SNY.com: Knicks interview Mike Woodson with head coaching decision expected by July 31

From Ian Begley:

Former Knicks coach Mike Woodson interviewed for the club’s head-coaching vacancy on Friday, sources said.

Friday was Woodson’s second interview with the club. Woodson and all other candidates had initial interviews with the Knicks last month or in the first week of July.

The Knicks’ second-round interviews are expected to conclude in the coming days. It is unclear if any candidates will be asked to interview a third time.

New York plans to make a decision its next head coach before July 31, when the NBA resumes its regular season in Orlando.

It’s interesting that they are planning on dragging this out for another 20 days.

Speaking of dragging things out for seemingly eternity, we’ve consciously uncoupled with one of our commenters, bobneptune.

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278 thoughts to “SNY.com: Knicks interview Mike Woodson with head coaching decision expected by July 31”

  1. If the NBA ever resumes, and the Knicks win a championship, that thread will likely get less comments than the Knicks Mailbag: what would some reporter do if he pretended he was GM thread (aka, the “Bob Neptune quotes Fox News thread”) (aka, the “Bob Neptune shatters the Ted Nelson daily word limit defending Trump’s amazing record against a Greek Chorus of meat eating, cow-tit suckling barbarians” thread)

  2. Should we boycott this thread and try to set a record?

    Fresh thread for a fresh start for the comments section.

  3. Interviewing Mike Woodson and Jason Kidd are probably just ploys to make us be happy to land on Tom Thibodeau. Thibs would be a fool to take the Knicks job before Philly fires Brett Brown, though. Go coach Ben Simmons and JoJo.

  4. Wouldn’t Thibs be a good pick for both the Nets job and the Rockets job if it opens up? Why does he want this gig so bad? It feels like the old Groucho Marx joke.

  5. Hiring…
    ..Woodson will probably mean Melo,CP3 and blast from the past farewell tour season.

    ..Thibs could mean Mitch/Frank fronted-D oriented
    Thermopylae battle team.

    ..Atkinson should mean 3s from any possible spot on the court.

    ..and Kidd that we will try to get the greek freak most probably through black magic, blackmail and other under the table ways..

  6. Well, I’ll say this:

    Leon Rose and William Wesley have to know that the coach they hire today has to be a coach who will push the development of their roster forward, and that the priority is tangible improvement from RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and the rest of the roster. Their whole game is star players. The stars they’ve represented and steered onto teams have to have told them their reasoning for not choosing an organization like the Knicks.

    They have to know how important the right coach is.

  7. Been following the site for a long time but only chimed in once. Anyway, Off topic but still keeping it basketball related did anyone get to watch the Marbury doc on netflix. I felt it was good watch. I was definitely a thinking back then he was going to do things when he was traded but was not unhappy to finally see him go. In the doc towards the middle part and through the end it focuses on his time in China. That dude is a legend there. I was telling my wife how much I hated him for sitting and refusing to play towards the end of his Knicks journey but after watching the doc i felt little less negative about him overall. Since there’s no basketball on yet, thought I’d mention it.

  8. Wouldn’t Thibs be a good pick for both the Nets job and the Rockets job if it opens up? Why does he want this gig so bad? It feels like the old Groucho Marx joke.

    Steve Popper’s Sunday notes column in Newsday says, “One coach who has interviewed said he believes the job is Thibodeau’s to lose — or, more accurately, Thibodeau’s if he wants it.” He goes on to suggest that Thibs might want to wait to see if jobs open up in Philly or Houston.

  9. Thibs could mean Mitch/Frank fronted-D oriented
    Thermopylae battle team.

    I’m wondering how Thib’s desire for long minutes fits with Mitch’s less than stellar stamina.

    Atkinson would be great and you’re probably right about Kidd who thinks outside the box in all the wrong ways. Woodson.. I think he’s an okay coach but there’s a reason the board still quotes his press conferences. He’s also the coach on the list who defers the most to the perceived player pecking order, and PPPO says the ball goes through Randle.

  10. “One coach who has interviewed said he believes the job is Thibodeau’s to lose — or, more accurately, Thibodeau’s if he wants it.” He goes on to suggest that Thibs might want to wait to see if jobs open up in Philly or Houston.

    Come on, Thibs, you can do better than the Knicks! Go get those other jobs!

    Thibs waiting to see what happens with other openings makes sense, but then the July 31st timeline doesn’t make any sense, as none of those jobs will be open by that point, sooo….huh?

  11. Every report suggests that Woodson is being considered for the top assistant job rather than another stint as head coach. Apparently, there was serious consideration to making him Fiz’s assistant before Pills decided the optics would be bad.

  12. Thibs waiting to see what happens with other openings makes sense, but then the July 31st timeline doesn’t make any sense, as none of those jobs will be open by that point, sooo….huh?

    Right now, the Knicks have the field to themselves — not just for the head coach, but for his staff. You make the hire before other teams can compete for these guys, and if that means Thibs opts to wait and you go with your second choice, so be it. It makes relative sense to me.

    It’s also entirely possible that Popper is just blindly speculating, and/or trying to generate a narrative around what’s been a done deal for months.

  13. Right now, the Knicks have the field to themselves — not just for the head coach, but for his staff. You make the hire before other teams can compete for these guys, and if that means Thibs opts to wait and you go with your second choice, so be it. It makes relative sense to me.

    It makes sense if it ends up not being Thibs, but if Thibs is the guy announced on July 31st, it’s quite strange, no?

  14. Thibs may or may not be a done deal yet but Dolan & Co. sure appear to be proceeding as if he is.

    We’ve seen this movie already. It’s replayed as frequently as The Shawshank Redemption on basic cable. Only the name of the love interest changes (LeBron… Kerr…Durant) but the final reel never does.

    Expect the inevitable last minute rejection to the shock and surprise of no one except James Dolan.

    The days immediately following will see a desperate scramble to save face via the hasty signing of whoever the biggest name remaining happens to be (Kidd would be my guess)

    And, of course, left in the wake will be any number of attractive, less-well-known options that could have been had with a modicum of due diligence and little to no attendant drama.

    I’m not much of a Thibs fan but so I’m not exactly heartbroken at the thought of losing out on him per se. But if things go according to script, the guy the Knicks wind up with figures to be someone I like even less.

  15. I just don’t think it matters much until there are viable NBA players on the roster, as long as you avoid mouthbreathers like Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd.

  16. I’m  not much of a Thibs fan but so I’m not exactly heartbroken at the thought of losing out on him per se. But if things go according to script, the guy the Knicks wind up with figures to be someone I like even less.

    the kidd talk got me nervous…cuz of what happened in brooklyn and then at the bucks have me thinking he’s just not a good coach or fit…

    so thibs is definitely looking better, I just don’t think we have a roster that fits with a try to win at all costs right now guy like thibs…

    I guess the July 31 date may be a way to pressure thibs in to making a choice?

  17. Houston? Going from D’Antoni to Thibs seems like schizophrenia.

    If Thibs could get Harden to play defense he would definitely be coach of the year material.

  18. I totally missed that Woodson was let go by the Clippers. So obviously he’d be willing to take any gig with the Knicks. Wow, I wonder why they let him go? That’s not a good sign.

  19. A team with Kawhi Leonard and Paul George ALSO needs a “defensive coordinator”?

    That sounds like the position Ed Harris gave to Radio, just to make him feel like he was a part of the varsity team.

  20. FWIW, I like that Rose is running a whole bunch of different head coaches through 2 rounds of interviews and his stated reason for doing so. Sounds like he wants to learn more about different coaching philosophies and takes on the roster and future, and then the second round is using what he learned to ask additional questions. Even if his mind was made up already, I think the process demonstrates that he wants to learn, and that being a superagent is not sufficient preparation for the job.

    I’m pretty resigned to Thibs being the eventual choice and I’m okay with that. Even if we shoot less 3’s than we should, having a defense-first mentality is fine with me.

  21. Brian Cronin:
    I totally missed that Woodson was let go by the Clippers. So obviously he’d be willing to take any gig with the Knicks. Wow, I wonder why they let him go? That’s not a good sign.

    I read the news articles. It’s not clear Woodson was let go, it may be he decided to leave.

  22. It’s hilarious that Woj got suspended. ESPN knows they can’t fire Woj, so they’re stuck in a box with how they deal with him.

  23. Woj will be back shortly.

    Exactly. It’s the most toothless suspension I’ve ever seen. It’s hilarious. I’m totally cool with it, but it’s still hilarious.

  24. I’ll be fine with Tom Thibodeau as the coach. Miller as an assistant is fine also. At least we’ll have 2 people in the organization that know something about basketball. Maybe we’ll have more pending how 1-2 of the new hires work out, but I already know Rose, Perry and Houston don’t know what they are doing and thankfully Mills/Fizdale are gone too. They were clueless, lost KP for garbage, drafted Knox, and brought in mostly bad misfits.

    If we had decent management I’d actually be fairly optimistic building with Robinson, Barrett, Ntilikina and our draft picks this year. I don’t want to be overly harsh on Knox because he’s so young, physically immature, and seems like a good kid that’s trying hard to get better. But competent management would have drafted Mikal Bridges.

    However, since present management took over they have already moved Trier (a mistake unless he has personal issues we are unaware of). Now there is talk that Dotson is out next. These are cheap players with upside and clear paths to becoming solid role players on a good team. Those are bad moves even if not a serious setback like KP.

    We’ll see what they do next. We obviously need shooting more than ever with Trier out and Dotson maybe next. These pinheads will probably trade up for a PG than can’t shoot.

  25. I just don’t think it matters much until there are viable NBA players on the roster, as long as you avoid mouthbreathers like Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd.

    That’s funny, noted basketball savant Jalen Rose said on ESPN that they would his top 2 candidates.

  26. Deeefense, do you think Ntilikina is undervalued by advanced stats? If so, how would you rate him, on a scale of, I don’t know, 0 to 140?

  27. summary of knicks developments over the past year or so, relative to expectations in rough order of importance — open to revision:

    1. high lottery picked that could have been zion or morant turned into rj, who had an underwhelming but far from hopeless rookie year (negative)

    2a mitch robinson continued to do insane mitch stuff but didn’t show much if any improvement from raw rookie year (modest negative)

    2b. didn’t trade away any future firsts for a big
    veteran contract (strong positive)

    3a. steve mills out, dolan pivots to becoming the kings of leon. (hard to say, but probably still a mild net positive. incontrovertibly great that mills is gone, but…)

    3b. record gives middle-of-lottery odds (mild negative)

    3c. knicks didn’t use 2019 space to acquire maximum possible future assets, but kept the out-year damage fairly low (moderate negative)

    4. knox showed only milquetoast sophomore improvement, doesn’t look good for him (mild
    negative)

    4a. trier gone with no return (modest negative)

    5a. frank showed improvement-lite, visible with lasik. nba rotation level play seems a bit less fanciful (mild positive; controversial)

    5b. got a draft asset for marcus morris (positive)

    6. fizdale out. thibs favored in coaching search. atkinson possible (yay). kidd possible (boo) mark jackson not rumored. (too close to call; not a fiz fan, not a thibs fan, coaching is overrated, especially on bad teams. except all the wonder boy haters is dummies)

    7. julius randle didn’t magically become paul millsap (mild negative)

    8. zero discernible improvement from dotson and dsj (whatever)

  28. Yeah, Dotson actually had a respectable three point percentage (0.361) and is isn’t horrible on defense, and since this is the Knicks, that means get rid of him.

    On the other hand, I really don’t see that Trier is a big loss. Yes he could score, but he didn’t play good team offense and his defense was a big negative. Actually Kadeem Allen got minutes ahead of him, which is damning.

  29. Agreed on all points. It’s a real holding-pattern kind of year. Not much to look forward to except a fairly clean slate. Unfortunately this game is adversarial, so while our youngins go from “among the worst-ever lottery rookie seasons” to “borderline 12th man in the CBA,” we have to watch Doncic and Zion perform like prime HOFers before they can legally drink, making our stasis rate all the worse.

  30. We’ve been needing to knock a draft or free agency out of the park. Grabbing Mitch is the closest we’ve come and he only plays 15 a night.

    RJ/Knox/Frank will go down as the worst lotto run ever. RJ, you better prove me wrong. Maybe Frank sticks in a rotation. Knox needs to do literally anything well.

