Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Saturday, July 20, 2019

Knicks Morning News (2019.06.26)

  • [YahooSports] NBA rumors: Warriors’ DeMarcus Cousins on Knicks’ radar in free agency
    (Wednesday, June 26, 2019 1:33:45 AM)

    NBA rumors: Warriors’ DeMarcus Cousins on Knicks’ radar in free agency originally appeared on nbcsportsbayarea.com Boogie to the Big Apple? After one season with the Golden State Warriors, All-Star center DeMarcus Cousins could find a new home with the New York Knicks. The Undefeated’s Marc J. Spears reported Tuesday that Cousins is on the Knicks’ radar in free agency.

  • [Hoops Rumors] Knicks Notes: Stars, Harris, Randle
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 8:57:46 PM)

    The Knicks are heading into the offseason the ability to carve out cap space for two max contracts. Kevin Durant has long been rumored as a target, though he isn’t the only star they will shoot for. The team is hopeful about getting a meeting with Kawhi Leonard, sources tell Marc Spears of The Undefeated. New York […]

  • [NYTimes] Bucks’ Horst wins Executive of the Year, heads back to work
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 9:49:01 PM)

    Milwaukee Bucks general manager Jon Horst took a break from his busy schedule Monday night to collect the 2018-19 NBA Executive of the Year Award

  • [NYTimes] Timberwolves hire Pablo Prigioni as assistant coach
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:32:01 PM)

    Timberwolves hire Pablo Prigioni as assistant coach, after season on staff with Nets

  • [NYTimes] Raptors president ‘confident’ Leonard will return to champs
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 4:08:04 PM)

    Raptors president ‘confident’ he can keep keeping Leonard once free agency begins

  • [NYPost] Zion Williamson and RJ Barrett are already shattering records
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:56:02 PM)

    Zion Williamson and RJ Barrett have yet to step on an NBA court — but they’re already shattering records when it comes to moving merch. The dynamic Duke roommates — who got picked No. 1 and No. 3, respectively, in last week’s draft — sold more jerseys and shirts than any other draftees in history,…

  • [NYPost] Don Nelson’s idea to trade Patrick Ewing didn’t go over well
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 3:53:35 PM)

    It was a disjointed idea that wasn’t highly thought of. Former Knicks coach Don Nelson, known for his intense coaching style and short-lived Knicks tenure, told HBO’s “Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel” that his idea to trade Patrick Ewing to make room for Shaquille O’Neal is what cost him his job. “I said, ‘You need…

  • [NYPost] Knicks’ greatest Kevin Durant question draws intrigue all over
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 3:23:58 PM)

    Returning from an Achilles tendon rupture didn’t cost Wesley Matthews money. And it probably isn’t going to cost Kevin Durant any either. “If Wes Mathews can get a max after an Achilles injury, Durant will have no problem,’’ one NBA general manager told The Post. In 2015, Matthews signed a maxed-out four-year, $70 million package….

  • [NYPost] Mavericks going all-in with $158 million Kristaps Porzingis deal
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 12:53:33 PM)

    Kristaps Porzingis should cash in before his comeback begins. Coming up on 17 months since Porzingis most recently appeared in an NBA game, Mark Cuban and the Dallas Mavericks are planning to meet with their new big man when free agency opens on June 30, and offer him a max contract of $158 million over…

  • [NYPost] Knicks feel their black front office helps in free agency
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 12:16:21 PM)

    Knicks president Steve Mills indicated having a pioneering predominately black front office will help the team in the upcoming free agency. “The African American front office, that doesn’t get lost on guys,” Mills said in an article published Tuesday on The Undefeated, which deals with race issues. After getting the job when Phil Jackson got…

  • [NYPost] Kenny Wooten is latest addition to Knicks’ summer league team
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 7:06:38 AM)

    The Knicks are planning to sign an Oregon big man and it’s not Bol Bol. Oregon sophomore power forward Kenny Wooten Jr. has committed to signing to the Knicks’ summer-league team and likely will be given a chance to make the main roster in training camp, according to a source. Wooten tweeted out “New York…

  • [SNY Knicks] Could Carmelo Anthony, Vince Carter be among Knicks’ backup free agent options?
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 6:28:53 PM)

    The Knicks won’t shell out a long-term deal if they miss the top players on their free agent list, but you can be sure some veterans will be coming in this offseason to help the young assets.

  • [SNY Knicks] Ex-Knicks coach Don Nelson confirms he tried to trade Patrick Ewing for Shaq
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 7:56:24 PM)

    Don Nelson was unable to last a full season as head coach of the Knicks because he suggested trading Patrick Ewing.

  • [SNY Knicks] Knicks’ free agent list taking shape with Tobias Harris, Nikola Vucevic reportedly included
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 3:25:39 PM)

    Team president Steve Mills, GM Scott Perry, and the rest of the Knicks’ front office has been working hard to prepare for free agency that kicks off officially this Sunday at 6 p.m. It’s a summer that could bring immediate change to the franchise that been stuck in the mud for more than a decade.

  • [SNY Knicks] Latest updates from Knicks Summer League: Kenny Wooten Jr. latest to join team
    (Tuesday, June 25, 2019 12:39:44 PM)

    Knicks fans will get an early look at some of the team’s young talent during the Summer League schedule.

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    223 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2019.06.26)

    1. Name is Bron - James Bron

      NEW STRATEGY:

      Step 1: Use 35m cap to take bad 1 year contracts netting us 2 1st round picks.
      Step 2: Trade Knox and 4 1st round picks to Wiz for Beal.
      Step 3: Sign Vonleh and Kornet each at about 5m/yr.

      We’d have about 50m in free cap next summer when bad 1 year contracts expire. Possible roster at end of season: Beal (28m), RJ (8M), Mitch (1.7m), 2020 pick (6m), Vonleh (5m), Kornet (5m), Trier (3m), Dotson (2m), Kadeem (2m).

      Notes:
      – No matching required in Beal trade since we’d be taking him into our cap space.
      – Randle is a terrible defender and Vonleh nets out better player (RPM) even if salaries were equal. But at 1/3 to 1/4 of Randle’s money, Noah’s a no-brainer.
      – Throw in DSJ to Beal trade if required.

    2. Hubert

      After the injury, it just makes a lot more sense for Durant to join the Nets with Irving instead of the Knicks. I think Durant was 99% here before he was injured, but now that he’s going to miss a full season, the appeal of going to an already good team with Irving has got to be extremely compelling to him. The Nets can make the playoffs with just Irving and without Durant even on the team, ya know? While he has to know that it is a hard sell to get another max guy to come to the Knicks without him playing this season.

      Here’s the thing, though:

      This move is supposedly about his narrative. About him getting the love he hasn’t gotten and silencing the haters that he shouldn’t care about but seems obsessed with.

      If he lets Kyrie Alpha him????

      That’s a bad look for a guy who is obsessed with the optics.

      Remember how bad LeBron got it bc he went to Wade’s team? Mike K was selling “Beta Dog” t-shirts on this site w LeBron’s face on them. I bought one. It took LeBron two years and winning a title while clearly the best player to put that to rest.

      That narrative is going to be there. Everyone knows he wanted to go to the Knicks and everyone knows if he goes to the Nets it’s bc he followed Kyrie. (I mean, technically no one knows anything, but that’s the narrative and it won’t die.)

      Kyrie is going to be the alpha dog and KD will get shit on by everyone who is shitting on him now. Should that matter? No. But it seems to piss him off.

      And we will have no fan base to defend him bc the Nets don’t really have any fans. OKC fans don’t like him, Golden State fans respect him but love their own guys, and now he’ll be playing in a city where the entire basketball loving population will HATE HIM for spurning the Knicks. From the whole “being loved and appreciated” angle, it is literally the worst move he can make.

      If he’s just going to get shit on by everyone anyway why leave the warriors and give up the extra $50mm

    3. Hubert

      Step 2: Trade Knox and 4 1st round picks to Wiz for Beal.

      – Throw in DSJ to Beal trade if required

      Really?

    4. Frank

      I’m still feeling reasonably certain that if KD decides to leave GS, he’s going to sign with the Knicks, for better or for worse.

      Prob was mentioned in yesterday’s thread, but Jalen Rose said it perfectly — (paraphrasing) – you don’t leave the Golden State Warriors (dynasty in great SF market going into a new arena) to go sign up for the B team in the NY market. He’s not leaving for winning or for money (both would be greater in GS), he’s leaving for legacy. And the legacy you’d create in NY is immeasurably greater with the Knicks than with the Nets.

      It’s true that the Clips are slooooowly making their move into competition with the Lakers, and so that is sort of analogous to the Knicks and Nets, but the Nets were freaking LAST in the NBA in attendance last year. They did have a 22% increase in TV ratings, but that still amounted to the WORST TV ratings in the NBA. It just doesn’t make any sense for a dude who is leaving GS for legacy to go to a relative backwater team. Kyrie can do what Kyrie wants because he’s just a bizarre guy, but KD is in a totally different stratosphere in terms of the magnitude of player he is.

      Off topic, but I will never doubt Brian Cashman again. DJ Lemahieu is playing basically the equal of Manny Machado and costs like 1/3. And then he (probably predicted well in advance) was able to steal Encarnacion for just cash, and the total cost of Lemahieu + Encarnacion is about the same as Manny or Bryce Harper alone, except you don’t have to pay them for 10 years or even 4. Cash is just incredible.

    5. Frank

      by the way no thanks on trading Knox and 4 1sts for Beal.
      I like Beal a lot but he’s not really the difference maker that I would consider trading multiple 1st rounders for unless we are really ready to compete for a title. (and we’re not)

      To finish off the KD thought – I’d personally put it about 50/50 that he stays with GS or comes to the Knicks. The narrative in GS really is different now, and the fact he hurt himself trying to play through an injury really has changed the fan perspective on him I think. That said, I would not be surprised at all if there is a lot of anger at the Warriors re: the achilles/calf thing.

    6. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Really?

      Yes. Beal is arguably a 2nd tier(ish) player (2B tier) and he’s young. We’d have him from age 26-31. Knox and DSJ don’t rate to be even average players and the 4 1st round picks will prob not be high picks. Beal/Mitch/RJ and some nice role players should be enough to make NYK a potential destination for a top tier player. We’d have enough cap space to take such a player directly into cap (e.g., AD bolts Lakers next summer or Giannis bolts Bucks). If trade required, we’d have some nice role players and our 1st round picks.

      My proposed strategy also is something front office could sell to Knick fans since the team would be less sh!tty this season.

    7. Grocer

      Amare came up in the thread yesterday and I dreamed all night about bathtubs of wine. Thanks a lot.

    8. Nick C.

      A month or so ago with the roster we had, there was non stop talk that Durant and Kyrie were heading to the Knicks. Beal was in the nation;s capital, with former # 1 pick John Wall and near where Durant grew up and there was no real talk of him going to Washington. I’m not getting it other than this is the internet and we might as well just talk to make “conversation.”

    9. KnickfaninNJ

      If we don’t get something great with our free agent dollars, my and many of your preferred strategy is to roll the dollars over by signing one year contracts, or just not sign anyone. But it’s starting to sink in to me just how difficult that might be to do. For one thing, the cost of our young guys (except Robinson) will go up for the following year, thus cutting into cap space even if we sign no one. Players don’t like one year contracts either, and in this free agent market, where there are a lot of teams looking to spend, they probably don’t have to take them. They will particularly not like taking one year contracts with team options. Do we really want, for example, a high priced single year of Lance Stephenson?

      Looking at it this way, signing someone like Randle to a longer contract seems like a plausible alternative. Of course, the devil is in the details.

    10. Jack Bauer

      Keep the 4 first rounders. I like Beal but that’s just too much to sacrifice.
      “….and the 4 first rounders will probably not be high picks” – This thinking reminds me of the first rounder given away in the Bargs trade. Hard pass.

      After all the talk of KD and/or Kyrie to the Knicks it would be surreal if they signed with the Nets

    11. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Beal was in the nation;s capital, with former # 1 pick John Wall and near where Durant grew up and there was no real talk of him going to Washington.

      Uh, he went to the Warriors. He knew he was joining GSW and didn’t want to raise the hopes of hometown fans by meeting with the Wiz.

    12. DRed

      We just got rid of Kanter why do people want Randle? There are some differences, but they’re basically the same player

    13. Frank

      We just got rid of Kanter why do people want Randle? There are some differences, but they’re basically the same player

      I’m wary of Randle also, but they’re pretty different IMO.

      First – Randle is to some degree a playmaker in his own right and has averaged ~4 assists per 36 the last several years. There are just not many frontcourt players in the league who can both score and playmake the way Randle can. (he also is a high turnover guy though).

      Second – if his 3 point shooting from last year is for real, he can also play off-ball and out of the lane, which is something Kanter never could.

      Third – he gets to the line like a beast — FTR 0.47 and 0.447 the last two seasons. Out of players who played >1000 minutes last year, there were only 8 players with a USG>20 who had a FTR that high – Harden, Giannis, Embiid, Montrezl, Gallinari, Nurkic, Ben Simmons, and Randle. Kanter’s career FTR is only 0.3.

      That said, he pretty much has to play the 4 unless you have rim protection outside of him. He theoretically would fit well with Kornet I guess, but that isn’t a combo that can work in the playoffs for instance.

      If we could get him on a non-max deal I wouldn’t be upset.

    14. Name is Bron - James Bron

      I’m not convinced Randle’s bump in 3FG% is real. Might be, but might be noise. We have the same problem in projecting Vonleh’s 3FG%. Noah shot over 40% from 3 on 75 attempts at the start of the season. That’s prob not his real mark but it’s possible fatigue played a role in steep drop off. However, it could have been just regression to mean (or combination of fatigue and regression). It would be interesting to look at the the 3FG% of players who shot over 40% through about 75 attempts and the career average 3FG% of those players. For example, if result were no players lower than average of 35%, that would be a very positive sign.

