NY Post: Knicks hire Kentucky’s Kenny Payne as first addition to Tom Thibodeau’s staff

From Brian Lewis:

The Knicks confirmed Kenny Payne as the first addition to Tom Thibodeau’s new coaching staff, prying away John Calipari’s longtime right-hand man and bringing him from Kentucky to the Garden.

“I’m thrilled that Kenny has joined my staff as an assistant coach. He has an outstanding ability to forge relationships with players and improve their skills,” Thibodeau said in a statement. “He knows what it takes to win and has learned from one of the best coaches there is in John Calipari. Kenny will be a tremendous addition to our organization.”

Payne had spent the past decade working under – and winning with – Calipari, promoted to associate head coach in 2014 and helping the Wildcats to the first 38-0 season in college basketball history just a year later.

But the 53-year-old also has longstanding relationships with not only Knicks president Leon Rose, but senior vice president William Wesley.

Rose had been Calipari’s agent at CAA, where Wesley also worked. And Payne’s ties with “World Wide Wes” stretch back decades, all the way to his days playing for Louisville.

This is a fair enough move. Payne’s a well regarded coach. Hard to worry too much about the assistant coaches on the teams. Let’s just get to the lottery!

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364 thoughts to “NY Post: Knicks hire Kentucky’s Kenny Payne as first addition to Tom Thibodeau’s staff”

  1. I always get a little queasy when a guy gets promoted for his ability to motivate and forge relationships with no mention of his actual coaching acumen. I’ve always been a major skeptic of Kentucky basketball as I find they’re rarely a well coached group, and I don’t know how much development guys can do in a program as one-and-done candidates. Color me skeptical, but we shall see. I’d have much rather taken a guy from Villanova, Wichita State, or even Duke.

  2. Did you read the leader or the full feature? Just curious.

    I read the whole article. At the end they talked about how there are commercial real estate funds with lots of money that need places to invest and they suggested that this pool of money would drive the real estate market up again and also provide professional property management. I am very skeptical of this argument. That is where I think they may be optimistic.

  3. The Glass Half Rebuilt:
    I always get a little queasy when a guy gets promoted for his ability to motivate and forge relationships with no mention of his actual coaching acumen. I’ve always been a major skeptic of Kentucky basketball as I find they’re rarely a well coached group, and I don’t know how much development guys can do in a program as one-and-done candidates. Color me skeptical, but we shall see. I’d have much rather taken a guy from Villanova, Wichita State, or even Duke.

    I agree with you to an extent, but the NBA is largely a “do superstars want to play for you” league. If Rose can make the Knicks appealing then it’s worth it.

    Plus one of the knocks on Thibs from his Minn tenure was player buy-in. If Payne can improve that he’ll be worth it.

    Also I don’t read player-relationships as excluding the ability to be an excellent coach. On the contrary, I think connecting with players and getting them to to trust your adjustments goes a long way to improvement. You can pretty much copy/paste form improvement and drills.

  4. I always get a little queasy when a guy gets promoted for his ability to motivate and forge relationships with no mention of his actual coaching acumen.

    Every article I’ve read on Payne suggests that he’s good at all the things you want: development and X’s and O’s on top of the relationships and motivational stuff. I’m skeptical of his ability to lure superstars here, but I can’t wait to see him coach up Mitch, and to see if he can salvage anything of Knox.

  5. Is is fair to say that this is another very logical move by Rose? That he has yet to make a move that is befuddling or that reeks of inexperience?

  6. Harris gets the VP nod. The VP search turned out like the Knicks HC search. A whole lot of names and they went with the person we knew they’d go with back in March.

  7. Brian Cronin:
    Harris gets the VP nod. The VP search turned out like the Knicks HC search. A whole lot of names and they went with the person we knew they’d go with back in March.

    I like it. Let’s get the monster out of office first and then we can get to work on a more progressive agenda second.

  8. Really smart choice by Joe. She’s got some blemishes like everyone else, but she’s close enough to being moderate to not alienate independents, and has a “tough on crime” history to mute the Defund the Police rhetoric. I’m happy to not have to worry about a lesser known choice having skeletons in the closet.

  9. Z-man:
    Is is fair to say that this is another very logical move by Rose? That he has yet to make a move that is befuddling or that reeks of inexperience?

    Part of me wonders if Rose just has the connections to build a hype machine for his tenure regardless of the underlying talent.

    None of this means much until we see what he does with the players. He has an open checkbook for the coaching staff, that’s not the case with players.

  10. Early Bird: Part of me wonders if Rose just has the connections to build a hype machine for his tenure regardless of the underlying talent.

    None of this means much until we see what he does with the players. He has an open checkbook for the coaching staff, that’s not the case with players.

    Of course. But the hiring of the best available coaching candidate and a very strong support team…coaches, scouts, player development, capologist, etc., there seems to be a very transparent and measured approach thus far that is, at least for me, very refreshing and promising. He might fail, but at least the approach seems logical and in good faith.

  11. None of this means much until we see what he does with the players. He has an open checkbook for the coaching staff, that’s not the case with players.

    I disagree. No matter what he does with players, unless he pulls off a miracle trade or signing, the Knicks are going to have a lot of young players at least some of whom need to get better for the Knicks to thrive.

  12. Z-man: a very strong support team…coaches, scouts, player development, capologist, etc., there seems to be a very transparent and measured approach thus far that is, at least for me, very refreshing and promising. He might fail, but at least the approach seems logical and in good faith.

    But this is what I mean by the Rose hype machine.

    I have literally no idea if any of these people are as advertised or how to evaluate them. We’re just taking someone’s word for it.

    KnickfaninNJ: I disagree. No matter what he does with players, unless he pulls off a miracle trade or signing, the Knicks are going to have a lot of young players at least some of whom need to get better for the Knicks to thrive.

    Rose can sign player development coaches until he’s blue in the face. If he goes out and re-ups with Portis for 3 years at the same price, then I really don’t give a damn about the development coaches.

  13. I think you can both say, “Their hires so far have been logical picks” and also “Their player choices will say a lot more about the front office than anyone else they’ve hired so far.”

  14. Glass Half Rebuilt,

    I’m not sure how closely you follow Kentucky basketball but I am a rabid UK fan as my family is originally from Lexington. And I think the perception that Cal is just a good recruiter is really unfair and I think you’re statement is 100 percent wrong (with all due respect).

    Yes, they get great recruiting classes. But then those players leave after one season and usually their recruiting classes are really good one year and then just ok the next year. But one thing is consistent with UK under Coach Cal. The team gets better as the season goes on and by February/March the team is playing their best basketball and the individual players have all gotten better as the season goes on.

    There have been so many seasons where I’ll be talking to my dad at the start of the season and he’ll be like “they aren’t going to be that good this year.” They’ll start out the season in the fall and lose some games and look kind of shaky. But by the end of the year they’re so much better and they’ll go further in the tournament than most people thought they would at the start of the season.

    I think Cal (and Payne by extension) do a great job of working with the kids and making them better and I think that is a huge reason why Coach Cal gets some of the best recruits so often.

  15. Well there have been 3 low-level personnel moves…Trier, Pinson, Harper…all are defensible, although I liked Trier.

  16. Early bird…come on now?

    You have no way to tell if they’re any good?

    Thibs is one of the most accomplished coaches in the NBA. Payne has worked at the top basketball program in the NCAA.

    Sometimes when people have good coaching records and work for good programs its because they’re actually….good.

  17. swiftandabundant:
    Early bird…come on now?

    You have no way to tell if they’re any good?

    Thibs is one of the most accomplished coaches in the NBA. Payne has worked at the top basketball program in the NCAA.

    Sometimes when people have good coaching records and work for good programs its because they’re actually….good.

    I’m specifically not talking about Thibs.

    When someone says x is a great capologist or so-and-so is a great minor component of this organization, I have no idea how you evaluate those statements. Generally there’s a press release saying they’re good and we just accept it.

  18. I hope this doesn’t mean we’re going to reach on Tyrese Maxey. I know he’s a guard, but…

    I’m sure Nick Richards will get a camp invite though. But this does seem like a ploy to get Mitch the college coaching he never had… from AD’s teacher no less.

    So if they can’t sort out the Mitch/Randle frontcourt this year, I guess they never will.

  19. i feel like we won the kenny payne sweepstakes…of course i didn’t know there was a kenny payne sweepstakes until a couple of days ago, but still, good job working with the press and good hire by rose…

  20. Hey Mr. Towns, how about you take your talents to the big apple?

    Don’t you guys have that coach I hated playing for?

    Yes, but we have an assistant coach you like!

  21. hopefully we’re going to move past the point of imagining the big superstar agent coming to sign with the knicks…sadly little has been said by some of the new folks to dispute that notion (fuck you steve stoute), but, some of the hirings seem to indicate an emphasis on scouting and player development – although to be honest, we did have openings after firing previous folks…there’s not much chance when can do much worse in those areas than what we’ve accomplished recently…

    a lot of the teams within the bubble have acquired their players other than luring them in as free agents…

    yes way big negative is our owner, really big positive though is we’re not strapped for cash…which means we can have good people and systems in place…

  22. Early Bird: When someone says x is a great capologist or so-and-so is a great minor component of this organization, I have no idea how you evaluate those statements. Generally there’s a press release saying they’re good and we just accept it.

    I’m still waiting for anyone the Knicks hire to come with a press release saying he’s only mediocre or for a head coach to say something bad about an assistant that he was basically told to hire. lol

    Of the guys they’ve been about hiring (other than Thibs/Miller because we know them well), I feel pretty good about this one because he comes out of a winning organization. That’s not much to go on, but in our position it’s better than nothing.

  23. Honestly I am still hoping beyond hope that we find a superstar or two (or at least really good players like Mitch) via the draft like most contenders do. I thought we finally had that in KP when he went on that November rampage….alas.

    Let’s just develop what we have, make smart draft picks with the 10 picks in the next 4 drafts and low-level acquisitions, and stay away from the starf**king for a bit. I am dying to see who we pick this year.

  24. Porzingis 16 points in the 1st quarter on 6-9 shooting scoring on 3s, lobs, post ups, P&R, and FTs. I think he might be better than DSJr.

  25. Porzingis 16 points in the 1st quarter on 6-9 shooting scoring on 3s, lobs, post ups, P&R, and FTs. I think he might be better than DSJr.

    weird how you didn’t have a whole lot to say about his 9-24 game against the Bucks

  26. you think???

    orrrrrr, was that some subtle sarcasm that wasn’t really subtle at all…

    yeah, if you’re counting the top one hundred fuckups since the turn of the millennium for the new york knicks – kp has definitely got a spot…

    at this point, i don’t really hold any grudges against him…if anything i’m a little upset at luka for doing luka kind of things this year (and probably next) to dampen the value on those draft picks we got for kp…

    he did give us a brief period of hope and respite…i wish kp well…as long as his interests don’t conflict with ours…

  27. Z-man: Let’s just develop what we have, make smart draft picks with the 10 picks in the next 4 drafts and low-level acquisitions, and stay away from the starf**king for a bit. I am dying to see who we pick this year.
      

    This is the kind of stuff I disagree with.

    Saying we “have to” clear space to get stars is a bad strategy (especially when you suck and it’s very likely to fail), but saying we should just draft and develop players is not optimal either. IMO, the idea is to allow the values in the draft, trade, and free agent markets and our opportunities within them to dictate what we should do. We should NOT decide what we are going to do first and then limit ourselves to that specific strategy.

    If we can get a star in a reasonable deal or as a FA, we should do it and celebrate. If not, stay the course and see what happens over time as we draft, develop, and improve where we can in any way we can that makes sense. We just have to try accumulate good assets and maintain the flexibility to make the bigger deals when/if they become available.

  28. The Honorable Cock Jowles: weird how you didn’t have a whole lot to say about his 9-24 game against the Bucks

    He was having a good game that day, but imo he wore down late. I mentioned it a few days ago. I don’t think he can play 36 or more minutes a night and be as effective as he would be per minute if he played around 25-30. It’s not obvious to me if it’s a pacing issue, a conditioning issue, or related to his anemia condition. However, I see the pattern way too often for it to be random. He looks great in stretches and then he looks dead tired in stretches. It’s usually late in the game, but sometimes it’s after expending energy on both sides for a few possessions at any point in the game. He wouldn’t be the first big man with stamina issues, but he’ll have to learn how to pace himself better so he can come with big plays when it matters down the stretch if he can’t get in better shape.

  29. If we can get a star in a reasonable deal or as a FA, we should do it and celebrate. If not, stay the course and see what happens over time as we draft, develop, and improve where we can in any way we can that makes sense.

    I don’t think anybody is really opposed to this.

    Getting good players who fit in with our win curve? Hell yeah! Get a true star player who we can build around? YASSSSSS. If not, as you say above, “stay the course and see what happens over time as we draft” and the rest of it.

    You seem to conflate “add assets that fit in with our win curve” to “tank forever and only add players in the draft until it all works out.” Ain’t nobody saying that though.

  30. wow, the grizz better hope the bucks are sitting a bunch of their players on thursday, otherwise, they may not even get a chance at a play in game for the 8th seed…

  31. Stan Van G has been very critical of Porzingis’ defense in the pick and roll.

    And Lillard is ridiculous.

  32. As chairman of the RJ Barrett Fan Club, I would be ELATED to see Memphis and New Orleans miss the play in game.

  33. This is the kind of stuff I disagree with.

    You’re, what? 60? 65? Why don’t you watch a few more decades of basketball before you start opining about a game you lack any real understanding of. The trick is, you have to watch the game with your eyes, and use your memory to contrast plays with one another. Then, you use your brain to interpret what happened on the court however I want. I learned that from Albert Spalding. Complete nonsense of course, Spalding was notorious for being an idiot. I once watched him spend 12 minutes trying to go out the in door. I was seven. Made a lasting impression, I tell you what.

    I mean, you probably never even met James Naismith! I shook the man’s hand. He was coming out of the bushes behind Tim’s Soda & Ice Cream, he’d just taken a piss. He had hoary hands, covered in thick calluses. Hands that would rip the skin off your penis if you jacked off. Just a great man. Introduced me to my first wife. She wasn’t a very good cook but she was an excellent statistician. She invented writing down how many shots players took.

