NY Post: Superagent Rich Paul lays out Mitchell Robinson, Knicks vision

Some interesting stuff from Mitchell Robinson’s new agent, Rich Paul (it is kind of weird that Mitch is on his fifth professional agent, right?) about the Knicks’ best player:

“His growth comes with understanding how to play the game at this level,’’ Paul said. “That’s what’s misunderstood with young players. At this level, talent will get you only so far. You have to understand schemes defensively, very detailed things like the art of setting screens, the art in decision-making as a big man in how you roll. What passes to look for, proper defensive adjustments.

“It’s a lot of things to learn. Once he’s able to learn those things, he’ll then be in position to showcase other talents he has. He can take the outside shot, put the ball on the floor, post. You don’t want to rush into that. You have to understand the details of the game first.”

Liked it? Take a second to support Brian Cronin on Patreon!

505 thoughts to “NY Post: Superagent Rich Paul lays out Mitchell Robinson, Knicks vision”

  1. I assume most of the players are working out in a gym somewhere in the same way they would in the off season. It’s kind of a blessing in disguise for very young players to have the extra time to work on their handle, shot, FTs, and watch film etc… Hopefully we’ll see more progress from Mitch and the rest of the Knicks “if” the season ever resumes this year. If not, next year. I love Mitch as a prospect, but I’d hate to see him limited to dunks and put backs long term because he has no handle or shot. I’d like to see him become more of an option and tougher to shut down because he can do more things.

  2. Z-man: I rarely bring up Frank to gloat

    Respectfully, sir, I disagree.

    But one of the “smart people” on this blog once gave me great advice… “the drag queens have a great expression for this: let the girl live her fantasy.”

  3. Let’s be real, the young players who should be practicing are instead mango juuling and surfing TikTok for the latest insufferable memes

  4. How’s this for a wild idea…

    Facilitate a 3 team trade with Utah and Washington that includes Randle and Gobert with Wall coming to the Knicks. Way’ment now..I know Wall is probably closer to washed than not, but hear my reasoning first before you laugh me off the site lol.

    1. Wall is younger than Chris Paul, and not too old that he can’t get himself back to 85-ish percent at least. The kid was really good when healthy.
    2. We’d be taking advantage of 2 things. The alleged Gobert- Mitchell rift, and the combination of salary and injury with Wall. You know what that means? PICKS PICKS PICKS! I feel like we should be able to extract multiple firsts from the Wiz. Also, anything Wall gives us is a bonus if it helps us space the floor, get Mitch in a space where he can operate, and gets RJ the ball more. Besides, if Wall can’t get back, we can just give him the H20 retirement package

    It’s a wild one. But it might be worth investigating

  5. Wait, isn’t that a line from Jon Stewart’s cameo in Half Baked?

    “You ever pitch a trade for an athleticism-first volume-scoring PG who just ruptured his Achilles while already recovering from a season-ending heel surgery and is still owed $130,000,000 over the next three seasons on the grounds that he’s younger than a top-3 all-time point guard and might be so bad that you’ll get more lottery picks from paying him 40% of your salary cap space… on weed?

  6. Totes McGoats as Totes McGoats: Facilitate a 3 team trade with Utah and Washington that includes Randle and Gobert with Wall coming to the Knicks.

    No way, man. John Wall sucks.

    But you brought up Paul… Totally different scenario, and one I’m even more willing to bet on now than before. With all the wear he saved on this season being truncated, it’s fair to expect him to be able to come close to this season’s production over the next two seasons. Maybe it only comes in bits and spurts over 60 games instead of 80, but I’m ok with that.

    When I was watching that Knicks Heat game 5, by the way, I realized that Patrick Ewing was 3 months away from his 37th birthday. Yeah, he was nowhere near his peak. But he was far from washed.

    I will take Chris Paul’s age 35 and 36 seasons at $40mm, provided we are willing to do smart things around that, the way the Thunder did. We’d still have half the salary cap to make smart deals with.

    Think of it this way: the Knicks are a hospital with a mask shortage, and Chris Paul is an N95 mask at a 300% markup. Is it good value in vaccum? No. But I can get enough value from him to justify the cost.

  7. The worst part of both options is that they kill our cap space for a long time. However, given what Knicks management typically does with cap space, I’m not sure that would be a disaster in practice. Assuming we get enough assets for taking on one of those contracts, it could be a deal I would get behind, at least for Paul. (It’s hard to imagine a deal good enough to make me want to take on Wall’s contract). People here have often advocated taking on bad contracts for money. I’m not sure how this is different except that here we also receive usable players (even though overpaid)

  8. ***Rich Paul has an odd way of promoting his client.***

    Seriously. He sounds like a high school coach explaining to a parent why he’s not playing their son.

  9. I’m all about getting back more picks but we do have a surplus of first round picks now. Including this year’s draft we have 8 first round picks over the next 5 years. I’m not sure if the strategy should be to continue to stockpile picks at this point ESPECIALLY if it means taking on a hugely onerous contract like John Wall. With CP3 at least he can still play but its still a lot to take on.

    IMO, we might actually be in a position now to make a trade for a disgruntled star with all of our extra picks. I’m not advocating a clear the cupboard for Melo type trade BUT we could do a trade for a star and not gut our roster or clear out all of our picks. Remember we all ready were thin on picks when we traded for Melo cause we had used some to clear cap space for 2010.

    We are in a very different scenario now cause we have these team options we can decline to open up cap space. We have an expiring contract now with Randle, who despite his warts is a young player with useful skills that team might want to take on (and could pick up a team option on if he worked out for them).

    So, I don’t know. Just spitballing something crazy here but we could make a play for AD this summer and do a trade for Donovan Mitchell. The Lakers were definitely title contenders but now the playoffs may not happen and even if they do, they will be weird. Lebron is still Lebron but he is getting older. Without Lebron, then its AD carrying the load completely on a team without a lot of future building assets. Coronavirus might have totally changed his way of thinking. We could renounce the team options and find a trade for Randle and sign AD outright to a max. Then trade a handful of our picks for Donovan. Would love to do that without giving up RJ obviously.

  10. Um, John Wall? Please, no. You can maybe talk me into Paul if a boatload of picks come with him and you can offload Randle somewhere.
    :-)

  11. On Mitch’s instagram he’s destroying dudes in the gym off the dribble which is funny because in the NBA he can’t dribble more than once.

  12. Rest assured that no matter how many picks are there, they’ll be liquidated for whatever disgruntled flashy volume scorer that hits the market before the All-Star Break next year or the year after. Beal, Booker, Mitchell, McCollum? Hell, could add LaVine and Collin Sexton to the mix before long.

    It’s weird that Buddy Hield started just two-thirds of his games this season but still managed to be 15th in FGA.

  13. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    Wait, isn’t that a line from Jon Stewart’s cameo in Half Baked?

    “You ever pitch a trade for an athleticism-first volume-scoring PG who just ruptured his Achilles while already recovering from a season-ending heel surgery and is still owed $130,000,000 over the next three seasons on the grounds that he’s younger than a top-3 all-time point guard and might be so bad that you’ll get more lottery picks from paying him 40% of your salary cap space… on weed?

    lolololololololololol

  14. Hubert: When I was watching that Knicks Heat game 5, by the way, I realized that Patrick Ewing was 3 months away from his 37th birthday. Yeah, he was nowhere near his peak. But he was far from washed.

    That’s funny, I thought he limped his way through game 5 vs. Miami, had a TS% of .470 vs. the Hawks in 27 mpg and partially tore his achilles during the Indiana series. Then in 1999-2000, he was paid $15 mill (top-5 in the NBA) to put up at or below league-average advanced numbers. If that isn’t washed, I don’t know what is.

    Not saying Paul is the same case, just correcting that perception.

  15. Hubert: Respectfully, sir, I disagree.

    But one of the “smart people” on this blog once gave me great advice… “the drag queens have a great expression for this: let the girl live her fantasy.”

    I’ll give you a freebee on this one out of deference to Mike Honcho and his all-seeing eye.

  16. Jowles, just curious. You usually poo-poo any trade scenario for any star.

    Given The Knicks asset situation and cap flexibility situation, what is trade that you would be ok with or who is a young, rising talent that you would want? Is Donovan Mitchell no good for you? Is there a realistic trade that we could put together that you would like?

    I mean, we could potentially trade 3 first round picks and still have 5 over the next 5 years. To me that is very different than trading our last remaining picks for Melo.

    I wouldn’t want Beal but Mitchell, given his age, I think could be compelling. You seem to be on the conservative side when it comes to making any trades for upgrades. I know you’re gonna say win curve, but at some point shouldn’t we try to upgrade at least to a place where we have one bona fide young star on the team? I mean Donovan and Robinson sounds like a pretty good place to start as far as building a young team.

    Who are some young players you would trade for and what would you give up that is reasonable without emptying the cupboard. We’ve been shitty for a long time now. We are in a position that is pretty good pick wise and cap wise. At what point do you start to make some moves?

  17. Given The Knicks asset situation and cap flexibility situation, what is trade that you would be ok with or who is a young, rising talent that you would want?

    Luka Doncic, Zion Williamson, Ja Morant. Obviously I’d take guys like Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Brandon Clarke for lesser assets.

    I wouldn’t want Beal but Mitchell, given his age, I think could be compelling.

    Beal’s a good player. Not elite, but good. How does his team look around him? Because that’s what he’d be joining here. And anyone you draft is going to be on the rise when he’s on his decline. Basically, the w–

    I know you’re gonna say win curve, but

    …in curve says that we’re not in a position to do anything except wait for the superstar talent to show up via draft or trade. We’re talking Luka Doncic-level superstar, not a Donovan Mitchell (who is, again, good, but not a superstar, not close to the likes of, say, a James Harden, who is still unable to get his team to the Finals given how stacked the league’s best teams are).

    Who are some young players you would trade for and what would you give up that is reasonable without emptying the cupboard.

    Again, who’s available? If Doncic is available for 2 unprotected firsts, two pick swaps and literally anyone on the roster, yeah! Sign me up! If you’re giving up legit assets for a Donovan Mitchell, you fucked up.

    We’ve been shitty for a long time now.

    Being shitty feels like it’s binary, but it’s not. See, the Knicks have been shitty — but not shitty enough. Or perhaps shitty on the court, but somehow shittier off of it.

    Describe to me the implications of this game, and then ask me again why the Knicks have been so bad but unable to improve their lot via the draft. Seriously, tell me what happened as a result of this one game.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202003110ATL.html

  18. If you’re trading for Wall with the expectation that he’ll provide value on the court, then that is a big mistake. He’s probably done as a Top-15 starting PG, and may miss a ton of time with debilitating leg injuries. He makes $41m, $44m, and $47m over the next three seasons.

    That said, if the Wiz offer a load of picks to take him, it’s worth considering. The Knicks are not close to any kind of success right now. If we have to saddle ourselves with Wall to re-stock the cupboard with a bunch of picks from a talent-poor Wizards team, that could be part of a good long term strategy.

  19. A three-year plan where we take on Wall is less onerous than you might think. The Knicks are for sure going to be bad next year. The 2020 free agent class stinks AND the 2020 draft stinks. We will not be meaningfully improved next season.

    The next season we are likely to be bad as well. Our young core is still far away from making a jump. Incremental improvements by Mitch, RJ, the 2020 pick, Frank (maybe), and Knox (probably not) might get us into the 32-win range. Unless some big 2021 free agent wants to join that middling team, that’s where we’ll be stuck.

    The earliest, then, that Wall’s contract would interfere in our success would be the free agent summer of 2022, when he’ll have one year left. I’ll take a one-year setback due to bloated but expiring contract if we are getting a bunch of unprotected picks from the Wiz.

  20. Washington doesn’t have a load of surplus pick to offer, so I can’t see why they would dump Wall with sweetener unless they have a rockin’ FA signing in the works, which seems unlikely.

    Speaking of Washington, anyone like Davis Bertans as a UFA target? Great 3-pt shooting on high volume, sort of like a more athletic Novakaine. Or are Latvians not in the cards post-KP fiasco?

  21. If Miller had been the coach the entire season we would have won 31 games. Now maybe Fiz did have a tougher schedule than Miller but with healthy Elfrid and Miller as the coach, we’re a 28 to 30 win team. That actually would have put us as like the 9th seed in the East. I think our “win curve” is better than we think because the first part of the season was dragged down by Fizdale.

    So the only trade you make is for an absolute elite star? I don’t know. I get what you are saying but if the Raptors didn’t have DeRozan, they can’t trade for Kawhi.

    I guess we have different priorities, which is fine. You seem to only want a team that can win a title. You even say you wouldn’t trade for Harden because he can’t take Houston all the way, which is crazy to me. I wouldn’t trade for Harden but for other reasons (age mainly).

    I want a young, competitive team on the rise. A playoff team. For me, you get to that place where you can win at least 45 to 50 games a year consistently and the math changes. Even your role players…their value rises in potential trades because you’re good, not bad. You become more attractive to free agents. Wily veterans who still have a lot to give off the bench will be more likely to sign for vet minimum’s.

    I’m not just talking about lip service to “changing the culture.” But being respectable, decently good, a young playoff team that can win a first round series. That has 5 or 6 years of being that caliber of a team ahead of them…that would be a HUGE win for this franchise in my opinion. There is always this hope that The Garden and NYC can be a reason a player comes here. But it won’t be as long as we are bad. But if we are good, even just decently good and not a real contender, to me that factor of being in NYC and The Garden becomes much more of an advantage.

    A Mitchell trade doesn’t have to be a cap crippling/no more picks.

    And I guess going back to my first post. Would you do a trade if you also could…

  22. According to the Trade Machine, if the Knicks trade Randle, Gibson, and Ellington to Washington for John Wall, it projects that BOTH teams will lose ten additional games. Subtraction by addition and subtraction?

  23. Mitchell would be preferable but I don’t think Utah trades him for anything but a stoopid package unless they are convinced that he will not take a mega-max deal there.

    I think there’s going to be a lot of opportunity for teams with cap space in the next few years. More good players are coming in than going out, and without expansion, roster space is going to get tight. Lots of good players are going to get dealt, bought out or waived. Others will get less than they expected (as long as the guys who signed Bobby Portis, Taj Gibson and Wayne Ellington aren’t setting the market!)

    Let’s see if Rose has the balls to wait teams out. The first deal/signing or two should be telling.

  24. I get what you are saying but if the Raptors didn’t have DeRozan, they can’t trade for Kawhi.

    C’mon now. Kawhi was, at the time of the trade, a top 5 player in the league, perhaps top 3. Are you really advocating for carrying a bloated contract for a midrange dinosaur in the unlikely event that a true superstar, in the midst of his prime, demands to be traded for reasons totally unrelated to winning?

    Let’s also remember that the Raptors had a 59-win core. You bet your ass that if the Knicks ever have a 59-win squad and can acquire an All-NBA 1st Teamer at any cost to future flexibility, I will co-sign that deal eight days a week.

    The Kawhi deal was a heist on the level of Pau Gasol-to-the-Lakers. But it was the result of incredible luck and a disciplined approach to team-building. The Knicks don’t make their own luck like that. Haven’t in twenty years. I’m genuinely not coming after you with this reference, but the Knicks followed up their strong 2012-13 performance by trading multiple draft picks for Andrea Bargnani. That’s not something that Masai would have done following the best season in Raptors history.

    You even say you wouldn’t trade for Harden because he can’t take Houston all the way, which is crazy to me.

    No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that even with a player of Harden’s caliber, the Rockets have failed to even reach the Finals. How do you think Beal would fare? Booker? (Note that neither of those “superstars” are leading teams anywhere close to a playoff slot.

    I’m not a championship-or-bust guy. I too want a playoff team with young players. I just don’t want the team’s ceiling to be 45 wins and a first-round exits, followed by desperation trades to kick us up to 48 wins and maybe a 2nd-round sweep exit.

  25. I’d be against any Wall or Paul trade (unless some extreme deal was offered),

    Finding a young superstar is going to be a difficult task. In the mean time it’s OK to try to accumulate more picks and/or good young players via trade or free agency. The hope is they eventually lead to a superstar 1-3 years from now.

    Being bad has been part of our problem. We have to keep making incremental value oriented improvements to get ourselves into a position to be both attractive to any available star players and have the players/picks to get a deal done if it happens by trade.

    We have been putting lousy players at inflated salaries into our cap space and then letting them walk (rinse repeat) because no star players want to come to a bad team in NY and because our management is too incompetent to recognize a decent value.

  26. Utah is a top 10 team, they’re not trading a 23 year old all star, least of all to a team with one good player.

  27. I’d be totally OK with Paul if assets came back with him. I wouldn’t puke if we just traded even up for him with Randle and other assorted garbage. But giving up anything of value for him would not bode well for Knicks fans under the Rose administration.

  28. I’m not just talking about lip service to “changing the culture.” But being respectable, decently good, a young playoff team that can win a first round series. That has 5 or 6 years of being that caliber of a team ahead of them…that would be a HUGE win for this franchise in my opinion.

    Right. And I’m telling you that you’re not going to get that by trading the farm for Brad Beal. You’re going to get that by avoiding the bonafide scrubs we’ve drafted in the lottery for three consecutive years. And you’re going to get that by making organizational decisions like telling your head coach that there is no circumstance in which he should be playing for a meaningless W against the Hawks, one that had the potential to fuck up your lottery slot, but became especially egregious when the season ended abruptly. Go back to 2018 when the 29-win Knicks were separated from the Mavericks by 5 wins in a draft when the teenage Euroleague MVP was not expected to be a top-2 pick.

    Do you know how good the Knicks would look if they had tanked harder in the last three or four years? We got unlucky last year but the previous years’ shitty lottery showing were the result of catastrophic mismanagement on and off the court. Everyone in the Knicks’ front office and on the coaching staff should have been fired after the Ndour game winner, but instead we got more years of stupidity, winning late-season games at the expense of a better chance at top lottery pick.

    Stop and consider that the Mavericks are going to be a playoff team for a solid decade without even trying.

  29. Kawhi was a weird situation but the larger point that disgruntled superstars want to be traded pretty much every year in the NBA stands. And if you have a good, young player like Donovan on your roster then that player can be the centerpiece in a star trade. Also, Donovan may not be the alpha superstar who leads a team but he could be the second fiddle guy, right?

    I’m just saying I wouldn’t outright say “no” to a Donovan trade just because he isn’t the top elite superstar category. He’s young as far as starts in the league go. He can get better and more efficient. He’s only 23 years old and its a top 5 to 10 shooting guard in the league. To me its all about what do you give up to get him and is there room to pair him with another good player, which we’d be able to do in theory.

  30. The Honorable Cock Jowles: You’re going to get that by avoiding the bonafide scrubs we’ve drafted in the lottery for three consecutive years.

    …and maybe once in this millennium moving up in the draft lottery instead of down…

  31. Going to chime in from my day job where a barrel of WTI oil is currently trading for -35 dollars. It started the day at 17 bucks. Sadly, this is unlikely to mean that people will be paid to fill up their cars the next time they go to the gas station.

    I have had a feeling for years that I would never see a Knicks championship but the world today provided me a sign that anything is possible.

  32. on a positive note:

    – so cal traffic – ain’t that bad at the moment
    – pollution is down all over the place
    – i’m able to work in my underwear
    – my house is cleaner than it has ever been before

  33. geo:
    on a positive note:

    – so cal traffic – ain’t that bad at the moment
    – pollution is down all over the place
    – i’m able to work in my underwear
    – my house is cleaner than it has ever been before

    lol same here in ny!

  34. If we had a chance to get Mitchell imo we’d be foolish to say “no” just because he’s isn’t the kind of elite franchise #1 option that can lead a team to the championship. It’s just a matter of price.

    You generally need 3 all star caliber players to compete at the highest level. If he was one of our 3 players, that would be fine. He’s kind of like KP (though I’d rate KP higher because of rim protection). Neither KP or Mitchell is going to lead you to a championship as the #1 option (unless they get better – which is also a possibility), but you still need #1a, #2 and #3 options to win. What makes Dallas such a hot ticket is not just that they have Doncic. It’s that they also have KP. That makes them 2/3 the way to contention and very young. All they need is a 3rd option, some playoff experience, and some role player filler. They shortened their rebuild by years grabbing KP from us for garbage.

    If you can get one of your big 3, you get him and you pay the salary. Then you try to keep moving forward from there.

  35. >Going to chime in from my day job where a barrel of WTI oil is currently trading for -35 dollars. It started the day at 17 bucks. Sadly, this is unlikely to mean that people will be paid to fill up their cars the next time they go to the gas station.<

    I don't know much about the oil market or futures, but that's screaming that the market is broken. Someone or some entity may be being forced to sell. I don't care how large the glut is or how hard it will be to store excess oil, that's way too extreme to reflect the underlying economic reality. Someone, somewhere, with a 3-5 year outlook is going to find a way to make a lot of money in the oil market going long.

  36. KnickfaninNJ: The worst part of both options is that they kill our cap space for a long time.

    Chris Paul doesn’t kill your cap space, though. The Knicks project to have plenty of space if they don’t lock in all the 1 & 1’s.

    If we have $60mm worth of space, it’s not like you can reasonably expect to do $60mm worth of trades where you give up cap space for assets. There’s maybe 3 trades like that a year, and the competition for them is fierce. You’re lucky if you can get one.

    And I don’t think we need to keep money available for Anthony Davis. So unless Leon Rose unexpectedly decides to go full Process on us, I’m fine with Paul and $20mm worth of space vs $65mm worth of space to use on what we normally use space on.

  37. It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia did an episode where the gang buys a bunch of gas because the price is low and plans to resell it later. Maybe they were onto something. I’m going to fill my bathtub with WTI Crude and use it as a retirement nest egg.

  38. Jowles, you partly retort to me by responding with all of the mistakes draft wise that The Knicks have made, which doesn’t really make sense. We can’t undo Kevin Knox or Frank. And seriously…RJ is a scrub?

    But what we can do is potentially make a good trade for a disgruntled rising star who is only 23 without crippling our cap OR depleting our picks/assets. I keep mentioning Mitchell and you keep responding with Bradley Beal.

    Yes, you are right. If we’d not picked Knox or Frank or had drafted a few slots higher we’d be in a better position now than we are. But we didn’t do those things. I’m focusing on the future, not the past.

    Here is another question for you. Ignore the likelihood of him wanting to come here, would you sign AD right now to a max contract outright? He’s theoretically available and would cost us nothing but cap space. Would you do that despite our win curve?

  39. TheOakmanCometh: I’m going to fill my bathtub with WTI Crude and use it as a retirement nest egg.

    How big is your bath tub? Cuz if you can hold 100,000 barrels of oil, you can retire right now.

  40. If you can get one of your big 3, you get him and you pay the salary. Then you try to keep moving forward from there.

    I don’t disagree with much of what preceded this. I’m probably lower on Mitchell than you are, and I sure as hell ain’t gonna re-litigate KP but besides that stuff I think you were mostly correct until this part.

    Here’s the problem: when you pay for the #3 guy before you have the #1 and #2, that makes it much, much harder (in many cases literally impossible) to get those (more important) pieces.

    It’s not like the Jazz are going to do us a favor and peg Mitchell’s cost to his objective value. His reputation is “23 year old all-star” and thus the price for him is going to reflect that. In your terms, we’d be paying #1 guy money for a #3 guy.

    So we clear out our asset chest to get him, and then next year we have to give him something like 5/$180M. This all happens, again, before we have the players we need to contend with him. So how are we going to get those guys with no trade assets and limited cap flexibility?

    This is basically just a version of your standard win curve argument, but maybe we won’t talk past each other if I frame using a specific situation.

  41. A while back, when Tim Hardaway was here, I noted that his numbers compared reasonably well to Donovan Mitchell. I’m stunned by how much that’s held up:

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Donovan Mitchell&player_id1_select=Donovan Mitchell&player_id1=mitchdo01&player_id2_select=Tim Hardaway Jr.&player_id2=hardati02&idx=players

    Those numbers are frighteningly similar, especially the percentages, which are within .001 in some cases over very large samples. He’s basically Tim Hardaway Jr if Tim Hardaway Jr took 5 more FGAs per 36. Mitchell is a slightly better playmaker, but it’s at the expense of double the turnovers.

    That’s ok on a rookie deal, I guess. But this is not a guy you want on his second contract, and it’s definitely not a guy you give up prime assets for. Please, please no.

  42. “They shortened their rebuild by years grabbing KP from us for garbage.”

    While this may be true the jury is far from out. They may have also hung a huge albatross around their neck. Or as Chico Marx says in “A Night at the Opera in his best Italian immigrant accent, “Hey Stuffy…. Don’t be so glad!”