    15. Grocer

      No thanks to Randle. Hell no to Beal. 4 1sts plus one or two rookies for two years before he gets maxed and stops being a value add? No fucking thank you. Maybe if we had healthy Durant and Kawhi a trade for Beal might make sense. And isn’t Beal about to get an extension, 3 years at ~33 per? Anyway, if this was a thing, it’s the damn wizards, Perry should get shitcanned if he does this deal, he should be able to fleece them.

      Let’s just have some patience, enjoy watching the kids play this year. This’ll be year three of the 3-5 year rebuild. The shortcut tore in two, it happens. Back to the original plan.

    16. Name is Bron - James Bron

      And isn’t Beal about to get an extension, 3 years at ~33 per?

      Not on any sites I looked at. He makes 28m in 20-21.

      Anyway, if this was a thing, it’s the damn wizards, Perry should get shitcanned if he does this deal, he should be able to fleece them.

      Maybe FO could get Beal for less but you have to understand why Wiz haven’t put him up for trade like Otto and entered a rebuild. It’s because nobody would go to the games or watch them on TV. He’s their star. Even Knick TV ratings plummeted last season. There’s no way Dolan/Knicks are gonna put a 20 win team on the court again and ask for patience. Result: Middling vets on short-term contracts and/or moronic signings like Randle. I’d rather have Beal and lots of cap space and all of our picks than those alternatives.

    17. Frank

      Another thing about Randle. It is true his defense isn’t great, but just on straight offensive production, here is the list of players who have EVER averaged (per 36) 25/8/3.5 and a TS >60:

      Kareem Abdul Jabbar
      Karl Malone
      Larry Bird
      James Harden
      Kevin Durant
      Giannis
      Lebron
      Barkley
      Towns
      Randle

      Towns, Kareem, Giannis, and Randle were the only ones to accomplish those milestones in the same season before age 27

      I mean, literally every name on there is going to the HoF (I am including Towns in that).

    18. Hubert

      Off topic, but I will never doubt Brian Cashman again. DJ Lemahieu is playing basically the equal of Manny Machado and costs like 1/3. And then he (probably predicted well in advance) was able to steal Encarnacion for just cash, and the total cost of Lemahieu + Encarnacion is about the same as Manny or Bryce Harper alone, except you don’t have to pay them for 10 years or even 4. Cash is just incredible.

      The LeMahieu move was outstanding, one of his best ever, but I fear he is building one of his patented lineups that hammer mediocre pitching but can get pitched to in the postseason.

      I get that EE is better value but the baseball system doesn’t have a cap and the Yanks have astronomical revenue so production is more important than value per unit of cost. Come October I’ll take Harper over EE all day. That could be the difference between winning a World Series or not.

      And choosing Happ over giving Corbin one more year was a terrible move. That and being cheap with Keuchel could potentially undo all the good of the LeMahieu signing. So yeah, I love Cashman, and the cheapness might be bc of the Steinbrenner brats, but I’m just not all in on his last 12 months.

      And his managerial candidate still seems like he’ll never figure out bullpen management 101.

    19. Name is Bron - James Bron

      It is true his defense isn’t great

      Here’s his DRPM rank:
      2018-19: 62 out 64
      2017-2018: 53 out of 59
      2016-2017: 48 out of 51

      These type of players get eaten alive in the playoffs. Stay away from these guys. That’s why we should trade Knox now.

    20. Hubert

      Yes. Beal is arguably a 2nd tier(ish) player (2B tier) and he’s young. We’d have him from age 26-31. Knox and DSJ don’t rate to be even average players and the 4 1st round picks will prob not be high picks. Beal/Mitch/RJ and some nice role players should be enough to make NYK a potential destination for a top tier player. We’d have enough cap space to take such a player directly into cap (e.g., AD bolts Lakers next summer or Giannis bolts Bucks). If trade required, we’d have some nice role players and our 1st round picks.

      I like Bradley Beal but I disagree with this reasoning. I *strongly* disagree with “the 4 picks won’t be high anyway.” Where have you been the last 20 years?

      And who do you think Beal is, anyway? I like him, but he’s a poor man’s Klay Thompson. He’s your 3rd best guy at best. You don’t give up a recent lottery pick and 4 firsts for a 3rd banana when you don’t have the first two.

      I can tell you’re an old poster using a new name, it’s hard to figure out who. I’m sure there is some old timer who used to say stuff like “they won’t be good picks anyway.”

    21. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      I’m not sure what would cause a bigger reaction among Knicks fans, Melo back to the Knicks or Melo winning a ring in LA.

    22. KnickfaninNJ

      Honestly, Randle looks pretty good to me. I think those of you who don’t want him should compare him to Porzingis. His efficiency is much better. He doesn’t defend as well, but he passes, which KP didn’t do at all. I think they are comparable, but with different strengths. If you get him for less than Max salary, that is a pretty good deal.

    23. djphan

      so frank highlighted the biggest difference between randle and kanter…. randle can pass…. and passing for a big man is actually a very good forward looking trait…..

      guys like randle generally aren’t great defenders…. someone like kg is the exception…. but pf’s were traditionally known to be great offensive players but couldn’t hold down the paint like a center could… malone and barkley were examples of this but there are plenty of others….

      the nba has changed….. so prior definitions don’t fit neatly but randle still scores very efficiently with very high volume and does all the other things you would look for in a traditional PF….. if you just want your pf to grab boards and sit out in the 3p land… those ryan anderson types actually do grow on trees….

      if you want someone better then you’re probably waiting a long time….

    24. ess-dog

      I think the hard part for the Knicks will be finding someone to be KD’s beta on a 2nd max contract that is actually worth that contract. I don’t think Kawhi wants to come here to play 2nd fiddle after leading the Raps to a chip. I think he might go to the Clips and run that team.

      The FO should push Kemba since he’s from NY, will be fine running the show during KD’s gap year, and will be fine having it ultimately be KD’s team. Plus, they are the same age and each can mentor Knox/DSJ for when they move on.

      Otherwise, I really think guys like Randle and Beal on long/big contracts are a mistake. Just stick to drafting good players and fill in the gaps with lesser known guys.

    25. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Yeah, someone mentioned Melo would be a good mentor for the young guys. wtfx10

      He’d probably turn Barrett into a diva too and then he’ll demand a trade.

    26. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Randle has several valuable attributes, but I don’t fully trust his 3p% from last year and I think this Knicks team needs to focus on defense instead of scoring. I wouldn’t mind giving him an inflated 1 year deal or a 2 year deal with an option to take a good look at him and see if he can improve. We have the time. But giving 4 years to a guy that may not fit well with Robinson and that may never defend well could be a problem down the line.

    27. KnickfaninNJ

      Strat, I kind of expected you would feel that way, because defense is a big factor in your player ratings. I like defense a lot too, but I am not convinced Randle’s will be horrible. On the Lakers at least, he was on such a horrible team defensively, it is hard to tell how good he could be on a team with a reasonably organized defense. Randle is better than Kanter already and could be much better if his three point shooting holds up. If we get him on a Kanter like contract, then we essentially replaced KP with Randle, but on a much lower salary than KP wanted, and got two first round picks along with leftover cap space.

      That said, I’m not at all sure we can get Randle for that price. His free market value may be higher than that.

    28. bobneptune

      For one thing, the cost of our young guys (except Robinson) will go up for the following year, thus cutting into cap space even if we sign no one.

      This is complete non-argument because DSJr, Frank and Knox are all on team options next year…. if they play well they can be moved at the deadline for a pick and if they continue to suck we SHOULD walk away from them….

      The have 8 M in guaranteed contracts next year (plus the new draft choices). Their only constraint is when MR is up for a new contract in 22

    29. JK47

      Yeah, the “doesn’t play defense” part of Randle’s game is not too enticing. You can survive a bad defender here and there but the Knicks are, as usual, stockpiling players who don’t defend. It’s an offensive era in the league and Randle would be the best scorer on the team by a mile, but if you’re in the bottom third of defensive teams every year you’re going to struggle to win games.

    30. KnickfaninNJ

      It’s true, but I am not sure there is a better use for our money. You could say the same thing about Kyrie, but we’d still like to get him.

    31. djphan

      you can survive with randle as your pf defensively….. you just need good defenders around him…. the grizzlies did this for years with randolph as their pf…. gasol.. and allen and conley were the lynchpins of course but zachey as we all know isn’t exactly a stopper…. you also have amare… we all know how bad he was… but if you pair him with marion… it’s not such a bad defensive squad….

      you’re relying on mitch rob developing into a defensive stalwart… which i think is very possible… and if he does that allows for some wiggle room elsewhere….

      if you want some defensive stopper at the four that’s also really good offensively… i mean are we really advocating to max out draymond green or something? is that the better option here? who would this person even be?

    32. Name is Bron - James Bron

      And who do you think Beal is, anyway? I like him, but he’s a poor man’s Klay Thompson. He’s your 3rd best guy at best. You don’t give up a recent lottery pick and 4 firsts for a 3rd banana when you don’t have the first two.

      I think you need a player like Beal to attract a top tier player. The hope would be that Mitch/Beal/RJ and a group of solid players could be enticing enough for AD or Giannis. Mitch is Gobert in the making. Check out the comps at that age if you don’t believe me. If RJ shows anything, that would be a nice troika for a top tier star to join. It’s the chicken-egg dilemma.

      Knox is maybe the worst defender in the entire league. He had the worst DRPM across all positions by a wide margin. I don’t think we should pick up his 3rd year option this October. There’s more hope re DSJ but we have to decide whether to pick up his 4th year option this October. I’d rather not have the cap hit of either Knox or DSJ. Better to trade both of them now.

      I get the horror about the draft picks but it’s difficult to get exercised about picks in the 15-30 range. One would be the OKC pick. The 2nd would be Hornets pick – they finished 9th last year and would rate to be better with Adams and a re-signed Kemba. The 3rd would be the protected Mavs pick. The 4th would be the unprotected Mavs pick. It would be reasonable to try to protect this pick 1-10.

    33. ptmilo

      not to be a dick but just saying you would take randle is like saying you’d accept a gift certificate to piercing pagoda if offered. to make it a meaningful statement you really have to say something like “i’d pay randle up to 4/$72 or 3/$58″ or whatever if you want to be saying anything at all.

    34. bobneptune

      There are so many great options to take on bad short contract for young players /picks that if we sign no one it should work out great.

    35. ptmilo

      I think you need a player like Beal to attract a top tier player.

      you are literally suggesting trading knox, dsj, $63 million of cap space and two first rounders for the right to pay bradley beal $28m for 1 year on an expiring deal. his 2019-20 value to the knicks would actually be negative since that team would be terrible. as one of more ardent knox/dsj pessimists here, i strongly suggest a rethink.

    36. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      If we get him on a Kanter like contract, then we essentially replaced KP with Randle, but on a much lower salary than KP wanted, and got two first round picks along with leftover cap space.

      I don’t dislike Randle. I actually like him. I wanted to pair him with KP. But he’s not going to come cheaply, especially if we want to give him fewer than 4 years.

      We have a few offensive minded players that need to develop (Knox, DSJ, Trier) and just drafted Barrett & Brazdeikis. We need more players like Vonleh to make up for all the non defenders. He’s also not a fit with Robinson unless you could guarantee me that his 3p% from last year wasn’t a fluke.

      He seems more like a player I’d be willing to take a look at for a year or two, but not one I’d want to commit 4 years to at a big price. If it turns out the Robinson/Randle pairing doesn’t work well because of spacing and because they both have to score inside, then we’d have an expensive 6th man PF on the bench for 4 years.

    37. Name is Bron - James Bron

      you are literally suggesting trading knox, dsj, $63 million of cap space and two first rounders for the right to pay bradley beal $28m for 1 year on an expiring deal. his 2019-20 value to the knicks would actually be negative since that team would be terrible. as one of more ardent knox/dsj pessimists here, i strongly suggest a rethink.

      The 2 sites I looked at showed Beal signed for the next 2 seasons. There was no player option noted on either of those sites. (Spotrac and Bball insiders). If he’s got a player option, then I wouldn’t do the deal.

      We take on Beal’s 28m but we are ridding ourselves of Knox and DSJ’s cap and future cap holds of any picks in bad player dump. We’d have the bad contracts on our books for 1 season no matter what we did (Beal or no Beal) if we take on 32m of bad contracts. How are you getting 63m in cap if we’re taking on expiring bad contracts no matter the scenario?

    38. KnickfaninNJ

      Ptmilo,

      I did specify price. I suggested a Kanter like contract for Randle as a reasonable deal. He was on a four year $70million contract before being waived by the Knicks.

    39. JK47

      you can survive with randle as your pf defensively….. you just need good defenders around him

      The “good defenders around him” part is the problem. We have RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, Alonzo Trier, Dennis Smith Jr…

    40. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      The “good defenders around him” part is the problem. We have RJ Barrett, Kevin Knox, Alonzo Trier, Dennis Smith Jr…

      Exactly.

      If you have a guy that is so good in other areas you are willing to sacrifice defense, that’s fine. But you need some “plus defenders” with him. It’s my view (and I have no data to back this up), that bad defense compounds itself.

      You can have a successful defensive team with Melo or Amare as your PF as long as you have some plus defenders on the court with them. But if you put both of them on the court together it’s like

      -1 + -1 = -3.