    I used to babysit Tex Winter, now he had a fine basketball mind, even at a very young age! He explained tanking as a strategy to me when he was seven years old. He also loved pineapple on his pizza. I tried to get him into rutabaga instead like a normal person but it didn’t work. We lost touch when he started working with that young jackass Jackson. I hope he grew out of the pineapple thing.

  34. Don’t see any way Giannis isn’t suspended for that headbutt, even if everyone wants to headbutt Moe Wagner

  35. I am so confused as to how the #8 team is going to be decided. I can’t even find a cheat sheet online that I can follow.

  36. Donnie Walsh:
    I am so confused as to how the #8 team is going to be decided. I can’t even find a cheat sheet online that I can follow.

    I don’t think it’s that complicated but I’m not sure. I believe that if the 9th seed is within 4 games of the 8th seed they’ll have a 1 game playoff to decide who makes the playoffs as the 8th seed. If the 9th seed is more than 4 games out then it nothing special happens.

    EDIT: Correction, it is and it isn’t a 1 game playoff. If the 9th seed is within 4 games of the 8th seed then there will be a playoff to decide the last playoff spot. The 9th seed has to win 2 games over the 8th seed to make the playoffs. So it’s a 1 or 2 game playoff for the final seed.

  37. ***I don’t think it’s that complicated but I’m not sure. I believe that if the 9th seed is within 4 games of the 8th seed they’ll have a 1 game playoff to decide who makes the playoffs as the 8th seed. If the 9th seed is more than 4 games out then it nothing special happens…***

    But there are 6 teams within 4 games of the 8th seed. Do they all playoff this weekend? Or is it just the two teams closest to the 8th seed? What if multiple teams tie for 8th and 9th? (4 teams are basically tied for the 8th/9th spot right now)

    (Meanwhile, the Lakers sit with their feet up watching all their potential opponents beating each other up all week?)

  38. “weird how you didn’t have a whole lot to say about his 9-24 game against the Bucks“

    Porzingis 2019-2020 stats:

    20 points and 9.5 rebounds at just under 32 minutes a game with an efg% of 49.6% at 24 years old.

    I kind of think it’s way past time to give up on the delusion the Zingis trade was anything other than a disaster. The Knicks don’t have one player on the roster right now who legitimately looks like they’ll be as good as Porzingis is going to be. The Knicks could use all their picks in the next several drafts and not get a player as good as Porzingis is going to be.

    Which isn’t to say that NOT giving all the money to a guy who’ll probably need to be babied like Joel Embiid while never being close to as good was actually a terrible decision. But trading that guy for what the Knicks got? Yeah, that was a terrible decision,

    Mike

  39. bless you hubie – for giving us the good stuff:

    I mean, you probably never even met James Naismith! I shook the man’s hand. He was coming out of the bushes behind Tim’s Soda & Ice Cream, he’d just taken a piss. He had hoary hands, covered in thick calluses. Hands that would rip the skin off your penis if you jacked off. Just a great man. Introduced me to my first wife. She wasn’t a very good cook but she was an excellent statistician. She invented writing down how many shots players took.

    I did actually come to write some shit down, curiosity got the better of me and I strolled upstream and found that…

    I now can’t remember a single thought i had like five minutes ago…bravo sir…bravo…

  40. 20 points and 9.5 rebounds at just under 32 minutes a game with an efg% of 49.6% at 24 years old.

    League average eFG% this year is .529. The team with the worst eFG% in the league this year is the Golden State Warriors (!) and theirs is .497, a tick higher than KP’s.

    Your shit ass 2019-2020 New York Knicks had a .501 eFG%. That’s right, if you took this year’s Kristaps Porzingis and put him on this year’s 2019-2020 Knicks, he’d actually DRAG DOWN their team eFG%.

    He does some other things and yes he’d be our best player, but bragging about KP’s eFG% is like saying “You should see this 2006 Toyota Tercel I have, it can go FORTY MILES PER HOUR.”

  41. oh yeah, I remember now…so, watching the blazers – dallas game, noticed kp’s meticulous and well groomed head…it’s good though to have good self esteem…hopefully he understands: no means no

    I noticed trey burke at the line, and I’m thinking I wish him well…kp hits a long three, nice shot…oh look, timmy getting to the line…mario just set a nice screen, melo still doesn’t pass much…

    remember watching morris out there the other night, saw a little bit of mud playing for the jazz…

    I’m not tuning in to a net game…

    point of the whole story being – man have we really worked hard at being bad…

  42. MBunge: 20 points and 9.5 rebounds at just under 32 minutes a game with an efg% of 49.6% at 24 years old.

    I’ve also wondered how good our offense might be if only we could replace Julius Randle with literally Julius Randle:

    32.5 min
    19.5 pts
    9.7 rebs
    49.2 efg%
    25 yrs old

  43. Random Thought:

    Being a Knicks fan means you have to root for bad things. Like…Luka suffering a season ending injury by January in next season. That right there almost feels like selling your soul to the devil lol

  44. Porzingis 2019-2020 stats:

    20 points and 9.5 rebounds at just under 32 minutes a game with an efg% of 49.6% at 24 years old.

    25 should be the beginning of a player’s prime. You keep acting like he’s still the 21-year-old who made a significant stride in his sophomore year.

    I kind of think it’s way past time to give up on the delusion the Zingis trade was anything other than a disaster. The Knicks don’t have one player on the roster right now who legitimately looks like they’ll be as good as Porzingis is going to be. The Knicks could use all their picks in the next several drafts and not get a player as good as Porzingis is going to be.

    Porzingis is still shooting worse than league average TS%. He has a -29.0 TSAdd and has a 95 eFG+ this year. Out of ten players who have played 1,000+ minutes for the Mavs this year, Porzingis ranks NINTH in TS%. And this is your superstar? Or are we still using the phrase “going to be” on a player who’s of the age (24-25) when players tend to start winning their MVP awards? (Giannis, LeBron, Durant, Iverson, Duncan, Jordan)

    Look, if you want to point to him being an anchor on the league’s 17th-ranked defense, I’ll give that to you. What a guy! But the reason that the Mavs have the league’s best ORtg (I can no longer look up historic team ORtg data, thanks BBRef you fucking assholes) is decidedly not Porzingis.

    Which isn’t to say that NOT giving all the money to a guy who’ll probably need to be babied like Joel Embiid while never being close to as good was actually a terrible decision. But trading that guy for what the Knicks got? Yeah, that was a terrible decision,

    We’ve litigated this way too much for me to spend time on, but simply not giving injured Porzingis $158M over five years was a coup. Dennis Smith Jr. is a terrible basketball player and the picks won’t amount to all that much.

  45. And instead of hand-wringing about the Porzingis trade, we should be more pissed off that the Knicks wasted their last three picks on players who couldn’t throw the ball into the ocean.

    Adebayo, SGA and Clarke would be, on their own, a core that could compete for a 6-8 seed right now. Instead, we’re “wait ’til next year” on a bunch of scrubs. The Porzingis trade wasn’t the defining blunder. It was unloading risk.

  46. Bam Adebayo? Jowles wants us to draft an undersized center who can’t shoot lol, we have too many guys already who can’t shoot

  47. The Honorable Cock Jowles: And instead of hand-wringing about the Porzingis trade, we should be more pissed off that the Knicks wasted their last three picks on players who couldn’t throw the ball into the ocean.

    Not true. There were videos of all three successfully throwing the ball into various oceans. I believe they have since been expunged from Mills’ MSG computer.

    The Honorable Cock Jowles: Adebayo, SGA and Clarke would be, on their own, a core that could compete for a 6-8 seed right now. Instead, we’re “wait ’til next year” on a bunch of scrubs. The Porzingis trade wasn’t the defining blunder. It was unloading risk.

    Also not true. Mr. Shark Tank understands risk way better than you do. He never loses on a deal. Stop being obtuse.

  48. ***Here is the play-in scenario explained.***

    Apparently, I have to pay $5.99 to read that explanation. (I’d rather spend that on getting Jowles a stathead account I think)

  49. sorry owen even innocent nonpartisan dicta gets hack checked here. bam is obviously KOQ if KOQ were good. everyone knows good julius randle is domantas sabonis.

  50. Okay, I deep dived. (I really want to understand this because for the first time ever, some of my kids are really enjoying watching the NBA and I want to be able to explain this to them, to keep their interest up:)

    *it appears that only two teams will compete in the 1 or 2 game playoff this weekend, even with 4 teams within the margin to force a playoff.

    *portland will make it unless they lose and everybody else wins.

    *if memphis wins they are in the weekend play-in regardless of what other teams do.

    *phoenix needs to win and have either memphis or portland lose.

    *san antonio needs to win and have everybody else lose.

    *the “#8” seed needs to win one game to remain as the 8th seed; the “#9” seed needs to win two games to become the 8th seed.

    (It’s kind of cool that nobody is playing each other, so there are 4 games worth watching tomorrow. Good scheduling, NBA bot!

  51. bam is obviously KOQ if KOQ were good

    I am going to buy this board from Mike K. just to punish you all

  52. Bam was a 65% FT shooter who shot 32% on attempts not at the rim in Kentucky. No more guys who can’t shoot!

  53. I hate to think of what kind of number Mike would demand for something that spits out gobs of free cash flow like Knickerblogger. He’s like the Scrooge McDuck of basketball bloggers.

  54. The Porzingis situation is pretty simple. Giving an injury prone, full-of-mostly-unrealized-potential enormous guy 5/$156M is a a pretty big risk.

    You’re in a good position to assume that risk if you have one of the best players in the league making 3/$26M from 2019-2020 to 2021-2022. You’re not in a good position to assume that risk if you have one certifiably good player on your roster who plays the same position as Porzinigs. It made perfect sense for the Knicks to offload that risk to the Mavs.

    The return was just about everything the Mavs were allowed to give up, and its value is very much TBD until the picks are made. The idea that late first rounders are valueless continues to be nonsense though. 27% of 2020 NBA all-stars were picked 24th or later.

  55. We picked Mitch in the second round and historically, as inept as we’ve been in the 21st century, we’ve actually done a decent job of finding value later in the draft. So those Mavs picks should hopefully yield some good players for us. Next year’s draft is supposed to be deep too.

  56. Any coach who doesn’t watch film of the Blazers-Mavs game last night and see Porzingis get roasted time after time by a simple high pick and roll should be fired.

    That play should be run every time down the floor when you’re playing the Mavs, you may just find one of your starts putting up 60+ like Lillard.

  57. The Porzingis situation is pretty simple. Giving an injury prone, full-of-mostly-unrealized-potential enormous guy 5/$156M is a a pretty big risk.

    You’re in a good position to assume that risk if you have one of the best players in the league making 3/$26M from 2019-2020 to 2021-2022. You’re not in a good position to assume that risk if you have one certifiably good player on your roster who plays the same position as Porzinigs. It made perfect sense for the Knicks to offload that risk to the Mavs.

    And we got rid of Timmy’s stupid contract. The fact we didn’t do anything with the cap space doesn’t mean it was bad to get it. If Dallas does well in the playoffs I wonder if he’ll be tempted to opt out?

  58. The RJ Barrett pick was absolutely the right one to make, and that would be more obvious if we drafted SGA in 2018 and Luke Kennard in 2017. His weaknesses were magnified by the worst front office in pro basketball, and until we see what kind of roster Leon Rose puts together I’m holding out hope that he will make a huge leap from season one to season two. Just put the kid on a team with respectable shooting and higher IQ basketball players (contract year Elfrid Payton and franchise player Julius Randle are not my idea of high IQ) and you’ll start to see what he can really do.

  59. IMO, giving up picks or trade value (we did the latter with KP) to get rid of bad contracts and open cap space is usually a bad idea unless you have some immediate use for that cap space that puts you in a better position.

    We moved Lee/Hardaway and stretched Noah all to gain immediate cap space and did nothing worthwhile with it. Lee’s contract is over now. Noah’s would be over, Hardaway is overpaid but he’s not crippling and he has only 1 more year to go. Noah is still on the books for 2 more years now. lmao

    Had we just traded KP to maximize player and asset value back we would have gotten way more DSJr and two future Dallas non lottery picks.

    We were going nowhere anyway because the rebuild was years away from yielding anything. So we should have just eaten the bad leftover Phil contracts and suffered with Hardaway for one more year.

    Of course the smarter thing to do would have been to try to work things out with KP unless a fabulous deal was available (like Phil considered and rejected), but KP already saw that Mills and Perry were incompetent. That added to the Phil dysfunction with Melo that had already upset him. It wouldn’t have been easy, but it would have been far from impossible to bring him back into fold. Then we’d have KP, Robinson, Frank, RJ, Knox (should be Mikal), a lottery pick this year, and continue on in great shape with some good defenders and scorers and a ton of upside.

    You didn’t have to be especially smart to do any of this.

    You just had to not be foolish and delusion enough to think stars were going to come to a shitty team and organization in free agency.

  60. Based on Kemba’s recent interview it sounds like we had a real shot and nearly a done deal at getting him and KD to come here prior to KD’s injury. That’s a pretty good reason to open cap space.

    THJr has another year anyway, so if we sign some solid players then it’s still worth it.

    Also, pass on maxing KP while injured and putting up mediocre numbers. The pandemic giving him several months off is th he vest thing that could happen to the Mavs

  61. playing with luka and for an outstanding coach in carlisle sure doesn’t seem to hurt his performance…oh, but that defense last night from kp was painful to watch…

  62. Literally the day of the trade, I said the salary dumps were suboptimal if we prioritized them over picks but also that we could potentially recoup that lost value by taking on salary dumps if we missed out on KD, Kyrie, etc.

    Sure enough, those opportunities presented themselves. Iggy and Harkless each fetched a first and those trades didn’t even happen until we were already spurned. If we had taken them on, the KP return would’ve effectively included two extra firsts.