    KP sat out 10 consecutive games needing a PRP injection on his “good” 24 year old knee. I’ve had lots of horses get PRP injections and they don’t do that for trivial conditions.

    Upon returning from his 10 game hiatus mid season they felt it necessary to manage his load by skipping 6 of the next 24 games after skipping only 1 of the first 32….. so that tells you they are concerned about his long term health as they should be.

    He DID rebound a lot better but playing with a playmaking savant who demands extra attention he shot 3.5 more 3’s a game but made almost 5% LESS than the previous season. He TS% increased by a whole .001 to a very mediocre .540!

    I wouldn’t quite be taking a victory lap with him just yet at 151M

  43. But what we can do is potentially make a good trade for a disgruntled rising star who is only 23 without crippling our cap OR depleting our picks/assets. I keep mentioning Mitchell and you keep responding with Bradley Beal.

    Jowles is responding the way he is because you’re simply ignoring the historical cost of “disgruntled rising star[s] who [are] only 23.” They are pretty much never going to be available unless you’re willing to both cripple your cap to some degree and deplete your asset chest.

    What that means is adding that dude needs to get you pretty damn close to contention right off the bat, even when accounting for the outgoing assets. Adding Donovan Mitchell, and then having to pay him 5/$180M, to this team (minus whatever we’d have to trade to get him i.e. almost certainly RJ and/or Mitch) does not do that. It doesn’t even come close. It doesn’t even make us a playoff team in the East. What it does do is significantly hinder our ability to make further improvements. Worth it?

    Sure, we can have a purely academic debate about the merits of trading for Mitchell in a fake world where the cost is, like, a Dallas pick and Frank Ntilikina or something. Just know that’s all it is–an academic debate.

  44. It seems like I messed up that link, so here it is again:

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Donovan Mitchell&player_id1_select=Donovan Mitchell&player_id1=mitchdo01&player_id2_select=Tim Hardaway Jr.&player_id2=hardati02&idx=players

    Note that 2p%, 3p%, and TS% are each within .001 over a large sample. eFG% clocks in at a whopping .005 disparity.

    This guy is going to kill whatever team extends him. The Jazz are smart to be looking for a sucker now. For once, let it not be us.

  45. geo: i’m able to work in my underwear

    Dude, take the undies off. I added naked Friday to my work week. Positive change.

    If it weren’t so damn cold in NY I might be naked all day, save for the zoom meetings where I don a white collared shirt and nothing else.

    Speaking of the weather, is warmth in quarantine, too? It’s like we locked in the weather that we had at the beginning of the lockdown.

  46. As far as Donovan Mitchell is concerned (or any other player for that matter) There is a price where any player makes sense. DSJr’s value might be the proverbial “warm bucket of spit” but there is an equilibrium price for every asset. TGhere is some price where Mitchell makes sense to the Knicks and it is their managements responsibility to be proactive and see if something THAT MAKES SENSE FOR THEM can be done. If not move on.

    The Knicks should be in the positive asset acquisition business. The have 8 #1 picks in the next 5 drafts plus Mitch and that’s about it for value. Maybe Barrett too but wing players that can’t shoot at all and don’t really excel at anything…. I’m not looking for lot there. I think his “rep” is more valuable than he is.

  47. I’m going to go with a solid “no thanks” on Donovan. I don’t think he’ll ever be worth a max contract barring a ridiculous jump in performance.

    Also, @Z-man I have a professional question for you. I’m a recent college grad and was going to start a new job as a bilingual para with a public school district in March, but then coronavirus happened and the job got cancelled when the schools shut down. (It was also like a week before they finished my background check, so I never officially got hired and don’t qualify for unemployment, which sucks.) They told me they were going to keep my application materials and to reapply in the fall. My worry is that, with the huge recession we seem to be walking into, the money potentially won’t be there to hire more people that aren’t teachers. The school district is pretty desperate for bilingual help, and they directly asked me if I’d consider entering their program to be a bilingual teacher instead, but I’m still pretty concerned that I might be waiting all summer for a job that’ll evaporate in the fall. Since you’re a principal (IRRC), what do you think public school district budgets will be looking like in the fall?

  48. Well, I think this is the first time one KBer has told another to strip. And it was uncle geo, of all people.

  49. We need to hang onto Barrett long enough to sell low. No way we’d get rid of him now while his reputation outpaces his ability.

  50. >Here’s the problem: when you pay for the #3 guy before you have the #1 and #2, that makes it much, much harder (in many cases literally impossible) to get those (more important) pieces.<

    I agree 100%.

    I don't have good response other than if you keep waiting to sign your #1 you may be old, grey and balding like me before you actually land him. :-)

    With solid cap management (and to be fair to current management they have done that much well) you can usually fit your #1 and #2 under the cap before running into issues to fill out the rest. The key would be not overpaying for any of the role players or a marginal #3 before you have those other slots filled.

    If you think Mitchell is not a #2 option, I'd disagree, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I'd go for it in the same way I would have signed KP. I think KP has the way higher all around upside, but the injury risk I guess kind of makes them similar values.

    Honestly, I think we may already have prospects for #2 and #3 in Mitch/RJ. if Mitch can add anything to his game he can be a #3 and for all we know RJ could blossom into a #2 or maybe even a #1. We don't have a clear #1 though and that's the toughest thing to get. So I agree we need to be careful. We need space and assets to try to land whoever that may be.

  51. >While this may be true the jury is far from out. They may have also hung a huge albatross around their neck. Or as Chico Marx says in “A Night at the Opera in his best Italian immigrant accent, “Hey Stuffy…. Don’t be so glad!”<

    I think everyone understands the injury risk to KP, but his upside is so enticing and that combination so scary that's why Dallas did it. That's why I would have too.

  52. Mike Honcho: Since you’re a principal (IRRC), what do you think public school district budgets will be looking like in the fall?

    Mike, I am indeed expecting budgets to be very tight, and I have no idea how things will look in the fall but I am bracing for the worst. I was just discussing that in a meeting today, in fact. Also, a teacher just informed me that she’s retiring and I don’t know if the funding will be there for a replacement. The good news for you is that ELLs require mandated services and if you can get on that teacher pathway you should have no trouble getting work well into the future (although posting on this site raises questions about your intelligence :-D). As a para, it’s a bit murkier, I’m not sure if there is any mandate for bilingual para’s so in NYC you could get boxed out by seniority rules. I was once told that a para is a para is a para. There are seniority rules for teachers as well but you can’t replace a qualified bilingual teacher with a non-qualified teacher. Same is true with Special Ed certified teachers. My school only has like 2% ELL students and we share a bilingual teacher with another school. She is guaranteed to be on our team next year no matter what how the budget situation turns out. OTOH, we’ve never employed a para on the basis of being bilingual.

    Hope this is helpful. Let me know what you decide and how things turn out.

  53. Re: Donovan Mitchell

    His value depends on how much you believe his .560 TS% from this year. Looking at the shooting breakdown, the improvement is largely due to hitting midrange shots.

    As for the THJr comparison, Mitchell rebounds a little better, passes better, and takes on more of the offense. The larger USG% says you can surround him with defensive stars and still have a reasonably decent offense, that’s worth something to me. Also, THJr splits between his NYK tenures and his DAL & ATL stints is pretty staggering, about .030 TS points. Probably says something about the Knicks and the difference between a #1 option and #3-5 option.

  54. >Adding Donovan Mitchell, and then having to pay him 5/$180M, to this team (minus whatever we’d have to trade to get him i.e. almost certainly RJ and/or Mitch) does not do that.<

    I'd be WAY more willing to give up picks than promising players because have an excess of picks and a shortage of promising players. If that can't be done, then obviously we shouldn't do it, But you are right, the question is more theoretical than anything else. I'm simply not opposed to paying a #2 option the max.

  55. Hubert: Dude, take the undies off.I added naked Friday to my work week. Positive change.

    If it weren’t so damn cold in NY I might be naked all day, save for the zoom meetings where I don a white collared shirt and nothing else.

    Speaking of the weather, is warmth in quarantine, too?It’s like we locked in the weather that we had at the beginning of the lockdown.

    Just one reason to be glad we don’t do Knickerblogger Zoom meetings…

  56. Whew, I just got whiplash from Z-man sounding so competent and knowledgeable.

    ; )

  57. Mitchell really is one of those fascinating players who was both a steal at where he was drafted and will now probably be overpaid based on his reputation. Still a good player that I’d love to see be a Knicks…just not at the cost it’d take to acquire him.

  58. Leon’s memo (should look like)
    1 Build around high character and team ball
    2 Don’t rush trades/Wait for bargains and garage sales
    3 Trade Randle

  59. Knew Your Nicks:
    Leon’s memo (should look like)
    1 Build around high character and team ball
    2 Don’t rush trades/Wait for bargains and garage sales
    3 Trade Randle

    At least this is an improvement over having to tell everyone in the front office to stop trading away 1st round picks for overpaid, crappy players… I hope

  60. Early Bird: At least this is an improvement over having to tell everyone in the front office to stop trading away 1st round picks for overpaid, crappy players… I hope

    FO-Patience is a primary virtue which was anxiously neglected during the famous “Power Forward Primary Ejaculation off-season”.
    FO looks improved but not yet competent.

  61. It was exactly 69 degrees here in SE Portland at 4:20 PM today. It truly is a special day.

  62. Well, I think this is the first time one KBer has told another to strip. And it was uncle geo, of all people.

    fuck you – i’m still sexy as hell naked…

    okay, maybe that’s not entirely true – but, you don’t know that :)

    I feel pretty
    Oh, so pretty
    I feel pretty and witty and bright!
    And I pity
    Any one who isn’t me tonight

  63. Just one reason to be glad we don’t do Knickerblogger Zoom meetings…

    Hmm…

    This could be arranged.

    It could forever alter perception, though. When I met TNFH, for instance, it was quite humbling to do the math and realize at one point I must have been getting my ass handed to me by a 16 year old.

  64. Last year at this time I was with my son in the Viper Room in W Hollywood, feeling no pain. Now I’m a lump on my living room sofa watching some talking head on cable news talking about COVID-19. What a difference a year makes :(

    Thank gawd liquor stores are essential businesses.

  65. I just wanted to stop by and say that I hope everyone is doing well. Take care everyone. I did end up getting a temporary job working in a Target Distribution Center that’s actually pretty cool so my bills are fully paid at least during this disaster. I can’t do the music conversations with all of you. Just not my cup of tea. I also don’t want to get into the politics of everything, it just messes with my mental state. Looking forward to basketball sometime again. :-) Keep your heads up!

  66. good to hear things are well for you bidiong…no doubt we’ll be back to getting lost in basketball before long…

  67. god i suck as a teacher…the damage i’m doing to my poor godson as he goes through geo’s 3rd grade boot camp hopefully won’t be irreversible…

    god bless our teachers…

    i mentioned it before but, at one point i got certified and hired to teach middle school over in the orlando area…i lasted about a month…actually just two weeks of having students in front of me…i lost my cool maybe a total of 4 times in my nine years of active service…i passed that mark in my first few days of trying to teach kids…

    patience is just not a virtue i have in abundance…got to remember to use those kids academy youtube vids more…my words are simply causing a blank stare…

  68. geo:
    god i suck as a teacher…the damage i’m doing to my poor godson as he goes through geo’s 3rd grade boot camp hopefully won’t be irreversible…

    god bless our teachers…

    i mentioned it before but, at one point i got certified and hired to teach middle school over in the orlando area…i lasted about a month…actually just two weeks of having students in front of me…i lost my cool maybe a total of 4 times in my nine years of active service…i passed that mark in my first few days of trying to teach kids…

    patience is just not a virtue i have in abundance…got to remember to use those kids academy youtube vids more…my words are simply causing a blank stare…

    Funny, I had more stress in 3 months of coaching my son’s 5th grade travel basketball team in Westchester NY than I had in 3 decades as a teacher and administrator in NYC…

    Enjoy, geo, savor every minute…

  69. awwwww thanks, i appreciate your words z-man…yeah, I definitely need to adjust my thinking…how I’m looking at the situation…

    it’s a whole lot easier to play at dad than to actually be a dad…

  70. I was gonna say, knickerblogger Zoom conference doesn’t sound like a bad idea. Hubert if it makes you feel any better I was definitely on here when I was 16, but I’m pretty sure my takes were awful.

  71. >I’ve been wanting the Knicks to get Wood for a while<

    I haven't seen him play much at all, but from the stats it looks like he can be the kind of stretch PF that can also be efficient around the basket that the Knicks could use and team with Robinson.

  72. Wood would be a great signing, but I doubt they’ll do it. They’d have to trade Randle first, though.

  73. He’s probably a more realistic option, as Wood is going to get paid.

    Although, who the heck knows how salaries will even work next season.

    Get a good shooter for the 2, and you can roll out an interesting lineup with:

    1 Rookie point guard
    2 Shooter at the 2
    3 Barrett
    4 Bertans
    5 Mitch

    Some nice spacing there.

  74. Brian Cronin: 1 Rookie point guard
    2 Shooter at the 2
    3 Barrett
    4 Bertans
    5 Mitch

    Some nice spacing there.

    Or, trade for CP3 (include Randle, DSjr, vets, maybe 1 Dallas pick (yuk!)

    Paul/lottery pick
    Frank/Dotson/Trier
    Barrett/Bullock/Iggy
    Bertans/Knox
    Mitch/Hinton/Late 1st pick

    I wouldn’t do it but it would be fun!

  75. 1 Rookie point guard
    2 Shooter at the 2
    3 Barrett
    4 Bertans
    5 Mitch

    If it’s Haliburton we’re good, if it’s someone else that’s 3 non-shooters.

  76. If it’s Haliburton we’re good, if it’s someone else that’s 3 non-shooters.

    Yeah, I’m assuming that they’ll go with a point guard who can shoot. I agree that it makes no sense otherwise.

  77. Why don’t we just pencil in Cole Anthony since that is surely going to be the pick?

    After making Barrett their pick, can even the Knicks be dumb enough to go with another total non-shooter with a high lottery pick? It’s fine to get one guy like Barrett, but you can’t go with two with back-to-back lottery picks….can you?

    Oh man, they totally can, can’t they?

  78. Maybe the Knicks can’t take advantage of “these uncertain times” (trademarked by all commercials everywhere) and max out Ingram and see if the Pellies are worried about money enough to let him go?

  79. He’s probably a more realistic option, as Wood is going to get paid.

    I actually think they’ll get something in the same ballpark. Wood was definitely better this year, but Bertans has a much longer track record of being a good shooter (and a much longer track record in general).

    With Wood, you’re gambling on 1325 stellar minutes being representative of his talent. Still, it’s rare for a 24 year old productive player to hit the UFA market so I’d be willing to take on a lot of that risk. I’d initially offer something like 4/$52M and see where that goes.

    Where I would draw the line is an interesting question because if those minutes really are representative…he’s basically a max guy. With the sample size I’d probably start getting queasy around 4/$70M. People also often allude to vague “off-court” issues with him that I can’t speak to, so there’s that.

  80. Bertans did shoot 42% on nine threes a game this season. That’s kind of bonkers.

    Morris actually shot better this year (44%) but on “only” six a game and had never cracked 39% a season before this one (Bertans was at 43% just last season).

  81. It had to be. That was the rumor at the time (that he wanted to go all in on Russell while the less foolish members of the organization did not). The Rozier stuff is a bit trickier, but I think it was Mills, too. It’s possible the future first in the Rozier deal was the second Dallas pick.

  82. Does Bertans play the 4?

    I’m pretty convinced the Knicks are trading up for LaMelo if they don’t land a top pick. It’s the splash Rose will want, even though he’s not a great fit with RJ (who might never actually be good anyway).

    But I also doubt they’ll trade RJ at this point. So I’m thinking we’ll have a LaMelo/RJ backcourt next season since there’s zero indication RJ will ever play much sf.

    I’m sure the team would like to trade Randle at this point, but who would take him? He’s not the vet rental that Morris was, and he doesn’t seem to have a lot of room to blossom. I think we’re stuck with him unless we throw in a pick as a sweetener (or someone sees DSJ as a sweetener).

    I sort of like the idea of Thibs becoming the coach because at least Randle’s defense will force him to Thibs’ bench.

    In the LaMelo trade, we will probably have to give up a young player and/or our Clips pick, so I don’t expect us to make that pick. Bullock makes sense as the starter at sf, although I’d prefer a guy like Joe Harris (I doubt we land Bertans.) I also think Wood will be too expensive, although he would b nice. Killian Tillie with the 2nd round pick might be a cheap fit at pf next to Mitch, although he probably wouldn’t start at first. They could also go after a guy like Patrick Patterson, Gallo, or Meyers Leonard. They definitely need a stretch 4, though.

    So a realistic team could look like:

    PG: LaMelo
    SG: RJ
    SF: Joe Harris
    PF: Patrick Patterson
    C: Mitch

    With a bench of Frank, Tillie, Randle, Bullock, Gibson, and Knox. They still probably need a vet ball-handler, so maybe they’ll keep Elfrid, and maybe he or Frank will start at first. I’m assuming that DSJ and Trier will be shipped out and Iggy/Wooten will get spot minutes.

  83. Brian Cronin:
    Bertans did shoot 42% on nine threes a game this season. That’s kind of bonkers.

    Morris actually shot better this year (44%) but on “only” six a game and had never cracked 39% a season before this one (Bertans was at 43% just last season).

    Funny you bring that up….given how SA ditched Bertans to sign Morris, who proceeded to screw them over by reneging.

    The first time I noticed Bertans was when he and KP were playing together on the Latvian national team. I thought he was really good and wondered how we could land him, not realizing that he had already been drafted in 2011!

  84. Put it this way. The Knicks have never had a player even average eight three pointers a game, let alone nine…at a 42% success rate! Holy shit. Now I want Bertans so bad.

  85. Only five times has a Knick player averaged more than seven threes a game.

    THJ twice (including last season, where he was traded midway through the season), Crawford twice (the last time was when he got off to a scorching start to the 2008-09 season under D’Antoni and then they traded him, so it probably shouldn’t count) and Starks in 1994-95.

    Of the four seasons, excluding Crawford’s 11 game stretch? The peak 3P% of those four seasons was 36%. Daaang.

  86. Does Bertans play the 4?

    He’s been playing the 4 the past two seasons. If he wasn’t a 4 here, then whoever is coaching the Knicks would be a fool. So…yeah…he’d probably be a 3 here.

  87. ***1 Rookie point guard
    2 Shooter at the 2
    3 Barrett
    4 Bertans
    5 Mitch***

    Whoever it is, I hope the nickname Shooter At The Two sticks, and it gets put on the back of his jersey, and he gets a tv show spin off, and by the end of the year we don’t even remember his real name.

  88. At the very least, he’s worth something like Randle money, anything less than that for 3 years wouldn’t be terrible. He’s not much of a defender or rebounder for a PF (he played 90+% of his minutes there) or much of a passer either but that kind of 3-pt shooting is crazy valuable and he’s not a true 1-trick pony like Novak was (he even averages around a dunk every 100 minutes!)

    I wonder if he would even take the call at market price, since I’m sure KP filled him in on the Knicks organization.

  89. Brian Cronin: He’s been playing the 4 the past two seasons. If he wasn’t a 4 here, then whoever is coaching the Knicks would be a fool. So…yeah…he’d probably be a 3 here.

    How else are we going to force RJ to play the 2?

  90. Donnie Walsh:
    ***1 Rookie point guard
    2 Shooter at the 2
    3 Barrett
    4 Bertans
    5 Mitch***

    Whoever it is, I hope the nickname Shooter At The Two sticks, and it gets put on the back of his jersey, and he gets a tv show spin off, and by the end of the year we don’t even remember his real name.

    You mean Waggie ElLOCK?

  91. For all prospective new coaches or GMs, there should be a simple test – “What position should Barrett play next season?” and everyone who says “the 1 or the 2,” should be dismissed.

  92. Bertans has been playing the 4 the past two seasons. If he wasn’t a 4 here, then whoever is coaching the Knicks would be a fool. So…yeah…he’d probably be a 3 here.

    We need a shooter at the 2, and he’s a shooter, so he should play the 2. While we’re at it, let’s move Randle to POINT guard, because he leads the team in points.

  93. I’m pretty convinced the Knicks are trading up for LaMelo if they don’t land a top pick. It’s the splash Rose will want, even though he’s not a great fit with RJ (who might never actually be good anyway).

    I wouldn’t mind LaMelo, but man, he is a rough fit with RJ and Mitch. That’s already three non-shooters in your starting lineup of the future. You can’t have a top-15 offense in today’s NBA without at least three shooters on the floor. We’d basically need to sign Bertans and peak Ray Allen to make up for LaMelo-RJ-Mitch.

    Maybe LaMelo can evolve into a decent shooter. I don’t have much faith that RJ will ever be a floor-spacer.

  94. TheOakmanCometh: I wouldn’t mind LaMelo, but man, he is a rough fit with RJ and Mitch. That’s already three non-shooters in your starting lineup of the future. You can’t have a top-15 offense in today’s NBA without at least three shooters on the floor. We’d basically need to sign Bertans and peak Ray Allen to make up for LaMelo-RJ-Mitch.

    Maybe LaMelo can evolve into a decent shooter. I don’t have much faith that RJ will ever be a floor-spacer.

    Yeah this was my point, the PGs at the top of the draft not named Haliburton can’t shoot.

  95. There is literally no one on the roster that I would base my drafting priorities on. We’re way too talent-starved. That said, I don’t think there’s ever been a draft with this little consensus on anything

  96. Bertans is the exact type of PF to give Randle-money to. Randle’s game is so antiquated I don’t get why we thought he might be a good signing.
    I think Morey may have a point when he said he traded Capella because (paraphrase): it’s not cost-effective to have an expensive center these days.
    Its so much more important to have shooting.
    wtf are we doing guys talking about this in the middle of a pandemic theres no games or moves to even fking discuss whats wrong with us my kids are screaming I’m having an knicksistential crisis

  97. I think if you don’t think LaMelo is going to develop into a shooter you shouldn’t be drafting him

  98. No idea what Givony is referring to. LaMelo shot 69% from the line in the only high school stats I could find, and 72% in the NBL. Also, there’s the rest of that excerpt:

    Has struggled to score efficiently throughout his career. Shot just 46% from 2-point range and 25% from 3. Shoots jumpers with unorthodox mechanics, including a two-handed release while kicking out his legs. The touch he shows on floaters and career 82% free throw percentage leaves room for optimism, but his inability to buy a basket at times this season in the half court was discouraging.

    I think LaMelo would be a perfectly defensible pick because, like Lonzo, he doesn’t need to be much of a scorer to work out to some extent. But I think if you’re drafting him looking for a shooter, you’re making a big mistake.

    I can’t argue with the people saying he’d be a horrific fit on our roster for that reason. I guess I’m just with wetbandit in thinking it’s very, very early in our rebuilding process for such considerations.

  99. DRed: I think if you don’t think LaMelo is going to develop into a shooter you shouldn’t be drafting him

    I only agree to a point…if you are talking about 3-pt shooting, I don’t agree at all. By that, I mean that if you think he has the ability to develop into a reasonably efficient “scorer” with “adequate” 3-pt shooting while being a savant passer and rebounder, I think you still take him. Doncic is in another realm in terms of being a “sure thing” pick, but LaMelo has some of the same attributes. The passing and rebounding seem like sure things. The 3-pt shooting should come around. What seems to separate Doncic the most is his FTr and 2pt%, and those are much more difficult to project.

    So what I would say is that if you don’t think LaMelo will improve his 2-pt% and FTr, you shouldn’t draft him.

  100. thenoblefacehumper: No idea what Givony is referring to. LaMelo shot 69% from the line in the only high school stats I could find, and 72% in the NBL.

    I don’t know what he’s referring to either. He played 8 games in Lithuania and shot 74%. But his form looks pretty good and in the four games he shot FTs he was 7-8. 3-4, 2-2, and 2-5.

  101. Anyway, the larger point is that the bigger concern about LaMelo is 2-pt% and FTr. Same with Cole Anthony, although he has another glaring issue (below-average court vision for a PG).

  102. That said, I don’t think there’s ever been a draft with this little consensus on anything

    Yeah, but there have been plenty of drafts with lots of consensus around the top that turned out to be dead wrong. If ever there’s a chance to fleece a team out of future picks for the privilege of moving from, say, #6 to #3, this is it. Drink the milkshake of the overconfident.

    But we’re probably gonna have the 8th pick again because Knicks.