    41. djphan

      look i get that the team isn’t currently filled with the greatest defenders in the world…. but a lot of these guys won’t be on the team or they may develop into sufficient or even good defenders… i’m obviously not really counting knox…. there’s a good possibility that at least 2 out of those 4 guys won’t be on the team past next year…

      and if not… you can get what you need in the draft and/or FA… signing randle or dlo… isn’t really about turning this into a winning team next year… it’s really more about year 2020, 2021 and 2022…. this wouldn’t be a finished product by any means..

      the argument i’m making is that the cap space is best used to find out if the best young players in this FA class is a building block…. they might not be…. but you’re not getting those kind of guys next year or the year after for that matter…. so there’s very little opportunity cost in just trying it out….

      if there’s a better deal for decent draft picks i would explore that also but i kind of doubt any decent pick that isn’t heavily protected is out there…. and if it’s not it behooves us to see if guys who easily fit age wise and on our win curve can work…. and someone like randle fits that profile…

    42. GianaDani

      I don’t think there is a line of teams offering 1st round picks to get for expiring contacts of the books. Maybe for 2 year bad deals but not expiring. We should perhaps lower expectations a little and be more realistic with this strategy. This is why parking KD has a very small opportunity costs in 2019-20. Having RJ and Knox around him in the spring when he’s putting up threes in the gym gives them a good role model to look up to. Also, KD was a terrible defender early in his career and corrected that part of his game to

      We have to spend 90% of the cap ($109M), – so how do we get to at ~$98m without losing financial flexibility and stunting the growth and development of these kids?

    43. thenamestsam

      For what it’s worth Cleaning the Glass has Randle at 70% C and 30% PF last year, with his differential being positive for the C minutes and negative for the PF minutes. According to their stats his team has been better with him at C than PF every year of his career.

      That matches my eye-test which says that he’s more of an undersized C than a PF. He’s more effective offensively against Cs because he likes to use his quickness advantage to get right to the rim and draw fouls, and he’s more effective defensively against Cs (or at least the differential is less than you’d think) because even though he’s undersized, he’s really struggles when asked to guard on the perimeter (actually similiar to how Melo used to do better when asked to body up bigger guys and struggled to stay engaged and in position against smaller guys).

      Maybe the 3p shooting changes the equation for him, but we’re talking about a pretty small number of makes and attempts ultimately for a guy with no track record shooting the 3 before that. And even if the shooting is real and he’s a great offensive fit at PF, you’ve still got the defensive questions. Unless his market collapses it’s a pass for me.

    44. Name is Bron - James Bron

      I don’t think there is a line of teams offering 1st round picks to get for expiring contacts of the books. Maybe for 2 year bad deals but not expiring.

      This is true but I presented a specific deal yesterday featuring expiring contracts that I think has a greater than 50% chance of going through.

    45. KnickfaninNJ

      @47, that’s very interesting about Randle playing more center than power forward. Do you think it would work to have him defending centers and Robinson defending the power forward?

    46. DRed

      Yeah, Randle passes more but he turns it over more and rebounds a bit worse than Kanter. Like I said he’s not a carbon copy, but the end result is about the same

    47. Frank O.

      The Knicks should move heaven and Earth to get Leonard for the Garden.
      He would be second fiddle to no one in NY.
      He’s healthy. He’s 27. He is the leader you can build around and if you sign HIM, others will come.

      How this isn’t the talk of the board, is beyond me.
      I know others are out there, but the Knicks should go hard hard hard at him.

    48. d-mar

      @52 I think no one talks about it because no one can come up with one single reason why Kawhi would come to the Knicks.

      And of course he’s the best option, but it’s pretty clear it’s either the Clips or the Raptors.

    49. Frank

      The Knicks should move heaven and Earth to get Leonard for the Garden.
      He would be second fiddle to no one in NY.
      He’s healthy. He’s 27. He is the leader you can build around and if you sign HIM, others will come.

      How this isn’t the talk of the board, is beyond me.
      I know others are out there, but the Knicks should go hard hard hard at him.

      Sure I’d love to have him but he’s not coming.

    50. english_knick

      One thing I don’t get is the ‘we have to spend 90% of the cap’ thing. It’s not true. If you don’t, you pay the difference out to your existing roster at the end of the season. No biggie. You can also take a player or sign an unsigned FA on a big deal at the FA/trade deadline and only pay them the pro rated portion of their deal for the rest of the year, but have the full deal count vs the cap. Also easy enough.

      In terms of expirings for picks – there may still be some deals at the start of FA if team x gets the nod from a FA target. Crabbe (expiring) netted two 1rps for the hawks and I think snell is expiring in 2020 also?

    51. Owen

      Randle seems like the quintessential guy that you would love to have on a Montrezl Harrell type contract but who will end up grossly overpaid. Of course, Montrezl will probably be that guy next year too.

    52. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      I agree that Randle is actually an undersized C, which is partly why I said I don’t think he’s a good fit with Robinson.

      Beggars can’t be choosy. We have way more space than we are probably going to need. We should try to improve the team, but I don’t think we should be giving out any 4 years deals unless the player is a really good fit long term. We don’t know that to be the case with Randle and he won’t be cheap.

    53. Frank O.

      Continuing the Kawhi Leonard Mission Impossible, there is a better chance that KD goes to the Nets than to the Knicks now. Irving isn’t going to MSG either.
      If the Knicks have all this money and they fail to land a premium FA among the several available, can we finally drop this MSG is the Mecca of basketball selling point?
      It’s more of a leper colony.

    54. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      Hate to say it, but I just don’t see a clear path forward. I was completely down with the KP trade, more because of his health issues (which seem likely to continue) than his value as a player (which, like Strat says, is higher than the numbers say on D). Paying him a max would have been a huge risk.

      But we cleared space for an enormously superior (if older) player who now would represent similar risk. If we still signed him, would we get 80% KD? 60% KD? No one knows. Without signing him, though, we have all this space without anyone to bring in (Kawhi ain’t coming) except possibly crazy Kyrie, which doesn’t even seem likely. So without KD and Kyrie, what do you really have?

      Emotionally it’s really hard to accept, but with Mitch being the only bona fide A list player (maybe RJ gets there, maybe Smith improves, maybe not), we are in a bad spot. By the time we could build a good team organically through the draft and taking on contracts for picks, the good players we’d have would be in line to get paid. As much flexibility as we have, I just don’t think there’s much margin for error.

      Signing DAR to me would be an error. A max for a one-way player who doesn’t make his teammates better – that isn’t an asset, especially given the volatility of the stats that made him look good last year. Same for Randle – without the 3-pointers, he wouldn’t seem nearly so appealing. I mean, 3/$60 mil, sure, but that isn’t going to happen, not this off-season. Someone is giving him the max.

      If we had Jerry West I’d be more optimistic, but we don’t. Perry can make good deals, but when there are no good deals to be made…

    55. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, there’s nothing to discuss about Kawhi Leonard. If he wants to come you give him everything he could possibly want and get him because he’s worth it, but there’s no indication he’s even considering the Knicks anyway so…

    56. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      The best thing I can say is that with all our draft picks and cap space, we are in a good position to get lucky.

      But we would actually need luck to come our way. There are no moves we can make to get there without it. Which is why it’s imperative NOT to leap at band-aids like DAR and Randle. The openness to opportunity is actually our best asset right now. (And Mitch!)

    57. Grocer

      Beal has two years on his deal, reports yesterday said the Wiz want to give him a 3 year max extension. It’s a ridiculous trade either way.

      This is why parking KD has a very small opportunity costs in 2019-20.

      It has HUGE potential opportunity costs beyond that. Maybe the warriors will trade him into our space so we’ve got a year to evaluate.

      And we’ve got a stretch five who plays middling defense. Kornet is much much cheaper than Randle. So is Knox. Randle doesn’t live the needle much.

    58. KnickfaninNJ

      Depending on how you define Premium free agent, there might be as few as three of them on the market. Kawhi isn’t going to go anywhere that doesn’t have a shot at a championship. That leaves Kyrie and KD, which is hardly a referendum. I think the garden does still have two advantages in drawing free agents, but they aren’t big ones. One, our attendance is good and the crowd can be loud. That’s more fun than playing in front of half empty seats. Two, if you play reasonably well, you have more of a chance of being an All-Star because of the press you get and because of a larger home city to vote for you. For example, I’m not sure KP would have been an all star if he played for Memphis instead of N.Y.

    59. Grocer

      One I don’t get is the ‘we have to spend 90% of the cap’ thing. It’s not true. If you don’t, you pay the difference out to your existing roster at the end of the season. No biggie.

      And lots of space for one + one flyers on also rans. I don’t understand this desire to rush into iffy long term signings.

    60. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Beal has two years on his deal, reports yesterday said the Wiz want to give him a 3 year max extension.

      That’s even better if Wiz are willing to trade him after extension (not sure if there would be some restrictions on trading him after extension). Kinda think Beal wouldn’t mind being on Knicks after extension. We’d have him during his prime years (ages 26, 27, 28, 29, 30).

    61. DRed

      If we’re looking for another big we should try to sign cousins to a one year prove it deal instead of giving a multi-year deal to Randle

    62. KnickfaninNJ

      That would be ok with me, but given Cousins injury history, I think he’d much prefer a long term deal.

    63. Name is Bron - James Bron

      What makes anyone think Cousins and Mitch would be a nice fit? And no, you don’t want to take a guy who might end up the greatest shot blocker in NBA history and play him on the perimeter.

    64. Grocer

      That’s even better if Wiz are willing to trade him after extension (not sure if there would be some restrictions on trading him after extension).

      Better for who? Hard no to three years of max Beal. How does that make any sense for us?

    65. JK47

      Kornet is okay but Randle has like 60-70 points of TS% on him at higher volume and is a better rebounder.

    66. JK47

      Wait, we’re giving up four first round picks and signing Bradley Beal to an extension now?

      Is that you, Isiah?

    67. ClashFan

      I can’t say it enough. Trust the Process. Do not sign anyone to big, long-term contracts (unless Kawhi, of course). Keep all the picks. Rent space to get additional picks, in particular an additional first rounder for 2020. They may have to wait until near the trade deadline to do that now, though.

      This can be year two of a real rebuild (I’d say that trading KP, though they really did it to open up 2 max slots, is the start b/c of the 2 picks acquired).

      The Knicks were the worst team in the NBA and have 0 young “stars.” Mitch shows a lot of promise to be one of those, and we’ll see this year. Maybe RJB. Maybe one guy from the rest (Knox, Frank, DSJ…one needs to make a leap in the Fall). Maybe no one, but play them all as much as possible. Make 4 first round picks in the next two drafts. Hey, maybe all 4 will be lottery picks!

      Once you’ve got at least 2 young stars, then look at spending $ to bring someone very nice with them to go for it. But the Knicks are not there. Hopefully they will be in 2021.

    68. JK47

      Of course the Knicks should continue rebuilding, but this is still the Knicks we’re talking about. The overwhelming likelihood is that they do something stupid that puts us back on the 10th seed treadmill.

      Knicks gonna Knick.

    69. ClashFan

      @74
      Probably, but they haven’t done anything real stupid since Perry got here, so until then…

      But yeah, we have to hope that KD and Kawhi say, “no, thanks,” and Mills/Perry have the wisdom to punt on free agency.

      RE Randle, if they sign him to play the four, then they need to trade to trade Knox. Knox on the wing is about as bad a defender as there is. Poor Mitch if he has to try to compensate for Randle, Knox, RJB, and DSJ all on the court. Just give Knox a second year…see if he fills out a bit and cuts back on all the crazy drives.

    70. geo

      it’s funny, we all keep mentioning: “let’s find some good value deals for vet’s”, “it would be a good idea to sign a good young player to a value contract”

      then, once we start going through names and actually talking numbers – doesn’t seem like there are very many obvious choices regarding who is available for the “right” price…particularly for a team rebuilding like ourselves…

      which is crazy, because, i think i read somewhere this is one of the largest free agent classes ever…

      i hope perry and mills have better luck than us…

    71. DS

      I think no one talks about it because no one can come up with one single reason why Kawhi would come to the Knicks.

      And of course he’s the best option, but it’s pretty clear it’s either the Clips or the Raptors.

      I think we can forget about Kawhi.

      I can’t imagine why he would choose the Knicks over Toronto and the Clippers. I can’t imagine what he would want from the Knicks that he couldn’t get more of from one of the other two teams.

      The opportunity to restore the glory of the franchise or liking NYC better than L.A. are the only possibilities I can think of and neither seem to matter to Kawhi as L.A. is his home town and personal glory and “legacy” don’t seem to affect the guy.

    72. E

      Every Knick fan should be mortally petrified about how James Dolan is going to react if the team “loses” KD and Kyrie to the Nets.

      For whatever appeal it nominally has — and it has plenty — KD/Kyrie on the Nets, Knicks stick with patient rebuild isn’t an actually possible scenario.

    73. ClashFan

      @77
      There are reports that he’ll give the Knicks a meeting, I think. But yeah, seems EXTREMELY unlikely.

      I want the rebuild, but I think the Knicks plan right now is to sign KD, and if a second guy won’t come right now, look to try to trade for one during the season or trade/sign next offseason. Maybe they think they can land AD next year?

    74. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Sorry Team Reality, but if you think the FO is gonna plod along with 20-30 win teams for the next 3 or 4 years, you’re even more delusional than Team Optimism and their faith in Knox, the worst defender in the entire league. Yes I’d be happy to have a top 5 SG in his prime for the next 5 years. That will increase the odds of AD or Giannis or other free agents joining this team. The team would be more attractive in general, to watch as well. Mitch/Beal/RJ/Vonleh/Kornet/2020 pick (maybe Dot and Trier), about 45m free cap in summer 2020, and all of our picks is appealing to me especially when alternatives are spending 20m/yr on one of the worst defenders in the league (Randle).