    Yes, Frank is underrated by advanced numbers because if his defense. But how underrated? At times he looks otherworldly, but that’s not every game and his offense is still trash. I’d be interested in seeing what Thibs gets out of him, of course that means Frank’s knees blow out by game 60, so…

  31. RJ/Knox/Frank will go down as the worst lotto run ever.

    It’s definitely not a good run of picks, but worst ever is stretching it. Drafts just aren’t as good on average as we always want them to be. Frank is already a useful backup point guard when defense is needed more than offense. If he gets somewhat better where he’s a good back up point guard who’s good enough to start in spots, that would be a normal result for where he was drafted and better than a third of the picks at that spot (who never even get to be a role player). Take Eldrid Payton for example, he was drafted tenth and I think he fits that description. RJ is very hard to tell about. He was drafted higher than Frank and drafted at a position where you typically get an effective starter. I agree with you in having doubts, but there have certainly been worse picks at this position. Consider Okafor and Fultz, to name two recent ones. Knox was just flat out a bad pick. I hope he proves me wrong, but I see his ceiling as a three and D wing and consider it a challenge for him to reach that ceiling.

  32. Early bird, I suspect Thomas was signed because they have so many players who can’t go to Orlando. There are a lot of restrictions on who can be signed as a fill in for Orlando. They clearly need a full team so they can have in team scrimmages. There aren’t a lot of players out there who they could sign. He’s probably not a bad choice for that.

  33. Kevin Knox had a bad year this season, but literally everyone on the Knicks had a down year because the roster was put together terribly. All of Elfrid Payton, RJ Barrett, Julius Randle, and Mitchell Robinson would have had more value if they were on the court with more shooters. Instead, they were on the court with each other and nobody had space to operate. Kevin Knox went from playing a ton of minutes his rookie season to being stuck on the bench behind Julius Randle and Marcus Morris because Steve Mills, Scott Perry, and David Fizdale were all trying to win as many games as they could to avoid being fired.

    The plan was get Kevin Durant and then let him cover for their mediocrity, and there was no plan B. I agree that coaching is ultimately superfluous until you have talent, but getting the talent will always be important. The Knicks did a terrible job last summer and that’s why everybody had a down year. The one guy who was having a great year got traded for a 1st round pick, and that’s nice, but we threw away a year of development because the Knicks are idiots.

    The Knicks needed to find a way to get Smith Jr, Ntilikina, Barrett, Knox, and Robinson on the court together way more often than that line-up actually played together (if it ever did), and their failure to do that cost everybody their jobs. I do not care that they would have been the worst team in the league because all that means is they would be guaranteed to pick in the top 5 for the second year in a row. I really hope Perrin, Aller, Zarrin, and Perry know what the hell they are doing this fall because no superstar is coming here until we have a front office who knows how to build a complementary roster.

  34. I swear that guy must have the best drug connections in NY or brings the owners to parties or something

    lance is my go to for how unfuckingimaginably hard it is to have nba level talent. here is an atypically smart, hard working person who is 6′ 8″ 240. but he is hardly just a big body with a big brain. they guy is a career 38pct 3pt shooter and 80pct free throw shooter, better than 99pct of knick 2 guards. but he is not just a smart, lumbering shooter. he has a legit vertical leap and has mashed some serious iron, especially at duke. he was (i think) a 5 star vertical recruit. if lance was on the dating game he could easily be confused with, i dunno, al horford. yet he is so bad at nba basketball when someone signs him we have to marvel at his hypnotizing personality.

  35. Early Bird:

    Yes, Frank is underrated by advanced numbers because if his defense. But how underrated? At times he looks otherworldly, but that’s not every game and his offense is still trash. I’d be interested in seeing what Thibs gets out of him, of course that means Frank’s knees blow out by game 60, so…

    Sadly, Frank’s groin will probably blow out way before his knees.

  36. just saw a pic of william wesley – just from hearing talk about about him i thought dude was like 90 years old or something…he’s only mid 50’s…he shouldn’t be that out of touch at all…hopefully he’s more useful than steve stoute…

    oh yeah, i don’t think i like marc berman…am i missing something?

    i get he has to do it, but, sorry to see woj apologizing…that was some beautiful commentary though…was there any other words in his email or was it simply: fuck you…

    which to be honest, after sharing those words, nothing else really needs to be said…i’ve liked him as a nba reporter for years, i forgot who he worked for before espn…never really thought about him though as having much of a personality…

    i just saw the image of woj’s email…

    i see him now :)

  37. Smith and Knox just suck. Maybe you could make Knox into a passable bench stretch 4. Ntilikina has a role player ceiling. None of those guys are legit building blocks. Early returns on RJ are not promising but I’ll give him another year and see if he develops at all. You can at least see a path forward for him.

    I’d be focusing on shooters in this draft unless we hit on a high lotto pick. Can’t nobody shoot on this team.

  38. Frank and Knox are all too young to pass final judgment on. They should never have been in the NBA at their respective ages. Think of how many players would have been horror shows had they been drafted in the lottery that went on to have solid NBA careers. I can think of three former Knicks off the top of my head: Starks, Christie and Barnes.

    They were unquestionably bad picks, that will never change, but both have the physical attributes and work ethic to become good rotation players. At the right price, they should not be given up on just yet.

    DSjr is a different case. He has shown none of the IQ necessary to play the only position he can possibly play. If he could at least shoot from the perimeter, maybe he could be a decent backup somewhere, but there’s no way he becomes a plus player in the next 5-6 years, not with his body language.

  39. I also think that video that Jowles posted re: Budz and his defensive schemes demonstrates how important coaching can be when it comes to putting players in position to be successful. Fizdale was a disaster for Knox and Ntilikina, and Miller didn’t have a lot of time to work with them but I was seeing some improvement in both after he took over. This will be a critical year coming up for both players. They are playing for contracts and their coach will be judged on their development.

    Of course, some stupid blockbuster deal may make all of this moot.

  40. Is Strat still trying to pretend that’s not him? He’s reverted back to his normal writing style and everything.

  41. I also think that video that Jowles posted re: Budz and his defensive schemes demonstrates how important coaching can be when it comes to putting players in position to be successful.

    i don’t disagree that it can be important, but it’s
    also easy to learn too many lessons from well curated videos. for example, bud had both collins and schroder in his last year on atlanta. those guys are preternaturally weak defenders but both have actually looked somewhat better under different coaches. that could be due to confounding factors but the point is that good defensive coaches rarely work magic with shitty defenders like knox, cf thibs in minny.

  42. Lance Thomas will probably be a hall of fame coach or write a bestselling memoir a la Ball Four. Dude has to have something f magic about him to hang on this long with so little talent. I remember him being not that good at Duke and here he still is.

    Paul Millsap is one of the most underrated players of my lifetime. Much better player than Carmelo and won’t sniff the hall.

    Agree with above. We did the easy stuff this year and nothing dumb.

  43. i don’t disagree that it can be important, but it’s
    also easy to learn too many lessons from well curated videos.for example, bud had both collins and schroder in his last year on atlanta.those guys are preternaturally weak defenders but both have actually looked somewhat better under different coaches. that could be due to confounding factors but the point is that good defensive coaches rarely work magic with shitty defenders like knox, cf thibs in minny.

    Schroder might actually be a good example of a guy who improved his defense just by getting older, more mature and more experienced.

    Unlike Wiggins, Knox seems to have a great attitude (if a bit delusional), is still very young and will never be in the running for a max contract based on draft position. Whatever Knox turns out to be, he will never be a colossal overpay like Wiggins is. He might not improve at all next year, but at worst he will be jettisoned. And he made some plays on both ends in the last 20 games or so that show at least a glimmer of hope…chase-down blocks, rebounds in traffic, passes to Mitch.

  44. It was clear from the way that the Knicks players talked about him that Thomas will almost certainly be a coach. That scrub was beloved.

  45. people come to the site for different reasons, kind of like reub – bob came to fight…

    arguments are gonna happen about players, teams, coaches, whatever, and, that’s understandable…bob was hooked on some of the most divisive topics around – politics, race, class…he knew what he was doing…

    there’s a lot of folks whom have more than enough drama in their lives, or, simply prefer to restrict any additional negativity in to their world…it’s important to be mindful of the input you allow in to your head…

    hopefully, some of the folks whom had a serious distaste for what we had going on will feel more comfortable to engage once again…that would be a big win for us all…

    as mister spock so eloquently put it – fuck, has it been seven years yet???

    let’s get on with it…oh yeah, we’re still waiting for some real basketball…about 17 days and counting…

  46. After (most of) one year in the league, who from last draft class would you all pick up over RJ? A lot like Clarke on this board. I’m thinking I prolly would’ve taken Garland (solves need at PG, shooting is coming around, TS% is approaching 50%). Anyone else?

  47. wetbandit:
    I missed it because last thread was terrible, but was bobneptune banned? Why?

    “Speaking of dragging things out for seemingly eternity, we’ve consciously uncoupled with one of our commenters, bobneptune” (Brian Cronin)

    If you thought the last thread was terrible, maybe that’s one of the reasons why he got banned/suspended/asked to leave…

  48. I’ve never been a big fan of banning posters except in extreme cases. Bob is sort of in the gray area for me. I would not have banned him but I could see why it was done. I certainly won’t miss him, just like I didn’t miss strat during his hiatus.

  49. If that is true the Neptune is banned …https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AWFf7EAc4

    I’ve been binge watching Dark on Netflix…my new favorite show but I was beginning to see the similarities with this show and this site…with every time coming back and seeing the same damn arguments…like an endless time loop…

  50. I don’t know, it’s not my site. There are several other posters who are more abrasive and engage in vitriolic ad hominem attacks here so it can’t be due to his abrasiveness. People do engage him, so I don’t fault him for answering. He has a brand of political belief that is right of center and he is alone on that here. I certainly don’t agree with most of what he says or his way of responding , but I agree less with others’ methods of arguing more (“such sophistry!”), or their methods of name calling (“racist!”). I bowed out of last thread because I agreed with nobody, and it was miserable. But he wasn’t the cause. I dislike “canceling“ counter voices, and I feel that’s what this was.

  51. I haven’t been on here that long (maybe 4-5 years of viewing and less of commenting) but I definitely noticed that guy (outside of the hoops banter) immediately as enjoying stoking the flames and taking certain extreme positions to generate hostile discussions…I thought it was some Celtics troll who had such a miserable life they had nothing better to do than come on a Knick fan site and stir shit up with us miserable Knick fans…I am still not convinced that the dude was who he said he was but if he is I feel sorry for his family…good riddance..

  52. how long you been coming here wetbandit?

    i lurked a long time, but, didn’t really start engaging until the end of reub’s time…so, i never really seen some of the earlier crazies…

    i tend to skip through some of the more repetitive negative stuff – i seem to have missed some of reub’s offensive behavior…no need to re-hash or recall thank you very much…more than happy to take y’alls word for it…

    oh yeah, i can’t remember who it was, but, there was one guy who got banned,.,then came back and started saying all kinds of really weird vulgar shit…it was bizarre, and basically confirming to all why they didn’t need to be here…

  53. I thought it was some Celtics troll who had such a miserable life they had nothing better to do than come on a Knick fan site and stir shit up with us miserable Knick fans

    i’m a yanks fan, and for a long time felt more pity (up until 2004 that is) for the red sox than anything…

    if i was celts fan – i wouldn’t even think about the knicks…

    honestly, most valuable franchise or whatever – we’re the definition of irrelevancy in the world of basketball…

    we got msg, manhattan (where did that come from) and most importantly – clyde…after that…some of us got decent memories…

    huh, didn’t know manhattan = “place for gathering the (wood to make) bows”

    ooops, now i’m reading: “hilly island”…hmmm, that sounds doobieus…

  54. geo…I am a huge yankee/rangers/knicks/jets fan…ESPN just had Game 6 of the 2009 Series on…seems so long ago…

    I agree…the Knicks are irrelevant and show no signs of climbing out of the abyss…the Rangers on the other hand get to play a version of the playoffs soon…so I can look forward to some playoff hocket as well as seeing Judge take some hacks hopefully on July 23rd…

    final point…I was an assistant coach on my son’s little league team for several years…and the head coach was from Boston and he took every advantage to give me shit around any NY team in any sport…there is just some DNA thing where its unavoidable regardless of where the teams are in their life cycle of sports franchise lives… for those two fan bases to lock horns and want to take pleasure in the other’s misery..