  103. NBATV showing Game 5 of the Pacers vs Bucks in the 1st rd from 2000. Forgot how close the Pacers were to losing that series which would’ve meant either 76ers or Bucks in the Conference Finals vs the Knicks who would’ve had homecourt. Would’ve been back-to-back NBA Finals for the Knicks although I doubt they would’ve had much of a chance vs the Lakers considering how banged up the Knicks were by the end of the Conference Finals. Still would’ve been fun to have had a Knicks-Lakers NBA Finals in 2000 though.

  104. Yeah, but there have been plenty of drafts with lots of consensus around the top that turned out to be dead wrong.

    yeah, i guess. and how many top picks were busts. but this year, its not a question of what’s the order… we don’t even have clear tiers of players..
    I could seriously see all of the top 15 ending up busts. Or only a few later guys like Obi and Haliburton rocking and Ball/Cole/Wiseman/Edwards sucking. I have no idea what to make of Deni Avdija and half of these other guys.
    It’s a crapshoot this year.

  105. And anyone know who the fk Brock Aller is? He’s the new ‘capologist’ and ‘right hand man’ under Rose.

    “Aller is highly respected in league circles. He was considered Dan Gilbert’s close confidant and was instrumental in Cleveland’s run to the 2016 NBA title. Known as a “capologist,” Aller’s savvy in that field led to key moves like Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith being traded from the Knicks to the Cavs in 2015.””

    [Begley] Once the deal is completed, Brock Aller will be a chief strategist for Leon Rose’s Knicks, sources say. League sources say Aller will be one of Rose’s right-hand men and will have influence in many aspects of the organization.

    I mean… that’s a finals team that won despite the front office if there ever was one.. Iman Shumpert, really?

  106. Lol, is that seriously the best they could come up with for that guy’s resume? Traded for Shump JR? I guess he had nothing to do with the Love trade.

    Was there anything creative about how Cleveland handled the cap during those years? Doesn’t look like an inspiring hire.

  107. I’d rather have a draftologist, shotologist, tradeologist, developologist than a capologist from the team that did nothing right in the past five years other than bungle back into LeBron

  108. I think that the JR/Shump deal was a really good one for the Cavs. They got two major rotation players and a first round pick (which they then packaged with another pick for Mozgov) for Dion Waiters, a second round pick and cap filler (like Lou Amundson). That’s an impressive deal.

    Now, is it impressive enough for me to be, like, “Oh man, I hope the Knicks hire the guy behind that deal!”? No, of course not, and if that’s the best thing on his resume, then that’s depressing, but it was a good deal.

  109. Oh, by the way, just as a little extra twist of the “Knicksy” knife, remember how OKC was willing to trade their first rounder for Shump but Phil wanted to use Shump instead to clear JR Smith’s $6 million of cap space off of the cap so that Phil could sign Derrick Williams and Aaron Afflalo?

    That first round pick (which, of course, you can’t assume that the Knicks would have drafted with that pick) is a 22 year old shooting guard currently hitting 39.7% of his threes for the Sixers on five threes per game.

  110. There is a deliciously, unabashedly stupid Guardian article on There Will Be Blood making the rounds on social media. Yikes.

  111. It’s funny, a trending thing on Twitter right now is “Name five perfect movies” and I just assumed There Will Be Blood was trending because of that, and I was certainly more blissful thinking that over learning of this shitty take.

  112. Eh, reading it, it’s certainly not a good piece, by any stretch of the imagination, but I was expecting it to be a lot worse. Some real eye-rolling moments, but hey, she ended up liking the film when all was said and done.

  113. You’re right Brian, the details of the trade are better than I remembered.

    I’m guessing he also had some responsibility for the extensions both guys signed though. Those were pretty crappy deals for the Cavs even if they were going to be capped out regardless. Not the sort of ‘capology’ I want to see at MSG.

  114. If the highlight of your career is acquiring two players the Knicks managed to acquire, you’re doing something wrong. Shump & JR were both on the Knicks and we suck. On the other hand, maybe he did something else but Shump & JR are the most familiar to the Knicks.

  115. Also LaMelo can’t play defense at all. You’re counting on him to improve from the least efficient player in the league AND the worst defender. That’s not a #1 pick in my book.

    Don’t know how accurate or meaningful it is, but the Stepien’s defensive Synergy numbers places LaMelo in the 3%ile of defenders.

  116. In reading about, watching and studying LaMelo, I am suspecting that he has ADHD.

    The main reason I think he’s worth the risk of a high pick is that if he stalls in his development and we read it early, he will still have significant trade value. He’s got star power that will inflate his value for a couple of years…the size, the passing, the occasional flashy play on O or D…in that sense, his trade value floor seems higher than his actual floor as a player. Sort of the way DSjr had trade value even though his shot looked completely broken and he looked to have a terrible b-ball IQ…he had star power. I think he will develop into a legit star player, but even if not, he can be ditched for something in return. Not the case with Frank.

  117. I doubt very much LaMelo will have high trade value regardless of his play, from some of what I’ve read many teams will steer clear of him because of his dad plus looks like he might have a reputation of being immature and nowhere near as level headed as his brother.

  118. Film club meets Thursday. Settling down to watch Jowles favorite movie tonight, Mulholland Drive. First time.

  119. I actually just read a piece quoting his teammate Aaron Brooks who said he was incredibly mature in Australia, a great teammate, and a kid that always did what was expected of him.

    Maybe he doesn’t have a psychotic work ethic like Jordan, but he sounds legit.

    I’m not sure about his defense, but his shot mechanics look clean except for some lower body floating, and he has a real quick release unlike many kids like Haliburton for one. I think his shooting will improve, but who knows what his ceiling is…

  120. BigBlueAL:
    I doubt very much LaMelo will have high trade value regardless of his play, from some of what I’ve read many teams will steer clear of him because of his dad plus looks like he might have a reputation of being immature and nowhere near as level headed as his brother.

    I dunno, the world is used to Lavar now and Lonzo seems to have moved on from him. LaMelo is definitely immature and has some big question marks. The thing is, so does everyone else. I don’t see a Ja Morant or a De’Aaron Fox or even a Lonzo Ball in this draft in terms of a guy with a high floor. But the elite size, court vision, passing, ball-handling and rebounding all look for real. None of that stuff is going to go away, especially the size. I don’t think the kid has been properly coached in a stable environment yet…he’s bounced around and played short stints on either the best (Spire) or worst team (LIT-1 and NBL) in his league. But it seems clear to me that the things he already has simply can’t be taught and are possessed by very few non-elite players. I think the risk of taking him and regretting is less than the risk of passing on him and regretting it. He’s just that unique.

  121. I swear to Clyde if you are live-blogging it here, I will pay Mike K. a large sum of money to ban you

  122. i just watched this video of LaMelo and Mike Schmitz breaking down his NBL film. I have to admit it gave me a bit of pause. LaMelo didn’t say a single thing that came across as insightful.

  123. I don’t see a Ja Morant or a De’Aaron Fox or even a Lonzo Ball in this draft in terms of a guy with a high floor.

    You’re killing me with how depressing this draft is.

  124. This is the draft where we move up. I can feel it. Then we take the same guy that would have been available at 6 because no one knows who is actually good.

  125. Dan Gilbert loves Aller and now he’s with the Knicks. That’s two reasons to think he’s not any good. I’d throw In adding JR Smith and Iman Shumpert as negatives also, but I guess when you have LeBron on your team and you are located in Cleveland, that’s much less of a debacle than having them in NY with Melo trying to keep them under control. Seriously, that team won a championship, but there’s no way the Cavs couldn’t have added better pieces than those two fools. People forget how desperate we were to get rid of Smith and how no one on earth wanted anything to do with him. Shumpert came in as a somewhat promising player, but the injuries and partying with Smith every night made him clear toss. I see nothing in this guy’s resume to like. The best thing I can say about him is that he was lucky enough to work for the Cavs while LeBron was there.

  126. Stratomatic: Frequently wrong, but never in doubt:
    Dan Gilbert loves Aller and now he’s with the Knicks.That’s two reasons to think he’s not any good. I’d throw In adding JR Smith and Iman Shumpert as negatives also,but I guess when you have LeBron on your team and you are located in Cleveland, that’s much less of a debacle than having them in NY with Melo trying to keep them under control. Seriously, that team won a championship, but there’s no way the Cavs couldn’t have added better pieces than those twofools. People forget how desperate we were to get rid of Smith and how no one on earth wanted anything to do with him. Shumpert came in as a somewhat promising player, but the injuries and partying with Smith every night made him clear toss. I see nothing in this guy’s resume to like.

    He’s not Steve Mills…that’s something anyway!

  127. >He’s not Steve Mills…that’s something anyway!<

    Good point. :-)

  128. I’ll always appreciate Shump for his contributions during the 2013 playoffs. Was by far the Knicks best player in Game 6 at Boston and I will never forget him mocking Jason Terry by doing his flying jet celebration after hitting a 3pter. Not to mention his insane putback dunk in Game 2 vs the Pacers and being the only player besides Melo who actually showed up in Indiana for Game 6.

    But it was all downhill from there for Shump in NY.

  129. This is the draft where we move up. I can feel it. Then we take the same guy that would have been available at 6 because no one knows who is actually good.

    That would be the Knickiest result, true. It kills me that there’s really only one “safe” bet in the lottery and he’s a freaking big man! Argh! This team desperately needs a shooter and this just has to be the draft that they’e picking in. Double argh!

  130. That’s two reasons to think he’s not any good. I’d throw In adding JR Smith and Iman Shumpert as negatives also,but I guess when you have LeBron on your team and you are located in Cleveland, that’s much less of a debacle than having them in NY with Melo trying to keep them under control. Seriously, that team won a championship, but there’s no way the Cavs couldn’t have added better pieces than those twofools.

    Well this is just revisionist history. The Cavs were capped out and asset strapped–it’s quite literally true that they couldn’t have added anyone else at that deadline.

    By the way, JR went on to have a .565 TS% for them (.390 3PT%) that year, and was a prominent rotation player for them the year after in which they won the championship. Picking him up for free because Phil Jackson was terrified he might exercise a $6M option, thus making it a bit harder to sign Courtney Lee or something, turned out to be a great move.

  131. By the way, JR went on to have a .565 TS% for them (.390 3PT%) that year, and was a prominent rotation player for them the year after in which they won the championship. Picking him up for free because Phil Jackson was terrified he might exercise a $6M option, thus making it a bit harder to sign Courtney Lee or something, turned out to be a great move.

    Yeah, and think about it, for just Shump, the Knicks were asking for a first rounder. They were willing to get no pick if the team in question took JR off of their hands. So the Cavs got two useful players and got to keep their pick in the process just by adding to an already capped out team.

  132. Yeah, and think about it, for just Shump, the Knicks were asking for a first rounder. They were willing to get no pick if the team in question took JR off of their hands. So the Cavs got two useful players and got to keep their pick in the process just by adding to an already capped out team.

    Yup. Obviously I have no idea what Aller’s role was specifically and I’m naturally skeptical about anyone the Knicks hire, but the Cavs made a number of nifty moves during their run and it was noted at the time. I do view it as a small positive that they went out and got someone who isn’t a “name.”

    God, Phil Jackson was such a moron. With all the money he saved by not just taking the first-rounder for Shump, he got us one glorious year of Arron Afflalo and Derrick Williams.

  133. >But it was all downhill from there for Shump in NY.<

    The problem with Shumpert over and above the injuries that took away some of his athleticism on both sides was that his best friend on the team was JR Smith. I remember that period well. I even remember the tone of my comments here at the time. I was worried about the tabloid reports that he was hanging out and partying with JR Smith every night. No good was going to come of that in terms of his productivity or development as a player.

    The problem with JR Smith was never basketball. It was that he was JR Smith. He was a disruptive personality, poison to the locker room, and would hurt any attempt to build a team that would behave professionally. Virtually everyone wanted him out of NY at the time ( and they were right to).

    JR Smith was a variation of Dennis Rodman without being even close to as good. It took special leadership to keep him under control. sending him to Siberia (I mean Cleveland) where there was little to no night life like in NY also helped. With James keeping him under wraps and Cleveland limiting his lifestyle, it’s no shock he could be useful. But in NY with Melo he was poison.

    An important part of our thinking going forward should be to avoid players like JR Smith. We should be focusing on high character mature and professional players that are more interested in basketball than partying.

  134. For the record, I don’t buy media “reports” that so and so could have been traded for “x”. Most of the media is full of shit (Woj being one exception). Most of the reports are speculation and hearsay that have no basis in fact. Unless a GM or high level executive comes out and says that a certain deal was on the table, it was never a legitimate deal. It was some idiot working for a newspaper or website making things up for clicks or reporting the nonsense he heard from someone with an agenda.

  135. Unless a GM or high level executive comes out and says that a certain deal was on the table, it was never a legitimate deal.

    Word.

  136. Plus, it was Woj who was reporting the “Knicks looking for a first rounder for Shump” rumors at the time.

  137. Anyone watching the Bulls documentary on ESPN? I’ve watched the first 2 parts. So good to see all that footage.

    It doesn’t just cover the last season, but goes back to the 80s and how they built the Bulls dynasty.

    One thing that really stuck out to me was in episode 2 they talked about Jordan’s second season when he got hurt. He finally came back on a minutes restriction. Last game of the season they were in 9th place and Kraus wanted them to lose so they could get a lottery pick. Paxson hits a buzzer beater and they sneak into the playoffs as the 8th seed to face the 67 win Celtics (the best Celtics team of that period).

    They lose in 4 games but in game 2 you get Jordan’s masterpiece where he puts up 63 points (still a playoff record).

    After that, Jordan’s relationship with Kraus was always tense even though he did put that team together. For Jordan, wanting to tank for a better pick was against everything he believed. That you should play every game at the highest level and try to win every single game no matter what. Tanking was a loser’s philosophy. And here is the thing. Even though they didn’t get that higher pick and even though they got swept by the Celtics, that 8th seed losing record Bulls team was the real beginning of Jordan’s dominance. We wouldn’t have that 63 point masterpiece if they’d tanked. And Kraus was still able to pull off moves to get Pippen, Grant, etc…and build a dynasty.

    I know. Its Jordan. The greatest player of all time. We don’t have that kind of guy on our team. But also, Jordan was the greatest partly because he held that type of philosophy. And if we have players and coaches who are like that, we can build a winner. I don’t know. You can look at the years we picked Frank and Knox and say “see! We should have tanked!” But those were poor picks for where they were picked too and there were better (much better) players picked after them.

  138. Once you have Michael Jordan the tanking debate definitely gets more complicated. I am not sure what implications you think that has for the New York Knicks.

  139. Also, Krause wanted into the lottery to get Charles Oakley. He was able to trade up for Oakley that offseason, so it all worked out, but what if the Cavs weren’t interested in dealing Oakley? How would that have changed things for the Bulls?

    But yeah, anyhow, it’s a completely different situation now. We’re not talking about first round playoff loss vs. the #14 pick. It’s a top five pick versus a #8 or #9 pick. That’s where the Knicks have been incompetent. Totally different scenarios. Different situations require different solutions.

  140. https://www.si.com/nba/2015/01/06/dion-waiters-jr-smith-iman-shumpert-cavaliers-knicks-thunder-trade-grades

    “Nitpickers will bemoan the fact that Shumpert, who looked like a 2011 draft steal and was linked to big-name targets in trade rumors for years, departs for basically nothing. However, Shumpert has failed to post a Player Efficiency Rating of 15 or better during his four-year career and his market value took a major hit when he suffered a serious knee injury in 2012. He is also heading for free agency this summer, a fact that naturally limits interest in him. Knicks fans might lament Shumpert’s departure, but it’s difficult to argue that retaining him was a higher-priority than digging in on a full rebuilding effort considering New York’s performance this season.

    Charley Rosen on the trade

    “I asked [Derek Fisher] what players were the biggest distractions. He said that although J.R. [Smith] never talked back to him, he always walked around under a dark cloud. Derek was worried that negative energy was contagious.” Phil Jackson, in January

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/13269490/the-phil-files-part-4-trade-shook-new-york

    There were no good deals available for Shumpert and the priority was dismantling the team AND GETTING RID OF JR SMITH which required adding in Shumpert who they probably weren’t going to resign in free agency and whose market value had declined due to poor performance, because he was hurt at the time, and because he was a free agent.

    None of that matters much. The Cavs didn’t win a championship because they had JR Smith and Shumpert instead of Waiters. It was just a better place for them to be than NY for the reasons I suggested. If that’s the best we’ve got for adding this guy to management, I’m not impressed.

    At said it a few weeks ago.

    We should hiring high level people with a great track record from well run winning organizations. The Cavs are not what I had in mind.

  141. swiftandabundant: That you should play every game at the highest level and try to win every single game no matter what. Tanking was a loser’s philosophy

    We’ll always have Maurice Ndour..

  142. and the priority was dismantling the team AND GETTING RID OF JR SMITH which required adding in Shumpert

    Good ways to get rid of JR Smith:
    -Cut him

    Bad ways to get rid of JR Smith:
    -Forego a first round pick to trade him in order to prevent him from possibly, but not definitely, exercising a $6M player option because you need that money to sign Derrick Williams

  143. Also if Charley Rosen says bad things about someone that automatically elevates my opinion of them

  144. I mean I guess its different when you all ready have Jordan and your one game out of the playoffs vs. being 20 games back and having scrubs on your team with no legit stars. I get the value of tanking when you can’t even begin to sniff the playoffs. I just think the idea of tanking has seeped into the game and is now so entrenched and accepted as part of the game and I’m not a fan. I wish they would change the rules even more so to make it more random and also not allow any team to get a top 5 pick multiple years in a row. Or maybe still let some of the lower seed teams slip into the lottery (not get a top 5 pick but still get a top 10?). So teams on the bubble aren’t losing just to not make the playoffs.

  145. I get that its different to be the 9th seed and sneak into the playoffs than to be a lottery team and fall back to 8 or 9 because of one or two wins. The Bulls did all ready have Jordan.

    But we could have used those Knox and Frank picks to pick much better players. Donovan Mitchell was there for taking. Its not like he was picked at the end of the first round or second round and was some huge surprise. He was picked like 4 or 5 spots after our pick.

  146. Good ways to get rid of JR Smith:
    -Cut him

    Bad ways to get rid of JR Smith:
    -Forego a first round pick to trade him in order to prevent him from possibly, but not definitely, exercising a $6M player option because you need that money to sign Derrick Williams

    Yeah, holy shit, that was a whole lot of quoting that said nothing about the topic at hand, which was that they prioritized dumping Smith’s one-year of his deal over getting a first round pick, which is precisely what we’re criticizing.

  147. Does anyone besides me like Kira Lewis Jr. in a trade down or trade up scenario? Mid-lottery is probably too high for him, but is he really any more risky than Cole Anthony?

  148. I like Kira Lewis Jr. but wouldn’t trade down for him. I would probably package the later two picks to trade up for him though.

  149. Really enjoying the Bulls doc on ESPN (even though they jump around chronologically quite a bit)

    Episode 2 has some highlights from the Bulls first round series against Boston in 1986 (Bird says that was the best Celtics team he ever played on) Jordan had won ROY the year before, but this was really his coming out party. 49 points in game 1, 63 points in game 2 in an OT loss. And the Celtics threw every player they had at him to try and stop him. I remember watching in awe and realizing how ridiculously good Jordan was.

    Reminded me a little of the Knicks-Celtics series in 1984 when Bernard King and a bunch of scrubs took a similar Boston team to 7 games and Bernard averaged 34.8 points.

  150. I would not be pro-tanking if we had Michael Jordan in his prime on the team. That is not the kind of tanking anyone has ever talked about here.

  151. Oof. Anyone read Jonathan Macri’s Knicks predictions at SI.com? It sounds like the most plausible scenario. Here it is (not in the correct order):

    1. Trade Knox/Frank/Clips 1st for Chris Paul

    2. Trade DSJ for a late 2nd rounder

    3. Bring back Melo to start

    4. Draft the point guard of the future (LaMelo or one of the others)

    5. Hire Thibs as coach

    6. Sign or trade for a stretch 4 (he suggests a Randle for Love swap)

  152. I get that its different if you have Jordan but I’m pretty sure that if a lot of people were GM of The Bulls that season they also would have advocated not letting Jordan back to play and tanking instead of letting him play. They also would have been furious when Paxson hit the game winner that got them into the playoff instead of getting a higher pick in the draft. And if Kraus had his way, we would have never witnessed Jordan’s true coming out party against Boston that year. They lost that series but we got the all-time playoff scoring record for one game out of it. I remember watching that game as a little kid.

    Obviously its a different scenario when you’re 20 games out of the 8th seed and one or two wins is the difference between picking as low as 5 and as low as 9. But The Knicks have also had really bad draft luck every year we’ve been in the lottery. We consistently pick lower than we should. And we’ve also messed up some of the picks we’ve had.

  153. My predictions

    1 Trade our starting unit for CPaul and then make him our capologist.

    2 Send DSJ to the Harlem Globetrotters.

    3 Bring back Melo Chandler Amare JRSmith JKidd Sheed and Shump.

    4 Draft the ‘Anthony Bennett’ of this draft.

    5 Hire Tyron Lue as a coach.

    6 Bring back Lance Thomas and stretch him till he becomes a strech 4.

  154. They also would have been furious when Paxson hit the game winner that got them into the playoff instead of getting a higher pick in the draft

    Huh? In today’s lottery, the #14 seed gets the following odds

    #1 0.55%
    #2 0.63%
    #3 0.72%

    Do you honestly believe that the board’s tank advocates would rather have those odds than a seven-game series against the league’s best (and probably most entertaining) team?

    But things were different in 1986, and their fans would have been right to ambivalent about it. From 1984 to 1987, the draft lottery had equal odds among all non-playoff teams. In 1986, the Bulls had a 1-in-7 chance of a #1 pick, regardless of whether they had won zero or 29 games (as did the Cavs, who failed to make the playoffs just one W behind the Bulls; they picked first overall).

    That’s a no-lose situation, if you ask me. You either get to watch a full-strength Bulls team against the juggernaut Celtics or you get an even chance at striking gold.

    And if Kraus had his way, we would have never witnessed Jordan’s true coming out party against Boston that year. They lost that series but we got the all-time playoff scoring record for one game out of it. I remember watching that game as a little kid.

    I mean, that’s cool, but we’re talking strategy, not warm fuzzies. Plus, how many 1st-round series are actually memorable? Like 2% of them?

    Obviously its a different scenario when you’re 20 games out of the 8th seed and one or two wins is the difference between picking as low as 5 and as low as 9.

    As I explained above, the scenario is not remotely similar.

    But The Knicks have also had really bad draft luck every year we’ve been in the lottery. We consistently pick lower than we should.

    Tarot reading is not an element of NBA front-office strategy.

    And we’ve also messed up some of the picks we’ve had…

  155. Is this what you’re saying?

    (1) The Knicks’ former front office used lottery picks on bad players.
    (2) Those executives were fired and replaced.
    (3) The Knicks should not place much value in future lottery positioning because of the failures of the since-departed decision-makers.

  156. I get that its different if you have Jordan but

    No offense man, but if you write this here partial sentence, nothing you say after it matters.

  157. Is this what you’re saying?

    (1) The Knicks’ former front office used lottery picks on bad players.
    (2) Those executives were fired and replaced.
    (3) The Knicks should not place much value in future lottery positioning because of the failures of the since-departed decision-makers.

    I think his point is that making the playoffs as an 8th seed that got swept was more beneficial to the Bulls, when they had 22 year old Michael Jordan, than increased lottery odds. This proves you should be a ruff rydah and not tank.

    The problem is he’s kind of glossing over the whole “22 year old Michael Jordan” thing.

  158. See, if he’s arguing that it’s better as a fan to watch your team play playoff basketball than not watching playoff basketball, I do agree. If he’s arguing that the playoff berth was better for the future of the team than a 2-in-7 shot of drafting Len Bias (RIP), then we’re at loggerheads.

  159. Considering how weak this draft and how there is no real consensus on the Top 5 players wouldn’t the Knicks be better off drafting 7th – 9th just for cap reasons? If the 7th pick in the draft could be as good as the 1st pick but make significantly less money over the next 5 years that would be worth not moving up in this draft no?

  160. Any chance to re-live old trade threads!

    http://knickerblogger.net/breaking-knicks-trade-shump-j-r-for-second-rounder/

    More than anything, that trade was a signal that Phil Jackson wasn’t beholden to CAA, which makes it ironic that it is the trade that is being used by Rose to justify hiring Brock Allard.