      To those in angst over Knox and DSJ, what are you gonna do about their options this October? If you pick them up and they don’t improve much, you’ve got 10m cap hit the next year. Re DSJ: If you don’t pick up his option you risk losing him if he breaks out. Sorry to burden you with facts. And the picks in question rate to be 15-30 as I explained. You could put protection on the one pick which might be higher. We’d still have all of our picks.

    75. airkent

      is signing tobais harris just dumb, can he be the second best player on a good team?? The problem is there is nobody worth signing next year unless AD becomes available….. I guess we tank again, there is nothing else worth doing if we can’t get the big guns…. The reason I say tobais harris or to a similar extent DAR is because you need something attractive to trade for a legit superstar…. would Milwakuee want harris/dar if giannis comes available…

      Is there any upside to a mrob/harris/knox/barrett/dsj team or is that just a treadmill of mediocrity?? honestly I would like us to get to a clippers/nets level where free agents want to come here, because the mystic of the garden ain’t working lol…..

      I don’t see a lot of options except to tank but that doesn’t guarantee you anything either lol this isht is hard……..

    76. Frank O.

      HCJ:

      It is.
      Worst team in basketball after tanking for Zion.
      Misses on Zion.
      Clears space for KD. KD blows his achilles and the Nets appear to be a better option and a better team to land.
      Hoped for World be Flat, but he’s not interested.
      Kawhi is the pick of the crop, but he’s a southern Californian and would rather be with the Clips, with Lebron, AD, et al, across town.

      And now people are thinking about Bradley Beale???

      And then there is E’s comment about what happens when Dolan realizes not one single premium FA wants anything to do with NY.

      Not sure desperation fully captures the mood. lol

    77. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      It’s close to impossible to build a competitive Knicks team next year because these guys don’t get stops. Mitchell Robinson is our best defender and he’s awesome, but after him we have Kornet (who plays the same position), Dotson, DNPtilikina, and I think Kadeem Allen? The rest of our team are one or zero way players, so as much as I like guys like Randle and Russell, adding them to our team wouldn’t be the best move long term. Maybe RJ Barrett develops into a two way player (he got a ton of steals in high school of my memory serves me correctly), but outside of Robinson it’s really nobody.

      And then we’re paying Durant a max contract for his early 30s post achilles? You just know he’s not going to play defense.

    78. johnno

      Speaking of desperation, I just saw a guy at the gym wearing a Knicks T-shirt with five names on it — Melo, Rose, KP, Noah and Lee. Talk about a depressing shirt to be seen wearing in public…

    79. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Yes I’d be happy to have a top 5 SG in his prime for the next 5 years. That will increase the odds of AD or Giannis or other free agents joining this team.

      Unless it leads to more losing, in which case you have a disgruntled pseudo-star whose $35M AAV contract will be oh-so-easy to move. All of this is contingent on Bradley Beal’s career .104 WS48 carrying the team to success. If it fails (which, haha, looks likely), you’ve got a big fucking logjam. Ask the current Wizards how that’s goink

    80. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Kornet should play stretch 4 next to Robinson. He should start with DSJ, Barrett and Knox.

    81. Bruno Almeida

      I mean, I don’t even think Beal is terrible or anything, but did you guys keep up with the Wizards for the last couple of years? Is there anything suggesting that a team built around Bradley Beal would be anything better in New York then it is in Washington? I’m really confused.

      There’s literally no one available in the 2020 free agency class, the best players are like Draymond Green and DeMar DeRozan. Getting Beal to setup attracting more stars in the next summer is pointless as there are no stars that are even going to be available until potentially 2021. That would mean two years of Bradley Beal heroically carrying us to the 10th seed in the east and we giving up the 9th overall pick in the lottery to Washington.

    82. E

      It’s just really hard to build a championship NBA team; essentially you need an elite superstar or you have no chance and even getting an elite superstar is often a matter of luck. Giannis at 15. Kawhi at 15. Steph at 7. Everyone thought Steph had a chance to be really good and kind of the same with Kawhi, but no one had them projected as ultra-franchise guys that could be the #1 guy on a championship team.

      Which means that as we sit here today, the Knicks’ best shot is to have RJ Barrett turn into that guy. He could. It’s still early, but spitballing it, I’d give it a 10-20% chance. That’s at least some reason to hope and pay attention.

      As to that kind of guy, it’s kind of an old-school measurement, but first and foremost — my criteria are still can the guy get a good shot off pretty much any time he wants and from there, can we see that he has a good enough shooting form that eventually those shots will start going in? Based on that, I actually give Kevin Knox a non-zero chance to be that kind of player some day. I’d put his chances at maybe 5-10%. In my book, that’s a pretty good pick at 9. Of course, he could continue to kind of inexplicably drift on that floater as he does pretty much every g/d time he shoots it, and continue to shoot mid-30s from three the rest of his career …. My hope is that the weird drifting on the floater is because he’s still young and that once he’s stronger and older he’ll have a little more lift and a little more toward-the-basket on it and that will make it a very potent weapon. It’s possible. Maybe not likely, but certainly possible. At least IMO he has the potential toolkit. Plus he could be terrific in transition once he fully develops.

      DSJ can get a good shot off pretty easily, but his form is so bad that I can’t really ever envision him having an EFG% good enough to justify the high usage numbers he’d need.

      It kind of looked for awhile there like we might have lucked into the guy at 4 with Porzingis, but I’m with the majority sentiment here that his body, stamina, and limitations — as well as attitude — means he’ll never get there either. Definitely happy the Knicks aren’t maxing him.

    83. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Unless it leads to more losing, in which case you have a disgruntled pseudo-star whose $35M AAV contract will be oh-so-easy to move. All of this is contingent on Bradley Beal’s career .104 WS48 carrying the team to success. If it fails (which, haha, looks likely), you’ve got a big fucking logjam. Ask the current Wizards how that’s goink

      How about his 2.8 bpm and .126 WS/48 in 1597 minutes of PLAYOFFS ball? Is that not appealing to you, that a guy steps up when it matters the most and the competition is tougher. And he’s a better player now. Also check out his RPMs over his career.

      He’s scheduled to make 27m in 2019-20, 28.5 in 2020-21. Not sure how you get 35m AAV even with the extension (he’s a 7-year guy).

      You want the team to improve? Jettison the guys (and their future cap holds) like Knox who don’t rate to succeed, keep the guys who have been average+ players, and don’t blow your cap on players like Randle. Mitch/Beal/Vonleh/Kornet/Kadeem were average+ players. That’s 5 young guys right there. RJ you expect to struggle his first year but what’s important is that there are some positive signs about his future. You might be able to pick up a couple of semi-decent players on 1 year deals using 8m in leftover cap plus the room exception. That’s how you move forward while keeping the ability to add a top tier guy. Right Strat?

    84. JK47

      This team is miles away from basic competence. There are holes at every position and there is very little impact young talent on the roster. We’re starting with a baseline of Mitch Robinson, RJ Barrett and a bunch of guys who look quite frankly like shitty prospects.

      Anybody with a shred of common sense would look at this roster and make the conclusion that the team needs to accumulate more young players and draft picks, and that it needs to forget about trying to win lots of games any time soon. It’s really fucking amazing to me that after all the years of pushing all of our chips in while holding shitty cards, people want to try it again. Trading assets for Bradley Beal and then maxing him when you have a 17-win core is a straight up Isiah Thomas move. “Those draft picks won’t even be good because the Bradley Beal Knicks will be super good” is peak Isiah Brain.

    85. djphan

      i think tobias is interesting but i think he misses the cutoff from an age perspective… he’s still only 26 but i think he’s been on enough teams and the nba long enough that he probably won’t be much better than he already is…. and if he is.. it’s probably coming in the next year or two which won’t have much value on our team…..

      i’ve always been a big fan of his… and he’s a perfect example of a guy who wasn’t all that efficient in his younger years but turned into a great shooter…. we should be aiming for guys that were like tobias a couple years ago…. but if you wanted a young combo forward that’s already pretty good…. there’s worse players to be signing than harris….

    86. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Giannis at 15. Kawhi at 15. Steph at 7. Everyone thought Steph had a chance to be really good and kind of the same with Kawhi, but no one had them projected as ultra-franchise guys that could be the #1 guy on a championship team.

      This is undeniably true about Kawhi and Steph. Giannis is more nebulous — I do think people thought he was a superstar in the making. I also think those same people have a poor track record on the upside-prospect contingent, so I take any “future superstar, current project” punditry with a heaping mound of salt.

      Let us not forget that the same people who picked Giannis at #15 picked Jimmer Fredette, Rashad Vaughn, Thon Maker and Jabari Parker. Maker might end up a decent pro, but the rest are busts. (Looked like Parker had a good run at WAS this year, but it’s hard to see him having a resurgence worthy of the #2 pick.)

      https://www.nbadraft.net/players/giannis-adetokoubo

    87. DRed

      Knox shot 38% on 2 point shots, which is really atrocious. I mean you could see him becoming a Peja Stojkavich type player on offense if you dare to dream, but he’s got a lot of work to do (and Peja was not as completely useless on defense as Knox). At this point I’d be pretty happy with a poor man’s Peja.

    88. DRed

      My dream scenario for this offseason right now is that the Knicks whiff and Dolan says fuck it I’m selling the Knicks.

    89. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      How about his 2.8 bpm and .126 WS/48 in 1597 minutes of PLAYOFFS ball? Is that not appealing to you, that a guy steps up when it matters the most and the competition is tougher. And he’s a better player now. Also check out his RPMs over his career.

      His BPM and WS48 have steadily declined each postseason he’s been in the league. Looks like small-sample theater to me.

      He’s scheduled to make 27m in 2019-20, 28.5 in 2020-21. Not sure how you get 35m AAV even with the extension (he’s a 7-year guy).

      The extension would be $111M over three years (rather than 4/$194M had he snuck onto an All-NBA team), so it would be about $34M AAV. Mea culpa!

      You want the team to improve? Jettison the guys (and their future cap holds) like Knox who don’t rate to succeed, keep the guys who have been average+ players, and don’t blow your cap on players like Randle. Mitch/Beal/Vonleh/Kornet/Kadeem were average+ players. That’s 5 young guys right there. RJ you expect to struggle his first year but what’s important is that there are some positive signs about his future. You might be able to pick up a couple of semi-decent players on 1 year deals using 8m in leftover cap plus the room exception. That’s how you move forward while keeping the ability to add a top tier guy. Right Strat?

      It would be silly to jettison players like Knox. This is exactly what the Knicks have done in the past — send someone home instead of pumping their stats with MP and sending them to some dumb team that sees upside glimmering all over. See: Frank Ntilikina. We don’t know if he has any trade value, but if it’s zero right now, there’s nothing to be lost by giving him big minutes to showcase him. Especially in a tank season, which 2019-20 almost certainly will be.

    90. ClashFan

      @88

      Kornet should play stretch 4 next to Robinson. He should start with DSJ, Barrett and Knox.

      I hope they can get Kornet back on a cheap deal of some kind. A 1+1 (team option) would be nice, or a longer WHG type thing. However, mostly as a backup 4/5. Him and/or Vonleh if they can be gotten cheaply.

      The only hope for Knox to maybe develop into a useful player is as a stretch four, so start him there, see if he can bulk up a bit and shoot lots of threes. He’s a bad defender anywhere, but on the wing he’s utterly hopeless.

    91. djphan

      quick poll…

      a)does anyone actually have any targets for this year’s FA crop and the next two? or
      b)do most believe that renting out cap space and accumulating picks is the better path? if so how high of a pick do you think you can get and from whom?

    92. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      The desperation in this thread is palpable

      It is, but that’s because, as I said above, there is no real path forward. JK isn’t wrong that the best path is to hold tight and accumulate assets, but due to the changes in the draft, those assets are much more variable than they used to be. Finishing with the worst record in the league and ending up with the third pick was actually BETTER than the numbers – we beat the odds! Except that the third pick is RJ, not Zion, and we’re effed – as we would be in most drafts in terms of finding transformational talents.

      My point is, signing expensive, problematic players like Randle and DAR is just stupid. As for trading for Beal, I was all for it with a win-now, KD/Kyrie-led team. Trading for him in a vacuum? Again, that’s brain-damaged. As someone said, if he’s a foundational talent, why has the Wiz sucked year after year?

      So, doing something – almost anything – is a mistake. The only path with real possibility of success is to do nothing and hope for luck. If someone does need to offload salary with a pick, we want to be able to take it. If a player like Kawhi becomes available for unforeseen reasons, we want to be in a position to get him. Just because we can’t right now – because of bad luck with KD, because Kawhi is an LA dude – doesn’t mean we close the freaking window to it being possible in the future.

      Talking yourself into stupid moves is an emotional response to crisis that is likely to result in further failure. DON’T DO IT! Things will still suck, but preserving optionality is better than any other path – even if it is far from positive in itself.

      “DNPtilikina”

      At least we’re getting some good nicknames out of all this….

    93. Name is Bron - James Bron

      It would be silly to jettison players like Knox. This is exactly what the Knicks have done in the past — send someone home instead of pumping their stats with MP and sending them to some dumb team that sees upside glimmering all over.

      Problem is you have to make a decision on Knox’s 3rd year option this October. If you pick up option and he’s still the worst or one of the worst defenders in the league, you’re gonna have to attach a sweetener to get rid of him or keep him in year 3 and his cap is wasted. He’s probably at his peak trade value right now. The same is true but to a lesser extent of DSJ. No way Knicks pick up Frank’s 4th year option this October because he’s likely to be a 3&D type player; even so they’d have some rights to re-sign him and his value would probably fall in that range.

