From Steve Popper:
A day after adding Walt Perrin to serve as assistant general manager with a focus on college personnel, Knicks president Leon Rose will bring on former Nets assistant general manager Frank Zanin to pair with Perrin.
According to a league source, Zanin is finalizing a deal to serve as the Knicks assistant general manager/pro personnel. He joins Perrin and Brock Aller, who signed on earlier this month to serve as chief strategist, handling the salary cap
Zanin most recently served as a scout for the Thunder, a role he held the last four years. Prior to that, he served a variety of roles for the Nets, joining Billy King, who he had worked for with the 76ers, as a pro personnel scout and then earning promotions to director of player procurement and then assistant general manager.
He began his NBA career with the 76ers, serving as a scout for nine years in the city where he grew up – and played high school basketball where he developed a relationship with Kobe Bryant, who played for a rival school. Zanin got an endorsement for the Nets’ full-time GM job four years ago from Bryant, who tweeted, “Hope to see you in the GM seat for the @BrooklynNets @F1E2Z you have a great basketball mind and it’s time you get your shot #gogetit.”
Would I prefer the Knicks to be hiring some of the hot executives out there? Of course, but eh, at least so far Rose has been bringing in non-offensive guys, as well. It’s not like he’s bringing on Stephon Marbury as Assistant GM. These guys are all probably competent enough.
I also suspect that Rose will go for a big name next season,anyways, and these guys could just as easily serve that new big name.
Anyhow, just normal hires is a good day for the Knicks these days.
EDITED TO ADD: Stefan Bondy notes that Craig Robinson, Gerald Madkins and Harold Ellis will not be retained. Robinson was clearly way too close to Mills to stick around and I barely recall the other two guys, sadly.
132 replies on “Newsday: Knicks finalizing deal with Frank Zanin to be assistant GM, source says”
So, do the new hires suggest a possible fate for the current coach or a next coach?
I saw Lord of the Flies come up in the other thread. I had the joy of teaching that for several years. Not sure that Piggy is good comp for Strat or anyone else on the board, though. I could explain, but spoilers! I’m kind of like Simon, though… 🙂
I followed the “primary sources” posts, but I really think ideology is the ruling factor in how most people evaluate media reports from wherever. If it fits one’s world view, then it must be true. If not, fake news.
So Rose has assistant GMs for scouting pro players, for scouting college players, for salary cap calculation and for negotiating contracts and deals (Perry). That seems like a lot of of people for that, but if they are going to be road warriors when scouting I can see you need more than one.
It’s good that we have a new thread. I can tell we were all distraught in that last one because many of us have been harboring realistic expectations of Giannis coming to the Knicks and we lashed out at Strat after Berman dashed those hopes.
I thiiiiink that the Knicks had guys doing those same jobs (presumably the guys who are not being brought back), they just weren’t called assistant GMs. My bet is that it is just Rose replacing Mills’ guys for those duties with his own guys.
Fair point, Clash fan. Strat is not Piggy (he’s obviously our own Pierce Hawthorne), but the way so many turned on him at once evoked feelings of the bloodthirst that killed him. Jowles, IMO, was civilly sparring with the guy and delivering reasonable haymakers. The fight should have been stopped. Instead it turned into a pile on when he was down.
I can’t say Strat didn’t stir up the nest. Uncle Geo is right: he really shouldn’t come out swinging like he does if he can’t take the punches. But I struggle to watch him get ganged up on when it gets mean. Bob Neptune can take on all comers, and enjoys it. Strat is a gentler fellow.
I do hope he comes back. Part of me hopes he comes back with a different moniker and pretends to be new, because he’ll be the easiest person who ever did that to spot.
rose did keep perry in the building, but, i’d be amazed if he let miller stay…as much as i liked the way miller handled himself – if the choice is thibs or miller, i’d hope for thibs…
I’m hoping Miller would stay on under Thibs as an assistant. Might seem like a demotion but Miller hasn’t really had a shot in the big leagues and working under Thibs if the team was successful would probably lead to a head coaching job somewhere in a few years. And I think Miller’s no nonsense, drama free approach would fit in nicely with Thibs. I could see him taking that role and not undermining Thibs out of some weird jealousy.
Re whether we want flashier hires
I have been thirsty for Masai for years now. So all these hires aren’t going to impress much.
They do tell me Rose is firmly in charge and not looking to delegate. He could have carved out a niche for a rising star type and definitely did not.
I worry Rose projects as more of a star$%^@$% type with the wrong idea about how to create a good team. But I don’t have much to go on outside of his association with Melo and other stray data points. Just have to reserve judgment and hope for the best.
The only reason you hire a guy like Leon Rose is to use his connections to build with superstar talent and competent executives.
The only hire i would want that would be considered flashy is Masai, but I figured the boat sailed on that one when Rose was hired. Didn’t think of the Bulls hire as flashy, but good and forward thinking. I’d say these hires are good but not that forward thinking.
What would really make me happy is a good analytics hire. Wooboy that would be nice.
About strat, and others on here, we should all do our best to avoid personal insults here. Obviously we are used to a little bit of contention and sarcasm here, but many of us have been home, stressed, with a very unhealthy balance of life, work, family, sunshine, exercise, etc.
Let’s be welcoming.
I’d hate this place to become a hivemind. We shouldn’t believe we know it all, and all other opinions suck, (although frequently they do :). There’s a reason our music and movies threads are awesome, it’s because we’re all so different
” Bob Neptune can take on all comers, and enjoys it. Strat is a gentler fellow.”
My strength is that of ten because my heart is pure………
Are you levying that accusation against Strat? It’s not too hard to argue that Strat’s position on knowledge is exclusionary of the rest of us. He implies that what we read and how we think and argue is faulty because — well, because it’s not the way that Strat does it. It’s personally insulting for him to tell me that everything I read is tinted by such a bias that I am unable to deduce reporting from opinion, or a categorical statement of fact from argument. And when he is called on it, he doubles down.
“Because I’m old and smart, and you’re too young to understand” is not one that I give an ounce of respect to. I spit on it before I bury its rotten Boomer carcass in the ground. It’s the stuff of the erosion of critical thinking. It’s the kind of stuff that makes you invent a wholly subjective 140-point rating system, as though you were a caricature of a scout illustrated by Moneyball, and hold it above every box-score metric available to the public, as though the shortcomings of the latter necessarily propound some rigorous foundations of the former. And so it came as no surprise to me that the same person with this attitude is also of the sort to suggest that private citizens should exclusively read primary documents, again, as though it were not the very fabric of good, existing investigative journalism, as though there were not respected teams dedicated to incredible acts of public service by those who doggedly run down primary documents and produce new ones through interview and motions of discovery.
There was no personal insult toward him except that his whole epistemological worldview is made of papier mache.
I have no opinion on Strat’s self-imposed exile. That’s his choice. I definitely don’t think he should be banned.
The idea that he’s treated unfairly is ridiculous, though. People respond to his opinions just like they respond to everyone else’s opinions. The difference is he thinks his opinions are inherently better than everyone else’s by virtue of age, horse racing, etc. so he doesn’t engage with any information that contradicts them, and he’s very snappy towards anyone who challenges them.
At the end of the day there’s not really a great way to make accommodations for someone who has basically said countless times that he can’t be wrong because he’s simply smarter than everyone else. He does himself no favors by insisting his opinions operate on a higher plane, while also having very bad opinions on a wide variety of issues.