    I don’t need to fill in anyone here on what happened instead, but that’s a separate issue from the trade itself. It could’ve brought back four firsts.

  63. Larry Hughes was the Stephon Marbury of Toney Douglases

    haha. controversial, but compelling case for sherman douglas as the toney douglas of andrew toneys

  64. thenoblefacehumper: Sure enough, those opportunities presented themselves. Iggy and Harkless each fetched a first and those trades didn’t even happen until we were already spurned. If we had taken them on, the KP return would’ve effectively included two extra firsts.

    We got a first for Harkless anyways (plus some) and there’s no way that GSW were trading Iggy to us after we announced to everyone that we tampered with KD.

  65. We got a first for Harkless anyways (plus some) and there’s no way that GSW were trading Iggy to us after we announced to everyone that we tampered with KD.

    This isn’t what happened. We got a first plus some for Morris (completely by accident every step of the way, but whatever) who we could’ve signed even if we took on Harkless and Iggy. We would’ve had to get a different contract in exchange for Morris obviously but it’s hard for me to imagine that would’ve been a problem (there were multiple bidders).

    As for Iggy, I maintain that if we simply guaranteed GSW and Iggy that we would waive him immediately that would’ve overcome any bad blood from the KD situation. GSW had a reputation-based interest in doing right by their finals MVP.

  66. thenoblefacehumper:
    Literally the day of the trade, I said the salary dumps were suboptimal if we prioritized them over picks but also that we could potentially recoup that lost value by taking on salary dumps if we missed out on KD, Kyrie, etc.

    Sure enough, those opportunities presented themselves. Iggy and Harkless each fetched a first and those trades didn’t even happen until we were already spurned. If we had taken them on, the KP return would’ve effectively included two extra firsts.

    I don’t need to fill in anyone here on what happened instead, but that’s a separate issue from the trade itself. It could’ve brought back four firsts.

    We don’t get a first for Morris if we have KP, TH, and Lee, so it’s fair to consider that part of what we got in that trade.

    We’re also going to have $50mm in cap space this year that would have gone to to Hardaway and Porzingis.

    Randle is kind of a bum but he’s also part of what we got with the space.

    In all, we got DS Jr, two firsts from Dallas, one first from LA, Randle, and plenty of cap space this summer for dumping KP, TH, and Lee.

    The jury is still out.

  67. realizing that I misused “historic” instead of “historical” and wondering how many people questioned my literacy in that moment

  68. I was bored …assuming the likely scenario in the trades was getting a pick in the 20-30 range …here is what having a 1st round pick in between 20-30 got you over the last decade (2019 to follow)…purely eyeball:
    1. Seems like the higher % of decent guys in this grouping has been in the last few years
    2. The more fucked up your last name spelling is…doesn’t translate well into making an NBA roster
    3. Butler, Siakam and Gobert stand out as the best picks in this esteemed group
    4. doesn’t bode well for us

    2010
    James Anderson
    Craig Brackings
    Elliot Wiliams
    Trevor Booker
    Damion James
    Dominique Jones
    Quincy Pondexter
    Jordan Crawford
    Greivis Vasquez
    Daniel Orton

    2011
    Donata Motiejunas
    Nolan Smith
    Kenneth Faried
    Nikola Miortic
    Reggie Jackson
    Marshon Brooks
    Jordan Hamilton
    JaJuan Johnson
    Norris Cole
    Cory Joseph
    Jimmy Butler

    2012
    Evan Fournier
    Jared Sullnger
    Fab Melo
    John Jenkins
    Jared Cunningham
    Tony Wroten
    Miles Plumlee
    Arnett Moultrie
    Perry Jones II
    Marquis Teague
    Festus Ezeli

    2013
    Tony Snell
    Gorgui Dieng
    Mason Plumlee
    Solomon Hill
    Tim Hardaway Jr
    Reggie Bullock
    Andre Roberson
    Rudy Gobert
    Livio Jean-Charles
    Archie Goodwin
    Nemanja Nedovic

    2014
    Bruno Caboclo
    Mitch Mcgary
    Jordan Adams
    Rodney Hood
    Shabbaz Napier
    Clint Capela
    PJ Hairston
    Bogdan Bogdanovic
    CJ Wilcox
    Josh Huestis
    Kyle Anderson

    2015
    Delon Wright
    Justin Anderson
    Bobby Portis
    Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
    Tyus Jones
    Jarell Martin
    Nikola Milutinov
    Larry Nance Jr.
    RJ Hunter
    Chris McCullough
    Kevon Looney

    2016
    Caris LeVert
    Deandre Bembry
    Malachai Richardons
    Ante Zizic
    Timothe Luwawa-Cabarrot
    Brice Johnson
    Furkan Korkkmaz
    Pascal Siakam
    Skal Labissiere
    Dejounte Murray
    Damian Jones

    2017
    Harry Giles III
    Terrance Ferguson
    Jarrett Allen
    OG Anunoby
    Tlyler Lydon
    Anzejs Pasecniks
    Caleb Swanigan
    Kyle Kuzma
    Tony Bradley
    Derrick White
    Josh Hart

    2018
    Josh Okogie
    Grayson Allen
    Chandler Hutchinson
    Aaron…

  69. 2018
    Josh Okogie
    Grayson Allen
    Chandler Hutchinson
    Aaron Holiday
    Anfernee Simons
    Mo Wagner
    Landry Shamet
    Robert Williams III
    Jacob Evans
    Dzanan Musa
    Omari Spellman

    2019
    Matisse Thybulle
    Brandon Clarke
    Grant Williams
    Darius Bazely
    Ty Jerome
    Nassir Little
    Dylan Windler
    Mfiondu Kabenegel
    Jordan Poole
    Keldon Johnson
    Kevin Porter Jr.

  70. thenoblefacehumper: We got a first plus some for Morris (completely by accident every step of the way, but whatever) who we could’ve signed even if we took on Harkless and Iggy.

    Morris was the last one signed, so practically speaking I don’t think it’s true we could get Iggy, Morris, & Harkless. If we took either one on, we wouldn’t have signed Morris.

    If we don’t trade for Harkless, we get a lesser return because it means a team gave up a more valuable asset.

    I’m not sure what else LAC would have been willing to trade or what salaries would match up, it was going to be difficult to fit him in. Part of the return was the 2 LA teams bidding against each other because they’re directly competing against each other for a championship and for marketshare. Without Harkless, LAC doesn’t bid up the price and we don’t get the same return.

    The actual real-world situation clearly shows GSW didn’t care that much about securing Iggy a buyout and if they did they’d still trade him to the Grizzlies who I’m sure would still love the free 1st.

  71. I still have some hope for DSJ. First he needs to take his conditioning seriously, and then he can start working on his game with the new staff.

    He’s probably got the best burst/first step of all the guys on the team, he elevates quickly, and his handle is pretty good. He will definitely need to sort out his shot that we broke, but eventually he should be able to raise his trade value, if nothing else.

  72. Pepper, I pretended I was an expansion team and could pick from that list of 20-30 draftees, and it turns out you can field a damn good team. What I found interesting is that while it might struggle a bit to score (in fact not so much, but you pointed out about the only three players with any real scoring/ptz capacity), but damn you can field an effing great defensive team, from Gobert to Matisse and on. Which suggests what a team might want to focus on in that range — the rainmakers are gone, look for the defensive stalwarts.

  73. Raven:
    Pepper, I pretended I was an expansion team and could pick from that list of 20-30 draftees, and it turns out you can field a damn good team. What I found interesting is that while it might struggle a bit to score (in fact not so much, but you pointed out about the only three players with any real scoring/ptz capacity), but damn you can field an effing great defensive team, from Gobert to Matisse and on. Which suggests what a team might want to focus on in that range — the rainmakers are gone, look for the defensive stalwarts.

    Agree that if you look at the totality of it…100 players over a decade…however, with our 2 or 3 picks…that is all the bites we get at the apple…the odds of picking the right guy in the right year are low (unless you are like San Antonio or Denver or Toronto…i.e, an above average level of competence in the front office)…and that right guy is not going to be a unicorn….

  74. No unicorns, but there are Clarkes and Thybulles and OGs, seemingly every year. I’m no draft expert, but I can’t believe someone with time on their hands (or an actual job being paid to do this eight hours a day five days a week) couldn’t find some kind of similarities that make these non-unicorn solid role players pop up.

  75. PG Murray
    SG Butler
    SF Siakam
    PF Capela
    C Gobert

    Bench: Bogdanovic, Hart, Anunoby, Jones, Nance, Allen

    That’s a ECF team in the east.

  76. Donnie Walsh:
    PG Murray
    SG Butler
    SF Siakam
    PF Capela
    C Gobert

    Bench: Bogdanovic, Hart, Anunoby, Jones, Nance, Allen

    That’s a ECF team in the east.

    Perry Jones II
    Livio Jean-charles
    Neamanja Nedovic
    Daniel Orton
    Anzejs Pasecniks

    bench: Malakai Richardsons, Bruno Caboclo, Fab Melo, Mifondu Kabenegel and everyone’s favorite Dzanan Musa

    That’s a last place team in the intramural league at the college I went to…seems like it is just as likely to get this haul as the eCF squad…

  77. ***seems like it is just as likely to get this haul as the eCF squad…***

    Then why was Toronto able to get the ECF squad, lol

  78. You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid.

    the end…although, i’m not sure exactly what kafta meant by: “it accords with your nature”…not sure if he was being specific towards a person or just generalizing about humanity in that statement…

    one of my favorite series finales ever…despite all the grimness and unpleasant reality portrayed throughout the show, pretty upbeat season finales and series finale…

    i did take note of which version of way down in a hole was used towards the end of the series finale…

    no doubt within the next few years i’ll go back through the show one more time…

  79. Donnie Walsh:
    ***seems like it is just as likely to get this haul as the eCF squad…***

    Then why was Toronto able to get the ECF squad, lol

    not sure they did…but if they did ….somebody had to at like a 3% chance…

  80. pt why arbitrarily cut things off at #30? The point is more about who might be available, not who has been selected.

    Picking a guy slated to go #40 or later at #25 is rarely crucified for being a “reach” (Bruno Caboclo aside) because the expectation is that the pick is a long shot to be a top of the rotation player in the NBA. And guys like Bol, Harrell, Mitch, Jokic, etc. are available in the mid-20’s pretty much every year, regardless of where they eventually get picked. That’s where scouting comes in. Here are guys who were picked later than #30 (most in the top 40) that became decent NBA players, or look to be on their way there;

    2010
    Whiteside
    Bjelica
    Fields
    Stephenson

    2011
    Isaiah T
    Parsons
    Bertans
    Bojan

    2012
    Draymond
    Middleton
    Crowder

    2013
    Muscala
    Ennis
    Crabbe

    2014
    Jokic
    Powell
    Dinwiddie
    Clarkson
    Jerami G
    Joe Harris

    2015
    Montrezl
    Josh R
    Richaun H
    Norman P
    Pat C

    2016
    Brogdan
    Zubac

    2017
    Monte M
    T Bryant
    Jordan Bell

    2018
    Mitch
    Devonte
    Brunson
    Shake
    Diallo
    (more to cone)

    2019
    Bol
    (too early to tell on others)

  81. Also, late 1st rounders can help facilitate trades or can be used to move up in the draft when you have a higher pick.

    The larger point is, these picks are not throw-aways, even though the odds are against them resulting in impact players. Even if the odds are low, you only have to hit once to change a franchise, and a good scouting team can help rig the odds more in your favor.

  82. Is anyone else intrigued by Abdoulaye N’Doye as a 2nd round reach? Anyone have any euro intel on him? He seems like a crafty driver, creative passer, and good outside shooter with nice size/length. Is there a catch besides that he’s 22?

  83. ***Then why was Toronto able to get the ECF squad, lol
    not sure they did…but if they did ….somebody had to at like a 3% chance…***

    The 51-19 Toronto Raptors by minutes played:

    #27 pick Pascal Siakam
    #24 pick Kyle Lowry
    #23 pick OG Anonuby
    Undrafted Fred VanVleet
    #24 pick Serge Ibaka
    #46 pick Norman Powell
    Undrafted Terrence Davis
    #48 pick Marc Gasol
    #23 pick Rondae Hollis-Jefferson
    #38 pick Patrick McCaw
    Undrafted Chris Boucher
    Undrafted Matt Thomas

    That’s everybody that played 150 minutes. The highest draft pick was #23.

  84. Raven, I really like your observation and strategy of drafting for defense late in the first round.

  85. The 51-19 Toronto Raptors by minutes played:

    Lowry was acquired with a top ten pick and Gasol was acquired for Jonas Valanciunas, who was a top five pick by Toronto.

    And last year, of course, Kawhi was acquired for DeMar DeRozan, who was a top ten pick by Toronto, and Jakob Pöltl, who was a top ten pick by Toronto (via the amazing Bargs trade).

    Toronto has obviously done a marvelous job with drafting and developing players with late draft picks. It’s probably the main reason why they’re so good. Just noting that they used a few significant early draft picks along the way, as well.

  86. Brian Cronin: Lowry was acquired with a top ten pick and Gasol was acquired for Jonas Valanciunas, who was a top five pick by Toronto.

    And last year, of course, Kawhi was acquired for DeMar DeRozan, who was a top ten pick by Toronto, and Jakob Pöltl, who was a top ten pick by Toronto (via the amazing Bargs trade).

    Toronto has obviously done a marvelous job with drafting and developing players with late draft picks. It’s probably the main reason why they’re so good. Just noting that they used a few significant early draft picks along the way, as well.

    Very fair points. Once players are good, draft position is irrelevant. But the larger point is that you can assemble a contender solely with players drafted at #23 and below, i.e. there’s good players to be had down there if you can recognize them and having as many picks at that level as possible is a good thing…especially when you also have a lottery pick.

  87. Speaking of which, if I were Mitch, sooner or later I would resent getting paid less than pretty much everyone else on the team. When is the earliest they can renegotiate his deal and pay him like 4years/60mill so he doesn’t get wanderlust?

  88. Accident or not, I think you also have to include the Clippers pick we got for Morris in the KP haul. So in a way, we actually got 3 first round picks out of the KP trade.