  55. Oh bob definitely stoked flames left and right. It’s true, posters could’ve just ignored him, but he made it difficult by saying some truly outlandish stuff.

    Re: the coaching hire, I honestly don’t care much. This hire will most likely serve as an interim step between basement dweller and true contender anyway.

    The most important thing is a staff that makes the kids better, so it would be nice to keep Miller around for that – under Thibs or anyone else.

    Udoka seems well liked by players. Maybe go for him?

  56. I wouldn’t have banned bobneptune, and honestly there is flat out nothing going on in the world of basketball right now so the discussion isn’t going to be too lively if all we’re talking about is “will Mitch add a jump shot” and “is Killian Hayes the next Frank or what” or similar played out topics. I can see how others found the political talk annoying though, so fair enough I guess.

  57. I’m with JK and Z-man. I don’t think banning is cool, but he just made weeks of KB a “keep scrolling” experience.

  58. ‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,’

    Voltaire Ntiilikina

  59. Did you guys read Berman’s article where he interviewed Jalen Rose? Apparently he’s like WWW’s biggest fan. Saw this quote from Jalen mentioned on Twitter: “I believe they will be able to attract talent … When you walk into that room, other than James Dolan and Leon, four out of the six will be black, and it’s going to say something to free agents.’’

    Ummmm does Jalen not realize that last summer everyone besides Dolan was black including the head coach and that didn’t exactly help.

  60. or their methods of name calling (“racist!”)

    Jesus Christ you really are playing the fucking victim again

  61. Bob probably shouldn’t be banned but I also don’t really care to stick up for him because he has a tendency to make this place a lot less pleasant than it usually is, so whatever.

    Yeah, Dotson actually had a respectable three point percentage (0.361) and is isn’t horrible on defense, and since this is the Knicks, that means get rid of him.

    League average 3PT%, which obviously takes into account bigs etc., is .357. It’s almost certainly higher for wings like Dotson. So he’s an average shooter at best. He’s a fine but unremarkable defender. That’s…about it. He’s 26 years old.

    I simply do not care what they do with Dotson. Keep him if it’s super cheap, I guess, but this is one of the least consequential decisions the front office will make.

  62. I too wouldn’t have banned Bob, but you have to admit that if he comes down with a real, real bad case of COVID-19, it would be funny to listen to him try to spin Trump’s denialism, at least until they intubate him.

  63. I’m not on here enough to really know if I’m wrong on Bob but my feeling is he wasn’t a bad guy. Just annoying, and believed things I don’t.
    Jowles, I am not playing this game right now. I will say this, this kind of talk merits a ban more than anything I heard Bob say

  64. If I supported the Trump administration’s stated and pursued agenda, I’d be a bad person. I’ll leave it there.

    And no, wetbandit — neither do I have the patience to take you through how you and I are both racists despite neither one of us using the N-word.

  65. I reread Jowles’s post about Bobneptunes intubation, and while I don’t personally believe he should be banned, based on the standards placed when Bob was banned, he should be banned too- Full stop.

  66. I think the post was pretty clear that it wouldn’t be funny if he were intubated. But when a man from the Leopards Biting People’s Faces Party gets bit in the face by a leopard?

  67. I’ll take one page from the Bob Neptune playbook: “Obama said it first.”

  68. I’m honestly okay with discussing whether Mitch can add a jumpshot or not, lol.

    Or more generally, if he has the ability to slide over to pf.

    I think that would mostly hinge on whether he could close out and defend other pfs in space.

    If so, imagine playing him with a guy like Xavier Tillman or Vernon Carey. I know it’s not an ideal modern nba offense, but that might work better than trying to squeeze extra starter’s minutes from Knox, Portis, or Frank.

  69. That 10-second video of him draining Js was enough for me. Let him take as many threes as he wants.

  70. I don’t see Mitch ever adding a jumpshot. He also struggles handling line drive passes so he’s pretty far from being a 3pt threat even if he does eventually make it.

  71. Must be weird for Bob to lurk and see the Greek Chorus advocating for his unbanning.

    I would welcome him back. #freebobneptune

  72. I get it. How it be here: Awful post not on my side- banned. Awful post on my side – hey, get yourself some thick skin. I still don’t see what triggered the Bob ban

  73. wetbandit: I get it. How it be here: Awful post not on my side- banned. Awful post on my side – hey, get yourself some thick skin. I still don’t see what triggered the Bob ban

    Maybe your side just sucks…

  74. I think it was probably just sheer volume that got bob banned. It was a whole mountain of “own the libs.”

    A lot of it was also carried out in a baiting kind of way— “sorry to make you snowflakes cry but here’s a sweet ass study that proves how great hydroxychloraquine is” and all of that.

    Again, I don’t think that’s bannable, and I didn’t find bob to be a troll like reub. I think he sincerely believes the dumb shit he posts. But I do think it was the sheer volume of it all that was the issue.

  75. I’d like you to address the irony of a Trump sycophant-apologist catching a hard case of the COVIDs before I call my priest for confession.

    Speaking of priests, who here hasn’t yet watched Fleabag and what are you doing with your life if you haven’t?

  76. I only have time to rewatch The Sopranos apparently. And check in on Handmaid’s Tale episodes.

  77. I’ve been watching The Expanse, but I’m not a huge fan. Everyone I’ve talked to swears it gets better, but I really don’t think any of the characters or plots in season 1 are compelling.

    I’ve also gone back and started watching Mr. Robot which I feel like I should enjoy more than I actually do. I think the show drifts too much from playing off the narrator’s mental state which made season 1 more compelling. The second episode of the series where he begins questioning himself about whether or not the events of the first episode actually happened was brilliant and should happen more.

    Of course, I have already watched Fleabag, loved it, and expressed as much here before. I second the motion for everyone to go watch fleabag.

  78. I watch YouTube Sopranos highlights in the background while I work. It’s a thing I cannot admit to people IRL. Gandolfini is the greatest TV actor I’ve seen. I am consistently in awe of how many emotional states he is able to work through in a single scene without coming off like he’s reciting from a script. Just marvelous.

  79. i don’t know if too much of a good thing may have been too much, but, re-watching Boardwalk Empire and yeah, he probably should have played nucky thompson…

    steve buscemi is a fine actor and all, but, watching his skinny naked ass in a love scene is, ummmm, not so lovely…plus, the character was written for someone who was physically intimidating…great guy from what i’ve hear, but, not very intimidating…

    michael shannon is simply beyond brilliant as nelson van alden, but – would’ve been interesting to see him have a go at playing enoch…

    it’s funny, even after all these years – still had the same exact physical reaction to the end of season 2 – fuck this shit…

  80. reference bob – a few of us make up a very vocal minority…a whole lot of folks have slid by here since the season ended and let slip they weren’t so happen with what they saw…at the end of the day though – being a good guest is important…know your hosts…

    speaking of folks – roll call – hope you’re all doing well:

    – cdiggy – sadly not getting ready to call football games soon
    – farfa – probably just being happy being farfa
    – danvt – whenever i need a bit of a break, i put myself inside that absolutely exquisite little bookstore in the town where he lives, of course which is playing some of his tunes – forget that, he’s there live and playing away

    i haven’t done it yet, but, the thought keeps going through my mind, to get a pad and pen and write down everyone’s name i can remember and write down a few details about them…

    for me, usually takes about five years or so to really get to know people – got to see them on good days as well as not so good…

    unlike you all – there is no way i can correlate names to basketball opinions…zero chance i’ll be able to recall that…i need to match up names with moniker meaning (never forget ess-dog now that i looked up its meaning, which was pretty cool), geography, profession, family, hobbies and vices…real easy for me to remember vices :-)

    only really been the last couple of years that i’ve noticed folks slipping out with a little more details of themselves…although it’s easy to understand how anonymity is one of the benefits to “socializing” online…

  81. Maybe your side just sucks…

    Again, I’m not a fan of Trump or the GOP at all. This is more of a “but I will defend to the death your right to say it” Voltaire pseudo-quote type of thing.

  82. Jowles, when working on my Sopranos book, I came to an even greater appreciation of Gandolfini’s work than I already had, to the point where if there’s some kind of TV Actor Mt. Rushmore, then Jim needs his own separate mountain.

    Case in point: among my least favorite episodes is season 4’s “Watching Too Much Television,” yet it ends with maybe my favorite Sopranos scene, most of which is just Gandolfini acting against thin air: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMw7b4ltJtk

  83. I’d unban Bob, and let the now-temporary ban be a slap on the wrist for what looks like intentionally stoking the flames/derailing discussion.

  84. alsep,

    On a show like The Sopranos, how do directors/writers/producers/script editors/actors establish emotional continuity or intensity from scene to scene, especially when shot out of chronological order? Would Gandolfini be taking direction on the flow of the scene? Would it be a dialogue between him and the writers and director?

  85. If you guys want him back I can live with it. I’m not going to reply to him or read his posts though.

  86. I’ve been watching The Expanse, but I’m not a huge fan. Everyone I’ve talked to swears it gets better, but I really don’t think any of the characters or plots in season 1 are compelling.

    Strangely, I really enjoyed the first few seasons and just haven’t been able to muster up the interest to watch the later ones. That basically dovetails with how I felt about the books though. It’s super low budget, and it seems to me they hired actors mostly for how they sound instead of long demonstrated skill, which I think is maybe my favorite part of the adaptation.

    RE: distant gas giants, it’d be different if he had actually engaged with what people wrote instead of fighting against whatever tangent he’d conjured up in his mind. He rarely engaged with his ‘opponents’, preferring instead to knock down windmills so he could own the libs in his own head. Mr Walsh said it best. Happy his clutter is gone, not interested in a return performance.

  87. I think a basic expectation of being here is that you engage in good-faith debate. I think Bob had strayed from that expectation lately and seemed quite focused on both owning the libs and dominating the conversation rather than engaging in respectful persuasion.

    The platonic ideal of KB is certainly a politics free zone but these are extraordinary times. It’s far more of a community than it’s ever been, which is a great thing, but I do think that places an even higher burden on all of us, right and left, to keep it civil.

    Maybe he could have just taken a few months off but I think Bob was probably ready to go anyway. Seems best for all involved.

  88. If you guys want him back I can live with it. I’m not going to reply to him or read his posts though.

    A chrome extension that blanks out certain posters would once more be the Knickerblogger holy grail.

  89. The World vs Coronavirus is pretty much the only live spectator sport on TV these days, so it’s hard to fault Bob for wanting to discuss the various sub-matches of it here. But that said, he was a miserable member of this community, and brought nothing of value to anybody but himself here (outside of the occasional horse-breeding allegory or Shakespeare quote).

    Jowles, JK, myself, and others here may use strong language, assert our positions strongly, and not show any openness to changing our opinions (just like Bob), but at the same time we contribute as a net-positive, seeking to make this site, which is now 100% user generated, with 866 post threads on no original content, a better place to discuss the Knicks and its tangential subjects.

    In short, Bob was a troll. He sought disharmony, and wasn’t interested in making this site better. So I support his ban, not for his political opinions, but for his behavior as a guest.

  90. I think a basic expectation of being here is that you engage in good-faith debate. I think Bob had strayed from that expectation lately and seemed quite focused on both owning the libs and dominating the conversation rather than engaging in respectful persuasion.

    I agree. He never read and thought about what others were saying, so there was no dialogue with him.

  91. I don’t think Bob was a troll, but he obviously was not interested in changing his mind… but I don’t think anyone here is any better, geo excluded (you often change your own damn mind mid-sentence, but it’s usually about random towns I never heard of :) He was obviously the only right-wing dude on the blog. I don’t think he was any more disrespectful than anyone else here; I think he was less disrespectful than some. He was no troll. His strawman arguments weren’t any worse than many other posters who engaged him.

    I would say he was asked his opinion more than he delivered anything unprompted.

    I hate Trump, the GOP, and everything about the ‘right’ these days. My daily coffee mug says “I hate Trump.” But I wouldn’t censor right wingers for their opinion. That’s what makes society worse. This has ‘cancel’ written all over it.