So yeah, he can come back whenever he wants, and if he says some stupid shit it should be challenged, which is the exact same thing every poster here has been subject to forever.
Also, we can all admit it’s hilarious that Strat, who definitely has some strong opinions about PC culture run amok on college campuses or whatever, literally could not handle his opinions on basketball being challenged.
The snowflake generation, truly.
BTW, were it not for the coronavirus, I’d be in NYC right about now. My wife and I were coming as part of our 30 year anniversary celebration. We honeymooned partially in NYC back in…gulp…1990. We’d booked a Manhattan hotel for May 19-23, but had to cancel, of course.
Maybe next year.
nice work jowles – point taken on journalism…i tend to lump things together at times myself…there is though accurate and meaningful work being done – i wonder what percentage of us all are really paying attention…how few of us all take action…i’m not, my world barely extends 30 miles beyond my front door…i’m worried about shipping and charlotte’s web, and how the hell am i gonna get rid of this 10 lbs i just gained over the last month or so…especially if d-red keeps slipping food in to my mind…
talk about human frailty – chocolate is absolutely kicking my ass right…for some reason my brain is telling itself i should continually be rewarded just for making it through the day…i seem to currently need some kind of payout damn near hour by hour…cocaine wasn’t this demanding…
it takes effort to be informed…i’m continually amazed by those whom actually take positive action beyond their work…
oh – i have a question…if the choice is:
a). mask
b). neck scarf
c). bandanna
which one are you going out in…to the bank…so far i’ve been a bandanna kind of guy in public…work is mostly a mask cuz it’s quicker to get on and off…still need to buy some neck scarfs…
i have a buddy that collected bandannas from different shows he went to…wish i had picked up some now…
it’s starting to get hot out here now, so, a mask may be the way to go – but, seeing as how i am a fan of westerns, i’m kind of digging the bandanna look…
lots of ladies with sexy eyes…years ago at one of the company conferences our distributor from abu dhabi brought in a whole bunch of ladies covered head to toes – except for their eyes and hands to work around their exhibit area…they were pretty hot…
Jowles, I was levying my accusations first at Strat himself, as he’s always been insufferable. But also at the gleeful mockery that followed his departure. Made me uncomfortable.
Me, I’m happy when I get someone criticizing my post because (a) I don’t think I’m as good a sports statistician as you guys so would love to learn, and (b) it means someone read it.
I also want to say I always look forward to posts by geo and Jowles, the former because they’re always awesome, and the latter because it’s usually smart and assholey.
Geo, I don’t remember where you live but if you’re in an enclosed area with COVID in town, would wear at least a surgical mask, as it spread via respiratory droplets, which is mostly water – I don’t think cotton is a good deterrent for water.
we’ve been very fortunate to not have been too heavily hit by the virus in this area…
when i was looking at masks online supposedly cotton was preferred to polyester or that microfiber stuff…
the mask thing though is mainly to prevent me from spewing my saliva all over the place…which is why I wanna pick up some of those stretchable neck scarf things…they do look a bit more comfortable…
I have a few cowboy hats in the closet along with some boots…gotta wear at least the hat with the bandanna next time I need to visit the bank…
just need to think of an excuse now to need to speak to a teller…
On the new subject: I have no idea who this guy is, so I’m unsure what to think, but that might be better than just being angry at a hiring of someone we know it’s bad, so hey, extra points.
On the same as always subject, jowles already covered it all. I’ve been in academics for 12 years now and I’ve had to spend a lot of time around older people who managed to somehow combine ignorance and arrogance seamlessly. I can take arrogance if you’re a genius, and I can respect ignorance if you’re willing to discuss fairly and are willing to learn and change. I can’t take both traits combined, and I certainly won’t make the option of spending my free time doing something I’m already obligated to do, which is argue with people that are like that. When your final answer to an argument is: you’re too young to understand what I mean, what happens is that the debate is instantly over. I can’t magically become 60 tomorrow, and there’s nothing that can be said that can potentially turn this argument around. It’s an argument that only does one thing, which is to exclude a large number or people from ever being able to respond. It’s exclusionary and narrow minded, not to say very very often just plain wrong. Even if we were to accept this sort of bullshit as a valid argument, it would be pointless, because it’s the sort of argument that destroys arguing itself.
He can post as much as he wants, I personally just won’t engage him, like I’ve been doing for months literally. And if every discussion on the board becomes strat against the world, then there’s nothing I can add without doing the same thing I’m refusing to do. I can feel empathy for a person who’s simply misguided or passionate about something to a fault; I won’t feel empathy for an arrogant person who repeatedly argued he’s so much better than anyone else here.
The funny thing is, a lot of us are old.
And nobody, of any age, argues that Phil Jackson did a good job as executive of the Knicks. It’s a universally accepted fact by every living generation that he failed. Why die on that hill?
Jowles, TNFH, well said by both of you.
This board has a lot of impressive minds. The kind of people that will fact check you, look up source material, and dissect your arguments.
If some of us get too snarky, make it too personal, or take it too far, that is a fair criticism. I’m certainly guilty.
Strat is subject to the same level of scrutiny as everyone else. His arguments stink. Simple.
Bruno, on a personal note, I also had to work for insufferable boomer lawyers. I kept my mouth shut for a while, but once i started pushing back, I had no choice but to start my own law firm. They can’t handle any challenge to their perceived authority.
Geo— I’ve been going with the bandana for running, but it’s been a real challenge. I actually got wobbly from it two days in a row just because it restricts the oxygen so much (I only pull it up when people are around). Today was a little better because I went deep up the trails to where nobody was. Where we live (I think you and I are in the same general geographic area) people give dirty looks and choice words to people without masks, which I get. But, man, runners are going to end up in the hospital because of those dirty looks, which kind of defeats the whole flattening-the-curve exercise. (It’s a vicious cycle).
Strat is one of the few guys in here that haven’t “attacked” me despite Me being not Mother Theresa with my posts.
I ve been mocked, insulted and being proposed to leave the blog numerous times by many primadonas cause they didn’t agree with me/didn’t like my posts but not even once from this guy.
Definitely One of the Best in here.
Despite being right or wrong.
Now that Strat is gone, can the Corona-Blogger-hive-mind throw a few body shots at Hubert?
Our dear leader has started taking hydroxychloroquine. I think this is very bad, as he is doing it against the recommendation of the CDC, FDA, AMA, and every other acronym for a scientific-regulatory body.
My guess is that Hubert is cool with it, and this is all a big overreaction from the libs because the standard of care around the country remains normal.
that just sounds so refreshing donnie…i wanna be there – where nobody else is…you ever run across any cats?
when people think so cal they normally think beaches, freeways and desert…we actually though got some decent mountains around here…
yeah, i’m out here in the inland “empire”…i’ll tell you, after having grown up in the empire state – the word empire takes a serious nosedive in describing this area (unless you’re talking warehousing and shipping, in which case all power to long beach, LAX, I5, I15, and the 10)…
thankfully god son has been in to biking lately…the struggle to stay physically active is real…as you age – its necessity becomes even more crucial…
Nahnah, why would you purposefully start a fight with Hubert out of thin air? Do you really think the rest of us want to read what comes next? Give the eye-poking a break.
And I agree with most of the posts today (although now I suspect that will end shortly), but for the record, arrogance and ignorance is not limited to one’s elders. I’m afraid those characteristics are just as rampant in the young.