    I didn’t do a full read through but my god if JK47 isn’t prescient as hell…

    This team has five wins in January. It’s fast becoming one of the worst teams in the history of the league. The roster is completely barren of talent; next year’s roster is Carmelo Anthony, Pablo Prigioni, Jose Calderon, and Tim Hardaway, and that’s pretty much it. That is a pitiful talent base.

    How do you fix that with $27M in salary cap space? You can’t. There are too many holes to fill. The Knicks need perimeter defenders and they need interior defenders. They need rebounders. The shooting guard and power forward positions are absolute black holes, and the point guard and center positions could also use beefing up. The young players under team control are all very iffy propositions: the mediocre Hardaway, the raw Antetokuonmpo, the D-League longshot Galloway… Sure, you’ll have your lottery pick next year but even if you get Okafor or Towns those guys are gonna be 19 years old when the season starts.

    $27M seems like a lot of salary cap space, but not when you have to fill almost every role on the team. There is no quick fix for a team playing .135 ball.

    I hope one day Phil Jackson does an in-depth interview in which he tries to explain what the “strategy” was here.

  161. I think there’s 5 players in this draft good enough to not trade down from:
    LaMelo
    Wiseman
    Edwards
    Okongwu
    Halliburton

    So if we land in the 1-5 spot, I wouldn’t trade down unless it was a lopsided offer.

    We are most likely picking 6-8 (6 is slim, would only happen if no one moved up from below 6.) so most likely 7 or 8 unless we get lucky.

    At 6, my guess is that someone takes Toppin instead of one of the 5 above. So if one of those 5 are available, I stand pat and take him.

    At 7 or 8 (the most likely outcome cause knicks) it depends on whether Toppin, Cole Anthony, Okoro, Advija, or Hayes get selected, pushing one of the top 5 down. If not, and the choices are Toppin, Hayes, Anthony, Okoro, or Avdija (nobody below that merits taking in the top 8) then I would try to trade down, like for for a mid-teens pick and 1st rounder in a future (deeper) draft. If I could come away with Kira Lewis and, I dunno, the Olympiacos kid, plus our late 1st and early 2nd rounder (or trade up with those two and land Lewis and Nesmith) I’d be pretty happy.

  162. Hopefully we’ll be left with 2 of Haliburton, Hayes, Avdija, and maybe Toppin to choose from, and all those guys seem better than Edwards. Heck, I‘d even consider Hampton. Maybe Okwongu will fall and that would be great. Personally, I like the 7-9 “high floor” category more than the “future star” top picks.

  163. I don’t get the hype around Avdija, his stats are pretty terrible. At best, he seems like Hezonja 2.0

  164. But things were different in 1986, and their fans would have been right to ambivalent about it. From 1984 to 1987, the draft lottery had equal odds among all non-playoff teams. In 1986, the Bulls had a 1-in-7 chance of a #1 pick, regardless of whether they had won zero or 29 games (as did the Cavs, who failed to make the playoffs just one W behind the Bulls; they picked first overall).

    Brad Daugherty would have been an interesting get for that Bulls team but I don’t think it would have changed the course of history.

    This is absolutely the draft to trade down for future picks. Not even trade down for who, just more down the road. That’s obviously not going to happen, and the (ugh, sorta-kinda) youth movement is over. Dolan tried not trading picks and it didn’t work, so the Knicks are hiring execs with proven records of building winners in free agency.

  165. Brad Daugherty would have been an interesting get for that Bulls team but I don’t think it would have changed the course of history.

    Neither do I, and the lottery that year was really, really bad. Daugherty retired due to back injuries, Chuck Person lived up to his name, and three of the six others (Bias, Washburn and Tarpley) had their playing careers ended by cocaine addictions. Young Ron Harper would have been a great get at #8, but it’s not like they missed out on David Robinson or Pat Ewing.

    The point still stands that it would likely be a greater reward to be in the lottery than to face the Celtics in the first round, especially since it appeared unlikely (due to 22-year-old Jordan) that the Bulls would sniff the lottery for ten years. 1997 Spurs fans can attest to that.

  166. Avdija is 18 or 19 playing in the second best league in the world for a top tier team which says something. He only has a tiny sample of minutes there, so those numbers are not that telling. Here’s his numbers from the Israeli league: https://www.proballers.com/basketball/player/74971/deni-avdija

    Still pretty underwhelming. The scouting reports I’ve read indicate he’s a better passer than his numbers show. Perhaps the thinking is he’ll continue to improve as a playmaker in the PnR and can run that more consistently in game at some point? Perhaps he’s also benefiting from fitting into the same mold as Luka, despite clearly being worse. I personally don’t want him at all.

  167. ***Brad Daugherty would have been an interesting get for that Bulls team but I don’t think it would have changed the course of history.***

    I agree, but Daugherty was really, really good. He was probably better than Ewing over the first 8 years of their respective careers, and his Cleveland team was excellent. Probably better than any team the Knicks surrounded Ewing with. It’s too bad his career ended just as his very high prime years were starting.

  168. Early Bird:
    Avdija is 18 or 19 playing in the second best league in the world for a top tier team which says something. He only has a tiny sample of minutes there, so those numbers are not that telling. Here’s his numbers from the Israeli league: https://www.proballers.com/basketball/player/74971/deni-avdija

    Still pretty underwhelming. The scouting reports I’ve read indicate he’s a better passer than his numbers show. Perhaps the thinking is he’ll continue to improve as a playmaker in the PnR and can run that more consistently in game at some point?Perhaps he’s also benefiting from fitting into the same mold as Luka, despite clearly being worse. I personally don’t want him at all.

    Sure, he’s a good flier late in the first round or a draft and stash pick in the 2nd, but picking him in the top 10 seems insane,

  169. Early Bird: Perhaps he’s also benefiting from fitting into the same mold as Luka, despite clearly being worse. I personally don’t want him at all.

    This makes sense. Everyone was looking for the next MJ (Harold Miner was the first in a long line, only Kobe really measured up) or Tall Euro (Weis? Bargnani? Vesely?) or Magic (Odom? Carter-Williams? Simmons?). Now everyone is looking for the next Luca…

  170. More than anything, that trade was a signal that Phil Jackson wasn’t beholden to CAA, which makes it ironic that it is the trade that is being used by Rose to justify hiring Brock Allard.

    I like going back to the threads from Phil’s first year to affirm just how much I gave Phil every benefit of the doubt that you could imagine. He was doing trades I didn’t like, but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he had some brilliant plan for the cap space that made it imperative that it be preserved. Then that offseason occurred, and it was clear that, nope, he was just a moron.

  171. It might be fair to say that people looking for the next Steph were seduced by D’Angelo Russell and Trae Young. Trae is really good, but is he more Steph or more Isaiah Thomas? Or something different altogether (better passer than any of them, but a really bad defender)?

  172. It might be fair to say that people looking for the next Steph were seduced by D’Angelo Russell and Trae Young. Trae is really good, but is he more Steph or more Isaiah Thomas? Or something different altogether (better passer than any of them, but a really bad defender)?

    Oh, that was totally the reasoning behind taking Trae.

  173. Oh man, all of those Orlando/Indiana/Chicago games back then were so amazing to watch (and then Miami games a couple of years later).

  174. Everyone should be looking for the next Luka. He managed to finish 5th in BPM as a high-volume scorer while jacking up 9 threes a game at 31.8%. His ceiling is “greatest offensive player of the modern era.”

  175. He doesn’t have what Bird, or Jordan, or LeBron had at 21, accounting for the era in which they played. He will never have what they had. My guess is that he’s probably very near his ceiling. But yeah, what he’s done at this point is certainly phenomenal. We’ll see.

  176. Yeah he doesn’t have that IT factor. He’s also lacking athleticism wingspan and chemistry. KP is obviously the better talent. Once they gel they will destroy worlds but first Doncic has to show that he has IT, the clutch factor, and show he’s at least as good as Rose was at that age when he was The Youngest MVP Ever. Who cares about stats when my eyeballs are testing. Euros are soft anyway. Kobe would have eaten doncic alive with his IT.

  177. I always thought Dragan Bender, drafted 4th overall despite not really having any kind of track record, benefitted from the relative success of another enormous European guy drafted the previous year who has been discussed here once or twice.

  178. He doesn’t have what Bird, or Jordan, or LeBron had at 21, accounting for the era in which they played. He will never have what they had. My guess is that he’s probably very near his ceiling. But yeah, what he’s done at this point is certainly phenomenal. We’ll see.

    I admittedly wasn’t alive, but my understanding is people said this kind of thing about Jordan himself when he was as young as Luka. The documentary touches on that a bit. Maybe give the 21 year-old legitimate MVP candidate a little time to prove he has whatever it is you’re looking for?

  179. wetbandit:
    Euros are soft anyway.

    Dirk was hard as a pornstar’s Dick during the Mavs-Heat finals.
    Got the ring without big3s or active allstars.
    Huge Balls.

  180. Yeah, Dolan is philanthropic. It’s hard to give him his due given how petty and vindictive he is all the time but it does have to be said.

  181. Tyson Chandler was probably the 2nd-best center in the league in 2011, but ok, I guess he wasn’t because he didn’t get an invite to the NBA’s All-PPG Break’s festivities.

    He doesn’t have what Bird, or Jordan, or LeBron had at 21, accounting for the era in which they played. He will never have what they had. My guess is that he’s probably very near his ceiling. But yeah, what he’s done at this point is certainly phenomenal. We’ll see.

    We’re all finding out that Z-man is celebrating 4/20 as in month-slash-year.

  182. thenoblefacehumper: I admittedly wasn’t alive, but my understanding is people said this kind of thing about Jordan himself when he was as young as Luka. The documentary touches on that a bit. Maybe give the 21 year-old legitimate MVP candidate a little time to prove he has whatever it is you’re looking for?

    I thought I kind of implied that I was giving him more time…but if we had to bet now, I would take the under. There’s also a few others he has to reckon with…Curry, Durant and Harden come to mind…to be considered “the greatest offensive player of the modern era.” Then there’es that LeBron guy…

  183. http://bkref.com/tiny/l0uTg

    There’s as big a delta between the 2020 Mavs (#1) and the 2019 Warriors (#2) as between the Warriors and the 1996 Bulls (#9). Doncic was 20 years old for the majority of the season and they were 34-20 when he played, 6-7 when he did not.

    Again, the 2019-2020 Dallas Mavericks were the #1 overall offense in NBA history and Doncic was, by far, the greatest contributor to it.

  184. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Tyson Chandler was probably the 2nd-best center in the league in 2011, but ok, I guess he wasn’t because he didn’t get an invite to the NBA’s All-PPG Break’s festivities.

    In 2010-11, Chandler had a BPM of 1.5 (60th in the league, 0.6 in the playoffs) and a VORP of 1.8 (74th in the league, 0.5 in the playoffs). Yet if I go back to that time, I believe I could find some of some prominent young poster touting him as definitively the best player on the Mavs (Dirk included) and one of the all-time great offensive centers.

    Tyson Chandler was no Mitchell Robinson.

  185. If Tyson Chandler is considered the 2nd best Center of the league then the Center position is in deep trouble.

  186. I’m gonna say this and run:

    We could’ve had Mitch, KP, and Wooten up front.

    Shit..

  187. I mean, I don’t even think Luka has ever even worked on his body yet vis-a-vis weightlifting and diet…

    And if what most posters here often assume is true, he’ll improve his outside shot as he ages. What’s scary about Luka is how he’s already a top-5 player (top-10 if you’re a pessimist) but actually has areas where he can improve.

    There’s no doubt that Avdija is a lesser talent than Luka at the same age, but nearly every player was – Luka was sort of a child prodigy in that respect.

    I think Deni can be decent, but he will be a role player and not a star. He doesn’t have the handle to be a primary facilitator like Luka, but he does seem like a very good passer and he rebounds his position well.

    I would be very disturbed by the free throws, though, as that has been consistently bad. He could easily become a craftier Knox, which isn’t good. If he shoots threes/fts well, defends his position, and becomes a secondary playmaker, he could become a Joe Ingles type, but that’s probably his ceiling.

  188. Dirk was hard as a pornstar’s Dick during the Mavs-Heat finals.
    Got the ring without big3s or active allstars.
    Huge Balls.

    Now I’ll never be able to look at that patented one-legged fade-away without thinking he had to develop it because squared-up jump shots were too uncomfortable. Thanks for that.

  189. Raven:
    Dirk was hard as a pornstar’s Dick during the Mavs-Heat finals.
    Got the ring without big3s or active allstars.
    Huge Balls.

    Now I’ll never be able to look at that patented one-legged fade-away without thinking he had to develop it because squared-up jump shots were too uncomfortable. Thanks for that.

    LOL !!!
    It’s called Natural Selection.
    You do your best with what you got.
    If you can’t spin, just Tip !

  190. I just caught up on the Last Dance and thought the first two episodes were very good. I think it’s going to be a good experience for younger fans that grew up on Lebron to see Jordan at his peak and see the difference in their competitiveness. I don’t think they are even on the same planet when to comes to sheer desire to win and ability to handle competitive adversity. If those two were on opposing teams and God told use they were equally matched in talent, I have no doubt Jordan would win virtually every series.

  191. >In 2010-11, Chandler had a BPM of 1.5 (60th in the league, 0.6 in the playoffs) and a VORP of 1.8 (74th in the league, 0.5 in the playoffs). Yet if I go back to that time, I believe I could find some of some prominent young poster touting him as definitively the best player on the Mavs (Dirk included) and one of the all-time great offensive centers.<

    lmao

    Chandler was a very good player and critical to Dallas's championship run.

    Dirk was all all time great player that virtually carried that team on his back to a championship. That was a legendary finals series and performance.

    Dirk is probably a top 25 all time player and I'm probably underrating him.

    Chandler is probably a top 25 all time Center and I'm probably overrating him.

    Anything that says otherwise is too ridiculous to waste the energy discussing. That wasn't the broken model era. It was the very broken model era when people were looking at Wins Produced and other such nonsense to value Dirk, Chandler, and Kidd .

  192. I don’t think they are even on the same planet when to comes to sheer desire to win and ability to handle competitive adversity.

    And what of those eight consecutive Finals appearances? Just LeBron out there chillin’?

    Is it because he naps so much?

  193. It’s hard to be mad at Dolan right now, as he’s donating plasma, extending the pay to employees for at least another month, and is not actively destroying the Knicks organization or reputation… is this a good omen for things to come? O_o

  194. Dirk was all all time great player that virtually carried that team on his back to a championship. That was a legendary finals series and performance.

    26-10 with a 537 TS% is a good finals performance.

    Lebron in 2017, in a losing effort in which his team won one game

    33-12-10 630 TS%.

  195. Who was a better basketball player at his peak is an interesting debate between Jordan and Lebron. They played in very different eras, so I don’t think you can definitively answer it either way. When it comes to who had a better NBA career it’s Lebron and it’s not even close because he played so much more high level basketball than Jordan.

  196. I dunno, for me, there was something about Jordan that was literally terrifying. Never felt that about LeBron, maybe because he seemed too nice, or too image-conscious, or too human. Jordan seemed like a total asshole who just loved to humiliate people, including teammates.

    But you look at the numbers and LeBron’s are just staggering. And bringing 8 straight teams, many with deep holes, to the finals…hard to argue with that.

    I guess you could get into the quality of teams each had to overcome….other than the Dubs, LeBron didn’t have to roll through a stacked, ferocious EC or monster WC finalists. There were a bunch of championship-caliber teams who never got there because they ran into Jordan. I don’t think that is as true for LeBron.

  197. LeBron has already played about 20% more minutes (reg. season and playoffs) than Jordan did in his entire career. If he plays three more years, he’ll be at about 40% more minutes. That’s got to be a factor when comparing their careers.

  198. >I dunno, for me, there was something about Jordan that was literally terrifying. Never felt that about LeBron, maybe because he seemed too nice, or too image-conscious, or too human. Jordan seemed like a total asshole who just loved to humiliate people, including teammates.<

    Under extreme pressure I've seen Lebron totally tune out and go into a coma at least twice in the playoffs. I can list 10 all time greats I've never see surrender like that. I've seen him dog a LOT of FTs in key situations where you knew he didn't just accidentally miss. His stoke was all off from the pressure. He choked the shots. I don't care if he was overmatched, under fire, or losing the series etc… the chances that Jordan would ever go into a coma, quit, or choke are zero. He might lose, but he'd go to an even higher level trying to beat you.

    In a close battle it comes down to who wants it more and who can overcome the pressure and fears of failure to execute at their highest level all the time.

    Day to day over 82 games, maybe Lebron adds more wins. In the playoffs It's not even close. Jordan is multiple levels over James. Jordan would crush his spirit and soul and spit him out. James would whimper into a corner and look for a new team and running mates to try to beat you.

  199. There are the numbers and the trophies and also there are the impressions and the feelings.
    There is also the peak of something and the decadence.
    Imo Jordan played incredibly intense basketball at the highest level on the peak of the league and left the impression that he was closer to God than to athlete.
    As a knicks fan i hated him but couldn’t deny that he was the best bballer i ‘ve ever seen.
    Lebron is a great player.
    MJ is God.

  200. Lebron is 3-5 in the finals typically beating up a terrible eastern conference teams to get there. He has a loss to a vastly inferior Dallas team, a win because Kyrie was great down the stretch of a game, and a win on a fluke ending against the Spurs where other players made the winning plays. He was teamed with another all time great in Wade and had Bosh who would be a #1 or #2 on any solid playoff team yet went 2-2 with then. That’s with a team that caused massive controversy because they had so stacked the deck in talent everyone thought it wasn’t fair.

    He’s a top 5 player all time and incredible all around talent, but he’s not on the same planet as Jordan and a few others among the all time greats in being able to close out hyper competitive games and series under extreme fire. His talent and skills will beat almost anyone every might, but not someone that’s just as good, fights back harder, and handles the pressure better.

  201. It’s funny that people like to say that Jordan never quit because he quit playing NBA basketball twice.

  202. >Oh, we’re getting peak eyetest Strat today.<

    No, we are getting aspects of winning and losing at the highest levels Strat,

    When two competitors are very similar in talent and ability, winning often comes down to who is tougher mentally and who wants it more and not some random bounces of the ball or minuscule difference is statistics. Jordan was WAY tougher mentally and as a competitor than Lebron. It's not even close. The closest thing I've seen to Jordan in any other sport is Rafa Nadal, but Rafa at his peak (as great as he was/is) wasn't as good all around at tennis as Jordan was at basketball. He was however unquestionably a mentally tough and competitive monster.

  203. Lebron’s teams have won 65% of the post season games he’s played in. Jordan’s teams won 66% of the post season games he played in. You can argue that peak Jordan was better than peak Lebron. I don’t think there’s a definitive answer to that question, but you can make a case. Saying Jordan was better because he was more intense or had better intangible winning sauce or whatever doesn’t really show up in the record. Jordan’s team never lost in the finals, Lebron’s team came from 3-1 down to beat the best regular season team of all time (apparently strat doesn’t consider the Warriors a team that handles pressure well).

  204. It does seem like Lebron gets kind of unfairly maligned because of the 3 for 8 thing. It seems a little unjust to penalize Lebron for that while simultaneously pretending that Jordan didn’t have better help than Lebron typically had.

  205. Since we’re all in on this apparently, here’s some random playoff comparisons. I ain’t commenting, just comparing.

    Jordan James
    G 179 239
    eFG% .503 .528
    VORP 24.7 30.8
    PER 28.6 28.3
    TS% 568 579
    WS/48 .255 .244
    USG% 35.6 32.2
    PTZ 33.4 28.9
    Strat 1 0.5

  206. Lebron is 3-5 in the finals typically beating up a terrible eastern conference teams to get there.

    Playoff runs, year, opponents + SRS

    1991 Bulls, 8.57 SRS (1st)

    Knicks -0.43 (15th of 27)
    Sixers -0.39 (16th)
    Pistons 3.08 (9th)
    Lakers 6.73 (3rd)

    1992, 10.02 (1st)

    Heat -3.94 (21st of 27)
    Knicks 3.67 (7th)
    Cavs 5.34 (5th)
    Blazers 6.94 (2nd)

    1993, 6.19 (4th)

    Hawks -0.67 (16th of 27)
    Cavs 6.30 (2nd)
    Knicks 5.37 (5th)
    Suns 6.27 (3rd)

    1996, 11.80 (1st)

    Heat 1.46 (13th of 29)
    Knicks 2.24 (10th)
    Magic 5.40 (5th)
    Sonics 7.40 (2nd)

    1997, 10.70 (1st)

    Bullets, 1.77 (13th of 29)
    Hawks, 5.51 (5th)
    Heat, 5.56 (4th)
    Jazz, 7.97 (2nd)

    1998, 7.24 (1st)

    Nets, 1.88 (14th of 29)
    Hornets, 2.45 (12th)
    Pacers, 6.25 (4th)
    Jazz, 5.73 (5th)

  207. It seems completely arbitrary to hold finals losses against LeBron, but not hold losses earlier in the playoffs against Jordan. Would LeBron’s legacy be better if he never made any of the finals he wound up losing? That makes no sense.

    I don’t really have a horse in this race, but it does bother me that all the pro-Jordan arguments tend to rest on the kind of nonsense Strat is peddling when there are perfectly good arguments to be made on both sides (prime wise anyway, shouldn’t be any debate about who has had the more impressive career now that LeBron is approaching two decades of elite play).

  208. Jowles, I think the argument is that the playoff teams themselves were generally better. We’ve gone on and on over the past decade+ about how lopsided the EC vs. WC situation is, e.g that the playoffs should be between the best 16 teams because the WC teams get screwed year after year. That wasn’t the case in Jordan’s time.

  209. I will say this. If we were having an intergalactic basketball war and you picked prime Jordan, I wouldn’t be bummed about getting stuck with prime LeBron.

  210. On MSG they’re showing the Knicks -Bulls game from 2012 where Melo won it with a 3 pointer.

    If I’m not mistaken, that might have been his only game winning shot as a Knick. And man, did he have a lot of opportunities, remember all those wonderful final Melo iso plays “drawn up” by Woodson at al?

  211. We’re bustin out, we couldn’t wait
    We’re bustin’ out ‘cause we’re too damn straight
    Now we’re all a little free to communicate
    And we’re all a little stoned and we freak when we’re at home
    And for me I only freak when I’m bustin’ out

    what’s up freaky folks…hope all is well for everyone…

    looks like the sesh is shut down…dang…fortunately got some business cards the last couple of times i visited…just got to work out the instagram thing (where you can buy stuff that ain’t “actually” for sale)…never really used that or twitter before…guess i gotta start catching up…unfortunately prices for this commodity go up about 30 to 50% when you step inside a storefront…

    been able to stay off the pills, never got much pass a few glasses of wine, slowing down on beer and wine altogether – it usually just dehydrates me real fast…

    the real trouble is though – i can’t really get high…i mean, i’m trying, but…things have been a bit busy at work, busy at home…when i’m real engaged in life, the adrenaline switch just stays stuck in the on position…it’s hard to mute that motherfucker…

    new thread time…

  212. Jowles, I think the argument is that the playoff teams themselves were generally better.

    Which is a nostalgic-old-man thing to say, with no evidence whatsoever. I’m not ascribing it to you, but still dismissing it as unproven.

    We’ve gone on and on over the past decade+ about how lopsided the EC vs. WC situation is, e.g that the playoffs should be between the best 16 teams because the WC teams get screwed year after year. That wasn’t the case in Jordan’s time.

    I’ll do LeBron’s Finals runs, at the cost of my work efficiency.

    2007, 3.33 (7th)

    WAS -0.80 (15th)
    NJN -1.00 (16th)
    DET 3.69 (6th)
    SAS 8.35 (1st)

    2011, 6.76 (1st)

    PHI, 1.00 (14th)
    BOS, 4.83 (6th)
    CHI, 6.53 (2nd)
    DAL, 4.41 (8th, which I’ve explained is a bit noisy due to them being total 2-and-9 dogshit when Nowitzki was out and recovering from his injury mid-season)

    2012, 5.72 (4th)

    NYK, 2.39 (11th)
    IND, 2.59 (9th)
    BOS, 2.26 (12th)
    OKC, 6.44 (3rd)

    2013, 7.03 (2nd)

    MIL, -1.83 (18th)
    CHI, -0.02 (14th)
    IND, 3.34 (9th)
    SAS, 6.67 (3rd)

    2014, 5.72 (4th)

    CHA, -0.89 (17th)
    BRK, -1.57 (20th)
    IND, 3.63 (8th)
    SAS, 8.00 (1st)

    2015, 4.06 (6th)

    BOS, -0.40 (19th)
    CHI, 2.54 (10th)
    ATL, 4.75 (4th)
    GSW, 10.01 (1st)

    2016, 5.45 (4th)

    DET, 0.43 (14th)
    ATL, 3.49 (7th)
    TOR, 4.08 (6th)
    GSW, 10.38 (1st)

    2017, 2.87 (7th)

    IND, -0.64 (19th)
    TOR, 3.65 (6th)
    BOS, 2.25 (8th)
    GSW, 11.35 (1st)

    2018, 0.59 (14th)

    IND, 1.18 (13th)
    TOR, 7.29 (2nd)
    BOS, 3.23 (7th)
    GSW, 5.79 (3rd)

    So the big takeaway for me is that while LeBron had some noticeably easier paths to the Finals, he usually had worse teams and generally faced the league’s best in the Finals. 2018 was particularly bad, even after all the trades, and he still had to put up a ridiculous 12.7 BPM over 922 minutes to carry them to a sweep loss against arguably the most stacked front six in league history.