  92. By the way, loved Boardwalk Empire, but Buscemi was a huge miss. He’s amazing as a neurotic and loveable outsider/misfit- he’s a great character actor. But he doesn’t convey confidence, power, or potent anger very well. Something Gandolfini was fantastic at. I mean, look at the top mobsters in movies and TV, all very good at conveying anger or sheer determination. Buscemi as Nucky conveyed perpetual annoyance. The real Nucky was ruthless, and looked like Tony Soprano.

  93. I’m not gonna lie, its nice not having him here, he was draining. Politics aside, his bball takes were shitty.

    Ditto….

  94. Donnie Walsh:

    In short, Bob was a troll. He sought disharmony, and wasn’t interested in making this site better. So I support his ban, not for his political opinions, but for his behavior as a guest.

    Totally agree that Bob was a troll. I’m kind of neutral about his banning b/c I’d long since stopped reading his posts in whole, and then even in part after he used “libtard” in a non-ironic way. So, I don’t really know any of the specifics about his recent posts other than the general “I’m right and the rest of you are idiots” mantra.

    On the bright side, my right index finger got a good workout from using the mouse wheel to scroll down past his many posts…

  95. clashfan…ditto that as well..i got a blister on the right index from scrolling so fast past his hot air…

  96. Oh, btw, The Expanse. I’ve watched all four seasons and like it. It’s not great by any means, but there’s just enough of a Firefly vibe there to keep me watching. I’m not as big a fan of all the power politics stuff.

    There was huge shift in the plot focus of the show that was kind of offputting in season three (I think it was). Also, a rather likable, intelligent character in the show suddenly got real stupid at one point.

  97. Loved Boardwalk Empire, I was OK with Buscemi as Nucky but agree his appearance was often annoyed looking instead of menacing. Bobby Cannavale had a great cameo as Gyp Rossetti.

    Also been watching a fun show on Amazon called The Boys. Super heroes controlled by a massive corporation. Worth checking out.

  98. I don’t think bob was “cancelled” for his stridently pro-Trump opinions. I see his banning as more along the lines of that of Ted Nelson, another long time poster who was similarly abrasive but had been tolerated here for years. It was only after Ted started comandeering thread after thread with endless posts in which he’d belabor some minor point to within an inch of its life that the mods grew weary of his schtick and sent him packing.

    As someone whose engagement with this site is 99% passive, I was sad to see him go. I had enjoyed reading many of Ted’s posts prior to his losing his mind. I had also enjoyed reading much of what bob had to say through the years before he decided to carpet bomb this site with Tucker Carlson’s Greatest Hits. What makes this site great for diehard lurkers like me is following the back and forth between intelligent voices with a diverse range of knowledge and opinions on any number of subjects. When one of those voices chooses to turn this forum into his own personal soapbox, that dynamic quickly falls apart and a very entertaining site becomes tedious. In the interests of maintaining the multi-voiced back ‘n forth that makes this site click, I understand – and support – the banning of bobneptune as well as that of Ted Nelson before him.

  99. By the way, loved Boardwalk Empire, but Buscemi was a huge miss.

    Buscemi as Nucky conveyed perpetual annoyance.

    YES, YES, YES, this sooo much…exactly, he came off all the time as annoyed…during one of the after episode interviews it was mentioned that steve buscemi was a really decent high school wrestler out on long island (that’s pretty cool) – but, there was a few scenes were he’s required to “get in to it” – it looked really awkward…

    the cast as an entirety was absolutely amazing, the stories superb…the sets and costumes – top of the class…i read somewhere (i think it may have our very own al actually) that it was scorsese who pushed hard for buscemi to play nucky…

    i don’t know, maybe to him buscemi was a large man and physically intimidating (as well as charming)…

  100. there’s just enough of a Firefly vibe there to keep me watching.

    oh, that “firefly” stuff caught my attention…what an absolutely hidden gem that whole show was…ran in to serenity prior to watching that first (and only) season…

    actually, got the firefly/serenity dvds next to the playstation…i want to finish some more boardwalk empire and then go back through john adams after that…still need to finish seasons 4 & 5 of the wire

    all that is much much better to have on the “to-do” list than you know – cleaning house or work stuff…

  101. ***This has ‘cancel’ written all over it.***

    I don’t think so. Hubert prides himself on not being part of the “Greek Chorus”. He engages in the various conversations we have here in a totally appropriate manner. Some get rankled, sometimes harsh words are exchanged, but nobody has ever called for the banning of Hubert. Stratomatic (née, Lockwood jr, née deeefense), also not of a Greek Chorus Line, even went as so far as to beg to be banned, and his application was denied. So it’s not like those who stand against the general consensus here are silenced, or as you say “canceled”. And, as CdP mentions, Ted Nelson (and jonabbey too) we’re both people who contributed A LOT of value to this site. They WERE the Greek Chorus here for a while, but both of them got banned, not for what they believed, but for how they presented themselves. If you are driving away traffic, you should be banned. Just like if you are driving away advertisers, you should be taken off the air. It’s not a symptom of “cancel culture” it’s a symptom of bad manners and basic capitalism.

  102. On a show like The Sopranos, how do directors/writers/producers/script editors/actors establish emotional continuity or intensity from scene to scene, especially when shot out of chronological order? Would Gandolfini be taking direction on the flow of the scene? Would it be a dialogue between him and the writers and director?

    The director, the writer, the script supervisor, etc., would all be there to remind him where that scene is, chronologically and emotionally, relative to other things they’d filmed for that episode. I have no idea when the “Oh Girl” scene was filmed during production of that episode, for instance, but if it hypothetically was shot before the earlier moment where the song is discussed and Tony finds out that Irina has hooked up with Zellman, then the director and other members of the crew would be there to remind Jim of why the song is affecting him in that way at that moment. Occasionally, films or shows will try to save climactic emotional moments for the ends of shoots, if not try to film everything in order, but logistics of production tend to take precedence.

  103. Re: other TV discussion:

    * Boardwalk was definitely what I’ve long referred to as a donut show, where there’s so much delicious stuff on the outside and a big hole in the middle. Buscemi is a great, great actor, but Nucky was almost always the least interesting person on that show. It’s not a coincidence that the best season — the fourth — was one that treated Chalky White as the co-lead.

    * The Expanse is hit-or-miss with me, in that I don’t care about most of the characters (particularly Holden, who makes Nucky look like a charismatic dynamo in comparison), but the world-building and the way it presents a life lived in space is often interesting enough for me to stick with it. (In general, I’ve found the show’s most passionate fans tend to be people who are fond of dropping the phrase “hard sci-fi” into conversations.) I haven’t watched the latest season, the first one made directly for Amazon, but it’s on my long catch-up list for whenever we run out of new shows entirely due to the pandemic.

  104. Oh, and actual basketball news of interest: Brett Brown says Shake Milton is, for the moment, the Sixers starting PG, while Simmons has mostly been playing the 4 in scrimmages.

  105. Btw, Carmelo Anthony looks almost unrecognizable after losing weight during the lockdown — see the gym footage on The Score’s Instagram page.

    Maybe he’s worth a flier after all?

  106. I flew through the Expanse…not sure if it was because it was the beginning of shelter in place and had nothing else to do or if I really liked it but i have shifted to the foreign language stuff, Dark, Bordertown, Money Heist…seems to be an endless inventory to probe into on Netflix…on Amazon…i just watched Hannah Season 2…that was average….I think Fleabag was the best i have watch on Amazon…the Tick was pretty good.

    I watched the new Charlize Theron this weekend on Netflix…”Old Guard” …that was disappointing…seemed like she was just going for the paycheck (can’t blame her for that though)…

  107. Maybe he’s worth a flier after all?

    There are only two ways in which Melo is NOT a Knick next year:

    1)He performs so resurgently in the playoffs that a contending team is willing to give him a contract to be in their rotation next season;

    2)Thibs — or whomever gets the job if Thibs somehow doesn’t — is adamant with Rose that Melo would do more harm than good on a rebuilding team.

    So, yeah, Melo will be on the Knicks again next season.

  108. Here’s a (not so) fun question for us to debate.

    For next season if you HAD to choose, would you rather start Melo at the 4 or Randle at the 4? This question assumes if Melo is here, Randle has been traded. Also assumes Melo would just be here on a one year deal and if Randle stayed, he would not be picked up for the following season.

  109. I mean, if a year of Melo relegates Randle to the bench, that definitely makes taking a flier on him more worth it.

  110. Barring the most obvious hate speech, I don’t think anyone should be banned. If someone is a troll or you don’t like what they say, just skip over their posts.

  111. I’ve never seen Carmelo in shape like that. Even at Syracuse, he was a soft dude. I wonder if it’s less partying, more sleep, less eating out, or an intentional diet program.

  112. reub was a textbook case of somebody who needed to be banned. He was intentionally offensive all the time and played this pretend-dumb character in order to intentionally derail threads and bring attention to himself. He’s the worst poster in the history of the site.

    bobneptune is (was?) not in that category.

  113. just like i could sit all day and read jk talk music, something about al with the tv stuff…their passion for those things really comes through – both tell such a good story…

    oh yeah, finally caught the first couple of episodes of the mandalorian…didn’t bother with the 3rd episode…i don’t know, i was expecting something a little more rogue one-ish…it was kind of silly…

    i’ll give it another try down the road…

  114. Melo looks like he lost a fair amount of muscle along with the fat.

    I’m generally skeptical that weight has as big an impact as people think.

    I doubt he’s significantly faster or quicker at the lighter weight or anymore likely to blow by a defender.

    Maybe he can elevate a bit better or his legs won’t tire as much from his endless midrange jumpers.

    If nothing else, I think he’s lost too much due to age to make up for it through training, unless he just sticks to draining threes all day.

    I will admit it is good to see him give a shit finally

  115. Also, I’d much rather have Randle than Melo, especially at this point in their careers. Is this a serious question or are we grabbing Melo to supertank?

    I’d like to flip Randle at next year’s deadline or at least see if anyone is willing to bite. Melo won’t return anything unless he starts lighting the 3pt line on fire

  116. would you rather start Melo at the 4 or Randle at the 4?

    julius, all day every day…

    one of he things i liked about league pass was being able to watch more of what happens on the court after the whistle…

    julius seems to have really good rapport throughout the league…it’s hilarious though to watch him put his head down after the play ends and either bull his way to the bench, line or locker room…people just bounce off of him along his path…

    maybe with the right coach – he’ll get it worked out…

  117. I’d rather have your typical past-his-prime superstar at the stage Melo is at than I would Randle, because in theory that guy would recognize that his skills aren’t what they were, and that he’s there to provide some veteran stability on a team where the kids should be the focus — and, thus, would be a much better fit than Randle the sloppy ballhandling black hole. I admittedly haven’t looked at Melo’s usage numbers in Portland, but I would not expect him to be particularly deferential in his second stint here.

  118. bob probably views his banning as some kind of moral victory. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s bragging to someone about it right now.

    The most annoying thing for me was how he lumped all who disagreed with him into his own “basket of deplorables” even though it’s obvious that many of those arguing against him had divergent opinions on a host of issues. There’s a huge gulf between Hillary-Biden socially liberal centrists and Bernie-Warren progressives.

  119. Even diminished, Melo’s iso-game is more refined than Randle’s. And at a much lower price these days.

  120. I would watch the hell out of a Chalky White show. Or an Omar show. Hell, give this man a show.

  121. I don’t think anyone should be banned. If someone is a troll or you don’t like what they say, just skip over their posts.

    i understand what folks are saying regarding the action; however – just look at all the different names on this thread…that seems like much more than a fair bargain…

    fewer negative emotional distractions makes it a lot easier to focus on other voices…that’s a really good thing…

    don’t get me wrong – baby i like it raw, but, let’s let some others guide the discussion…

  122. alsep73:
    I’d rather have your typical past-his-prime superstar at the stage Melo is at than I would Randle, because in theory that guy would recognize that his skills aren’t what they were, and that he’s there to provide some veteran stability on a team where the kids should be the focus — and, thus, would be a much better fit than Randle the sloppy ballhandling black hole. I admittedly haven’t looked at Melo’s usage numbers in Portland, but I would not expect him to be particularly deferential in his second stint here.