You’ve actually become one of the best posters at civilly disagreeing with people. I didn’t find you to be insulting at all in your treatment of his poor argument.
It seemed like a pile on after you took him down, though. I don’t know, maybe I was too sensitive.
I would never tell you to leave but I do want to pull your mask off and see what old poster you are. The default guess is always reub, but you seem different. I remember a dude names “er” that sounded like you.
Sorry to spoil any fantasies but i was, am and will always be Knew Your Nicks.
Till ban do our ass part!
He definitely does not write like er did, that’s for sure. Er also showed up a couple of times relatively recently when Melo was making his comeback.
I do agree that a lot of youngsters are both ignorant and arrogant, Raven, but this particular brand of arrogance that comes with thinking your personal experience is the truth because you’ve lived longer than someone is very common, specially in academics, in older people. Although academics is a cesspool of arrogance in general, at least most people tend to be at least fairly knowledgeable of the particular subject they’re speaking about for the most part.
I’ve never seen reason to go against Hubert in the same way. I don’t particularly agree with his typical brand of neutrality, in the sense of trying to understand both sides and correct perceived imbalances in the collective, but I can respect the method. It’s an important thing to do to avoid a closed circuit type of effect, a hivemind if you will, so I respect it, even if I generally disagree about the hills he chooses to die on lol.
During the early to mid 80s and while I was just a little kid i was hooked by Heavy Metal music. I was trying to listen it on the radio(rare), watch it on tv(extremely rare), change cassettes, lps with other fans, read magazines, go to concerts whenever i had the chance and talk about it with other die hard fans all day long!
Metal then was considered as an underground extreme rock genre that could lead you easily to satanism, suicide or dementia! Very badly famed…
Fortunately for my love and passion for it metal became very popular through bands like Judas Priest, Iron Maiden and others and peaked with Metallica during their universally acclaimed black album which conquered the charts all over the world and made metal music respectable and mainstream.
After that Metal music lost its underground edge and despite being more accessible than ever it lost its character and its “soul”.
I lived the whole metal trip from the days of shame to the top of the world very closely.
My personal metal experience is the truth.
Or to put it better Part of the truth.
I hear from many much later fans of metal music “this” and “that”….
And i just Know…better.
Cause i happen to be there….during the peak.
And Live the shit!
Arrogance ?
Just Experience.
Respect Experience.
“Our dear leader has started taking hydroxychloroquine. I think this is very bad, as he is doing it against the recommendation of the CDC, FDA, AMA, and every other acronym for a scientific-regulatory body.”
I’m not sure why it is necessary to call our President “our dear leader”…. it kinda argues against objectivity. I believe back in the day they used to call that “poisoning the well.” You need to look more carefully into things and not just swallow the claptrap fed to you by the media. Allow me to bring some dispassionate facts to the table:
While it is certainly true all major organizations recommend against HIGH DOSE OH-Chloroquine (600mg), low does OH Chloroquine (100mg) has been used forever as prophylaxis with virtually zero side effects in people without renal failure so at low doses it is perfectly safe,
From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7152897/
The promising results of chloroquine in treatment of COVID-19 and the low prevalence of side effects in long-term use suggest a possible use of chloroquine at 100 mg daily or hydroxychloroquine at 300 mg weekly in mass prophylaxis in people exposed to COVID-19, and could be part of urgent interventions currently required to help to protect healthcare workers combating COVID-19 at the very frontline [16]. Chemoprophylaxis with chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine could prevent the COVID-19 associated pneumonia and block the transmission by reducing the number of asymptomatic carriers.
Also many many front line healthcare workers take OH-Chloroquine for prophylaxis
https://www.sermo.com/press-releases/sermo-reports-one-quarter-of-global-physicians-agree-that-healthcare-workers-should-take-hydroxychloroquine-to-prevent-covid-19-infections-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-prophylaxis-and-even-in-undiag/
So there is a large body of evidence that argues Trump’s decision to take Chloroquine for prophylaxis is evidence based and likely wise.
Sorry to break the bad news to you…
Geez you don’t check in for a couple of weeks and Strat goes out into the wilderness. Crazy days.
At any rate, I honestly don’t know enough about any of the guys being hired, but it at least seems Rose is casting a pretty wide net and getting some really experienced guys in. They probably aren’t the sexiest names getting around, but it’s nice we aren’t just going for splashy hires.It does feel like the chairs are being rearranged to get Houston a promotion.
Hope you are all keeping safe. If anyone is starved for sport, we have some pro-sport start up next week if anyone is interested in Rugby ha ha. Australian Rules to follow in mid-June, so looking forward to not watching old replays (although I loved watching the 70’s championships recently which I had never seen).
You see what I did there, Raven? In soccer, they call that a dummy pass. The ball came right to me, and you thought I was going to play it, but I knew Bob Neptune was behind me so I let it go through my legs.
https://youtu.be/KnLcq32wSwY
I’m just slightly offended that you didn’t use the most iconic dummy paas leading to a goal ever as an example, Ronaldo’s second goal in the 2002 World Cup Finals.
https://youtu.be/k6xteH5ryHM
This is kind of a golden age of metal really. There is a lot of batshit insane metal being made by wonderful weirdoes all over the world.
I tend to like my metal on the extreme side though. So YMMV.
Also the black album eats ass
Maybe I just didn’t want anyone to have to see that haircut again.
Not like I want to see Ronaldo either after all the crap he’s pulled in the last couple of years, but I’ll allow myself this one piece of nostalgia lol
I mean, Hubert, I guess good on you for not taking the bait. I was totally baiting you. Although if Bobby N is carrying your water, I don’t suggest you drink it. It might be bleach.
“I mean, Hubert, I guess good on you for not taking the bait. I was totally baiting you. Although if Bobby N is carrying your water, I don’t suggest you drink it. It might be bleach.”
You don’t care to comment on what was written do you….. completely unsurprising…. but please continue with the snark……
The black album is the Pink Floyd Metal album.
Almost any living creature can relate to!
Not exactly my metal cup of tea too but you can’t call it bad!
Metallica are the greatest metal (and Heavy in general) band ever for me:
The Holy Trilogy is simply flawless
One click lower:
Garage days ep
…and justice for all
One more click lower
Black album
After that They’re OFF.
As for extreme metal as a Die Hard Slayer and Morbid Angel fan i guess i know a bit about it but really can’t find something very exciting to me lately..
Can’t listen to Black and Prog Metal.
No Way.
Slayer is my favorite metal band of all time but Metallica was right up there with them through …And Justice For All. To me the Black Album is dreck though, I can’t listen to that at all. It’s the Aerosmith “Pump” of thrash metal.
Most metal that I like that’s contemporary is on the way “out” side of things, and if you’re not into black metal or death metal or doom this probably isn’t a great era for you. That stuff is not for everybody. The more extreme and bizarre, the more I tend to like it. The evolution of metal is to just get heavier and more extreme as time passes, and a lot of it has gotten downright avant garde at this point.
Despite considering Metallica the best heavy band ever i also believe that the best metal album is from Slayer. (Whaaaat?)
Yes.
Reign in Blood.
That’s the Mothership for Me.
The peak of the style.
Extremity, Chaos, Bizarreness and Mayhem are definitely wanted in Metal but also a level of musicianship, arrangement and melodical competency wouldn’t be bad !