    I simply refuse to ascribe to…

  213. LeBron the occasional failures of his front offices to construct an elite team around him. Even in Miami, Bosh was quite a letdown as a third-fiddle (1.3, 0.8, 1.3 and 0.8 BPM in his four seasons with LeBron) and Wade was 29 when their run began.

    None of this takes away from Jordan’s accomplishments. He was consistently the best player in basketball from 1987 through his first retirement, and then came back as an All-NBA first-teamer with a late-prime Pippen and a stacked team around him. You can blame those early playoff losses on his shitty team as much as you can LeBron’s Finals losses (for the most part). Jordan is probably a more consistent playoff performer, but man, LeBron’s peaks were really something. 2009 has yet to be surpassed by any individual player, and may never be. Still, bounced in the 2nd round!

    There have been a lot of incredible single-season and single-playoff performances in the NBA over the years. No one wins 72 games — or two three-peats — without a ton of help. You put an early-prime LeBron on the 1991 Bulls in Jordan’s place and I think there’s a good chance they win six in a row, too. (I believe that the Bulls would have won all eight had Jordan not been secretly suspended for gambling.)

  214. d-mar, believe it or not Melo hit a bunch of game-winners as a Knick not just that Easter Sunday vs the Bulls.

  215. Those SRSes are fascinating, Jowles. Boy, Lebron dragged some shitty ass teams to the Finals.

  216. d-mar, believe it or not Melo hit a bunch of game-winners as a Knick not just that Easter Sunday vs the Bulls.

    Hmm, I don’t think so BBA. My recollection is lots of forced last shots and lots of misses.

  217. the playoff teams themselves were generally better.

    Which is a nostalgic-old-man thing to say, with no evidence whatsoever. I’m not ascribing it to you, but still dismissing it as unproven.

    i was most certainly better back then…people actually wanted to see me naked…nowadays i’d either need to pay for the pleasure or risk incarceration to make that happen…

  218. He was consistently the best player in basketball from 1987 through his first retirement, and then came back as an All-NBA first-teamer

    This is really only true of his final year with the Bulls and the 17 rusty games in 1994-95. ’96 is Jordan’s 2nd best career season by WS/48 with .317, and he followed that with a league-leading .283 in ’97. His style was different, but the results show he was still the best player in basketball by different means (TOV% in those seasons was particularly insane given his offensive role).

    If he wasn’t the best player in the league those years, who was? Robinson? Malone?

  219. Yeah, I’d put MJ on top in ’96, arguably ’97 too. ’98 definitely not, though. His shooting fell off a cliff. Still an exceptional player.

  220. Hmm, I don’t think so BBA. My recollection is lots of forced last shots and lots of misses.

    I remember him hitting one very early on as a knock, like maybe his 3rd game, and I think it was at Detroit. He ran up the court shouting “I do this”.

    Then I think he blew every one after that until the bulls game. And usually it was a forced shot while double teamed when someone was open.

    Naturally this is the eye test but I’d be surprised if anyone can remember that many more game winners.

  221. I’ve seen him dog a LOT of FTs in key situations where you knew he didn’t just accidentally miss.

    I know this is just a variation of Strat’s normal “in the olden times/you damn kids/my damn lawn/Boomers are scientifically proven to have the biggest penises according to my Aunt George” argument, but I was curious so I looked it up! Regular season FT% followed by playoffs FT%, career averages.

    Steely, fearsome man of yore: .835, .828
    “Good,” weak baby of today: .735, .743

    CONCLUSION: Jordan was a better FT shooter than Lebron, but while Lebron steps it up in the playoffs Jordan caved like an insufficiently reinforced submarine in the face of the pressure.

    Also Lebron has taken 200 more freethrows in the playoffs than Jordan. He’s probably just bored with them.

  222. This is not NYK Melo, but here’s an article that had him as once the BEST game-winning shot maker in the NBA, and as of 2009, “Carmelo Anthony has slipped from the former top spot, but still a worthy challenger with the best fg% of any player with at least 10 makes.”

    I disliked Melo as a Knick as much as anyone, but I guess he might have wanted to amend that shout to “I did this.”

    https://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

    But it gets weirder. Just found this, from a 2020 Blazers game description: “Anthony has the most game-winners under five seconds since he first entered the league during the hailed 2003-04 season and if looking at the last 30 seconds of a game, he’s topping some of the best names in the past two decades.

    The Blazers vet has 26 game-winning field goals in the final 30 seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime periods, the most of any player since his rookie season. More than Kobe Bryant (22), LeBron James (20), Dirk Nowitzki (18) or Dwyane Wade (18).”

  223. The Clutch Melo narrative was a big thing. He had the best numbers in the league in Denver. In New York, he….. did not. It was something we talked about a lot, how he clearly felt he had a reputation to live up to that led to terrible late game decisions.

  224. Personally, I think the ’91 Pistons, the ’92 and ’93 Knicks and Cavs , the ’96 Heat, Knicks and Magic, and the ’98 Pacers were all better than any of the teams LeBron faced in his romps through the EC. Hard to defend this point of view beyond my own perception, but that’s the way I feel.

  225. That’s interesting that Melo was actually good at them, relative to the league. But they’re such bad shots overall and he so frequently created his own when it wasn’t necessary. When the best players are only hitting 25% you wouldn’t see the brawny players of old indulging in such pissantery.

  226. By my count Melo hit 5 game winning shots with less than 5 secs left as a Knick. That doesn’t include the shot vs the Bulls because that happened with about 8 secs left, I believe he hit 3 game winners with less than 20 secs left but more than 5 secs. This is all very unscientific but I think mostly accurate lol.

  227. Yeah, the definitions each of those pieces use for last-minute/clutch/game winners are all different, so there’s that. But it seems right that Melo used to be really good at it, then came to the Knicks and sucked. I do feel like I remember all 22 of the ones he missed WAY more than the 8 he made. I hated them so very much…

  228. “Yeah, the definitions each of those pieces use for last-minute/clutch/game winners are all different, so there’s that. ”

    This is right. It was his numbers close and late that really suffered as I recall. Everyone shoots a terrible percentage on game winning shots by and large.

  229. Another brutal decision by Giants GM Dave Gettelman. If he were a governor, his state would have 2,000,000 cases of coronavirus.

    Could have had chase young but we beat the Redskins. Could have had Isiah simmons but we drafted for need instead of BPA.

  230. Especially when there was no consensus on who the best OL is but there is a consensus on the best LB by far in this draft and GOD knows the Giants can use a playmaker at LB, haven’t really had one since Jessie Armstead although Pierce was really good.

  231. I don’t even think shooting % under __ seconds for a specific player is the best way to look at being good in the clutch. What I would really like to see is how times did Melo pass the ball in clutch situations and how many times he took a terrible shot.

    Regardless of what LeBron James shot, I bet his teams did well because if he got double teamed he passed to the open man. Again, I’m admittedly eye testing the fuck out of this. But I watched a lot of Knicks games and I’m pretty sure as a team we were shit in the final seconds with Melo, regardless of how his % stacked up to other stars.

  232. BigBlueAL:
    Especially when there was no consensus on who the best OL is but there is a consensus on the best LB by far in this draft and GOD knows the Giants can use a playmaker at LB, haven’t really had one since Jessie Armstead although Pierce was really good.

    Andrew Thomas may be fine. He may be Erick Flowers. I don’t really know. I do know he was not worth the #4 pick. Isiah Simmons was. If that’s the kind of guy you want, trade down.

    The worst part is we all knew Gettelman was going to fuck it up. I still can’t believe we don’t have a 3rd round pick this year bc of that Williams trade. Fuck this guy.

  233. Hubert:
    I don’t even think shooting % under __ seconds for a specific player is the best way to look at being good in the clutch.What I would really like to see is how times did Melo pass the ball in clutch situations and how many times he took a terrible shot.

    Regardless of what LeBron James shot, I bet his teams did well because if he got double teamed he passed to the open man. Again, I’m admittedly eye testing the fuck out of this.But I watched a lot of Knicks games and I’m pretty sure as a team we were shit in the final seconds with Melo, regardless of how his % stacked up to other stars.

    I wish Melo hadn’t passed to Jared Jeffries at the end of Game 2 vs Boston in 2011….

  234. Hubert: Haha. Touche.

    I’ll never forget that game cause that was the only time ever THCJ praised Melo for his performance lol

  235. He is a reasonable pick but an obviously better one was available.

    It’s like if Memphis passed on Ja Morant to take Jaxson Hayes bc they needed a big.

  236. Isiah Simmons shouldn’t have fallen to #8. He’s an incredible player, a defensive anchor. It’s crazy that he wasn’t a top 5 pick.

  237. So, at the press conference today, the President suggested people drink bleach…

    …Just like your average Christmas morning on Knickerblogger….

  238. “Another brutal decision by Giants GM Dave Gettelman. If he were a governor, his state would have 2,000,000 cases of coronavirus. ” ‘

    Ummmm…. NYS actually does have 2,000,000 people who have contracted coronavirus according to Cuomo today :-)

    You have 20,000 dead people in NY and somehow Cuomo is some sort of hero….lol.

    He wanted 7 times the hospital beds he needed and 6 times the ventilators he needed and all you guys were cursing Trump for only giving him 4400 which was MORE than he needed. Fuck Detroit and New Orleans…. we are New Yorkers and we deserve everything even though we were completely unprepared and spent almost a billion on windmill factories that go belly up. Nice work Governor.

    You are as wrong about this pick as you were when he drafted his franchise QB last year.

  239. I gotta be honest, I was a little surprised those big cats at the zoo caught the virus…

    I take that back…I was a lot surprised…

  240. This whole corona thing is almost worked out anyway. The “inject bleach” solution sounds really promising.

  241. “This whole corona thing is almost worked out anyway. The “inject bleach” solution sounds really promising.” That is commonly done to racehorses by he way…. sodium hypochlorite is a hell of a buffer and not easily detectable

  242. Drink bleach and live? I guess that one poster was confused years ago. Trump could have set him straight.

  243. it works on horses, ok?

    The only tricky part is getting the dosage right.

    I do think this comment will hurt Trump. It’s the wrong kind of stupid.

  244. bobneptune:
    “Another brutal decision by Giants GM Dave Gettelman. If he were a governor, his state would have 2,000,000 cases of coronavirus. ”‘

    Ummmm…. NYS actually does have 2,000,000 people who have contracted coronavirus according to Cuomo today :-)

    You have 20,000 dead people in NY and somehow Cuomo is some sort of hero….lol.

    He wanted 7 times the hospital beds he needed and 6 times the ventilators he needed and all you guys were cursing Trump for only giving him 4400 which was MORE than he needed. Fuck Detroit and New Orleans…. we are New Yorkers and we deserve everything even though we were completely unprepared and spent almost a billion on windmill factories that go belly up. Nice work Governor.

    You are as wrong about this pick as you were when he drafted his franchise QB last year.

    I agree with you on Cuomo and have said as much, here, already. You need to stop lumping me in with your “Greek chorus”. Sometimes I agree with you. Sometimes I agree with the people you disagree with.

    As for the picks…. I’m not a results driven person. If someone takes their life savings to a casino and puts it all on one hand of blackjack and gets a 21, I won’t say he made the right choice. So regardless of how last year’s QB turns out, I will not take an L on drafting a kid he could have gotten at 17 or maybe even in the second round at 4.

    Same with this year. I admitted Andrew Thomas could be really good. He was a stretch at #4 though. Isiah Simmons was the pick.

    Gettelman’s problem is not player selection. It’s understanding value. You defend him year after year and tell me how wrong I am, yet here we are drafting at #4 again, and likely to be back in the top 10 again next year. If I’m so wrong, why are the giants still so shit?

    Do you have a defense of the Leonard Williams debacle, as well?

  245. bobneptune: giving him 4400 which was MORE than he needed

    I am curious, what is the required number of Ventilators?

    There are 214 Hospitals in NYS. How many patients should they be able to treat?

    Point of clarification. Cuomo does not need ventilators, People dying from complications of Covid-19 need them.

  246. Also how about the fact that he gave a record free agent contract to a LT and has to use the #4 pick on a LT two years later? How does that fit your narrative?

    Imagine getting a player worth the money he gave to Nate Solder and getting a player worth the #4 pick! Instead we spent a fortune on a tackle worth 1/3 of that money, and passed on a game changing defender at 4 to take a guy who would have been a great pick at 10.

    And we don’t have a 3rd round pick (again) bc we traded it for a free look at Williama, who we now will pay a stupid amount of money to while Jadaveon Clowney remains available and could be had for the same one year deal.

    It’s about value, Bob. This guy consistently overpays for everything and that’s why their are holes all over the team.

  247. Here’s what we have:

    Saquon Barkley
    Nate Solder
    Daniel Jones
    Dexter Lawrence
    Andrew Thomas
    Leonard Williams

    Here’s what we could have:

    Saquon Barkley and extra picks from trading down to get him.
    Josh Allen (made the pro bowl in his rookie year)
    Daniel Jones
    Isiah Simmons
    The 4th pick in the 3rd round pick of this draft
    Enough cap space for a franchise LT
    Enough cap space for Jadaveon Clowney

    I don’t know, man. I’m not feeling being wrong on this one.

  248. That is commonly done to racehorses by he way…. sodium hypochlorite is a hell of a buffer and not easily detectable

    Hahahaha haha this dude is defending the “let’s try injecting bleach” idea

    Just take the L on this one homey

  249. Remember when people said Trump doesn’t really want to be president. I’m really starting to believe that is the case. That’s why he’s recommending people inject themselves with bleach, encouraging people via twitter to protest, etc. He knows his words and actions will most likely cause his own supporters to die and thus decrease his chances of getting re-elected.

  250. Literally everyone on KB except Bob right now:

    Here is Dr. Birx's reaction when President Trump asks his science advisor to study using UV light on the human body and injecting disinfectant to fight the coronavirus. pic.twitter.com/MVno5X7JMA— Daniel Lewis (@Daniel_Lewis3) April 24, 2020

  251. I wondered if Fox News would even cover the Lysol injection strategy. They did! Here’s the headline:

    Media erupt over Trump comments on disinfectant as coronavirus cure: Here’s what he said

    Let me annotate that.

    Media

    who are professional liars, as you know

    erupt

    that’s an emotional outburst, like a menstruating woman

    over Trump comments

    which came from Trump, so they’re either uniquely wise, deeply strategic or an intentional joke

    on disinfectant as coronavirus cure: Here’s what he

    actually

    said

  252. Maybe that Las Vegas mayor who wants her casinos open as a test group for ending social distancing should inject her staff and guests with bleach first. Two tests are better than one.

  253. THCJ, you do realize you’re a true American hero? All those posters you told to drink bleach are now immune from the corona virus.

    Well done, sir!

  254. Clearly the President is unaware that the only acceptable context in which it’s okay to tell people to consume cleaning products is if they say something like “Carmelo’s missed shots actually create a lot of opportunities for his teammates”

  255. I’m not going to even bother to google what this latest bru-ha-ha is, but I’m pretty confident that if I did, I would find something a lot less sinister than a video of Trump telling American people to digest bleach. Shit like this is why no one listens to the left, and why that idiot has a chance to get a second term.

    I did notice that CNN has taken to calling this “the Trump recession.” If that doesn’t destroy any ounce of credibility they might be able to claim they still have, I don’t know what will.

    By the way, RE: the last thing everyone here got up in arms about… Jared Kushner was right. NY did not need more ventilators. In fact NY is currently donating excess ventilators. Y’all took an L on that one.

  256. Is bleach finally going to be his watergate?

    I get that sexual assault, extortion, bribery and self-dealing are obscure concepts that are difficult for the american public to grasp.

    But drinking bleach? We may have a winner.

  257. OMG, Hubert, i have met you personally and think you are an alright dude. But your hot take just now is BobNeptune levels of awful. Please apologize for that post. It’s bad dude.

  258. About the only opinion I have this morning that’s stronger than Jordan > James is that the all the mainstream media outlets are intrinsically evil and the people that listen to them are dumber than a pile of rocks.

  259. Complete the full quote:

    “I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning? So it’d be interesting to check that. [Points to his head] I’m not a doctor. But I’m, like, a person that _______________.”

    1) has a good you-know-what
    2) breeds racehorses
    3) reads the comments sections of NBA blogs

  260. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
    OMG, Hubert, i have met you personally and think you are an alright dude. But your hot take just now is BobNeptune levels of awful. Please apologize for that post. It’s bad dude.

    If you show me a clip of Trump telling people to ingest bleach, I will apologize.

    Every time you guys say “This just happened,” I look at the clip, and I see that “this, in fact, did not just happen, but everyone is saying it did.”

    The Jared Kushner thing was just the last example. What he meant was obvious, and y’all collectively and willingly took his statement out of context to further your narrative.

    That’s not a defense of Kushner, who I think is scum. But call a spade a spade.

  261. I’m not going to even bother to google what this latest bru-ha-ha is, but I’m pretty confident that if I did, I would find something a lot less sinister than a video of Trump telling American people to digest bleach. Shit like this is why no one listens to the left, and why that idiot has a chance to get a second term.

    Take the L on this one, bud.

  262. >By the way, RE: the last thing everyone here got up in arms about… Jared Kushner was right. NY did not need more ventilators. In fact NY is currently donating excess ventilators. Y’all took an L on that one.<

    I don't know if this is true because the source is a mainstream news organization in the US (so it's most likely a lie, spun, half truth, incompetent reporting etc..) but it says that when Bloomberg was mayor he stockpiled ventilators and face masks on the off chance NYC would eventually be faced with a pandemic and De blasio auctioned them off. Here's one source.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/491651-new-york-city-auctioned-off-extra-ventilators-due-to-cost-of-maintenance

  263. Hubert, watch the freakin clip. He suggests injecting bleach as a cure. This man is the leader of the free world. His time on the podium is not supposed to be random guessings about cures. He should be spitting MISSION CRITICAL facts to guide the planet on how to handle the virus. that is the job of the POTUS.

  264. No, dude didn’t tell people to drink bleach.

    He DID suggest that injecting bleach or disinfectant might be something worth looking into. Which is really a special brand of stupid.

    I can’t believe we’re sitting here parsing all of this. This isn’t a media creation, this is some stupid shit that came right out of that dumb motherfucker’s mouth.

    Do keep defending it though, because that shit is hilarious.

  265. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Take the L on this one, bud.

    Every time you tell me to take an L, you turn out wrong and don’t admit it. How many times did you post a picture of Kevin Durant holding trophies back when I was the only one saying he was going to leave Golden State to get his own team?

    6 weeks ago you told me to stay in my lane when I recommended an alternative to a 3 month or longer lockdown. The counter arguments (not from you, from others) were always: “here’s a link to a piece of explanatory journalism that doesn’t understand either coupled risk or how one inconstant variable can render all this math moot.”

    Here we are now, on the wrong path, because we followed an imperial college study that wrongly believed you could extrapolate the numbers from the Lombard region and expect them to remain constant throughout the world. You guys are smart people.
    If I made that argument in a different context, you would rightfully tear it apart because its was dumb. But for some reason, in this context, appeal to authority is valid.

    Meanwhile Singapore and Hong Kong did what I suggested, and how is that working? You take the L, my friend! History is not going to say we did the right thing here. And Donald Trump being an idiot has nothing to do with that.

  266. Hubert, if you like, we can have a thoughtful discussion and revisit your take on early mitigation efforts. That’s fair game. But right now, you need to decide whether you are taking the L on bleach. It’s very simple. Do not obfuscate the issue.

  267. Every time you tell me to take an L, you turn out wrong and don’t admit it.

    You refused to watch the clip I posted or read the quote. And now you’re saying, “Why bother, because you won’t admit that I was right about the thing that I assumed but have no interest in fact-checking.” What in the fuck are you high on, today?

    How many times did you post a picture of Kevin Durant holding trophies back when I was the only one saying he was going to leave Golden State to get his own team?

    What in the fuck does armchair psychology about Kevin Durant’s inferiority complex have to do with you refusing to watch a video?

    Meanwhile Singapore and Hong Kong did what I suggested, and how is that working?

    What exactly do you think Hong Kong did to suppress the spread of the disease?

  268. Complete the full quote:

    “I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning? So it’d be interesting to check that. [Points to his head] I’m not a doctor. But I’m, like, a person that _______________.”

    1) has a good you-know-what
    2) breeds racehorses
    3) reads the comments sections of NBA blogs

    It’s going to be delightful when his supporters try to then argue “Biden has dementia!” in the fall.

  269. . Hubert, watch the freakin clip.

    Fine, I did.

    This is what I saw: a bumbling idiot said something preposterously stupid, then asked someone standing on the side if they were going to look into it, and was told no. It never came up again. He never suggested anyone do it.

    Am I wrong?

    The conversation should be: “Trump is so dumb, he had to ask someone if they were going to test bleach as a cure (he was told no).”

    The conversation is: “Trump suggests to the american people that bleach is a cure, they should consider using it, Lysol needed to issue a statement.”

    Come on, man. People are going to look at the conversation, they’re going to look at what actually happened, they’re going to see the difference, and they’re going to say “I am never paying attention to that conversation again.”

  270. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/lysol-manufacturer-warns-against-internal-use-after-trump-comments-n1191586

    “As a global leader in health and hygiene products, we must be clear that under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body (through injection, ingestion or any other route).” a spokesperson for Reckitt Benckiser, the United Kingdom-based owner of Lysol, said in a statement to NBC News.

    What the fuck does some “spokesperson for Reckitt Benckiser” know? They’re neither a medical professional nor the proud possessor of a really good brain. Ima go with the stable genius on this one.

    Unfortunately, all the local markets have been sold out of Lysol and every other brand of disinfectant for several weeks now, rendering that particular remedy unavailable to me for the time being. I do have a friend who suffers with Lupus, though. Maybe I can swipe some hydroxychloroquine out of his medicine chest next time I visit him.

  271. Hubert, when you get in front of a podium and address millions of people, you should prepare. If you want to know if bleach is effective, you ask that question before you get on stage. You do not use this incredibly valuable air time to guess at the cure.

    But alas, you have officially lost all of your credibility with anyone on this board who is *checks notes* not a complete fucking idiot.

    Z-Man, if you ever go to war with Hubert, you can consider me a friend. These times cause strange bedfellows.

  272. What exactly do you think Hong Kong did to suppress the spread of the disease?

    Exactly what I suggested nearly 8 weeks ago: stop the spread and protect the vulnerable without a total lockdown that destroyed the economy.

    You guys believed full lockdown was the only way to react, and now that we have more information, it is clear that you were wrong. Sweden is another country that avoided lockdown and is proving that you were wrong.

    And note: just because I think you’re wrong doesn’t mean I think Trump is right. There’s more than two choices here.

  273. Sweden has one of the highest per capita death rates from COVID in the world.

    Who are you and what have you done with Hubert

  274. You are insufferable. Hong Kong and Singapore had aggressive testing regimes. The strategy they employed doesn’t work because we don’t have the tests. And no, lack of testing isn’t a liberal governor thing. It’s a …… you guessed it …. Trump thing.

  275. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
    Hubert, when you get in front of a podium and address millions of people, you should prepare. If you want to know if bleach is effective, you ask that question before you get on stage. You do not use this incredibly valuable air time to guess at the cure.

    What makes you think I disagree with this?

    Here’s what I said:

    I’m not going to even bother to google what this latest bru-ha-ha is, but I’m pretty confident that if I did, I would find something a lot less sinister than a video of Trump telling American people to digest bleach.

    Was I wrong? Did Trump tell people that bleach is an effective cure?

    Don’t present a counterargument that I agree with and act like I don’t. That’s some straw man shit that I expect better from you.

  276. What the fuck does some “spokesperson for Reckitt Benckiser” know? They’re neither a medical professional nor the proud possessor of a really good brain.