      The extension would be $111M over three years (rather than 4/$194M had he snuck onto an All-NBA team), so it would be about $34M AAV. Mea culpa!

      I’m interested in the progression of salaries (the cap hit or hold) after the extension. So it would go 27m, 28.5m, Year 3 ?, ? Year 4 ?, Year 5 ?. I doubt we’re gonna have any free cap after Year 3 regardless of whether we have Beal or not.

    94. Frank

      interesting thing apparently said on Lowe Post as a hypothetical (via KFS):

      @WindhorstESPN mentioned on Lowe Post: if the Knicks strike out in FA, why wouldn’t the Rockets call them up to offer Capela + Gordon + 1st rd pick to help make space for Jimmy Butler

      That generally sounds fine to me
      Capela could be redirected if we wanted to keep Mitch instead. Gordon is an asset as an expiring that can actually play. 1st round pick. What would be wrong with this?

      (Would it be we sign Jimmy to whatever contract then trade him to Rockets?)

      I actually love this idea.

    95. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      I guess the counter-point I’m trying to make to JK and the hold tight crowd is, conversely, the path they advocate for – while clearly better and smarter than the “overpay mediocrity” path – is not good in itself. With the changes to the draft, there is no Process. It doesn’t exist as a strategy anymore – especially with this team and this owner. You would have to do it for too long for the FO to survive it.

    96. Bruno Almeida

      @103

      This makes zero sense. Why the hell would we have to attach a sweetener to get rid of Knox when there’s zero even decent free agents to pursue in 2020 and he will make like 4.5 million??? What the hell are you even talking about?

    97. KnickfaninNJ

      James Bron, the fact that we have to make decisions and maybe pick up options in the future is one reason it is not totally trivial to role over cap space. If there is one thing this discussion has brought home to me, it’s that Perry does not have an easy path forward despite having a lot of assets. At a minimum, we have to wait for the 30th before much happens, which is another fours days of spitballing for us.

    98. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      Problem is you have to make a decision on Knox’s 3rd year option this October. If you pick up option and he’s still the worst or one of the worst defenders in the league, you’re gonna have to attach a sweetener to get rid of him or keep him in year 3 and his cap is wasted. He’s probably at his peak trade value right now. The same is true but to a lesser extent of DSJ. No way Knicks pick up Frank’s 4th year option this October because he’s likely to be a 3&D type player; even so they’d have some rights to re-sign him and his value would probably fall in that range.

      1) He’s 19. Despite being one of the worst NBAers this year, and almost certainly the worst rookie, it would be preposterous to decline a rookie-scale option in year 3. The only way it would make sense is if you had three superstars colluding to come to Manhattan and needed to clear the space.

      2) Why would you need to trade him away in year 3 if he fails to improve? Why would you need to attach a sweetener? It’s perfectly fine to let small contracts expire. There’s literally no reason at all that the Knicks would need to attach assets to rid themselves of his paltry salary, barring the extremely unlikely scenario in #1.

      3) We don’t have any idea what Knox’s trade value is, but if its peak is happening right now, then necessarily he will have shown no improvement whatsoever in year 2. If you have some kind of insight as to how he will fail to show any improvement as a 20-year-old rookie, I’m all ears. You’re just making some positive claims with a surfeit of evidence.

      I’m saying all of this, and I think he is one of the worst Knicks rookies I’ve seen in my lifetime, and he has a relatively low chance of ever justifying his lottery selection. I just don’t see this as a high-risk proposition from the Knicks. We’re not talking about an extension. We’re talking about a cost-controlled asset who has three years left on his contract!

    99. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      That generally sounds fine to me
      Capela could be redirected if we wanted to keep Mitch instead. Gordon is an asset as an expiring that can actually play. 1st round pick. What would be wrong with this?

      (Would it be we sign Jimmy to whatever contract then trade him to Rockets?)

      I actually love this idea.

      Capela would have to be turned into an expiring contract for 2019-20 and return more assets with him. Gordon can either be waived (if he’s affecting the tank) or traded to a contender who needs “instant offense” (haha).

      There’s no reason to pick Capela over Mitch. None whatosever. Capela should be on a team like the Warriors or Lakers. He’s 25 and an exceptional role player on a good contract. He has no business on the roster of a team well below sea level.

      If there is one thing this discussion has brought home to me, it’s that Perry does not have an easy path forward despite having a lot of assets.

      The problem seems to be that Perry has not yet shown that he understands how to leverage his current assets (cap space, the #3 overall pick) into better or more assets. This team has no quality players under contract at PG, SG, SF and PF. It’s unfathomable that they have not gone all-in on UDFAs and 2nd rounders.

    100. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      I’m still unsure why Isaiah Thomas chose James Bron as his alias.

    101. bidiong

      The rest of our team are one or zero way players,

      This made me laugh in real life because it’s so sad but true.

      I guess the counter-point I’m trying to make to JK and the hold tight crowd is, conversely, the path they advocate for – while clearly better and smarter than the “overpay mediocrity” path – is not good in itself. With the changes to the draft, there is no Process. It doesn’t exist as a strategy anymore – especially with this team and this owner. You would have to do it for too long for the FO to survive it.

      The thing that is good about the new system is that it is likely every year that a few teams will jump up. That’s why getting unprotected firsts while renting out your cap space gets you something that could be special. Scooping up unprotected lottery 1st rounders, no matter where they are, is going to be a smart thing to do when the option presents itself.

    102. Name is Bron - James Bron

      This makes zero sense. Why the hell would we have to attach a sweetener to get rid of Knox when there’s zero even decent free agents to pursue in 2020 and he will make like 4.5 million??? What the hell are you even talking about?

      Read what I wrote. If you pick up his option this October, he’s on the books for 2020-21. His cap may or may not matter then. But there is an opportunity cost to having a 5m contract on the books you don’t want. The exact cost is unknown at this time. Let’s say Lakers implode (e.g., Bron injury) and AD wants to take a look at Knicks which apparently were his 2nd choice. Do you think having 5m tied up in lousy Knox is gonna help sway him to sign? Or 10m in Knox and DSJ? I imagine Knicks were his 2nd choice because he envisioned KD or Kyrie also being here. We’d have a better shot with Mitch/Beal/RJ than Mitch/RJ/Knox/DSJ/some late 1st round picks/17m extra cap (17m is Beal’s salary 27m – 10m of Knox/DSJ)

    103. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      The thing that is good about the new system is that it is likely every year that a few teams will jump up. That’s why getting unprotected firsts while renting out your cap space gets you something that could be special.

      I agree with this. But it takes luck – the kind of luck NO had in getting Zion, damn it! The more chances you have to get lucky, though, the better the odds.

      Which is why James Bron’s trade makes even less sense: if Dallas underperforms (say, because one of their key players, like, I dunno, Porzingis gets hurt), and they end up in the lottery, even with the worst odds they could still end up with a top pick!

    104. JK47

      The flattened lotto odds have no bearing on whether it’s a good idea to stockpile assets. There are good players available in the draft in the teens and twenties pretty much every year. It’s still worthwhile to acquire those picks.

      I mean, this year, in a thin draft, you could have gotten Sekou Doumboya at 15, Nickell Alexander-Walker at 17, Brandon Clarke at 21, Goga Bitadze at 18… those are all intriguing prospects.

      It sure seems like a better idea to keep stockpiling guys like that if you can acquire extra draft picks for renting out cap space than it does to give the money to Ricky Rubio and hope for some nebulous player development gain as a result.

      The more darts you have to throw at the dartboard, the better.

    105. djphan

      i think the process absolutely exists but that was a different era… not only the tanking odds changed but there’s a ton of teams with cap space now… so renting out cap space doesn’t actually net you much since the supply is much higher… back then it was a lot easier to grab premium picks for taking on multiple years of a few bad deals…. because the ONLY team doing it was the sixers and there were a ton of teams that backed themselves into salary cap hell….

      with so many teams with a ton of cap space and flattened lottery odds the dynamics change…. and so the ‘process’ should change also…. you shouldn’t be afraid to go from 17 to 30 wins or so if the talent that you’re getting could possibly gain you more residual wins later on since the lottery penalty you’re getting from those marginal wins don’t hurt you as much… with those dynamics changing part of your cap is essentially a freeroll…

    106. DRed

      I took a peek at Mavericks reddit and they’re gushing over KP workout videos. I remember that feeling.

    107. Grocer

      My dream scenario for this offseason right now is that the Knicks whiff and Dolan says fuck it I’m selling the Knicks.

      This kind of porn is NSFW, don’t do that to me.

      And yeah, Kornet should play the 4. He’s twenty some million cheaper than Randle for one. For two, everything JK47 said about the inadvisedness of this kind of move at this point in time.

    108. d-mar

      I took a peek at Mavericks reddit and they’re gushing over KP workout videos. I remember that feeling.

      They’ll be doing more gushing in November; January, not so much.

    109. english_knick

      Woj has Houston trying to ACQUIRE picks for Capella, Gordon and PJ so they can flip the lock to philly in a Butler S&T. Doing Hou a favour that large whilst giving up a pick would be a criminally stupid thing to do so I expect we’ll be seeing precisely that from the Knicks shortly…

    110. KnickfaninNJ

      This team has no quality players under contract at PG, SG, SF and PF. It’s unfathomable that they have not gone all-in on UDFAs and 2nd rounders.

      It’s not unfathomable, They want to see if they can get a worthwhile free agent first before they finish out their roster. If they don’t, then they could do just what you say. And they basically did that last year, so it’s not impossible they do it again. If they want to, they already have a dozen young guys or so to evaluate, Barrett, Iggy, Wilkes, Hinton and King from this year, Robinson, Trier, Knox and Allen from last year, not to mention Ntilikina, Smith, Kornet and Dotson.

      And Bron, I agree 100% with Jowles about Knox. Five million is very little money in the NBA today, and Knox is worth more than that, even as a really unproductive rookie.

    111. wetbandit

      You guys do realize that if KD doesn’t show up there’s not much out there that’s jumping to grab a piece of that 17 win 70M cap space right?
      Even if you do want those mentoring vets like Vince Carter, you still have a TON of space to eat. With the 400M in cap space out there, there may not even be a ‘bad contract and picks for your space’ deal out there that’s good enough, even if the front office was interested.
      If that ‘bad contract and picks for your space’ deal isn’t out there, I’d settle for (a) young upside players like Brogdon (who WILL get paid, and likely matched by a better team, probably the Bucks), (b) solid mentoring vets (like Vince Carter, Beverley (who will get paid, but likely not more than we can match- would be solid for a defensive presence and voice on the guard side), and Darren Collison (decent and hardworking PG)- all on 1+1 deals.

    112. KnickfaninNJ

      Porzingis is good. I think Dallas is going to like him. Even if he fades in the second half, he won’t have to carry the team and I suspect they will still like him.

    113. KnickfaninNJ

      What’s disgusting is that we had to trade KP, but it set back the development of a decent team by two years or so. Now we basically have to tank again.

    114. Grocer

      Let’s say Lakers implode (e.g., Bron injury) and AD wants to take a look at Knicks which apparently were his 2nd choice. Do you think having 5m tied up in lousy Knox is gonna help sway him to sign? Or 10m in Knox and DSJ?

      Depending on how free agency shakes out I imagin Perry will have us set up or close enough to set up for two maxes next summer as well, just in case AD and KD is a reasonable thing. If we have to attach a second or two to Knox or DSJ to make it work who the fuck cares? You’re talking about dropping four firsts for Beal, kneecapping our ability to add cost-controlled rookies and you’re worried about that?

    115. BigBlueAL

      Everyone keeps talking about how the Knicks need guys who play defense but what they really need are guys who can actually make shots. The Knicks were horrible defensively last year, defensive rating was 26th out of 30 teams. But guess what, their offensive rating was 30th!! For as bad as they were defensively they were even worse offensively. They were dead last in FG% and more importantly dead last in eFG%. Defensively their rankings were mostly in the low 20’s in most categories which still sucks but there is some hope there especially with Mitch anchoring the defense. This team more than anything needs guys who can make shots at a decent efficiency.

    116. bobneptune

      If the Knicks have all this money and they fail to land a premium FA among the several available, can we finally drop this MSG is the Mecca of basketball selling point?

      Any sane person dropped that around 1974….The hubris of New Yorkers and especially NY sports fans is virtually incalculable…..

    117. KnickfaninNJ

      I was thinking of the Kanter to Randle comparison. Kanter had good offensive stats, but they were helped by his missing close in shots, getting the rebound a putting it back in. Are Randle’s stats like that too?

    118. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Depending on how free agency shakes out I imagin Perry will have us set up or close enough to set up for two maxes next summer as well, just in case AD and KD is a reasonable thing. If we have to attach a second or two to Knox or DSJ to make it work who the fuck cares? You’re talking about dropping four firsts for Beal, kneecapping our ability to add cost-controlled rookies and you’re worried about that?

      Nothing will happen in free agency until KD/Kawhi/Kyrie decide. The NYK will know all this before they start renting out cap space and signing/trading players. If Kawhi and/or KD and/or Kyrie sign 1-and-1 contract(s), then yeah I think it would be better to keep cap open (no Rubio, no Beal, yes to 1 year rentals). In the more probable event that they all sign longer deals, it’s better to position the team to be able to land a single top tier guy like AD or Giannis and Beal would be better toward that end than Knox and DSJ.

    119. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Houston seems pretty anxious to dump contracts. If they are desperate enough for Butler and he comes into play, we might be able to help Morey out for the right price.