With albums like Kill em all, rust in peace, reign in blood and co i find it truly hard to find something similar in quality nowadays.
Despite loving Morbid Angel’s extremity and coordinated chaos i can’t consider their albums Better than Metallica’s, Slayer’s Megadeth’s or even oldskool’s Maiden’s or Priest’s.
Let’s just say that i value more a balance of heaviness with grooves and melodies than an onslaught of sheer banging.
As someone who has spent the past 10 years trying to get my friends to listen to stuff like Meshuggah and Dødheimsgard, this comment really resonates with me jk lol. I used to be a huge fan of metal and went through all the different styles pretty much, but as I got older the bands that really stuck with me are generally the most extreme and bizarre always (and Tool and Opeth, because I still have a soft spot for them and I think I’ll always have)
In every music genre or style there’s the genesis of it. The proto phase, the peak and the decline. Sometimes there’s also the Revival.
For example Rock music’s peak was between 67-97.
Metal’s peak was between ’80-’90.
Before the peak phase there’s good music too but not yet “in full form & force” and after the peak phase originality starts to shrink and ideas are not so exciting anymore.Still a lot of good stuff going on tho.
As for styles for example Prog Rock’s starts around 1967 before fully formed in 1969.(king crimson debut) From then to 1977 we have the peak. Then Punk came and Prog died instantly!
Are there any good or even great prog rock albums after 1977 ? Sure there are but Not as great and as many as before 77.
Prog Rock stuff of high quality is being released till now but on a revival way (the bands always remind of something from the golden era artists)
The sound has slightly changed, the mixes with other genres and styles are close to original but unfortunately “the thrill is gone”.
Sounds like it’s been played before.
I think that peak metal came with 9th symphony second movement from Beethoven
gentlemen, do ya’ll think you can just stay focused on the basketball for just once…focus…focus…
just kidding…
hey dtrickey, glad to hear you’re well…what did you mean by this:
He’s proven to be systematically unable to deal with facts. The cognitive dissonance is strong in that one. When presented with information that counters a hot take he read on Medium, he’ll just misread the words on the page. Ironic for someone who touts himself as statistically inclined, but, as you said…. completely unsurprising.
ok ok..2 assistant GM’s and a renowned capoligist? I think it’s safe to say Scott Perry’s days are more than numbered. However, if they can make it work with all 4 under Rose, I really like the makeup of the new FO. Rose apparently is no dummy. He’s saying “I have no experience in these areas and the Knicks were kinda weak in those same areas, so let me hire guys to turn those into a strength”. He’s really going heavy handed in addressing the management deficiencies. I can’t wait to see the new coaching staff under Mike Miller. With these new FO hires, I am 90% all in on keeping Miller. Atkinson would still be a good hire, but let’s see what Miller can do with his own staff
Oh, I took Bobby N’s bait. I clicked the links he shared. True story, I love to be wrong. It’s actually how you get better at things. By being terribly wrong and getting your world view rocked. Unsurprisingly, the links did not say what Bobby N said that they said. One link was an INTRO to a proposed clinic trial on hydroxy that has not yet been conducted. Bobby N is quoting the primer to the study as evidence. Do I even need to explain why that is terrible evidence? The other study he identified was from a physician’s social media channel, saying that some percent of physicians worldwide have recommended the drug. Do I need to explain why that is terrible? Are these physicians specifically tasked with dealing, and studying, with these issues? Did the study suggest in any way that it’s an appropriate remedy for a man in Trump’s precarious health position? For a guy who just shat on Medium posts, you are now relying on a social media poll. Is the what they call the sweet science?
All you Stratolites try so hard to buck the trend. I get it, bucking the trend is fun. But please do it after you achieve some level of domain expertise or take the time to understand the view promogulated by domain experts. You can’t go straight to trend-bucking. It’s just poor discipline and lazy.
Here, start with the easy to digest secondary sources, and then move into the more direct and technical evidence.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/trumps-hydroxychloroquine-microcosm/611836/
https://www.fda.gov/media/137250/download
This is all about the burden of proof.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
If you buck the statistical argument in favor of the eye-test, you can do so, but you will carry a tremendous burden to convince this board that your eye-test is superior.
If you buck the argument put forth by the FDA or CDC, you can do so, but you will carry a tremendous burden to convince this board that your knowledge is superior.
i’m not sure how streets ahead strat is…
Ok I read both of Bob’s links. The first is indeed a proposal to do a double blind study of Chloroquine’s effectiveness as a prophylactic against Covid. Like all grant proposals it starts be reviewing past results and explaining why they support the case for doing their study. Some studies cited show that chloroquine works in vitro, that is, in a test tube, not in the body. It’s very common to test in vitro first. If it didn’t work in vitro it’s much less like to work in vivo (in the body) but lots of things work in vitro but not in vivo. So you have to do more tests after showing it works in a test tube. It then cites studies that had no controls that showed a benefit and cites one small study that had controls and showed a benefit but was so small it was only suggestive of potential, not proof of anything. It mentions a number of other studies on chloroquine but doesn’t describe their results, which I think is because many of them didn’t find a beneficial result. Of course, many of those other studies might have their own problems. Overall the proposal makes the study sound worth doing but needs review by scientists familiar with all the literature and it needs comparison to other Covid studies that could be funded instead. My conclusion, no proof but could be worth doing the study.
The other link doesn’t give any evidence that Chloroquine works, it just reports that many physicians prescribe it for COVID. I believe the report, but give no weight to those physician’s decisions that Chloroquine works. It could be the snake oil of the 2020’s. Snake oil and other remedies that turned out to be remedies for nothing are one of the reasons the FDA exists. Things need testing, even if they are promising.
As a practicing researcher for many years, I can’t tell you how many things sound great and have promising initial results but don’t work out in practice.
To conclude, I will paraphrase a Nobel prize winning chemist. He developed a new synthetic method that used quite unusual ingredients and was asked if he really believed it was going to work when he first tried it. He said yes, he did, but he also believed that the twenty plus other methods he tried without success before that were also going to work. You can believe in your theories, but you have to accept that they are often wrong and test them before you claim they are the answer
Also, The sort of evidence Bob posted for Chloroquine is no more compelling than the statistics and opinions many people cite in favor of many potential basketball draftees. Most of those draftees don’t work out.
I love this board
Just so it’s clear, my self imposed exile (which is being broken for 1 post) is due to the fact that this forum started reminding me of my experience on the old David Berry blog from years ago. I disagreed with much of the prevailing wisdom there also. At a certain point it became obvious to me I was wasting my time arguing with them because everyone was locked into their positions, we kept debating the same nonsense over and over, and there was no upside in it for me.
If I’m guilty of anything, it’s a level of arrogance that comes with decades of experience already being wrong some things but eventually figuring them out. I’ve already been down same wrong paths, had the same misunderstandings, and made the same mistakes others are making now. I’m still learning, but on some things I’ve already been there and done that. I don’t want to argue about what I already know I am right about.
And for the record, I 100% stand by my comments about the modern news media.
Back in the day, guys like Tim Russert (and others) were not shy about their own politics. But when they did their shows they set that aside. They presented ALL sides of every debate, gave everyone fair chance, and allowed the public to try to sort out all the positions and come to a conclusion.