    I’m not sure Melo’s USG% in Portland would be that telling. It’s one thing to defer to Damian Lillard, I think it’ll be too much to ask Melo to defer to Knox, Frank, and RJ while continuously getting blown out. Melo in particular seems kind of oblivious to how the rest of the league views him.

  123. KnickfaninNJ
    July 12, 2020 at 12:39 pm

    “RJ/Knox/Frank will go down as the worst lotto run ever.

    It’s definitely not a good run of picks, but worst ever is stretching it.”
    ————————————-

    Is “worst ever” a stretch? Let’s take a look at competing 1-10 picks for 3 seasons in a row:

    Knicks: Ntilikina (8), Know (9), and Barrett (3)

    vs.

    Hawks: Josh Childress (6), Marvin Williams (2), Sheldon Williams (5)
    Analysis: this isn’t a good run, but Marvin Williams has played 30,000 minutes at league average production. Will RJ match that?)

    vs.

    Bulls: Marcus Fizer (4), Eddy Curry (4), Jay Williams (2)
    Analysis: Curry at least got the Bulls 2 unprotected 1st rounders, and Williams’ career ended before it began due to a motorcycle accident, so there’s an * next to this one.

    vs.

    Raptors: Rafael Arujo (8), Charlie Villanueva (7), Andrea Bargnani (1)
    Analysis: these are three bad players, but even these scrubs were all batter, even during their first three seasons, than Frank, Knox, and RJ have been.

    vs.

    Timberwolves: Johnny Flynn (6), Wesley Johnson (4), Derrick Williams (2)
    Analysis: This is bad. BUT Marco Rubio was also selected in the lottery during this run, so they were really 1-4, not 0-3.

    vs.

    Kings: Thomas Robinson (5), Ben McLemore (7), Nik Stauskas (8)
    Analysis: If any of Frank, Know, or RJ improves to league useful levels, the Knicks won’t be the worst run. So congratulations may be in order if the Knicks are less dubious than the Kings. (But the jury’s not out yet!)

    vs.

    Cavs: Dion Waiters (4), Anthony Bennet (1), Andrew Wiggins (1)
    Analysis: This is a horrible three year stretch of drafting. But, like Eddy Curry, Wiggins netted a championship cornerstone before he brought his team down. So, an asterisk is affixed.

  124. No reason to see Melo come back. I see poor role modeling, poor in game plays, poor cooperation with the youth, and a whole lot of gtfo that’s my rebound

  125. Re: The Expanse

    I LOVE Firefly, but so much of that was due to the crew’s chemistry and character arcs and I just don’t feel the same way about anyone on the Rocinante. Granted lots of that is due to Holden taking center stage, while the other members have their moments.

    I just started the second story arc in season 3 (I mean what else am I supposed to do?) and I’m actually enjoying it. There’s finally some mystery I find compelling. Also I enjoy David Strathairn who just joined the cast and I’m hoping adds a bit more to the show.

    Perhaps, I just prefer my scifi fun and pulpy rather than self-serious and melodramatic.

    Also, The Boys I found more enjoyable than I thought I would. I co-sign that one.

  126. Also, in looking at top-ten picks I noticed some interesting stuff.

    Since drafting Olajuwon #1 in 1984, the Rockets have only made three top-ten draft selections and two of them they traded before they ever stepped foot in Houston (Joel Przybilla and Rudy Gay).

    Since the draft went to two rounds in 1989, OKC(/SEA) has only made three top-ten picks: Durant, Westbrook, and Harden.

    Since the draft went to two rounds, San Antonio has only selected in the top 17 once (Tim Duncan #1).

    Since the draft went to two rounds, the Indiana Pacers have never selected in the top ten.

    (To put this into perspective, the pick trading, draft eschewing Knicks of the past 30 years have selected in the top ten 9 times)

  127. I am fascinated by Skinny Melo. I am also in the weight doesn’t matter camp (within reason) but it would be an incredible story if Melo being born again as a best shaper turned him into the player people wrongly thought he always was. This is the plot twist no one ever saw coming.

    Also, quite obviously, no way in hell we should have him back, just for triggering reasons alone.

  128. Melo’s always been a good rebounder and a better 3-pt shooter than Randle, so he would make a good enough stretch 4 next to Mitch for one season. His defense is obviously lacking, but if he bought into his role, I’d much prefer him to Randle (who would then become the backup center I guess?)

    But if the real goal is to sign Christian Wood as the starting pf and have Knox back him up, that’s clearly a better plan.

  129. I don’t know how you arrive at Melo (even in a pandemic induced trimmer body) as a net positive on any team……I guess if you want to role model selfishness than sign him up…

  130. Just for the record, I’m fine with the Bob-Ban. JK actually had it, although he was arguing the opposite re Reub: “…in order to intentionally derail threads and bring attention to himself.” I didn’t agree with Bob on almost anything, but that’s okay. It was his every-thread attempts to make KB the Bob Neptune Show, with every other post coming from Bob, that was the kicker. A couple of rancid pro-Trump posts would be annoying but no big thing. But I don’t come to KB to read NBB (Nothing But Bob). Plus he was non-stop rude. I actually appreciate when people here become so impassioned about something they write enraged tomfoolery and toss a few word bombs. But the constant insults directed toward everyone who wasn’t in his echo chamber just got exhausting. It wasn’t what he was saying, it was how (often) he was saying it. He had to go.

  131. TheOakmanCometh:
    Barring the most obvious hate speech, I don’t think anyone should be banned. If someone is a troll or you don’t like what they say, just skip over their posts.

    I generally agree with that. However, it does lead to the question of how many posts per day, week, whatever before enough is enough?

    As for Melo, please no? Skinny Melo. Hoodie Melo. Whatever. How about Humble Melo or Contrite Melo?

  132. Melo is one of the worst players in the league already. Next year he’s only going to be worse.

    Only 3 players are left from the 2003 draft: LeBron, Korver, and Melo. LeBron is a cyborg. Korver is a workout warrior with one highly advanced skill. Melo is a doughy, selfish iso-baller who hasn’t adjusted his game with time. He doesn’t belong in the league anymore.

    That said, I might STILL take him over Randle because his shooting makes him a better fit with Mitch and RJ. The team would be worse but at least those two guys would develop a little better. He’s also likely to play fewer minutes because he’s old, so we can give minutes to actual NBA players.

  133. Z: Cavs: Dion Waiters (4), Anthony Bennet (1), Andrew Wiggins (1)
    Analysis: This is a horrible three year stretch of drafting. But, like Eddy Curry, Wiggins netted a championship cornerstone before he brought his team down. So, an asterisk is affixed.

    Okay I’ll admit I was wrong when I initially said (hyperbolically) that Knox, Frank, and RJ was the worst lotto run ever. This Cavs run is grotesque especially when factoring in draft position. Yuck!

    Still need to see Frank maintain last year’s efficiency and improve rather than regress. Knox I have no confidence in. RJ, needs to step up bigtime. It’s not crazy for a sophomore but I’ve always been down on him because I think he’s a little too slow and inefficient to be effective in the NBA. Really rooting for him.

  134. Also, for what it’s worth, I don’t ever remember Bob apologizing for something he said.

    Plenty of us have gone off on other posters here for basketball and on basketball related topics. But usually the regular posters, if they do that, apologize later in the thread or the next day. I think that is what makes this board so great. We can make mistakes and all is forgiven. But reading the threads these last few weeks (months?) with Bob, it was just him going after everyone all the time, hijacking threads, etc…it got really exhausting.

  135. Z — symmetry demands that if you mention the top ten picks the rockets immediately traded away you also mention eddie griffin

    also the spurs obviously traded for kawhi and paul george and dampier both went 10th and george mcloud went even higher maybe 8th (edit 7th)

  136. at this point i think melo trading off some extra cushion for being cross fit lean is probably a net negative for him in an nba game

  137. Just for the record, I’m fine with the Bob-Ban. JK actually had it, although he was arguing the opposite re Reub: “…in order to intentionally derail threads and bring attention to himself.” I didn’t agree with Bob on almost anything, but that’s okay. It was his every-thread attempts to make KB the Bob Neptune Show, with every other post coming from Bob, that was the kicker. A couple of rancid pro-Trump posts would be annoying but no big thing. But I don’t come to KB to read NBB (Nothing But Bob). Plus he was non-stop rude. I actually appreciate when people here become so impassioned about something they write enraged tomfoolery and toss a few word bombs. But the constant insults directed toward everyone who wasn’t in his echo chamber just got exhausting. It wasn’t what he was saying, it was how (often) he was saying it. He had to go.

    I hear what you’re saying, Raven. However, there is always the option to skip over his posts. Even if he posts 100 times a day, we can just ignore all of them. Literally pretend he doesn’t exist. When no one responds or engages with him, he’ll stop. Provocateurs feed off the bickering.

    And let’s be honest, there is a double standard on this blog when it comes to rudeness. People expressing popular opinions throw out plenty of insults here. I find myself agreeing with their underlying arguments while cringing at the lack of class. While I disagree with almost everything bob writes, he shouldn’t be held to a higher standard of conduct than anyone else.

  138. also i missed in the original post that bobneptune was banned. i don’t consider him to be a troll and personally would not have banned him. i think of him and strat as statler and waldorf, if statler and waldorf has the comic sensibilities of stanley roper and rick santelli. funny, but not in that way. yet still entirely earnest and sincere interneople.

  139. swiftandabundant:
    Here’s a (not so) fun question for us to debate.

    For next season if you HAD to choose, would you rather start Melo at the 4 or Randle at the 4? This question assumes if Melo is here, Randle has been traded. Also assumes Melo would just be here on a one year deal and if Randle stayed, he would not be picked up for the following season.

    Interesting. I would pick Randle. At least he scores more efficiently. I think Randle would be more useful with more shooters around him and the line up last year hurt him.

  140. Melo back to the Knicks would be like a Led Zeppelin Last ReUnion.
    Not necessary but Nostalgically beautiful.

    If you can put 2 players to set a screen, one on Julius’ left and one on his right and force him not to spin he’s going to be useful.

  141. However, there is always the option to skip over his posts. Even if he posts 100 times a day, we can just ignore all of them. Literally pretend he doesn’t exist.

    I’m not sure this is true. Other conversations were discontinued and buried under several volumes worth of Bob posts. So even if we can conceptually ignore all his posts, people can’t practically ignore them and carry on their own discussions. Bob stymied other discussion and that’s problematic on a blog that only has one active thread at a time. So in effect Bob was silencing more voices by speaking than are silenced by banning him.

    And I think the moderators of KB should have the flexibility to enforce bans if someone continually dances around breaking rules and breaks the rules in spirit even if they don’t literally violate them.

    But if we could start a dedicated KnickerBobber thread, then I don’t think anyone would mind allowing him to stay. I just don’t think anyone would read it.

  142. Also, I just don’t get why we’d hire Melo at all. If we had a spare roster spot, it should go to some young guy who has a chance to develop. Already we are probably drafting three new players next year and need openings for them. If it’s something like waive Dotson to fit Melo in, do you really want to do that?

  143. If Leon can pull off a CP3-Melo-GreakFreak plan i will build him a shrine and worship him as a God.

  144. KnickfaninNJ:
    Also, I just don’t get why we’d hire Melo at all.If we had a spare roster spot, it should go to some young guy who has a chance to develop. Already we are probably drafting three new players next year and need openings for them. If it’s something like waive Dotson to fit Melo in, do you really want to do that?

    I’m not looking forward to seeing the Melo iso and jab step ever again.

  145. Please no Melo. Just, don’t do it Leon.

    Granted lots of that is due to Holden taking center stage, while the other members have their moments.

    Yeah. The acting is less than stellar which is problematic when the main character is intentionally annoying. It also felt to me that they punted on the mystery aspects in the first seasons and dropped the ball on the horror. It just ends up extremely uneven.

    pepper, I watched the first five or so eps of Hanna season 2 and quit. It kept switching directions so much I didn’t care what happened anymore.

  146. Tango usually takes two.
    If Bob or anyone else fucks threads it’s usually not by his own.

    Supporting inhumane politic systems, violence and exploitation in general ain’t smart but it’s happening from the big bang till this very moment.

    Freedom of speech is a nice tool to open minds and hearts and raise the percentages of Humans against Beasts.