  89. Seems too obvious. Better to wait till he figures out he can hit 40% of his threes and then negotiate.

    But seriously, I don’t know the details either. As a second rounder isn’t he mostly unrestricted after his deal ends? How does that work?

  90. you can assemble a contender solely with players drafted at #23 and below, i.e. there’s good players to be had down there if you can recognize them and having as many picks at that level as possible is a good thing…especially when you also have a lottery pick.

    It’s an advantage to have more picks to a large extent because it’s easier to get lucky with more picks, just as it’s more likely you’ll win $500 with scratch offs if you buy 1000 tickets instead of 1.

    If there was solid evidence that the draft order was very inefficient, assembling great scouts and talent evaluators would add enormous value. But I think to a large extent the draft IS relatively efficient and what appears to smart or foolish drafting is often actually just random distributions of good or bad luck (with a few exceptions that probably add or subtract a little value)

    I do believe there’s a more obvious difference in developing players and fitting them together well.

    If the Knicks and Raptors swapped picks. I’d be willing to bet the current Knicks players would be further along in Toronto than they are in NY and vice versa.

    In addition, when you accumulate picks to either try to improve your luck or facilitate a deal, you are almost always giving something up to get them and it might be a better player or a player that could have facilitated a deal to move up to get an even better player. Picks don’t come for free.

  91. “Once players are good, draft position is irrelevant.”

    Agree.
    Lottery Pick’s value is higher before the draft(especially if the team sucks or if the draft class is considered talented) but “changes” accordingly players’ performances.

  92. Anthony Bennett’s #1 draft pick worths a bag of peanuts while #0 of FVV looks like it worths something nowadays…

  93. Deeefense: It’s an advantage to have more picks to a large extent because it’s easier to get lucky with more picks, just as it’s more likely you’ll win $500 with scratch offs if you buy 1000 tickets instead of 1.

    If there was solid evidence that the draft order was very inefficient, assembling great scouts and talent evaluators would add enormous value. But I think to a large extent the draft IS relatively efficient and what appears to smart or foolish drafting is often actually just random distributions of good or bad luck (with a few exceptions that probably add or subtract a little value)

    I do believe there’s a more obvious difference in developing players and fitting them together well.

    If the Knicks and Raptors swapped picks. I’d be willing to bet the current Knicks players would be further along in Toronto than they are in NY and vice versa.

    In addition, when you accumulate picks to either try to improve your luck or facilitate a deal, you are almost always giving something up to get them and it might be a better player or a player that could have facilitated a deal to move up to get an even better player.Picks don’t come for free.

    Most of this is either stoopid obvious or mindless blather based on gut feelings.

    There is evidence that some teams know how to spot talent do better lower in the draft than other teams. SA is the quintessential bargain hunter, they haven’t drafted in the lottery in like forever. As shown above, Toronto found Siakam, OG and FVV who were there for the taking and hardly unknowns. If you can reduce the odds via scouting, you can land a rotation player down in the draft pretty much every year. It’s almost a certainty that good players will be available in our lower

    The Knicks actually have been pretty good in this regard. Finding Dotson, Mitch, and Trier are good examples. The jury is out on Iggy and Wooten. We’ve just been objectively terrible with some of our lottery picks.

  94. My original reason for making that list was there was a comment on perceived value of late first round selections….and I was curious to see with hindsight what the likelihood of a late first round selection turning into a serviceable player…based on 100 player sample size in the last decade…it looks like a 10-20% chance…not great odds…probably higher if you are San Antonio, Toronto, etc.

    I would think when the Knicks made the trade the expected value of those Dallas picks was not in the 20-30 range, i.e., Dallas was not going to be picking that low….so maybe the better look was 15-25….or 10-20…

    The evaluation of that trade is like the value of the right to sign KP to a 5 yr max deal versus those 2/3 picks (assuming DSJ has nil value)..and based on history…it is likely you get one serviceable rotation player from those 2/3 picks…given you don’t have the benefit of hindsight and you are not Toronto, SA or Denver…

  95. ***SA is the quintessential bargain hunter, they haven’t drafted in the lottery in like forever.***

    Indiana also hasn’t drafted in the top-10 in over 30 years now, and they’ve played in 8 ECF and 1 NBA Finals during that time.

    But to Strat’s point, he is right that if you graph the draft results based on the the quality of the NBA player, it would probably look a lot like a y = 1/x curve, which is what you would expect it to look like if the draft was efficient.

    But to Strat’s greater point, because of the efficiency of draft position, that is why teams should tank, which he says they shouldn’t do.

  96. I mean, there is definitely a bit of the chicken or egg scenario going on with good franchises and their picks.

    Good franchises don’t trade away their picks and look for scenarios where they can add more picks to their draft stock. Good franchises also develop their players well and have good scouts. Good franchises are able to plug young players into a defined role that sets them up for early success.

    Would some of the late first round picks mentioned above have developed into the good NBA players they are now if we had drafted them? Would Shumpert and Hardaway, just to use some recent later first round picks made by us, have had better careers if they were drafted by Toronto or SA or The Pacers? We can never really know the answer to this. A player reaching their potential depends on their own dedication and hard work and also on the support they have early in their career. All of these players when drafted are the top basketball players in the world. They all have the talent to potentially be good players.

  97. Just quickly eyeballing pt’s and my lists, it seems that the odds of landing a rotation player in the bottom 40 picks in the draft are somewhere between 15-20%. If you shrink that to the middle 20 picks (#21-40) the odds are somewhere around 25-30%. Considering how bad some of the decisions teams with poor talent evaluators make, I see no reason to believe that excellent evaluators can’t up those odds to 50%, meaning that the chances would be good that they can get at least one rotation player. It doesn’t have to be a star, just a guy who can defend or shoot.

  98. I tend to think that “player development” is overrated, and that “effective utilization” is more important. No one was going to turn Shump into a better player than he was with us, but they might have used him more effictively given his strengths and weaknesses. This happened with some SA players who were traded and then fizzled when they took on bigger roles or were in dumber systems.

    If anyone thinks Frank or Knox would be better on a different team based on player development over usage and system, they are flat out wrong. They might not even have gotten playing time in other situations. They will either improve their skills/reactions/awareness or they won’t. Player development isn’t rocket science.

  99. I would also say that talent evaluation is far more important than player development. SA or Toronto would NEVER have drafted Knox or Ntilikina where the Knicks did. Many/most of us here knew that they were dumb picks at the time. So the whole “if they were on a different team” scenario is laughably inane on its face. It’s way more important to draft actually good players than to develop them correctly. Mitch was never going to be bad, and Knox and Ntilikina never were going to be good, no matter who drafted them.

  100. ptmilo:
    Just quickly eyeballing pt’s and my lists

    eyeballs are dangerous things

    love,

    pepper

    some eyeballs are more equal than others…

  101. One thing about draft pick analysis is that it’s hard to account for guys like WHG who were technically drafted by other teams and don’t show up on draft lists. I can’t find a quick way to isolate rookies, which would eliminate that noise…pt?

  102. But seriously, I don’t know the details either. As a second rounder isn’t he mostly unrestricted after his deal ends? How does that work?

    knicks will have a choice in the summer of 2021 (or whenever next season ends, i guess). they can refuse robinson’s cheap 4th year option and either (1) extend him for up to 25% vet max (2) make him an immediate RFA and match any offer sheet OR (1) exercise his 4th year option and he become unrestricted in the summer of 22. there is an option here where you sign him to a deal that decline precipitously after a big year 1, like robert covington got.

    they still get a low cap hold in the summer of 2021, even if they decline the option and sign him to big money, but obviously they give up the low cap hold they also would have had in the summer of 2022.

  103. I can’t find a quick way to isolate rookies, which would eliminate that noise…pt?

    i can provide this service to a valued community member. it requires only $8.01 a month, a working knowledge of github and proof that you have been guilted into at least four wikipedia donations.

  104. ptmilo:
    But seriously, I don’t know the details either. As a second rounder isn’t he mostly unrestricted after his deal ends? How does that work?

    knicks will have a choice in the summer of 2021 (or whenever next season ends, i guess).they can refuse robinson’s cheap 4th year optionand either (1) extend him for up to 25% vet max (2) make him an immediate RFA and match any offer sheet OR (1) exercise his 4th year option and he become unrestricted in the summer of 22.there is an option here where you sign him to a deal that decline precipitously after a big year 1, like robert covington got.

    they still get a low cap hold in the summer of 2021, even if they decline the option and sign him to big money, but obviously they give up the low cap hold they also would have had in the summer of 2022.

    Is this sort of like the Hassan Whiteside situation with the Heat?

  105. The evaluation of that trade is like the value of the right to sign KP to a 5 yr max deal versus those 2/3 picks (assuming DSJ has nil value)..and based on history…it is likely you get one serviceable rotation player from those 2/3 picks

    So still reasonably good since signing KP to a 5 yr max remains a bad choice for the Knicks.

    Considering how bad some of the decisions teams with poor talent evaluators make, I see no reason to believe that excellent evaluators can’t up those odds to 50%, meaning that the chances would be good that they can get at least one rotation player. It doesn’t have to be a star, just a guy who can defend or shoot.

    I don’t know about 50%, but this is right. You have to take into account the Miles Plumlees of this range. There’s a bunch of guys who have respectable careers as effective bench players on that list.

  106. Its not laughably inane. I didn’t say Knox and Frank would be good players on other teams (although Frank might be a lot better, just sayin’). I was focusing on later picks, not lottery picks, because that is what we were talking about. And my point is that player development and talent evaluation go hand and hand. So when we, as Knicks fans, constantly lament about “oh we coulda drafted this player or that player who was drafted later than our pick” it misses the forest for the trees. Of course you can pick lottery players who are busts every year and say “that was a dumb pick” the same way you can pick late first round picks and say “wow, that was a great pick.” But over time, a good franchise that has good scouts, good player development, good coaches and a team that wins more games than it loses…over time those franchises are going to make “good picks” more than they make “bad picks.” It all goes hand in hand. Having lots of draft picks (all over the draft) alone doesn’t guarantee any of the players you pick will be good, even if it increases your odds a bit. Having good scouts doesn’t do any good if you have no picks or no player development.

  107. looking forward to the suns versus mavs game in a little while…never thought i’d be rooting for both the suns and blazers over the grizz…

    that lakers-blazers matchup could be interesting though…

  108. Yeah, that makes sense re Mitch.

    I don’t know how the Knicks will screw it up next year but they will find a way.

  109. i did leave one thing out. i believe the knicks also could
    technically sign mitch to a much smaller extension sometime after this year but before the summer of 2021, to begin in 21-22 . but i think this maxes out too low (something like $53/4) to be something mitch would agree to. this is the josh richardson extension.

    whiteside was different. he was an unrestricted free agent not eligible for an extension bc his contract was too short.

  110. thanks as always MVP (most valuable poster) pt.

    swiftandabundant: And my point is that player development and talent evaluation go hand and hand.

    Sure, but I believe that player development is far more consistent across the league than talent evaluation. It is far less likely that a team at the low end of player development will screw up a good player than that a team with lousy talent evaluation will turn lousy players into good ones.

    It doesn’t take genius to figure out what players need to work on and get guys to work on those things with him. And if a player has a hard ceiling on a skill, no amount of player development will change that. Amare is a good example. He worked his ass off in trying to improve his defense and offense. The offense worked, the defense didn’t. With Shump, it was the opposite.

    Ron Baker and Jimmer Fredette are not out of the league because of bad player development.

    Pascal Siakam and Draymond Green didn’t become stars because of good player development.

    Scouting and talent evaluation is way more important and responsible for successful roster construction than player development. Teams with good scouting personnel (and a FO who listens to them) wouldn’t have touched Frank or Knox with a ten-foot pole.

  111. Calling player’s development far less important than talent evaluation is like trying to prove that all schools and universities are equal and it’s the student’s “fire and desire” that counts mostly…

  112. Knew Your Nicks:
    Calling “player’s development” far less important than talent evaluation is like trying to prove that all schools are equal and it’s the student’s “fire and desire” that counts mostly…

    One of the dumber comparisons you’ve ever made, and that’s saying something! In your analogy, we’re talking about MIT’s PhD program, not a generic K-12 public school. At the highest levels of academia, recruitment is way more important than development. If MIT recruited the intellectual equivalents of Frank and Knox, they’d fall off the elite academic institutions list in a hurry, no matter who the faculty and no matter how much fire and desire they had.

  113. Which is why teams should rely on stats as much as possible (guess which team didn’t until maybe this year…)

    When recruiting grad students, wouldn’t a school go primarily by previous test scores and grades, and not whether a student looked good in an empty classroom against Miles Bridges?

  114. I mean, I agree that no amount of player development will turn a bad player into a good one and that in some skill areas, a player only has a certain ceiling (Amare with defense).

    But I think a bad franchise without good player development can screw up plenty of good prospects and I think Hardaway is a good example. He was bad here. Then he went to Atlanta and Bud helped him get better. Then he came her and was bad again (more the role he was given than development…which at that point was probably done for the most part for him). Then he goes to Dallas with Doncic and suddenly looks good again.

    I put player development hand in hand with role/system. You need all of it.

    I guess I harp on this because I believe Rose understands this and its why we’re seeing him hire Payne, that scout dude, an analytics guy, a cap guy, etc.

    Just having a ton of picks might increase your odds and if you luck out and get Kawhi late in the first round, that can change your franchise (although SA did a great job developing him, no?) But just having more picks by itself won’t be enough for us to turn it around. We gotta make the right picks and then develop them.

    If Fizdale stayed here another 2 years we could easily squander Mitch or RJ’s talent. They’d then be busts/dissappointments.