Now, both side of the news media are occupied by propagandists, people so consumed with hate for the other side they can’t see how twisted their own reporting and thinking is, people that are hired gun liars working to advance the political agenda of the party they are associated with, assorted scumbags that will say or do anything to advance that agenda etc..
IMO, they are horrible human beings that have veered away from their job in a democracy. And I don’t care about the exceptions. There are exceptions in all scummy industries. I’m talking about the industry as a whole. Its a disgrace. And if you watch MM and form your world view based on these scumbags you are a moron.
Last point, I did like the latest hire. So the Knicks can occasionally do something I like.
A note on Perrin from one of my buddies who also happens to be a hardcore Jazz fan. Jazz beat writers regard Perrin as a behind the scenes badass and an excellent talent evaluator/contracts guy with regard to the draft. He was largely responsible for orchestrating the logistics of convincing D Mitch to work out for the Jazz even though at the time they only had the 24th pick.
Strat is in exile until the next time Kristaps Porzingis puts up 31 points and 12 boards on solid efficiency
We’ll meet again, Strat. We’ll meet again someday.
You keep saying “watch” and I keep saying “read.” Do you honestly believe that 24-hour cable news and the New York Times’ reporting are the same?
“Our dear leader has started taking hydroxychloroquine. I think this is very bad, as he is doing it against the recommendation of the CDC, FDA, AMA, and every other acronym for a scientific-regulatory body.”
Your stated supposition was that Orange Man was doing something you felt was”very bad” and against the advice of all competent medical advice (taking OH-Chloroquine for prophylaxis).
I posted link one to prove that taking Plaquenil is virtually harmless at low doses and hence not “dangerous”
I posted link 2 to show 22% of medical professionals surveyed world wide have either prescribed it prophylaxically or seen others do the same, so its not some tin foil hat idea.
And I post link 3 to show there is hard science in the lab that implied it might be most effective as a prophylaxis agent:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30296-6/fulltext
Cliffs notes….. until the results are in from the Henry Ford study are in no one knows if it helps for prophylaxis but it is a perfectly reasonable course of action …… unlike what you stated in your OP
To be frank, if you watch CNN, it’s at almost a Fox News level of bias. These two networks are responsible for most of the country’s news consumption. Statistically, no one is reading newspapers, and the few that are still in business are shills- NY Times is more of a shill than CNN- the 1619 project is the quintessence of the attitude that made so much of non-coastal white America turn to Fox News and Trump. I am not saying they are right/
For someone who likes to be a skeptic of both parties, there’s no where to turn for news.
Bob is demonstrating the Gish Gallop here.
He throws out studies that don’t really support his case all that well, but he wins because it takes more time to refute the thing he posted than it does to post the thing itself. And then when you refute it patiently he simply takes two seconds to move the goalposts.
I’ve stopped responding to the Gish Gallop but I admire anybody who has the patience to take it on.
NahNah, please remind me what evidence you brought to the table besides appeals to authority. How did you fulfill the burden of proof?
And for the record, your assumption of my take on the hydroxychloroquine was – unsurprisingly – wrong.
Here’s my take: I don’t have one. I don’t need to have one. Just because something is trending on twitter doesn’t mean I have to disrupt my life and learn about it so I can be a smug asshole on the internet.
I took anti-malarials as a kid but not hydroxycholoroquine. I took something called Lariam, active ingredient chloroquine, and I still remember the nightmares I had. Just the most savage and intense things you could imagine. It was horrific. Some serious death metal dreams.
It seems quite obvious that it’s worth studying. It also seems obvious that absent any hard data saying it’s a good idea you might want to consider carefully any drug whose side effects test the character count.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/hydroxychloroquine-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20064216
A family member with a heart condition was thinking about taking it. Thankfully they were dissuaded.
I do find it kind of funny that some side effects include.
*feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
*feeling that others can hear your thoughts
*feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
Will be hard to know if Trump has adverse reactions….
And then:
What happened to the “large body of evidence” from the last post? Sounds like it turned into a shrug emoticon.
The FDA is an appropriate appeal to authority. I have passed the burden.
The Knicks Front Office is an inappropriate appeal to authority. This does not pass the burden.
KnickfaninNJ, that is the most damn impressive analysis I have ever seen you post. Hot fire dog. Thorough, critical analysis. Damn.
“I have a few cowboy hats in the closet along with some boots…gotta wear at least the hat with the bandanna next time I need to visit the bank…
just need to think of an excuse now to need to speak to a teller…”
LOL
A Morricone Western ringtone on the cellphone would add iconic flavor to that scene!
I’m sorry Bob, but I don’t see how the fact that 22% of doctors are trying Chloroquine in any way contradicts the statement “ he is doing it against the recommendation of the CDC, FDA, AMA, and every other acronym for a scientific-regulatory body.”. Lots of fans though Melo was good when he longer was and that could have included 22% of GMs. So what?
And there are no scientific studies cited in your links at all that show data that Chloroquine works as a prophylactic agent (as opposed to treatment for an active disease state).
I took your bait and read the FDA article.
It says there are risks. Great. It says the same thing about Tylenol.
It says if you’re a doctor, you should go ahead and prescribe it to people who have Covid-19 and are hospitalized, to people with Malaria, to people with Lupus, and to people with rheumatoid arthritis. The risks are present for all of them, but the benefits outweigh the risks.
It says that there is “limited evidence that the medicines may provide benefit [to patients with COVID-19], and for this reason, we authorized their use only in hospitalized patients under careful heart monitoring”. Hmm…Limited evidence isn’t no evidence, is it? Everything has limited evidence right now. Isn’t their opinion that it has risks to nonhosptialized covid-19 patients based on limited evidence, too?
It basically is a nothing burger that says “we don’t have sufficient evidence of anything,, please wait until we can do more tests”, but you think it says something totally different because YOU CAN’T FUCKING READ, DUDE!!! Seriously, give it up, man. Your argument was just as weak as Bob’s.
I’mma go back to not giving a fuck. Post more links to The Atlantic and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
Well at least we all agree that Bob’s argument sucks.
Thanks NahNah, that’s very nice of you.
“Also, The sort of evidence Bob posted for Chloroquine is no more compelling than the statistics and opinions many people cite in favor of many potential basketball draftees. Most of those draftees don’t work out.”
I didn’t post the evidence to be compelling as a drug….. no one knows that yet.
I posted it to refute the poster that stated taking it was a bad idea and against all competent medical advice. Clearly taking Plaqueneil at low doses has virtually zero risk. From Trump’s perspective this is purely risk/reward. Clearly, it isn’t some tin foil hat idea. As you mentioned there is in vitro evidence of its efficacy. Just as clearly a lot of health professionals prescribe it for that purpose.
Trump is in a completely different position. He knows he is going to be out on the stump beating the bushes 18 hours a day in August, September and October just like 2020 to pull off another upset. In his calculus he can’t afford to be off the stump for 2 weeks with a mild infection.
Taking virtually zero risk for the hope of some reward is not a bad idea….. it is a necessary idea.
https://twitter.com/SDinwiddie_25/status/1263094650312617984
More Mitchell Robinson clips. Look how he rises up over that 6 footer….
The whole thread is pretty funny. Someone posts a clip of Mitch stuffing a Dinwiddie layup attempt.
Hubert, you are absolutely right. We don’t know a lot about this drug and its relation to COVID.
Here is a new idea. Let’s not use the POTUS as a test subject for a drug undergoing clinical trials.