  147. Yeah. The acting is less than stellar which is problematic when the main character is intentionally annoying. It also felt to me that they punted on the mystery aspects in the first seasons and dropped the ball on the horror. It just ends up extremely uneven.

    It’s one of the areas where the budget really fucked them, as they clearly couldn’t get any top of the line actors outside of Thomas Jane.

  148. The Knicks were 29th in the NBA in eFG% last year, with a .501 percentage as a team.

    Melo’s eFG% last year was .479.

    Yep, definitely what we need!

  149. It’s one of the areas where the budget really fucked them, as they clearly couldn’t get any top of the line actors outside of Thomas Jane.

    For sure. I do love that they cast for the sound of people’s voices, it makes the world feel more lived in. But I don’t think it’s possible to do the third arc with Wes Chatham playing Amos.

    I still think it was a pretty great achievement considering the budget.

  150. grocer: Both seasons on Hannah were uneven…whenever the portray the incompetence of the intelligence agency beyond belief and at the same time show how they can find someone in a forest in five seconds halfway around the world…things start to to break down fast…

    I am looking forward to Season 6 on Expanse…just to see that new bad guy (Naomi’s son) get blasted out of the hatch into deep space…he was annoying…I saw that Cas the indian pilot guy was accused of sexual misconduct…wonder if they will have to replace him….

  151. I saw that Cas the indian pilot guy was accused of sexual misconduct…wonder if they will have to replace him….

    why not just shoot him out the space hatch…

  152. Melo could follow the greatest exercise-and-diet routine known to man and still be 36 years old in a league dominated by guys between 22 and 30.

  153. why not just shoot him out the space hatch…

    I guess they could if they put him in one of those Tesla rockets…

  154. I still think it was a pretty great achievement considering the budget.

    I don’t watch them, but that’s what I always admire about the Hallmark movie model. They have puny budgets, too, but they use the money wisely by getting strong, undervalued female leads and then spring for one or two older character actors that people might remember from a 30-40 year old sitcom. It’s a brilliant use of their paltry budgets.

  155. well, if there is one white house positive over the last 4 years, trump did establish the Space Force as its own branch…honestly though, that was a cherry which should have been picked many administrations ago…

  156. “Sacramento Kings center Richaun Holmes is in quarantine once again after leaving the NBA’s bubble to pick up a food delivery.”

    Taking bets on who the next guy will be?

  157. Melo was playing some of the best basketball of his career in NY until he hurt his knee and continued playing on it during 2014-2015 season. He was hurt from the start of the season (game 2 I believe).

    He was never the same after the surgery. Once he lost a little quickness and lift it was basically over for him. Shit happens. Sometimes careers are derailed by injuries, especially when you over 30.

    It would be beyond pointless to bring him back to NY. Not only can’t he play anymore, if he mentored RJ and others it would probably be a negative. Talent and skill was never Melo’s problem. The problem was he never learned how to play basketball. So why exactly would we want him screwing up RJ like he was screwing up KP?

    That this is even a conversation in NY tells you how brain damaged level stupid our management is.

    Hopefully Thibs will shut that down if he’s hired, but he probably won’t have that power so soon.

  158. Both seasons on Hannah were uneven

    True, but the first season had a momentum to it. The story was going somewhere in a fairly entertaining fashion even if lots of what was going on was silly. The second season was just running in circles.

    I don’t watch them, but that’s what I always admire about the Hallmark movie model.

    Same on both counts. It’s like Mimi Sheraton said about reviewing restaurants: you have to do it based on what they’re actually trying to do, not on what you think they should be trying to do. In that vein, tonight’s entertainment will be Money Plane. I hope you all join me so we can discuss it later.

  159. Taking bets on who the next guy will be?

    Once the season starts up again, players will have to pay 1% of their salary every time they break quarantine. I imagine even these guys don’t want to risk $100,000 on some takeout.

  160. 8. zero discernible improvement from dotson and dsj (whatever)

    ptmilo.

    Your list was very good, but I think we have to elaborate on the Dotson story a little.

    Dotson had surgery in the off season last year. He never had a chance to chance to work on his game and barely made it to camp on time. He was probably a few weeks behind the rest of the team coming into the season. He played poorly in limited minutes in October and November, but started to look like he was getting in shape again after that and started playing quite a bit better.

    It’s not like trading him or letting him go would be some kind of terrible blow, but he has shown flashes of really being able to light it up and shoot 3s in streaks. His handle and willingness to shoot off the dribble was slowly inching forward, and he at least tries on defense even if there is still work to do.

    I think it would be wise to see what he looks like next season before moving on. Hopefully he can find gym time and work on his game this off season. That would make next year the make or break year for his career. IMHO, it would be a mistake to give up on him based on what we saw this season overall. We didn’t see enough of a healthy Dotson with a summer of work on his game. I think he still has a chance to be a very good and cheap two-way role player off the bench. I’d try to bring him back.

  161. ***Once the season starts up again, players will have to pay 1% of their salary every time they break quarantine. I imagine even these guys don’t want to risk $100,000 on some takeout.***

    Maybe for takeout, but what about for a lap dance?

  162. Donnie Walsh: Maybe for takeout, but what about for a lap dance?

    This week on Survivor: NBA Bubble Edition who will risk his shot at $100,000 for a lap dance? Tune in to find out.

  163. After listening to the Dunc’d On podcast, it really does seem like this team’s few decent pieces desperately need reliable outside shooters more than anything. That and a terrific pick and roll ball handler to work with Mitch.

  164. I wonder how they caught him “going outside the bubble”,….do they have GPS on them and he went outside the perimeter and alarms went off in Adam Silver’s office or are there a bunch of cameras and he thought he was being stealthy and avoiding detection but he was caught on tape….if it was an Uber Eats driver…did he drive to the edge of the bubble and he couldn’t penetrate or lob the food in so Richaun had to puncture the magnetic field to reach for it?

  165. I scrolled up a bit to see what we were discussing and I saw the words “start Melo” and I decided I don’t want to know.

  166. they have some kind of wrist monitoring devices (the latest in human lo-jacking)…

    also confirms virus status…I’m sure you can take the thing off though…

  167. I posted a video the other day of Simmons trying to throw a fish back into the water and missing….

    In favor

  168. Count de Pennies:
    I don’t think bob was “cancelled” for his stridently pro-Trump opinions. I see his banning as more along the lines of that of Ted Nelson, another long time poster who was similarly abrasive but had been tolerated here for years. It was only after Ted started comandeering thread after thread with endless posts in which he’d belabor some minor point to within an inch of its life that the mods grew weary of his schtick and sent him packing.

    As someone whose engagement with this site is 99% passive, I was sad to see him go. I had enjoyed reading many of Ted’s posts prior to his losing his mind. I had also enjoyed reading much of what bob had to say through the years before he decided to carpet bomb this site with Tucker Carlson’s Greatest Hits.

    IIRC, I started to lurk around here in 2013. Ted Nelson was not posting at the time. Then after some weeks or months he came back and started to hijack threads with numerous and ENORMOUS posts. He happened to defend some polarizing point of view that generated a lot of arguing. One of the problems was the he started being dismissive towards any poster who would not write a mini-essay to counter his points (and he would somewhat brag about his Law formation, something like that). The tipping point came when he said something that offended Mike Kurylo, who demanded an apology that never came (or was that Captain Luke?). By the time he got banned, many posters were just skipping his posts and comparing him to an older poster, DogRufus (presumably, a troll). Despite that, many on this site lamented the ban (like Count De Pennies), since Ted Nelson was a very informed longtime poster, who had been one of the steadiest presences on the board during the dark days of 2006-2008.

    My lurking memories are kinda hazy, but I believe it was more or less like that, for those who were not here yet.

  169. “it would be funny to listen to him try to spin Trump’s denialism”

    It WOULD be funny…if New York weren’t the absolute ground zero for COVID-19 in the United States, with more than TWICE as many deaths as Texas, Florida, and California combined.

    Heaven knows there’s plenty to criticize when it comes to President Trump but when our medical “experts” went from begging us in March to NOT wear masks to telling us in late-May and early-June that it was JUST FINE for thousands of people to stand nuts to butts yelling their heads off in public protests, anyone who pretends that Trump is really the problem with this pandemic is just revealing how shallow and tribal their thinking really is.

    Mike

  170. Didn’t Ted do a lot of “citation please”?

    What was funny to me about Ted was that he had this bit like, “If you don’t want to talk to me, don’t.” So I didn’t and then it was, “Why won’t you respond to my points?” It was truly that laughable.

  171. We didn’t see enough of a healthy Dotson with a summer of work on his game. I think he still has a chance to be a very good and cheap two-way role player off the bench. I’d try to bring him back.

    as long as he doesn’t get a real rfa offer from someone, sure why not. but i’m not sold on the “he lost some gym time” theory of his potential. dotson is older than giannis. he’ll be 27 years old then next time an nba final tips off (or maybe 37; jr smith is in the bubble). he played 4 college years and has gotten real nba minutes. i mean who doesn’t miss some time on their first 3 years? dillon brooks who was picked right after him missed most of his sophomore year.

    plus from my perspective he is pretty much a ship in a
    bottle. he can practice his handle all day long, it’s not going to move the [pun]. he tops out at a 3 point shooter who is a try hard on D with good size but an incurable lack of quickness and reflexes to be a truly disruptive 3&D guard. his best case is courtney lee and it all comes down to where he can shoot 38plus from three. you can maybe convince me that og anunoby or zach collins need some critical gym time but i think dot is what he is.

    btw if you hadn’t seen it, bref is sadly taking the play index behind a paywall at stathead for $8 a month asap.

  172. @MikeVorkunov
    Sean Maclean started with Knicks today as an exec part of Brock Aller’s basketball strategy team, according to a source. He’ll be working alongside Michael Arcieri & others. Maclean worked in strategy lead roles at Capital One and Stack Sports before this.

    Hiring lots of smart people in the FO, at least.

  173. KB history lesson:

    Ted was a heavy contributor of vast basketball analysis to this site once. He had an intimate knowledge of various European leagues, and was highly analytical and data driven. I learned a lot from him when there wasn’t much else to do around the Knicks except learn how to try to build a basketball” franchise correctly. Then he went into self-exile around the time of the Carmelo Anthony trade. His void was filled almost instantly by Ruruland, who matched Ted in volume but not in wisdom. Then, when Phil did his infamous MMM, Ruru did a slow fade out, and the following summer Ted re-emerged briefly to discuss the signings of Aaron Aflafo and Derrick Williams. He had his same veracity and epic-prose style, but he’d seemed to have lost a beat in his analysis, and had really lost his ability to communicate in a constructive manner. He didn’t like being questioned by people who hadn’t earned his respect, and when the board asked him to chill out he became belligerent and demanded apologies, calling Mike a liar, etc… I remembered that it seemed like Ted had, maybe, gone off some meds or something, cause he really had a hard time communicating with the people here during his week back.

    Anyway, he was banned not for his bad takes on Derrick Williams (the fact that the Derrick Williams signing was the hill he chose to die on kinda shows just how off he was those days), but for being truly disruptive.

    Here’s the thread: http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-2015-07-24/

    (It’s actually an epic thread worth re-reading. Z-Man calls me an idiot (ah, the good ol’ days), stratomatic tries to coach Ted into not getting banned, reub (RIP) And Bob Neptune (RIP) make cameos, and finally Mike K, in banning Ted, defines a troll as “one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument”.)

  174. First: No one here thinks starting Melo is a good recipe for anything. I think someone simply asked a ‘do you prefer him over Randle’ hypothetical.

    Second: If you cut the head off a Ted Nelson, a Ruruland grows in its place, and when you cut the head off Ruru, a Bob grows, and once you cut off Bob’s head? A big fat Bunge appears! I guess what I’m saying is banning people doesn’t seem worth it.

  175. I can’t believe people here are actually in favor of re-signing Melo. Dude’s been washed up since he turned 30 and he’s 36 now. He hasn’t put up a league average eFG+ or TS+ since 2013-14. His eFG+ and TS+ or 91 and 92 are so bad he would have ranked 12th on the team this past season, in between Reggie Bullock and Frank Ntilikina. And that’s with the best 3PT% he’s had since 2013-14; he’s so bad at scoring and still such a chucker that he can’t even sniff a league average eFG or TS even though he shot 37% from 3. And scoring is his bet skill, he doesn’t do anything else. His defense was never good but it’s nonexistent now (DBPM of -1.8 and DRtg of 115) and he averages more turnovers than assists.

