders to the cause of White Supremacy….how can it be argued otherwise, considering his record of public comments both before and during his presidency? That in and of itself is unforgivable no matter what your position is on taxes or abortion.

  506. LOL at the “Marxists” dominating the Democratic Party. I look forward to all the Green New Deals, universal health cares and gun controls

    Marxist Biden gonna make all my dreams come true! And here all this time I thought he was a DLC Third Way milquetoast.

  507. with a mentally ill far left/marxist constituency dominating his party, all with the full support of a corrupt and intrinsically evil mainstream media.

    More outlandish bullshit from an utterly disgusting excuse for a human being. This site was better when you temporarily slithered back under the rock from which you came. But you just couldn’t stay away, could you?

  508. And thank you, Z-man, for eloquently saying what shouldn’t have to be explained re: Trump supporters.

  509. There is absolutely no question that he panders to the cause of White Supremacy….how can it be argued otherwise, considering his record of public comments both before and during his presidency?

    When you’re a sophist, you can point to him not actually saying white power, but simply retweeting a video of his supporters saying it. “RTs not endorsements,” and all that.

  510. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Must be nice not having a core, you can just bust everyone’s chops without taking a stand on anything!

    It’s adorable that you two think not adhering to one of two broken parties equates to not having a core.

  511. Z-man: Hubert’s point is so incredibly vapid and self-serving that I can hardly believe he is so adamant in defending it.

    What point, specifically?

    Please, between you and Jowles, could one of you tell me the thing you’re arguing against? Because it looks to me like you’re gang banging a straw man.

  512. The issue with “cancel culture:” now has more to do with destroying the careers of people that may have had ignorant views in the past but have since learned and grown and are not the same people.

    People’s EXPERIENCES dictate their views on race, sex, politics etc.. Sometimes people are wrong but eventually learn.

    I’m not sure how much truth this group can handle, but I’ll give you mine.

    I grew up in a 100% white neighborhood in Queens where 100% of the muggings, robberies, assaults and other crimes were committed by blacks. So what do you think I did when I was a kid and saw a black kid eyeing my brand new bicycle I worked my ass off to buy that summer? I rode as fast as I could and put it in the garage before he could rob me not knowing whether he was going to rob me or not, I played the percentages. Turns out he was following as fast as he could and would have.

    When I was 13-14, I had my first exposure to black classmates. When I had my first sex education class I was as naive as a teenager can possibly be. Two of my black classmates were already fathers, others seemed to know more than the teacher, and all the rest were wildly disruptive and joking.

    My views at that time were a million miles different than they are now.

    Eventually I went to work in the white collar world, met educated black men and women, dated a black woman for a year while in my 20s and met many of her educated friends.

    All my views changed . But lets say an ignorant 15 year old me said some stupid shit years ago on social media. Should it destroy everything I am now after all I have experienced and learned since then? I say NO. That’s the problem. We grow as a society and individuals over the centuries, decades, and years. You shouldn’t judge people by the ignorance of their past. You should judge them by what they are now. If they are long dead, you should give them a bit of a pass for their flaws and ignorance if they were very common at the time.

  513. More typical Hubert…when all else fails, go to the straw man defense. Must be lonely living in a world where no one is smart enough to understand you.

  514. Deeefense: I grew up in a 100% white neighborhood in Queens where 100% of the muggings, robberies, assaults and other crimes were committed by blacks.

    Let me guess…Howard Beach?

  515. It’s adorable that you two think not adhering to one of two broken parties equates to not having a core.

    Bud, I was an unaffiliated voter from 2004 through 2017, and I registered Dem because I recognized the asymmetry between the two parties’ polarization, and that the GOP had fully embraced white nationalism, authoritarianism and extreme deregulation. Acting like I’m some kind tribal warrior for not equating the two parties as “broken” is, uh, a little silly.

    What point, specifically?

    Did you finish Z-man’s post? Your argument is that “approval” does not necessarily extend to “all” policies, which, who the fuck is arguing that? The point is that “approving” of Trump’s job performance is being willfully ignorant of all of the horrible, batshit-insane things he has done.

    And this is all in service of your earlier baseless speculation — totally incredible, implausible to hilarity — that since the GOP abandoned the Romney platform after his loss in 2012, there’s no evidence that Trumpism will be the party platform in 2024, which, again, hilariously misguided.

    I pointed to the cult of personality that Trump has created — Republicans now identify Trump support as a core tenet of being an Republican in 2020 — and we see the borderline-treasonous intransigence that the GOP has wrought, and you think that his influence is going to just disappear? Because of the milquetoast 2012 Romney campaign?

    That, my friend, is what I find so funny about this whole conversation. Your agnosticism is completely meritless on these grounds.

  516. I believe the biggest problem in this country is the 2 party system. I mentioned it yet yesterday, most Republicans don’t give a crap about what Trump tweets, says, whose pussy he grabs and how racist he is, all they care about is not having a Democrat as President. At first I couldn’t for the life of me understand why so many Republicans support Trump even now and the more I talk to Republicans I know, many of them I consider very smart, the more I realize they really don’t listen/read anything Trump says and when told of the stuff he says and does they honestly don’t care, their response is always I will never vote for a Democrat.