It really isn’t. Do you have any idea how many approvals the FDA has had to repeal? They once approved Nitrogen Trichloride in flour. That’s bleach in the flour that Americans used to eat. Isn’t recommended Americans ingest bleach a big ticket item for you?
Here’s something that’s not translated by an explanatory journalist, so you might have trouble understanding it:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2625319
^ it’s a study from the Journal of American Medical Associates showing that 32% of the novel therapeutics approved by the FDA from 2001-2010 had safety issues discovered after getting approval. 3 had to be withdrawn, and an additional 120 needed to have warnings added to the boxes after the FDA proclaimed it safe for usage.
You’re not the dumbest guy here, NahNah, but you possess the largest gap between how smart you think you are and how smart you actually are. You’re like 15% as smart as you think you are.
“What happened to the “large body of evidence” from the last post? Sounds like it turned into a shrug emoticon.”
I explained this in the above post.
Trump taking Plaquenil is an individual decision that it may offer him some protection at a time where he can’t afford to be sidelined during the run up to the election. Anything keeping him off the stump is a death sentence to him. Anything that keep Biden off the stump is a Mitzvah for him.
For the 14th time my reply to the OP was not to vouch for the efficacy of Plaquenil, (ther is no conclusive data on that) but rather to refute the OP’s point that is was somehow a bad idea and against all competent medical judgement.
I don’t see how that is difficult to understand. He is doing something with virtually zero risk that MAY afford him some protection. That is his calculus from my POV and it makes perfect sense to me.
You disagree?????
Sounds reasonable. Here’s an idea back: maybe don’t invent something out of thin air and imagine that I believe it just so you can argue on the internet.
I live in a blissful world that recognizes I have no control over the POTUS, so I don’t pay attention to his daily bullshit. Y’all can live here, too. It’s nice.
I think Perrin seems like a fine enough guy, but i don’t really see what’s impressive about Mitchell agreeing to work out for a team that is telling him that they’d willing to trade up to draft him. It’d be weird if he said no, no? It wasn’t like he was some consensus top ten prospect. He knew he’d be going towards the back of the lottery, so turning down teams expressing an interest in trading up for him would be pretty foolish on his part.
Now, if Perrin was the guy who identified Mitchell as a trade-up target, then that’s a more impressive plaudit for Perrin, ya know?
KnickfaninNJ
May 20, 2020 at 11:19 am
I’m sorry Bob, but I don’t see how the fact that 22% of doctors are trying Chloroquine in any way contradicts the statement “ he is doing it against the recommendation of the CDC, FDA, AMA, and every other acronym for a scientific-regulatory body.”
KF,
I have enormous respect for people with a research background but you are just wrong about this. The 22% of doctors stuff is just to show it is commonly used “off label” and for no other reason
However…… only thing the above named medical organizations are against wrt Plaquenil is HIGH DOSE ADMINISTRATION FFS!!!
Here it is in black and white since you clearly are uninformed about this no matter how much research experience you have.:
Chloroquine/Hydroxychloroquine:
The Panel recommends against using high-dose chloroquine (600 mg twice daily for 10 days) for the treatment of COVID-19 (AI), because the high dose carries a higher risk of toxicities than the lower dose.
The FDA warning that cautioned against the use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 outside the setting of a hospital or clinical trial was added to this section.
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/whats-new/
And that is why I included the other link in my first post to show 100 mg doses were extremely well tolerated.
I don’t mean to be pissy with you personally but I’ve just wasted 2 hours of my life trying to show some very smart people they happen to be misinformed and it is a waste of my fucking time.
Cliffs notes: If Orange Man does something perfectly reasonable and within the alphabet soup guidelines it has to be bad. Where do I go to get the 2 hours of my life back…….
Believe the nih/cdc guidelines or not…. I could give a bleep less.
Why the fk is it anyone’s business what meds the president takes?
if it does happen again this fall, it won’t be an upset this time…
It seem that you consider 22% of doctor’s all competent advice, but somehow FDA advice does not constitute competent medical advice. That’s the only conclusion I can come to from your use of the word “all”. I don’t agree with you — the FDA clearly does constitute competent medical advice. Second, there is no drug anywhere, ever, that doesn’t have side effects. And taking this drug prophylactically obviously has risks given that the FDA wants it taken only in a hospital setting where heart function can be monitored. Or you could just read the list of side effects linked to above.
You can make the argument that Trump is taking the drug personally because of his personal risk reward judgement given that he wants to go on the road and campaign. That’s his personal decision. But his decision to publicize it and publicize it in the way that he did is part of his personal campaign against science and against making fact based decisions. People are getting sick and dying because of his past decisions and lack of action and this is him just continuing that trend.
Well put. When you have Trump undermining the FDA, it is not a good thing. If he wants to privately take the drugs, whatever, have at it, but when he very publically says that the FDA is misleading the public about the drug, then that’s a whole other enchilada.
You neglected to mention that the two that were withdrawn were out of 222 approvals total. That means between one and two percent of approvals turned out to be mistakes. That’s a good number, not a bad thing. Some side effects can’t be found with the amount of testing done before approval. You can’t do enough testing before release to catch low incidence side effects without never being able to release anything, so the FDA insists on monitoring drugs after approval too.
“You can make the argument that Trump is taking the drug personally because of his personal risk reward judgement given that he wants to go on the road and campaign. That’s his personal decision. But his decision to publicize it and publicize it in the way that he did is part of his personal campaign against science and against making fact based decisions. People are getting sick and dying because of his past decisions and lack of action and this is him just continuing that trend.”
No…. it is not “against science” “Science” only advised against taking HIGH DOSE Plaquenil. I just posted that data.
And please with the people are getting sick and dying because of his decisions. He was the first one to shut the door to China and most of you fellas and Joe Biden were calling him an ethnocentrist racist for doing the obvious.
If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at that miserable scumbag Xi Jinpeng for stopping all domestic flights in China but allowing international flights for weeks.
Don’t try to convince me that wasn’t intentional to cripple Western Economies once he saw China was getting fucked.
And blame the politically correct libs like Pelosi and DiBlasio who were telling folks to come to Chinatown and party after the contagion was clear to Ray Charles.
And blame Cuomo for FORCING Covid positive patient into nursing homes…. but kneel at the alter of “inclusion” but feel free to violate the 1st and 4th Amendments all day long.
And the PA Public Health Commissioner should be horsewhipped for forcing Covid patients back into nursing homes while taking her own mom to a hotel.
I do fault Trump for not being man enough to shut the back door from Europe because he didn’t want to listen to shit from our close NATO allies until it was too late. That IS a valid criticism.
Imagine Donald Trump be the guy you throw your back out for. Hahahahaha, so good.
Now with 15% more effort!
Let’s be super careful about the conclusions we draw.
Hubert’s take is basically that since dangerous drugs make it through the FDA system, then the whole system stinks. So Trump can do whatever he wants. ***Sprays water with apple cider vinegar in your face***
KnickfaninNJ’s more nuanced take, that the dangerous drugs make it through the FDA system and require continuous monitoring because no amount of testing is foolproof, shows just how dangerous putting chemicals in your body can be, and it should be done with extreme caution. So Trump putting unapproved chemicals in his body is reckless. ***Rubs belly and scratches behind the ears***
***I think Perrin seems like a fine enough guy, but i don’t really see what’s impressive about Mitchell agreeing to work out for a team that is telling him that they’d willing to trade up to draft him. It’d be weird if he said no, no?***
I think it may be hard to sell New York City kids on playing in Utah. The one piece of control that draftees have is to choose who they work out for, so Perrin may have had to have convinced players that Utah is more than just mountains, Mormons, and mule deer.