    RE: The Sopranos. I’ve been doing a rewatch, I’m nearly through season 6, and I knew it was great but God I forgot how great. It doesn’t have the episode to episode propulsiveness of a series like Breaking Bad but looking at the series as a whole it’s just beautiful.

  176. Dough Chew
    June 20, 2016 at 1:54 am
    People really want to see Durant on GS?

    I do. Forget the Death Lineup — a group with Durant and Green at the 4/5 is a global pandemic lineup.

    Talking about old threads, this post is pretty ironic right now.

    [I liked very much this “KB history lesson”. Some day I’m gonna choose random threads and highlight some bad and great takes we’ve been posting here over the years (THCJ already does it, haha). Some of them are really funny, like people talking good things about Adam Morrison before the draft. People make their points in good faith, but sometimes the exact opposite is what happens. :) People try to dream, but the Knicks are always there to smash their hopes]

  177. ptmilo:

    btw if you hadn’t seen it, bref is sadly taking the play index behind a paywall at stathead for $8 a month asap.

    Fuck, this sucks! $8/month for a single sport or $16/month for all sports. I understand why they’re doing it but I’m shocked the number is so high. I’m not sure I can justify $100/year on something that’s really more fun than anything especially when I just subscribed to Back Picks.

  178. I have always been right about everything. Including David Lee.

    Also, play index behind a pay wall is a tragedy. In 2006 I would have paid though.

  179. Donnie Walsh: Z-Man calls me an idiot (ah, the good ol’ days)

    …if only I had a nickel for every poster…

    I did enjoy the way we kissed and made up so quickly.

    PS Jeremy Lin Sucks

  180. Ah those Lin debates were almost as good as today’s Frank debates that everyone loves to participate in…

  181. I’d be totally down with signing Lin now, especially if it meant cutting bait with Smith Jr.

  182. the real question though grocer is – did you stick it out to the bitter end – even though it did suck (I googled it after you mentioned it – yeah, not so good ratings)…

    I had it confused with both money train and soul plane

    recently watched shazam, that was way better than I anticipated…

    the only comic story I remember with shazam in it was kingdom come…I think he was in it…

  183. We’ve officially uncoupled from Craig Robinson, so I don’t know who is in charge of our player development going forward. Are we looking to hire a new guy are is this something one of the many other new guys is going to run?

  184. Andy Williams Christmas special.

    Woah. Those are some transitions. It all comes full circle: Andy Williams was one of the original owners of the Phoenix Suns.

  185. My last set of binges on Netflix were The Last Kingdom and Ragnarok. Looking forward to new seasons sometime in 2050 when they can make new stuff again.

  186. I’m going to watch Money Plane and Money Heist, hopefully there is new money material in the pipeline

  187. I want a version of Money Plane with Jordan betting on an fucking an alligator and Wozniak is the steward.

    “I want your money and YOUR money”

  188. Just want to say, looks like Rose is a “get the best guys for the job” kind of guy with all these hires. Best capologist, best young executive, etc. Dont know if any of these guys deserve the rep, but at least it looks good. Even the analytics dude seems like a smart guy.

    As for coaching, I have no idea where Rose will go. Each potential hire has warts. Thibs is old-school in a modern game, Atkinson is a poor in game strategist, Woodson is perpetually shell-shocked. I’m ok with Thibs or Atkinson.

    As for shows, Ozark has been amazing, but slow to the build. Way worth it.

  189. In Begley’s story about Craig Robinson’s departure (and this is your periodic reminder to click through, even if you’re not reading, just to help out the beat writers you like, since clicks=$$$ for publications):

    For weeks, coaches and agents with a vested interest in the Knicks’ search have viewed Tom Thibodeau as the most likely candidate for the job. There has been some legitimate internal support for Kenny Atkinson as well. Atkinson was among the last candidates to interview for the opening. Jason Kidd and Mike Woodson are also highly regarded by influential people at Madison Square Garden.

    Nothing new here, but the phrasing suggests Atkinson is at least still in contention. Which brings us to what Wetbandit just wrote:

    Just want to say, looks like Rose is a “get the best guys for the job” kind of guy with all these hires. Best capologist, best young executive, etc. Dont know if any of these guys deserve the rep, but at least it looks good. Even the analytics dude seems like a smart guy.

    There could definitely be an argument made that Thibs is the smartest and/or best guy available, particularly if he’s learned lessons from what happened in Minnesota, and at the end of his time with the Bulls. It could still be cronyism, but all the front office hires have not gone according to a cronyistic MO. (Perry kind of qualifies, but at this point, that seems more like Rose leaving him as a placeholder whose weaknesses will be diminished by surrounding him with smart guys, and then riding out the last year of his contract before deciding if Aller or somebody else should just take over as GM.)

    All of which is to say, I am once again very stupidly talking myself into a new Knicks regime. Please stop me, guys.

  190. Yeah, there is a distinct Moneyball 2 feel to some of these recent hires and it’s actually piqued my interest. I don’t remember us signing any wunderkinds before. Maybe they are just pandering to the stat nerds but it seems like something positive.

    Of course, there lots of thing floating around Twitter about the need for veteran presence too.

    They can’t be worse than Mills.

  191. The hardest part of accepting the new regime is the deleterious relationship Dolan and the Knicks FO had with CAA in the past. However, Rose has done absolutely nothing to suggest that he has an agenda separate and apart from turning the franchise into a perennial winner. Hiring the best people is part of that process. It doesn’t guarantee success, but it’s a sound process.

    Rose has the benefit of inheriting the best situation a Knicks POBO/GM has been presented with in years. Surplus draft picks, a couple of promising young prospects, no albatross contracts, no “moles” like Mills to sabotage his methodology. It’s totally his baby to screw up. It’s as close to a blank slate as you can get.

    Sooner or later though, he has to make the big decisions…who to coach, who to draft, who to sign as FAs, who to trade for…so all of this stuff is fluff until then. And then there’s the element of luck…ping pong balls, injuries, etc.

    But every arrow is pointing up right now. Even the most cynical among us has to acknowledge that.

    This is all conjecture but that’s all we have right now. Let’s assume that Rose winds up hiring Thibs. If nothing else, Thibs knew that he had competition for the job, and that Rose gave himself a crash course on modern coaching philosophy by thoroughly screening a bunch of highly regarded young candidates, and that he will have analytics gurus and capologists attending to every move . If Rose’s methodology thus far is any indication, it seems logical that he would expect Thibs to accept the validity of things like minutes restrictions, 3pt shooting, etc., maybe even make it a pre-condition for being hired. It also might help in negotiating a reasonable contract for Thibs, rather than just handing him top dollar based on name recognition.

    Put another way, it sounds as if Thibs will need to do more than just be a former Rose client to land the job.

  192. In Begley’s story about Craig Robinson’s departure (and this is your periodic reminder to click through, even if you’re not reading, just to help out the beat writers you like

    Was the empty link intentional?

    Please stop me, guys.

    Your subconscious is on the right track. Trust your gut.

  193. It is hard to quantify how horrific of an influence Mills has been over the years. What a shame it took Dolan so long to figure it out. It is a bit curious that Rose is keeping Perry around, though.

  194. Looked at some of RJ’s college highlights again, and it really does seem like his passing is overstated, partially thanks to Zion being able to go up and come down with most any lob RJ would throw.

    So what can RJ do?

    He can go left — a lot. He was pretty good at making an outside shot after a screen-curl left. He also worked that “bully” drive going left and got a lot of foul calls — despite the fact that he’s not particularly fast nor can he get very vertical.

    When he went right, it wasn’t awful, but it wasn’t good either (he mostly ended up finishing with his left anyway.)

    He’s also very good on the break — from grabbing the board to leading the break to finishing — but good teams in the NBA don’t let teams run amok like Duke did against college kids.

    So I guess this is a long way of saying RJ needs to fix his shot to eventually become an above-average player, and he shouldn’t have to be the main ballhandler either. He needs a primary passer and shooters around him, but he also needs to be one of those shooters (eventually) even if he’s just more of a midrange guy.

    It seems like they will go after Ball, but Haliburton would seemingly be a nice fit with RJ, particularly because you can always shift both of them to SG and SF, respectively, if that works better and/or they also find a penetrating point guard. If they keep their picks and don’t move up, I could see a Hali/Jalen Smith/Riller group working nicely around RJ.

  195. Rose has the benefit of inheriting the best situation a Knicks POBO/GM has been presented with in years. Surplus draft picks, a couple of promising young prospects, no albatross contracts, no “moles” like Mills to sabotage his methodology. It’s totally his baby to screw up.

    Yes, this is definitely the cleanest slate yet. I still think Jackson had a prime opportunity to rebuild, but 2015 was a godawful draft, 2016 was paid in full to Masai, and he squandered 2017 and 2018 on scrubs while throwing bags of money at the very best role players that 2011 had to offer.

    Like Jackson, Rose will have to take the L if he can’t turn this into a 45-win team by 2023. I don’t expect anything more than that, given that our best player plays a position that some teams fill well with the vet’s minimum, and our “most intriguing” ball-handling prospect might be DeMar DeRozan in the era of Doncic and Young.

  196. It is a bit curious that Rose is keeping Perry around, though.

    It’s not the move I’d have made. (Though I also wouldn’t have hired Rose to begin with.) But Perry is slightly below average, rather than outright incompetent, and there are a few things he’s been pretty good at, like negotiating trades. Meanwhile, none of the brainiacs Rose has surrounded him with have been GMs before, and Perry has one year to go on his contract. With a team very far from contention, there’s some logic to leaving the established mediocrity in place to handle some of the things the newbies don’t yet know how to do, while also leaning much more on their counsel, then deciding a year from now who Rose’s real GM will be.

  197. That thread sure is a trip.

    We’re probably going to sign Melo because he has a good reputation around the league whereas ours is in absolute tatters after Phil Jackson, the Oakley situation, not releasing a BLM statement and then releasing a statement with a shitty justification for not releasing an original statement, and general Knicksiness. I would imagine Leon Rose wants to do something about that and he views signing Melo as a start.

    Sucks, but it is what it is. Hopefully he’ll take more of a mentorship ro–hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha who am I kidding?

  198. and our “most intriguing” ball-handling prospect might be DeMar DeRozan in the era of Doncic and Young.

    And this might be an optimistic projection :(

    DeRozan has been able to be reasonably productive without much of a 3PT shot and I just don’t see how that happens for RJ. Their games are somewhat similar but the major caveat is that DeRozan is a really strong finisher around the basket and RJ…isn’t. He’ll improve in that area but probably won’t reach DeRozan’s level

    I don’t think you can justify making RJ a primary ball handler, his passing is more “good for a non-primary ball handler” than anything else. So it really is going to boil down to the jump shot, I think.

    I’m rooting hard for RJ because he comes across as a great guy, I like his moxie on the court, and I genuinely believe all the stuff we hear about how hard he works. It’s becoming a heart leans one way, brain leans another situation for me though.

  199. Are there actually any printed rumors that Melo is being considered? He is actually the Blazers starting small forward at this point and I wouldn’t be surprised if they want to keep him for next year too

  200. Berman and several other beat writers have written in print that they assume Melo will be on the team next year for a farewell tour. This could be informed speculation by all of them, or it could be them assuming — understandably so — that the new Knicks regime will operate in the same fashion as all the previous ones, and thus do favors to big names and whatnot.

  201. My wildly over optimistic hope for RJ is that he can become a Paul Pierce type player. And before this board erupts, I’m only using Pierce as a comparison because he seemed to do everything in slow motion (like RJ) and wasn’t what you would call a super athletic leaper, just a really, really smart player who maximized his skills.

    Now of course Pierce had a deadly mid range shot and was a pretty good 3 point shooter as well, and RJ obviously has a LONG way to go to get to that level. But a boy can dream……

  202. The front office could have Hawking, Einstein, Warren Buffett, and the last 7 Nobel Prize winning Economists & Physicists, or any other big brain time people you like, it wouldn’t matter because Dolan can still go over their heads to sign-and-trade for DeRozan on a mega-max deal.