  517. And this is all in service of your earlier baseless speculation — totally incredible, implausible to hilarity — that since the GOP abandoned the Romney platform after his loss in 2012, there’s no evidence that Trumpism will be the party platform in 2024, which, again, hilariously misguided.

    I pointed to the cult of personality that Trump has created — Republicans now identify Trump support as a core tenet of being an Republican in 2020 — and we see the borderline-treasonous intransigence that the GOP has wrought, and you think that his influence is going to just disappear? Because of the milquetoast 2012 Romney campaign?

    That, my friend, is what I find so funny about this whole conversation. Your agnosticism is completely meritless on these grounds.

    Christ Almighty, thank you.

    I never said it would disappear. I was having a conversation with JK47 about what the Republican party will need to do in order to replenish their ranks in the future. I said that in order for the Republican party to replenish it’s base down the road with young people today, it will need to move away from the Trump agenda.

    So, if Trump gets trounced in 2020, and by 2022 the Dems gain control of the House and Senate, I do not believe that the Republicans will run out the same platform in 2024.

    Or even if Trump wins reelection… If by 2028 they’re getting trounced, then they will change their platform.

    That is the wildly controversial belief you and Z-Man have been railing against for almost a day now. Good job, fellas. At least it brought you two a little closer together.

  518. Let me guess…Howard Beach?

    No.

    Back when I was kid. many sections of Queens were 100% white. They were filled with 1st and 2nd generation German, Irish, Italian, Polish, and other European immigrants in lower middle class neighborhoods. I was in a primarily Polish parish even though I’m not Polish at all. Slowly, those people moved to Long Island or Westchester as they moved up the economic ladder. The block I grew up on (my 85 year old mother still lives in the same house) is around 90% Asian now with a few Latin Americans and Europeans still around.

    Where I am now in Queens is a true melting pot of everything, but the concentration of Indians and Pakistani is probably higher here than anywhere else in NYC.

  519. Because it looks to me like you’re gang banging a straw man.

    it’s gonna take me a while to stop laughing…

    i don’t how or when, but, one day – i’m using that…

  520. I’m not going to read through this entire thread, but it’s obvious what Trump did.

    He went after the blue collar and union workers in some key swing state that typically vote for democrats and brought a lot of them into the republican party. However, his anti free trade and anti open border policies conflict with the establishment republican party because establishment republicans want business to be able to take advantage of cheap labor overseas and at home.

    He also campaigned on withdrawing troops from foreign countries, getting out of NATO, no more regime changes, no more wars trying to impose our values on other countries etc.. and better relations with Russia. That was popular with people on the left and right but wildly unpopular with war mongering neocons that never saw a country they didn’t want to invade and are stupid enough to think Russia is still the Soviet Union.

    That’s why 50% of the republican establishment hates his guts over and above his personality disorders.

    He’s not a republican.

    He’s some kind of hybrid drawing some support from all over the place on issues the major parties are not in touch with the people about.

  521. I believe the biggest problem in this country is the 2 party system. I mentioned it yet yesterday, most Republicans don’t give a crap about what Trump tweets, says, whose pussy he grabs and how racist he is, all they care about is not having a Democrat as President.

    Strongly suggest the book “It’s Even Worse than It Looks.” I can’t link it here because my first two comments didn’t post, probably because I copied URLs, but either the 2012 or 2016 version will work (the 2016 has just an updated foreword). It lays out the polarization of the GOP toward intransigence — even before Merrick Garland, the Mueller Report, and the impeachment debacles.

    It also promotes RCV, the end of the filibuster, and campaign finance reform as possible solutions, short of constitutional amendments. But it’s a bleak outlook nonetheless.

  522. Deeefense: No.

    Where I am now in Queens is a true melting pot of everything, but the concentration of Indians and Pakistani is probably higher here than anywhere else in NYC.

    Based on your comments about Creedmor, I am guessing Glen Oaks.

  523. The issue with “cancel culture:” now has more to do with destroying the careers of people that may have had ignorant views in the past but have since learned and grown and are not the same people.

    Every situation that we’ve discussed here has been about current speech, not past speech, so they’d have to be learning in real time. But let’s say that I grant that it is true that some people have paid a price for things they have said in the (not particularly distant) past but no longer believe*. So fucking what? No one is entitled to a career, especially one at the top of whatever field they are in. Their publicly stated past views happen to derail that career? That’s not a societal problem, that just means they fucked up**.

    *I’d be interested in hearing examples of this. People have been complaining about this for ages but I can’t actually think of any real world examples. Who are the people who lost their jobs because of things they posted as a teen? Be specific, because otherwise this just sounds like another of those ‘everybody knows’ things.

    **”How could I have possibly known that mocking victims of rape/police brutality/ect was a morally wrong thing to do?” is not a compelling argument.

  524. “Bob, and I regret responding to you already,”

    Of course you do because unlike the agenda driven Greek Chorus I wasn’t going allow you to lie and totally misstate what Sen Cotton wrote. I had the temerity to post precisely what he said. And that sucks…. I understand.

    And those “peaceful protests” you spoke of engendered 27 state governors and the Mayor of DC to call out 62,000 National Guardsmen to backstop local authorities by June 3rd which just happened to be the date of Sen Cotton’s OP ed