  115. I think the assumption that player development is more consistent across the league than evaluation is tough to prove..maybe true…but if the overall player population is normally distributed as to NBA level skill so that a large bunch are pretty much the same…why some teams perennially suck and others are above average would speak to similar deviation in development/coaching compared with talent evaluation…

  116. Good stuff. Rather than weigh in on one side or another, I’m going to wimp out and pass on an article. I think there’s as much crap in here as good points, but points of possible interest are the description of Devin’s development work (development!); the attempts to find the right teammates around him, culminating in Cam Johnson (fit!); plus the discussion of draft-time decisions (drafting the right player!). All the different topics swirling around this thread.
    https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/13/21365383/phoenix-suns-team-building-cam-johnson-james-jones
    Not actually sure there’s any lesson in here, but some food for thought.

  117. but if the overall player population is normally distributed

    This is very unlikely to be true. If you posit that the overall distribution of athletic talent in society is normally distributed and the NBA has the best players available, then the player talent distribution in the NBA should be shaped like the tail end of a distribution which is very non normal in shape.

  118. KnickfaninNJ: This is very unlikely to be true.If you posit that the overall distribution of athletic talent in society is normally distributed and the NBA has the best players available, then the player talent distribution in the NBA should be shaped like the tail end of a distribution which is very non normal in shape.

    not sure about that…that tail is the tail of a broader population/sample size…if that tail now becomes your entire population…you have a new curve relative to whatever you are measuring, i.e., NBA level skill…if you argue that it is not normally distributed population then yes…the curve looks different…but if in general you agree that of the NBA player pool most are equal in skill with outliers (lebron, giannies on the up side and knox and dsj on the downside)…then it will look like a normally distributed curve…

  119. Not actually sure there’s any lesson in here, but some food for thought.

    Notice how instead of two bigs (plus 3 or 4 more on the bench), Phoenix starts one roll man, two 3&D guys, and two ball handlers, one a scorer?

    This is why I think Randle has to become the backup center (or be traded). This is modern basketball, and basically every team has adapted except friggin’ Mills’ Knicks, who collected stray bigs like they were puppies.

    Dump Knox, Dump Randle, draft Vassell and Bane, pay VanVleet and do the same thing as Phoenix.

  120. Rookies of the year going down like crap in the toilet (MCW) and Totally Unknowns becoming All NBAers (Ben Wallace) prove that talent evaluation can be extremely fluid and prediction sometimes rely on luck and other times on knowledge or experience.
    Calling Talent Evaluation far more critical than Development don’t seem provable to me.

  121. 1985 baseball abstract, page 113.

    can’t believe i’m rooting against the grizzlies but how can you not want the suns to get in?

  122. I remember at least one poster here is a Suns fan who posted the Suns tales of woe recently (of which there were many). You might be interested in Zach Lowe’s latest podcast which focuses a lot on the Suns. He had some longtime Suns beat writer to talk to. He asked the writer why the Suns were so much better in the bubble. The guy said he thought their bench was much better now. They used to hav a terrible bench, but now it’s good.

  123. Pepper, I just don’t see how the distribution magically rearranges itself to be normal again after you select only people from one tail of the original distribution.

  124. ess-dog: Notice how instead of two bigs (plus 3 or 4 more on the bench), Phoenix starts one roll man, two 3&D guys, and two ball handlers, one a scorer?

    This is why I think Randle has to become the backup center (or be traded). This is modern basketball, and basically every team has adapted except friggin’ Mills’ Knicks, who collected stray bigs like they were puppies.

    Dump Knox, Dump Randle, draft Vassell and Bane, pay VanVleet and do the same thing as Phoenix.

    I agree and still think we should make an offer to Bogdanovic on Sacto…he is RFA but I think an example of a guy who would be better in a different role/setting but is basically a tough guy who can shoot…

  125. I should add that if you look at scatter plots of NBA stats, for example the one of performance of players versus salary That someone recently posted a link to, it’s obvious that player results aren’t normally distributed.

  126. KnickfaninNJ:
    I should add that if you look at scatter plots of NBA stats, for example the one of performance of players versus salary That someone recently posted a link to, it’s obvious that player results aren’t normally distributed.

    That is a different correlation…stats to pay…for your argument to hold it would have to be proven that pay correlates to performance, i.e., see Allen Crabbe, andrew wiggins, terry rozier…

    but if you argue that “results” aren’t normally distributed…it depends on how you define results…

    my point is that if you take the 400 or so NBA roster guys and take 40 all stars/all pro, etc. and 40 real scrubs than the rest are fairly evenly distributed in terms of talent or skill set (some good at some things and some good at others)…

  127. Once again, the Knicks with the near miss. They hire Kenny when they should have hired Cameron.

  128. Thank God for the Unexpected

    If talent evaluation was a sure thing and development was almost the same on every team and had the same effect on any player it’s very possible that the game’s predictability would have killed the Fun of the game.

  129. pepper: That is a different correlation…stats to pay…for your argument to hold it would have to be proven that pay correlates to performance, i.e., see Allen Crabbe, andrew wiggins, terry rozier…

    but if you argue that “results” are normally distributed…it depends on how you define results…

    I’m not talking about the correlation of the two, just look at how the points are distributed along the performance axis.

  130. Rookies of the year going down like crap in the toilet (MCW) and Totally Unknowns becoming All NBAers (Ben Wallace) prove that talent evaluation can be extremely fluid and prediction sometimes rely on luck and other times on knowledge or experience.
    Calling Talent Evaluation far more critical than Development don’t seem provable to me.

    https://stats.nba.com/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie

    Rookie of the year voting, 2013-14

    1. MCW
    2. Oladipo
    3. Trey Burke

    PPG, all qualified rookies, 2013-14

    1. MCW
    2. Oladipo
    3. Trey Burke

    Minutes played, all qualified rookies, 2013-14

    1. MCW
    2. Trey Burke
    3. Oladipo

    Let’s not act like end-of-season awards is some kind of complex calculus. It’s sportwriters looking at the newspaper-printed per-game stats on the last day of the season, throwing in a token underrepresented position (Mason Plumlee, All-Rookie First Teamer, since you couldn’t give all five slots to the top-5 PPG guys, all guards), and voting accordingly.

  131. Knew Your Nicks: If talent evaluation was a sure thing and development was almost the same on every team and had the same effect on any player it’s very possible that the game’s predictability would have killed the Fun of the game.

    The point is that talent evaluation is the most statistically variable aspect of team-building. SA had very little to do with Kawhi becoming an all-time great player, but they knew he was the best player available when they drafted him. Other teams passed him over for lesser players.

  132. @jowles
    I’m not trying to defend the ROY award but to show that players have “Ups and Downs” during their careers according to injuries, bad habits, motivations, revelations and other non predictable factors.
    That’s why I’m saying that talent evaluation is extremely fluid.

    @Zman
    If SA was so great on talent evaluation don’t you think it would have grabbed also Giannis, Jokic, even Doncic and other unknown euro/international “sleepers” the way they did it on Kawhi ?

  133. Knew Your Nicks: If SA was so great on talent evaluation don’t you think it would have grabbed also Giannis, Jokic, even Doncic and other unknown euro/international “sleepers” the way they did it on Kawhi ?

    Giannis was taken at #15. SA didn’t draft until #28
    Jokic was taken at #41, SA selected Kyle Anderson at #29, not Jokic, but hardly a whiff.
    Doncic was taken at #3, I’m not sure why you would even bring him up in the “sleeper” category.

    I have no problem with you trying to defend your take, but it seems like you are just making stuff up to try to find something that would stick. Remember, getting a good NBA player that low in the draft is improbable, even for excellent talent evaluators. No one is suggesting that it’s an exact science.

  134. Com on zman…
    Let’s be honest here
    If you give your trusted pg-GHill to get Kawhi
    You can find something to give to get generational talents…

  135. If SA was so great on talent evaluation don’t you think it would have grabbed also Giannis, Jokic, even Doncic and other unknown euro/international “sleepers” the way they did it on Kawhi ?

    San Antonio is no longer miles ahead of the nearest team in identifying foreign talent. And they whiffed all the time back in their heyday, too. Felipe Lopez, Leon Smith, Robertas Jaytokas, Chris Carrawell, Ian Mahinmi, Damir Markota, Beno Udrih, Marcus Williams — all scrubs they drafted during their title runs. They even picked Dragic at 45 and traded him for Malik Hairston.

    Jokic played well in the Adriatic League — but name another NBAer from the Adriatic.

    Giannis went 15th and was RAW coming out of Greece. No one could have predicted he’d be MVP. You could see him as a future star, but not a game-changing Shaq-like POINT GUARD at nearly 7 feet.

  136. That’s why I’m saying that:
    Talent evaluation don’t seem far more crucial than player’s development.
    If the Most Knowledgeable Teams of the league can’t spot up the best “hidden” talents and grab them, then who can?
    Maybe the luckiest “gambling” teams ?

  137. KnickfaninNJ: I’m not talking about the correlation of the two, just look at how the points are distributed along the performance axis.

    ok…just because i’ve consumed a good amount of chardonnay and not sure what the performance axis is….

    I did the following:

    1. Took the entire pool (except for about 30 dudes as the website limited me to exporting up to 500 data points) for the 2018-2019 season
    2. Sorted in descending order by total points scored (as that appears to be the axis referred to) by player (total points for the whole nba was 273k)
    3. Segmented into ten deciles of 27k total points

    Now this is skewed as the roster size is 12-14 or something so 530 has guys moving in and out of the league, etc…but here are total % of league points by decile, i.e, how many players in that decile divided by total number of playaz…

    1 – 14 guys or 3% (rounded) avg efg .54
    2. 17 guys (3%) avg efg .52
    3.20 guys (4%) avg efg .54
    4. 23 guys (5%) avg efg .53
    5. 29 guys (6%)avg efg ,54
    6. 33 guys (7%) avg efg ,54
    7. 40 guys (8%) avg efg .52….so at this point, roughly 1/3 of the player pool scored 70% of the total points…and the range of efg% among those groups was between .52 and .54
    8. 50 guys (10%) efg .52
    9. 64 guys efg .52
    10. 200 or so stiffs and .49

    so…i guess if you want to stay on the total points scored is the measuring stick I guess you can argue it is not normally distributed and I think nobody would argue that but the hypothesis was nba skill and it appears from this data it looks normally distributed using efg% as the metric……

    ok…now extracting self from rabbit hole and going to grill up some swordfish…

    one last item…trivia question…who was the knick with the most total points scored in 2018-19? if the answer is not the ultimate argument for why points scored is not the best metric…not sure what is…

  138. Popovich on the playoff streak ending:

    “That’s fake news. That’s total fake news! Lots of guys have been telling me the streak hasn’t ended! I talk to people all the time. They call me. They tell me, ‘Pop, the streak didn’t end! It didn’t end!'”

    Gotta love Pop!

  139. I really want to like Lillard, and I know he’s as professional as they come and works harder than anybody, but every time I watch him play I feel my Marbury ptsd kick in.

  140. d-mar:
    Popovich on the playoff streak ending:

    “That’s fake news. That’s total fake news! Lots of guys have been telling me the streak hasn’t ended! I talk to people all the time. They call me. They tell me, ‘Pop, the streak didn’t end! It didn’t end!’”

    Gotta love Pop!

    OMG, you’re not kidding! I love Pop, he’s the best.

  141. I was still in college in San Antonio the last time the Spurs didn’t make the playoffs-that’s a long time ago.

    They should do the bubble every year-66 regular season games, take like 2 weeks off, the contenders go into the bubble, and then back to their home cities for the playoffs. Obviously would never happen, but this was a fun format.

  142. Garrett Temple gets three steps in the bubble. How the hell has that guy had a 10 year career.

    People have been saying it for years but the Bubble has really brought into high relief how uncompetitive and low stakes the NBA regular season is. Nothing profound about that of course but I do hope something comes of this.

  143. After Portland won I allowed myself to feel real joy at Carmelo having absolutely bricked a wide open three that would have iced the game.

  144. Owen: People have been saying it for years but the Bubble has really brought into high relief how uncompetitive and low stakes the NBA regular season is.

    I’m not one of those people. I just think it feels that way from a Knicks fan pov. I mean in most years we’re rooting for losses.

  145. I’m going to be really annoyed when things go back to the old norm instead of a new and improved future. The NBA needs more competition. The first 66 games should be for the “bubble round qualification,” and then the delete eight go and play for different incentives like a lock to pick in the top 3 depending on their records in that 16 game period. The other 22 teams have a 16 game finish to their season, but no cupcake games against 22 win teams, and then a play-in for the 7th and 8th seeds (7v10 and 8v9, like who doesn’t want to see Dallas vs Phoenix/Portland in a play in series?). The two teams who finish 11th in their respective conferences get thrown into the lottery with no chance to pick in the top 5 but maybe they can’t pick worse than 10th or something.

    The NBA needs to do a better job of incentivizing competition and the old system doesn’t help at all.

  146. Pepper, that’s very nice data. You did great despite the Chardonnay. I matched that with a fig infused old fashioned, so take the following with a grain of salt.

    I agree with you about total points not being a wonderful metric, and I wish that chart had used something else. A year or two ago I downloaded some 2017-2018 data and calculated means and medians to see if the distributions were normal. Some are normal but some are not. PER and TS% are not, but blocks percentage WS and VORP are skewed. WS/30 is not. Some others maybe skewed, but it was hard to tell. There was a difference of mean to median but it wasn’t so large it stood out. So depending on the stat you use, you get a different answer.

    I think we both agree that some players really stand out as being much better than the typical NBA player, so we’re really trying to figure out if there are also some players in the NBA who are much worse than the typical NBA player.

  147. Too bad it can’t be Phoenix vs Portland this weekend.

    I can’t remember if monty turned us down, or we passed on him…good for him for finding and helping to build a good developing situation in phoenix…they got really good wing play throughout the restart…

    ayton looks a lot more active now…devin booker is trying hard to be like james harden…

    man, harden is gonna end up being one of the best players of his generation – and i’m not that big a fan of that style of extreme ball dominant player…I’m still adjusting to 35′ plus casual shot attempts…it just looks really diiferent…

    I’m not that familiar with the grizz, how big a deal is it that memphis lost jackson? didn’t that just give clarke a chance in the starting unit…

    I’m excited to see ja play this weekend…he looks ready for primetime…

    if it happens, i think portland can definitely win one or two against the lakers…

    it’ll be fun to watch AD and whiteside match up around the rim…

    a fig infused old fashioned

    that sounds pretty darn tasty…

  148. It’s a great drink, and very easy to make. I’ll post details if you want. Basically you let figs soak in bourbon for two weeks. Then you store the bourbon. When you want a drink you put some of the bourbon over ice and add a couple of dashes of orange bitters.