    Not even a really good brain. A really good…you know…thing.

  277. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: This man is the leader of the free world. His time on the podium is not supposed to be random guessings about cures. He should be spitting MISSION CRITICAL facts to guide the planet on how to handle the virus. that is the job of the POTUS.

    Good job answering Hubert’s post 6 posts *before* he posted it. Man, I’m so tired of tha politcs-talk that invaded everywhere in society. Nobody admits to a mistake or backs off. I’m surprised people haven’t injected disinfectant yet and claimed they’re healed. It’s probably coming though.

  278. YES!!! You accidentally arrived at the point. Trump essentially told people that bleach is an effective cure. That’s how human interaction and interpretation and public speaking work. When you ask a question in such a forum, you are making a suggestion. Everything in our world is contextual. If you strip the context from any statement, you can always arrive at your pre-determined outcome.

  279. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
    YES!!! You accidentally arrived at the point. Trump essentially told people that bleach is an effective cure.That’s how human interaction and interpretation and public speaking work. When you ask a question in such a forum, you are making a suggestion. Everything in our world is contextual. If you strip the context from any statement, you can always arrive at your pre-determined outcome.

    I disagree vehemently with the part you put in bold, and that’s where we differ here.

    If someone watched that video and injected himself with bleach, good for the human race.

    Also, if someone is getting medical advice from the President instead of their doctor, I’m not shedding tears over him, either. No one needs to be watching these press conferences anyway.

  280. Stay 6 feet away from people not in your household, wash your hands, and talk to your doctor if you’re sick. And wear a mask if you need to go to a public place. That is literally all we needed to know to get through this. You don’t need to tune in to CNN or FOX or twitter or the fucking president. That shit is just fuel for your anger.

  281. JK47:
    Sweden has one of the highest per capita death rates from COVID in the world.

    Who are you and what have you done with Hubert

    Sweden is at 17.2 deaths per 100,000 while doing essentially nothing. New York is at 76.2.

    I’m not suggesting we should have done nothing, but we didn’t choose the right path.

  282. I’m shocked that you think your anti-quarantining take has been vindicated, Hubert. I mean New York alone has 263,000 confirmed cases (god knows how much higher the actual figure is) and over 15,000 deaths (same applies here). Both of those numbers would be exponentially higher if people were going to work, kids were going to school, etc.

    I guess my question is…how high are you okay with those figures, particularly the latter, getting in order to prevent economic damage?

  283. thenoblefacehumper: I’m shocked that you think your anti-quarantining take has been vindicated, Hubert.

    I was not anti-quarantine.

    I was anti canceling 6-12 months of the country.

    . mean New York alone has 263,000 confirmed cases (god knows how much higher the actual figure is) and over 15,000 deaths (same applies here). Both of those numbers would be exponentially higher if people were going to work, kids were going to school, etc.

    New Yorkers were running around up until around March 15th as if nothing was wrong. There’s space between locking everyone down and acting as if everything is normal. That was my take.

  284. Yes!!! You did it again! You accidentally arrived at the right point.

    Some percentage of people will take the president seriously. and they will die.

    But I guess you are right. We see the world differently.

    I think that every life on this earth is precious and should be treated with dignity.

  285. Brian Cronin:
    President Super Villain is a pip. https://twitter.com/PresVillain

    been thinking of you the last couple of days bc…got my boxes of comics laying all over the place as i go through them…not sure if you’ve had any extra time in your life (work, family, virus shit) to have a chance to go through any collection you might have…no doubt your probably a much bigger fan of comics and graphic novels than myself – are there any old storylines which you’ve been going through lately?

    about 90% of my collection was published between ’95 and ’05 – any suggestions for some of the more “mainstream” characters which may have some more recent interesting stories to go through?

    recently picked up this power ranger/teenage mutant ninja turtle cross-over for the kids which looked cool…also picked up this DC: “year of the villian: lex luthor” which looks really good…

  286. Guys, stop listening to doctors, epidemiologists, and other experts. This poster on the internet once predicted that KD would leave Golden State!!!

  287. are you okay with those figures, particularly the latter, getting in order to prevent economic damage?

    I am extremely ok with economic damage. Avoiding damage is not my concern. Public health is more important than short term economic impact.

    But I believe thorough economic destruction is worse for public health than the coronavirus, and that’s what these policies are putting in play.

  288. About the only opinion I have this morning that’s stronger than Jordan > James is that the all the mainstream media outlets are intrinsically evil and the people that listen to them are dumber than a pile of rocks.

    i normally watch cnn when i want to get freaked out about the country/world for a bit…but, i do try to make sure to visit all the different news outlets (AON still brings a smile to my face thinking that the first time i ever saw it – i was sure it was some comedy skit show :)…

    rachel maddow might just be my favorite talking news head…i love don lemon’s style in how he ridicules trump…but, yeah – there is most certainly a large dose of “hooray for our team/fuck the other side” on each and every news channel it seems…i don’t watch a bunch of the bbc stuff, so, i’m not really sure what slant they may have…

  289. Early Bird:
    Guys, stop listening to doctors, epidemiologists, and other experts. This poster on the internet once predicted that KD would leave Golden State!!!

    Doctors, epidemiologists, and other experts are saying what I’m saying, too. Try listening to Dr Amesh Adalja from the Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security. They don’t put him on the news because his takes aren’t hot enough, but I hosted a call with him on Monday and will likely do so again. I can get you the dial in information if you like.

  290. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:

    I think that every life on this earth is precious and should be treated with dignity.

    But you’re saying this while being indignant. And I would be surprised if you are treating the people who don’t want to be locked down with dignity.

    I don’t know where you’re going with this. It was my opinion that Trump said something stupid but not exactly what was being discussed here. I don’t think I’m wrong. And I don’t think the US is going to have a spike in deaths caused by bleach injection, but we’ll see.

  291. I am extremely ok with economic damage. Avoiding damage is not my concern. Public health is more important than short term economic impact.

    But I believe thorough economic destruction is worse for public health than the coronavirus, and that’s what these policies are putting in play.

    You didn’t answer the question. We’ve got 15,000+ confirmed deaths in New York alone. That number would undoubtedly be higher if we didn’t quarantine aggressively and take all the other measures you don’t like.

    What number are you comfortable with if it means avoiding “thorough economic destruction?”

    I’m not unsympathetic to the health effects of poor economic conditions–they’re well-documented and shape much of my worldview. But we can mitigate them to a large degree with stimulus, unemployment insurance, etc. (and if you don’t think we’re doing that aggressively enough, I’m right there with you). We have no similar ability to mitigate the public health effects of a fucking coronavirus. You can’t pass a bill that relieves fevers.

    Also, even putting aside economic hardship mitigation, you’re out of your god damn mind if you think more people will die from these economic conditions than would die if we just kind of ignored the whole coronavirus thing.

    Again, we’re talking about over 15,000 deaths in New York alone (and very, very, very much counting) with a near-total shutdown (albeit a late one) baked in. There’s no telling what that number would be if most people were still working, kids were still going to school, etc. You really think the number of deaths resulting from current economic conditions will be higher still? Or have you just dug into this shtick too much to back out now?

  292. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
    Some percentage of people will take the president seriously. and they will die.

    I’ll tell you what…. I will take the L when we see evidence that this is true, i.e. a rise in death count from bleach injection. How long do you think it will take for us to see that? Since people are listening to him, and that’s how communication works, it should be happening already, right?

  293. Good point, Hubert, I will take the L.

    For all the world, I take the L.

    I am not treating the “anti-lockdown” crowd with dignity. Instead, I prioritized the dignity of those with co-morbidities.

    Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, when my day has come, and you pass judgment upon me, please find it in your ultimate saucy wisdom to excuse my dismissal of the dignity of the anti-lockdown crowd beneath the dignity of those with co-morbidities. Also, in this lifetime, please give me the strength to treat the “anti-lockdown” crowd with true dignity, and in the immortal words of Hubertoinette, “let them drink bleach”.

  294. Exactly what I suggested nearly 8 weeks ago: stop the spread and protect the vulnerable without a total lockdown that destroyed the economy.

    Holy fuck do you sound dumb here! “Stop the spread!” “Protect the vulnerable!”

    Oh, okay! That’s a strategy! When I teach my friends chess, should I say, “All you have to do is do the checkmate?” Or when I was teaching English, “All you have to do is make the sentence?”

    Hong Kong has:

    (1) extremely high testing rates per person
    (2) mandatory testing for all people entering the administrative region
    (3) mandatory quarantine for all those who test positive upon entry
    (4) mandatory hospitalization to ensure that infected patients cannot spread the disease without being tracked
    (5) a pre-existing medical infrastructure from HK having dealt with deadly respiratory disease in the near-past

    You guys believed full lockdown was the only way to react, and now that we have more information, it is clear that you were wrong. Sweden is another country that avoided lockdown and is proving that you were wrong.

    Sweden!? Sweden is your success story? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

    Stay 6 feet away from people not in your household, wash your hands, and talk to your doctor if you’re sick. And wear a mask if you need to go to a public place. That is literally all we needed to know to get through this.

    Holy shit.

  295. All this underscores how fking ridiculous it is that we have no more-or-less unbiased media coverage in this country.

    Trump says fking stupid shit all the damn time. What’s funny is that his actions aren’t nearly as bad as you would think.

    The second problem, which is the BIGGEST FUCKING PROBLEM this country has (well, COVID’s actually killing people, so second biggest, temporarily)…

    IS THE COMPLETE LACK OF TOLERANCE PERVADING THIS TRIBALISTIC, FUCKED UP, FAR-RIGHT VS FAR-LEFT POLITICKING WE HAVE GOING ON. Trump never even fking mentioned the following words: ‘ingest,’ or ‘bleach’1 The way you geniuses are going on about it, you’d think he said ‘people should inject Clorox bleach into their bodies’… he was talking about testing. he was talking about, QUOTE: ” And I then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning. “ He was asking a goddamn question about testing for the possibility of using a disinfectant to clean a body, whatever the fk that means. He later said, “It wouldn’t be through injections, you’re talking about almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work”

    What is wrong with people that they feel the need to take the fking idiotic statement Trump said, and up it to the Nth degree? What he said was dumb enough.

    It’s like when that guy used fish tank cleaner and died and the mainstream media blamed it on Trump who said Hydroxychloroquine might be a cure. (BY THE FKING WAY: It is STILL being used in hospitals and ICU’s for COVID patients. He wasn’t wrong that it was A treatment, and a breakthrough at the time, as discussed by a preeminent epidemiologist in Marseilles. Now it looks less good… but guess what? CNN would RATHER say it SUCKS than give Trump any inch of suppport)

    The new suck, partisan politics suck, people on twitter suck, most…

  296. been thinking of you the last couple of days bc…got my boxes of comics laying all over the place as i go through them…not sure if you’ve had any extra time in your life (work, family, virus shit) to have a chance to go through any collection you might have…no doubt your probably a much bigger fan of comics and graphic novels than myself – are there any old storylines which you’ve been going through lately?

    The bulk of my collection is still in a storage unit that I thought I’d have emptied out in October of last year. But various nonsense (and now a pandemic) has kept it there.

    about 90% of my collection was published between ’95 and ’05 – any suggestions for some of the more “mainstream” characters which may have some more recent interesting stories to go through?

    Sure. Grant Morrison’s All Star Superman was end of 2005. His Batman run started in 2006, I believe. That’s worth getting, as well.

    Jonathan Hickman’s Fantastic Four run, then his Avengers run and now his X-Men run.

    Matt Fraction’s Hawkeye was a lot of fun. So was Mark Waid’s Daredevil run. And Ed Bruabker’s Captain Americas run (the Winter Soldier stuff in the movies comes from that run). And Jason Aaron’s Thor run (the upcoming Thor movie is based on Aaron’s run). And Vision by Tom King (the upcoming WandaVision TV series is pretty much based on that run).

    There are others, but those are the easiest ones to recommend. I also did a reader poll where people voted on their favorite comics of the 2010s. You can check that out here and see if anything strikes your fancy.

  297. What does everyone here think of Precious Achiuwa. Once Wiseman was done, I kinda stopped paying attention to Memphis

  298. Sweden is at 17.2 deaths per 100,000 while doing essentially nothing. New York is at 76.2.

    Sweden: 64 people per sq. mile

    NYC: 26,403 people per sq. mile

    now take the L you fucking hack

  299. thenoblefacehumper: What number are you comfortable with if it means avoiding “thorough economic destruction?”

    You sincerely think I have an answer to that?

    I’m not unsympathetic to the health effects of poor economic conditions–they’re well-documented and shape much of my worldview. But we can mitigate them to a large degree with stimulus, unemployment insurance, etc.

    No, TNFH, you can’t. You’re talking about destroying the thing that funds everything.

  300. Again, my point was not anti-quarantine or anti saving lives. My arguement was:

    There’s space between locking everyone down and acting as if everything is normal.

    We went from the mayor telling everyone to take the subway and go to movies and send all your kids to school to total lockdown in less than a week. It is time to explore the space between two extremes. If you want to argue me, argue against *that point*.

    All your studies and links are “this is what happens when we do nothing vs what happens with a total lockdown”.

    Every time I say “maybe we shouldn’t have a total lockdown” the reply is “this is what will happen if we do nothing.”

    Shit ain’t binary.

  301. Hubert, a lot of the country is interpreting Trumps words the way most of Knickerblogger and maybe not paying any attention to parsing their literal meaning. That means he shouldn’t have said what he did.

  302. What’s funny is that his actions aren’t nearly as bad as you would think.

    I don’t understand how you can be this clueless. First you say that racism was not a founding principle of the United States, now this.

    https://www.npr.org/2018/10/02/652563904/the-fifth-risk-paints-a-portrait-of-a-government-led-by-the-uninterested

    Christie would soon be fired from the transition effort by Trump adviser Steve Bannon; the work he and his team did, ceremoniously dumped into the garbage. Trump, Lewis writes, “was going to handle the transition more or less by himself.”

    And that has proved problematic. Nearly two years later, the Trump administration is still lacking some important components. According to a tally kept by the Partnership For Public Service and The Washington Post, of some 700 key positions in government, slightly more than half have been filled.

    Many vacancies have nominees awaiting Senate confirmation, and as of this writing, 153 of these key posts have no nominees whatsoever. For instance at the State Department, unfilled positions include what would seem like some pretty important jobs for the agency running the nation’s diplomatic efforts. There’s no chief financial officer or undersecretary for public diplomacy, no coordinator for threat reduction programs — and in the foreign service, there are vacancies at U.S. embassies in Ireland, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, South Africa, Pakistan and Turkey, to name a few.

    That’s just one department. No one has been nominated to run the Federal Aviation Administration or the Federal Highway Administration.

    That $715 billion defense bill the president brings up at each rally? At the Pentagon, the office of the principal deputy undersecretary for acquisition, technology and logistics, which would seemingly have a large role in determining how all the money is spent, sits empty.

  303. The bulk of my collection is still in a storage unit that I thought I’d have emptied out in October of last year. But various nonsense (and now a pandemic) has kept it there.

    they’re just so hard to display without taking up an entire room with tables and such…it breaks my heart a bit to think my collection might be headed to my garage…i’m trying to think of some type of shelf situation that might work…to be honest, all those plain white boxes themselves aren’t that great to look at…

    i need to figure out a way to make space and display certain stories, editions or complete runs…and, maybe rotate them, while the bulk of the boxes themselves are stacked out in the garage…

    Jonathan Hickman’s Fantastic Four run, then his Avengers run and now his X-Men run.

    You can check that out here and see if anything strikes your fancy.

    you rock bc…i’ll take a look through the list and get caught up with what’s going on…

  304. KnickfaninNJ:
    Hubert,a lot of the country is interpreting Trumps words the way most of Knickerblogger and maybe not paying any attention to parsingtheir literal meaning. That means he shouldn’t have said what he did.

    Or it means you shouldn’t be doing that.

  305. Or it means you shouldn’t be doing that.

    No, it means that if you are the President of the United States and thus have literally the largest platform on planet Earth, you should filter your words at least as carefully as the average fucking high school student raising their hand in class and not say anything that can be reasonably interpreted as “people might want to think about putting toxic chemicals into their bloodstreams.”

    Also, in an absolute shocker, turns out he likely got this cockamamie idea from one of the countless snake oil salesmen with the ear of the god damn White House.

    You sincerely think I have an answer to that?

    Yeah, well, you kind of need one if you’re going to try to make this ridiculous point.

    No, TNFH, you can’t. You’re talking about destroying the thing that funds everything.

    I mean, we just sent everyone $1,200. What’s the equivalent thing you could do if the economy was in better shape, but far, far more people had COVID-19?

  306. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: Z-Man, if you ever go to war with Hubert, you can consider me a friend. These times cause strange bedfellows.

      

    Nice try, asshole. I have a better idea…why don’t you make your own bedfellow and go fuck yourself?

  307. Hubert, a lot of the country is interpreting Trumps words the way most of Knickerblogger and maybe not paying any attention to parsing their literal meaning. That means he shouldn’t have said what he did.

    No one here actually believes that he said “drink bleach.” It’s a Knickerblogger callback to an infamous thread in which one young scamp told an ancient counterpart, on a holiday oft-shared among loved ones, to imbibe Clorox. We did, however, hear Trump say exactly this, because this is exactly what he said:

    So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful, light — and I think you said that hasn’t been checked but you’re going to test it — and then I said suppose you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting.

    Then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. Is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside? Or almost a cleaning, ‘cause you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it’d be interesting to check that. So you’re going to have to use medical doctors but it sounds interesting to me, so we’ll see but the whole concept of the light. The way it kills it in one minute, that’s pretty powerful.

    …which Trump is now walking back as “sarcastic.” And remember, as I said above:

    which came from Trump, so [his comments are] either uniquely wise, deeply strategic or an intentional joke

    It would be unbelievable had we not been so thoroughly conditioned to believe it. Quoth Trump:

    “I was asking a question sarcastically to reporters like you just to see what would happen,” Trump said.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/24/disinfectant-injection-coronavirus-trump/

  308. Yeah, well, you kind of need one if you’re going to try to make this ridiculous point.

    Can you tell me what is ridiculous about my point? And please do it without telling me what’s ridiculous about Donald Trump’s point or what’s ridiculous about a never-quarantine approach, since neither of those points were ever mine.

    I’ll give you a specific argument of mine that I haven’t made here yet, and you can tell me what’s ridiculous about:

    Pittsburgh could have been open two weeks ago. It has a strong medical community and sufficient testing capability. And its citizens are much more educated about social distancing and hand washing now than they were when all those numbers you cited were being accumulated. There is no need to continue keeping Pittsburgh in lockdown because of the problems in other parts of the country.

    I’ll hang up and listen.

  309. Or it means you shouldn’t be doing that.

    Have you read the quote yet? I posted it above. He actually said that. It’s captured on-camera. He said those words. Please spin some more.

  310. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Have you read the quote yet? I posted it above. He actually said that. It’s captured on-camera. He said those words. Please spin some more.

    I went and watched it. I think it was a very stupid thing to do and say. I think he’s very dumb. What more do you want from me?

    If you want me to say that there is suddenly a risk of people dying from bleach like NaNa suggested, I won’t. I draw the line there. I don’t think a person who would drink bleach based on that press conference exists, and I will take the L on that if evidence presents itself to the contrary.

  311. I’ll give you a specific argument of mine that I haven’t made here yet, and you can tell me what’s ridiculous about:

    Pittsburgh could have been open two weeks ago. It has a strong medical community and sufficient testing capability. And its citizens are much more educated about social distancing and hand washing now than they were when all those numbers you cited were being accumulated. There is no need to continue keeping Pittsburgh in lockdown because of the problems in other parts of the country.

    I’ll hang up and listen.

    Where are you getting the idea that Pittsburgh specifically has anything approaching South Korea-level testing capacity? And let’s put ourselves in the fake world where they do for a second–what’s their plan to completely isolate their major metropolitan city from the rest of the country? It doesn’t matter how educated you are regarding social distancing when you are forced to go back to work in conditions that do not allow for it.

  312. Early Bird:
    So Sweden has a Deaths/1 Million rate of 213, among the highest in the world

    It’s neighbors:

    Denmark: 70
    Finland: 32
    Norway: 37

    And here, Sweden’s economy isn’t exactly sparkling either:
    https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-economy/swedish-fin-min-says-economic-downturn-looking-worse-than-previously-expected-idUSS3N29P01D

    You’re crushing it today, man.

    I really mean it when I say I will invite you on the next call. I’d love to hear you ask Dr Adalja why he won’t listen to experts. And please treat him with the same assumption that he’s an idiot that you treat me with. That will be fun for everyone else listening.

    I have an email set up for communication on this blog: it’s hubertdaviskb@gmail.com. Send me your contact info, and I’ll get you on the next call.

  313. Hubert, the complete denial of anything gray or subtle is what defines the modern left these days. You’re never going to win.

    Guys, there’s room for someone to say “let’s talk about SAFELY reopening parts of the economy before it gets destroyed.” It’s not like this thing is going to last forever, right? The conversation is going to happen.. right?

  314. I’mma be honest.

    If some of these dumbshits who attended “open the economy rallies” catch COVID and then try to treat it by injecting bleach, that is probably a net positive for society as a whole.

    So in that light Trump’s comments were actually kinda smart

  315. Hubert, Sweden has performed much worse than it’s neighbors. Sweden didn’t close down, Norway and Denmark did. Norway and Denmark because they share a lot of similarities, including culture, geographical proximity, and population makeup (since we still don’t know how big an impact genetic susceptibility has on death rates yet). Numbers are Covid-19 deaths per million citizens and come from the covid dashboard which takes it’s numbers from the John Hopkins tracker.

    Sweden: 203.92
    Norway: 36.56
    Denmark: 68.71

    Sweden is not a success story. The US has obviously done far worse, but Sweden is also a warning that keeping things open kills people.

  316. Question: You were joking about solar, right?
    Trump: No, not joking, no. There is a chance that we can do a solar wall. We have major companies looking at that. Look, there’s no better place for solar than the Mexico border — the southern border. And there is a very good chance we can do a solar wall, which would actually look good. But there is a very good chance we could do a solar wall.
    One of the things with the wall is you need transparency. You have to be able to see through it. In other words, if you can’t see through that wall — so it could be a steel wall with openings, but you have to have openings because you have to see what’s on the other side of the wall.
    And I’ll give you an example. As horrible as it sounds, when they throw the large sacks of drugs over, and if you have people on the other side of the wall, you don’t see them — they hit you on the head with 60 pounds of stuff? It’s over. As cray as that sounds, you need transparency through that wall. But we have some incredible designs.

  317. Hubert, the complete denial of anything gray or subtle is what defines the modern left these days. You’re never going to win.

    Oh give me a fuggen break. I have a high paying job that’s in jeopardy because of the shutdown. You bet your ass I’m for opening the economy safely. So no, it’s not black and white and nobody is suggesting that we should leave everything shut forever until the virus is completely gone. Leave the straw man alone, he never did anything to you. He’s lying in the gutter with straw blood coming out of his straw ears, he has suffered enough.

    Better testing, contract tracing, give me some of that shit. I’m super down for all of that. Let’s not rush back without any of the data we need though! Because guess what happens then? We have to do all of this shit all over again.

    There’s some shades of grey for you.

  318. thenoblefacehumper: Where are you getting the idea that Pittsburgh specifically has anything approaching South Korea-level testing capacity?

    The hospitals in Pittsburgh.

    what’s their plan to completely isolate their major metropolitan city from the rest of the country?

    Why would they need to be isolated if they have the capacity to handle the pandemic? You can’t stop the coronavirus, people are going to get it. Even the craziest people aren’t suggesting we hide for 18-24 months until there is a vaccine.

    It doesn’t matter how educated you are regarding social distancing when you are forced to go back to work in conditions that do not allow for it.

    There you go again, inserting someone else’s point into the argument. I said open up with social distancing. Not force people to work within an inch of each other. “Opening up” does not mean “carrying on the same way we did in January”.

    There’s a lot of space between doing nothing and total lockdown. If I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying there isn’t, and it can only be one extreme or the other. “Total lockdown” or “forcing people to work in close proximity”, those are our only two choices, and we must pick one of them. I think *that* is the most ridiculous point in the world right now, and the fact that all of you believe it doesn’t persuade me that it’s right, especially when you’re unable to even address it.

  319. Oh hey, Early Bird got there before me. What I get for not refreshing. So much tumult today!

    Anyway, the estimate from the other day based on random testing by the state (very very peliminary numbers, huge bags of salt, ect) was the NYC has an infection rate of around 21%. Which gives a death rate of 0.78! Which is still very serious, but is better than some numbers were indicating.