    120. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      Everyone keeps talking about how the Knicks need guys who play defense but what they really need are guys who can actually make shots. The Knicks were horrible defensively last year, defensive rating was 26th out of 30 teams. But guess what, their offensive rating was 30th!! For as bad as they were defensively they were even worse offensively.

      The difference is we have Knox, Trier, DSJr and drafted Barrett and Brazdeikis. Those are scorers we hope will become more efficient over time. For all we know Hezonja will also be back. The only defenders on the team are Frank and Robinson. Robinson has to develop beyond being just a shot blocker and Frank is half way out the door. The closest thing we have to a 2-way player now is Dotson, but he’s developing on offense and not a real stopper on defense. He’s just solid. That’s why I say we need to bring Vonleh back (unless we find someone better) and try to add other defenders. I’m not against adding an efficient scorer, it’s just a lower priority if we are serious about developing young players.

    121. The Glass Half Rebuilt

      I don’t care who is available, if their contract doesn’t run past 2020 and their current team is offering a 1RP to take him? Sign the Knicks up right now. We need to be building around RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson.

    122. BJ

      17 wins keeps coming up. Yes, 17 wins was an accurate measure of the team on the court last year. I don’t see why it’s so hard to understand that a win total that low is impossible without playing a lot of players that actively hurt your team (KNOX, Frank, Lance) and just cutting their minutes (or if you are still a believer having them improve even to replacement level) already gets you most of the way to 30 wins, before even factoring in a minutes increase/ improvement from Mitch and the actually decent players. I think many are underestimating the upside of bringing in quality players because the tank mentality has sunk in too deep, and the quality assets on this team are being written off. Sure, by bringing in good players you lose some upside in committing to fully testing whether Knox and Frank can make a jump, but it’s not like they never got a shot, we’ve seen who they are and odds are against them showing us anything different. If you can bring in players that you actually think will be productive, neither 17 wins based on giving purposely bad minute allocation nor busted picks losing playing time they don’t deserve should hold you back.

    123. Hubert

      Sorry Team Reality, but if you think the FO is gonna plod along with 20-30 win teams for the next 3 or 4 years, you’re even more delusional than Team Optimism and their faith in Knox, the worst defender in the entire league. Yes I’d be happy to have a top 5 SG in his prime for the next 5 years. That will increase the odds of AD or Giannis or other free agents joining this team. The team would be more attractive in general, to watch as well. Mitch/Beal/RJ/Vonleh/Kornet/2020 pick (maybe Dot and Trier), about 45m free cap in summer 2020, and all of our picks is appealing to me especially when alternatives are spending 20m/yr on one of the worst defenders in the league (Randle).

      To those in angst over Knox and DSJ, what are you gonna do about their options this October? If you pick them up and they don’t improve much, you’ve got 10m cap hit the next year. Re DSJ: If you don’t pick up his option you risk losing him if he breaks out. Sorry to burden you with facts. And the picks in question rate to be 15-30 as I explained. You could put protection on the one pick which might be higher. We’d still have all of our picks.

      I know this guy is someone in disguise. I don’t remember Project Knicks’ opinion on Kevin Knox but if it matches up with this, I say it’s 100% him.

      And anyway, you’re talking about declining the option on a lottery pick’s 21 year old season? Come on, man.

    124. Stratomatic "I'm tired of the Knicks paying lip service to DEFENSE. Get defenders & two-way players. Then play them!

      What’s disgusting is that we had to trade KP, but it set back the development of a decent team by two years or so. Now we basically have to tank again.

      That’s what I’ve been saying since the day the trade happened.

      Set aside all the debates about his value and injury risk. He was far and away our best two way player, furthest along in his development, and most likely to become a star.

      Losing a “prospective” star means you have to replace him with a star or prospective star. We are unlikely to get that out of DSJr (though he may be a solid player some day) or either of the Dallas draft picks. So we are depending on adding a star into the cap space to replace KP (we also would have had some other cap space to add to KP). If we don’t add a star player into that KP space, we have more or less traded KP for DSJr and two mediocre 1st round picks. Lee will be coming off at the end of this year and Hardaway’s contract will slowly become less of an issue. It’s not a killer because we do have extra assets, but the whole rebuild process is about adding stars and we may come out of this a couple of years behind where we should be on the path to trying to add them.

    125. JK47

      What’s disgusting is that we had to trade KP, but it set back the development of a decent team by two years or so. Now we basically have to tank again.

      Oh noes, we actually have to spend more than one year rebuilding. What a terrible development. Geez, we were gonna be right there contending for ringzz once Mr. November came back and did his Kareem Abdul-Jabbar impersonation for 15 games before turning into Tall Melo and getting stuffed by Marcus Smart. Oh the little tiny tears I am crying for what could have been.

      It takes a while to rebuild, more than one season, which is why NYK never does it, which is why this team has been on a treadmill of mediocrity for 20 years. Just hang in there! Give it a few seasons. Have some patience for once for the love of all things decent.

    126. Jack Bauer

      Rumor has it that Melo will land with the Lakers – LOLOLOLOL

      I’d take the Rockets assets off of their hands as long as at least 1 first round pick is attached – don’t make them ask twice. Capela and/or Tucker could be flipped for other picks/assets rather easily i would think

    127. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I think many are underestimating the upside of bringing in quality players because the tank mentality has sunk in too deep, and the quality assets on this team are being written off.

      Huh? Who?

    128. Mike Honcho

      If Brooklyn gets KD and Kyrie, does that technically make New York a Mecca of basketball again?

      I do like Bradley Beal, but only as a second banana to KD and even then only if we make the trade after the season is over so we can take on filler for picks and still get a good draft pick. 4 picks + Knox is fucking insane – that compares well to what the Pellies got for AD, and we’re talking about Bradley Beal. Knox + filler + 1 of the Dallas picks is more appropriate of an offer.

    129. Bruno Almeida

      Guess what, if we kept KP and gave him a max and he sucked, we wouldn’t be rebuilding for 2 more years, we would be rebuilding until 2024. Would you guys be happier with that?

      This is really what I don’t get. There’s at least 4 or 5 teams that are in a overwhelmingly better position than we are, even if we did get 2 max free agents or whatever combination of next gen Courtney Lee’s you guys love so much. What do you think is going to happen when the New York Courtney Lees don’t win a title in their four year contracts? We’re back to rebuilding.

      It took the Raptors 8 seasons after Bosh left to win a title, and they made an incredible amount of really good decisions along the way. Do you trust the Dolan / Mills / Perry trifecta to stay patient and nail move after move for however many years it takes to pull off this kind of rebuild? If you do, I have very, very bad news for you. We won 30 games or so a couple of times already with veterans on the roster and it literally led to nowhere, and you guys want to run that strategy back because this time it will certainly work.

    130. KnickfaninNJ

      JK47, of course it takes more than a year to rebuild Like KP at a max salary or not, he’s still a quality player. Having one quality player would make our rebuild faster. Losing him makes it slower. Why is that so complicated to understand.

    131. Mike Honcho

      The fact that we have to take into account our front office’s stupidity and impatience for what plans are actually viable = classic Dolan’s razor.

    132. Bruno Almeida

      Being a respectful 33 win team means literally nothing in the context of the NBA. The damn Pistons, one of the most storied franchises of the current NBA have been on this path and the best players they managed to get were Reggie freaking Jackson and Blake Griffin. Meanwhile the Lakers have the literal worst record in the league in the last 4 or 5 years and have landed LeBron James and Anthony Davis in consecutive years. Winning 30 games is completely pointless.

    133. thenoblefacehumper

      Echoing ptmilo–saying you would sign Julius Randle is a meaningless statement. Of course there’s a price at which almost any free agent would make some sense. It comes down to the contract, and for me the contract would need to check two boxes that are very, very unlikely to coexist:

      1) Low AAV–Randle is talented but ultimately has a skill set that comes cheap on the open market. Anything above $10M has a good chance of turning into an albatross.

      2) Long term–this might sound counter intuitive but if we’re going to sign Randle there’s no point in only controlling him for the years we’re going to suck. A one year deal would be completely pointless, and two wouldn’t be that much better. So I’d aim for 3 or 4.

      So I’d sign Randle in the event that his market completely collapses and he takes 3/$24M or something. That’s a contract that’s likely tradable at any time, to paraphrase something often hilariously repeated about Courtney Lee.

      Again, I view this scenario as highly unlikely and will probably want no part of whatever contract he does end up signing.

    134. JK47

      JK47, of course it takes more than a year to rebuild Like KP at a max salary or not, he’s still a quality player. Having one quality player would make our rebuild faster. Losing him makes it slower. Why is that so complicated to understand.

      Yeah, well if you’re paying a max contract to a guy who can barely crack a .100 WS48, is a huge injury risk, and runs out of gas in mid-December every year, that’s not really helping your rebuild. That is miring you in mediocrity and it comes with a huge opportunity cost.

      If you’re paying $30M a year for a guy who is giving you less than $30M in production, he is dragging you below .500. You win in this league by having players who give you surplus value. Why is THAT so complicated to understand?

    135. thenoblefacehumper

      What’s disgusting is that we had to trade KP, but it set back the development of a decent team by two years or so. Now we basically have to tank again.

      How much would signing him to a 5/$158M deal set back the development of a decent team? I would say around five years. Also…what decent team was developing when KP was here?

      He was far and away our best two way player, furthest along in his development, and most likely to become a star.

      Nah.

    136. Name is Bron - James Bron

      I do like Bradley Beal, but only as a second banana to KD and even then only if we make the trade after the season is over so we can take on filler for picks and still get a good draft pick. 4 picks + Knox is fucking insane – that compares well to what the Pellies got for AD, and we’re talking about Bradley Beal. Knox + filler + 1 of the Dallas picks is more appropriate of an offer.

      Uh…… huh? Knox ranked 514th out of 514 players on RPM if you’re interested.
      Lonzo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Knox
      Ingram>>>>>>>>>>>>>Knox
      Hart>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Knox
      The 2 Laker picks and the swap rate to be better (Bron will be like 39) than our picks in question.

      So what deal, if any, would you do for Beal? Not Mike Honcho since he gave his trade but others. Presume KD/Kyrie/Kawhi all signed long-term deals with other teams and Kemba re-signed.

      How about Knox/DSJ/OKC pick/Mavs protected pick? I don’t think Wiz would do it, but would you? Gotta be a no-brainer, right?

    137. Grocer

      Bron, are you secretly Beal’s agent? Cause this:

      position the team to be able to land a single top tier guy like AD or Giannis and Beal would be better toward that end

      is remarkably silly. Four 1st rounders to turn into a poor man’s Wizards in order to entice Giannis is ridiculous.

    138. thenoblefacehumper

      JK47, of course it takes more than a year to rebuild Like KP at a max salary or not, he’s still a quality player. Having one quality player would make our rebuild faster. Losing him makes it slower. Why is that so complicated to understand.

      So are we just kinda ignoring the whole 5/$158M thing? The way people talk about Porzingis you would think we traded him with 3 years left on his rookie deal.

    139. thenoblefacehumper

      The Beal/declining Knox’s option stuff is too ridiculous for me to respond to it sounds like the kind of stuff Reub would say when he weighed in on basketball every once in a while

    140. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Some clarification on Knox RPM ranking in last post:
      – He ranked 483rd out of 514 on ORPM
      – He ranked 514 out of 514 on DRPM
      – He ranked 514 out of 514 on RPM ( ORPM and DRPM combined)

      @noble I don’t want to decline his option, I want to trade him now. That’s a copout you not wanting to offer a trade. Yeah it’s simple to just sit there and take shots but you should take some of your own advice to Strat and not be afraid to be specific.

    141. Mike Honcho

      Knox sucks, objectively. However, his perception around the league is as a talented youngster.

      Also, to clarify for possible troll James Bron, 4 picks + Knox is insane for Beal relative to the AD trade because AD is vastly better than Beal and thus should demand a more impressive haul of treasure. Lonzo, Ingram and Hart are all right but I doubt any of them become more than average starters/role players, while Knox still has that rosy glow of rookiedom to disguise his shittiness. The three picks are a high price, but for AD that makes a certain sort of sense for a team is a true contender (ie not the Lakers). I think the Pellies fleeced the Lakers, and I think trading 4 picks (which, if you’ll do some math with me, is one more than 3) for Bradley Beal would be fleecing ourselves a la Billy King.

      I think my offer was fair enough, but I could be convinced to throw in a second rounder or two or a piece like DSJ.

      Trading for Beal only makes sense if we have KD and can’t get Irving or Kawhi, and even then only after playing out the season to nab a high draft pick. It may be a better option to just forgo KD and double down on the rebuild, in which case Beal is pointless.

    142. BJ

      @THCJ Mitch is a crazy good asset and if he holds up for more playing time even with conservative improvement I think him alone without the negative players gets you to 33ish wins. 35 if everything goes perfect. Dot and probably Trier project to be above replacement. Vonleh Kornet and Allen on cheap deals would be value and any improvement would up the win total. DSJ probably projects to replacement or higher, pencil him in for at least backup minutes. Everyone else was net negative so you have the cap, exceptions and vet minimums to get efficient, positive players; I think if you do it right and Mitch and whatever big production guys you bring in stay healthy, that gets you to the playoffs in the East. It doesn’t even require getting rid of the low likelihood to improve lottery picks (yes they’re young but all evidence points to bust), it just means you can’t play them if they’re hurting the team in games unless it’s garbage time. If you think that plan is likely to reduce their value then there isn’t much downside to taking whatever you can get for them right now.