  149. The next time some skeptic says there no evidence of alien visitation I’m going to show him a Damian Lilliard highlight reel.

  150. Owen:
    After Portland won I allowed myself to feel real joy at Carmelo having absolutely bricked a wide open three that would have iced the game.

    I knew he was going to miss that one. His nerves are NOT what they used to be when he was young. Sometimes you can visually see the herky-jerky movement. But I have to give him credit for the previous one he made. It was a critical shot when they were down. He made it. That was a huge shot.

  151. Devon Booker has gone from very talented good young player that advanced metrics hated, to very talented very good young player player that advanced metrics didn’t like much, to legitimate #1 option on a good team that advanced metrics are finally realizing may be pretty good. lmao

    I’m happy he they finally finally have a few guys on the team that try to play defense and can do other things (like Rubio and Bridges) and a few solid veterans that know how to play basketball to help the young guys. They have a nice mix and should continue to get better once they finally break through and get playoff experience.

  152. ess-dog: This is why I think Randle has to become the backup center (or be traded). This is modern basketball, and basically every team has adapted except friggin’ Mills’ Knicks, who collected stray bigs like they were puppies.

    I agree.

    Randle is a very good offensive player. He’s just not a good fit at PF next to a guy like Robinson.

    You can play him some at C in small ball lineups, you can play him next to a stretch 5, but other than that ideally he’s a scorer off the bench because he can’t protect the paint and there are very few players like KP that can protect the paint and stretch the floor so Randle can go to work inside and get rebounds. He would be a terrific fit next to Porzingis, IMO, he still has quite a bit of “intrinsic” value, but NY was so mismanaged under Mills/Perry they’ve probably managed to destroy his market value.

  153. Alan:
    Bulls fired Jim Boylen.

    I wonder what that means for any potential Bulls trades.

    I’m not a Zach Lavine fan but I could live with Lauri Markkanen next to Robinson.

  154. The Bulls should hire Mike Miller or Woodson- save us some pressure on the staff. Both of those guys deserve a larger role than they will get on the Knicks bench if they both end up on Thibs’ staff. Honestly, I think both coaches would do well with Chicago’s roster. Woody hasn’t actually signed yet, right? He should totally go for the Chicago job. And before anyone says Atkinson, I kinda hope and expect Walton to be let go in Sacto in favor of Atkinson

  155. I can’t believe there is any kind of debate on this forum that player development and putting players into their proper role is a critical part of the success of the players you draft. If anyone on earth should appreciate that it’s Knicks fans.

    Players that aren’t good here get better on other teams and vice versa all the time. Some do it more than once (like Hardaway).

    Every team has access to the same game stats, physical stats, athletic ability stats, interviews the players, scouts them etc… The long term results from each the draft position are relatively efficient. It’s hard to find areas of true value like the Spurs did for awhile overseas. Most of what appears to be great or poor draft prowess has been a run of good or bad luck.

    What some teams clearly do better is see talent that’s been misused and use it better, develop skills better, and have the patience to wait out years of development etc.. The Knicks are terrible at all 3 of those things.

  156. Happy birthday, Jowles, Leo King of Knickerblogger.

    I’m going to go on record and say that if they can’t move up for LaMelo, the Knicks will take Cole Anthony. It feels too inevitable. I just hope that when they do it, they trade down a bit and add another asset at the same time.

  157. https://imgur.com/a/k3wKJqp

    This is my latest. If I put fruit on pizza, Katie will murder me. I’d guess that I’ve made about 150 pizzas since last March, and only three of them had toppings. A couple pesto + tomato slice pies, and one with prosciutto. We keep it simple.

  158. it’s incredibly challenging to convincingly measure (as opposed to intuit) how important organizational factors are to player development vs. the counterfactual. somewhat recently, a clever method — previously used to estimate managerial relevance (as opposed to randomness) — was applied to sports, including the nba. it told a fairly compelling story that coaches matter much more than previous research surmised, based upon the distribution of correlations vs the distribution expected under the null hypothesis of irrelevance. it was certainly much better thought out than the existing literature, which was full of potential holes. but this study was about whether differences in coaches (NBA included but across all sports) mattered to team results, an easier question to answer. so for the purposes of this conversation it still comes entirely down to the morris and lopez brothers.

    http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Do-Coaches-Matter.pdf

  159. so for the purposes of this conversation it still comes entirely down to the morris and lopez brothers.

    And even then, so many confounding variables

  160. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    https://imgur.com/a/k3wKJqp

    This is my latest. If I put fruit on pizza, Katie will murder me. I’d guess that I’ve made about 150 pizzas since last March, and only three of them had toppings. A couple pesto tomato slice pies, and one with prosciutto. We keep it simple.

    My wife has long refused to eat pizzas with anything but meat on them. However, I finally got her into Margherita Pizza. A local mom and pop place makes a pretty good one, and I’m working on making better ones here at home, too that I can customize a bit with bell pepper and, sometimes, pineapple or jalapenos on my half.

  161. Our goal in this paper has not been to deliver an exhaustive or definitive study of coaching. Rather, we offer a method and associated software that analysts can use to study the effects of coaches on any measurable outcome in any sport.

    i wonder how much of a difference organizations make on coaches…did fiz have good “numbers” in memphis that suddenly turned to shit when he showed up in new york…

  162. We’re Leos — passionate, brave, and loyal. Even to the friggin Knicks…

    you guys are not alone…had mine a couple of weeks back…leos really are the best :)

  163. Happy birthday Jowles, even if you are the sole reason I have to minimize my screen at work when someone’s passing (come on man, I think people suspect I’m a pornophile)
    This is weird, my birthday was on 8/1. Why are so many of us Leos? Loyalty? Crap? Higher chances of being conceived in October with the start of the season, when hopes are high for the only time?

  164. Deeefense: I can’t believe there is any kind of debate on this forum that player development and putting players into their proper role is a critical part of the success of the players you draft.

    In this conversation, player development is being considered distinct from putting players in proper role. Playing guys like Shump and Frank at PG is all about role and nothing about development. The point is that they would have been at the same skill level across the board whether they were developed by the Knicks or most other teams. They just would have been utilized more effectively (or more accurately, less harmfully.)

    More importantly, drafting SGA instead of Knox and drafting (list too long to bother with) instead of Frank is WAY more important than who develops Knox and Frank. There’s not a player development staff in the NBA that would have made much of a difference in where those guys are right now. There’s not a player development staff in the NBA that would have hindered SGA or Donovan Mitchell or John Collins or Mitchell Robinson to the point where they would be as bad as Frank and Knox have been.

  165. Hey geo, yeah, just extremely busy with complications of chronic issues that went neglected because of COVID. It’s really, really sad.

  166. Also, splurged on an ENVO n95 mask and I’m so much happier and more comfortable. If you find yourself needing to wear an n95 for more than a couple hours a day, I’d invest in one. A constant headache can seriously affect your mood.

  167. Did the imgur link lead to NSFW stuff? Sorry, I’ll link directly to the photo next time.

  168. wetbandit:
    Happy birthday Jowles, even if you are the sole reason I have to minimize my screen at work when someone’s passing (come on man, I think people suspect I’m a pornophile)
    This is weird, my birthday was on 8/1. Why are so many of us Leos? Loyalty? Crap? Higher chances of being conceived in October with the start of the season, when hopes are high for the only time?

    I’ve always found it a bit interesting that most Leos are probably conceived between Halloween and Thanksgiving…FWIW

  169. For those who care as much as me, Nestle sued for killing thousands of fish and sealife. Fuck Nestle.

    Jowles- I walked right into that one. Like lady bandit

  170. wetbandit:
    Also, splurged on an ENVO n95 mask and I’m so much happier and more comfortable. If you find yourself needing to wear an n95 for more than a couple hours a day, I’d invest in one. A constant headache can seriously affect your mood.

    Hate to say this but the Enzo mask has a filter and nobody should be using a mask with a filter. These masks were designed to stop particulate from being breathed in (like on a construction site) but don’t stop particles from being breathed out and expelled into the surrounding air. Most of the point of wearing a mask is to stop your own breath/saliva/droplets from expelling into the air around you. If you’re wearing a mask with a filter, an Enzo mask or something else, and you’re sick then you’re spreading virus around and not doing anything to stop it.

  171. Yeah, I know, I actually wear a K/N95 over the Envo just for that reason (and to protect the mask). The N95 with the exhalation valve is terrible for the same reason.

  172. Enjoy, Jowles! It’s the best thing I’ve been a part of writing. And maybe the best thing I will be a part of writing.

  173. I thought Jacque Vaughn did an exceptional job of coaching last night. Even though Lillard did hid thing, they put the onus on others and most did not come through. Now if other guys were hitting 3’s it might have backfired but he really had Portland shitting in their shorts right until the final buzzer. Shame they will have to ditch him to satisfy the primadonna max contract guys on the sidelines.

  174. Alan:
    Enjoy, Jowles! It’s the best thing I’ve been a part of writing. And maybe the best thing I will be a part of writing.

    Come on, alsep, there has to be a best-seller embedded somewhere in your KB life…it’s pretty mind-boggling how many eggheads are wasting brain power here rather than working on nuclear fusion reactors or something easier to solve than how to fix the Knicks.

  175. Huh, I always had THCJ pegged as a good amount older. Wisdom with regards to the effects of bleach consumption beyond his years, I guess.

    Anyway, happy birthday! That pizza looks ridiculously good.

  176. Huh, I always had THCJ pegged as a good amount older. Wisdom with regards to the effects of bleach consumption beyond his years, I guess.

    I look 25 tops, so it’s even weirder. People ask what my wife and I do for fun, and it reads like a list of real middle-age/geriatric stuff: read, cook, bake, play Scrabble, race each other with the Friday through Sunday NYT crosswords (every week, in pen, and she did last Saturday’s in like 12 minutes, so I lose about 97% of the time, no lie), play chess, work out, go on long walks, and innumerable orgies while under heavy doses of medical-grade THC.

    I was broke as hell, overworked and living with my folks (nice people, but kill me) during grad school, which was the peak “drink bleach” phase of the THCJ avatar. Now that I have some money and a kick-ass wife, things are a bit easier on my nerves.

    Except with bobneptune, cuz, y’know, fuck that guy.

  177. Now have some kids and before long you’ll be wishing you lived with your folks again…

    PS if you’re gonna reproduce, do it soon…raising teenagers is no country for old men.

  178. When Jowles first started posting here some 10 years ago, I imagined him as a Hector Hammond type — part loser in his parents’ basement, part super genius with a humongous brain. I guess I was kind of right on both counts, though I didn’t guess that he was a child. That does fill in the missing pieces, though :)

    Happy birthday, Your Honor! I’ve enjoyed our thoroughly modern relationship over the past decade.

  179. We’re gliding toward forever-DINK and early retirement because we’re rational people. We’ve got some nieces and a nephew (17, 11, 15, respectively ) that we see every week and they make me want kids because of how good and fun and well-behaved they are, but of course, I wasn’t around ten-plus years ago when they were a bunch of piss-and-shit-factories who cried all the time.

    part loser in his parents’ basement, part super genius with a humongous brain

    This would have been pretty accurate back then, as far as my “future” went. After I finished grad school and was working under the poverty line for a time, my younger sister said something like, “Well, we don’t have to discuss who gets the house after mom and dad pass, since we know you’ll still be living there.” I didn’t disagree with her, but now that I have a good career, I make sure to flex on her as much as humanly possible.

    Thanks to all for putting up with me over the years. Except Z-man.

  180. Late to the party as usual — Happy B-day Jowles. I was going to vehemently disagree with Z-Man’s advice (breed late, after you’ve gotten all the stupid, dangerous, low-paying wanderlust shit out of your system, just stay in tip-top shape because you really can’t let your kid outrace you or beat you up until they’re at least 13), but since you’ve self-identified as geriatric, I guess breed at will.

  181. I thought Jacque Vaughn did an exceptional job of coaching last night. Even though Lillard did hid thing, they put the onus on others and most did not come through. Now if other guys were hitting 3’s it might have backfired but he really had Portland shitting in their shorts right until the final buzzer. Shame they will have to ditch him to satisfy the primadonna max contract guys on the sidelines.

    I thought Vaughn was going to be a great coach, but then he sucked his first time out. Maybe he just needed some time to adjust?

  182. Happy Birthday THCJ!
    I’m wishing you to always be the best version of yourself. Even as a Knicks fan which makes it more tough!

  183. just stay in tip-top shape because you really can’t let your kid outrace you or beat you up until they’re at least 13

    so very true…i remember about a decade ago having to tell god daughter when she was around 8 to start pulling her punches a bit when we would play fight, that was a bit humbling…she had a pretty solid punch though…

    thankfully godson doesn’t have quite the level of aggression his sis did…he’s nine now though and yeah, depending on the distance – he can out run me…life is cruel…

    delicious looking crust on that pizza jowles…

  184. Brian Cronin: I thought Vaughn was going to be a great coach, but then he sucked his first time out. Maybe he just needed some time to adjust?

    Looks that way…he seemed to know the right strings to pull in the bubble…

  185. I know i can’t prove it but I’m damn sure that if Knox was drafted by SA 6yrs ago he would lead the Raptors to an easy Back to Back championship this year!

  186. Seriously now i think that if Frank can be considered as a pretty good defender in a shitty team like the Knicks he could possibly be a “MSmart 2” in a BStevens team.
    I don’t know if its called development, right fit, healthy environment or whatever else but I’d bet money on it that it would happen naturally.