    I’ll believe the hype when I see it.

  203. wow, that 2016 thread was definitely a trip (now I’m really curious to see how many different posters names I remember, and how many details of them I can recall)…since I started posting in 2017 or so mike k really hasn’t dropped in a bunch…

    I think I understand why now…

    must be a little weird to start something up for yourself to gather like minded folks who enjoy discussing player performance in a much more analytical light…

    and then, have it all devolve in to nerd fights…

    I don’t know – maybe not perfect (nothing ever is), but to me still the best collection of thinkers discussing sports (and stuff)…glad you all are knick fans…

  204. Berman and several other beat writers

    hi al, you seem very familiar with the different writers covering the knicks…right now I mostly just check though knicks bleacher report to check on knicks stuff – any suggestions for site’s (not just stat sites) where the writing is best (real gm?)…

    any specific beat writers to follow?

  205. I’d argue that Rose is doomed from the start because Dolan still owns the team and will still be dictating a timeline, no matter what the situation is. Unless everything breaks exactly right, we’ll be doing this same ‘new FO’ dance in..

    what year did you say? 2023? That sounds right? I’ve lost all track of time. Turns out today is Tuesday! If you, like I, were unaware of that, you are most welcome.

  206. The thing about RJ is that he’s better than Frank and he’s 2 years younger. It is obvious he’ll develop into a shining example of a two-way player, if the coaching staff can be bothered to believe in him and coach him correctly.

  207. any specific beat writers to follow?

    Mike Vorkunov at The Athletic is by far the best, but he’s also behind a paywall (which I pay for, because I believe in supporting good journalism). Ian Begley is the best and most plugged-in of the rest. Berman is annoying but also useful in that he often functions as a front office mouthpiece, so you can read the tea leaves more easily if you follow his stuff and tweets.

  208. I mean, RJ is probably as close to Joe Ingles athletically as he is to DeRozan (maybe meeting in the middle at Rudy Gay?) so he should probably play SF because he’s strong enough and has good length to make up for his 6’6″ height.

    He shot .320 from three, which is a solid improvement from his college number of .308. Kawhi wasn’t a good three-point shooter in college but improved pretty quickly, as one example. I think there’s definitely hope for RJ as a shooter (as opposed to say, Frank).

    Pierce would be a real tippy top-end comp, I suppose, but prime Pierce was a totally different era. I’m also rooting for RJ, as he seems like a good kid, but he’s gonna need a lot of help.

  209. If RJ is still playing mostly shooting guard next year, we will know that the current Rose experiment is not off to a great start. That dude clearly needs to be a three.

  210. I think Rose has a good shot at success compared to our past GM’s of the last few years bc he’s all ready starting ahead of them. Phil took over a situation where we still didn’t have first round picks every other year. Mills and Perry took over a team with KP but it still had Melo and Noah on the books and 2 years of KP’s rookie contract had been wasted.

    Rose is taking over with two decent pieces that we can hopefully pencil in as plus starters (RJ and Mitch), all of our future first round picks plus some additional first round picks (3 extra) and a clean cap situation for the most part. So if Dolan can just give Rose even just say 2 more seasons to keep rebuilding, we could be in a very nice spot. And even if they want to jump start and be more competitive next season, we could theoretically do that and not mortgage the future too much.

    So I’m reasonably optimistic that Rose will have success. At some point, shit has to turn around for us.

  211. Berman and several other beat writers have written in print that they assume Melo will be on the team next year for a farewell tour. This could be informed speculation by all of them, or it could be them assuming — understandably so — that the new Knicks regime will operate in the same fashion as all the previous ones, and thus do favors to big names and whatnot.

    Thanks, Al. I guess it could be so, but it just doesn’t compute to me. You hire sharp analytical minds into your front office and you have a rebuilding team, but then you hire a 37 year old player for sentimental reasons?

  212. So I’m reasonably optimistic that Rose will have success. At some point, shit has to turn around for us.

    hahahaha…i know right, i keep thinking that year after year…the depth of of our bad play has to eventually turn around…i mean statistically it’s an anomaly that we’ve been this bad for this long…

    probability must finally come to our aid at some point…

  213. I get the Pierce comparison from a fluidity/athleticism/mentality perspective. But Pierce was a much more refined offensive player right from the get-go. The dude could just shoot. Really pure hand and arm action. He could pull up from 3 or could post up and take that deadly midrange fadeaway with that high release point. RJ just looks very clunky on his jumper and FTs, almost like he has no touch. He’s still young, but the shooting form just doesn’t look like he will ever be able to be efficient at a high usage.

    On the other hand, RJ is one of the strongest 19yo’s I’ve ever seen. Guys just bounce off of him. He should keep bulking up and become a terrorizing defensive force, rebounder and more of a transition player/point forward on O who can hit spot-up 3’s and get to the line on hard drives. Maybe become a Mase-DeRozan-Pierce hybrid of sorts. But his strength is what stands out to me.

  214. Melo at a minimum salary is a whole different argument than Melo as a max-level centerpiece. I wouldn’t do it, but it’s pretty inconsequential.

  215. Even at the minimum Melo is a bad option, that means we cut Trier to bring back a less efficient offensive player, who plays defense at about the same level Trier does anyways, and manages to be even more of a black hole on offense.

    Melo is probably the worst player in the league right now, save for Knox and even there it’s close. At least Knox is on the right side of 21… and 30… and 35

  216. Early Bird: Even at the minimum Melo is a bad option, that means we cut Trier to bring back a less efficient offensive player, who plays defense at about the same level Trier does anyways, and manages to be even more of a black hole on offense.

    I don’t get the Melo-Trier connection, there will be plenty of roster spots open after the season ends and they play different positions. And as a PR move, Melo still has a fan base in NY, lots of 20-somethings have Melo jerseys in their kiddie-cloths boxes. My point is that he would have no bearing on building a contender, it would be strictly a farewell tour kind of thing.

  217. I will say one thing for Leon Rose and World Wide Wes; when CAA was running the Knicks they were literally the best they’ve been in two decades, and then when Steve Mills and Phil Jackson took over it was more of the same. It seems like the Knicks, with the influence of William Wesley, could be headed in the right direction, and I think we’ll know a ton after this off season about who those guys will be.

    Also, RJ Barrett will be fine. He’s built like a truck for his age and is self aware enough to know where he needs work. He’s a higher IQ player than people around this board give him credit for, and his teammates (Payton, Randle, and Morris specifically) did him zero favors when they froze him out of the game nightly. I’m not as eager to make a projection for him, but he’s maybe the same caliber prospect as Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum. Brown is the best athlete and Tatum is the most polished, but I think Barrett has the upper hand in basketball IQ, strength, and possibly leadership. I’d look for him to build his game around slashing, play making, and eventually knocking down jumpers when left open.

    He’ll be fine. Just get him some shooters and guys who won’t ignore him every time he’s open.

  218. The Glass Half Rebuilt: I’m not as eager to make a projection for him, but he’s maybe the same caliber prospect as Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum. Brown is the best athlete and Tatum is the most polished, but I think Barrett has the upper hand in basketball IQ, strength, and possibly leadership. I’d look for him to build his game around slashing, play making, and eventually knocking down jumpers when left open.

    Maybe. He’s got a looooooooong way to go to catch up with those two on offense, but I agree that he has strengths that they don’t have. He’s gotta get his 3PT% and FT% up to respectable levels.

  219. Melo and Trier essentially play the same position, which is “scorer who does nothing else.”

    One of them actually does that job fairly efficiently, and the other one doesn’t.

  220. The DeRozan comparison to RJ is a bit lazy to me because RJ actually looks to shoot 3pters. Its not just that DeRozan sucks at shooting them, he doesnt even try. DeRozan attempts 1.5 per games for his career, RJ took 3.5 per game last year on a team that took the 2nd fewest in the league. 32% is not good but it’s something you can build off especially if the Knicks actually start encouraging players to shoot 3pters. DeRozan for his career is just a 28% 3pt shooter.

  221. …but DeRozan is much better from the charity stripe. Would be great if RJ could fix that ASAP.

  222. I’m excited about RJ. His free throw percentage is really bad but it got better after the first month of the season. IF he can get it up to 75 to 80 percent, he gets to the line pretty often. That’s an extra point or two a game for him right there that he’s leaving on the table every game.

    I like that he isn’t super athletic. One thing that I found to be a weird knock on him (not on this blog) is that his body was all ready “NBA Ready” ie, he didn’t really hit a wall too bad and could handle a large number of minutes out of the gate. On P and T some people used this as a strike against him thinking it meant his body had nowhere else to go. But I don’t see that. He will get bigger and stronger still.

    And the fact that he did take so many 3’s…if he can up that percentage to something decent…now he’s a much more efficient player.

    I like his demeanor and maturity. I think RJ won’t be a superstar or the alpha dog on a contending team. But I can see him being the heart and/or brains of a contending team and being a good second/third fiddle on a contending team.

    Coaching him and Mitch up (along with our pick this year) is priority one. Frank, Knox, etc…it would be gravy if they turned into plus rotation players too. But if RJ and Mitch (and our pick this year) can truly be plus starters for us, we are on our way.

  223. I like that he isn’t super athletic.

    This is one of the weirder statements I’ve seen on this board.

  224. I don’t get the Melo-Trier connection, there will be plenty of roster spots open after the season ends

    I don’t think this is really the case. We will need at least three point guards, Barrett, Robinson, Iggy, Randle, Knox, three new draft choices, a back up two, a back up center. That’s already 13, and we need another back up two, and probably one or two more big men. This means we only keep maybe two of our expiring contracts even before adding Melo.

  225. I like that he isn’t super athletic.

    I think that would have read better as just, “I like that his body hasn’t finished developing.”

  226. The Honorable Cock Jowles: This is one of the weirder statements I’ve seen on this board.

    The only spin that makes sense is that he likes that RJ has to use his noggin rather than just his athleticism to succeed. Sort of saying he’s glad he isn’t Wiggins or DSjr.

    Obviously the two traits aren’t mutually exclusive, so yeah, it’s a strange statement.

  227. The only spin that makes sense is that he likes that RJ has to use his noggin rather than just his athleticism to succeed. Sort of saying he’s glad he isn’t Wiggins or DSjr.

    Obviously the two traits aren’t mutually exclusive, so yeah, it’s a strange statement.

    He’s saying that he likes that Barrett is still growing, so there is room for him to develop physically and he isn’t already at his peak athleticism. It was just phrased rather oddly.

  228. “This is what I want to see out of a rookie

    [cries inconsolably]”

    But he missed both dunks !lol
    ;-)

  229. @ChrisIseman

    Nets announce they’ve signed Lance Thomas as a substitute player for the remainder of the season

  230. Two (of a number of) reasons Melo’s return is a bad idea.

    He’s not going to want a farewell tour to be waving from the bench. He’s going to want to play 25+ minutes a game. If you don’t play him that much it’s bad optics and will be a tedious news story all year long. So he’ll suck time from RJ at the 3, or from Mitch at the 5 (if our remaining 4s end up playing center to make room for Melo). I’d say also taking time away from seeing if Knox got any better, but I find that a difficult argument to make.

    And I’m pretty sure that his idea of a farewell tour is not going to be about emulating LeBron’s latest point forward passing magic. He’ll be lofting terrible shots over Mitch and RJ’s wide-open rolls again and again. I have less than zero interest in (re)living that.

  231. Brian Cronin: He’s saying that he likes that Barrett is still growing, so there is room for him to develop physically and he isn’t already at his peak athleticism. It was just phrased rather oddly.

    But wouldn’t it be better to be super athletic AND still developing? Even if he meant what you said, isn’t that true about ANY 19yo? It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to view not being super-athletic as a positive in any sense.

  232. But wouldn’t it be better to be super athletic AND still developing? Even if he meant what you said, isn’t that true about ANY 19yo? It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to view not being super-athletic as a positive in any sense.

    Yeah, I’m not saying it’s some great point. ;)

  233. Re: Barrett…at no. 3…would have liked a bona fide superstar aka Zion or Ja…I don’t see him getting there unless he becomes a great shooter…he appears to be a serviceable ball player but this sorry team needed more than that…

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