    143. KnickfaninNJ

      You guys are arguing why we should be happy to see Porzingis go and I am not arguing that. I’m simply saying we didn’t keep him, so we need more good players to be good and that will probably take a while. So I’m going to watch a lot more terrible Knick’s games, more than I want to.

    144. thenoblefacehumper

      Yeah, if someone wants Kevin Knox we should trade him. I’d probably do it for literally any first round pick.

      I think you’re overrating his reputation “around the league,” though. Most GMs can read a basketball reference page. If the best offers available are second round picks, it probably makes sense to just see if he can get better. What’s there to lose, games?

    145. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      @THCJ Mitch is a crazy good asset and if he holds up for more playing time even with conservative improvement I think him alone without the negative players gets you to 33ish wins. 35 if everything goes perfect. Dot and probably Trier project to be above replacement. Vonleh Kornet and Allen on cheap deals would be value and any improvement would up the win total. DSJ probably projects to replacement or higher, pencil him in for at least backup minutes. Everyone else was net negative so you have the cap, exceptions and vet minimums to get efficient, positive players; I think if you do it right and Mitch and whatever big production guys you bring in stay healthy, that gets you to the playoffs in the East. It doesn’t even require getting rid of the low likelihood to improve lottery picks (yes they’re young but all evidence points to bust), it just means you can’t play them if they’re hurting the team in games unless it’s garbage time. If you think that plan is likely to reduce their value then there isn’t much downside to taking whatever you can get for them right now.

      The unbridled optimism combined with the “5 simple tricks to minimizing replacement-level players on the roster” makes this a very difficult read for me.

      All we have to do is this:

      1) Mitch plays more minutes and remains one of the best defensive players in the league, as well as being an uber-efficient dunking center.

      2) Stop playing the bad players. Trier, who was a terrible player last year, is not among them. Dotson, who also played like shit, is not among them.

      3) All of the players listed above play out of their minds, since if they play anything like they did last year, it’s another 17-win team.

      4) Put Knox and Ntilikina into a literal trash compactor and grind them into dust. Stop thinking about the absurdity of benching two players with five total years left on their contracts — just stop playing them! You’ll be a 35-win team in no time

    146. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I’m simply saying we didn’t keep him, so we need more good players to be good and that will probably take a while.

      It could have been sped way the fuck up if the Knicks had traded the #3 pick for the #8, #10 and #17. Maybe they end up with #8, #17 and #35. It could have been sped up if the Knicks had chosen to announce to teams that they were out of the FA sweepstakes and would rent the next two years of their cap space for all of the trash floating around the league.

      Let’s say that the Knicks get the #8, #17, #35 picks in this year’s draft, and then they pick up a late lottery pick, two 20-something firsts and an early 2nd rounder in next year’s draft for taking on some big contracts over the next two years.

      In sum:

      Option A

      2019 Draft: 8, 17, 35
      2020 Draft: 5, 15, 20, 25, 35 (from Sixers), 40 (just for kicks)
      0% chance at signing Kyrie/Broken Durant/Kawhi

      Option B

      2019 Draft: R.J. Barrett
      2020 Draft: 5, 35
      20% chance at signing Kyrie/Broken Durant/Kawhi

      Which roster do you think would be waiting longer for those holes to be plugged?

    147. chriskZIPCODE

      What are you going to get for Knox if you trade him now that’s got more upside than he does? I doubt we’d get a first round pick that wasn’t lottery protected.

    148. KnickfaninNJ

      I am happy we have Barrett instead three middle to late first round picks.

      If you negotiate with other teams by announcing your total strategy in advance you will get taken. It’s too soon to be taking stuff into cap space in return for picks. Let the other teams come to us. Let free agency begin first. Most trades to reduce tax bills are actually made near the trade deadline, which is a long way off.

    149. swiftandabundant

      The angst on this blog today is at an all-time high!

      Everyone take a deep breath. The Knicks haven’t done anything monumentally stupid since Perry took over. Don’t fall for the sports media hate on the Knicks. Even if we strike out on free agents, we are in a good position going forward. Perry has been very consistent in his message about building the team slowly, not taking short cuts, setting the franchise up to be good for a long time, not a short win now window. Maybe some of the A plans are now in danger because of the KD injury but I trust Perry.

      Until we do something really stupid, we should all maybe…relax?

    150. Name is Bron - James Bron

      What are you going to get for Knox if you trade him now that’s got more upside than he does? I doubt we’d get a first round pick that wasn’t lottery protected.

      You have to fold him and other NYK players/picks in a trade to land a young above average starter (or a player you think will be that). Not so simple. Don’t like Beal? Try Knox/Mavs protected pick/OKC pick for Lonzo or Knox/DSJ/1st round pick for Lonzo.

    151. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      The angst on this blog today is at an all-time high!

      And you’re here to speak for Team Realist, right?

    152. Ben R

      THCJ – First off I think Barrett is much better than 8+17+35. With those picks we get probably Reddish, maybe Clarke but I don’t think that’s who we would have drafted and some 2nd round flyer. I would much rather have Barrett than that haul. As for future picks, we could still make those trades but I don’t think there are many bad contracts left to take. Who is looking to clear space Houston, Portland, OKC? Anyone else? All those picks look to be pretty bad. Houston is not giving away assets to move Capela they want assets back as for Gordon or Tucker maybe but they have enough value they can probably be moved for free, Adams on OKC will probably net them an asset, so that leaves Bazemore who we could probably get a very late 1st to take off of Portland’s hands. Looking around the league I don’t see a bunch of contracts with one year left that we can take to gain draft picks.

      Anything longer than a year isn’t worth it unless the pick is in the lottery. Too much changes too quickly in the NBA so clogging up your cap for two years isn’t worth a late 1st round pick.

      What other cap trades do you see? I think the opportunity to take contracts this summer has mostly passed and we were still very much in the running for a then-healthy Durant when most of those trades were made.

    153. GoNYGoNYGo - youth be served

      @1 – After a long day at work, when I finally get home, sit down and relax and see that post…

      Step #1 – If we could do this, oh yeah. I’ll give up $35M now for 2 #1’s. (I thought you were headed in a good direction.)

      Step #2 – Hard no. More like WTF? Actually, I would call that the worst move EVER by a GM in the history of all sports, all time, by far. I’m understating.

      Step #3 – We can get them, or comparable players, at half that price or even at the minimum. They barely have value over replacement players (VORP). Vonleh: 0.9, Kornet: 0.5.


      Thanks everyone for the advanced stats on Randle. You’ve got me convinced that he’s a stat compiler. However, I do believe in his 3pt production but it makes him the exact type player that I don’t want to invest cap money in. The defense is the issue.

      I hate to say it, and I doubt they will, but Knox and Ntilikina have to make giant strides in their game this year. So far, they have been really bad picks. If anyone wants to point a finger at why we suck, that’s why. Do any of you think KP would have left if we hit on both of them?

    154. The Honorable Cock Jowles

      I wouldn’t select Cam Reddish with the #60 pick. Any desire I have for the #8 pick is predicated in the assumption that he would not be taken. Hell, if someone wanted him that bad, I’d let them trade up for him.

      If you think Mills and Perry would take him at #8, you should have zero confidence that they will ever turn this team around.

    155. rama got that Fizdale Magic

      If you negotiate with other teams by announcing your total strategy in advance you will get taken.

      That’s not actually true. As someone who negotiated for a living for many years, I can say it’s all about leverage. Sometimes you have greater leverage in being open and public in your intent – that brings more people to the table, which creates competition, which creates the leverage. Sometimes, as with the KP trade, you keep information confidential, as the disclosure weekend your position. From my POV, saying we’re open for business in terms of cap space would be the better play.

      As said, one thing I’ve found reassuring is Perry’s negotiating ability. He is solid.

    156. DRed

      A thing I think we’ve all been overlooking is we have to spend something like 50 or 60 million on players to reach the salary floor. It’s one of the reasons I’m not that opposed to overpaying for a solid vet for a year. We have to spend money.

    157. swiftandabundant

      Jowles, I’m here to speak for team everyone needs to calm the fuck down and take a deep breathe.

      Seriously, people are doing that doomsday thing on this thread today and it ain’t healthy. Until Perry does something monumentally stupid, we should probably at this point believe him when he says he wants to build the team up the right way, not take short cuts and set the team up for long term success. Rome wasn’t built in a day and focusing on past mistakes by past regimes is stupid. Perry has been very steady since taking over. We didn’t trade away everything for AD or Chris Paul. We have cap space, draft picks and a lot of young players. This is what people have wanted for years and bitching about the fact that he didn’t trade the number three pick down for some lower picks bc you personally don’t like RJ Barrett is nitpicky at best.

    158. BJ

      @THCJ Based on the evidence there is a higher likelihood of Mitch being a star next year than Frank or Knox being productive. You keep saying 17 wins. A REPLACEMENT LEVEL TEAM will have more than 17 wins! You have to be actively bad to do that. Cutting bait on just Knox and frank and filling their minute at replacement level does a lot of the heavy lifting. Trier and especially Dot were close enough to replacement to give them an age related bump to be playable next year since we’re paying them anyway. This would be a pretty close to guaranteed increase in wins from last years team. If they play like they played last year it’s still an improvement over 17 wins just by not playing frank and Knox who were way worse per minute. Who cares if we have cheap players under contract for years, if they are not productive and they aren’t earning playing time, don’t play them. If you don’t think they can earn more time from limited minutes and practice performance, how exactly is giving them more time going to make them better assets? This thinking is exactly the kind of greater fool nonsense that you were mocking for free agent acquisitions!

    159. GoNYGoNYGo - youth be served

      About that negotiating ability. I need to rant about friggin drive time radio. Francesa was speaking as if the Nets rumors about Kyrie and Durant were just surfacing today and he basically said that failure to sign either of them for the Knicks would be a disaster. So I turned to the other station and LaGreca and company were saying how “the Knicks needed to get a 1st round pick” for KP. And then they added, “Why couldn’t the Knicks just keep him”. They also didn’t seem to know that KP’s threat was to sign with a Euro team. Sometimes you just want to pull the hair from your head. I wish I had some left :(

      Perry has done very well, IMO, The KP trade was a huge test and I think Perry made out like a bandit. First, he removed a cancer and avoided having to overpay for an oft-injured player that hasn’t done squat and hasn’t competed on the court since February 2018. Second, he got a 21 year old point guard that was the overall #9 pick. He also got two more 1st round picks. He also got an expiring contract of D’Andre Jordan who, unlike Kanter, tutored Robinson. Third, he cleared two awful contracts. What could he have possibly done better?

    160. geo

      sit two of our recent lotto picks next season and we are guaranteed at least 18 wins next year…book it…

      oh yeah, who’s to say (changed lottery odds be damned) that we won’t be trying to tank next season…yeah baby, give me more knox, frank, mud and mario…all season long…

    161. Brian Cronin

      A thing I think we’ve all been overlooking is we have to spend something like 50 or 60 million on players to reach the salary floor. It’s one of the reasons I’m not that opposed to overpaying for a solid vet for a year. We have to spend money.

      I wouldn’t worry about the salary cap floor. Worst case scenario, they can always just pay the “penalty,” which is just paying all of the players on the team a bonus (however much it takes to get to the floor divided among all of the members of the team). The Sixers once didn’t hit the floor and everyone on the team just got a bonus. It was funny, since Jason Richardson was hurt, but still getting paid decent money on a previous mid-level contract he signed with Orlando before they traded him to the Sixers and then he got a bonus on top of that!

    162. geo

      As someone who negotiated for a living for many years,

      wait a minute rama – i thought you was out there rocking out for a living…don’t tell me you got like a real job :), and, still can play music too…that shit is just not fair…

      some of you here are just way overachieving in life…slow down please, you’re making the rest of us look bad…

    163. heavencent35

      Player A: 6.8pts, 1.9Ast, 4.4reb, 41%fg
      Player B: 12.8pts, 1.1Ast, 4.5reb, 37% fg

      We knicks fans wants a rebuild but too impatience for it. We dont want to groove our your flawed players but willing to trade our future for mediocre player.

      Player A is this season mvp during his rookie season. Certainly on of the worst for rookies.
      Player B is our Kevin Knoxx

    164. Brian Cronin

      Player A is this season mvp during his rookie season. Certainly on of the worst for rookies.
      Player B is our Kevin Knoxx

      Win Shares/48 of .031 for Giannis
      Win Shares/48 of -.030 for Knox

      BPM -1.8 for Giannis
      BMB -6.0 for Knox

      VORP 0.1 for Giannis
      VORP -2.2. for Knox

      Even as a raw rookie, Giannis was a decent defender, which buoyed his overall stats. Knox was….less good at defense.

    165. Early Bird

      We’re in the same position we were in after trading KP–a good one. At the time people generally thought that adding a young DSJr was a good flier, grabbing two future firsts were valuable, and receiving cap flexibility was beneficial. Objectively, no trades, additions, or subtractions have been made since then with the exception of our draft picks. Our average draft position was below #3 RJ Barrett, so the Knicks came out better than expected. In short, the only reasons for the current pessimism is (1) you think KP is a superstar or (2) the myth of KD and Kyrie built an unreasonable expectation. The Knicks are in a good place. Remember how you felt after the KP trade, just look at the longterm and our future first rounders.

    166. heavencent35

      Another thing- what we need to do is get someone who is good in player development and scouting.
      Create superstar. Dont get second tier.
      I honestly think KD have a chance but we need to have a solid presentation to get him.
      KD is an interesting case. He dont need championships and money. He already have that. He is also getting a lot of dollars from Nike.
      Sell to him to win in NEW YORK. Choose your partner. Give him powers. He is our best solution second is just suck and get assets/pick improve our players.