  187. Knew Your Nicks:
    Seriously now i think that if Frank can be considered as a pretty good defender in a shitty team like the Knicks he could possibly be a “MSmart 2” in a BStevens team.
    I don’t know if its called development, right fit, healthy environment or whatever else but I’d bet money on it that would happen naturally.

    take it ez on the ouzo bro…

  188. i have no idea how well this will translate – but: vólta méchri na pésoun oi trochoí

    oh yeah, and the reason being: to ávrio den échei yposchetheí

  189. This is my latest. If I put fruit on pizza, Katie will murder me. I’d guess that I’ve made about 150 pizzas since last March, and only three of them had toppings. A couple pesto + tomato slice pies, and one with prosciutto. We keep it simple.

    Happy birthday! I’d like to point out that an onion jam and brie pizza contains no fruit at all, unlike margherita.

  190. “i have no idea how well this will translate – but: vólta méchri na pésoun oi trochoí”

    Yuria sta paliouria!

    “oh yeah, and the reason being: to ávrio den échei yposchetheí”

    ‘Tomorrow never knows’ by the Beatles is my preferred song on my funeral.
    Loudly!

  191. I’ve been listening to nothing but Revolver through White Album lately. Sgt. Pepper’s really is a revelation. All of those albums, from Meet the Beatles through Abbey Road, are fantastic, but SPLHCB is on a different plane (even if Revolver was the Great Leap Forward).

  192. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    I’ve been listening to nothing but Revolver through White Album lately. Sgt. Pepper’s really is a revelation. All of those albums, from Meet the Beatles through Abbey Road, are fantastic, but SPLHCB is on a different plane (even if Revolver was the Great Leap Forward).

    ditto…siriusxm has a beatles only channel and they did a few fan’s top 100 weekends….some really good shit in there…

  193. SPLHCB is a Milestone of Pop/Rock music but…
    I must confess that the most enjoyable Beatles album for my taste is the ” under the radar” named:
    Magical Mystery Tour
    Dreamy Psychedelic Pop at its finest!
    With Sound Production Made in Heaven.
    Highly Recommended

  194. My fave is Rubber Soul, and I prefer the original American release with I’ve Just Seen a Face.That song is also on Help!, which is underrated.

  195. From Loudersound:

    Roger Waters Was Stunned First Hearing Beatles Sgt Pepper’s

    “Pink Floyd recorded debut album Piper At The Gates Of Dawn in London’s Abbey Road Studios, while the Fab Four worked on their iconic 1967 album in the next room.

    But Floyd didn’t hear it until they were touring the UK as part of a package tour headed by Jimi Hendrix and also featuring The Move, The Nice, Amen Corner and Eire Apparent.

    Waters tells KLCS: “I remember pulling the car over into a lay-by, and we sat and listened. Somebody played the whole thing on the radio. I remember sitting in this old beat-up Zephyr 4, just completely stunned.

    “I learned a lot from protest music when I was a young teenager. But I learned from John Lennon, Paul McCartney and George Harrison that it was okay for us to write about our lives, what we felt, to express ourselves.”

  196. Vlade out in Sacramento. Dumars in as the interim GM. Shit, one of the few teams dumber than the Knicks making a move.

  197. I learned from John Lennon, Paul McCartney and George Harrison that it was okay for us to write about our lives, what we felt, to express ourselves

    truly

    still hanging on to that last story arc for the clone wars, trying to hold out a little longer…been going through some select rebels stories…just started watching twilight of the apprentice…that is some really good stuff…didn’t think too much of the movie maul…animated maul though – very interesting…

  198. Brian Cronin:
    Vlade out in Sacramento. Dumars in as the interim GM. Shit, one of the few teams dumber than the Knicks making a move.

    shit…there goes my bogdanovic pipe dream

  199. tequila flowing

    it’s all in the details, pray tell – chilled, with ice, with either juice or soda, simply neat (from cabinet to glass), regular glass (my favorite are those regular small “jelly” looking glasses), shot glass or some special and specific kind of “i’m drinking now” glass…

  200. geo: it’s all in the details, pray tell – chilled, with ice, with either juice or soda, simply neat (from cabinet to glass), regular glass (my favorite are those regular small “jelly” looking glasses), shot glass or some special and specific kind of “i’m drinking now” glass…

    palermo…booze, lime, jarritos grapefruit soda…simple but satisfying..

  201. The Honorable Cock Jowles: Thanks to all for putting up with me over the years. Except Z-man.

    You’re welcome. And have a very happy birthday.

  202. Donnie Walsh:
    ***All of those albums, from Meet the Beatles through Abbey Road, are fantastic***

    Blah.

    just off top of my head…my top 5 for moi

    while my guitar gently weeps
    i’m looking through you
    here comes the sun
    back in the ussr
    lucy in the sky

  203. Donnie Walsh:
    ***All of those albums, from Meet the Beatles through Abbey Road, are fantastic***
    Blah.

    the worst

    Is it confirmed that Divac was the one who advocated for Bagley over Doncic? What a franchise-crippling mistake. He deserved to be fired.

  204. My faves that are not the standard top-10 stuff

    Don’t Let Me Down
    Two Of Us
    You’ve Got To Hide Your Love Away
    Nowhere Man
    Across the Universe

  205. Deciding when to have kids is a personal choice that random dudes over the internet probably shouldn’t have any say in. But we’re not random and I think we know each other’s inner avatars very well.
    That in mind, I say have kids early. A- there’s a lot of physical labor that’s easier and almost thoughtless when you’re younger and damn hard when you’re older, B- there’s a healthy amount of love introduced into your life that just ups the level of happiness in your life, kind of like reading a book for the second time and realizing there’s just so much good shit there that you didn’t know existed- it just paints the whole world differently, and better; C- when they’re past the very young years, and it will take time until your last one passes that threshold, you can kind of sit back, enjoy things like early grandfatherhood etc, which to me sounds awesome, like retirement, which I don’t think I’ll ever do in my career.

  206. Z-man:
    Fave ballads:

    Norwegian Wood
    If I Fell
    Blackbird
    Julia
    Long and Winding Road

    6-10

    Norwegian wood
    ballad of john and yoko
    let it be
    day tripper
    and i love her

  207. shit…there goes my bogdanovic pipe dream

    It really says a lot about them that they really did seem prepared to lose Bogdanovic, who’s only an ideal player in the modern NBA.

  208. This is my latest. If I put fruit on pizza, Katie will murder me. I’d guess that I’ve made about 150 pizzas since last March, and only three of them had toppings. A couple pesto + tomato slice pies, and one with prosciutto. We keep it simple.

    What if I told you tomato was a fruit

  209. awwwww, love you pepper :)

    enjoy for me…

    my first duty assignment was over in germany, in a small town along the neckar (beautiful little river that ran down from heidelberg)…bunches of alcohol themed fests throughout the year…i used to love hiking through all the grape vinyards along the hills there…i remember they had like a different kind of glass for just about every kind of alcohol you could imagine…very cool…

    personally, i’m mostly a light beer person…i do wine a little, when i can remember too, usually only indulge in liquor with friends, then it’s just cold and in a glass…

  210. yeah…I am not big on liquor…I was making my own “salsa borracha” and using tequila and OJ and since I had leftover tequila…I googled some simple cocktails with reposado…i am mainly beer and wine…in fact…in honor of jowles’ bday…I am now cracking open a Golden Ale from Portlands’ own Breakside Brewery…my favorite brewery up there….

    tauchman just missed a huge tater…

  211. I’m glad Brodie Van Halen didn’t get rid of Dom Smith, that guy can rake.

    Also, Edwin Diaz: 8.1 IP, 17 K, 4 BB, 1HR, 2.16 ERA, 2.36 FIP

    Whaaaaa? The one HR came in a bad spot but other than that dude has not been bad.

    Also, happy birthday Jowles! Greek Chorus 4EVA

  212. bye bye gardy time…frazier needs to be playing every day…tauchman is a more than capable 4th outfielder…actually, capable of every day play…

    i don’t know, i get he’s got a really good glove and has a good on base percentage – but, seems hicks is hurt a lot and doesn’t really hit for power or average…

    if he can stay healthy, it should be frazier’s time now and tauchman should stay in the lineup…

    i need to check on andujar and see if he’s getting a chance to play at all, and where are they using him…

  213. i agree…gardner should be gone…hicks is another cashman mistake…I would rather have Andujar’s bat in there…

    as the beer is now flowing…I was thinking by some mircale if the mets and yankees got to whatever they will call the finals…that would be something as nobody in ny could go to the games…but it would be insane…

  214. Nice try Morpheus but I’m gonna take the blue pill

    Everyone knows tomatoes are animal protein

  215. My wife just whipped up eggplant parm, broccoli rabe, spaghetti and Zurro’s italian bread (if you’re from the Bronx or Westchester, you know what I’m talking about.) Sounds simple but I guarantee that in a cookoff of just these items with y’all she’d kick your asses. Her Italian family had such a refined sense of how to make simple dishes, and she has taken it to another level via cooking shows and passion.

    She would appreciate Jowles’ pizza.

  216. Z-man:
    My wife just whipped up eggplant parm, broccoli rabe, spaghetti and Zurro’s italian bread (if you’re from the Bronx or Westchester, you know what I’m talking about.) Sounds simple but I guarantee that in a cookoff of just these items with y’all she’d kick your asses. Her Italian family had such a refined sense of how to make simple dishes, and she has taken it to another level via cooking shows and passion.

    She would appreciate Jowles’ pizza.

    damn…that sounds good…last night I made Sicilian grilled swordfish, rigatoni al limone and some roasted parmesan broccoli…also simple dishes…I would like to go head to head against her in the cookoff once the pandemic is over…i have not done eggplant parm but many trays of chicken and veal over the past 5 months…

  217. Her Eggplant Parm is so delicate…, just eggplant sliced into circles, grated reggiano and her spectacular sauce. It’s hard to stop eating.

    I wonder if we can take over Clyde’s Wine and Dine and have all the members of the KB family do their thing in the kitchen and bar…knowing Clyde, he’d probably dig it.

  218. re: tequila, I’m sipping Dulce Vida blanco on the rocks, and hitting the dab pen in Jowles’ honor.

  219. If anyone needs help choosing a bandwagon to jump on for the playoffs here’s a handy flowchart to make the choice for you. I look forward to rooting for Ja and the Grizzlies. Grit and grind!

  220. Z-man:
    re: tequila, I’m sipping Dulce Vida blanco on the rocks, and hitting the dab pen in Jowles’ honor.

    que bueno…disfrutalo…

  221. What does it suggest when a guy of Honorable’s caliber is blogging here on his birthday? Take the L, kid…

  222. Happy Birthday Jowles!

    I enjoyed Mike Birbiglia’s The New One on having a kid. I listened to him on the Ezra Klein show also and they made a good point, the resources for father’s out there are actually a little skimpy. Thankfully, kids have a way of showing you the right move.

    It’s exhausting though.

  223. My 4 factors for healthy relationships/parenthood
    (Work in progress)
    1 satisfactory sex for both partners
    2 trust one another
    3 same priorities in life
    4 feeling good and ready to share the good feeling with more human beings

  224. Pizza and The Beatles. Barf.

    Hopefully you sneak in some Mulholland Drive before the night is over (…you do know that Blue Velvet premiered the day you were born, right?… or did Kingston not have a movie theatre back then?)

    (edit: oh shit, sorry. It closed the Montreal film fest that year, I thought it opened it. But it was still a good year for movies:)

  225. 1 satisfactory sex for both partners
    2 trust one another
    3 same priorities in life
    4 feeling good and ready to share the good feeling with more human beings

    check x 4

    HAPPY BIRTHDAY PTMILO YOU WILY FREAK

  226. Best Beatles solo albums:

    1. All Things Must Pass
    2. Ram
    3. Plastic Ono Band
    4. Imagine
    5. Band On The Run

  227. ***I say have kids early. A- there’s a lot of physical labor that’s easier and almost thoughtless when you’re younger and damn hard when you’re older, B- there’s a healthy amount of love introduced into your life that just ups the level of happiness in your life, kind of like reading a book for the second time and realizing there’s just so much good shit there that you didn’t know existed- it just paints the whole world differently, and better; C- when they’re past the very young years, and it will take time until your last one passes that threshold, you can kind of sit back, enjoy things like early grandfatherhood***

    I had kids in my 20s, 30s, and 40s. Though I may not have the energy I used to have, I feel like I am a much better father now than I was back then. (I guess I’m like the Jacque Vaughn of fathers — better with age).

    I honestly can’t imagine marriage, or even bachelorhood, without kids. Even the ones that drive me in-fucking-sane (which is almost all of them between the ages of 13-20… was I really a teenager once??)

  228. Deciding when to have kids is a personal choice that random dudes over the internet probably shouldn’t have any say in. But we’re not random and I think we know each other’s inner avatars very well.
    That in mind, I say have kids early.

    One of the few bits of actual advice my father gave me was to give time to every phase: be single, be a couple, be a married couple, then have kids. Implicit was that you should time the kids so that you could be comfortably retired as the grandkids rolled around, but not so old that your kids would be a burden. Which was strange, as I was always a burden on him and I was the eldest.

    There was some solid advice there. You fall in love and get to experience all facets with your SO. My brother followed that advice but he skipped the first step. I was in college when he dropped this on me. He had a brighter picture of my relationship than I did. Never got past the second step. But still.. “You only get one time around. Experience everything it has to offer.” Good advice.

    This goes out to Patrick, life long Knicks fan, who rarely missed an opportunity and we were all better for it.

  229. Imma need one of you better informed folks here to educate me because I’m obviously late to this party- who is this Poku that I’m suddenly hearing about? I just read an article suggesting the Knicks draft him in the 6-10 range!

  230. Super tall string bean who has a decent outside shot. I wouldn’t take a risk on him this early.

  231. HAPPY BIRTHDAY PTMILO YOU WILY FREAK

    out of sample proof that local renaissance stan will always be a tenderfoot to me. take that for data.