    Still a really really long way to go to normal, but that’s a good sign.

  320. Or it means you shouldn’t be doing that.

    I’m sorry, but that is total bs. It’s not a question of whether someone smart can figure out it isn’t a good idea. It’s a question of how are people going to interpret it. A politician is responsible for the impressions he gives, the president especially Just because Trump can be confident you, Hubert, won’t go off and inject bleach, doesn’t mean it was fine he said that. Other people are obviously interpreting it differently. It doesn’t matter if they are wrong, Trump shouldn’t have said something that gave them the opportunity to believe that.

  321. Watching Trump flail around on this bleach incident is pretty hilarious.

    Now that he realizes he said something unfathomably stupid he is retconning that shit and reframing it as a sarcastic joke.

    It’s exactly the equivalent of Tommy Wiseau telling people he intended “The Room” to be a black comedy after people started laughing uproariously at it.

  322. Ok you guys are not understanding.. like anything. Huberts points are good. They’re being discussed by administrators and top experts, like, right now.

    The point of the lockdown is NOT to prevent infection, but to slow infection spread so hospitals can keep up.

    So- (with the exception of the elderly and those with conditions that will keep them home longer) people WILL get infected until we have herd immunity.

    Testing , as it exists anywhere right now, could not prevent the pandemic. It’s purpose is to (a) confirm infection for individual treatment purposes, (b) to quarantine the contacts of test-positive people so spread would slow. Now there’s a (c) test for antibodies for treatment.

    None of this will keep the virus from spreading until most people are immune, from infection or vaccine. Since a vaccine is at least a year away, you get the point.

    We will be going out and getting infected.

    So we will at some point be opening up and trying to do so in the safest way possible.

    You guys yelling down people like this is so fking stupid, I literally can’t.

  323. How many people think that the tough-talking, rough-riding, economy-opening, finance industry badass is out there volunteering to help those in need and putting his life on the line?

    Or … is he … safely working remotely at his finance job while …. demanding that mostly poor people and minorities go back to work and do things like ride public transit?

  324. I work on a TV show. By nature people are working in close proximity on a set. Not me— I’m in post-production— but many people. At any given time there are dozens of electrical engineers, lighting techs, sound guys, carpenters, camera ops, hair and makeup people, you get the picture. A whole fuckload of people.

    There is no way for this industry to run without massively improved testing. On-screen talent is not going to be willing to walk into an environment where there are dozens of crew people wandering around who may or may not be infected but there’s no way to really know because the testing is inadequate.

    This isn’t a niche industry in my town, TV and film production are the lifeblood of this city. There is not really a viable way to open up that industry without comprehensive testing and contact tracing.

    In other words my ass is probably out of a job unless California figures this shit out on her own.

  325. KnickfaninNJ: I’m sorry, but that is total bs. It’s not a question of whether someone smart can figure out it isn’t a good idea.It’s a question of how are people going to interpret it. A politician is responsible for the impressions he gives, the president especially Just because Trump can be confident you, Hubert, won’t go off and inject bleach, doesn’t mean it was fine he said that.Other people are obviously interpreting it differently.It doesn’t matter if they are wrong,Trump shouldn’t have said something that gave them the opportunity to believe that.

    I can’t state how many times I agree that he shouldn’t have said it and that it underscores a level of stupidity which frankly shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone at this point.

    Did he actually create enough of a danger that lysol needed to tell people not to drink bleach? This was the idea that I objected to.

  326. There’s a lot of space between doing nothing and total lockdown.

    That’s actually true! Unfortuantly what we are doing now is a long way from ‘total lockdown’. Total lockdown means you don’t get to leave your house. Cops hand out crippling fines to anyone caught outside without a permit. You get groceries and medicine delivered by schedule by a person in a hazmat suit. There’s no amazon delivery, no pick up/drop off laundry, none of that.

    What you’re advocating for requires rapid mass testing and contact tracing. Like, everytime you go into your office building you get tested on the spot with immediate results style of rapid mass testing. There’s probably a better way to do it, maybe documents of a clean test that expires in 3 days? I dunno, I’m sure people are working on options. But you also need effective contact tracing so we can stop outbreaks before they get going.

    In the absence of that any kind of sane reopening is going to look a lot like exactly what we’re already doing.

  327. What does everyone here think of Precious Achiuwa. Once Wiseman was done, I kinda stopped paying attention to Memphis

    almost 2 blocks per game…that’s sweet…we still need a point guard, but, hopefully we’ll head in the direction of BPA with someone who’s actually ready to contribute sooner than later…6’9″, 225 lbs from queens…sounds interesting at least…

    well, this has been a nice break today from all the recent basketball talk lately…

    let it out everyone, just let it out

  328. How many people think that the tough-talking, rough-riding, economy-opening, finance industry badass is out there volunteering to help those in need and putting his life on the line?

    I’m a physician typing this at a hospital. Dude. Come on.

    You’re not listening, people. You’re not listening to opposing points of view. They’re not even opposing. How many times does Hubert have to reiterate his statements?

  329. I can’t state how many times I agree that he shouldn’t have said it and that it underscores a level of stupidity which frankly shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone at this point.

    Did he actually create enough of a danger that lysol needed to tell people not to drink bleach? This was the idea that I objected to.

    Fair emough

  330. What I love about Trump’s disinfectant bullshit the most is that he waited, like, a full day before he decided that it was just him being sarcastic. So he let his media people defend his original statement as not bullshit, he let his water holders go out there in comments sections and blogs and Facebook and rail against the media for misinterpreting how Trump’s statement wasn’t really bad and then he comes back, a day later, with “No, I was just joking.” That’s some hilarious shit. I can only imagine his Press Secretary, “Damn, dude, you have to tell me the lie we’re telling before you let me tell them a different lie!”

  331. All joking aside, I’m kinda with Hubert as far as the overall danger of people consuming bleach. If somebody is stupid enough to Darwin themselves because they followed medical advice that was dispensed by Donald Trump at one of his MAGA rallies disguised as a press conference, well that’s kinda just too bad.

    That doesn’t mean I ain’t gonna indulge in some lulz at The Donald’s expense. I can’t imagine how tiring it must be trying to defend that dullard day after day. Most of my conservative friends (yes, I do have some) on social media aren’t even trying with this one, they’re just sitting it out and waiting for the next round. Taking the L, you might say.

  332. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay:
    How many people think that the tough-talking, rough-riding, economy-opening, finance industry badass is out there volunteering to help those in need and putting his life on the line?

    Or … is he … safely working remotely at his finance job while …. demanding that mostly poor people and minorities go back to work and do things like ride public transit?

    Oh, now I’m demanding poor people and minorities go back to work? Interesting. Here I thought I was just thinking we open up restaurants again in some cities (not New York) and get some limited projects that have been put on hold and don’t threaten anyone’s lives going again so some places didn’t have to go out of business and can continue employing people.

    BTW I don’t know if you know this but poor people and minorities never stopped going to work and have been riding mass transit for the entirety of this time because the list of essential workers in this state is absurd. I think there’s 62 million? That could be stale data.

    So, just to recap your position for you: it’s ok for our government instill a lockdown that forces minimum wage workers in NYC grocery stores and pharmacies to take the subway every day (bc they’re deemed essential for us to be able to stay home). But if I want a guy who has a business putting aluminum siding on houses in rural Pennsylvania to be able to go back to work to save his company, its employees, and their families, I’m some sort of animal.

  333. The Honorable Cock Jowles: It’s a Knickerblogger callback to an infamous thread in which one young scamp told an ancient counterpart, on a holiday oft-shared among loved ones, to imbibe Clorox

    Little did the grizzled sage know that the whippersnapper was merely suggesting a health drink in case someone at Christmas eve dinner happened to be infected with the COVID-8…

  334. I still love how I missed one game thread because it was Christmas and I later hear people talk about the bleach incident and I’m like, “Huh? How did I miss that?,” not thinking that it would have happened on a Christmas thread!

  335. It reminds me of another day when I was driving down to North Carolina for a big family get together on the outer banks, so I was on the road all day long and that just happened to be reub’s “What’s the big deal about rape?” day.

  336. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: Or … is he … safely working remotely at his finance job while …. demanding that mostly poor people and minorities go back to work and do things like ride public transit?

    I despise me some Hubert, but I have to call a flagrant 2 here. What one does in his/her job with his private time should be pretty much off limits here.

  337. Brian Cronin: What I love about Trump’s disinfectant bullshit the most is that he waited, like, a full day before he decided that it was just him being sarcastic.

    It was locker room talk.

  338. Real quick: it would help if people realized that communicable disease spread is exponential, not linear. I.e. by keeping someone quarantined, you’re are not just saving one hospital bed, you saving beds for the 2.0 to 2.5 people they infect and the next person infects, etc. This exponential growth is what will AND ACTUALLY ALREADY HAS overwhelmed our medical systems.

    Hopefully by taking this into consideration and given WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN, this can shed some light on the logic behind a quarantine.

  339. It’s exactly the equivalent of Tommy Wiseau telling people he intended “The Room” to be a black comedy after people started laughing uproariously at it.

    Such a good analogy.

    What one does in his/her job with his private time should be pretty much off limits here.

    IIRC I specifically told you to drink bleach because you strongly implied that I was a pisspoor educator, or at least lacked the moral character to be a good one… but carry on.

    ;)

    All joking aside, I’m kinda with Hubert as far as the overall danger of people consuming bleach. If somebody is stupid enough to Darwin themselves because they followed medical advice that was dispensed by Donald Trump at one of his MAGA rallies disguised as a press conference, well that’s kinda just too bad.

    I was angry that he began his gambit by saying, “I’m not going to read the thing you’re all referencing, but you’re probably misinterpreting it because that’s what you do.”

    When you start there, it’s gonna be a bad time.

  340. I mean seriously, jowles, that was some futuristic shit…did you experience some kind of orange-haired apparition during a teenage peyote binge?

  341. JK47: Better testing, contract tracing, give me some of that shit. I’m super down for all of that. Let’s not rush back without any of the data we need though! Because guess what happens then? We have to do all of this shit all over again.

    There’s some shades of grey for you.

    I think we have some commonality here. We may disagree on how much of this we already have. Some places have more of this than others. I mentioned Pittsburgh because it’s a healthcare hub of the country and it has enough furloughed government workers positioned to be retrained for contact tracing (which is actually not difficult to be trained for and doesn’t require medical workers).

    Even if I were completely callous and only cared about the economy, everyone who is invested in the economy (and I mean the economy, not the stock market) knows that the worst thing you can do is open up too soon and have to shut down again.

    But the goal wasn’t to stop anyone from getting it. The goal was to keep the hospital system from overloading. It never did. No one in NY was denied a respirator who needed one. The standard of care for every patient has been what it should be. If that’s what happened in NY, then other places without nearly the issues we have should be able to proceed with caution.

  342. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Such a good analogy.

    IIRC I specifically told you to drink bleach because you strongly implied that I was a pisspoor educator, or at least lacked the moral character to be a good one… but carry on.

    ;)

    Worse than that even. While I passed on the Clorox, I definitely took my medicine…

  343. One cruel irony is that it seems that nearly everyone who was put on a ventilator in NYC died anyway.

  344. Dude, if you had told me in 2012 that Donald Trump would be President of the United States, and somehow significantly dumber than the dumbest of the dumb students under my tutelage in first-year comp, I would have assumed that you had already been on Clorox therapy for decades.

    I had a grown adult write me an essay about how nectarine pits could probably cure leukemia — after his dad had just, mid-semester, died of it — and I would rather that he stand in front of the podium as the chief executive of this nation than Donald Trump.

  345. wetbandit: Hubert, the complete denial of anything gray or subtle is what defines the modern left these days. You’re never going to win.

    I appreciate the support, but let’s be honest: this isn’t a characteristic of the left. It’s the entire national conversation. I mean, just look at this blog. Some people think I’m a trump supporter and the most prominent Trump supporter thinks I’m a Bernie Bro. If you say anything that disagrees with someone, their natural instinct is to assume you belong in the other camp. It’s not a left or right thing.

  346. The Honorable Cock Jowles: I was angry that he began his gambit by saying, “I’m not going to read the thing you’re all referencing, but you’re probably misinterpreting it because that’s what you do.”

    When you start there, it’s gonna be a bad time.

    That was a terrible way to open my position. L taken.

  347. They’re not even opposing. How many times does Hubert have to reiterate his statements?

    Reopening restaurants in places that appear to have crested peak infections but are clearly still on the downslope is most defiantly and opposing viewpoint. It’s also a real fucking good way to jack those infections up higher than they were before. Assuming people actually go out, which seems iffy.

    Huberts points are good. They’re being discussed by administrators and top experts, like, right now.

    Hubert certainly seems to be saying that we should be doing this shit right fucking now, which is a far far cry from the people who are having constructive conversations about how we can most safely open things back up in the future when it is reasonable to do so. You should not conflate these two, extremely different, things.

    EDIT: definitely, not defiantly.

  348. Hubert: But the goal wasn’t to stop anyone from getting it.The goal was to keep the hospital system from overloading.It never did.No one in NY was denied a respirator who needed one.The standard of care for every patient has been what it should be.If that’s what happened in NY, then other places without nearly the issues we have should be able to proceed with caution.

    We checked the record books, and it turns out that it was a lie.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/health/treatment-delays-coronavirus.html

  349. Hubert: think we have some commonality here. We may disagree on how much of this we already have. Some places have more of this than others. I mentioned Pittsburgh because it’s a healthcare hub of the country and it has enough furloughed government workers positioned to be retrained for contact tracing (which is actually not difficult to be trained for and doesn’t require medical workers).

    My sister was a physician in a Pitt hospital. Pitt serves as a regional medical hub for western Penn. Have you ever taken a look at the obesity rate in western Penn? They have a nickname for it at the hospitals there. It’s called the Pittsburgh Unit. A Unit is 200 pounds. People are described by their weight in terms of Units. Obesity is a co-morbidity that turns COVID into a super plague.

    I don’t believe in God, but if I did, I would pray for the people of western Penn that nobody listens to Hubert’s crap.

  350. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: My sister was a physician in a Pitt hospital. Pitt serves as a regional medical hub for western Penn. Have you ever taken a look at the obesity rate in western Penn? They have a nickname for it at the hospitals there. It’s called the Pittsburgh Unit. A Unit is 200 pounds. People are described by their weight in terms of Units. Obesity is a co-morbidity that turns COVID into a super plague.

    I don’t believe in God, but if I did, I would pray for the people of western Penn that nobody listens to Hubert’s crap.

    Your sister’s bosses who run her hospital are the ones who told me this “crap”.

  351. Ok, I didn’t think anyone here was advocating opening right now.

    I’m discussing safely opening in certain areas that are way past their peak- NYC in a couple of weeks, probably- because the second round of COVID infection that starts when people get out IS going to happen, so I would slow it with mitigation measures (social distancing, no dining in restaurants, take out only, work from home whenever possible, etc). It’s worth talking about in more sparsely populated areas, like rural counties. I could be wrong, and open to hearing alternatives. But we’re obviously not shut down until a vaccine comes out. So then, when?

  352. All I know is this:

    My wife went to Target today and came home with a gallon of Clorox. My two-year-old saw her unpack it and said “thanks for buying milk, mommy.”

    Don’t try to tell me that Trump’s words don’t have an immediate effect on the underdeveloped brain!

  353. Hubert: This is an article about cancer patients who died because they couldn’t get their treatment because hospitals wouldn’t admit people at high-risk.Don’t you think that’s moving the goal posts?

    You said the hospital system isn’t overloaded. But in fact, the hospital system is overloaded. Would you like articles about delayed routine-vaccinations for young children? Because right now my 20-month old daughter is not getting her regularly scheduled vaccinations, which means entirely preventable diseases may kill her.

  354. ***What I love about Trump’s disinfectant bullshit the most is that he waited, like, a full day before he decided that it was just him being sarcastic.***

    So he was also being sarcastic about being “a person with a really good you-know-what”?

  355. wetbandit:
    Ok, I didn’t think anyone here was advocating opening right now.

    I’m discussing safely opening in certain areas that are way past their peak- NYC in a couple of weeks, probably- because the second round of COVID infection that starts when people get out IS going to happen, so I would slow it with mitigation measures (social distancing, no dining in restaurants, take out only, work from home whenever possible, etc). It’s worth talking about in more sparsely populated areas, like rural counties. I could be wrong, and open to hearing alternatives. But we’re obviously not shut down until a vaccine comes out. So then, when?

    Wetbandit, this above is a well-reasoned argument. I agree with your take here. This is the practice of nuance that you argued for previously. However, let’s be clear, this is not the approach that Hubert was advocating.

  356. I don’t believe in God

    oh yeah, baby…you’re on the fast track to hell with those kind of crazy thoughts…oh wait, you probably don’t believe in hell either…well damn, guess you actually got nothing to worry about then…you’ll end up just occupying some copy universe somewhere else caught up in all that weird quantum shit when you’re time here is done…

  357. Donnie Walsh: Donnie Walsh
    April 24, 2020 at 5:58 pm
    All I know is this:

    My wife went to Target today and came home with a gallon of Clorox. My two-year-old saw her unpack it and said “thanks for buying milk, mommy.”

    Don’t try to tell me that Trump’s words don’t have an immediate effect on the underdeveloped brain!

    DW’s wife: “No, baby, that’s for daddy…”

  358. geo: oh yeah, baby…you’re on the fast track to hell with those kind of crazy thoughts…oh wait, you probably don’t believe in hell either…well damn, guess you actually got nothing to worry about then…you’ll end up just occupying some copy universe somewhere else caught up in all that weird quantum shit when you’re time here is done…

    Wait, this isn’t hell?

  359. The lack of nuance also applies to covering competing parties. This is what Pelosi said today, you tell me it’s not dishonest: “The president is asking people to inject Lysol into their lungs and Mitch was saying that states should go bankrupt. It’s a clear, visible within 24 hours of how the Republicans reject science and reject governance”

    Also, if you look at Georgia’s reopening plan, it’s not actually as crazy as CNN is making it out to be. It’s even a little smart. Early, too early by a few weeks, but smart. There are so many rules to be allowed to open that it’s not even that bad. But it wasn’t even covered by the media.

    I’m nauseated by everyone in politics and newscasting.

  360. wetbandit:
    Ok, I didn’t think anyone here was advocating opening right now.

    I’m discussing safely opening in certain areas that are way past their peak- NYC in a couple of weeks, probably- because the second round of COVID infection that starts when people get out IS going to happen, so I would slow it with mitigation measures (social distancing, no dining in restaurants, take out only, work from home whenever possible, etc). It’s worth talking about in more sparsely populated areas, like rural counties. I could be wrong, and open to hearing alternatives. But we’re obviously not shut down until a vaccine comes out. So then, when?

    Yeah we’re talking about the same thing. Grocer misstated my position. I was also talking about rural areas, places that didn’t have outbreaks, and cities that can already meet the necessary medical standards.

    As you seem to know, we’re not waiting til we have a cure. Flatten the curve never meant we stop the spread, it meant some catch it now, some catch it later, but no one should catch it when we don’t have the capacity to care for them.

    The argument Grocer seems to want to make is that we should open up not when we have capacity to treat everyone, but when the disease goes away. I’ve not touched that, because it’s not going to happen.

  361. geo: What does everyone here think of Precious Achiuwa. Once Wiseman was done, I kinda stopped paying attention to Memphis

    almost 2 blocks per game…that’s sweet…we still need a point guard, but, hopefully we’ll head in the direction of BPA with someone who’s actually ready to contribute sooner than later…6’9?, 225 lbs from queens…sounds interesting at least…

    He’s got that big, strong and fast but can he learn how to play thing going on. He’ll probably help a fringe playoff team.

  362. Don Lemon et al’s rants are also so dripping with condescension (and dishonesty half the time) that I can’t watch more than a few minutes. Not that I can watch Fox News dry hump Trump posters all day, or MSNBC burn photos of him… but come on, CNN is supposed to be somewhat neutral… what am I supposed to watch, man?

  363. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: You said the hospital system isn’t overloaded. But in fact, the hospital system is overloaded. Would you like articles about delayed routine-vaccinations for young children? Because right now my 20-month old daughter is not getting her regularly scheduled vaccinations, which means entirely preventable diseases may kill her.

    I said no one who needed care for Covid-19 was denied the level they needed because we didn’t have beds, ventilators, or staff to attend to them. You pivoted to something entirely different.

    You don’t seem to be arguing with sincerity today. You seem like you just want to rage.

  364. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: Wetbandit, this above is a well-reasoned argument. I agree with your take here. This is the practice of nuance that you argued for previously.However, let’s be clear, this is not the approach that Hubert was advocating.

    It is literally what I advocated.

  365. I’m gonna go ahead and call bullshit on the claim that Pittsburgh specifically has some unusually high testing capacity that isn’t replicated anywhere else. I’m not sure you understand the kind of capacity that is needed to do anything like what you’re suggesting, Hubert.

    You need to test people who are exhibiting no symptoms, have not come into contact with anyone who has tested positive, and generally have no reason to believe they have the virus. I have heard nothing indicating Pittsburgh is there in terms of capacity.

    No one is saying there shouldn’t be conversations about how we can ease social distancing measures prior to a vaccine, but there’s a reason even Donald fucking Trump’s position is that doing so right now is far too early. We simply do not have the testing capacity to do so in a way that wouldn’t make us lose the progress we’ve made, and thus actually prolong the amount of time we have to spend in quarantine. There’s a lot more I could say on the matter but there’s not much more to it than that.

  366. “I am curious, what is the required number of Ventilators?”

    The required number is the number needed to accomplish the task. The entire USA inventory (federally) was around 10,000 and he gave NY 4,000 and then an additional , He had to hold some back for the other 315,000,000 Americans although he was roundly pilloried here a month ago for that wise decision. He actually played that perfectly.

    Unlike the famous “New Yorker” cartoon…. all people living west of the Hudson River aren’t valueless barbarians:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Steinberg_New_Yorker_Cover.png

  367. CNN is supposed to be somewhat neutral

    ha – that’s funny…it is soooooo leaning left…it’s a miracle you don’t have to put your ear on your shoulder just to watch,,,

    Don Lemon et al’s rants are also so dripping with condescension (and dishonesty half the time) that I can’t watch more than a few minutes.

    not that i’d wanna get him with or anything, but, dang ‘ol don is a good looking guy with a smooth voice…i guess though if i was to switch teams at this point, he might just be the one…

    yeah, no hidden agenda – it is way out in the open…and, you know – that is exactly what sells advertising spots…so, there it is…

  368. It is literally what I advocated.

    you have angered the mob, thirsty for some payback – your are the living embodiment of our not so esteemed potus…today is your day hubie :)

    if you got any lifelines left – ya better call in bob for backup…

  369. CNN is not neutral and Don Lemon is a television personality, not a journalist. You should not be watching CNN if you want to be informed. Is it as bad as Fox News? Absolutely not. Is it good for your brain? No.

  370. In response to a remark made by President Trump, officials across the country are having to warn people against ingesting cleaning products. On Friday, after receiving more than 100 calls to its hotline seeking more information about the president’s claim, the Maryland Emergency Management Agency advised residents against using disinfectant products to treat the coronavirus.

    “This is a reminder that under no circumstances should any disinfectant product be administered into the body through injection, ingestion or any other route,” the agency tweeted.

    The onslaught represented the most calls the state received on any single topic since the coronavirus pandemic began, said Mike Ricci, a spokesman for Gov. Larry Hogan (R).

    The Twitter account for the Washington state Military Department and Emergency Management division cautioned: “Please don’t eat tide pods or inject yourself with any kind of disinfectant.”

    The Milwaukee Health Commissioner announced that the city will have data on poisonings tied to disinfectant ingestions next week, according to several media reports.

  371. I typically stay silent on this board unless someone’s take is so terrible that I feel compelled to speak (feel free to diagnose me with a destructive hero complex).

    So yes, I am in a rage because your takes are reckless, so I am screaming into the internet void.

    Lots of people who needed care for COVID didn’t get it. Hospitals only admitted extreme cases. My daughter stayed home with a 104-degree fever because we didn’t want to go near a hospital. Claiming that NY was a success because everyone had a ventilator is straight-up MISSION ACCOMPLISHED territory.

  372. The problem with Trump and the idiotic things he says at his “press conferences” is that there is so much conflicting information being dumped on the public everyday. And people on all sides of the political spectrum are scared and confused. But instead of stepping back and letting his team of experts talk to America, he gets up and pretends that he’s the one that’s got all the good ideas.