That said, if Perrin’s main skill is selling New Yorkers on Utah, his talents may be better utilized in Salt Lake City than in Manhattan.
“It seem that you consider 22% of doctor’s all competent advice, but somehow FDA advice does not constitute competent medical advice. ”
Just the opposite. I meant the CDC/NIH et al as competent individual practitioners as less competent . But you fellas misread CDC/NIH opinion…. they ONLY advise against HIGH dose Plaquenil which Trump isn’t taking.
Of course Trump isn’t even taking the fucking drug in the first place. He doesn’t eat Trump Steaks for dinner either. It’s a product he wants to market for whatever reason, to “own the libs” I guess while also getting to pretend that he was right about it in the first place. He has a knack for this science stuff, after all. His uncle something something.
“So Trump putting unapproved chemicals in his body is reckless.”
Nothing is reckless by definition if there is minimal risk and a possible benefit. I make that analysis every time i get into my car or an airplane ever day.
You love to see it, Bob.
His personal Navy doctor confirmed that he is, in fact, taking the drug.
Incorrect.
First off, there were 3 withdrawals, not 2.
Second, a complete withdrawal is not a mistake. It’s a monumental blunder of extreme consequence. It means a significant amount of people were killed because they took something that FDA said was safe to take. A withdrawal of approval is the FDA’s version of a plane crash. If 3 out of every 222 planes that took off crashed, you would not think airlines are strong authorities on safety, would you?
So they made three colossal blunders that killed lots of people. But that’s not the limit of their mistakes.
A mistake is If you say something is safe and requires no warning, and then 4 years later you need to recant that statement and add a warning. They made that mistake 61 times.
Another instance of a mistake is when you realize that the safety standards you communicated were inadequate and needed to be revised. They made that mistake 59 times.
So out of 222 approvals, there were 120 mistakes and three colossal blunders. I submit this as evidence that appeals to the FDA as authority are inadequate to reach the burden of proof.
Again, I don’t have a side in this Trump thing. All I’m saying is NahNah has presented no evidence to support his case while mocking others for not making evidence-based cases. That is what the kids call trolling.
And his personal Navy butcher confirmed that he eats Trump Steaks.
Super weird position.
Acetaminophen (aka Tylenol) is probably one of the most studied drugs in human history. Sure, it has negative side effects. And we don’t have perfect information. But we have a pretty solid understanding of how acetaminophen works. Lots of peer-reviewed double-blind studies, and then meta-studies on top of the original studies.
Hydroxychloroquine? Yea, not so much. We don’t have good information. So you should, um, not take it.
Hubert, arguing with you is like going up against Glass Joe from Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out.
Well, we do know that he eats lots of Fast Food, so even though you were being sarcastic, he is literally absurdum come alive.
The only scientific studies there are on Covid and Chloroquine are on high doses used to help sick patients. There is nothing on low doses as a prophylactic for Covid. When low doses are used as a prophylactic against malaria, there are side effects. It’s not science to widely prescribe a drug for a completely untested use. And don’t give us the 22% of doctors number again. That same number means that 78% of doctors choose not to use it, which is a lot more than 22%.
Your wish for Trump to be competent makes you notice his good decisions (blocking travel from China) and excuse some other ones (not also blocking travel from Europe) and completely ignore others decisions, like ignoring the many pandemic warnings from the CIA and his personally appointed staff, refusing to use the war powers act to make needed medical supplies, encouraging people to disobey stay at home rules, and, of course, suggesting injecting bleach as a preventative measure. I am hoping this crisis would reach him to be a better president because we need a better president, but that isn’t happening.
“You love to see it, Bob.”
I do love the opinions of objective summarily fired former employees…. especially those who have never been told to fuck off before.
I especially enjoy watching you quote oil executive fat cats as the be all and end all on the truth. You ever believe one before? Is the CEO of Haliburton next? Or maybe the Creepy Porn Lawyer?
FWIW….. he may be telling the truth. I care about the results not the process so much. Jimmy Carter was into every detail and a very smart guy who got just about everything wrong.
Yeah, this. I pretty much discount anything he says. He’s a pathological liar and braggart.
FWIW, I got no problem with him taking whatever experimental drug he wants, inject Windex with Jowles, whatever. If he gets real sick, well tickle me pink! That might be evidence for the existence of karma.
🙂
Are you asking why the health of the most powerful person in the world is our business?
President’s have disclosed their health conditions for generations.
They also typically exposed their financial holdings, so we could ferret out conflicts.
The POTUS is not a private citizen. He holds extraordinary powers and thus is subject to extraordinary scrutiny.
Is this a serious question or a troll?
Please cite evidence that lots of people died because of the drugs involved in the three withdrawals. I didn’t see that in the link. And adding side effects notifications to already approved drugs does not seem to me to be indicative of a total mistake. It just gives doctors more information to prescribe with. I don’t think the FDA is perfect, but I think their correction rates are a fair compromise between the political pressure to approve things quickly in order to help people and the need to prevent really bad drugs from getting out in the market.
You might as well be, since you’re not actually arguing against me.
Everyone reading this thread except you knows that I didn’t say it’s a good idea to take Hydroxychloroquine.
It’s weird, though, when all of these fired “employees” seem to say the same thing about Trump, mostly that he’s functionally illiterate and has more actionable feelings than thoughts. And then he comes right out and says shit like this:
“I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me.”
“I know more about courts than any human being on Earth.”
“I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth.”
“I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world.”
“I understand money better than anybody.”
“I think I know about [the economy] better than [the Federal Reserve].”
“Technology — nobody knows more about technology than me.”
“I know more about drones than anybody. I know about every form of safety that you can have.”
“[N]obody knows more about construction than I do.”
You know who says shit like this? People who don’t know a fucking thing.
You know what I trust Tillerson on? Organizational management and process. You don’t just accidentally land as CEO of one of the most powerful private organizations on earth. And before you say, “Well, Trump got elected, so he must have done something right,” let’s not confuse appealing to an uninformed, if not illiterate electorate with appealing to powerful shareholders and boards of directors to reach the head office of one’s organization.
I’ll say it again: easy mark, just with a bit of a larger vocabulary than the average flyover-state Trump voter. I cannot fathom the amount of self-delusion it…
Honestly, I don’t think anybody on this board knows what the hell you are talking about.
My central thesis that kicked this all off: The POTUS should not take HCQ because it goes against authority.
And of course, as always, I baited you to argue against me, because I knew you couldn’t resist “bucking” authority. You, of course, as always, took the bait.
What is your central thesis then? Why have you spent 2,000 words arguing against my central thesis?
Trump could show how in touch he is with science by announcing he’s taking Pepcid.
“By the way,” Trump told reporters, “you know when you say that we lead in cases, that’s because we have more testing than anybody else.”
“So when we have a lot of cases,” he continued, “I don’t look at that as a bad thing, I look at that as, in a certain respect, as being a good thing because it means our testing is much better.”
Q: “Can you explain, sir, though, you — what is the evidence that [hydroxychloroquine] has a *preventative* effect?”