    167. bobneptune

      Capela would have to be turned into an expiring contract for 2019-20 and return more assets with him. Gordon can either be waived (if he’s affecting the tank) or traded to a contender who needs “instant offense” (haha).

      I’m not sure why you have to move Capela right away if Windhorst is correct. He is as good a value of production versus salary as there is in the league.

      Willis Reed and Walt Bellamy played together for 2.5 seasons before the perfect trade came along….

      However…. after Horford and Kyrie leave, Boston might certainly be interested in Capela and they hold picks plus Memphis #6 top7 6 protected this year and unprotected next year.

      That Windhorst deal might be the best overall play after Durant got hurt…. it would still leave you with a lot of cap space left over to do other things with…. like ask South Beach Pat if he’d like to dump Dragic and Whiteside to make a run at T. Harris…. or the clips need a landing spot for Gallo after they land Kawhi…. options abound.

    168. The Infamous Cdiggy

      I get that Knox was baaad last year, but I don’t think it’s healthy to obsess over it. He was a rookie, and within the suckitude were glimpses of a potentially decent NBA player. And I’m damn sure not trading him along with multiple 1sts for Bradley Beal. No way.

      @164 speaking of not trading 1sts, why at this point would we give up a 1st for Lonzo Ball??? I’ve said previously that right now I believe he’s a depressed asset: someone you try to get for relatively cheap. Like, if NOLA kept their 4th pick and NYK wasn’t sold on RJ. If there was a way you could convince the Pels to reunite Zion with RJ by trading down one spot and insisting that the price to do so was Lonzo.

      But anyways… I think what the flattened lottery odds showed us this year that the “dreaded” 30-win 10th-seed isn’t an automatic sentence to a mid-lottery pick anymore. Moreso, it depends on how those 30 wins were attained: If we get to 30 wins because Knox/RJ/MitchRob/Trier (hell, even Frank) all took significant steps forward, I’ll gladly take that and then take our chances in the 2020 lottery.

    169. Brian Cronin

      Yeah, if they’re willing to take on contracts for picks, there are so many different options out there. They have so much flexibility. Let’s hope that they were just being disingenuous when they said that they were not interested in doing deals like that.

    170. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Step #3 – We can get them, or comparable players, at half that price or even at the minimum. They barely have value over replacement players (VORP). Vonleh: 0.9, Kornet: 0.5.

      The better stats (BPM, RPM) more or less say they were average+ players. VORP is sensitive to minutes played which affected Kornet. Also you don’t appear to understand the VORP scale or meaning of replacement player. You may want to read up on it especially since you’ve been posting for a long time on a stats-oriented blog. Here’s a list of players with a VORP comparable to Vonleh’s this past season: SGA, VanVleet, Lonzo, Rubio, Reggie Jackson, Kyle Anderson, Otto Porter, Winslow.

      Noah and Luke are also young players. Average+ 23yo players are not min guys. It’s hard to read the market for them but I would offer up to 5m/yr for each if that’s what it took.

    171. djphan

      #8 and 17 wouldn’t have netted anyone good… that would have been quite disastrous in fact… there’s really no two combination of players after coby white got picked that would have equated to rj…..

    172. djphan

      the kp trade was great…. certainly having cap space this year matters altho i think i disagree with most on how to spend it… but not giving kp a max was probably the top reason that we won the trade… that we got some picks and cap room is a huge bonus….

    173. Z-man

      Frank Isola gave me a good laugh this AM talking about Kawhi’s meeting with the Knicks. After it was mentioned that the Raptors went 17-5 without him, Isola said that Perry’s pitch should be, “Hey, Toronto won 17 games without you, but so what? WE won 17 games without you too!”

    174. Early Bird

      I still think we should sign Durant and tank next year. No idea why Durant would want to be here, but whatever. Do a 1+1 and try to recruit a 2nd guy or convince KD the kids will get it together soon. We start building a contender for KDs 2nd year and get another high draft pick. KD gets to leave if we don’t get anyone.

    175. JK47

      I gotta say, I’m not really into the idea of maxing Durant but it’s a hell of a lot better option than a lot of the other Plan C’s and Plan D’s I’ve been hearing.

    176. Z-man

      Look how desperate Houston is to free up space to make a move. Look how desperate the Celts are now that their plans have gotten all mucked up and Toronto and Milwaukee have passed them by. This is the time for patience and opportunism. We will certainly be able to acquire some good players on value contracts, or some picks. Please don’t blow this opportunity, it may not come again for a loooooong time.

    177. Brian Cronin

      Abso-freaking-lutely. They are so well poised here. It’s driving me nuts trying to figure out where they’re going to go next with all of this. I want to have hope here!

    178. Z-man

      I’m shocked that anyone on this lofty site sees Randle as a smart option. He is exactly the kind of player you don’t want…he will be overpaid and doesn’t fit today’s game at his price. You want to load up on shooting, versatility and defensive utility. Randle is a one-dimensional power forward who is a willing but shitty passer and who has shot under 30 percent from 3 until last year when he shot a whopping 34%.

    179. Bruno Almeida

      Yeah, if this Butler to Houston story has any traction, Perry needs to get on the phone with Morey asap. Take Capela off their hands and flip them to someone else for more assets, or even Gordon if he has a market elsewhere, which he should have. As long as Harden is great their picks will suck, but they will have a very old team that probably won’t last past 2021-22.

    180. BigBlueAL

      Marc Stein reporting if Knicks miss out on the top FA’s they might be willing to sign Cousins to a huge 1yr deal. But of course they would lol.

    181. Brian Cronin

      I have no idea why Philly would be interested in helping Houston poach their free agent in exchange for draft picks. It seems bonkers.

      Actually, if you’re Philly and Butler tells you he isn’t returning no matter what, doesn’t Capela/Gordon/Tucker seem like a better offer than the picks they’d get for those guys?

    182. Hugo Busto

      Marc Stein reporting if Knicks miss out on the top FA’s they might be willing to sign Cousins to a huge 1yr deal. But of course they would lol.

      would they even be able to flip him at the deadline?

    183. Brian Cronin

      They’d be halfway to Boogie/Harris, which I think we all decided was peak Knick, right?

    184. DRed

      Boogie was always destined to play for the Knicks at some point might as well get it over with.

    185. Dough Chew

      Knicks are not extending a qualifying offer to Mudiay.

      That’s good.

      Knicks are also not extending a qualifying offer to Kornet.

      That’s bad.

      It’s going to be that kind of offseason, isn’t it.

    186. BigBlueAL

      I think we all know where this is headed, they assemble a 30 win team full of guys on 1yr deals leading to the 8th pick in the 2020 draft and next summer we’re right back where we are now.

    187. DRed

      Kornet might be better than Cousins next year so that’s not a particularly encouraging move.

    188. Name is Bron - James Bron

      Boogie will be taking minutes from Mitch. How is that a positive? The end game might be to sign Boogie after the year to a 4-year deal and trade Mitch.

    189. Hubert

      It seems like Houston is auctioning Capela, not paying to get rid of him. It would probably take a 1st round pick to acquire him.

      I like him, but I’ll pass.

    190. Name is Bron - James Bron

      So we’re looking at a starting lineup of Randle, Boogie, RJ, DSJ and Knox? What station carries the Nets? Might be time to switch.

    191. djphan

      i’m kind of shocked that folks are so resistant to acquire young players who have actually played and proven themselves to be some kind of good in this league… for the anti-randle guys…. if randle was in this year’s draft what pick would he have gone? what pick would you have picked him? surely in the first round right? probably even in the top 10 too?

      even if you do count the money that randle might get… are you acquiring the approximate pick that would have gone before him for that kind of money?

      i think there’s a lot of folks who have a particular vision of what a basketball team looks like and how each player is supposed to fill out a role…. and i think that’s fine… but that’s very ‘in the box’ kind of thinking…. and you really only should get to that point when you actually have talent… and talent can come in all shapes and sizes and a lot of times it can work in ways you don’t expect… that’s one of the main ways you can outperform… if you think like everyone else… like every position needs to hit 3s kind of thinking… then you’re artificially restricting the kind of team that you can build… and you’re very likely to underperform… because other teams have better access to that kind of talent because they already have it….

      there’s lots of ways to succeed as a team in this league…. but it really all starts with talent…. and i’m not saying randle is a sure thing… but he’s def not a sure bust… i think he’s shown enough that he can add something to a team and he’s young enough to add something to his game also….

      this old way of thinking of stockpiling assets by renting out cap space and acquiring picks… that’s very novel… but that’s also a very dated concept that you’re gonna fleece some team this way… who’s giving up a top 10 pick? meanwhile i’m pretty sure randle would have been a top 10 pick in this draft also… and russell for that matter.. and that’s the reason why they…

    192. Brian Cronin

      I can’t get too mad at a one year deal

      I’d be more mad at a one-year deal. What would be the point?

    193. Brian Cronin

      Knicks are not extending a qualifying offer to Mudiay.

      That’s good.

      Knicks are also not extending a qualifying offer to Kornet.

      That’s bad.

      It’s going to be that kind of offseason, isn’t it.

      With the amount of cap room that the Knicks have available, qualifying offers are effectively meaningless. I wouldn’t take the lack of QOs as meaning anything, in and of itself.

      Now, once they start renouncing guys, that’s a bigger sign that they’re moving on from that player.

    194. DRed

      What’s the point of any of this, really? The front office doesn’t know what they’re doing. I’m just happy with anything that doesn’t fuck the team up long term

    195. Silky Johnson, Fleet Admiral of the Tank Armada

      If this Boogie stuff is true Perry is incompetent and ought to be fired immediately. But since it’s Dolan’s Knicks, he’d be replaced with someone even worse!

    196. Brian Cronin

      What’s the point of any of this, really? The front office doesn’t know what they’re doing. I’m just happy with anything that doesn’t fuck the team up long term

      I totally get where you’re coming from on that, but I’m not quite yet prepared to simply root for them to not fuck things up that badly. Not yet, at least!

    197. danvt

      Wow, this was a long painful thread to get through.

      I’ll add one thing that hasn’t been said…

      The recruiting pitch to NY and specifically NYK is this. There are more Knick fans than there are any other fans of any other basketball team. The parade would be the biggest ever. Every city has Knick fans. It PISSES ME OFF that mainstream media treats us like a punching bag as if we don’t pay their salaries. There are more smart NYK fans, more dumb ones, and would be more bandwagon jumpers than any other team. Win a chip for NY and it would be like nowhere else. Yes, there’s a difference. Kawhi Leonard will be remembered as a guy who rode Tim Duncan / Manu/ Parker and who beat an injury ravaged GSW. Deserved or not that’s his legacy. If he comes here and wins one as “the straw that stirs the drink” he enters the conversation for best ever. Come on Perry. Get Alec Baldwin on the phone. This pitch has got to be spot on.

    198. Brian Cronin

      Two-time NBA Finals MVP Kawhi Leonard will certainly not be remembered as the guy who “rode Duncan/Manu/Parker.” There are few players that need to win a championship with the Knicks to cement their legacy less than Kawhi Leonard.

    199. Bruno Almeida

      Signing Cousins to a one year deal is literally the most pointless use of cap space ever. It would be an incredibly dumb move, but one without far reaching consequences, just utterly pointless. Unless they think he can be flipped to another team in the deadline, but then why the hell wouldn’t an interested team be looking to add him now as a free agent instead? It could maybe sorta kinda work if they give him minutes and let him get a ton of ppg and try to flip him, but I’m more scared that he will get a lot of ppg and then Mills and Perry will re-sign him for a terrible contract.

    200. Early Bird

      The report on considering Boogie is being blown way out of proportion.

      (1) The Knicks saying they’d consider Boogie is a completely meaningless statement. If they didn’t “consider” him they wouldn’t be doing a good job, even for a 1yr max.

      (2) Signing Boogie for the max presents a decent opportunity to flip him to a contender and pick up some young pieces/picks. With the Warriors running on fumes/injured the NBA is wide open for the first time in awhile, we will see teams be more aggressive in pursuing players at the trade deadline.

      (3) The flattened lottery odds made a huge difference this year. Even if we do tank and get the worst record our average projected draft slot is not going to net us a surefire franchise changing player.

      (4) League perception of team talent matters. The league is currently being driven by stars who choose where they want to play, making yourself a more attractive destination for free agents is a good idea. Players want to play for teams that show they’re already good or starting to create some buzz. For example, if the Knicks had a better record than the Nets last year do you think Kyrie (and therefore KD) would be as likely to sign with the Nets?

    201. Bruno Almeida

      @217

      Besides, it’s Kawhi Leonard we’re talking about. There’s not one great player who seems to care less than he does about this sort of narrative, he has given no indication ever that he cares about his legacy at all or people’s perception of him.

    202. Early Bird

      Completely unrelated, Ignas Brazdeikis reminds me of a stronger Mindaugas Kuzminskas which isn’t a bad player. Mindaugas would always get great post position after a cut to the basket and then miss the layup. I don’t think Ignas will miss the layup. On the other hand maybe my brain shouldn’t be watching youtube highlights of draft picks at 1am and just decided to come up with another white guy with a weird name…

    203. Bruno Almeida

      Who also coincidentally happens to be Lithuanian…

      I would still love if someone could explain to me why no top players ever wanted to be traded to the Knicks or sign as free agents when we have hovered around 29-33 wins many times this decade, and why that would change now if we reach that level again next season. Like, what has fundamentally changed so that a strategy that has never worked for this franchise will work now.

    204. danvt

      I said

      Deserved or not that’s his legacy.

      He’s a legit great player but winning a championship in NY would dwarf anything he’s accomplished so far in terms of his legacy. That should be our pitch to free agents.

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