    It’s like if Dolan came to the Knicks practice and started diagramming offensive schemes that involve Payton jumping back-and-forth across the half-court line while Mitch stands in the paint for 4 seconds, and Barrett uses the scorers table as a screen to get open. And when the players question the legality of his plays, he turns to the coaches and asks them to validate him while reminding them that he has a great you-know-what and that he likes to fire people. So they say nothing.

    Now imagine he does this in public, and that the success of the Knicks was the most important thing in the world to everybody, everywhere. Would Dolan have any supporters here? Would Hubert say “he’s just being harmlessly sarcastic”? Would Bob say “Donald Sterling was worse”? Or would everybody agree that he should put the best team of players, coaches, and managers together and get the fuck out.

  373. Raven:
    In response to a remark made by President Trump, officials across the country are having to warn people against ingesting cleaning products. On Friday, after receiving more than 100 calls to its hotline seeking more information about the president’s claim, the Maryland Emergency Management Agency advised residents against using disinfectant products to treat the coronavirus.

    “This is a reminder that under no circumstances should any disinfectant product be administered into the body through injection, ingestion or any other route,” the agency tweeted.

    The onslaught represented the most calls the state received on any single topic since the coronavirus pandemic began, said Mike Ricci, a spokesman for Gov. Larry Hogan (R).

    The Twitter account for the Washington state Military Department and Emergency Management division cautioned: “Please don’t eat tide pods or inject yourself with any kind of disinfectant.”

    The Milwaukee Health Commissioner announced that the city will have data on poisonings tied to disinfectant ingestions next week, according to several media reports.

    Hubert, will you now take the L? Critical resources are being used to combat this stupidity. Real people are calling in and wondering if this is legit.

  374. Hahahaha haha this dude is defending the “let’s try injecting bleach” idea

    Just take the L on this one homey”

    Are you really a school administrator? Can you read?

    I said clorox is injected into horses as a BUFFER. It is used as a sly way to circumnavigate the TCO2 test and delay lactic acidosis which causes fatigue (which is a bad thing in racing horses.)

    I posted it to say that large mammals can tolerate injections of clorox in small amounts. I wouldn’t recommend it without supporting clinical data.

    I AM curious, though…. when someone offers to buy you a drink in a bar and you accept, do you always order “Vinegar and water?”

  375. Yeah we’re talking about the same thing. Grocer misstated my position. I was also talking about rural areas, places that didn’t have outbreaks, and cities that can already meet the necessary medical standards.

    Well that’s a massive fucking walkback. Or are you trying to imply that you were in fact arguing for the same thing everyone else is arguing for? Cause that’s literally what wetbandit’s argument was. And I’m pretty sure you aren’t considering you’re advocated for opening restaurants. See that, that can only mean dine in because restaurants are already allowed to be open for takeout. Which, correct me if I am wrong here, wetbandit specifically repudiated in the post you said was the same thing as yours.

    I said no one who needed care for Covid-19 was denied the level they needed because we didn’t have beds, ventilators, or staff to attend to them. You pivoted to something entirely different.

    You said no one was denied care in NYC, which was a massive lie. The most charitable interpretation would be that you meant something more specific than what you actually said, but it’s real fucking rich to accuse people who took you at your word of shifting the goalposts while you’re carrying them down the field.

    The argument Grocer seems to want to make is that we should open up not when we have capacity to treat everyone, but when the disease goes away. I’ve not touched that, because it’s not going to happen.

    I explicitly said we need mass testing to be able to open things up in any real way in order to avoid a larger second wave of infections and deaths, but since you lack the reading comprehension to understand what you wrote yourself I suppose I shouldn’t assume you have the ability to understand what others wrote either.

  376. ***Are you really a school administrator? Can you read?***

    Not that it matters, and yes he can read, but JK47 is a keyboardist.

  377. thenoblefacehumper: I’m gonna go ahead and call bullshit on the claim that Pittsburgh specifically has some unusually high testing capacity that isn’t replicated anywhere else. I’m not sure you understand the kind of capacity that is needed to do anything like what you’re suggesting, Hubert.

    It’s a human resource problem.

    We’re not waiting until we have enough kits to test every civilian. You need to have the capacity to test the same number of civilians consistently and see a drop in the % positive. We’re going to extrapolate. But we have to keep the level consistent. You can’t be finding less cases because you’re testing less people.

    Pittsburgh didn’t have a lot of cases, so it doesn’t need a hard-to-procure amount of test kits. NYC had a lot of cases, it needs a lot of test kits.

    The bread and butter is in the contact tracing, and it’s dependent on the strength of each region’s local health department. It’s very resource intensive and requires a work force that needs to be ramped up considerably in most places. Some as much as 50%. If you happen to be in a city with a lot of medical students, like Pittsburgh, you have a distinct edge in your ability to produce the amount of workers your local health department needs to test and do the contact tracing and the lab work. It’s also not super hard to train people to do this, and we expect to be able to repurpose nonessential government workers to be part of that work force. That’s another area that Pittsburgh happens to have resources on hand for.

    You also need to have enough of a medical force so that you don’t divert medical resources from the rest of the community. Places with large medical university centers are going to have a distinct advantage in that area, too. You can use a student to do the contact tracing and let the cardiologist do what he’s supposed to do.

  378. Are you really a school administrator? Can you read?

    I said clorox is injected into horses as a BUFFER. It is used as a sly way to circumnavigate the TCO2 test and delay lactic acidosis which causes fatigue (which is a bad thing in racing horses.)

    Dude, I know you love the fragrant aroma of Trump’s farts but this was some dumb motherfucking shit the guy said. I don’t really give a fuck about Clorox being injected into horses and whether that is a viable procedure. This MF was talking out his ass, trying to sound all sciencey like he thought of some shit the doctors hadn’t considered.

    “You spray Lysol on the virus and it dies. Why not INJECT the Lysol? BOOM, CORONA CURE BITCHES, TRUMP 2020. LOOK INTO IT, BIRXY. YOU’RE WELCOME.”

    You don’t have to try to defend every dumbshit thing the guy says. Just let it go. Get ’em tomorrow, tiger.

  379. But the goal wasn’t to stop anyone from getting it. The goal was to keep the hospital system from overloading. It never did. No one in NY was denied a respirator who needed one. The standard of care for every patient has been what it should be. If that’s what happened in NY, then other places without nearly the issues we have should be able to proceed with caution

    I thought it was pretty obvious that I was talking specifically about the standard of care for Covid-19 patients when I said this. You can take your pedantic W, if you like, because I did fail to make this crystal clear.

  380. JK47 is a keyboardist

    JK is our music muse who makes me feel almost famous

    and, there is no substitute:
    BOOM, CORONA CURE BITCHES, TRUMP 2020. LOOK INTO IT, BIRXY. YOU’RE WELCOME

  381. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: Claiming that NY was a success

    I have consistently said that I think NY is the biggest failure in the world.

    But we did not run out of respirators. So Jared Kushner did hang an L on you.

    You only get to go to the stockpile when you run out. That was the point. I don’t like the man, but that was his point.

  382. Hubert: I thought it was pretty obvious that I was talking specifically about the standard of care for Covid-19 patients when I said this.You can take your pedantic W, if you like, because I did fail to make this crystal clear.

    But even this limited revisionist history isn’t true either! You are so close! Keep going!

    Because many people who would normally go to the hospital with flu-like symptoms simply didn’t go. They stayed home. We only had the necessary capacity because people STOPPED going to the hospital. How is that a victory? I mean, did the Knicks avoid losing any games in the month of April for the first time in franchise history? Sure, they absolutely did! But that would be a terrible metric for success.

  383. You don’t have to try to defend every dumbshit thing the guy says. Just let it go. Get ’em tomorrow, tiger.

    And then Trump says, “Yeah, that was intentionally dumb, I was just joking” after people bent over backwards trying to explain why it wasn’t. It must be awful to defend the guy’s dumb points and then have the guy himself go, “No, that was purposefully dumb. It was sarcasm.” I expect the next time Trump says something dumb and people defend it, Trump will say the next day, “Yesterday was Opposite Day.”

  384. bobneptune: The required number is the number needed to accomplish the task.

    Not really an answer. How can you state the ask was too much if you don’t have a measurable value for the demand? I worry about statements getting tossed around that sound like Cable TV Opinion outlet echoes.

    4,000 Ventilators is less than 20 beds per hospital in NYS. I don’t know what the right answer is, but projecting the amount of cases, 20,000 have died in NYS alone, and a quarter million known cases, 20 beds can fill up fast. So the ask was unreasonable vs the available inventory, and skewed as “greedy”, but perhaps reasonable for the projected demand. I can’t imagine the ask was made in a vacuum, without doing some sort of projection of need.

    I suppose its simple naive math on my part, but it passe the scouting eye test.

    Most of NYS is west of the Hudson.

  385. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: Hubert, will you now take the L? Critical resources are being used to combat this stupidity. Real people are calling in and wondering if this is legit.

    Nope. Sorry, I just don’t think a minimum wage phone operator qualifies as a “critical resource.”

    If that Milwaukee report shows a spike in bleach consumption, though, I will take the L. And it needs to be a spike, not just a number with no reference point. For all I know, there’s a baseline amount of people who drink bleach.

  386. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: We only had the necessary capacity because people STOPPED going to the hospital. How is that a victory?

    The first sentence is probably your first good point of the day.

    The second sentence is irrelevant bc I never said NY is a victory. I was making a distinction between people who think the point of lockdown is to end coronavirus vs the reality that it wasn’t. I get that you’re having a hard time answering my main point, because I’m right, so you’re either shifting the goal post or focusing on one thing you can find that wasn’t written well.

    I’ve said it 100 times and I’ll say it again: I’m advocating a solution between total lockdown for all parts of all states and going back to the way things were in January. If some people get that I’m saying that (and some definitely do) I know that if you think it’s something else, it’s not the message, it’s you.

  387. I’d rather inject Lysol and die of acute toxicity than read this virus of a thread again

  388. this is game over right? right? right?

    wait, what…there’s a game going on…here…what’s the prize?

  389. Hubert, you wrote the following: “Did he actually create enough of a danger that lysol needed to tell people not to drink bleach? This was the idea that I objected to.”

    The answer again is yes. He did create the danger. And now government agencies are responding to it.

    You keep writing that I read your posts too literally. But this is how the process of argument works. You make assertions, and then you build on those assertions to form claims. The problem here is that your underlying assertions are false. Thus, your claims are weak.

  390. ma scheduled us for the nasal swab thing next week…i have mixed feelings about going to go do any test unless it’s to tell me whether or not i have the antibodies…i guess it’s better to know…i’m surprised i’m this hesitant to want to do it though…

    still a bunch of things i’m not sure about regarding the virus…number one is that i heard that contracting the virus and getting over it may not guarantee immunity going forward (i’m not really sure why – cuz it mutates?)…

    i remember also hearing at one point, early on i think, that the probability of contact over the next year or so was around 80% of the US population…i’m not sure if that’s still true though…supposedly only about 5% of us at this point have come in contact with the virus…

    i mentioned it earlier – but, kind of freaked me out a bit that those tigers and a lion at the bronx zoo have the virus…that’s a disturbing thought that this thing can pass between species at this point…i don’t know – i didn’t think that was a normal thing with viruses…i guess maybe it is…

  391. NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay: You keep writing that I read your posts too literally.

    No man. I keep writing that you are making things up. Like this. Go back and read this entire fucking thread (seriously, you deserve to) and find me one instance where I said you are taking me too literally.

    There was one post where I called you pedantic but admitted my writing was less than crsytal clear.

    Anyway, like it or not, we’re doing what I’m advocating. You’ll probably agree with it when it happens and not even understand that it’s what I advocated.

    I need to cook dinner and have sex with my neighbor now. Good night.

  392. I need to cook dinner and have sex with my neighbor now. Good night.

    oh yes, we soooo need zoom…i want in on hubert’s world…

  393. Ok, you literally wrote this: “Stay 6 feet away from people not in your household, wash your hands, and talk to your doctor if you’re sick. And wear a mask if you need to go to a public place. That is literally all we needed to know to get through this.”

    You even used the word literally, which is a double word score for me.

    The problem? This is wrong too! We actually need to do way more than what you wrote in this post. Examples include testing and contact tracing.

    Except you don’t concede this point until we rip out all your teeth later in the thread. I had to drag you kicking and screaming to the most basic points. Again, your underlying assertions are usually false.

  394. sssshhhh NahNahNahWeAreGoingTheOtherWay…mister hubie has more pressing matters on his agenda…

    quarantining ourselves a bit from the news – may lead to a much more pleasant evening for all…

    how ’bout them knicks :)

  395. i think dave gettlemen is really weird for sitting in an empty room (in his house i presume) with a mask on…

    i wish we had picked up a linebacker yesterday…safety today not too bad (Xavier McKinney out of Alabama)…

    i just have so little faith in dave gettlemen…cuz, well, whenever he speaks he sounds like a doofus…

    23rd in offense last year, 27th in d…i think the giants are only marginally ahead of the knicks in terms of roster construction…

  396. The Jets got players at positions of need that were highly ranked. Though other than QB and S every spot is a spot of need.

  397. “Not really an answer. How can you state the ask was too much if you don’t have a measurable value for the demand?”

    The federal inventory was designed as a back up supply. It was incumbent on the individual states (and in NY the Governor has all the power over number of beds, hospitals and machines such as CT, MRI and ventilators in the state inventory).

    Cuomo through his prioritizing windmills over ventilators left the in jeopardy. He knew full well the backup for the entire nation was 10,000 and he asked for all of it.

    That is unreasonable on its face, unless you believe New Yorker deserve to live and everyone else in America deserves to die.

  398. “i think dave gettlemen is really weird for sitting in an empty room (in his house i presume) with a mask on…”

    The man recently recovered from cancer after chemotherapy and has a compromised immune system and he has young tech guys in his house for the logistical support…. hence the “weird”{ mask

  399. Following this thread has been like watching two fat, exhausted palookas throwing lame haymakers in the fourth round of an undercard bout at a Knights of Columbus lodge in Toledo Ohio, circa 1972. Or maybe the fight before Rocky Balboa and Spider Rico.

    Get the fucking hook already.

  400. It would have made more sense than a 3rd safety on a team with soooooo many other holes. But they do have two more picks this round.

  401. So far it’s been a decent draft for the Jets, no real head-scratchers. Baun is a bit small. They seem pt be prioritizing big, athletic project guys over smaller technique guys.

  402. The task then is developing them. Not a historic strong point, but these are new people so I will hope.

  403. The man recently recovered from cancer after chemotherapy and has a compromised immune system and he has young tech guys in his house for the logistical support…. hence the “weird”{ mask

    hmmmm, thought i had heard they shipped everyone their shit to hook it up themselves – although i’m doubtful gettlemen could even connect to the internet without some help…

    to be honest, if it wasn’t the mask i’d have simply found something else to deride him for, cuz, the team sucks and he’s even more of a condescending dick than am i…

  404. i like the peart pick…skipping on simmons still burns from yesterday…being pissed at fumbling away the chance at young (within the division no less) ain’t going away any time soon either…

    bob’s making me feel guilty now though…i’m going back to being kinder, gentler geo…

  405. “i like the peart pick…skipping on simmons still burns from yesterday…”

    I’m guessing Daniel Jones and Saquan Barkley are pretty happy with the OT choice :-) It’s pretty hard to be a competitive offense if you can’t block it up…. Now if he can find a center…….

  406. The goal was to keep the hospital system from overloading. It never did.

    It’s not a pedantic W, and you’ve placed the pedantic mask on the wrong face. The goal was to keep the hospital system from being overwhelmed and unable to to provide the care they normally provide. The system ended up massively overwhelmed, a huge failure, and not just in NYC. NY State’s estimate for Covid-19 deaths includes people who weren’t tested but showed symptoms. Total deaths over that period are still significantly higher than typical after discounting the covid-19 deaths, despite the fact that massive economic contractions historically reduce mortality. Not many traffic related deaths, for instance. That discrepancy exists in a lot of other places in the US as well.

    But to your credit, based on what you meant if there’s a pedantic W here I suppose it belongs to you. You and Kushner, providing you believe the numbers on ventilators. There’s not much reason to do so, since at best it means other types of patients went without. Whatever. Glad you’ve come around on the need for mass testing and contact tracing.

  407. i’m guessing Daniel Jones and Saquan Barkley are pretty happy with the OT choice :-) It’s pretty hard to be a competitive offense if you can’t block it up…. Now if he can find a center…….

    I ain’t gonna bullshit bob, I don’t really pay that close attention to details when it comes to my favorite teams…maybe a little bit with the yanks…but, even that’s years ago…

    I’ve watched a handful of giants games over the last 3 or 4 seasons…just got tired of watching them lose….

    if it wasn’t for ya’ll, I’d have probably stopped caring about the knicks years ago…

    I’d say this though about gettlemen, I just don’t have a lot of faith in him…sure barkley is great, and jones in of himself (discounting his draft position) seems like a good pickup – both high character, face of a franchise type people…but, drafts and free agents, coaches – the whole picture thing, it just seems like the game has moved past him…

    call it age discrimination, but, he doesn’t seem right for the job – today, and, if the team doesn’t make some strides in the next two years, he’ll be gone…

    I’m too lazy to look at which gm’s are successful, but, seems if you can’t get an existing good GM, go young at least…

    despite a super bowl appearance, I’m not sure he did that great a job in carolina…

    and yeah, turns out he did have some tech in the room with him…

    gotta love belichick chilling on nantucket letting his dog take his seat…

  408. Glad you’ve come around on the need for mass testing and contact tracing.

    Oh, I came around? There was a point in this where I said we don’t need to test or do contact tracing?

    I’ve never seen straw men and incomprehension to the degree I’ve seen with you and NaNa. I can’t engage the two of you, you’re both utterly dishonest and insincere.

    I gotta give credit to Z-Man. He may think I’m a fucking moron but at least he understands what I’m saying before telling me I’m an idiot. You two, I just can’t any more. Jerk each other off and be done with it.

  409. Hubert: It’s a human resource problem.

    We’re not waiting until we have enough kits to test every civilian.You need to have the capacity to test the same number of civilians consistently and see a drop in the % positive.We’re going to extrapolate.But we have to keep the level consistent. You can’t be finding less cases because you’re testing less people.

    Pittsburgh didn’t have a lot of cases, so it doesn’t need a hard-to-procure amount of test kits.NYC had a lot of cases, it needs a lot of test kits.

    The bread and butter is in the contact tracing, and it’s dependent on the strength of each region’s local health department.It’s very resource intensive and requires a work force that needs to be ramped up considerably in most places. Some as much as 50%.If you happen to be in a city with a lot of medical students, like Pittsburgh, you have a distinct edge in your ability to produce the amount of workers your local health department needs to test and do the contact tracing and the lab work.It’s also not super hard to train people to do this, and we expect to be able to repurpose nonessential government workers to be part of that work force. That’s another area that Pittsburgh happens to have resources on hand for.

    You also need to have enough of a medical force so that you don’t divert medical resources from the rest of the community.Places with large medical university centers are going to have a distinct advantage in that area, too.You can use a student to do the contact tracing and let the cardiologist do what he’s supposed to do.

    ^ yeah, this is a guy who doesn’t believe in testing or understand contact tracing.

    Perhaps Bob hit the nail on the head and you two are so NY-centric that you can’t even conceive that someone is thinking of places that aren’t NY or large cities.

    I’m not sticking around to find out.

  410. bobneptune:
    “i like the peart pick…skipping on simmons still burns from yesterday…”

    I’m guessing Daniel Jones and Saquan Barkley are pretty happy with the OT choice :-)It’s pretty hard to be a competitive offense if you can’t block it up…. Now if he can find a center…….

    I expect Thomas to be a good tackle bc I trust Gettelman’s ability to identify talent. But he was projected to go between 10 and 15. There was a special player available at 4. I agree with everything you’re saying about his fit and what he’ll do, I just hate passing on a special player to draft for need at #4.

    I’m curious if you have a defense of his decision to give up the 4th pick in the 3rd round for a free look at Leonard Williams. Or what about the fact that we’ve now used the #4 pick on a position occupied by our highest paid player, and the trickle down effect of wasting so much resources on one position.

  411. “I expect Thomas to be a good tackle bc I trust Gettelman’s ability to identify talent. But he was projected to go between 10 and 15. There was a special player available at 4. I agree with everything you’re saying about his fit and what he’ll do, I just hate passing on a special player to draft for need at #4.”

    I really don’t get this position. The Giants are bereft of OT’s. You can’t run an offense without the edge protection and lack of drive blocking they have. They needed to land at the very least a starting right tackle in this draft if they want to keep Jones alive for the year.

    You may say Thomas was projected to go 10 – 15 but clearly the Giant staff though him by far the best tackle prospect in the draft. The logic was clear…. he dominated in the SEC for 4 seasons facing the best pass rushers in college football. They had tons of film on him and thought him the best OT in the draft. And in that film he bitch slapped Josh Allen when they faced eachother.

    The 3 most valuable positions in the NFL are QB, edge rusher and LT. They don’t need a QB. and edge rusher wasn’t available so they went for the best player at the most valuable position.

    Clearly the were willing to trade down if something was available in the top of the draft where they would still grab a OT they loved. Thomas “might” have been the only one they loved but there wasn’t a team 7-12 or so that was willing to pay for Tua or Herbert

    Just for an example… would you feel comfortable picking Beckton who checked into Louisville at 390 last season?. His dad runs about 420 or so and his mom is was over 200 and is a professional soul food chef. What are the chances this kid goes keto and becomes buffed. Better chance he eats himself out of the league

  412. Hubert: I gotta give credit to Z-Man. He may think I’m a fucking moron but at least he understands what I’m saying before telling me I’m an idiot.

    You know things have jumped the shark when you and your chief adversary invoke the Z-man as the voice of reason.

    PS I don’t actually think you are either a moron or an idiot. Just an abrasive, condescending, self-righteous, unapologetic, and often tedious blowhard. Not that I’m perfect in any of those regards, but man, your soapbox is fucking gold-plated.

  413. You asked about Nate Soldier….. it’s been pretty ugly.

    However while they did over pay him about 20% to market value in 2018, you really didn’t want Eli Manning being protected by Erick Flowers, did you on the left side?

    He was their most glaring need (LT). He was 29 years off coming off 7 seasons keeping Brady upright against the best competition in the league. The had a glaring need and they fill it with a player that everyone loved at the time.

    That he injured his neck in 2018 training camp and the played through an ankle injury that necessitated surgery at the end of the 2019 season where he missed all the OTAs for 2020 and almost ended up on the pup list I don’t see how that is the GM’s fault.

    They certainly overpaid about 20% at the time, but they needed a plug n play LT after the previous regime had left the cupboard completely bare.

  414. “PS I don’t actually think you are either a moron or an idiot. Just an abrasive, condescending, self-righteous, unapologetic, and often tedious blowhard. Not that I’m perfect in any of those regards, but man, your soapbox is fucking gold-plated.”

    Wow…. Earth to pot…… Earth to pot…. we have a black kettle here with your name on it……

  415. bobneptune: Wow…. Earth to pot…… Earth to pot…. we have a black kettle here with your name on it……

    First nice day we’ve had in a while…all kinds of slimy things are crawling out from under rocks.

  416. Hubert I’m an IM resident in St Louis, I did Med school in Boston and a lot of my friends are residents in NYC and Boston right now. Hospitals were certainly overwhelmed and the standard of care, even for Covid patients was certainly shifted in some ways. You had lots of people practicing outside of their specialty, that’s one way. A classmate of mine from high school’s father died without their family even being informed he was being placed on a ventilator — keeping family’s up to date is part of the standard of care, at least at my hospital.
    The take the left exaggerates everything And everything was just hunky-dory in hospifals (which I’m sure you’ll walk back but is what you implied) is a particularly bad one and kinda offensive.

  417. Sorry I reread you comment, I guess I’m being a bit sensitive and your point wasn’t that we were making too big a deal, it was that maybe other places can relax their social distancing because even NYC wasn’t overwhelmed. That’s still wrong because your premise was wrong (NYC hospitals were overwhelmed, even if ventilators were not explicitly rationed).

  418. ^ yeah, this is a guy who doesn’t believe in testing or understand contact tracing.

    Good work quoting the post where you actually come around to the necessity of this as proof that I’m not reading you right when I said good for coming around. I’m sure when you were saying things should open up now and how GA was only a little early despite the fact that neither of those things are available is actually an example of how you’ve always believed in mass testing and contact tracking. Keep walking that shit back, watch out for the steps.

Comments are closed.