TRUMP: “Here we go. Are you ready? Here’s my evidence. I get a lot of positive calls about it.”
I don’t know which three were in the study but I can give you a few off the top of my head….
Before I do, a friendly reminder that the FDA loosened their guidelines on OxyContin in 2001 to allow it to be used long term, as needed, and for moderate pain. They did this without evidence that it was safe to do so. And that one doesn’t even make the list because it wasn’t withdrawn! That’s just one of the 61 warnings added.
Anyway, here’s some ones I remember being withdrawn because they killed people. I traded these stocks, so trust me, I remember this shit:
Raplon is an old one from circa Y2K. It was an anesthetic that put people to sleep permanently.
Belviq was withdrawn a few weeks ago because it causes cancer. Minor side effect. Nothing to see there.
Two famous ones from Pfizer: Mylotarg and Bextra. The former is back on the market in a revised form. I forget what it did but it killed some of the people who were taking it the first time. Bextra was causing strokes.
Trayslol (made by Bayer) killed people by inducing anaphylaxis upon first ingestion. Oops.
Novartis had one that causes heart attacks, too… something with a Z… not Z-man, although I’m sure he’s induced a few 😉
The more I think about it, I don’t know the FDA is actually a better appeal to authority than Knicks management.
My central thesis is two fold:
1. that you can’t comprehend what you read
2. you criticize people for not backing up their arguments with evidence even though that is exactly what you do.
he’s a morbidly obese self-proclaimed demigod…when it was just a tv show i found it interesting…now that he’s significantly affecting the life of the country – it’s frightening…
i will say though – i do agree with his handling of fauci and the push to open up the country…as much as i’d loved to continue staying at home and driving on freeways that aren’t always packed – this virus is having a huge negative impact on a large segment of society that aren’t that well positioned economically…
plus – i really really wanna get a haircut…
I don’t know which three were in the study but I can give you a few off the top of my head….
Before I do, a friendly reminder that the FDA loosened their guidelines on OxyContin in 2001 to allow it to be used long term, as needed, and for moderate pain. They did this without evidence that it was safe to do so. And that one doesn’t even make the list because it wasn’t withdrawn! That’s just one of the 61 warnings added that you don’t think are a total mistake.
Anyway, here’s some ones I remember being withdrawn because they killed people. I traded these stocks, so trust me, I remember this shit:
Raplon is an old one from circa Y2K. It was an anesthetic that put people to sleep permanently.
Belviq was withdrawn a few weeks ago because it causes cancer. Minor side effect. Nothing to see there.
Two famous ones from Pfizer: Mylotarg and Bextra. The former is back on the market in a revised form. I forget what it did but it killed some of the people who were taking it the first time. Bextra was causing strokes.
Trayslol (made by Bayer) killed people by inducing anaphylaxis upon first ingestion. Oops.
Novartis had one that causes heart attacks, too… something with a Z… not Z-man, although I’m sure he’s induced a few 😉
The more I think about it, I don’t know the FDA is actually a better appeal to authority than Knicks management.
Talk about a bad appeal to authority! I had a vested economic interest in the outcome of these stocks, so trust me.
All of your arguments are basically, the FDA allows too many dangerous drugs through its screen. That would be a great fact pattern if you were arguing to not take HQC.
I agree about the OxyContin one. That was and is bad. I haven’t heard about the other ones, but it sounds like they were older than the three cited in the period covered by the article you linked.
The only thing missing from this site is a frequent contributor who does nothing but defend James Dolan as both an owner and a musician.
When you have a tragedy as disastrous as the OxyContin epidemic, typically multiple institutions have failed. I have no doubt that plenty of shade can be thrown at the FDA, along with other government and health organizations. How any of this relates to HCQ and the current debate, well, it doesn’t really.
The same analysis for COVID. Multiple state leaders (including liberals in NY and NJ) were slow to get up to speed. Fair criticism. To lob them into the same basket as our Dear Leader, well, nope.
My take is what I say. Not what you say I say.
It seems to me, based on the link you provided, that the FDA has studied this drug for a long time and it has some known risks. It approves prescription of the drug when the known benefits outweigh those risks. Right now it’s saying it hasn’t had enough time to study the benefits to see if it merits approval.
So that’s one authority. And it makes perfect sense to me.
On the other hand, you have physicians. They’re an authority, too. And long before Trump came along and talked about this drug, they were prescribing it and seeing positive results. This evidence is noteworthy but not conclusive because it’s limited and anecdotal. There were no control groups. It’s unscientific. Of course, we don’t always have time to wait for studies to be finished, and we often have to rely on the expert in the field (the doctor) to make a judgment.
You have an eye test-level opinion that the authority of the FDA is more significant than the authority of an attending physician. You’ve offered no evidence to back this up. It’s just your opinion. And there is, in fact, a long history of attending physicians and even pharmacists being better authorities on specific situations than the FDA, but you dismiss this evidence because…. it wasn’t in the article you read.
I haven’t expressed my opinion at all. I’m just framing yours as the eye-test bullshit that it is. You’re strat and the FDA is your Phil. You’re a hack. That’s all there is to it.
God…how i miss Wayne Ellington’s game
Then spend some time on google and fact check my recollection.
I found the three in the article under the tab “results”:
1. Valdecoxib – this is the chemical name for Bextra, one of the drugs I cited.
2. Tegaserod – this the chemical name for Zelmac, the Novartis drug with the Z that I mentioned.
3. Efalizumab – I never heard of this one. According to Wikipedia, 1 in 500 patients who took it developed progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy, which can be fatal and doesn’t sound like my idea of a good time.
Oxycontin is not in the study bc it was approved in the 90s. But it’s approval wasn’t the issue. It was originally approved for short term use for severe pain. The FDA’s sin, for which I would argue it has forever forfeited its status as an unassailable authority, was to recommend it for long term use to treat moderate pain and downplay the addictive side effect of doing that. It did this without any evidence or studies, at the behest of Purdue Pharma. That is a fact, look it up. There were no studies done to generate that recommendation. So please don’t tell me the F D fucking A is an infallible scientific institution whose authority can’t be questioned. You can’t make that argument and pretend you’re different than strat.
damn…i didn’t bring no chocolate with me to work…i can feel those cocoa jitters coming at me now…
listen – my sincere apologies if i ever become overly invasive…i don’t know…i just strongly feel like we are all simply Flawed Dogs…instead of hiding that fact – i beleive we should revel in it…
hubie – other than house cleaning, work, modeling and sensual interludes with your neighbor – do you have other hobbies? do you get bored easily? why do you engage, when it’s clear the sole purpose of the exercise to to wind you up to dance like a circus bear for the entertainment of others…
if the answer is: entertainment – i totally, sort of, a little bit understand maybe why…yeah, okay…if it amuses you, that is more than enough…
nah nah nah nah – what kind of law do you focus on?
Literally, no one said this. Of course, the FDA can be questioned. That you think Trump’s attending physician is the right person to question their authority, is, um, a big nope.
Whoever bet we would discuss the FDA all day, please collect your large winnings….
Wait, so you can’t even comprehend the words you write?
And I didn’t say anything about Trump’s physician. This was a treatment being used for covid 19 long before Trump started talking about it.
It would seem to me that reasonable minds could disagree over whether, in the absence of conclusive data, the FDA or an attending physician is the superior authority.
Another nothing burger.