  232. Brian Cronin:
    Super tall string bean who has a decent outside shot. I wouldn’t take a risk on him this early.

    Does he play any D? I don’t think I would draft him 6-10 either, but I’d definitely take him with the Clips pick if he’s as good as folks say he is. I’d rather draft him over signing Christian Wood- whom I like, but I’m VERY afraid of that sample size

  233. Happy Birthday Jowles.

    34 years ago I was probably in a bar somewhere watching a Knicks game whining about something management was doing wrong. :-)

  234. I’m looking forward to this Memphis vs. Portland game today. I hope Portland wins. Portland has a very good offensive team. If they play any defense at all, they could win a few games from LA and make that a series.

  235. Dallas vs. Clippers should be a very good test for Doncic, especially when/if Beverly comes back and they up their overall defense even more. The Clippers are smart enough to get physical with Doncic when he comes into the paint. They will try to wear him down during games and over the course of the series. They’ll try to force him into taking bad shots outside and making bad passes from inside. To me, on paper, it looks like a horrible matchup for the Mavs. George and Leonard are going to have a party against Dallas’s non existent wing defense. If Doncic or KP do anything special over the course of the entire series I’ll be surprised and impressed.

  236. Did I miss some birthdays?
    Happy Born Day to you both, Jowles and PT!
    Bless up

  237. I want us to fall to any position where taking Haliburton is the only option

    (And thank you to the latest batch of Greek Chorus well-wishers)

  238. The Gardner/Hicks/Tauchman/Frazier situation is tricky.

    Under normal circumstances I’d say Gardner has more than earned the right to work his way out of an early season slump (started a bit slow last year before putting up a great year), but with everything accelerated this season it’s hard to say.

    I still think the Hicks contract is great and if need be will be movable at any time (shout out to Courtney Lee), but Tauchman sure seems legit. Cashman can’t keep up with his own success when it comes to finding productive players on the scrap heap.

    Frazier has teased us before so I’d like to see more from him before saying we need to prioritize getting him ABs.

  239. You would take Haliburton over LaMelo and Edwards? What kind of Knicks fan are you?? Besides, Dolan’s Razor makes it a near certainty that Hali will be picked one spot before us and will go on to be a top-10 of all-time player.

  240. JK47:
    Best Beatles solo albums:

    1. All Things Must Pass
    2. Ram
    3. Plastic Ono Band
    4. Imagine
    5. Band On The Run

    my top 5 solo singles (one for each)

    lennon – (1a) working class hero/ (1b) cold turkey
    mccartney – maybe i’m amazed (live)
    harrison – would say my sweet lord but too controversial- so what is life
    ringo – it don’t come easy

    and my favorite rendition (actually this is just the Prince solo at the end) of guitar gently weeps…check out how he tosses the guitar at the end..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efhlDbZ4SmY

  241. thenoblefacehumper:
    The Gardner/Hicks/Tauchman/Frazier situation is tricky.

    Under normal circumstances I’d say Gardner has more than earned the right to work his way out of an early season slump (started a bit slow last year before putting up a great year), but with everything accelerated this season it’s hard to say.

    I still think the Hicks contract is great and if need be will be movable at any time (shout out to Courtney Lee), but Tauchman sure seems legit. Cashman can’t keep up with his own success when it comes to finding productive players on the scrap heap.

    Frazier has teased us before so I’d like to see more from him before saying we need to prioritize getting him ABs.

    I hear you on Gardy but Frazier ain’t gettin any younger and he needs AB’s at the big league level…I guess it is moot given Stanton will probably not play for a while so they can DH Frazier…but I can’t believe we have the almost rookie of the year/league leader in doubles from two years ago not on the roster so tyler wade can take up a wasted spot..i think we need either wade or estrada not both…boone gave some mumbo jumbo about why andujar is not up but something smells funky…

  242. Gentry let go. I bet they go for Kidd or Atkinson. Atkinson would benefit Zion tremendously with his game shape demands. Gentry just doesn’t strike me as the personality type that will stay on Zion about his diet and workouts. Not sure Gentry lands another HC job after this.

  243. That NOLA job is going to be a very good one. Atkinson may realize he lucked out in losing to Thibs here.

    What do people here think about Brandon Ingram after the season he just had? Worth making a poison pill offer sheet to?

  244. Z-man:
    Any fans of the great Johnny Cash’s version of the great Kris Kristofferson’s Sunday Morning Coming Down?
    There was some talk a while ago about a mt Rushmore of songwriters. Kristofferson probably deserves a spot up there. And Dee Dee Ramone
    Dylan and lou are automatics

    When I was a teenager I had the last 8 track player in America in my car. The let it be album and Beatles ‘65 were heavy in the rotation and they’re still my favorites today. Can’t make a case for either as the best Beatles album though

  245. I’d just like to add that I love Ringo’s version of ‘Act Naturally’ with the way he says ‘fool’ like ‘fiul’.

  246. NEw Orleans probably wishes they had Monty Williams back, but he probably just secured his Suns job for a while. I didn’t read the entire Sloane article on coach effects, but I read the beginning of it and one they said rings true, changing coaches can make you worse just as easily as it can make you better.

  247. The Honorable Cock Jowles:
    I want us to fall to any position where taking Haliburton is the only option

    (And thank you to the latest batch of Greek Chorus well-wishers)

    Was going to say the same thing. I would take Haliburton 1st overall in this draft but I don’t think there’s a chance in hell we would take him if we moved up at all. I’d rather stay put or even drop a spot if it means Haliburton’s the obvious best pick and we have to take him.

    Alan:
    That NOLA job is going to be a very good one. Atkinson may realize he lucked out in losing to Thibs here.

    What do people here think about Brandon Ingram after the season he just had? Worth making a poison pill offer sheet to?

    There really isn’t any sort of “poison pill” we can offer since Ingram was drafted in the 1st. I don’t know how much cap space we’re going to have next year but someone’s going to offer him a max, and New Orleans is definitely going to match, might as well be us. Honestly, I’d rather throw a bunch of money at Fred Vinson, their shooting coach.

  248. This Anderson character is fascinating — he really is Slo-Mo. Gives me hope for our own slo-mo RJ…

  249. That drive and layup by Morant a few plays back was absolutely beautiful.

    And then of course Clarke blows his assignment and gives up an alley-oop. Nurkic is really good.

  250. pretty damn fun game so far. praying 4q doesn’t become a whistlefest. nurkic is gonna put up a crazy line.

  251. Ja Morant would look like Elfrid Payton if he was a on a team where Julius Randle and Bobby Portis are your definition of floor spacing. Leave RJ out of this, please.

    Also, Bubble NBA is so much better than Spring basketball in the NBA. I hope they apply a lot of what made the bubble a great product to the 82 game schedule.

  252. I guess all you need for talent evaluation is to draft a tall euro guy whose last name ends in “ic”…and avoid “onja”…

  253. ja is in amazing shape…both teams playing really well…

    look at the score though – how in the world do you “defend” in the modern nba… everyone just spreads out.. so much room on the offensive end…

  254. Ja has a solid chance at an MVP award if they put a team around him. That dude is just born to play NBA ball. That tip pass! What the fuck!

  255. Z-man:
    I can’t believe no one here thought Brandon Clarke would be good.

    Too many people here get distracted by counting stats and highlights on youtube. We definitely need a more analytical approach to discussing basketball on this forum.

  256. Portland being Portland again. Dame, CJ, and Nurkic might never win a championship but damn can they ball.

  257. Too many people here get distracted by counting stats and highlights on youtube. We definitely need a more analytical approach to discussing basketball on this forum.

    Dare I say we need to start looking at advanced metrics, like PER and EFF.

  258. Does he play any D?

    He’s not a bad on the ball defender, but yeah, he’s so thin that it’s tough. He’s one of those dudes where it’s, like, “He’s 18. So if he transforms his body, which is clearly possible, then he could become a great player.” But who the heck knows if a guy can transform his entire body? It’s the crappiest of crapshoots.

  259. What do people here think about Brandon Ingram after the season he just had? Worth making a poison pill offer sheet to?

    Definitely. The problem is that they’ll just match it right away.

  260. What’s funny is that NOLA would have been a good gig for Thibs, too.

    Poor Gentry. He’s just one of those really good guys who never quite seems to last as a head coach.

  261. Brian Cronin: What’s funny is that NOLA would have been a good gig for Thibs, too.

    I was against hiring Thibs and wanted to keep Miller around for another year. But now that we hired him, I’m feeling better about it. I think this a really good situation for him because Mitch is a perfect Thibs-style player and there are low expectations. He is also a NY-type guy.

    But yeah, NO is way more ready to win than we are. And the Cajun name would have gone over well in Big Easy.

  262. Tom Thibodeau and Kenny Payne are going to turn Mitchell Robinson into an All-NBA player if everything I read about those two is accurate.

  263. Ingram’s gonna get the max and they’re just going to have to hope he keeps developing into a star. Solid performance this year.

  264. I am surprised at how good Nurkic is. What a great contract! I hope we can ink Mitch to that sort of deal. And Whiteside falls off the books at $27 mill. Portland has done a really good job of teambuilding.

  265. Bummed I missed the play-in game. Highlights were great.

    Some crazy /- splits. Clarke was -27 and Anthony Tolliver was 21.

  266. I liked that Blazer team last year before Nurkik got hurt. They were more balanced with Aminu and Harkless instead of Melo. They probably needed another scorer like Melo, but Nurkik was building towards becoming a more consistent 3rd option. I guess it worked out OK because Aminu was hurt most of the year and I’m hoping we keep Harkless. But they have serious issues on defense that imo weren’t as nearly as bad with Aminu and Harkless.

  267. Prozingis made 2nd team “all bubble”.

    He had a great run. over 30 points, well over 60% TS%, and close to 10 rebounds

  268. thenoblefacehumper:
    The Gardner/Hicks/Tauchman/Frazier situation is tricky.

    Under normal circumstances I’d say Gardner has more than earned the right to work his way out of an early season slump (started a bit slow last year before putting up a great year), but with everything accelerated this season it’s hard to say.

    I still think the Hicks contract is great and if need be will be movable at any time (shout out to Courtney Lee), but Tauchman sure seems legit. Cashman can’t keep up with his own success when it comes to finding productive players on the scrap heap.

    Frazier has teased us before so I’d like to see more from him before saying we need to prioritize getting him ABs.

    Clint took offense to your doubt…he’s looking good tonight…

  269. Z-man:
    I think the Lakers have lots of problems and Portland will take them deep.

    They haven’t looked good but I can’t tell if James is just coasting a little in these meaningless games or actually hurting a little. They have other injuries too.

    When you have James and Davis you really don’t “need” a solid consistent 3rd option, but it’s way better if you do. They need someone else to step up from time to time.

    I like this Portland team, but if they don’t play defense and LA is 100% playing both sides, Lilliard is going to have to be magical.

  270. I like Portland’s team speed. They kept up with Memphis, which is no easy task. They may not have enough D, but if I were them, I’d run out on the Lakers every time.

  271. I don’t follow Baseball much, so I had to look up Miller and Frazier. When I did I had a Basketball thought. Frazier was drafted at nineteen and no one expected him to play big league ball right away. The Yankees traded for him when he was twenty three and still didn’t expect him to play right away. The Knicks draft players at those ages and if they are not impact players right away, they are bums. It makes me want to have more patience with our young players; not just Ntilikina, who comes to mind right away, but Barrett, Smith, Iggy, Wooten and others.

  272. ***I don’t follow Baseball much, so I had to look up Miller and Frazier. When I did I had a Basketball thought. Frazier was drafted at nineteen and no one expected him to play big league ball right away. The Yankees traded for him when he was twenty three and still didn’t expect him to play right away. The Knicks draft players at those ages and if they are not impact players right away, they are bums. It makes me want to have more patience with our young players; not just Ntilikina, who comes to mind right away, but Barrett, Smith, Iggy, Wooten and others.***

    Baseball rookie contracts are 7 years long, there are 40 spots on the roster, and there’s no salary cap. All things equal, patience is good. But when it comes to spending scarce resources on children, they need to have more than just potential. It’s the system the NBA has created for itself to operate under and good teams navigate it better than bad teams. (In baseball, the rich teams do it better — maybe Dolan should buy a baseball team!)

  273. Donnie I’m not sure if Knicks management can do anything better than be patient at this point given that the one draft pick that they clearly did well on, KP, was traded for mostly future potential, which kind of set our path unless we hit it big in the free agent market which is a Knicks’ fairy tale.

    If Dolan bought the Mets do you think that would bring them better management?

  274. I would add that the 40 spots on a baseball roster are comparable to the fifteen on a basketball one. In baseball you need nine or ten pitchers in the regular rotation plus eight non pitching starters for a total of 17 or 18 players. Adding in a few players that are regular subs, like pinch hitters or a second catcher gets you to twenty player or half the roster. That’s similar to the eight active players out of fifteen total in the NBA.

  275. Bo Nateman:
    In 1999, the Dolans made an attempt to buy the Mets, but apparently, Nelson Doubleday was not in favor. https://www.amazinavenue.com/2014/2/17/5404240/new-york-mets-ownership-cablevision-when-the-wilpons-met-the-dolans
    Very speculative, but had they succeeded in buying the Mets, Dolan may not have purchased the Knicks, or at the least not been as involved. We’d have a whole different history.

    Interesting but I don’t think it would have affected the Knicks. The Dolans were part owners of the Knicks for years and I believe took over full ownership a couple of years before this.

  276. i’m not certain i can watch more than two games a day anymore…every once in awhile i’ll catch a few games over the weekend, but, yeah, wow, i’ve been watching lots of basketball lately…

    series i’m most looking forward to – east: celtics v 76’s, pacers v heat; west: rockets v thunder, lakers v blazers

    on a much more interesting note, been doing a deep dive on star wars lately…went through some interesting stories from the rebels series…the series arc finale was really strong, lot of lore references, and a really crazy ending…crazy as in “something” appears which i didn’t even know existed in that universe…it was really weird, but interesting…gonna take another look at the mandalorian, looks like season 2 may introduce a fan (and personal) favorite…their first appearance in live action…

    i kind of, sort of remember the marvel comic series (i wasn’t that in to collecting when it came out), there’s a chance some of those stories might get told on screen…

    yeah, those 400 post threads are a bit of a scrolling battle from time to time….

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